View Full Forums : Why are we needed (for healing) again?


Remi
04-18-2005, 01:22 PM
I'm ranting and venting! :p When hybrids have become better healers than us in many raid situations, and better back-up healers in group situtations, I'm getting extremely frustrated.

Rangers have an Level 67 upgraged fast heal (1.8 seconds) Sylvan Water that heals (1165 hp) over twice of our Chloroblast (our only 1.8 second heal that heals 428 hp) and crits for well over 2k hp healed. Our Chloroblast has not been upgraded since level 55 (Rangers also get it at level 62).

Paladins get Group heals and Heals over Time (Pious Cleansing 528hp/tic) and a fast heal, Light of Piety (1,234 hp healed)

Druids have 10-second Level 64 Karana's Renewal that heals 4680 max (about 1/3 of a current tank's hp) for 1-1/2 times the mana of a cleric CH. It's only use is in a CCH chain to keep timing (10-seconds). In a group, I'll use Chlorotrope that crits for 7-8k hp healed and allows me to heal other group members in between.

Druids essentially have one heal spell, Chlorotrope which for 27 more mana than Karana's Renewal, and with all the AA's and focus, heals more than our % heal. It takes 3.8 seconds to cast.

So, for our healing, we have
1. a level 55 fast heal that heals 1/2 hp of Rangers' and Paladins' fast heal,
2. a once every 10 minutes combined group/HoT AA,
2. a level 64 10-second 1-1/2 times the mana for 1/2 the heal of clerics, and
4. the only spell worth using for healing, Chlorotrope that takes 3.8 seconds to cast.

I used to always keep 3 heals memmed, now, just one. :(
Put a Ranger or Paladin in a group and the group is better off to live through AE's. And both are better to heal casters than we are. And Rangers have castable agro reduction and Weapon shield to protect them if they get heal agro.

Cures: Look to Clerics, Shaman and Paladins for superior cast cures.

Damage Shields. Ranger's new Ward of the Hunter beats our Damage Shield for tanks:

1: Increase Damage Shield by 45
2: Increase ATK by 170
3: Increase AC by 49
4: Increase Max Hitpoints by 165

Nukes

Solstice Strike is a great nuke! But, it can't be used in Plane of Fire, Qvic, or the more popular areas of Riftseekers. Our cold nuke has been nerfed (reduced in damage) and it is also highly resisted in Qvic and our cold debuff is also highly resisted everywhere. Our magic nukes, well... even the stun is resisted at the higher levels. :p I go to GoD/Qvic with my guild and I pretty much am useless except for casting 2 magic dots.

Rangers can seasons, heal, snare and do more dps than us. The only reason a raid or group needs a druid it seems is one for Oak. :p Shaman have the equal of our Lion's Strength.

I don't mind at all that the hybrids get some good heals. But, they are hybrids. Druids are a priest class, and we should, at least, heal groups better than a hybrid. We shouldn't be limited to a single 627 mana 3.8 second heal for everything. It was painful enough when Rangers got a superior snare AA, but now Rangers and Paladins are superior fast healers than Druids?!? This just seems wrong to me.

Nimphe Wildwood
04-18-2005, 05:06 PM
I totally agree with you 100 p-e-r-c-e-n-t!

Sildan
04-18-2005, 05:59 PM
Well Said!!

We ned some, err, Re-Envisioning me thinks

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
04-18-2005, 07:34 PM
It may be that we do not understand the definition of priest, or our role as a priest. Perhaps, it is not to heal, but to preach to the heathen mobs in an (albeit misguided) attempt to convert them. Perhaps too, we are to be the sacrifices that bring all other classes into an enlightened state of being.

Or, it may be that Tunare and Karana simply do not love their druid children as much as they love their ranger children, or as much as other gods love their priest children.


SOE certainly doesn't :(

Rainan
04-18-2005, 07:53 PM
Nope, SOE hates us for sure :(

Kindertan
04-18-2005, 09:46 PM
I hope they correct this when they do our revising...or I will be a truly unhappy druid. I'm still a tad peev'd about rangers getting a snare aa...where's mine? I'll spend the points!
The whole situation gets a /blehargh from me.

oh and one more thing....*wishes really hard* I want a 10th spell slot *runs away*

Bristiladd
04-18-2005, 10:04 PM
I have to agree even the ancient heal is not that great with the long cast time.

Guvwenea
04-19-2005, 01:02 PM
I couldnt agree more :frown:

Perhaps, it is not to heal, but to preach to the heathen mobs in an (albeit misguided) attempt to convert them.

And LOL ! Perhaps!!

Guv

Noken
04-20-2005, 04:47 PM
Agreed, Remi.

On top of healing, I also find it funny how hp buffs stack up.

cleric + beastlord: 1787 (conviction) + 513 (focus) + 280 (SV) = 2580
cleric + shaman: 1787 (conviction) + 680 (wunshi) + 100ish (sta) = 2567
cleric + paladin: 1787 (convicion) + 412 (BBB) = 2199
cleric + ranger: 1787 (conviction) + 155 (hunter) = 1942
cleric + druid: 1137 (balikor) + 772 (oak) = 1909

best combo is shaman + paladin at 2657, worst is ranger + druid at 927.

Ajjantis
04-20-2005, 06:41 PM
Its not only their heal spells, all this began when hybrids became the same big mana pool than casters. IMO that was allready a big error, they should have never given casters and hybrids the same mana, thats just wrong. And now they get even better heals, that is seriously ****ed up.

Xodar
04-21-2005, 06:53 AM
Boy I hate to interrupt a good rant, but you have some misinformation.

First, Ward of the Hunter is the Ranger self only combo buff. It essentially contains Howl of the Predator, Guard of Earth, Strength of the Hunter, and shield of Briar (our level 66 32pt. single target DS, the best we get) into 1 buff for the ranger only. It is purely a buff slot convenience, and ranger in a group will be casting HoP and GoE as needed anyway, and SotH if someone wants it. In that situation it still pays for me to wear the single target buffs and use Druid DS (55pt is best?) for maximum effect.

Secondly, I use the new heal, love the new heal, and had max healing AA before it got beefed up. But is a 3 second cast time, because hybrid innate spell haste only applys to detrimental spells. With focus I shave it down to 2 and a halfish. And that is the only spell worth casting in challenging content, the elusive GoD heal is 850 now but painfully rare, and beyond that it's Chloro (the best heal we had until GoD)


Sylvan Water (3 secons cast time) 456 mana/1165 hp = 2.55 hp/mana
Chlorotrope (3.75 second cast time) 627mana/2420 hp = 3.86 hp/mana

Combine that with 50 more wisdom through IE, and *generally* more FT/mana then a hybrid ( different gear focuses, I *generally* have 200 worn attack on Druids) and it's not comparable. I can throw a decent heal on a caster or the puller if the main healer(s) are busy, I can spam my mana bar away on something if we have a healer drop and work through the mob, I cannot heal efficiently and continuously in challenging content. My group dps has actually suffered since the upgrade, lol, a lot more mana spent healing and not spent on damage.

Now I do agree that Druids need some healing work, another big slower efficient heal and a bigger fast heal for sure, but Rangers are not really a threat.

Remi
04-21-2005, 11:40 AM
well bleh! heh I was told by a ranger in my guild that their cast time was 1.8. I checked Lucy's before I wrote this, but perhaps I missed the casting time on Sylvan Water while checking for other details. :p Thanks for the clarification! :)

Now about those Paladins... :p

Dari
04-21-2005, 02:19 PM
My husband is a ranger. He is not exactly ecstatic over the heal increases. Sure it's nice. But if he wanted to be a healer, he'd have rolled a cleric (OMG that sounds familiar doesn't it? *gasp*)
They ignored the true needs of rangers.
They ignored the true needs of druids.
Why did SoE even ask for our top ten list? Do they really think we believe they were listening?

Juniper
04-21-2005, 03:18 PM
Dari - my fiancee is a Beastlord. He said something similar. He keeps his new heal up to reduce downtime, but he would have much rather had the group spell Tureptan Spirit that Beastlords originaly got with GoD runes.

Increase STA by 45
Increase DEX by 55
Increase STR by 50
Increase Hitpoints by 525

It dosn't sound like much but all the casters with so-so resists loved it because it would stack with the shield line, and we could still have hp and MR we needed. It also came in handy in groups with no shaman.

It was changed after BST class person (who must be a raging tard - can I say that? I dunno if I can say that) said they needed better heals. Now it just heals for 850, which did absolutly nothing for a 65 Beastlord in GoD, pre OoW.

Noken
04-21-2005, 04:39 PM
My ranger buff info is somewhat lacking, because they're the first two I click off (which is a problem for rangers to take up) but I thought the one I mentioned was in the same line as BBB and SV?
This spell: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5306&source=Live

I am always grouped with a cleric, which is why I used them as a base for comparison, and I found it embarassing that any other buff class can raise hp more, and indeed worse still since paladins dont use oak, and many people choose conviction because of the longer duration.

Anyway, back to healing.

Ssseth
04-21-2005, 05:16 PM
Xodar really hit the nail on the head. As a beastlord, I'll never have the mana pool or access to FT gear that a priest does. I use this new heal (Muada's Mending for BST) quite often, and with some healing AA it crits fairly often for roughly 3k hp. It must be kept in mind though, that while this number seems imbalancing, it comes down to that it's possible under ideal conditions and with the best of luck that I could possibly heal a raid member for a third of their hp at best. That's an awful lot of luck, and still doesn't do a lot. At best all it does for me is that it allows me to "rescue" a group member until a priest heal can land.

So compared to a druid I have this stacked against me:
- Smaller mana pool
- Less FT gear
- No named healing focus (I use tribute actually)
- Only one effective heal
- No additional "self buff" effects
- No specializations
- Lower meditate cap
- **No ability to meditate

That last point is a big one. On raids I use standing regen only (Clairvoyance, Oak, SA, a small amount of FT). I'm a melee class after all. If I blow my mana pool healing I can't back up and med a bit or hop on a drog. And really on raids I only use this heal on myself, or to cap someone off between pulls.

As for gear, hybrids have to weigh combat effects and spell effects. Most hybrids will go for Cleave or Improved Dodge before any FT or spell focus.

I'm not trying to make this out to be a "you're so wrong!" post, but hybrids would need very large changes to their classes to begin to compete with priest abilities.

Xodar
04-22-2005, 12:53 AM
My ranger buff info is somewhat lacking, because they're the first two I click off (which is a problem for rangers to take up) but I thought the one I mentioned was in the same line as BBB and SV?
This spell: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5306&source=Live

I am always grouped with a cleric, which is why I used them as a base for comparison, and I found it embarassing that any other buff class can raise hp more, and indeed worse still since paladins dont use oak, and many people choose conviction because of the longer duration.

Anyway, back to healing.

A good observation Noken, but Ward of the Hunter, being the self only combo buff, is only in the BBB/SV/SotH line because it does not stack with any of them. The spell you linked was our incarnation of the BBB/SV line (155hp 75 atk) but you make a good point with the cleric. The attack portion of the SV/SotH spells conflict with Yaulp and AotZ for clerics. I believe Brells line stacks.

Matren
04-22-2005, 03:23 AM
Hybrids at the high end game have almost the same mana pool as casters, which is utter BS, also at the high end you should be able to get decent FT. Id be happy if they made Casters/priests mana calcs different from hybrids to allow us to have a larger manapool.

oakdad
04-22-2005, 01:10 PM
OMG don't say larger mana pool unless you are going to included a higher mana regen. As it is right now if I die I am tempted to go mow the lawn while I to get my mana pool back.

Juniper
04-22-2005, 01:51 PM
Yeah, it takes me forever to med back what I have, and I have lich line to use. Even if I were to get the FT cap AA it would still take ages. And I'm not even sporting that much mana (just the magelo number + 400 from a clicky).

How is it BS for hybrids to have a ton of mana? Paladins, SK's, Rangers and Beastlords use quite a lot of mana on raids, they just don't have to spam the raid with their useage of it like some healer classes do.

Either way, it would take a massive retuning of BST/PAL/RNG to have them heal as effectively as druids though I agree our cures and the potential for a 'real' group heal would be nice.

Mannwin Woobie
04-22-2005, 02:54 PM
and many people choose conviction because of the longer duration.

Since you mention it, it would be nice to have Oak and Symbol last for the same duration. I don't mind having to use an additional buff slot for Oak/Symbol over Conviction, but why do I also get shafted on the duration?

teialiscious
04-22-2005, 03:43 PM
Hopefully the % calculation that gets done by our new incoming 25%/-50% ability gets done after all AA's get taken into account. This would push our CH up to around 7500. 7500 is probably more than enough to be able to hang as main healer in even the most difficult of single group exp areas. We'll see... Druid CH heal is definitely the area imo that is in most dire need of improvement.

As for pallies / rangers taking "patch" healing jobs. 1200'ish heals make crappy patch heals. Those heals make awesome emergency heals with their fastcast. So Druids don't get to be emergency healers - pallies / rangers do. I'm ok with that :D

The day the raid starts calling in Rangers and Pallies to do rampage tank healing - I'll cry - but that day is not today!

Fanra
04-22-2005, 08:22 PM
Let's not get into "oh, class A has it better than druids".

The real story is we don't have the tools we need to do the job. We need our fast heals to be really fast. And we need spells that heal more to match the greater HP of players and the greater damage mobs do.

We already asked for our spells to be fixed in the Top 10 list. Said list accidentally fell into Mount Doom a few months back.

In its place is the change to DD spells that just took place and a new choose to be healer or blaster for a while to actually sort of come kind of close to how you should really be.

Oh ya, if you get all your AAs and the really nice gear, you can almost preform like you should out of the box. Oh, yes, you do have all your spells don't you? I mean it is so easy to get them.

"Sony and EQ, clueless together for more than six years." ™

Xodar
04-23-2005, 06:08 PM
Hybrids at the high end game have almost the same mana pool as casters, which is utter BS, also at the high end you should be able to get decent FT. Id be happy if they made Casters/priests mana calcs different from hybrids to allow us to have a larger manapool.

Oh well if we're talking high end....
First off, if we both have maxed stat AA's you have 50 wisdom more then I do at max stats. Second, have you ever seen a hybrid with a Maelin's clicky? That makes 400 raw mana and 8 mana/tick. Then figure that your gear choices placed a higher value on +mana then mine did, since you weren't after attack and combat effects. Do druids get a specialization? Even discounting that, assume we have the same MP focus, my spells are far less efficient then a druids in base mana to damage and mana to heal ratios.

I have FT10, +MC3, +M&BR (1 more mana regen), + MotS for 17 mana regen self buffed. That isn't terrible, browse eqrankings, very few rangers are needing the FT cap AA. Keep in mind since I haven't gobbled a 70 rune yet my best hp buff is nature skin, and even once I feel ok to waste a 70 rune I just get Natureskin+ (Onyxskin, few more hp, still no mana regen at all)

The *similar* size of mana pools between caster and hybrid are kept relative by the lack of efficiency in hybrid spells. If anything the mana gap, if you will, has grown with the addition of the Maelin clicks, 50 WIS, and the increased FT cap. In NO CONTENT can I outcast you via healing, buffing, or damaging, as it should be.

Noken
04-24-2005, 01:46 AM
Sometimes the only way to not get flaged as a whiner on these formus is to present an issue in raw numbers, and numbers need comparisons and means of establishing a base line. Please dont take it as pot-shots at any given class, but rather the most effective and factual means we've learned to present a problem.

Fanra is, imo, absolutely correct "The real story is we don't have the tools we need to do the job." Remi is pointing out just one more tool, using some numbers, that druids need that apparently a "hybrid" of the druid class can learn, yet we cannot. My comparison with the buffs is no different.

There is a great deal of pressure on a healer to preform when the going gets tough, and when we fail (and worse yet when someone makes note / complains) it is severly disappointing all around for a druid to say "I could not have done better" when what we really want to say is "I should have done better." If druids are to preform better, and save people more often, than the tools must be provided.

Ajjantis
04-24-2005, 01:52 PM
Xodar really hit the nail on the head. As a beastlord, I'll never have the mana pool or access to FT gear that a priest does.

This is so NOT true, i have access to a time+qvic equipped Beastlord and he has a ****load of mana. His Manaregen is also capped like alldecent equipped player have it maxed. And since BST are leatherclasses we share almost the same loot table meaning they get everything we get. Im a okay equipped druid and if you compare my mana pool with a beastlords one you see we have about the SAME mana. But this aint limited to beastlords, ALL hybrids have a BIG mana pool. Like i mentioned in an earlier post, it was this patch long time ago that gave hybrids the same mana pool which was absolutaly wrong imo. Guess how we call Ranger nowdays? Druids with bows.

Vekx
04-24-2005, 03:28 PM
This is so NOT true, i have access to a time+qvic equipped Beastlord and he has a ****load of mana. His Manaregen is also capped like alldecent equipped player have it maxed. And since BST are leatherclasses we share almost the same loot table meaning they get everything we get. Im a okay equipped druid and if you compare my mana pool with a beastlords one you see we have about the SAME mana. But this aint limited to beastlords, ALL hybrids have a BIG mana pool. Like i mentioned in an earlier post, it was this patch long time ago that gave hybrids the same mana pool which was absolutaly wrong imo. Guess how we call Ranger nowdays? Druids with bows.

Agree. Just go to eqrankings.com and see what the beasts have. While you don't see them with the mana pool of the top 10-ish druids they are up there. And this is probably because they don't look for it as much as druids do. I have a bst friend with similar level equipment as me and she is past me in mana.

Juniper
04-24-2005, 05:49 PM
Similar mana pool is one thing, a BST will never heal as well as a Druid without huge retuning. Stop freaking out.

Ajjantis
04-24-2005, 09:03 PM
Similar mana pool is one thing, a BST will never heal as well as a Druid without huge retuning. Stop freaking out.

Ever duelled a decent equipped Ranger or Beastlord? They can just stand there with attack off and allow you to debuff/dot/nuke and guess why you still loose? they have so much mana to outheal whatever you do. Yeah their heals dont heal as much as ours but their heals take less mana also. And i know it wont mean **** on raids but its just one example of many. The other day in Tacvi i was in a grp with 4 rangers and 1 bard and we did the hardest event besides tunat. The one with a chain 5k dd aoe and damn, the ranger were the healers not me lol.

Xodar
04-26-2005, 12:43 AM
Ever duelled a decent equipped Ranger or Beastlord? They can just stand there with attack off and allow you to debuff/dot/nuke and guess why you still loose? they have so much mana to outheal whatever you do. Yeah their heals dont heal as much as ours but their heals take less mana also. And i know it wont mean **** on raids but its just one example of many. The other day in Tacvi i was in a grp with 4 rangers and 1 bard and we did the hardest event besides tunat. The one with a chain 5k dd aoe and damn, the ranger were the healers not me lol.

First, PvP for casters is screwed when your low resist is 300+. I agree, I just didn't break it. It has nothing to do with our relative healing lines and everything to do with the fact that casters cannot consistently land spells on PC's with those resist levels.

Also, do look at eqrankings, first at druids, then at BL's and Rangers paying special attention to UMR. Even considering that we get 1 extra innate regen through AA, the fact that there are 6+ melee focuses we also want in addition to worn attack, hybrids are often not at the cap even in Tacvi. Not that we don't have access to the same focuses you want (Mana Pres, Bene spell haste, heal focus, FT, nuke focus, etc.) but we often sacrifice them in favor of the other effects that caster/priests do not go after (Cleave, combat effects, strikethrough, Ferocity, accuracy). Also throw in that Maelin clicky which bumps your regen up 8 beyond where I can even get.

My first post on this thread quoted our mana efficiency numbers. They were:

Sylvan Water (3 secons cast time) 456 mana/1165 hp = 2.55 hp/mana
Chlorotrope (3.75 second cast time) 627mana/2420 hp = 3.86 hp/mana

With max AA (discounting worn focus)
Sylvan Water (3 secons cast time) 456 mana/1492 hp = 3.27 hp/mana
Chlorotrope (3.75 second cast time) 627mana/3098 hp = 4.94 hp/mana

So with max healing AA I still don't heal as efficiently as a druid with zero AA's.

Again, that is my one and only heal, no slow big heal, no faster heal, no lower level heal worth casting. In your example you said 4 rangers were able to heal challenging content. If they were well AA'ed and geared I can buy it, but it's unlikely they were doing 40% (speaking as a dedicated parser, I know even spot healing in groups kills my dps) of their potential dps while they were doing it, and it's certain they could not sustain it as long as you could. And there were FOUR of them. That's not an example of a ranger outhealing you, that is 4 players spamming 1 spell to create healing that an equivalently geared/AA'ed Druid probably could have covered.

Even ignoring relative mana pools, clickies only available to priests, additional wisdom through IE, and anything else, the balance is maintained through the inefficiency of our spells. I am not going to be dragging my big 1492 heal to MPG to do anything but buy a Druid or a cleric 1 second to land a big heal, it fits fairly well in current content, although I think Druids do need a larger heal to be more effective in the same content.

Edit: Going alphabetically down the server sorting rangers by UMR, I checked to Fennin Ro. On NO server did more then 3 rangers have over 20 UMR (which also counts AA mana regen). Many only had 1. That is not comparable, that is not even close.

Matren
04-27-2005, 03:35 PM
Edit: Going alphabetically down the server sorting rangers by UMR, I checked to Fennin Ro. On NO server did more then 3 rangers have over 20 UMR (which also counts AA mana regen). Many only had 1. That is not comparable, that is not even close.

Uhhhhhh, you are retarded. I just checked for rangers on all servers listed by UMR and theres 599 profiles that have 15 UMR or more.

And as for the extra 50 wisdom that priest get:

IT MEANS NEXT TO NOTHING.

Just sort all classes by Mana pool for all servers, all wisdom using hybrids were close to being within 1000 mana to all of the priests. Yes 1000 mana is a nice amount, but they are still on the verge of having the exact same mana pool as the ****ing priests, which is wrong. Most of the hybrids when sorted in this manner also have 15+ UMR (most, but not all. Rangers seemed to be low in this aspect) Hybrids should NEVER have been allowed to get THIS close to having a priests/casters mana pool, Im not saying they shouldnt get this much mana, Im just saying that the Priests/Casters need something done in their mana calculation formula to boost theirs up a significant amount.

Kaidman
04-27-2005, 05:43 PM
Im just saying that the Priests/Casters need something done in their mana calculation formula to boost theirs up a significant amount.



So raiding druids have like 20k mana? I already have enough problems trying to blow 13k mana on raids. Who cares if hybrids have a nice mana pool, their spells are like half as effecient as ours so they come no where near our spellcasting powers. Want SOE to take away 4k of our hitpoints and give us 4k more mana or wtf? We can already keep up in hitpoints easily within 1k of rangers.

Top ranger: 12.1k hp, 10.6k mana
Top druid: 11.5k hp, 12.1k mana (when not wearing robe)

Bottom line: Their spells are **** for effeciency, ours are fairly good. On test server our heals have been bumped up almost 400+ healed I'm hearing which makes us even more effecient. On raids our heals are 2.3 seconds, if yours is not then I suggest re-considering what gear you choose (fennin belt, CT ear, Tacvi ear, Anguish gloves, DoN eye quest mask). If 2.3 sec is not fast enough for you then I suggest stepping up your play skills or consider playing another class. Fast heal is not going to change much for us and I doubt I'd ever load it if they gave us one.

Group heal or group cures would increase our raiding desirability. Not HoTs, not a 1.8 second heal (half second faster than 2.3 sec lol). Neither group heals or group cures increase grouping desirability though, and I'm assuming that is still the stage they are looking at. Look at our CH if worried about grouping, look at group curing/healing if worried about raiding.

:eusa_booh :eusa_booh

Xodar
04-27-2005, 07:56 PM
/agree Kaidman

As I have said 2 times before now, it's the spell ratio which defines hybrid more then mana pool.

Trying not to be antagonistic here but what about alphabetically checking servers for the class in question's UMR up to Fennin Ro as I did is retarded (with 2 d's)? And 15 UMR is not 20UMR, or 23UMR. Going by EQrankings there are roughly 2300 Druids with 15+ UMR. But Let's swap that up to 20. I find 778 druids at 20 UMR+. Know how many rangers I found at or above 20 UMR? Forty seven serverwide.

And it doesn't even matter, lol, because it has everything to do with the combination of mana efficiency and more spell suited focuses for druids vs. rangers (As demonstrated by mana regen).

I agree that druids need some work to deal with challenging content more efficiently, but that work isnt going to come from coveting my whopping 1165 base inefficient heal.

Hayleey
04-28-2005, 04:35 PM
Ancient chloro, Chlorotrope are very mana intensive spells, Give us a decent Group heal/Cure and a better CH and I think that the Mana problems with Chloro would not be so bad.

As it is now, Druid being a group healer in Anguish can get rather rough. Even If I were up around 10k mana I think its still going to be a problem for me :banghead_

MadroneDorf
04-28-2005, 05:56 PM
While I realize that not everyone has high end Gear, Its what i'm experienced with, its the area i'll post about.

The problem with comparing Hybrid to druid heals is most people forget to factor in the following..

Lack of SCM3 - a big one, not only does it give a effective 10% more manapool, since everything costs less, you also mana regen the amount needed back faster.

Lack of Specialization, Either 50, 100, or 200, depending on whether its spec :evoc, 2ndary Spec: Alt, or spec alt.

Generally inferior Focus's/Clicks - While Hybrids do have access to a lot of the same focus's, they generally dont have the same oones, usually a step or two lower..

Lower total mana due to lack of OverWis/Int AA's.

All that stuff adds up to make it so comparing law rucy values isnt exactly fair.

Erikochan
05-07-2005, 02:44 AM
Oh, my, God. This post is filled with troll material, and I'm happy to take the bait - either you haven't been around long enough or you are one bored player :


Rangers have an Level 67 upgraged fast heal (1.8 seconds) Sylvan Water that heals (1165 hp) over twice of our Chloroblast (our only 1.8 second heal that heals 428 hp) and crits for well over 2k hp healed. Our Chloroblast has not been upgraded since level 55 (Rangers also get it at level 62).


Chloro = 55, ranger heal = 67, apples and pears


Paladins get Group heals and Heals over Time (Pious Cleansing 528hp/tic) and a fast heal, Light of Piety (1,234 hp healed)


Paladins are cleric hybrids, they have 90 rez too, so we should have it as well? Apples and pears.


Druids have 10-second Level 64 Karana's Renewal that heals 4680 max (about 1/3 of a current tank's hp) for 1-1/2 times the mana of a cleric CH. It's only use is in a CCH chain to keep timing (10-seconds). In a group, I'll use Chlorotrope that crits for 7-8k hp healed and allows me to heal other group members in between.


The only time I use KR is when I heal for over 5K (yes, with AAs) on a regular basis on the tank. The tank has to be fatter than 11K for this, because I refuse to 'heal low' just so I crank the max out of my heal. Better a smaller hitting heal than a dead tank. Who uses KR anyway? It's a sh*tty spell to begin with. 3744 HP heal all the way! :) (TR)


Druids essentially have one heal spell, Chlorotrope which for 27 more mana than Karana's Renewal, and with all the AA's and focus, heals more than our % heal. It takes 3.8 seconds to cast.


Again, wrong. I use Sylvan Infusion most of the time which is very much sufficient. Chlorodrain is too expensive and rarely heals for max. FYI, we raid inktuta/qvic/don targets & misc stuff (DMZ, Hulcror, Velitorkin etc etc)


So, for our healing, we have
1. a level 55 fast heal that heals 1/2 hp of Rangers' and Paladins' fast heal,
2. a once every 10 minutes combined group/HoT AA,
2. a level 64 10-second 1-1/2 times the mana for 1/2 the heal of clerics, and
4. the only spell worth using for healing, Chlorotrope that takes 3.8 seconds to cast.


Get your facts straight!
1 apples and pears, see above
2 it's 15 minutes, and yes that strengthens your point, but spirit of the grove is still one of our better AAs and I wouldn't want to miss it.
3 then don't use that manadrainer, use Tunare's! 3744 hp is enough for most regular tanks, and so what if you can't get that hp bar back to full health, it's efficiency that matters, not the size of your d*ck (if even applicable, you know what I mean)
4 bs. read what I wrote.


I used to always keep 3 heals memmed, now, just one. :(
Put a Ranger or Paladin in a group and the group is better off to live through AE's. And both are better to heal casters than we are. And Rangers have castable agro reduction and Weapon shield to protect them if they get heal agro.


Which means more slots available for other spells.. Stop looking at just the negative sides! We aren't clerics, we never will be.
Put a pally or ranger in group and the group is better off to live through AEs........ and what's the problem with that? If I have a healing pally in my group then I say : more power to him ! (in the metaphorical sense) Yeah, pallies better healers than druids... Ever noticed how pallies run out of mana when they have to heal a lot? They have to build aggro with stuns too you know.

The word "troll" comes to mind.


Cures: Look to Clerics, Shaman and Paladins for superior cast cures.


Yes cos they're CLERICS. FFS. Shaman's are supposed to cure stuff, they're shamans ! And again, repeating record time : Pallies are cleric hybrids. Druids, are, not.


Damage Shields. Ranger's new Ward of the Hunter beats our Damage Shield for tanks:

1: Increase Damage Shield by 45
2: Increase ATK by 170
3: Increase AC by 49
4: Increase Max Hitpoints by 165


Yes... And druids can do DS *and* heal *and* nuke *and* snare *and* port.... If I didn't know any better I'd say you're not even a druid.



Nukes

Solstice Strike is a great nuke! But, it can't be used in Plane of Fire, Qvic, or the more popular areas of Riftseekers. Our cold nuke has been nerfed (reduced in damage) and it is also highly resisted in Qvic and our cold debuff is also highly resisted everywhere. Our magic nukes, well... even the stun is resisted at the higher levels. :p I go to GoD/Qvic with my guild and I pretty much am useless except for casting 2 magic dots.


SS is a great nuke! Yes, it is! Let's enjoy that for a moment. An actual positive statement from you. Ok.. now that we're done, yes fire gets resisted by fire resistent mobs. Cold nukes HAVEN'T been nerfed (yes, I realize you typed ''reduced in damage'' as well ... then say THAT instead of nerfed!). The cold debuff is an error by Sony, true that. However, our rain for example has been fixed real good and now burns a hole in my monitor because it's got a good ratio for not getting resisted so often anymore :)

Qvic is f*cked up for druids, agree. But you know what? Soloing for rogues in vxed or tipt is too. That doesn't make sense to you? Neither does your qvic remark. Every class has zones where they can perform well or perform sh*tty. Simple. A child can understand this.


Rangers can seasons, heal, snare and do more dps than us. The only reason a raid or group needs a druid it seems is one for Oak. :p Shaman have the equal of our Lion's Strength.


Rangers are melee, they're supposed to do damage.. And besides, rangers have it bad, they need a fix, just like berserkers. A raid doesn't need a wiz for anything except AE TL. Does that make the wiz useless? No. To buff or not to buff, that is NOT the question.


I don't mind at all that the hybrids get some good heals. But, they are hybrids. Druids are a priest class, and we should, at least, heal groups better than a hybrid. We shouldn't be limited to a single 627 mana 3.8 second heal for everything. It was painful enough when Rangers got a superior snare AA, but now Rangers and Paladins are superior fast healers than Druids?!? This just seems wrong to me.

Yep, agree. And hybrids don't heal better than priests. Chloroblast doesn't count, at 55 you're not main healer you're just a ploinker / splasher til 58. And I will only give you this : I know that sucks.

Ravara
05-09-2005, 05:23 AM
I don't think a 55 heal is ment to be balenced against other classes lvl 65+ heals.

The buff info is missleading due to stacking issues. Steeloak is what almost everyone wants. Steeloak+Wunshi+Fort+Balikor+BBB is your top mana regen+hps package. Some drop brells for ranger/bst buffs, if they want the atk. A pally will drop steeloak for conviction+self buff. A cleric might do the same, but often not when wunshi's is present. As Balikor+WoV+Steeloak is more hps and ac than conviction, and has mana regen, i'm not feeling that we are being edged out on buffs.

Rangers don't spot heal in my groups, I outheal any ranger I've met. And while my only mana regen clicky is +2hps/mana a tick, its more than most rangers have. And if I were a raider, I know I'd have a +5 or better clicky, again not something the rangers are famous for.

Regarding KR VS TR.... your milage will probably change when your tanks are always 11k+. I'm never going back now. :)

Clorotrope usually lands for full when I use it, and with spell haste foci (anyone can get via tribute or don) its much faster.

Cold nukes are for being effiecent, fire nukes are for higher dps. Both have zones or mobs where they aren't an option. And some mobs can't be posion dotted, some can't be disease dotted. Is the shaman class broken because they have to use the Bane line to land dots well in veksar? I don't think so.

And no comparing self buffs to single target buffs. It would be like clerics saying druid buffs need to be nerfed, look at the mask line they refuse to cast on us! Mean treehuggers!

I'm needed for haling because I'm good at it. I have tanks who appreciate my ability to heal. And when my heals aren't needed, I provide dps. And wherever we go, I provide snare, exodus, buffs.... things that may seem small till you don't have it.

Oaklie
05-11-2005, 09:21 PM
The real point is that RNG, PAL and BST can now cast a faster backup heal than a Druid. Even Chloroblast, which use to 1.8 sec cast, was nerfed to a 3 sec cast in the April patch and yet again in today's patch and is now a useless 3.75 sec heal. I use to keep Chloroblast up as my third heal for emergencies (I would crit on it for about 1k).

This is no longer an option and unless there is some new fast heal added, I venture to say that I'm going to have to get good at starting groups if I want one that's going to take on some mobs that have the drops I want.

If you can get the dps of a ranger or beastlord, or tankage of a pally and get that emergency backup heal to boot, why would you ever invite a Druid to a group for backup heals and dps?

A group would need to have some other need for a Druid. What that is, I'm really not sure.

Sure we can do alright at many different tasks, but our strengths have been given to other classes or, worse, just given outright to every class. You can now pay 10pp to an NPC and port anywhere you wanta go.

If SoE were to installed an NPC that dished out KEI or Conviction or Wunsch or sold pet weapons or mod rods by the dozens, all for a 1/5 of the donation you use to get, you might start to get the point.

True, while installing a guild portal isn't the same as giving out buffs, it removes that much demand for a Druid.

We use to be able to charm animals for Tipt trials, but no, that was nerfed. That's a chanter only job now, unless you're a lvl 70 Druid with your last lvl 70 spell. LOL This removed that much demand for a Druid.

Druids have been asking for a fast heal for how long now? Instead, we see it go to hybrid classes. What Ranger, Bst or Pally has ever gone to SoE and said, "you know a faster heal would really help me do what other players expect me to be able to do?" Answer: Not one.

Meanwhile, I can point you to at least a hundred posts on this site alone that say a fast heal is desperately needed for Druids to do what the other players are asking them to do.

The only reason you have never seen a Ranger or Beastlord handle spot heals is BECAUSE THEY'VE NEVER HAD THAT ABILITY BEFORE. Their heals were all slow and clunky and healed for a few hundred hp. With all healing AA's, they can now crit for close to 3k, and the Pally heal casts in 1 second. Again, this removed that much demand for a Druid.

How many times could I have used a 1 sec that could crit for 3k?

You are going to see hybrid classes handle spot heals more and more as people start seeing it done. And as far as mana efficiency goes, who's ever heard a Ranger say to the group "OOM"? LMAOROFL

Druids have been asking for better heals for a very, very long time. Today's patch gave us a better selection of heals and a slight improvement in mana efficiency, to what were mostly mana hogs before.

I still don't understand why Nature's Touch was not coverted into a fast heal. I don't understand why SoE doesn't give Druids the tools to do what the players want us to be able to do. It's quite frustrating.


In the meantime, I recommend that if you are having trouble getting a group, start one. If you're the leader of the group, you can't be uninvited. Just invite a Cleric so your groups willing to take on some named that have the good drops, or better yet, invite a second Druid.


To those who say a lvl 65 druid [the way things are now] should be able to heal a named in WoS, I say you are literally out of your mind. I've seen Clerics get eaten up and I know I've been eaten up there. Maybe with the changes that are coming we'll be able to, but until then, I'll only heal there if I have backup heals and a really good tank.


If you're not a Druid and you don't understand what I just said above, then go ahead and invite a Druid as your only healer and try to take down a tough named that has some rewarding drops.

Go ahead. I wouldn't, but you should and then maybe you'll understand why Druids are getting pissed. They see that 1 sec Pally heal and say, "Hey that's what I've been asking for." ... "Why on Earth did you give it to a tank?"

It's either fix the heals [today's patch does not fix the heals, only improves them] or undo all the nerfs from the last 3 expansions.

HHHHHHuuuuuummmmm, I'm almost of the mind that wants to start asking for all the nerfs back and screw the heals. Put us back to the way we were 18 months ago and remove all of the Druid specific anti-soloing programming from the last 3 expansions. That'd be nice! Some soloing in mpg would be some massive exp. A level 70 Druid maybe might be able to pull off a soloing of a Tipt trial. Really, it's outdoors, HoN works there. It'd be tough as hell. I wonder if anyone has solo'ed the whole trial before they nerfed the charms.


What's odd is that most of the nerfs target our soloing capability, yet I find myself soloing more and more. I'd rather have a group, but you know, I'd rather solo than heal a lame group that doesn't want to do some exciting.

aalandra
07-24-2005, 02:48 AM
WOW this sounds like the same thing clerics said about druids/shamen getting better heals.

:wiggle:

Dreleen
07-24-2005, 06:15 PM
Speaking from an average druids point of veiw. I have little over 7K mana and I main heal 95% of the time.

I have no problem with Rangers getting a beefy quick heal. I see it as a window to save my arse all the quicker if Im getting munched. Its not like Sony made it to wear rangers would be replacing druids in groups as main healers or anything.

I recently found out I could main heal in MPG with very little problems or down time so long as we had a shaman assisting during flurries so we wouldnt get any close calls. This was a BIG surprise to me and I have that uber chlorothope to thank for it. I keep KR up still but I hardly ever use it. Why heal in 10 sec when you can heal for 4ish (mid 8K on crits) in more then half the time. I do wish they had given us a new 10sec heal just for RoT sakes but Im not gonna cry over spilt milk! As for the HoT spell as got back in the day, Ive never had any use for it unless youre pwrlvling a twink or something.

The more HoTs Pallys have the less I have to do in a group heh. No complaints here!

Same with ranger snares

Shammy cures

Mages DS

However if the situation calls I have those rdy for use.

I donno bout you but if I had to juggle healing the tank, healing the group, snaring the mobs, nuking the mobs, dotting the mobs, curing the cruds, looting the mobs, DSing the tank, and Regening the group, all by myself in a single Id have a nervous break down. Im glad the responsibilties are spread out over a few classes.

Before I started my druid I looked over the PRIMA guide back in the Kunark days and I think they stated that the Druid class is a jack of all trades! We stick our dirty paws in EVERYTHING but NEVER "master" any of it. Ive come to accept this.


I dont need to be the best in anything I just need to do what I do well!

I know this is a bunch of babble so good luck decyphering hahaa:rolleyes:

Juniper
07-25-2005, 01:21 AM
With all healing AA's, they can now crit for close to 3k, and the Pally heal casts in 1 second. Again, this removed that much demand for a Druid.

How many times could I have used a 1 sec that could crit for 3k?

COULD, but almost never does. I regularly duo with a 70 Beastlord and my heals are vastly more efficient. While it's true Beastlords and Rangers can patch heal, it's more helpful in the top-someone-off role, or an 'oh ****' capacity. I for one don't mind at all or see it as a threat, as asking a BST/Ranger to main heal in WoS is hilarious. I can heal in WoS--including groupable named at 66 with easily obtainable gear (except perhaps my primary).

As my main, I have and continue to regularly invite Druids as my primary healers because I trust them more than Clerics.

As far as a Ranger saying 'oom' in a group, yeah that's pretty funny. They'd run out pretty quick if all they did was heal. Give me the dps these classes provide over a halfassed heal. Paladins may group heal impressively once in a while but a main healer or threat? :lmao:

Dreleen
07-25-2005, 05:44 AM
As my main, I have and continue to regularly invite Druids as my primary healers because I trust them more than Clerics.:lmao:


I get that alot too... i wonder why that is? teehee! I think it has to do with all the kiting we do in out life times. I think our sense of timing is more keen. We know how to survive when the crap hits the fan! LOL!:rolling:

Lluwenae
07-26-2005, 03:01 PM
Yes Dreleen i do think our timing is more keen, but i think it's because we know we can't rez our mistakes so we have an incentive to not slack, except situations where nothing in the world could have saved their butts. On a side note bards are the "jack of all trades" has been since the beginning of EQ and was how they were described in the manual, so there is no reason we can't be the best in something because of a description that was never officially attributed to us. Sorry to bring up the "jack of all trades" bit, but i keep seeing it in alot of places attributed to druids that never should have been.

As for pallies, rangers and what not... they dont have the mana regen we do and heals kill them mana wise not to mention they aren't expected to sit and get it back, they are expected to DPS or tank in the pallies case. I play a Pally who is lvl 68, I can tell you that while i do have a 1 sec/1k heal loaded it's not easy for me to just quick heal someone while i'm tanking. In other words i really dont' have a problem with their heals getting buffed up a little, except i never noticed the pallies heal getting a bump during that patch or any after..... only rangers/beast. If anyone can tell me which pally heal or heals i'd appreciate it=)

Lluwenae Trefendil
Druid of Tunare
Bristlebane

Dreleen
07-26-2005, 07:04 PM
I stand corrected we were refered to as the "catch all class" specializing in nothing cept being a travel companion.

Pricilla
08-12-2005, 02:37 PM
That was the point of increasing hybrid heals.

Before the change it was imposible for ran and bst to have any impact with heals during fights. Even with the increase you should consider:

As pointed out hybrid gear selection 1st and foremost goes to arceive their primarry mission. For Bst/Ranger thats dps. anything else comes far behind.

When do you think BST/Ranger select healing benefits compared to priests ? Granted dru with their deversity of things they could fokus on might take then last too (if she/he isnt into grouping). Again:DPS and survivabillity comes way 1st in 99% off all cases.

Paladins are a different matter thogh they are partly cleric and have a different job anyway (main tanking,grouphealing and stuning compared to dps/snare for ranger or dps/slow/manaregen for bst )

cya

Chidori Kaname 70 Halfling Ranger of Karana (260AA)

noirblood
08-12-2005, 06:56 PM
This is a little off-topic but was mentioned in one of the above posts. I don't get why people have such a hard time starting groups? Druids are a great group-starting class because we can fill so many roles.

All you have to do is check LFG, guildchat, etc. for a slower, healer, tank, puller, and a dpser. We can also fill 3 of those roles if nobody is available. There are ALWAYS tanks and dps available so the only thing that is really tough to get is a slower. Beyond that all you need to know is how to use the /tell command, how to get to and establish a camp in your chosen zone, and the patience to wait for your groupies to arrive. It's not rocket science, and you get to be in control!

Eldrynn
08-27-2005, 04:00 AM
In my 4 year career so far, i still have trouble getting XP groups =(

wanderinglefty
09-01-2005, 03:54 AM
I don't have problems getting dps'ers. Tanks and slowers aye theres the rub.

Aires
09-01-2005, 11:22 PM
The only groups I tend to get anymore are for the Creator Don mission which ive done to the point it almost makes me sick :P I did however get a group at tables last week that was absolute heaven.

eaglesclaw_bert
09-14-2005, 01:24 AM
What druids need is a better fast heal. I would even be happy if it was like 2k hp at 1.8casting time. Were talking not nearly as good as clerics, but enough to help us out in a pinch. Hell, make it poorly mana efficient i personally dont care, we NEED a fast heal.

Also to those of you putting in numbers of mana to hp ratios that show chloro being 3.75 / 3k some hp = almost 5hp per mana. that is pretty incorrect. You have to remember that chloro has a range of hp it can heal. Right now my heal *can* hit for like 4300ish non crit, but it also only hits for 3500-3700 a good amount of the time. I can solo heal in RSS with chloro, but if the enc gets aggro and doesn't have rune up or something? lol that 3.2(with my focus) casting time isn't going to save his butt.

Juniper
09-14-2005, 02:32 AM
Your Enchanter should know what the hell he's up against before setting foot into RSS.

Chloro that's focused should do the trick, it's just a matter of timing out heals. 1.8 second heal won't save anyone who is an idiot in the first place.

Gamli
09-14-2005, 07:04 AM
I have to agree even the ancient heal is not that great with the long cast time.

if your guild gets ancient spells you probably can get yourselfs a pair of oow tier 2 gloves with 30% spell haste on heals. makes ancient chlorobon 2.3 sec cast time.

Fenlayen
09-15-2005, 07:32 AM
if your guild gets ancient spells you probably can get yourselfs a pair of oow tier 2 gloves with 30% spell haste on heals. makes ancient chlorobon 2.3 sec cast time.

Your sig supposed to double up that way ? or something wrong my end ?

Fenier
09-18-2005, 04:21 AM
DoD saw the additions of:

Gift of Mana
Abundant Healing
Convergance of Spirits
Skin of the Reptile

Gift of Mana, when it works is a awesome way to heal with a high mana cost heal for nearly no mana.

Abundant Healing has a chance to add a HoT componant to our direct heals.

Convergance of Spirits: While this gets rid of our group heal, is a direct Instant Cast heal with a HoT attached.

Skin of the Reptile is a direct 600 base heal which can proc, and procs often whenever a mob swings at the person with the buff.

I would no longer say we are drastically wanting for anything heal wise.

Adrius
09-18-2005, 05:27 AM
you ppl whine to much, if you cant get a group MAKE ONE, simple.

and no hybrids havent, all though paladins do get group heals which is usefull but they are still not better healers then us Druid is Second to most Potential healer in EQ besides Cleric.

They Nerfed the Cold Nukes Because Orginally Fire Nukes Where allways Our Most Powerfull Nuke, so like its a "Traditional" thing. i kite in pofire? they nerfed the cold nukes, and im happy they did, because the cold debuff is jack**** compared to the fire debuff, and using fire nukes out of a non-fire resistant area is allways the most efficent, ive allways used fire nukes no matter what, just because of there pure efficency.

Adrius
09-18-2005, 07:56 AM
opeth rocks btw Eldrynn (http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/member.php?u=4811)

Woodelfous
10-02-2005, 01:29 PM
The heal time on our heals doesn't really bother me. BoD and worn spell haste fix that for the most part. If you are having issues with your heals not landing then you aren't paying enough attention to HoTT. I'm usually by my self on raids healing my group. I haven't ever hand an issue with my heals being too slow.

MariuzDevereux
10-25-2005, 05:08 PM
For the Record, almost every casting class gets GoM. Every Priest Class gets the Abundant Healing. Convergence is.... decent, hardly worth it, would rather have a REAL HoTT spell, and Reptile Skin is way behind the times... we shoulda had that 2 expansions ago to help out.

GIVE US A DAMN GROUP HEAL AND A HOTT, GEEZ!

Eldrynn
10-26-2005, 12:50 PM
opeth rocks btw Eldrynn (http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/member.php?u=4811)
Yes, yes they do. Have the new Ghost Reveries album? It rocks!!!

Oh, and is there still a Vah Shir Bard in Cold Fury named Neekki? He's an aussie that came from Emarr in my old guild. Hope he's doing well.

Woodelfous
10-26-2005, 01:07 PM
Half the fun of being a druid is the challenge of healing. If it were easy rangers would do it. You just gotta learn to cope with it. I can innately estimate how much dmg some one is going to take from X mobe in Y zone. HoT only helps on one thing...... that's healing Kiters on splitting mobs in Tacvi.....then again we get silent casting so it's not as big of a deal now.

Dari
10-29-2005, 11:12 PM
Reptile skin is decent. Hardly worth getting excited over considering the short duration and high mana cost. Still like to see a faster "fast" heal or at least take our AA "fast heal" OFF the SOTG timer. That was a really ****ty thing to do. Bad enough SOE only gives us a truly fast heal once every 15 min, but then to tie it to our only group heal sucked lemons.

Woodelfous
10-30-2005, 07:54 PM
There really hasn't been that many times where i needed to use both SotG and CoS under 15 min form eachother. It would be nice to have though....I suppose if they were on different timers, a CoS rotation might be nice on some events.