View Full Forums : LDoN First Day Impressions


Panamah
09-09-2003, 04:39 PM
We took a "kill N mobs" assignment in Mistmoore underground.

First off, the zone just looked wonderful. The eye candy was very appealing. The mobs were cool, and my favorites were the Tasmainian devils. :) You'll understand when you see them.

We completed it plenty of time. Group is Velious/Luclin raid level guild. We had SK, druid, Enchanter, rogue, monk all level 65. For some reason, our ranger couldn't zone in, even though he had downloaded all the files.

So we used the extra half an hour after we won to look for some chests and to find any "named" mobs. We finally found a chest and someone did something and set off a nasty, nasty poison dot which killed us. I don't know how they did it, whether they clicked on the chest before I got to inspect it...

Problems.... there were a few.

For some reason, the druid was dotted with poison for almost the entire adventure. There was one room where every pull he got some kind of poison on him. I couldn't detect any traps in the room, don't think he was getting aggro from any mobs. I have NO idea why he was getting poisoned. It was a problem because he kept draining his own mana with heals on himself. He didn't have Radiant cure.

I think RC is going to be really, really necessary in LDoN. If you don't have it yet I think you should make it a priority.

Another problem was that the traps reset VERY fast. Groups are lazy about moving along, I'd disarm a trap, and it'd reset in about 30 seconds or less. That was annoying.

Druid did just fine for the healing, except the poison problems. :) He was low or out of mana quite a lot though.

Oops, forgot some stuff...

<strong>How to Get Started in LDoN</strong>

Turns out, you don't just show up at the Wayfarer's camp wtih your lunch bucket and shiny face. You have to do some background stuff first.

When you zone into PoK, someone will whisper some information into your ear about someone you're supposed to meet. I kind of liked this, made me feel all rogueish for a moment or two. I was told I had to find someone in Neriak in a particular restaurant.

If you're KoS in your home town, don't panic, there are two alternate places you can go that are neutral, just take note of them.

So, I went off to find them. Neriak is made of 3 zones, I had to go to 3rd gate, the last one. And the contact was in some obscure restaurant. Fortunately I had the presence of mind to scour my maps and find the restaurant because Neriak is a really nasty zone for finding things.

You have to hail them, they tell you stuff about the Wayfarers which you should not. Or check your journal later on (alt-J I think). They'll tell you stuff you'll need to tell one of the Wayfarers.

So after you finish that conversation you have to go find some Wayfarer's and speak to one of the folks mentioned in your home town. You use the info you collected from the person you just talked to, to answer some questions. Once you answer it correctly, you'll be given a stone which you can bind onto a charm, like the one from PoP. You take it to the Water trough (which was in the camp I went to) and open it like a tradeskill container. Pop in the charm, pop in the gem and combine them.

Not exactcly sure what this does, but I think from this point you're being tracked in the Adventure point database. Now you can join a group where everyone else has gone through this rigamarole and get yourselves and adventure.

There's also a Magus in each camp you can hail him and he'll tell you how you can be transported to another camp. Basically you just say the name of the zone to him, like "Everfrost" and, voila, you are sent there. Ah! Love the easy travel. :)

Panamah
09-09-2003, 05:01 PM
Oh yeah, drops.

Well... the augments that dropped were pretty uninspiring. +stats or +hitpoints, all slot 1 type. /yawn

We got 3 of them on our adventure. One +6 int, one +12 hit points, one +6 str. One earring dropped which had decent stats, but you wouldn't replace a Solstice earring with it. Really, it was twink or bazaar material for most folks.

So, the drops were pretty underwhelming... about what I expected.

Cantatus
09-09-2003, 06:13 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There's also a Magus in each camp you can hail him and he'll tell you how you can be transported to another camp.[/quote]

The Magi won't teleport you until you do the quest, that's one of the <em>huge</em> perks of it.

borreny
09-09-2003, 07:45 PM
I'm not extremely impressed so far. I felt really rushed due to the time limit, and didn't feel like I was able to actually enjoy the crawl.

Panamah
09-09-2003, 07:48 PM
I think people will feel rushed at first, but as they get more AA's, better equipment and such they'll be able to be more leisurely about it. It's like, remember how hard PoP seemed at first? Now it's pretty ho-hum... here comes another mob that hits for 500.

Xitix
09-09-2003, 08:19 PM
The drops are fine, a couple vendor/twink items and basic augmentations. The points you earn can be used at the camps to buy a pretty wide variety of items including spells, augmentations and regular gear.

Northerner
09-09-2003, 11:13 PM
My first shot at a LDoN was in Mayong's realm as well, although with slightly differing results.

First off, we took level 63-65 folks in, a Paladin, Rogue (myself), Wizard, Druid, Mage and Necromancer. Most of the crowd, with the exception of the Wizard and myself, were low-AA and likely bazaar geared with a little sprinkling here and there. Of course this group was horribly lacking in haste and buffs but hey, it seemed like it was worth a shot.

We blew the adventure by perhaps five minutes or so and eventually wiped in a rush to pull the final target. (Mental note, Druid-buffed a doubling 800 hitter can take me out pretty fast when the healer is down.) In retrospect though, I know it was doable with even the group we had and would likely be pretty easy if they dumped me and grabbed another caster that would not be as hurt by the lack of haste. The necro was ample for CC with the undead (I scouted pulls of course) and the Druid was just fine for heals even without exceptional mana regeneration, lightly augmented by the paladin who chose to stun for aggro more than heal.

I'd think any old group that can handle even PoV stuff would easily romp through a 'normal' LoDN adventure with time to burn. Mobs hit 300ish for the most part and even semi-reckless pulls were rarely more than 3 at a time. Toss in Lull or any CC and the yard trash is pretty much a joke and low HP to boot. We played around a ton in pretty much forcing ourselves into a loss.

Initial impressions are positive and certainly very positive for Druids as a class. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the generalists are the better classes to have from what I have seen so far. Bards, Druids, Beastlords and Shaman should shine for these situations nicely. Although I will admit I'd have swapped the Druid for a Shaman in a heartbeat but hey, haste is hard to compensate for as a melee ;)

After the first forray we split and I joined a number of folks lfg for a couple of hours. Most were Warriors, Rogues and Monks, although I'll be the first to say that a couple of hours is hardly representative and there is nothing new about melees hanging out waiting on healers.

cheers,
Celeris
(and Faeril, long-retired Druid that keeps tempting me)

AmonraSet
09-10-2003, 12:12 AM
+12 hp seems pretty reasonable to me given that this is very early in the expansion and I think that the good drops are intented to be purchased with adventure points.

There are about 20 equipment slots which can each take an augment, so that an extra 240hp if you use nothing more than these basic +hp items in every slot.

DemonMage
09-10-2003, 12:20 AM
I had a blast in the adventure I did today (didn't get a chance to do anymore, yet, unfortunantly). Group of 65s, one 63, took an adventure in Miraguls Dungeon, kill 53 in 90 minutes. Hehe.. we didn't know how to pull up the adventure window to check our progress, so at first we were worried we were doing horrible (it's alt+v, by the way =-p). Turns out we were doing quite well. The group was druid(me =-p), chanter, cleric, shadowknight(the 63), mage, monk.

We ended up finishing after about an hour, or maybe 70 minutes. Only found one named, which was right after we finished up the adventure, Ravaged Holgresh something or other. Dropped a 20/25 pal/sk hammer, with some so-so stats and RL 60. Also found a +6 sv poison aug. Coin was anywhere from 0 - 18pp, occasional gems were found too.

Didn't run into too many traps on the way, there was one part where we got an emote about blades coming out of the wall, but I didn't notice anyone taking damage. And then one hallway had some black gas that filled it and put a DoT on. Though, at the end when we were checking out some barrels, we did end up getting Plague Mites on us... hehe.. that took FOREVER to cure with counteract disease.

Unfortunently didn't get to explore a whole lot after the adventure was complete, since a couple people in the group needed to head to a raid. My only real complaint during the crawl was that slow/mez agro was VERY VERY high, and everything the enchanter tried to charm was immune, which really really sucks. I didn't have any real problems as a druid in there, tossed a couple of backup heals, but was hardly needed most of the time, punched Spirit of the Wood twice, and mostly ended up nuking, so it was all good =-p

nieros
09-10-2003, 01:13 AM
Well we started out by doing the MM kill 55 mobs in 90 mins job.

Group made up of all 65's from elementals ( but 2 new guys to the guild so wouldnt call them elementally done up ) - Me (druid), Beastlord, Mage, Sk, bard, cleric.

We finished it with about 25 mins to spare and wandered about the dungeon for a bit.

Dungeon surroundings looked good and some very very cool looking mobs in
Nothing special droped at all, but made about 100pp each.

Moved onto everfrost. Did a 'remove this person from X'
We thought it was an escort thing.

Lets be honest, this place looked the daddy.
We battled our way around it and took random turnings then 'it' happened.
Mud emotes!!!!!!
'The room shakes as a terible presence enters the room. Shrieking fills the air from the east'

Oh... yes.

Talk about atmosphere!!!!

We cleared the room to find a yellow con ( to 65 ) enc with her pet (sic!).
It was at that point when she got all angry at us we dawned 'remove' ment kill, not escort =P

So anyway, we Killed her and she droped a crappy 2hp.
Didnt hit to hard and was infact a bit of an anticlimax after all the buffing and pulling ;)

Did that one in about 45 mins.

Decided at that point to head back to MM.
Again with the kill X in Y time, this time 60 in 90 mins.

We raced about the crypt ( last time it was all tunnels ), and as we got near the end we got to a junction....
'Echos of pain and suffering carry on from the south, whilst to the east you can hear the slow chanting of a ritual. A low dull light seems to draw the living to the west'

AWwwwwwww man.
Go east, no south, no west... argh stuff it, follow me east and we work are way around it.

Move up and well.... I aint going to ruin it all, but each wing had more emotes and a AWESOME atmosphere. MASSIVE kudos to the guys who did this!

We cleared the entire dungeon on that one cos it was too much fun to leave anything up. Completed the mission in under 30 mins, and wiped out the entire place about 15-20 mins later.

Only loot we got worth mentioning was a +6sv poison augmentation.

We did make about 700 pp each though! :)

Brilliant expansion, I love it. ( mostly cos I get to pull the dungeons again !)

- nieros

Geddine
09-10-2003, 01:56 AM
Have only done 1 dungeon so far, was a blast. We didn't have a slower or CC person (Druid, Cleric, SK, Mage, Wiz, Ranger) very unusual bunch actually. Even had a rogue leave the group before we got going becuase he wouldn't go without a slower.

We did a "gather items" quest as they are rated as easy and for most of us it was the first time. Well we did swimming well to start with didn't cruise through but didn't have any problems either. Biggest problem I guess we had was getting people to move, there was generally 1 person who was lagging behind. But we had 10 mins to and 2 items left. Some thought we had plenty of time but we killed 5 mobs and no drop, got down to 4 mins and 1 items to go. At this point people started to panic, 2 thought we wouldn't make it and the rest were shouting out to nuke hard and hurry up. This was were chaos ensued as the group got split up in what was the next target, one 1/2 went right the other left, both pulled at the same time, the mage died. During the fight some command was brought back and the group re-assembled and got the mobs organised. The timer ran out 15 secs before the mob fell and it had the last items on it. Actually both mobs in both directions had the item so either one would have done, but becuase the group split it didn't happen in time and we failed.

But it was a blast, some members didn't feel like going around cleaning up after that so we ported out then.

greggo rumbletum
09-10-2003, 03:56 AM
loving it....

BobolinkWareagle
09-10-2003, 05:06 AM
When you are plowing through with no CC (and especially no slow) group
DSs are uber. Some mobs did enrage so need to watch for that.

Remi
09-10-2003, 06:54 AM
We did 5 Adventures last night. Our group was 65's, sk, chanter, mage, cleric, rogue and druid, all pre-elemental/VT. We tried the different difficulty levels, 4 different themes, and all 3 types.

Did Deepest Guk first and our assignment was to kill 60 mobs. Atmosphere was excellent, very much an improved Guk with the vines sticking out of the walls. As we neared the end, we kept finding dead ends with no mobs and had to go searching for the mobs we missed during our crawl to complete our task. Added to the tension and fun, because of the possibility of losing if we didn't find the rest of the mobs we needed. Druid tracking saved us here! 1-0

Next we tried Mistmoore's Catacombs. Again, another awesome looking dungeon and atmosphere. This time we only had to kill 50 mobs, though not sure why. But, we did it easily, almost too easily. 2-0

Okay, now we are brave and cocky with 2 wins under our belt (and on top of the leader board). Tried Takiz Hiz on hard and failed that one without even a prayer of success. Hard is really hard! lol Lost our top spot on the Leaderboard to a Time enabled guild who was sitting at 3-0 now, while we were at 2-1.

Tried Takiz Hiz Assasination on Normal and it was a blast. We were right on the edge of success or failure by the time we found our victim. Mediocre belt dropped from a named, which had Improved Damage 4 on it that was priest usable! Didn't win it though. :p It was fun to actually use Destroy Summoned spell as most mobs were summoned types, thought I might wish it did a bit more damage for a level 65 nuke. When our target spawned, we would receive messages about a commotion, leading us toward the right direction that was a really nice touch. This one was close as we got to and killed the target with only 5 mins to spare. 3-1

Jumped to Miragul's Menagerie and a rescue mission. OMG Pink!!! And that heart beat in the background! We had lost our rogue and replaced him with a monk. We made a few wrong turns (e.g. taking the long way rather than a shorter route), and missed our rogue for his earlier scouting ahead. I also had to fire debuff here to get our fire nuke to hit for full. We were only one room away, when our monk got excited and moved ahead of us, agroing mobs and training us with a few more adds on top of the 3 we were already fighting. Wipe out! :D (For some reason, the monk ended the night with a 0-2 record. :p Go figure.) 3-2

All in all it was a blast. Everyone was really using most of their skills. Cleric was pacifying, nuking, meleeing and healing. Chanter was hasting, slowing and doing CC. Sk was an awesome puller and tank, keeping agro. Mage would use eye and rogue would sneak to scout ahead as well as do lots of damage. And I was nuking, curing, healing, tracking, and debuffing (and evac'cing in emergencies). Everyone in our group felt vital and needed to our success! :) Experience was okay too as I left the evening with almost 2 AA's, and for the first time since Kunark, I walked away with some decent PP to add to the bank.

I loved how we were quizzed in the Wayfarer's camp about what our homeland NPC said. People actually had to read the script! The attention to detail in the dungeons really added to the over all experience, both in appearance and sound effects. From the lit candles in Mistmoore (I turned down gamma a bit tho to add to the atmosphere here), to the heart beat in Miragul's. And the mobs were awesome looking, each fitting in within the particular theme!

On the down side, the new level 34 spells for opening the chests were miserable failures. We didn't have a single success using them all night. I also thought the kill X number of mobs type were alot easier than rescue and assasinate types of Adventures, so people just wanting to wrack up points will do those over and over, rather than try the more challenging types. I was happy that I was in a group that wanted to try all the different themes and types rather than wrack up points.

On the positive side, we kept waiting for the notice that the servers were going to go down and it didn't happen. For such a major expansion with a brand new type of dungeon, kudos to SOE for it being so stable of a release!

All in all I give this expansion an excellent rating. It has something for everyone. Every class can feel needed in a group, and every level can enjoy it. It accomodates both the casual and full time player. It accomodates the Elemental plane geared and the not so uber geared. Each dungeon I saw was wonderfully set up, in appearance, atmosphere, as well as mob placement. And, it's a great change of pace from raiding every night or mindless xp'ing. Well done, SoE! :)

Demasia
09-10-2003, 08:01 AM
My regular group had anxiously awaited the release of LDoN because of the "dungeon crawl".

In short, two of us are more than a little peeved that we just bought an expansion where we cannot use our Class AA Dire Charm and all but one of us are trying to figure out since when did "dungeon crawls" all have a timer on them. We really believed that LDoN was going to be true to the classic dungeon crawling, where a group of any makeup can complete an adventure using tactics that are complimentary to the group's strengths and weaknesses and progressing at a pace that is challenging, smart and enjoyable for the group. The warrior in our group has flat out stated that he will not do the LDON "trials" and would not have purchased the expansion had he known it was an expansion of timed trials. I will not buy LDoN for my other two accounts as I fully intended to do. Our group cleric loves the expansion and I imagine that we now need to find a new cleric for our group after having invested so much time in leveling him up. Considering the number of players who assisted with the beta and that the end result has timed trials and disabled Dire Charm, I am honestly wondering if after four and half years that EQ has evolved such that it's target audience and I are no longer in the same group.

Mashesta
09-10-2003, 08:30 AM
"The warrior in our group has flat out stated that he will not do the LDON "trials" and would not have purchased the expansion had he known it was an expansion of timed trials." ~Demasia

You know, you could treat this expansion that way. Just ignore the timer and enjoy the new zones without having to compete with other groups. You can get decent loot, cash, tradeskill items just doing these dungeons. Sure, you'll have to get a new adventure every 90 mins but if ya just don't worry about the "winning" so much I think you would enjoy this expansion more.

Without considering that they didn't add a lot of raid content for the uber guilds, I think this is the best expansion to date. The adventures are fun, you don't *have* to have a cleric or any specific class to enjoy them. A druid could do CC just fine in these adventures and heal just fine.

The loot I have seen drop is subpar for me, but I think a pre elementals group of people would find some decent upgrades for themselves.

Geddine
09-10-2003, 10:45 PM
The timed dungeons was mentioned at least 3 weeks before release so it really shouldn't be a shock to you.

The actual length a dungeon stays active is 2 hours, which is plenty of time just to romp around and enjoy the crawl at your own pace. If your not worried about points don't rush. You may not finish a dungeon but you didn't have to fight to get a camping spot either.

Iilane SalAlur
09-11-2003, 12:57 AM
I finally managed to find time to do my first dungeon crawl in mistmoore caverns today and I must say it rocked. We started out with Pal, Bst, Enc, Rog, Wiz and Dru (me), all level 65. Our wizard went LD twice and the rogue had to leave 70 minutes into the adventure so towards the end we were down to just 4 of us.

There were many room traps along the way, thankfully the effects were easily countered. Chest traps however were very nasty, easily able to kill everyone within 3-4 ticks. I'ld suggest fiddling with them after your adventure has completed. Also, memorize your best heal, remove curse and cure spells before fiddling with them. Even then they were huge mana drains as RC1 didn't remove the effect and SoTW1 wasn't enough to keep the group alive. I had to chain cast nature's infusion in between casting pureblood on everyone.

Kudos to whoever designed this mission and mob placement. The first 10-20 mobs were either immune to runspeed changes or highly resistant to snares. None of the mobs didn't flee at low health so after a while I stopped casting snare since it doesn't help with anything except add aggro onto myself. Little did I know... the ONE mob that flees at low health is the one that guards the door to the final boss room. That one single mob managed to aggro all 5 mobs in the boss room before we could even blink. My heart really got pumping on that final encounter. Thankfully the 4 of us managed to scrape thru with some creative crowd control and good mana management. Managed to win the mission with just 3 minutes to spare too.

Kaledan
09-11-2003, 01:51 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
If your not worried about points don't rush.
[/quote]

If SOE are smart, they will add an option to select a 'trial run' mission, with a 2 hour timer, no point reward, no message about success or failure, and no affect on the leaderboard.

I wouldn't use it, because I am rational and can see that the 'failure' message is meaningless as long as it doesn't rollback all the exp, loot and fun I gained.

But irrational people pay SOE money too, so as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, no reason not to cater to them.

soru

Tiane
09-11-2003, 02:05 AM
I wish people would pause before making statements like "This is a great expansion!", "Best expansion ever!" and such... it's been like a day... you cant judge it already, and there are bound to be unforseen effects from the design of it. Give it a couple weeks before you fall in love with it and decide it's fantastic. It's not the flash and first impressions that makes a great MMOG, it's the playability.

Tia

Panamah
09-11-2003, 05:54 AM
Yeah, it took me a good 4-6 weeks before I realized how cruddy PoP was. Even really 3 months before I completely understood the impact of how lousy the design would be for my play-style.

Even though LDoN looks great now, will it be enjoyable for 6 months? I'm optimistic, but cautiously.

Pacal Sidhe
09-11-2003, 07:03 AM
I did two dungeons on day 1 with my 52 necromancer. My impression is that they are pretty basic. It really reminded me of AnarchyOnline missions. Personally I thought the MM dungeons plain...just a big tunnel. The dungeon maps are going to get old quick.

But, the exp was very good. Loot was almost worthless on our crawls, but I did get a +4 int augment which I put into my 6ac 65hp ring for fun. My group was a Pally, warrior, cleric, chanter, shaman and necro.

We all used all of our skills. I was really wishing for 12 or more active spell slots in this. We were rushed and it took some time for the group to get out of the "med-up-then-pull-singles" mentality. There is not enough time to med or to do elaborate single pulls. We got wipe out on traps. Assist key is your buddy. Combat was the same ole same ole.

All in all I liked it. In every dungeon I think a chanter will be required which bites. Druids are useful and can handle healing in normal dungeons, but I prefer a cleric and a druid. Emphasis is on verstatility. So give me a druid over a wizard (tracking + heals + evac + DD > DD + evac). Get classes that can multi-role and get as much inate healing as possible.

My basic starting group:

Pally (tank, heals, buffs, rezs)
Chanter (CC, tash, haste, some slows, some DD)
Cleric (heals, pacify, rez, undead DD)
bard (thief skills, heals, mana regen, CC, some DPS)
Necro (DPS, pet, backup CC, mana regen, heals, undead DD)
druid (heals, DD, snare, summoned DD, tracking, evac)

This setup really covers every base but it is low on melee tanking. Necro and bard really have to manage unmezzed extras well. The trade off is lots of mana and hp regen while standing or on the move. The key is keep moving and complete the dungeon ASAP (ye who can do 4 dungeons in 3 hrs is better off than those who do 2 in 3 hours).

No for the negatives. I found it really easy to get a group on day one. Day two I had ZERO luck. No pickup groups and not enough peeps in guild my level even want the expansion to reliably get guild groups going. Although I think necros and druids really really shine in LDoN, I worry that it will be the same old problems finding groups. Usually my quild picks up the slack here, but not enough of them have the expansion to do that right now.

Second, scanning the LFG tool, I found very few players actually looking for LDoN groups. Not good. A group-only expansion only works in everyone wants to group there.

borreny
09-11-2003, 07:36 AM
After my experience with a gathering quest, we tried an assassinate one last night. If I had done this the first night, I wouldn't have been as frustrated. Failed the gathering quest with only a few pieces left to go. Took the same group to assassinate, and completed it with plenty of time left.

Gathering definitely seems unbalanced.

What really pisses me off though is the fact that no pre ldon gear can use any of the good augments like the focus effects and such. pre-ldon gear (with the exception of Time) has type 1 slots, and weapons have type 4. All the focus effect augments are type 2 and type 3.

Autumn10
09-11-2003, 07:44 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Turns out, you don't just show up at the Wayfarer's camp with your lunch bucket and shiny face. You have to do some background stuff first.[/quote]

That was my biggest problem with LDoN the first day. I like being able to go to an expansion and start using it right away. I don't think the player should have to go through any amount of hassle to dig in and explore, and unfortunately there's a small amount of hassle to get started with LDoN.

Once you do though it's fun as hell. I have only been to Rujarkian and Mistmoore dungeons so far. I was very impressed with the MM models. Some very cool looking mobs in there. Mummies, shadows(a la D&D), and the tasmanian devil things that Panamah mentioned are just some of them.

The dungeons themselves are also pretty cool although they're not very elaborate. Pretty linear but some of the objects are pretty neat. The interactable(?) objects leave a lot to be desired too. The mana power-ups help but are too FPS-like for my tastes. The pet ones are more or less useless unless attached to a melee and even then they don't add that much DPS from what I've seen. Of course the ones with mobs suck, hehe.

Traps can be really tame to really nasty. Ruj traps are very weak compared to MM ones. I was in my first MM dungeon last night and my party hit a trap that forced me to hurry up and use SotW or else we might have wiped. Really bad stuff.

I haven't been impressed with the rewards so far at all. I'm talking from a 'close to elementals' perspective though. I figure most people aren't going to get a lot of out it as far as items for awhile unless you're a non-twink. There are some usable things but mostly yawners. The base items you can buy are certainly not an upgrade to raiders but maybe they will get better with the raid dungeons or 'hard' ones. Nothing that I would really use as an upgrade. I don't feel like buying something to upgrade with augments that might take weeks or months to acquire either.

Druids do just fine in these dungeons(I think I have only had a cleric along in 1 out of the 6 I have done so far, same for an enchanter). Slower helps of course(bah), but so-called 'less than perfect' groups do work, which was a big relief. The normal dungeons aren't very hard. Only had one wipe out and that was because the tank got adds he didn't bother to check for when pulling the boss. :mad: We had a necro though that saved the day by FD'ing, dragging corpses and res'ing the cleric. Bosses hit for over 700 and the trash stuff was like 200 or 300 plus.

I would have to say overall that this has been a lot better expansion than PoP and has infused a lot of fun back into the game. I also love the fact that you don't have to fight people for camps or share mobs. The crawling has been fun, but if there's one thing I would change it would be the rewards. I will wait and see what's down the road though before I pass final judgement on the loot. I'm not sure of the shelf-life of LDoN either. Even with the handful of themes and different layouts it may get old faster than other 'normal' expansions, but here again we shall see. Overall I would say it's a very good expansion and give it a thumbs up. Now go fix the portal in South Ro you programmers!(or whoever does that stuff)

vowelumos
09-11-2003, 08:01 AM
I think a lot of the positive feedback comes from two things;

It worked on day 1, almsot unheard of
It is a lot of fun

There are few if any other expansions that have been as much fun on the day they were released.

Tweil
09-11-2003, 08:13 AM
I think the other thing this expansion has over the rest is there is no major learning curve. Unlike Kunark, Velious, PoP everyone knows exactly what is expected and where to go. There is no need for exploration, where should I hunt, FM cycles to learn. You just get your stone and go kill.

Demasia
09-11-2003, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The timed dungeons was mentioned at least 3 weeks before release so it really shouldn't be a shock to you.[/quote]
It really shouldn't shock anyone that many people do not spend time surfing the web for info about EQ much less an expansion in beta. For those of us who do and heard about the timed events, I recall seeing the question asked as to whether all of the adventures were races against the clock and the answers were all guesses ranging from yes to no.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The actual length a dungeon stays active is 2 hours, which is plenty of time just to romp around and enjoy the crawl at your own pace. If your not worried about points don't rush. You may not finish a dungeon but you didn't have to fight to get a camping spot either.[/quote]
We really don't know what is plenty of time for someone else to enjoy a crawl at their own pace, do we? Why should every adventure be a race against the clock in order to succeed in the mission?
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I wouldn't use it, because I am rational and can see that the 'failure' message is meaningless as long as it doesn't rollback all the exp, loot and fun I gained.
But irrational people pay SOE money too, so as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, no reason not to cater to them.[/quote]
I'm sure you realized that calling others "irrational" is an insult. To someone else, the success or failure of an assigned mission and the related adventure points are more meaningful than the exp and loot. There is nothing "irrational" about being disappointed that such a promising expansion fell short of one's expectations.

The pitfalls of the timed trials have been adequately expressed over the last year, yet the euphoria of a new expansion seems to have wiped the memories of the developers and the players right now. People will form groups that are most likely to succeed in the time alotted to maximize their reward of adventure points. If there was no clock determining success or failure, then people would form groups that would be more inclusive of all classes and make it work. This isn't a new arguement and that is the reason I think it is a failure on the part of SOE to learn from past mistakes or recognize the value of player feedback.

Despite my feelings about Dire Charm being effectively disabled for an entire expansion and my view that LDoN should not all be timed trials, I have still enjoyed doing the dungeons thus far. I enjoy that a group is alone in a dungeon, like the heroic exploits of the Judge's Guild and D&D adventurers. As it is though, success or failure (rewards) is determined by time rather than the players deciding if they are willing to move a little slower so that a less efficient group makeup can accomodate adding someone who wants to go regardless of class and with more leniency towards level, gear and AAs. I also find the decision to tag mobs as uncharmable and the decision to not include DC in the entire expansion to be a nerf to those classes who are denied the use of those abilities. Because I enjoy some characteristics of LDoN doesn't mean I shouldn't voice my opinion about where LDoN fell short of it's promise and my expectations.

Autumn10
09-11-2003, 08:44 AM
I don't like 'beat the clock' stuff either usually(absolutely hated the PoJ trials) but I think in this context it works. You're not as rushed in LDoN as PoJ trials and I think that's the big difference. PoJ trials wouldn't be nearly as hard if they gave you a little more time. I can see where you're coming from though Demasia and if you were looking for a more leisurely crawl that you can do at your own pace then you're kind of left out in the cold. I think I would have preferred something like that too, not only for practial reasons but also for RP/true adventure reasons. I still think LDoN works given the design and intent though. Maybe they will implement the instanced dungeon more to your preference in a future expansion. I for one would also like to see that.

greggo rumbletum
09-11-2003, 08:55 AM
You dont think that a dungeon without respawns might not be a bit trivial without a the time limit?

If you want a dungeon without a time limit, try one of the 30 or whatever number that are already in EQ. They are all pretty empty nowadays.

As for the "spells should be vendor purchased" "good things shouldnt be hard to get" "its not fair" "wahh wahh" set, there is always <a href="http://www.progressquest.com" target="top">ProgressQuest</a>

King Burgundy
09-11-2003, 12:16 PM
I think the time limits are great personally. As someone who often only has a two hour chunk to play, this ensures that I can get in, get a mission done and get out without having to worry about abandoning a group.

Tiane
09-11-2003, 02:59 PM
Yeah, but how would not having a time limit (or a much longer one) affect that at all? If the adventures were still designed to be completed in 90 minutes, yet had no time limit, then whats the difference? Except that you arent forced to be constantly on the move in a 90 minute executioner trial.

Personally I do not like the time limits. Its artificial. It's not comparable to dealing with respawning dungeons, that's apples and oranges, and you all know it. I cant think of one *good* reason that would negatively affect people if these missions had longer time limits, other than "well if you dont like it, dont play it."

Not all groups are dps machines, nor should they be. Yet the vast majority of these missions rely on having a dps centred group.

Of course, then there's the leaderboard. Another indication of they psychology behind the people who developed this expansion. It's all about competition to them. They probably really liked the exe trial, and are in the camp that believes if you had trouble doing it that "you dont know what you are doing." Anyone who's been forced to repeat that trial knows there's far more to it than that, but besides being forced to recruit dps classes, you requrie a hefty helping of luck to complete it successfully. Sound familiar?

To me, this expansion is looking like an expansion full of exe trials. A few months from now, the marginal non-dps classes (yes druids are in this group) will fall behind yet again in ldon grouping desirability. The essential classes will remain essential, and indeed have been given new abilities to reenforce that.

Its funny that absor came here and asked for ideas on how to improve druid group desirability, was handed several dozen good ideas, and we wound up with yet another wolf form heh... another sign that the current crop of devs are still clinging to their most favoured classes.

Time will tell, I could be wrong. But I was right about PoP, months before it was even released! 8P

Tia

King Burgundy
09-11-2003, 03:27 PM
Yeah, after some conversation I can see that would work. Removing the time limits would affect me adversely, but not enough that I couldn't get around it, and a lot more people would probably be pleased. :)

Iilane SalAlur
09-11-2003, 03:53 PM
Seriously Tiane, have you tried at least a dungeon or two? I too was like you, in fact I did mention in a post months ago that I was worried LDoN would turn up to be like a series PoJ trials that you had to do repeatedly. That, and the fact that I totally didn't like the kinds of spells that druids recieve in LDoN stopped me from ordering it until 3 days before LDoN went live. I still don't like the spells. As a 65 Druid, the only one that would even remotely consider getting is Vengeance of Tunare. Compared to other level 65 classes who mostly got 2 or 3 interesting new spells, its really disappointing.

However for the first time since PoP was released, druids are versatile again. I was main healer, ghetto mezzing adds, landing clicky dots on all mobs, tracking for named, keeping DS and regen buffed (they are useful again unlike in PoP), and even occasionally nuking when I have available mana. There is no way I could have done half of all those in PoP without constantly turning into druid paste.

Gwynet Woodsister
09-11-2003, 05:36 PM
I have done two dungeons so far, one in Everfrost and one in South Ro, and I enjoyed them a lot. The first one was a rescue mission, the second one a gather mission. What I like the most is not the awards/loots, but the fact that you have to move. I can't stand standard exp because you basically stay at the same place for hours. To be honest I have barely looked at the rewards yet.

About the time limit, well I haven't noticed it much. It was normal missions, not hard ones, but time was never an issue (granted, I had some pretty decent groups), we finished both times in about one hour, and spent the rest of the time exploring. What I like about the time limit is that people who come are motivated for these 90 minutes, there won't be people going afk every 5 minutes or leaving after 15 minutes, and it makes it much more pleasant in the end. Also, it adds a bit of stress, which is a good thing.

Now, what worries me the most is that it won't always be easy to actually get a group, but I really love the expansion so far, and honestly after that I really don't feel like having standard exp groups anymore.

kEYERA
09-11-2003, 07:24 PM
totaly agree with the post above mine. a big pet peeve of mine is forming a group, getting it going, and 20 min into it someone has to go. with LDoN i know i myself, wouldn't even consder going on a mission if i knew i had to go. so hopefully this will put a end to that.

another part i like IS the fact of a time limit, you have to push yourself, no more mindless sitting in a safe spot, spliting mobs and just killing them. i am soooo sick of that. this you hav to move, manage mana, keep alert. it is toatly makeing the game fun and exciting again.

once again /cheer SoE!!!!!

and the agmentations are cool!!! how can anyone complain about ANY augmentation to gear you already had, that was already the best it could be, and now being able to add more to it? woot!! too cool!

DemonMage
09-11-2003, 09:07 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That was my biggest problem with LDoN the first day. I like being able to go to an expansion and start using it right away. I don't think the player should have to go through any amount of hassle to dig in and explore, and unfortunately there's a small amount of hassle to get started with LDoN[/quote]

What did you have to do before going on an LDoN adventure? Getting your adventures stone is completely optional. It only grants you the ability to teleport between camps, and gets you a charm augmentation that will grow as you do more adventures. Teleporting between camps is really handy, but you can just show up to a camp, and get an adventure and go with it.

Geddine
09-11-2003, 09:58 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I cant think of one *good* reason that would negatively affect people if these missions had longer time limits,[/quote] How about the challenge of it? I can speak from experience on failing a mission by mere seconds (90 minute limit not extention) that the challenge we faced racing against the clock in that dungeon was far more exciting than the next one I did which seemed a breeze and finished with 15 mins to spare. Yes they were both fun, but the one I failed contained the most entertainment for me (although the group members your with need to have the same ideals and not bitch and moan on failing).

Personally I feel the time limit is a technical thing on Sony's part. They can have 11000 instances at the moment, even increasing dungeons by 30 minutes could impact on their availablity. I think (or would hope) you'll most likely find after the thrill of the new expansion and Sony know what kind of usage they are up against, new dungeons (or the current ones) may get a slight release on this limit, most likely (or hopefully) in the 30 minute extention area eg. 90 minutes to complete mission, 60 -90 minute extention after time limit.

I believe the dungeons wouldn't have the same feel or challenge if there was no time limit to increase it. Without the time limit the focus on the dungeons would be more focussed on the loot that drops rather than the goal of completing it. Look at old dungeons or style of EQ play, each dungeon has people looking for where the best XP or Loot is, they don't really care much about where or what it is without time limits LD would be the same just everyone has their own little corner to play in.

Tiane
09-11-2003, 11:57 PM
Yes, I have done many missions. But it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see where things could head.

As for network/computer resources on Sony's end... well no... If you have one mission being used by 6 people for 3 hours, thats the same exact amount of resources as 6 people doing two 90 minute missoins back to back. It's the number of groups utilizing LDoN at any one time, not how long the instanced dungeons last. And that number will only go down from the opening day/week rush.

For those crying out Pure Genius, well, just remember that in the grand tradition of the Internet that SOE has ripped 90% of these LDoN ideas from other games, primarily AO this time around. Yes they have made some nice improvements, but there's nothing truly groundbreaking here.

As for the challenge of it... well I dont consider an artificial timer to be a challenge, I consider it artificial. It turns the entire thing into a dps race, not a crawl. I also dont find failing a mission by mere seconds to be at all rewarding (and yes it happens all too often.) I find it frustrating. And I'm not alone in that.

On the subject of druid usefulness, I do agree we're better off than in a PoP group. The dps of the mobs is low enough that regens can make a small difference, though mostly I've found it's just nice to have on for when you get hit by those inevitable traps. Also, like many of us have said here time and again, the lower hp, lower max hit, higher hit rate mobs make damage shields a more viable choice, at least on normal mode. So yeah, on normal mode druids are ok, but I wouldnt go looking for one, because death is still going to happen and that's a serious time waster unless you have a resser with you.

So again its that damned timer. If you want a challenge, set your own timer... I dont see why everyone should have to feel challenged by a timer. It's not a competition... or is it... there's that leader board. Perhaps SOE wants us to compete over that now, though the idea doesnt appeal to me at all either hehe...

And lets face it, the loot, so far, is pretty ho-hum. It looks like a *lot* of work will be required to get anything good, or combine several things into something that you might possibly wear over something you could buy in the baz for a couple kpp. If people keep failing these dungeons at a substantial rate (a friend in beta said that a 1 in 7 success rate was normal then), especially if it's due to time limits (has been every time so far for me anyway), then people will simply go back to the standard ultimate group formula, LDoN style. (Executioner Trial-style mark 2.)

As it is, I find failing a mission by a handful of minutes to simply be a reminder that I just wasted 2 hours of my time for basically zero advancement. The fun of discovery lasts only so long, and there are only 48 dungeons... seems like a lot now, but in a month? In 6 months?

Tia

Kaledan
09-12-2003, 01:09 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
So again its that damned timer. If you want a challenge, set your own timer... I
[/quote]

If you want to avoid a challenge, ignore the timer. All you lose is having to spend 5 minutes every 2 hours restarting the mission.

There are lots of different ways to have set things up, many of which would suit a different set of people.

They happen to have picked one that suits players like me (short time to play, pays full attention while playing, likes excitement and the unpredictability of winning or losing) and is not so good for players who have an open-ended amount of time to play, do other things while playing, and like predictability and safety.

Sorry, but that's the way it is. Complain all you like, but don't try to pretend that having done things in the way you prefer would not make the game worse for me.

soru

Tiane
09-12-2003, 01:44 AM
So name a specific way in which extending the timer would negatively impact your playstyle.

If you are going to complain that "oh but then my groupmates will go afk on me" well then at least you are free to choose different, more like-minded groupmates you wont go afk. Thats your choice.

As it is, there is no choice.

Down with game nazis!

Geddine
09-12-2003, 01:50 AM
I don't think this debate is going to go anywhere, this is just another version of uber vs casual, solo vs group, mellee vs caster, spells vs weapons debate which both sides are right and both sides are wrong. It all comes down to the indiviual and here you have over 400,000 indiviuals.


So lets agree to disagree please before someone looses an eye.

Kaledan
09-12-2003, 02:30 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
If you are going to complain that "oh but then my groupmates will go afk on me" well then at least you are free to choose different, more like-minded groupmates you wont go afk.
[/quote]

Apparently, you live in some fantasy world where anyone can freely choose groupmates like picking from a menu.

Doing stuff in a group is a collective choice, where other real-world people get a say.

Would you have felt better if the recent free (hateb/veksar/chardokb/solc/...) and revamped zones had been bundled with the expansion? Can you honestly say that you have already exhausted the possibilities of all those zones and can't wait another month until the next one comes out?

Or are you one of those people who doesn't care how much they have themself, as long as noone else has more?

soru

greggo rumbletum
09-12-2003, 03:10 AM
I dont do pickup groups but have had a variety of different guildmates on these things. I enjoy the timer, it suits my play style. If you dont enjoy the timer go into one of the *many* dungeons and do what you like at your own pace.

Saffun
09-12-2003, 05:01 AM
To the above druid who was using clicky dots in these dungeons that was a waste of time. Should be medding or mobs should be dying alot quiker then.

These dungeons are great for druids and our versatility.
Ive been main healer and main snarer and had a few succeses so far.
Here are some basic points of advice.

Don't do collection missions. Yes some people have won them and liked them but almost universaly everyone agree's they are the worst.

Kill the 56 mob missions are the simplest ones so if your looking for basic choose this one.

First priority in forming groups should be puller.
Pulling quikly and without alot of adds was biggest factor in every mission i faced. Was more important then anything.

Choose normal mode if your interested in point farming.
Even people that can spank the hard mode agree as they have finnished normal mode dungeons in half the time and can move onto another. Hard dungeons only give 20 more points then normal and are MUCH HARDER.

Hard dungeons have some pretty good loot but its rare.
The normal dungeons have the same loot on named. Hard dungeons have some rare loot thats fantastic but its rare.


Each dungeon can be very difrent. We have had some that were extremaly easy to pull singles with low numbers of traps.
We have had some with amazingly hard to pull rooms and about 1 million traps.
Seems very random.
Possibly dungeons are instanced using some balance on which classes are in party. Seems like it is sometimes.

Oh well have fun.

vowelumos
09-12-2003, 05:21 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>To the above druid who was using clicky dots in these dungeons that was a waste of time. Should be medding or mobs should be dying alot quiker then.[/quote]

Well group a Druid with a BL and an Enchanter and you don't spend very much time medding, so I suppose it depends on the situation. I was healer when we won in MM last night and I had to struggle to find ways to use Mana without becoming the MA.

I would over nuke and not worry about aggro whenever the BL did paragon so I would not feel like it was being wasted.

So if someone wants to use a clicky dot, it is probally not the end of the world.

RaiyaEQ
09-12-2003, 05:35 AM
I give an 8 out of 10 points for LDoN expansion so far.

I came from a hardcore raiding guild, but I've been guildless for about a month or 2 now. Anyways,

Druid is very useful in LDoN. I've completed 9 missions with 1 partial fail - didn't run the rescue victim back in time. Received partial points in that one. That's the only group I've done with both cleric and druid. The rest 8 of them - all success and with only druid as main healer.

All of the groups I've done are pick up groups. Ironically the first group that I failed had best equipped gear. But the rest of the groups are just random. DPS is your friend in LDoN. If I can't find a chanter, I would actually pick BST over SHM if I have to. BST is great when it comes to slow and dps.

Normally group set up is as follows:
Tank
Druid
Enchanter/SHM/BARD/BST
DPS
DPS
DPS

I like at least 1 rogue in group though due to the fact that they can sos and check out the route to make sure we are heading the right way no dead end to waste time etc. Ranger is nice too since their track range is a lot bigger than ours.

Overall, LDoN has been fun, I just wish one could spend points in any of the 5 dungeons, but I guess it makes sense to only be able to spend one's points at the ones that he/she has done.

Autumn10
09-12-2003, 06:10 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What did you have to do before going on an LDoN adventure? Getting your adventures stone is completely optional. It only grants you the ability to teleport between camps, and gets you a charm augmentation that will grow as you do more adventures. Teleporting between camps is really handy, but you can just show up to a camp, and get an adventure and go with it. [/quote]

I wanted to port between camps, start dungeons on my own and add an augment to my charm. To do all that you need a stone which takes a little running around.

As far as the timer issue, I think these dungeons would be a lot less challenging if it wasn't there. My guild groups haven't had any serious trouble in the nine dungeons I have done except one and that was from a bad pull. I agree that the timer focuses people and keeps things more on edge, whereas in the PoJ trial there was so much luck and DPS involved and the timer was so short that it became maddening. If you can't do these LDoN dungeons in the timeframe given then maybe Crushbone would be more your speed. :p

Iilane SalAlur
09-12-2003, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>To the above druid who was using clicky dots in these dungeons that was a waste of time. Should be medding or mobs should be dying alot quiker then.[/quote]

*shrugs* we each find our ways of balancing dps with aggro. I click Wrath of the Tempest on incoming mobs so that I don't immediately grab aggro yet am contributing some free dmg. About 1-2 second after wrath lands, I'm either casting a nuke or tunare's depending on the tank's health. I'll then med for the next mob. With FT15 + self buffs + bst buff + VoQ, I didn't run low on mana except for that nasty chest trap.

Anyway, I've done a few more adventures and I'm loving LDoN even more now. So far my best record for fastest completion of a normal adventure is 36 minutes to kill a named target in Mistmoore caverns. After that we spent another 5 minutes killing the two other named mobs for their loot. Completing LDoN adventures is easy, yet fun and rewarding. My only worry is it will get boring and repetitive too soon.

Geddine
09-12-2003, 08:26 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>almost universaly everyone agree's they are the worst[/quote]

I quite like the collect missions (they are my fav so far), so I wouldn't say universal and so far the majority of people I have grouped with have said that the rescue missions are the ones that are a pain in the butt, the rest hadn't done one yet.

Still have a problem of actually getting a group.

Demasia
09-12-2003, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you can't do these LDoN dungeons in the timeframe given then maybe Crushbone would be more your speed.[/quote]
Oh please. I haven't said anything about not being to do the dungeons in the timeframe neither has anyone else. THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE ABOUT SKILL.

<Insert offensive explitive>! Why is it that anytime someone points out a weakness in our class or fault in the game there is inevitably someone else who assumes the real problem is an issue of skill (unless it relates to our nukes)? There is no reason for anyone here to presume to be more skilled than anyone else on the boards. For those who think they are so much better than everyone else, you are delusional.

The arguements that the dungeons wouldn't be challenging without the timers are baseless. In fact, I expect to see many folks recanting their cheering of SOE for the success druids are having when a more significant number of groups advance to doing "Hard" dungeons. I wonder how many of the groups with druids as only healers are getting HoV, focus and/or symbols before entering the "Normal" dungeons even now. It is a simple matter of diminishing returns that our versatility becomes less useful as the mobs' dmg per hit increases.

The truth is that I have only been one mission that was only a partial success and that was with our 6th member having to download LDoN once the rest of us had entered. The other four adventures were successes and no deaths in any. My not liking the race against the clock has nothing to do with me being unable to do it in the timeframe and I see no reason for me to go back to Crushbone four and half years later.

Do you not think it would be fun or challenging to try the dungeons without a slower or even without a tank? Why does it have to be a timer that makes the dungeons challenging? Wouldn't it be great to just go with 5 friends without concern for their class? For those who are tempted, I will ask you why you don't do it now? The mission is to rescue someone, assassinate someone, collect x number of wigets or kill x number of mobs and success should be achievable for rescuing, assinating, collecting and killing without a timer that only serves to preordain the makeup of the roles in a group and the composition of it.

We all have our ideas of what works best. My idea right now is cleric, chanter, shaman, pally, DPS and monk/necro for the "Normal" MM dungeons because I have seen that be 100% successful for level 65 groups. The point is that it is the timer that rewards us for forming optimal groups where I believe that the game would've better served if the rewards were achievable for completion of the mission without a timer and without optimizing groups. Who would be hurt if a group of 6 beasts completed a mission in 3 hours for the same rewards won by an optimal group in 90 minutes?

Additionally, I believe death should mean failure for the deceased on the mission whether they are rezzed back in or not. That would be a challenge that was lost in the game long ago since death was so trivialized when with clerics.

Romidar
09-12-2003, 08:51 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you can't do these LDoN dungeons in the timeframe given then maybe Crushbone would be more your speed.[/quote]

Well, at least you put a smiley after it.

I haven't gotten to go on an aventure yet (family in town), so I'm withholding judgement of the timer issue. However, I am against them in principle - it is an EXTREMELY artificial crutch, even if you happen to find it fun. I've given up on most of the RP aspects of the game (sadly), but the timer takes away from the immersiveness and it favors one particular strategy over others (i.e., pull as fast you can and kill as fast as you can). As others have remarked, that favors a particular group make up.

My group often contains:

paladin
paladin
paladin
ranger
cleric
druid

Even when all 3 paladins have slay undead and we fight in a dungeon thick with undead, this group's DPS is low - the ranger does nearly as much damage as the three paladins combined (AM3/EQ).

However, we're friends. We play together not because of our class but because of the people behind them. We're not going to tell someone to take a hike because they aren't providing enough DPS. We are *gasp* socializing and forming bonds the way SOE wants us to do.

This is a technical solution to a technical problem, not a gameplay enhancment. If it were gameplay, then make some missions (e.g., rescue missions) timed, in that there could be a story element (get the prisoner out before they are executed!) and other missions could be untimed (gather up 55 of this ingredients and get them back to us when you can). Look at that, both types of players are served!

The problem with all of these dichotomies (uber vs. casual, raid vs. exp, steady exp group vs. pick up groups, etc. etc.) is that there ARE solutions that would work for everyone. No ONE solution is going to work (as evidenced by the reaction to the timer), but that means you give more choices.

Again, I haven't yet gotten to go on an adventure so I may find that the time limit is long enough that most of the time even our low DPS group will do OK. That doesn't change the fact, however, that given equal skill a higher DPS group will do better (complete more adventures in the same amount of time). I remember when people first started speculating on what instanced dungeons would mean, and there was hope that it would actually take into account the classes you had with you, not just your level. I had assumed that that would be too complex for them to do (maybe the next expansion ;) ), but it shouldn't be suprising that people are disappointed.

I will say that the response to the expansion has been remarkably favoriable, compared to LoY and PoP. I had no feeling of anticipation about playing in PoP, but I'm dying to try out some LDoN adventures. That alone says a lot for the quality of the expansion, IMHO.

Palarran
09-12-2003, 09:16 AM
Your cleric/druid/ranger/3x paladin group should do just fine (on normal) even in themes with no undead mobs. It would be a great opportunity for the druid to use Winter's Storm, since you should have several mobs engaged at once, and you won't have to worry about breaking mezzes or anything. The -50 modifier on Winter's Storm makes it work reasonably well even without debuffs.

3 paladins, a cleric, and a druid...that's a lot of stuns! And all 6 people in the group can heal to some degree, that's a big bonus...

Kaledan
09-12-2003, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
The problem with all of these dichotomies (uber vs. casual, raid vs. exp, steady exp group vs. pick up groups, etc. etc.) is that there ARE solutions that would work for everyone. No ONE solution is going to work (as evidenced by the reaction to the timer), but that means you give more choices.
[/quote]

Not really. A variety of situations would work for you, because you are in the fortunate position of having a strongly cohesive group that always plays together. So your group just decides what to do, and does it. Good for you.

Sadly, due to real-world constraints, most of us are not that fortunate. We can't pre-arrange a time to log on and expect to find the same 5 other people there within minutes.

So you take some friends, and then some acquaintances, and then maybe some strangers. This means you are not telling people what to do, you are asking them to join you.

So if you try to do something that is non-mainstream, you will struggle.

In that situation, adding options, giving greater choice, is almost always bad. The more options, the more chance that one of them is much better than any of the others, and so the actual choice is not increased but destroyed. If you need an example, think Plane of Valor a few months ago and BoT last week.

So all you can really hope for is that one of the mainstream choices is good.

If you haven't tried it, it's hard to understand why the timers are desirable or necessary. Certainly, there could be plenty of other dungeon designs that worked well without a timer. But that's not the expansion SOE has designed, and you can no more turn LDoN into that hypothetical other design by removing the timers than you can turn a car into a bicycle by removing two of the wheels.

soru

Autumn10
09-12-2003, 12:19 PM
I said nothing about skill. But if you don't want to be pushed by a timer then there's lots of dungeons that would accomodate that.

My point was that the timers in LDoN are pretty lenient, meaning there should be enough time for ANYONE to complete the dungeon in the required time. I don't see why it's such a problem when it's not that tight of a schedule. Sure they could have made it challenging without the timer and probably would have been better off doing so but that doesn't mean having the timer automatically makes it suck. As long as it's nothing like the PoJ trials(and it's not, if you think they are then you really DO need to go back to Crushbone) then I don't see the problem. There's just some people you can never satisfy I guess. *shrug*

Romidar
09-12-2003, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you haven't tried it, it's hard to understand why the timers are desirable or necessary. Certainly, there could be plenty of other dungeon designs that worked well without a timer. But that's not the expansion SOE has designed, and you can no more turn LDoN into that hypothetical other design by removing the timers than you can turn a car into a bicycle by removing two of the wheels.[/quote]

I clearly stated that I was withholding judgment, but I can say that the timers are IN PRINCIPLE a bad idea, the same way that flags IN PRINCIPLE are a bad idea.

Oh, and it seems to me that SOE designed a previous expansions with flags and linear progression at its heart where they also shrunk the blue con range. That was the expansion they designed and released, but it sure seems that that changed. Did they turn a car into a bicycle in that case too?

The fact that I have a consistent group I play with has nothing to do with logging on within seconds of each other. All of us are casual players and do not log in every night. We don't coordinate nights that we log in. When it's just 3 of us, we do something that just 3 of us can do.

I agree with you on the point that having one demonstrably easier/better choice is tantamount to having no choices at all in EQ (at least I infer that is what you meant to say) - people will TEND to take the path of least resistance. That, however, is not an argument for eliminating choice, it's an argument for balancing risk and reward. SOE hasn't always done a good job of it, but they can and have at times.

To turn around your bicycle analogy, you would have us be happy with a bicycle when we could try to get a car - because the car we get might not be a very good one and our bicycle is a good one.

FireCaller01
09-12-2003, 03:50 PM
Romidar, a paladin in my guild today put together the following group for MM:

paladin
paladin
paladin
paladin
paladin
bard

And they breezed through a 'slaughter' adventure ;)

/cackle

I understand the need to succeed and get more adventure points, but some groups are overboard in some ways, like when PoJ trials supposedly required a specific makeup to get through the fight. I've only had limited exposure to LDoN so far (only three adventures), but here are the groups I've adventured with so far:

Druid
Necro
Warrior
Beastlord
Bard
Wizard

Druid
Ranger
Monk
Shammie
Wizard (in the third group the Wizard left and we grabbed another druid)
Cleric

Building a perfect group is nice and all, but would you rather nab someone than sitting around for 10-15 minutes looking for random_needed_member_01? While this sounds dangerous, one of the reasons I got a group was that the people inviting me saw my <guildtag> and that factored into getting invited. Remember the dungeons are tailored to the group in a few ways (i.e. the 2nd-3rd groups hardly encountered any traps, while the first group saw them constantly).

Anyway, this post started out as just a note to Romidar, but I'm wondering what the dungeon would spawn into with a group of entirely casters or priests? I'll probably be trying this once people stop looking at the leaderboard and just want to have some silliness ;)

Tiane
09-12-2003, 04:14 PM
The devs have said that the mission only takes into account the average level and the number of people in the party, nothing else.

And Kaledan, I have no idea how you got from my concerns about the timers to "Or are you one of those people who doesn't care how much they have themself, as long as noone else has more?"... and you still failed to cite a single example of how a longer timer would hurt your playstyle. So seriously, lay off the insults just because you cant put together a cohesive argument.

Anyway, that one idea up there is the best, make the timers optional, or restrict them to certain types of missions. That seems the best way to satisfy all concerned.

Tia

PeteMG
09-13-2003, 01:05 AM
Well my main isn't a druid...
But the timers are nice, IMHO. You can do alot of other content if you don't like timers, but the timers do have some advantages.

1) You can set aside a set amount of time and get something accomplished besides just learning a little in the game.

2)Your group of adventure going people are motivated to get something done in an efficent manner - rather then going AFK various periods of time- which often happens to me an exp group.

3) The sense of urgency does add to the challenge of the mission. If you had unlimited time it just becomes a matter of waiting until your mana/health returns. The timers force a certain strategic plan. Many people have actually had to learn how to play their class more effectively.

Most importantly:

4) Timers are in fact necessary for the content. Lets not lose cite of this. It would be an unmitgated disaster if SOE gave you your own zone with unlimited time. This would cause them to potentially overload their servers while at the same eliminating an sense of challenge if the zone still didn't have back spawning...

The only negative thing I would say is that SOE doesn't quite understand the idea of roleplaying yet.. THey should have some kind of "reason" for the timer. e.g. the walls are coming down, the dungeon is going to flood etc, etc.

Pete

Kaledan
09-13-2003, 01:54 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Anyway, that one idea up there is the best, make the timers optional, or restrict them to certain types of missions. That seems the best way to satisfy all concerned.
[/quote]

The timers already are optional. It's your choice whether to care if you win or not, it's not a case of you can only do dungeon_05 once you have cleared dungeon_04 in 90 minutes.

The point of the timer is for the first time in a long time a group of people at the same level can actually get some loot that can't be easily soloed. The artificial 4-person minimum in a dungeon is trivial to work around, but if you can win one of these things solo within the timer, you deserve full credit.

This sets the balance of things back to what it was in original EQ. People group, people can get groups fast, people learn grouping skills, groups go better, people group more.
I had 3 tells to join groups within 3 minutes of logging on last night, hadn't had that many tells from strangers in literally 3 months pre-LDoN.

soru