From the EQlive forums : http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Crier&message.id=68&no_redir=true

Greetings all,

We wanted to pass along an update on our work on EverQuest classes. We are still gathering data from many of the logs that we have now enabled, however discussions are still occurring and progress is being made. We wanted to answer a couple of questions in the meantime to keep you all up to date.

Why do you need all this new data, don't you log everything anyway?

While many things in EQ have always been logged, others have not. When we decided to begin the process of evaluating class roles in groups, we found that some of the data we wanted was not available, so in our last update we added many new logging features. We found that some of the logs had to be adjusted to get us better information and we have made the necessary changes and plan to push them live with our next scheduled update. At the loggings completion, we will have mountains of accurate, server gathered data that will need to be digested and organized.

The EQ team stated that they wanted to evaluate group roles, what does that mean?

We hear from some classes in the EQ community that in a group situation, they are less desirable than other classes. That's not a fun position to be caught in when you are playing a game that relies upon groups for most encounters. This prompted the team to sit down and took a hard look at what roles there are in a typical group (Tank, DPS, Healing, Debuff, Crowd Control, Pulling, Buffing are some examples but there are others) *Note that these can be broken down into sub groups and debated endlessly, however for the sake of this discussion let's settle on these for now*. We then identified which classes filled which roles and numerically identified how well they filled that particular role. After this exercise, it was plain to see that some classes filled several roles well and others performed in a secondary or tertiary role only. This came as no surprise to us, but we felt it was an important first step to formally identify where we felt classes are today so we could get a better perspective on how much each class would need to change to help bring it in line with the other classes in EverQuest.

Does SOE consider every role to be of equal value to a group?

As the game has changed and evolved, the roles have shifted in their value. For example, the advent of longer buff timers means that a buffer might not be as needed in a pick up group as a DPS class is because the buffs can be acquired by players in a safe zone long in advance of actually reaching the content that requires them. This is another tricky part of this puzzle that we are sorting out. We are looking at the group roles and intend to make sure that each role is necessary.

When do you plan to release your conclusions and make changes?

When we have conclusions, we will release them. The end result of all this may be a few minor tweaks, or it may be some vast sweeping changes. We are far too early in the process to state what will be changing. We will make any changes slowly and with your full awareness. We will put things on test for you to mull over and consider and gather your feedback as we do. This is very much a cooperative effort between our community and our development team.

The EverQuest Team

Brenlo Bixiebopper
Community Relations Manager

I really hope they aren't doing this "remove long timers from buffs" thing. I don't think this is the way to go... so many AAs spent on prolonging buffs. Now in raids we're gonna have to be buffing every 5 minutes?

How will this help druids get groups? The only classes i see that could gain something from this are the Holy Trinity and Shamans. Sure shamans could get the help, but what about others?

Then DPS classes will get screwed. And i know most like rangers have a tough time getting groups because of other dps classes like rogues. Wizards will be screwed too.

So...remind me again what the Top 10 lists were for?

So...remind me again what the Top 10 lists were for?
That's what i would like to know.

I really hope they aren't doing this "remove long timers from buffs" thing. I don't think this is the way to go... so many AAs spent on prolonging buffs. Now in raids we're gonna have to be buffing every 5 minutes?

Think the only class that is really hurting from this (from what I read on other boards) are the enchanters and then mostly it's KEI.

The length of KEI vs the later has always seemed out of whack to me.

As a cleric the only buff spell line that has a long timer is the conviction line. I dont have an issue myself with that being reduced as long as the base doesn't drop below the MGB timer :P

Edit: quotes > me

Max buff durration should be 90 min before extentions this way it is above the MGB timer and you cant rely on having them in your group unless you have that class.

Brenlo mentioned a "debuffer" role..I really Hope this isnt where they are going to shove us :(

Acceptable ressurection spell. (90%+ and low recast time.)
Change KR to 400 mana

These are both reasonable requests and would make Druids a lot more sought after in groups.

Appease the clerics by cutting out the obscene recast times on their DD's.

Brenlo mentioned a "debuffer" role..I really Hope this isnt where they are going to shove us

That's exactly what I heard when I saw that. Thought it was just me and my paranoia. Sad to say, every time they say the are doing tweaks, etc, I always brace myself for a Druid nerf.

Acceptable ressurection spell. (90%+ and low recast time.)

I really don't want a rez spell...I think that call of the wild is extremely useful, however, being stuck in a rezzing position, to me, would pretty much suck (and would maybe be pushing a bit too much on our class)

Lowering the mana cost on KR would help, however, that doesn't change the fact that in some places KR isn't held back by mana consumption; its held back by the amount it heals. And never crits.

I would personally prefer to veer away from debuff upgrade(s).

Having only played a druid since July 2000, and only reached level 63 after much time spent on various alts...

If they want to do class balancing..then I pray they are looking at balancing us Druids as far as our traditional Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-None role over all the levels. I have seen the numbers from others regarding dps, healing rate, nuckage numbers vis-a-vis the Master classes and I see a steady decline in our ranking from 2nd or 3rd in a particular ranking to near bottom as we progrgess in levels.

Traditionaly, as I see it, our role as a Druid was to fit in as many class roles as possible. Never the best at anything, but good enough that we could fill in a role if needed and solo if we were not. This JoT role has been erroded over time to an extent that we are no longer the prime secondary class that we once were. I really do hope that role is revisited and remade, as I did like being able to fill in with groups in a variety of ways. :twak:

other people would not really notice less mana on KR.
make KR crit and give us 1.75 sec cast, 2.25k heal for like 750 mana.
be nice if they could bring exodus down to 30 mins. that get out of jail card is very useful in MPG/RS/almost anywhere. or at least consider getting cast evac down to 5 seconds.
updating our buffs would be nice, too. pr/dr/mr, anyways.
if they make the debufs worthwhile, i'm game for it. if they are mega-mana and highly resisted, no thanks.
something that might be kinda interesting: how about a spell line that let's us modify aggro? cast on a tank it makes him seriously threatening or cast another on a caster and their aggro goes down? make it last for 2-3 ticks.

worst case, how a new spell called Nature's Call... oh nevermind

cast on a tank it makes him seriously threatening
SK's have this spell already.

I would say Riftseekers is the single most challenging zone in the game right now for a druid to heal in as main healer where single grouping is practical. If the mob is slowed - its not a big deal to heal there. So... imo lowering cost on KR is more important than upping the HP healed. I'd love to have both, and who knows whats in store for exp zones in DoN, but for now I'd just like lower mana on that.

As for as resurrections - I think not being able to exp rezz is the single most defining thing that prevents Druids from getting exp groups. If the goal of all of this balancing is to make all classes desirable for group and raid situations then that is definitely something they will have to look at. Take a survey of non-priests and ask them if they had to pick one aspect of abilities that makes them prefer a cleric over a druid for group situations what it would be. I'm guessing 7/10 will say ressurection, 2/10 will say wtf - I'd rather have Druid, 1/10 will say something about heals.

Exodus is a nice get out of jail free card - but the majority of people just don't care - at the end of the day - if they are dead - can you get them their exp back? Thats just how people think.

I'm guessing 7/10 will say ressurection, 2/10 will say wtf - I'd rather have Druid, 1/10 will say something about heals.

I'll post a poll on my guilds boards and see what comes up...because I highly doubt that ressurection is the main reason that people like grouping with clerics more than druids.

SK's have this spell already.

great. let me cast it on a warrior.

hrm, I think I will go post a poll on my guild's board as well. I'm curious now.

Clearbrooke
67 Druidess of Quellious

I play a ranger, cleric and druid and have access to a shaman. Thus my outlook is a bit slanted, as I can always log on my cleric to xp rez folks if needed. I would take a druid healer any day, as long as that person knew how to play a druid as healer, some folks don't. But that doesn't mean that they aren't good at playing their class in other aspects though. Main reason I normally pick a cleric over a druid isn't for rezzes, as I stated before my outlook is somewhat slanted, but for the ability to HoT and group heal/HoT. IMO, that is the main difference why I would pick a cleric over a druid. But normally, it doesn't matter to me, as long as each player is skilled at their class, cleric, druid or shaman, or in a pinch a Paladin, ranger or beastlord for healing.

other people would not really notice less mana on KR.
make KR crit and give us 1.75 sec cast, 2.25k heal for like 750 mana.
be nice if they could bring exodus down to 30 mins. that get out of jail card is very useful in MPG/RS/almost anywhere. or at least consider getting cast evac down to 5 seconds.


Uhhhhhh, I think everyone would tend to notice a 200 mana difference in a spell and would surely feel it if they are chain casting it. As for evac, it's called "Get Quick Evac II and beneficial spell haste, or just get Quick Evac III."


--edit --

As for KR, yes I do believe the mana need to be reduced to 400 (or at the bare minimum 500 and allow it to be affected by Healing, mana reduction, and spell haste Foci), heal for more, and have the ability to crit. Being placed in a heal chain now a days (slightly rare, but still happens) blows b/c none of
what I said actually happens -_-;...

--edit 2-- (Im at school right now and in a hurry damnit)

I would sell my soul for a decent group heal and/or HoT.

A decent heal over time and group heals would be great. I like debuffing too. I dont really want a rez, you can usually find a rez eventually and I already spend enough time running around porting people. Besides, isnt that what pallies are for?
If harmony worked indoors, my world would be golden.

I find that druids are ok at my level around mid - late 60s, and a lot of fun in the early levels, but at around 50 until the mid 60s there is a long slow useless period where no one wants you in a group. Back when soloing was good experience it was survivable if you liked to solo, but now I see druids quitting the class or leaving for other games during their 50s. To me, finding a way to boost the desirability of druids at that point in their game is critical.

They should just re-do the classes in EQ1 to match the Fighter / Mage / Scout / Priest archetypes they have in EQ2. It's working very, very well. My druid never lacks for invites to groups.

Uhhhhhh, I think everyone would tend to notice a 200 mana difference in a spell and would surely feel it if they are chain casting it. As for evac, it's called "Get Quick Evac II and beneficial spell haste, or just get Quick Evac III."


let me clarify: the other members of the group would not notice... i was thinking more in terms of changes that would be apparent to others. ok... argue that over time they might notice due to less med time but nothing as whiz!bang as a nice rapid heal.

on evac: point taken. i just looked up quick evac 3 and see it's a 50% reduction. thanks!


--edit --

As for KR, yes I do believe the mana need to be reduced to 400 (or at the bare minimum 500 and allow it to be affected by Healing, mana reduction, and spell haste Foci), heal for more, and have the ability to crit. Being placed in a heal chain now a days (slightly rare, but still happens) blows b/c none of
what I said actually happens -_-;...

--edit 2-- (Im at school right now and in a hurry damnit)

I would sell my soul for a decent group heal and/or HoT.

i like being a very good back up healer that nukes decent, too. heck, i can even melee some. i don't really want to be a cleric. some mana reduction would be nice on KR, crit would be really good. i don't care much for it being too much bigger and i really don't care to have a HoT or group heal. i am not saying these are invalid for all druids, simply that i don't really care for them myself: if i wanted to MH i would have rolled a cleric.

i think druid is going to be the hardest class to re-envision as many of us have very different styles of play. trying to decide which side of our abilities gets increased (heal/nukes/buff/utility) is going to be difficult at best without overpowering us, and will ultimately lead to one of the sides disliking the result.

They should just re-do the classes in EQ1 to match the Fighter / Mage / Scout / Priest archetypes they have in EQ2. It's working very, very well. My druid never lacks for invites to groups.

Aly, I haven't tried EQ2 yet and I doubt I will anytime soon. Correct me if I am wrong, but really... aren't all the priests pretty much the same? At the end of the day, same DPS, mostly same heal ability?

I have been playing WoW. OMG Sony! Let me shapeshift to bear and cat form!

i don't really want to be a cleric

Nor do I, cause being a cleric blows. I want them b/c if I am gonna have to play the role of a cleric, I want some goddamn decent heals.

I'd rather be a wizard than a cleric.

I'd rather be a wizard than a cleric.

Amen to that, at least Id be getting to do something that doesnt bore me to tears.

Amen to that, at least Id be getting to do something that doesnt bore me to tears.


Hehe how do you us think clerics feel :P To be honest healing is only really fun when it's hard content and your being pushed. But that's very rare because most exp groups just want to grind and not challenge themselves, which is a shame :frocket:

In standard exp groups the mobs tend to be dead before clerics can do anything with there mana except heal :tongue:

Maybe it's me getting old and jaded but healing used to be a lot more fun and engaging in places like OS and chardok when you had to watch your mana and pulls. Now its just pull a single, kill it and repeat. Yeah it might be the best way to get AAXP but I personaly don't enjoy it and only do it when I have to (or when I'm with friends. Grouping with friends > any xp gain).

they should have given us a new CH with oow or Don , and i think druid rez should have been 90%,

and what about druid only primarys, anyone else realize the last dru only weapon (wich is our last 1hs) was blade of the tempest from Mith marr in POP..i think thats BS almost every other class has got a class only primary with Anguish drops and such, i miss verant, they used to have cool toys like all-all robes and cool clickys where are all those with new expansions, to me eq has taken so many steps backwards since sony took over it makes me sick

anyone else realize the last dru only weapon (wich is our last 1hs) was blade of the tempest from Mith marr in POP

Orb from time: druid only, range, clickable swarming death
Hammer from new VP: clicky long recast heal
Weapon from txevu...etcetcetc.

orb isnt a primary, and even still its from 5 expansions ago, vp hammer isnt even worth the mana to port to skyfire to go to Vp to get, and there is no druid only weapon in any god zones

..........."remove long timers from buffs" ..............How will this help druids get groups?
It will just intice melees to box druids outside groups more often =p


Anyways, i think you guys are looking down the wrong path -- that being healing. The best way to balance the class would be to raise our effective dps. All priests have roles (in a nutshell) -- cleric = 100% healing, shaman = slowing + healing, druid = DPS + healing. Making us a better main healer wont help druids get a better group anymore than it does now, because clerics will always be better. When someone groups a druid in a dps slot they know that group dps is gonna go down but risk will go down with it. A lot of the times thats a risk people are willing to take. If they improve nukes by making higher damage and/or lower mana cost we will be much more appealing. (i say nukes instead of dots because if your xp group is taking long enough to kill mobs to make dots worth casting than your group just sucks)

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=69119

Thats the Druid only weapon from Tacvi (last zone in GoD). I personally detest items that are useable by 1 class. Single class useable items ought to be quested 100% of the time.

orb isnt a primary, and even still its from 5 expansions ago, vp hammer isnt even worth the mana to port to skyfire to go to Vp to get, and there is no druid only weapon in any god zones

Unfortunately the effect on http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=69413 is more useful than our epic 2.0

i stand corrected..i want one 8 P

Hehe how do you us think clerics feel :P

I don't care, you chose cleric, you live with cleric.

If they want to do class balancing..then I pray they are looking at balancing us Druids as far as our traditional Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-None role over all the levels. I have seen the numbers from others regarding dps, healing rate, nuckage numbers vis-a-vis the Master classes and I see a steady decline in our ranking from 2nd or 3rd in a particular ranking to near bottom as we progrgess in levels.....I really do hope that role is revisited and remade, as I did like being able to fill in with groups in a variety of ways.

/nod After all, this is why I chose a Druid in the first place.

I don't care, you chose cleric, you live with cleric.


Nice attitude you have there, very :duel2:

True to my word, I did this poll on my guild board.. and the results are in!

15 voted, total. 11 prefer clerics for better heals, 2 for rezzes, 1 for buffs, and 1 would rather have a druid. Not exactly mind boggling results. A few neglected to vote, because I didn't specify a zone. Examples they gave were MPG, they would prefer a cleric; while WoS, a druid healer is fine. *shrug*

Clearbrooke
Druidess of Quellious

Think the only class that is really hurting from this (from what I read on other boards) are the enchanters and then mostly it's KEI.

The length of KEI vs the later has always seemed out of whack to me.

As a cleric the only buff spell line that has a long timer is the conviction line. I dont have an issue myself with that being reduced as long as the base doesn't drop below the MGB timer :P

Edit: quotes > me

This will hurt druids as well... be happy clerics, cause with this you will forever be needed in groups.

There is no way Steeloak will compete with Conviction, and there is no way people would rather get a druid in place of say an enchanter or shaman (which are buffers) even in the role of secondary healers.

orb isnt a primary, and even still its from 5 expansions ago, vp hammer isnt even worth the mana to port to skyfire to go to Vp to get, and there is no druid only weapon in any god zones

Yes there are.... Kelp-Covered Hammer (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=69119) from Tacvi.

And the VP one is new since the revamp... but both Tacvi and new VP still suck

I'm guessing 7/10 will say ressurection, 2/10 will say wtf - I'd rather have Druid, 1/10 will say something about heals.

Why do you prefer a cleric as healer in group over druid?
Better healer
59% [ 13 ]
Exp ressurrection
9% [ 2 ]
rather take a druid
0% [ 0 ]
other (please post) reason
31% [ 7 ]

Total Votes : 22

This is based on mainly people feelings in RS, and some in MPG. For a main healer, no one would prefer a druid. Many people do love having druids in the group, hence other. Pretty much everyone who said other wanted a cleric in the group as main healer, so the druid can be a "jack of all trades". Here are some quotes I liked from the discussion:

I am a big beliver that a Druid can do just fine as a main healer but you are loosing the biggest benifit of the class which is their flexibility. Druids shine when they can help out in many situations such as healing, DPS, buffs and anything else they can think of at the time.
Hot. cleric can mitgate damage with pious and sch cast just prior or just as mobs start beating on me. this mitagation can make all the differnce tanking a nasty.
The only situation in which I would not group with a druid as main healer was in a zone where CH is necessary because of the massive DPS output of the mobs i.e. RS
Druids can hold their own for healing, especially with the 7-8k crits I've seen recently, but like I said, A druid main healing in a high end zone such as PG or RS without a shaman slower to help with heals or a paladin tank is usually a dangerous situation.
Druids blast heal is very good, but their group healing capabilities are deeply lacking.

Woe is them, cause i have main healed RS :P and with paladins /sk tanking ><. But once again, people feel more confortable with clerics :P

I kinda like the idea of a useful debuff line... what about a really substantial ATK debuff that actually lowers mob dps by a noticeable amount? Say, 20% lower dps overall, due to an increased number of missed rounds. Stackable with slows. Wouldn't hurt slowers since well, slow is still more effective and stacks anyway. Would allow druids to MH better in the newer zones, yet not as good as a cleric. Would also mean that a druid could make a great contribution to a group that allready has a cleric, since said cleric might be allowed to do more with his or her mana than chain heal.

Much rather see a good debuff than improved heals really, since I'm not a cleric. Just feels like the way this game is evolving there should be room for more techniques for damage avoidance rather than pure dps and healing power.