View Full Forums : Command of Tunare charm-lvl should be increased - YES/NO ?


malkyr
11-28-2002, 08:41 PM
I finally got my HoH key last night (after doing the quest with a single guild grp - not killing AD) and went to explore the zone. Nice place, plenty of room to move etc .. but I am limited to root/dots for soloing which sucks.

Then I found these Wrulon guards and they are tagged as animals. So I whip out CoT and when tried casting it I get the "Your target is too high a lvl for your charm spell" msg. This happened in PoN as well when I tried to charm the horses that guard Vekhiz the Shade. Both mobs are 62 btw so that sets our charm lvl at 61.

Now Chanters get to solo in HoH just fine .. I mean they can solo everywhere else as it is and I have no probs with that ... but I find it wrong that their charm lvl is 64 (correct me if I am wrong here) and ours is 61. Yes they are supposed to be masters of charming and for that they can charm ANYTHING. But we druids are supposed to be masters of nature (pls dont give me the protector of nature excuse ...) and as we are severly rescricted with our charms (animals only - as it should be I agree) I believe our charm lvl should also be 64 or whatever is max possible for enchanters.

Now I have effectively charm-killed my way thru to 65 ... its a great ability and gives us the solo capability that we are supposed to have. As its already a pain to form grps in PoP withouth slower (yes I know it can be done .. but it takes TIME) I find logging on for a few hrs and charm-killing a mob to be quiet productive. It is bad enough they nerfed quadding due to a very minimal porting of the community that was attempting it (I was not one of those) but due to their inability to code effectively to make mobs immune to snare and not to root (spells got to have a special id .. I dont know why they dont make it immune to a specific id then ...) charm-soloing / root-dootting is not an option (well it is but extremly risky) in PoV. and may areas of PoS.

So I am posting here to see what my fellow druids think. I am hoping I get support of the druid community and if its high enough VI might take notice and change the lvl of the animals we can charm.

Gilu FreeWind
11-28-2002, 09:23 PM
get a group ?
.. muahahaa :p

Gilu FreeWind
11-28-2002, 09:29 PM
no, seriously,

You can quad in HoH in some places, but most people i've seen quad there where using a pathing bug so they won't get beated to death at any moment :)
What do you prefer then ?
a. to quad using a bug in the mobs pathing (i don't like poor excuse)
b. to single kill some mobs while you are charming a wurlong young :p lol
c. to get a group and get as much xp as if you were soloing (HoH is that)

I have some feedbacks from people who thinks that in HoH it's far better to get in a group (as a druid, of course) because soloing there gives less xp (and aaxp).

muahahahaa :p

malkyr
11-28-2002, 10:27 PM
d. go to druids grove and try and generate support for the charm lvl to be increased :)

I am one of the 2 ppl from my guild who have HoH key. We have some dedicated ppl farming the quest but the rare drop on perilium bites. And frankly farming a light-blue/green con zone for a quest item is just plain stupid imo.

As for grps yeah I can get them but I prefer soloing because in my experience unless its a guild only grp it usually sucks big time.

I am not looking for suggestion on how to get xp ... I am quiet easily able to get an AA pt every 45 mins if need be (not the fastest but not crap either). What I am looking for is the opinions of other druids in regards to charm .. we have this spell but I do not believe it is being utilised to its full effect.

Malkyr Tai'Shar - Aurora Noctum - The Tribunal

Tils
11-29-2002, 12:25 AM
Personally I cant see it going to happen. Having a pet which hits for 500+ is well kinda overpowering for any class even though yes the duriation is random with snare and heals providing you dont pick a summoner you have little problems. Now..what I would have liked to see is in HoH that maybe 1 out of 10 guards are low enough to charm. Then theres lots of risk to find a correct level guard but your not getting a 600+ hitting monster.

Tils

Cronuus
11-29-2002, 02:58 AM
Level limit is 60...
Since to get our charm you need specral parchment and is limited to level 60 animals, but chanter's is limited to level 64 and also takes spectral parchments, our should be limited to level 63... enchanters are still the best at charming since ours is alot more limited.
In POS we can already charm tripple 600 hitting mobs that dont summon... and enchanters can mez/slow which works as well as our snare/heals.

Geddine
11-30-2002, 03:18 PM
I think the charms should be of equal level. The fact that Enchanters can do any mob is enough of an advantage over any other classes charm.
Whats the highest mob a necro can charm -thats if they got a new charm also? Then again their Wake the Dead surely makes up for any charm spell.

Bizitt
12-01-2002, 08:44 PM
Necros get a 65 charm that works on up to level 65.

I'd not mind one for animals :) .

L1ndara
12-01-2002, 10:37 PM
<strong>You can quad in HoH in some places, but most people i've seen quad there where using a pathing bug so they won't get beated to death at any moment</strong>

Never had to use a pathing bug. I had to AVOID pathing bugs so the 4 mobs didn't all walk off in different directions and make quadding impossible, but thats a different problem. Ensnare slows the mobs enough to get RoK off easily without spell casting haste or ER focus (although I have quick damage 3.) If mobs are coming close to you then get a focus item or use Bonds of Tunare.

The druid charm as it stands is a tiny upgrade to CoK. Basically any mob you'd use CoK on that might be too high by a level or two like some WW animals or half the blood ravens in PoN, then Tunare's Command is good for that. Anything you couldn't almost already charm with CoK, TC either won't land on or you don't want to charm it generally anyway since the charm won't last long enough to be useful or it will summon you and rip you into tiny little peices.

corlathist
12-03-2002, 05:30 AM
Is it even level 60? I couldnt charm the damn frogs in PoS
which was blue to my level 62 2 Box.

I am so so sick of our damn animal line spells. They should be EQUAL to the undead line of spells for necromancer. They should be EQUAL to enchanter line of spells with thier ANIMAL only tag.

Klarabell
12-03-2002, 09:26 AM
Remember Corlathist, Common Sense is not common at Sony.

Deneldor2
12-03-2002, 09:33 AM
Gets my vote. As you might have seen in another thread I'm mildly annoyed that we are not the equal of the necro line.

Fayne Dethe
12-03-2002, 11:10 AM
I think the spell needs to be revamped in more than one way. Both the necro and enchanter charm spell is 5 second cast time, both the enchanter and necro charm have negative resist modifier (enchanter is neg 50, necro is neg 100), and both the necro and enchanter spells can be used on level 64 and under mobs (some say even level 65 on necro charm). I can see people making the argument that enchanter charms should be superior even though they can charm any mob they want, but why should the necro charm spell be so superior compared to druids (necros can even slow mobs, can snare mobs, can haste their pets, and have some ability to heal pets with that 1k pet heal).

I think Command of Tunare should be adjusted to a 5 second cast time similar to the other spells, and should work on either level 64 or 63 and under animals. Both necros and enchanters also get a negative resist modifier, but that can slide as long as cast time and mob level gets adjusted.

Matafleur Mistwalker
12-03-2002, 04:34 PM
I'm very happy with CoT, after the level limit of CoK it's a breath of fresh air in more ways than one.

So what if we can't do what necros or enchanters can do, stop looking whether or not the grass is greener and go out and enjoy your spell.

Role Meggido
12-03-2002, 05:39 PM
Bah, this is a class balance forum. Its entire point is to try and examine the issue of position of Druids relative to other classes.

Fayne Dethe
12-03-2002, 06:20 PM
its not a grass is greener, its about class equality. With the druid charm limited as it is to animals, why should the charm be punished with longer cast times, much lower level limit, and more resistant? I'm not saying it needs to be equilavent to enchanter or necro charms but it shouldnt be so far behind them (especially the necro charm). That is why I suggested raising the level to 63 and reducing cast time some.

Palarran
12-03-2002, 07:18 PM
It's extremely powerful as is in some places, I can't see it getting an upgrade...

For lower cast times, maybe look into a ceramic skull of decay? (Made with pottery, effect affliction haste IV...should lower cast time by 33%?) I've been meaning to try to get one for myself.

Klarabell
12-03-2002, 09:33 PM
Enchanter using charm in HoH... 17 AA's in 10 hours.

Please please please let me have one THIRD that power lol.

malkyr
12-03-2002, 11:56 PM
We could have that power easily if our spell was balanced. Wrulons in HoH can be charmed if the lvl limit was increased to 64. And then we would be as good as chanters.

Also PoP charmed pets make nice rampage tanks if you dont mind a little risk factor ;)

But with Druid/Mage/Chanter MR Debuff Charm will not break anytime soon.

Malkyr

Rimidal
12-04-2002, 02:53 AM
whine whine whine
I play an enchanter and you crackhead druids should be lucky you even get charm

raise the level limit my @#%$. lvl 60 charm cap for a druid is too high anyway

you can already quad and nuke almost as good as a wiz, also heal almost as good as a cleric.
now you want to charm as good as an enc? whats next, res and mezzes?
please stfu and die

Geddine
12-04-2002, 03:02 AM
Well Rimidal if you have nothing better to say, maybe you should go find another board to play on.

The fact that there are scarce mobs tagged as animals to start with severely limits this spell. How about they make the enchanter and necro versions limit of 60. I'll be happy with that. What if Verant limited Enchanters in some way, I'm sure a limit of only being able to charm non-animal non-undead mobs would be a nice subtraction from the game. We can all attack other classes.

I just can not find one single valid reason why Verant would limit Druids to 60 when the other 2 charm classes can go 4 and 5 levels higher. Not only that the casting time is longer, and the level limit lower, but there are decided less targets to pick from than either of the other 2 classes.

Rimidal
12-04-2002, 03:31 AM
maybe cause you weren't intended to charm as good as an enc?
just maybe cause you already got a billion other abilities and ways to solo and group?

well wow, you want your charm cap higher because other classes cap higher
I'd like enchanters to get some heals too cause druids shamand and clerics can heal so why can't I?
also I'd like ports cause other classes get it
also I'd like better nukes and dots because other classes get better ones

hows that for logic?

look at the pattern of your charm spells. you'll notice they all cap much lower than the level you get it at.
maybe thats cause its INTENDED? can you get that through your head
imo you shouldn't even be able to charm at all. it totally doens't make any sense
what on earth is the balance reason for giving druids charm in the first place
and who is the crack head who gave you Dire Charm anyway?

class balance my @#%$. this is just whinging

Kulothar
12-04-2002, 05:35 AM
Druids were given charm because it is a class ability. And yes a druid should charm animals (and IMHO plants, rocks, water etc) as well as a necro charms undead. The Crackhead you refer to is Verant when they designed the class. Druid animal charming goes back to when the class was introduced to RPG's in D&D in 1976 and has carried through its various incarnations in gaming.

The billions of other abilities you refer to are also offset by other ablities of other classes that druids do not get. No class is unigue either in its abilities or limitations. You got gates, Sow and can buy heal items and potions so your complaint on those isn't valid to begin with no matter what your class is.

Because three classes share an ability does not mean that one of them should be less qualified other than the class restrictions. If that were the case there would be a valid arguement that Necros also should be capped or that Encs could not charm Animals, Plants or Undead. The same would apply to putting a cap on the level of mob an Enc or Bard can slow since Shaman are better slowers or putting a cap on the level of mob that Dru, Enc, Mag, etc can nuke since Wizzies are the best Nukers.

Druids already have more agro on charms, which for roleplay purposes makes no sence, so personnally I do not agree with the level caps. After all, raising them should make more people happy as there would be more druids dieing from Charm agro when it breaks or is resisted. From the comments I have seen here, dead druids would please some people.

Deneldor2
12-04-2002, 06:46 AM
"imo you shouldn't even be able to charm at all. it totally doens't make any sense"

Anyone think this is his first RPG? :)

Hurk
12-04-2002, 08:02 AM
Druid is not primarily a charming class. through years of association with nature, you can invoke the power of your deity on occasion to aid, you, but you are not hte mind and will being Enchanters and Necros.

you charm the "nice" way, they charm the mean way. Charm is not a center skill for druids the way it is for enchanters and necros. (which are both already pet classes)

malkyr
12-04-2002, 08:12 AM
ROFL the excuses ppl come up with to justify their point of view .. cracks me up. The best one is we charm the "nice" way ... must be why my pet wants to tear me a new one when charm breaks :)

Hurk
12-04-2002, 08:34 AM
Ok so you would prefer than I say STFU your too powerful already like everyone else or give a explination that makes some sense?

bottom line is druids are not enchanters or necros. they are pet classes, charm is extension of pet abilities. be glad your not level capped under 50 like you should be.

Fayne Dethe
12-04-2002, 09:05 AM
Rimidal, enchanters arent truly a pet class either by the summoned pet standard - their normal pets are almost as much a joke as the druid summoned bear. The true solo power of the enchanter lies through his charms/slow - no other class can quickly solo clear an entire basement in HoH and make an AA every 40 minutes (for everyone else it generally takes 1.5-2 hrs per AA in PoP). Not to mention how powerful it is to be able to charm almost any level 64 and under mobs in any zone (not many high level animals except a few PoP zones). I didnt bring this up earlier because I was trying to avoid class comparisons and was saying the new charm spells should be more equivalent to each other. Plus, all your complaints about druid soloing - necros can do it better, and the necro charm is even more powerful than the enchanter charm, albiet limited to undead.

Firemynd
12-04-2002, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>bottom line is druids are not enchanters or necros. they are pet classes, charm is extension of pet abilities. be glad your not level capped under 50 like you should be. [/quote]

No, we are not enchanters or necros. They have their strengths and weaknesses just like druids have. They also possess some abilities which they share with other classes, just like druids do; and some abilities unique to their own.

Charming is a shared ability, and Verant made it quite clear that Druids were among the three classes intended to possess a special influence over other creatures. In our case, that influence is over animals.

If you have any experience whatsoever with druids in EQ, you should know that druids have traditionally had a closer affinity to NPC animals than all other classes; some might even argue that we should have a greater influence over animals than enchanters do. But as it stands right now, enchanters can charm animal mobs as well as they can charm any other type of mob.

We aren't asking for enchanters to be excluded from our territory (nature/animals), but we are asking that druids be at least as good with animals as chanters are.

As for being "too powerful" -- well, I'd wager that you think all classes are too powerful except the one you play. If you honestly and objectively thought druids were all that mighty, you'd be playing the class yourself, because you obviously aren't the type of person who picks the more challenging path to travel. Case in point: you didn't exactly challenge yourself to come up with anything better than the same half-baked, tired old, sweeping generalization about druids that every other troll has posted here.

Remember: this board is about class balance, not class envy. Perhaps you mistakenly confused the two when you started typing your trollish nonsense.

~Firemynd

malkyr
12-04-2002, 09:14 AM
You explanation does not make sense. Its one of the many millions anyone can come up with ... which as you indicated is trying to say that YOU believe we are too powerfull.

Then you come up with the pet-class excuse ... well why is it that mage - the masters of pet classes dont even get a charm till lvl 65 which works on summoned pets only .. lol that in itself is a joke. Or BST?

And then eventually the be glad you dont have it bad excuse. I dont understand the mentality that just cause we are doing well we stop stop and thank god and never try and better ourselves.

Lets deal with the facts ... do Druids get charm - YES. And based on the pattern listed below I think we should be able to charm up to 64:

Chanters - Masters of Charm - Can charm ANYTHING till 64
Necros - Masters of Undead - Can charm ANY UNDEAD till 64
Druids - Masters of Nature - Can charm ANY ANIMAL till 64 (currently only 60 tho)

This is not because if we dont get the lvl increase we will suddenly start to suck .. or suddenly become a super-class. I mean hell ... the charm is restricted to ANIMALS. But for the avg and high end druid ... it provides an alternate soloing option specially when in zones like HoH and PoS and PoV animal-tagged mobs exist. So givign us this charm will not affect the game balance imo, but simply provide another tool for us.

Atm we are restricted to "some" mobs in PoS that we can charm effectively (iirc thats 6 frogs in the forest giant area). The frogs are PoV are useless now with the snare-nerf. Mobs in PoD and PoN are light-blue. And HoH is out of bounds due to the lvl restriction. I think the solution is quiet obvious.

Rimidal
12-05-2002, 01:22 AM
you keep saying other people's reasoning is stupid Malkyr, but your reasoning is even more stupid

your ENTIRE BASIS OF THE ARGUMENT AND YOUR ENTIRE REASON for this thread is
"we should get it because others do"

there is absoultely no balance reason why you should get higher charm cap. that's because you are already powerful enough and your charm already caps higher than it should IMO
let me repeat this

YOU HAVE NO VALID ARGUMENT EXCEPT "they get it so we should to"

if you can state one valid balance issue reason why druids should have lvl 64 cap charm instead of level 60, please say so
your other charm spells cap much lower, so why should your pop one be any different? it is already way high compared to other charms you get.

also, enchanter pet isn't to be compared to a druid pet
at level 62 we get a level 58 pet that quads for 60. with 9 AAs we are able to give it full line of commands so it is exactly like a normal pet. only weakness is that it has low hps

Rimidal
12-05-2002, 01:24 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think the solution is quiet obvious. [/quote]

yeah it is
stop ****en whinging and get a group

Jimoin
12-05-2002, 01:46 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Command of Tunare charm-lvl should be increased - YES/NO [/quote]

@#%$ no!

Druids shouldn't even be able to charm animals at all, Shaman should have that role. After all we are meant to be at one with the animal spirit or something. We can imbue the spirits of the animals onto others but not control animals? wtf?

We had our charm animal line nerfed long ago and I want it back. This is outrageous that druids want YET more. They can Heal better than us, they can DoT better than us, they can Nuke better than us, port and now want more from an ability they should never have had in the first place. OMG so unfair!

Druids should stick to plants and vegetables and @#%$, stay away from my animals!

Lucifar Lyrihym
12-05-2002, 01:55 AM
and bards are stuck with a 64 song thats limited to level 57. Druids should be the last of the charming classes asking for a HIGHER cap.

nither bards nor chanters can heal their pets or themsleves. Druid even have SoW and snare which enchanters dont, druid charming comes with so few of the risks that the other classes have. To give them an even more powerfull charm ontop of all the utility to go with the charm is just ludicrous.

you act like the charm being restricted to animals reduces its power, but it doesnt. It just reduces the number of places it can be used. Having fewer places to use charm does not make the charm any less powerfull when you are in one of those places.

malkyr
12-05-2002, 02:01 AM
Sigh I must apologise for these 2 morons - Rimi and Jim - fellow guildmates who had to come post here just to oppose me LOL.

Anyway down to business :)

If a class is given the ability to charm then it stands to reason they must have a few options in a game that is played by thousands. Based on the level adjustments from VI non-pop zones are no longer XP spots at 65. Even PoI, PoN and PoD are not valid for charming or XPing. Only zone thats a viable option is PoS and only 1 location in the whole zone. And with PoS/PoV turning into the new velks the next tier is the next step to go for XP - solo or groupwise.

So ... lets give druids a lvl 63 spell that allows us to charm animals and then give ALL the druids in the game only ONE location where they can utilise this spell effectively in solo or group mode.

And rimidal your "valid" argument is that we are too powerfull. That is quiet amusing coming from a player that has 200 AA due to soloing in HoH with charm, duos Arena and HoT and member of a class that has recently soloed Wuoshi. So if giving us this lvl 64 limit is soo unbalancing to the game maybe we should all balance the game by taking your "overpowered" class's limit down ?)

If you read the 2nd last paragraph in my post you will find the answer to your questions. And as for you Jim u spaz !!! you want animals .. well go to rimi's house and ask for some sheep .. I am sure he has a surplus :)

Rimidal
12-05-2002, 02:06 AM
yeah your last 2 paragraphs basically say
"I want higher cap cause other classes get it"

which I said doesn't work. and yet again you prove you have no valid argument

and yeah I'm a guildmate but I'd still think you're equally retarted if I wasn't. I'm not posting here "just to oppose you" but to state how retarted you are for thinking you deserve a higher lvl cap on your charms.

and again, I've asked you multiple times. tell me why you desrve a higher level cap on your charms that DOESNT INVOLVE SAYING "because other classes get it"

stop repeating yourself over and over. I already stated your argument is not valid. so have you got another argument or you're gonna keep saying the same thing over and over. you gonna keep repeating yourself or present a valid argument? or just keep saying the same thing over and over

Lucifar Lyrihym
12-05-2002, 02:18 AM
the point i tried to make before malkyr is that druids have tools that make using charm in a solo situation too easy/powerful. Its true that enchanters get a higher cap, but they dont have those tools. Druids can sow themsleves, and have a 3k heal for 400 mana, plus other fast heals they can use on themsleves. Enchanters dont have any of that available to them. They would make it a LOT easier to charm.

Your claiming your cap should go up becuase enchanters is higher, I bet you would quickly backtrack if you had sacrafice your ability to heal and sow in order to get the ability to the same level as an enchanter.

Its exactly the same reason bards charm is capped at level 57. Beucase we, like druids, have other abilities that make abusing the charm solo far too easy to acomplish.

Its true that right now, a really skilled enchanter can get XP faster than anyone else in the game. Thankfully, the number of enchanters who can do this is small right now. However, thats no justification for druids to be given the same charm, and consequently for it to be far EASIER for them to solo that way than other classes.

Cronuus
12-05-2002, 02:19 AM
Call of karana caps at 53, we get it at 52...

We should get a higher level cap so that we can use charm effectively in zones like HOH like enchanters can.

malkyr
12-05-2002, 02:27 AM
And you are too stupid to read whats written right in front of you. We need the level increase to make charm a VIABLE option .. which it is not at 65 with only ONE location to charm effectively in. Read that again ... we need the lvl increased so we can actually charm mobs in zones other than PoS ... what is the point of having animal-tagged mobs in zones such as HoH if we are not able to charm them.

And evening up our levels IS a valid argument. What is your argument .. that it will make us too powerful .. in that case feel free to go and petition that your class should have its charm lvl lowered to put you in balance with the other classes.

What I see from you is simple - class envy. My class gets the highest lvl and I cant stand the fact that other classes might add up to me.

If we have been given charm it has to be a viable tool ... not only to get us to 65 (which it does atm) but also for post 65 and AA acquisition which it does NOT. Increasing this level will make it a viable tool. Now do you have a VALID argument for us not getting this besides your lame whining that druids are too powerful and pathethic class envy?

Comprende Sherlock?

And Lucifar, yes it is true we get snare which can make it easy for charm chanters can to an extent counteract with stun/mez. I will give you that but heal is not much of an option imo. Yes we can heal 3k but on a mob with around 20k hp's it drains us of mana quiet fast .. which in a way prevents of from flying thru and killing everything. And chanters although not having a heal spell are not disadvantaged by this due to the code which allows the mob to get full hp within 20 secs if the mob does not have aggro - easy for a chanter to do. And restricting druids with charm is simple enough and used already - we can ONLY charm animals .. change the animal tag and you can limit our charming capabilities. But in zones with viable animal-tagged targets we SHOULD be able to charm them.

Eurisco
12-05-2002, 02:34 AM
Malkyr your have not presented any argument for why druids cap should be increased to lvl 64.

Seems to me your just upset u cant solo in as many places with charm as enchanters can. Maybe you shoul dbe asking for more Animal mobs in zones and not a high lvl cap on your spell.

Enchanters, Necros, Druids are all different classes, just because one class has one ability is no reason another should have the same. So present an argument for why druids should get a higher lvl charm or please STFU, stop your bitching.

I cant even believe this thread made it to 2 pages, matbe 3 now, and there is no argument in the whole thing.

If you think druids being able to charm lvl 64 mobs will make druids "a more balanced class" please say why, just because chanters can charm different mobs than you has nothing to do with druids being unbalanced, and so what if u cant charm mobs in HoH, chanters cant charm mobs in PoNb to, u dont see us bitching on our "enchanter web boards".

Funny how your not even getting support from other druids on this one.

Eurisko Mezinator!
65th Enc

P.S. Rimi really should be banned from posting msgs from all boards.

Rimidal
12-05-2002, 02:36 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>what is the point of having animal-tagged mobs in zones such as HoH if we are not able to charm them.[/quote]

lol
maybe cause you're not supposed to charm every single animal mob?

well ok enchanters can charm ANYTHING!@!@ OMG!@~!!!
so EVERY MOB SHOULD BE LEVEL 64 so we can charm it! or we should have NO LEVEL CAP

and yeah, combined with your ability to heal, INSTANT EVAC, Spirit of Eagle, snare mobs, having more significantly more hp/ac than an enc, heal yourself... yeah I do think druids are powerful enough
combined with awesome dots, nukes, raid-level usefulness heals

you need to accept and be grateful for what you got

you want class balance ? hows enchanters than
wow look most high lvl raid mobs are flagged unmezzable, my nukes suck, my dots are laughable, shamans always over-write my slows
I guess tash and wait for people needing rebuffs. Gr8 fun FRND

Lucifar Lyrihym
12-05-2002, 02:44 AM
lot of flaws in that logic malk,

druids can use the same 'code' to CH their mob, i assume you are unaware of how the mob code works and thats why you think its something enchanter exclusive.. its not.. its smart person exclusive.

hey bards cant charm in PoV/PoS and bards have always been a lot more charm centric than druids, yet I dont feel that this means WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO CHARM everywhere.. that just comes across as greed/envy, tho I accept thats a matter of opinion there.

what you want is simple. you want the ability for druids to solo XP at a rate of one AA every 30 minutes, with hardly any risk at all (which is due to the other utility spells that druids possess). The ability to solo like that totally ruins any semblacne of class/group/xp balance in the game. Yes, perhaps its unfair that for the first time ever, druids arnt at the top of the pack for solo XP. Remeber that there are 12 other classes who are still behind druids as far as solo XP goes. Allowing all the druids to double their potential XP rate IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I think you know that... so why are you even asking for the charm cap to be raised? Perhaps bards should get a self only XP song, mabey 1 aa every 30 minutes to catch up to a couple of Enchnaters and Throngs of new improved druids. My justification is that you can solo really fast. Sounds good?

malkyr
12-05-2002, 03:31 AM
No sounds wrong.

Yes the heal-code can be used by anyone so chanters can heal their pets as well as us if they are as you indicated smart. So thats one less thing they can stop whining about.

Problem is not the XP rate .. problem is us not being able to utilise the tool we have. The fact that these mobs give great XP is irrelevent. Yes its nice but simple reduce the XP they give or nerf the charm pets as we talked earlier so they do half dmg and you resolve the XP problem while still giving druids a viable tool.

You seem to be under the impression that I want to follow rimi's example and pharm AA as much as I can. This is not so else I could have easily got 130 plus by now. What I want is the ability to solo. I am sick of PoS .. thats all I do now with soloing. No other zone is accesible to me in regards of proper XP (blue cons). And with only 6-8 frogs availiable for charm, and rangers and wizzies and other druids competeing for these mobs solo XP options are extremly limited.

The only way atm to give druids more options is to increase the levels so we can charm in HoH and any further zones with animals (I have not go other flags so I dont know whats availiable). If VI are concerned about XP they can simply make pets take 50 percent XP like they used to or several other options ... does not remove the fact that we NEED more than ONE location to charm-solo in.

Secondary options would be to lower the lvl of the animals in HoH and if VI are willing to do this I will accept that .. but either way I want to be able to charm-solo someplace beside PoS. The only other option to solo is quad kite (single lag spike in PoP = death) or root/dot (gee its fun root/dotting a 20k mob ... /snore).

Either way you are assuming my motive is greed. Try another motive - flexibility.

Lucifar Lyrihym
12-05-2002, 03:56 AM
Ok, so you have backtracked a little bit, rahter than wanting your charm to have a higher level cap, you want more mobs in your level range that you can charm. If you had come out and say this at the start, we probably wouldnt be on the 3rd page already. I am far more simpathetic to this newer version of your request.

Perhaps if you spent some more time in HoH you would have found the animals that you can charm. It seems from your post, you have not located them yet. Keep searching, they are there. PoD has rats I beleive? I see a lot of druids solo with charm there, perhaps you havent discovered that zone either if you think that PoS is your only option. Its the large sewage pipe looking thing out to the right when you enter PoT. ;) You know perfectly well that you can charm in other PoP zones, but the XP isnt as fast as you want with the mobs in those zones becuase they dont quad for 400 like you would like.

You said you wanted to be able to solo? Are you serious? your a druid asking to be able to solo? There are a LOT more druids soloing in PoP than any other class. Please tell the whole truth. What you want is the ability to solo faster. Faster than people can get in groups. Once apon a time, druids could ignore grouping and get faster XP quad kiting. PoP gave power back to groups and now a good group can get XP just as fast as most druids can quad it. You can still solo without a group, without a level 64 charm cap, by the old method of kiting. But it seems that this isnt good enough for you anymore? How dare Joe warrior, or Fred cleric be able to XP in groups at the same speed as your solo!

First you claimed it was about being able to solo at all. You can still kite, duh, didn't fool anyone there.

Second you claimed that infact its becuase you want to be able to solo in a larger variety of ways? bzzzt, wrong again, those zones you talk about DO infact have mobs you can charm, they just dont happen to hit for quad 400 that would suit a 30min per AA rate you really want.

next reason please.

malkyr
12-05-2002, 04:03 AM
Read the whole post ... sigh

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
No other zone is accesible to me in regards of proper XP <strong>(blue cons).</strong>
[/quote]

Lucifar Lyrihym
12-05-2002, 04:13 AM
We seem to have a differing opinion of what 'Propper XP' is. That statement indicates that your not satisfied with charmed mobs that do less than quad ~400. That seems to me like your motivation is wanting to solo faster XP. Yet you claim your motivation is wanting more places to solo rather than better XP. Your contradicting yourself there.

corlathist
12-05-2002, 05:02 AM
Enchanters are currently the Most Overpowered Class in Everquest. For them to come here and talk about "power"
is a joke.

With snare/root immunity so common, I never ever see Enchanter LFG calls more than once. ((Valor))

I'm also annoyed that enchanters can dire charm undead and animals. That really really needs to be addressed. All 3 Classes pay EQUAL 9 points for Dire Charm. But the value of those points is not close to equal. Nothing pisses me off more than seeing Enchanters in Valor with a DC frog or squire. Enchanters have complete access to suits of metal, but they also grab the animal and undead mobs put thier obviously for the other 2 charming classes.

As for the relative safety of charm soloing and efficiency.....
Man the enchanters coming here to whine are so full of .....
Let's poke holes in thier crappy logic. Enchanters but druids need lower cap because they can heal thier pet, and heal themselves if something goes wrong. Heal is just a form of damage MITIGATION, its not even the most efficient one.
Enchanters can "heal" thier pet more efficiently by slowing its opponents. They can also mitigate damage with the rune line. Which because it absorbs damage gives them plenty of time to Mez or recharm a failed charm. Hell a chanter charm soloing is both safer AND more efficient even when they use the same damn mob.


Now the other side, is they say well chanters are masters of charm so its okay they can charm higher levels. It's not even the comparison to chanters that pisses me off totally. Its the damn comparison with necromancers. Necromancer can charm higher level undead, can slow undead, can mez undead.
Because they are the "masters of undead" well Druids should have the same level caps and spells for animals.


Should have wrote that more into the petition on balance.

Deneldor2
12-05-2002, 05:31 AM
He's talking about exp at 65. Low blue is NOT exp, its a joke.

Firemynd
12-05-2002, 07:34 AM
Shaman asking for animal charm, and enchanter accusing druids of being too powerful? Sorry but you guys are visiting the wrong class board to think you'll get away with that sort of nonsense.

First of all, SoW is not very much faster than Innate Run Speed 3, which ALL classes get long before they even get to level 60. When someone says "but.. druids have sow!" - we're going to toss that right out the window. It's a very old and tired argument that you've been using as a crutch every time you want to talk about how powerful druids are. If you have 100+ AA points and somehow managed to skip Run Speed, buy a SoW potion and borrow a clue.

Now, for the few people mentioning druids being able to heal pets ... that's a pretty weak attempt to distract from the issue at hand, because 99% of the time, healing is the LAST thing you want to do with a non-DC pet.

The typical strategy is: Charm mob1, send it against mob2, and let them both whittle each other's hit points down, after mob1 finishes off mob2, you break charm and throw a small nuke or dot to finish off mob1. Rinse and repeat for mob3 and mob4, and so on. No need to buff pet or debuff mob except as needed to mitigate damage during the fight and make sure the pet has just enough health to kill the other mob.

Get adds? Use mez, unlike druids who have to attempt to get aggro away from pet, then pray snare/root works, and pray the adds aren't casters. If pet gets low, charm one of the other mobs ... unlike druids, who only have that option if the adds are animals.

Even with DC pets, chanters have gem-free runes to keep their pet's health up; they can also slow opponent mobs, lower their magic resists by substantial margin, dot/nuke as needed; and if grouped with any of the 5+ snare-capable classes, can easily fear kite.

Dealing with charm breaks is pretty simple when the chanter can simply mez the mob ... who needs snare? Take all the time you need to get it recharmed. And as for protecting him/herself, the chanter has three different types of runes (including AA rune) to prevent damage .. who needs heal?

So let's just put that whole argument to rest; enchanters definitely have advantages over druids.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ok, so you have backtracked a little bit, rahter than wanting your charm to have a higher level cap, you want more mobs in your level range that you can charm. If you had come out and say this at the start, we probably wouldnt be on the 3rd page already. I am far more simpathetic to this newer version of your request.[/quote]

I don't ask for your sympathy (and I don't even ask for you to spell it correctly), and perhaps Malkyr is backtracking but I'm not. You want us to give you a "balance reason" why druid charms should have the same level cap as an enchanter and I have provided that reason.

Druids, according to Verant, are one of the three main charming classes. Specifically, our ability to charm is due to having a stronger affinity with animals than any other class in the game. I am not asking to have a greater ability to charm animals than enchanters have, but I do think it is entirely fair for the purposes of class balance that druids would be able to charm animals as well as enchanters can charm animals.

Therefore, if enchanters can charm 64th level animals, druids should be able to charm 64th level animals. This doesn't have anything to do with other abilities considered part of class balance, because EACH of our classes has a fair share of other utility spells and abilities that the other doesn't have. Anyone with common sense could easily argue that enchanter utility greatly outweighs druid utility in the high end game.

~Firemynd

Fayne Dethe
12-05-2002, 10:02 AM
I agree with Firemynd. Initially other classes abilities werent talked about other than the one charm spell, but then Rimidal and others started to try to say how "overpowered" druid are compared to enchanters, shamans, etc rofl. Healing is a complete non-issue when it comes to pet charming - you are better off mana-wise killing the pets as you go along for xp once they get low on health. A druid might not even have that luxury with the rarity of animals to charm in zones, while enchanter can keep going charming new mobs (have someone try healing a high level charmed pet - you will see how little the druid "CH" really does). The sow/snare thing isnt really an issue either as mentioned by Firemynd. Enchanters are far more effective at dealing with root/snare immune mobs (ALOT of them in PoP) - stuns, mezzes, slow, and have componentless 1500 hp runes to help keep them alive. Thus, saying druids are so much better off than enchanters when it comes to charming is not a valid argument as to why the druid charm should be so much lower. The reason necros was brought into the argument is that some people would try to argue that "enchanters are masters of charm so no one should charm even close to them" when the necro charm is actually superior to Command of Druzzil for undead mobs. You cant kid yourself and say that other classes should not be brought into spell analysis, spells are supposed to be balanced around other classes.

There arent many high level animals to charm is the main reason the level cap was asked to be increased, while even necros and mages can charm high level class specific mobs (I'm sure mage charm wont be useful until Elemental Planes, but druid charm currently is very limited in its zone usefulness). Druids dont have any tools to deal with snare immune mobs other than one short stun that doesnt even work on alot of PoP mobs, and alot of the animals were changed to snare/root immune - that is why I feel it is appropriate to change cast time to 5 seconds. The 8 second cast time was initally put in when most mobs were snareable in PoP.

Aerillea
12-05-2002, 10:25 AM
Either A) they should increase the level the charm effects or B) Randomize the levels of the animal's we can charm with a 50/50 ratio of the animal being within range of charm.

Wrulan Guards in HoH for instance, can't be charmed with HoH, may them vary in levels that our charm can effecty and I think that's proper rvr for our charm.

Belkram Marwolf
12-08-2002, 06:37 PM
Charming isnt the only soloing option that Druids have. It is the only option Enchnaters have and healing themselves kinda isnt an option if it goes sour. Nor is snaring the mob to make things easier all around.

Little story about my server....today a Druid was quadding (yeah thats right quadding) in Plane of Valor. Mad, mad, mad exp doing this. Not the most uber of gear, flowing thought under 5 and I think she only has FT2 (choker and Ear). In any event combine root/rot, charm and quadding and you have more viable soloing options than any other class. Some dont have any option at all for soloing.

Enchanters are known for 2 things. Buffs (mind variety) and playing head games with mobs. Their DoTs and they nuking are very sub-par due to them having pre-eminence in these 2 areas. I dont think its unusual or out of line for them to do this not only a little better than druids but a LOT better than Druids.



Belkram Marrwolf

Gnizmo
12-08-2002, 08:37 PM
lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...ource=Test (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3355&source=Test)
Enchanter Charm.

lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...ource=Test (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3445&source=Test)
Druid Charm

lucy.fnord.net/spell.html...ource=Test (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3316&source=Test)
Necro Charm

Ok so people love to skew the info on these spells in favor of druids but there are a few major differences. First the encanter spell is a lvl higher than the druid spell, and the necro spell is 2 lvls higher(making it require a rune). This means that an enchanter must be a higher lvl to even try to cast the spell, and the necro must get a rune(oh so much harder than a spectral) AND be 2 lvls higher than the druid to try and cast it.

The duration is the other factor. The druid charm can last for 3 hours. Now I realize it usually wont, but the enchanter charm lasts a whole 7 min and the necro charm lasts 20 min. So while people love to point out the differnce in the cap for charm there is a reason. Yours has a greater potential duration and can be cast earlier than the enchanter charm. The druid charm can also be cast earlier than the necro charm and is WAY WAY easier to get.

Honestly, this is pathetic. The druid charm does have advantages over the other 2, which is why it has a lower cap. This is nothing more than class envy honestly. You see someone else capable of soloing in HoH with charm, so you must be able to. Heres a clue, VI HATES soloing. End of story. So they will not make changes just because you "need" more places to solo.

Now to the person saying you can fear kite in the planes I have one thig to say to you, ROFLMAO. Do you have any clue how fear works? See fear is capped. All fears mind you. They will not work on almost any 55+ mobs(heard tale of a few 58 mobs but never got a name, so I doubt it). I would love to see you try to fear kite at later lvls. There are a few spots in the first tier planes that it is viable for but nothing past that. You also wont ever get a immune message stating this. You will merely get a series of resists that really piss a mob off.

The spell doesnt have to be useful all the way to 65. It can be useful at 63(which it is, since the first tier planes are still DB) then taper off in usefulness. Hence why people get new spells. Also why you dont use your lvl 1 spells.

Nothing more than class envy and a person mad because they cant do it all. How sad.

Fayne Dethe
12-08-2002, 10:52 PM
Lol, the druid charm cant last 3 hours, it is the same as any other charm - 1 second up to say 15 minutes or so (usually 1-3 minutes). Secondly, it being one level lower than the enchanter charm is meaningless - spectrals are equally hard to get and whatever spell you get is entirely random. Obtaining levels is a joke with PoP XP so that is no real difference. The only real issue is the difficulty in obtaining level 65 spells (which isnt too rare for the uber guilds, but level 65 spells mostly nonexistant in tiers 1-3 aside from some of the final bosses in tier 3).

The necro and enchanter charm do have real advantages over the druid version - much higher cap, 5 second cast time, and a negative to resist. I could accept 8 second cast time before all the changes in making alot of mobs snare immune, but now with so many immune mobs why should the druid charm be punished with 3 second longer cast time?

Deneldor2
12-09-2002, 12:10 AM
"The druid charm can last for 3 hours. Now I realize it usually wont"


...errrrrr nope. There are dozens of druids who have charmed 100s of animals and I think there's one claimed 20min charm. Real average I would put at 4mins becasue 7 minutes isnt unusual but neither is 10 seconds.

As is said above, level of spells is irrelevant to some extent in PoP becasue levelling is a piece o' cake. If they offered us a level 64 cap but wanted to make the spell level 65 I'd go for that in a flash.

Tils
12-09-2002, 12:20 AM
Even with enchanter tash on a druid charmed pet 9 times out of 10 on an identicle mob the enchanter charm lasts longer than the druid charm equivalient.

I've tested this in PoS many times with other level level 65 chanters (multiple chanters) with their high level charm and multiple types of mob there.

Even charming mobs like those rats in DN the higher level charm doesnt last any longer than our slightly lower level one..infact I use the lower level one on those because its almost twice as quick to cast.

Tils

Cronuus
12-09-2002, 02:16 AM
The level limit on our charm should be raised so that we can use it in more zones.
Thats why it should be raised.
It wouldnt effect soloing in any tier 1-2 plane since mobs there are almost all charmable.
Its so we can keep using it in tier 3+(especially HOH)
And quad kiting is crap compared to charming.
The level you get the spell at has nothing to do with it, since by the time you get enough spectral so that you get lucky enough to get the charm spell you should already be 65.
Parchment type balance, not level balance.
Spectral parchment spells should be equal strength, rune spells should be stronger.
Druid charm is already weaker than chanters due to animal limitation, no reason it should be limited to lower level animals.
We can heal, you can slow and memblur to get full HP in a few ticks, druids can get full HP by rooting and running off.

And druids ARE a charming class, we have always been able to charm and its one of our class defining abilities, to be able to charm animals.

Firemynd
12-09-2002, 04:24 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Honestly, this is pathetic. The druid charm does have advantages over the other 2, which is why it has a lower cap. This is nothing more than class envy honestly. [/quote]

When you posted those charm spell links, were you hoping that no one would bother to click them and just assume they supported your argument?

Comparing the spell data, the druid charm has only two potential <strong>advantages</strong> over its chanter and necro counterparts: longer duration, and lower mana cost. Note the word 'potential' because I'm about to show how these so-called 'advantages' are inconsequential.

Considering that all random duration charm spells do a check/save for break every 6 seconds and druids have virtually no way to influence that check, you will rarely see any charm lasting longer than a few minutes - the spell data could say 100 hours for potential maximum and that wouldn't change the average duration, in practice, whatsoever.

Enchanters and necros both have abilities superior to druids for regenerating mana on their own, and with resist modifiers in their favor, will actually spend less mana in the long run because of charming successfully more often.

So the only two "advantages" are moot, nothing more than eye candy for spelldat parsers.

Now look at the <strong>disadvantages</strong> of druid charm: cast time, recast time, resist modifier, target type.

Cast time is a big deal here because so many mobs are snare/root immune, while those same mobs are susceptible to mesmerization spells -- which enchanters and necromancers have, and druids lack. So not only do druids require almost twice the casting time, they have no method to keep the mob from beating on them while attempting to cast, and the 200 range prevents druids from gaining enough distance to finish casting charm before the mob catches up.

Recast time is an even bigger deal, because if charm is resisted, a druid must wait 24 seconds before making another attempt; necromancers must only wait 10 seconds, and enchanters have '0' wait time.

Resist modifiers are especially noteworthy because they increase the chance of successfully charming on the first attempt. Not only does this save mana, but in the druid's case, a resist means almost half a minute before they can even try again (while being high on the target's hate list). This factor is further advantageous to enchanters, because they can lower the target's magic resistance by 48, in addition to the 50 modifier inherant to their charm spell itself. Even without tash, the necro charm has a base -100 resist advantage. With our animal-only tash, druids can lower resistance by only 20, and have no way of 'holding' the target (mez) while doing so.

Target type is perhaps the biggest disadvantage of all, because there exists an extremely poor ratio of druid charm targets (animals only) to necromancer (undead) and enchanter (everything!!).

Conclusion: taking all the above factors into consideration, it isn't at all unreasonable for druids to request that their charm spell be equal to enchanters and/or necromancers with regards to the maximum level of charm targets.

While soloing may be one application of charm spells, it certainly isn't the only use. Even so, VI does <strong>not</strong> "HATE soloing" -- as inferred very recently by VI, the only time they implement obstacles for soloing is when it imposes problems for grouping. If they did hate soloing and want to discourage it altogether, they certainly would not have continued expanding the spell lines of 'quad' nukes in PoP.

~Firemynd

Daddun
12-09-2002, 04:44 AM
I think it's perfectly fine the way it is. Necro charm - I believe - is totally random duration, where as - I believe - ours is based on MR, lvl, and Cha. so the advantage of us being able to controll how long an animal stays charmed is our perk. And enchanters, well they are masters of charming, it's (one of) thier class defiening skill. Also, we are the one class out of all the charming classes (necro heal doesn't count) who can actually heal our pets. Combining the duration of our charm, along with the fact that we can heal, makes us a killing machine. You guys forget, enchanter and necro pets are 1 shot deals, once it's dead, you gotta go get another (unless they charm a cleric) at great risk.

p.s. if I've gotten the necro vs. druid charm factors wrong, then call me stupid and then ya, at least lower the cast time.

tinsi
12-09-2002, 04:57 AM
Daddun,
Pardon my ignorance, but why doesn't necro heal count?

Firemynd
12-09-2002, 05:06 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>so the advantage of us being able to controll how long an animal stays charmed is our perk. [/quote]

We have the least ability of all three classes for controlling how long an animal stays charmed. The only class which has a perk in this regard is the enchanter, who can 1) raise their own charisma, 2) lower resistance of a charm target.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And enchanters, well they are masters of charming, it's (one of) thier class defiening skill[/quote]

Charming is as much a class-defining skill for druids, who by the way do not have an alternative (summoned) pet which can last against mobs of our own level.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Also, we are the one class out of all the charming classes (necro heal doesn't count) who can actually heal our pets.[/quote]

If any heal counted, Necro heal would CERTAINLY count, because they can take health from the mob while giving health to the pet. A druid's heal is directly taken from our mana pool without any other benefit than restoring health to the target; we cannot 'tap' an opponent mob to replenish our own health or mana.

Even if healing was to be considered a factor, you'd have to take into account that both enchanters and necromancers can mitigate damage by slowing their targets; enchanters can further mitigate damage on a pet with reagent-free damage absorbing spells.

But the simple fact is that heals do *not* matter for non-DC charming, which this discussion happens to be about. There is rarely a time when healing a charmed (non-DC) pet is beneficial, especially while soloing, wherein the object is to decrease the health of both opponent mob and charmed mob. See my previous post for details on the non-issue of healing charmed pets.

~Firemynd

Tils
12-09-2002, 05:31 AM
actually to bolt on...

Enchanters can mez their charmed mobs after break which makes for easier recharming.

So can Necros with theirs......so can mages with theirs.....

Druids cant :P Yea we can root or snare some mobs...but what happens with these non snarable/rootable mobs which VI have graciously given us hehe.

Just food for thought.

Tils

corlathist
12-09-2002, 06:05 AM
Animal Charm: yes this needs upgrading. this is the biggest of the 3 areas. Yes the Necro Charm is 65, Druid is 63. But the disparity in the 2 is HUGE

Negative 100 Resist? 64/65 cap compared to 60?

If you account for level of spell, the necro spell should be better. just reasonably better.

Druid Charm should be Level Limit 63. Neg 20ish Resist Mod
Same Cast time.

This would still give the necros a 1 or 2 level advantage, and a large advantage on resist check. (50+ even considering Glamour)

Likewise, an Enchanter spell being 64, could cap at 64. And I would accept it. Then theyd still have a 1 level advantage, a larger resist check advantage.

There is no reason a 63 spell should cap at 60, and not 63.

Belkram Marwolf
12-09-2002, 07:50 AM
"Class defining" for this board seems to change to whatever is convenient for the argument or ability that you want at a given time.

Charm is class defining now? Pets are? Heals are? Nukes and DoTs are? Travel is? Soloing is?

Which is it? I defy you to show me what else an enchanter does that isnt mezzing or charming mobs that is useful to a group? Please dont say buffs because every non-melee class has buffs that aid the group now. Necros are the unrepudiated masters of the undead. They need a RUNE to cast this thing. You know, those things that dont even drop off TZ and VZ anymore. The risk factor for Necros and Enchanters is a good deal larger than it is for Druids. I do believe there is a reason many of you like to keep your pets snared yes? And why pray tell would an Enchanter or Necro slow a mob when they want to use it for their pet? God knows they arent going to attempt to dispell it after they slow it :P Please explain to me what an enchnater is supposed to do if the charm goes badly and they are down to say 40 percent life? Either beg a heal or zone in all likelihood. Necros have many more options so are on par with you here.

I dont get it. You want to be on par with Enchanters on charming. I dont see how thats balanced since its what enchanters really do all the time. Mezzing and Charming.


Belkram Marrwolf

corlathist
12-09-2002, 08:11 AM
Sorry charlie.

But you will not be able to explain how druids have a better chance of charming then Necros or enchanters. Its quite the opposite by HUGE margins of degree.

The basic premise of charming technique is for the Caster to be able to cast thier Charm Spell on the mob.

Now there are a couple approaches to the possible ways of doing this:
1) Channel through the mobs hits. ((Shorter Charms Huge here))

for the druid this is practically impossible

2) Kite the Mob. Get enough distance, and have enough range on the spell so that you can cast the charm. again Shorter Cast times & Casting Range is Huge.

For the Druid this is practically impossible.

3) Freeze the Mob in place Roots/Snares/Mezes can be used to do this first.

In every case, theres a big discreptency in ability to do this.
Look at the "difficult" charms.
Druids: Run Speed Immune Animals
Necros: BOTH Run Speed Immune & Mez Immune Undead
Enchanter: BOTH Run Speed Immune & Mez Immune Anything

So again Druids are far behind the curve of getting thier charm, even in thier area.

Then whats the 2 Biggest Difficulties to Charming.
1) Charm Breaking
2) Adds

In both cases, its far safer and Easier for an Enchanter to Mez everything back into control. Or Necro to fear/mez.
While Druid is left with ONLY runspeed modifiers like Root
to regain control.

Final Arguement, make a list of druid charms and thier caps
and a list of necro charms and thier caps, and enchanter charms and thier caps. the big distinction will stand out in being 60 at 63 Spell.

tetrian corbec
12-09-2002, 08:20 AM
<strong>the point i tried to make before malkyr is that druids have tools that make using charm in a solo situation too easy/powerful. Its true that enchanters get a higher cap, but they dont have those tools. Druids can sow themsleves, and have a 3k heal for 400 mana, plus other fast heals they can use on themsleves. Enchanters dont have any of that available to them. They would make it a LOT easier to charm.</strong>

Enchanters got similar tools, in this case being able to completely lock down a mob hitting them, and self runes to cover for heals - and guess what, they can sow themselves also!(run speed, jboots, or how about permanent wolfform? - not that i give a flying @#%$, but with every single class in the game having access to sow im getting tired of that arguement)


-Tetrian

Apoctyliptic Castinwolf
12-09-2002, 10:37 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Charming isnt the only soloing option that Druids have. It is the only option Enchnaters have[/quote]
I know an enchanter that was root/doting/nuking solo in PoS... so charming is not an enchanter's only option...

Belkram Marwolf
12-09-2002, 02:06 PM
I know of a Druid quad-kiting in Plane of Valor. If an enchanter is nuke/Doting hes got to be bored, thats going to be ungodly slow not to mention all the root busts.

I guess you could make a case for Druids killing things with their damage shield and rooting if you wanted to be completely rediculous. Root mob, cast DS, let mob pound you and swing ineffectively with your weapon and root and back off when you need to heal yourse.....err wait thats cleric soloing isnt it?


Belkram Marrwolf

Apoctyliptic Castinwolf
12-09-2002, 06:09 PM
well, with a 1100 nuke + some aa crit, he nukes for more than i do.. not to mention he has tranquility... not sure how good his dots are

Moonangie
12-10-2002, 11:08 AM
As for chanters not having heal spells to make soloing more effective...Please!

Chanters have a MUCH more effective means of healing their charmed pets...it's called SLOW. What better way to heal your pet than to make sure he barely takes any damage. With the regen on PoP mobs so high, chanters won't ever need to use a hit point heal spell.

No doubt, druids have lots of utility spells that assist a pet in killing. But their has been not a single argument as to why druids should have only level 60 pets available to them while necros and chanters have level 64+. I would be happy if druids got at least level 62 animals at spell level 63, or level 63 animals for spell at level 64.

I am happy spell is level 63, but we should have equivalent range available to us as necros.

Belkram Marwolf
12-10-2002, 03:37 PM
The Necro spell is a damn 65 rune it should kick butt.

Enchanters mezz and charm its their specialty, they should be better than a Druid at it.

Those are your reasons.


Belkram Marrwolf

Firemynd
12-10-2002, 10:45 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Enchanters mezz and charm its their specialty, they should be better than a Druid at it. [/quote]

By that very same logic, one could just as easily say that NO CLASS should be better than druids when it comes to animals and nature; it is, after all, their specialty. Therefore, druid charm spells should be MORE effective than those of enchanters because druid charms only target animals -- and remember, enchanters don't specialize in animals.

There, that was easy. Thanks for playing. :D

~Firemynd

Belkram Marwolf
12-11-2002, 06:14 AM
As I stated above, the specialization is, according to what I keep seeing on this site, whatever it needs to be to bolster an argument for an increase in an ability or a new ability.

Argue what I said in terms of sheer balance Firemynd. Enchanters ONLY mezz, charm, slow and buff in a group. CC is an enchanters bread and butter, its what groups get them for.

Necros are the masters of the undead. They use a 65 Rune to get that 65 charm. Im willing to bet there are more blades of Carnage on a given server than there are of that spell. Besides all that Necromancers enslave the undead and use them. Its their purpose.

If you wish to say that animals are the same for Druids I need to point some things out to you. Your summon line that is based on summoned creatures not Animals? Where are your animal based nukes and DoTs? I realize that animals have been charmable to Druids since level 14 but the ability has ALWAYS been capped. Since when do Druids USE the wilderness to accomplish what they want? They are supposed to protect it, not control it. But thats role-play speaking there.

From a purely gameplay perspective I still dont see why an upgrade is needed for Druid soloing when 2 routes already exist and the 3rd route of charming is viable, its just not easy. And if you were to Duo with someone most of your difficulties would be overcome easier.


Belkram Marrwolf

PS you cant HONESTLY believe you should charm anything better than an enchanter do you?

malkyr
12-11-2002, 07:37 AM
As you stated anyone can come up with RP arguments so I will ignore yours as well. Lets look at the other points you raise:

Where are your animal based nukes and DoTs?
Umm our nukes/dots work on animals. Just because they are not animals-only does not mean we cant attack animals :)

From a purely gameplay perspective I still dont see why an upgrade is needed for Druid soloing when 2 routes already exist and the 3rd route of charming is viable, its just not easy. And if you were to Duo with someone most of your difficulties would be overcome easier.

2 Routes. I assume you refer to quadding and root/dotting. Tell me Bel how many times have you followed these routes to 65. I am curious where you are coming from .. are you 65 yourself and tried these routes? Have you charm kited at 65 with CoT? Charming is NOT viable if only ONE valid (blue con) spot in the game is availiable for charming. Or you disagree?

PS you cant HONESTLY believe you should charm anything better than an enchanter do you?

I dont believe anyone is asking that we surpass chanters in charm.

Gnizmo
12-11-2002, 08:29 AM
Once more into the fray.

When you get the spell there is more than one camp you can take with it that is blue. PoN is still blue at 63. Plenty of charming to be had there. Rats and ravens just off the top of my head.

"quote]Where are your animal based nukes and DoTs?[/quote]
Umm our nukes/dots work on animals. Just because they are not animals-only does not mean we cant attack animals "

The point he was getting at is necros do get these for undead. Their mastery of the undead is more complete than your control over animals.

My bad on that one. I was tired and using second hand info. Prolly shouldnt have posted but was sleep deprived and wasnt thinking. Again my bad.

Firemynd
12-11-2002, 08:45 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Argue what I said in terms of sheer balance Firemynd. Enchanters ONLY mezz, charm, slow and buff in a group. CC is an enchanters bread and butter, its what groups get them for. [/quote]
Enchanters have a multitude of utility spells (illusions themselves are significant, but also faction spells, memory blurs, etc). Even so, they are the game's undisputed specialists in the areas you mentioned. Except where animals are concerned, druids don't have any area in which they excel significantly above all other classes, and have a few areas in which they could be considered second- or third-best.

In terms of direct class:class balance, an Enchanter's specialty in charm and mez shouldn't be seen only in terms of the level of mobs they can affect. Their specialty is already very apparent in the sheer variety of these spell lines; they don't just get one mez or one charm, but several, including an AoE mez line, and 60th level Dictate, a fixed-duration nearly *irrestistable* charm which works on mobs up to the spell's level -- even works on mobs immune to mez.

Druids cannot charm all mobs. They can only charm animals, which reflect a very tiny percentage of creatures in this game. Is it not reasonable that there would be some perks given to offset such a limited scope for the use of this charm line? Apparently Verant agrees to an extent, such as giving druids a pet-only buff (Savage Spirit) which rivals the chanter's haste percentage, in addition to the buff's atk/ac qualities.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>PS you cant HONESTLY believe you should charm anything better than an enchanter do you? [/quote]
Actually, yes. I believe druids should be <strong>more</strong> effective than enchanters when <strong>animals</strong> are the target, because this is the only area in which a druid could traditionally be seen as 'specialist' over other classes.

However, I wouldn't ask for our charm to work on 64th level mobs; given that the spell in question is 63rd level, it would be more reasonable that the charm would affect animals up to the level of the spell, so that is what I would ask for.

Note that I haven't pleaded a case to have the same variety of charms or mezzes for animals that enchanters have for all mob types. I'm not even saying druids should have animal version of Dictate, AE mezzes, etc. That *variety* is what gives the enchanter its specialty in this area.

~Firemynd
(edited for clarification)

Firemynd
12-11-2002, 09:02 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Now I will again explain why the enchanter charm has a higher cap. Look at the durations. Fine druid charm will break early, but it isnt that uncommon to see 20 min duration right? Enchanter charm will only last 8 max(less actually but for simplicity). So in order to keep something charmed a similar amount of time it would cost the chanter 1200m and the druid 220m. See the difference. I sure do.[/quote]
Gnizmo you have apparently treaded onto ground with which you are not knowledgable enough to argue.

1. It is not merely uncommon, but HIGHLY RARE that any druid charm would last much longer than 5 minutes. I would be utterly thrilled to see even 1 out of 100 charms last 20 minutes, but it has been my experience that the chance of seeing such a duration is about the same as winning the lottery.

2. Even if your assumption about mana cost vs. duration were true (which it is NOT), you would need to adjust your calculation; the mana cost on CoT isn't 220 -- it is 470. Furthermore, since enchanter charm resists and duration are modified by charisma, they have an inherantly better chance of seeing a longer duration.

The only difference you see is one you've conjured in your own head. The rest of us are looking at numbers more based in reality, and at direct first-hand experience.

~Firemynd

corlathist
12-11-2002, 09:23 AM
Gniz,

I dont think you understand the fundamentals of charm duration they are Based on a Mobs Magic Resistance and the spells inherent resist modifier.

Since tash is more than glamour. And inherent spell mod data.

The average duration a mob stays charmed will be larger for an enchanter than a druid.

Belkram Marwolf
12-11-2002, 11:22 AM
Im sorry you should not ever surpass an enchanter in their area of specialty. Ever. They are supposed to be the best at it. End of story. Balance is not the class with umpteen abilities picking one and saying we need to do this better because this is our specialty. If you wish to have a spell that does more I strongly suggest you ask for a Rune like the Necromancer one. It works on higher level mobs.


As far as three methods to gaining solo experience...
1) Root/rotting
2)Quad-kiting
3)Charm based with rot, nuke, DS mixture
These routes are used by Druids that I talk with every day. Number 2 works in POV even resulting in ornage per kite. Number 1 works decently in Tier1 planes and in Valor if you choose your mobs properly. Storms would seem to be problematic due to the amount of adds and healing available to mobs there. Charm based can actually be done 2 ways, one being slow and steady and the other being a little riskier but involving charm, fight, kill, pull, switch charm, fight, kill, pull. I have not done them. I have wactched friends do them and talked on the phone while watching them do them. I know the ins and outs of them better than you think. Ive done a few pulls myself on a 63 Druid friend. Im not speaking from total ignorance as you would like to believe and dismiss what Im saying.

Gnizmo hit my point on the head about Necromancers regarding undead.

Balance argument isnt going to fly, you have alternate methods to charming that are efficient and viable. Enchanters have this as their ONLY method to solo efficiently. Necros need a rune to accomplish it. Charm doesnt land a Druid a group either. Charm and CC land Enchanters groups because that is what they do.


Role-playing method isnt going to fly, Druids dont use animals as pawns to accomplish their own ends. Necros do use undead for this and Enchanters have this as their only goal with the spells, to bend others to their will.


Belkram Marrwolf

Deneldor2
12-11-2002, 12:19 PM
""but it isnt that uncommon to see 20 min duration right""

Where on earth do people get their ideas from? I have been charming animals from EW in the mid 30s to PoD in the mid 60s and I have NEVER EVER had a charm last more than 7 mins.

Gilu FreeWind
12-11-2002, 08:51 PM
/troll on
Anyway!
i prefer to group than to solo/charm/root-dot/quad :)
Solo sucks

Bouuuuuuuh! *grins*
/troll off
:p

Firemynd
12-12-2002, 12:10 AM
Belkram, you just don't get it and I suspect you never will. For one thing, you can't expect class balance to center on soloing. There have always been some classes better able to solo than others, and some which are more suited for grouping.

The enchanter is the single most versatile, useful, effective, and in some cases even necessary member of any group. The class wasn't originally designed to solo, but charming gave them a method to accomplish that end when desired.

Druids were made more capable of soloing, but given no real specialties for grouping; i.e., they bring no unique ability, nor any shared ability which another class cannot perform better. In many cases, significantly better. The druid's one single solitary area of expertise has been dealing with animals, yet enchanters have always been able to deal with animals equally well. You are suggesting that suddenly, enchanters should be better equipped to deal with animals than those with an assigned affinity?

No, you won't get it ... because you are refusing to allow your own common sense to influence your prejudice.

~Firemynd

Cronuus
12-12-2002, 04:28 AM
Higher level cap isnt really an upgrade to soloing, it just lets us use the spell in more zones.

Belkram Marwolf
12-12-2002, 07:33 AM
You have a cornucopia of abilites. Charm is one of them. Enchanters have the vast majority of abilities that are all suited to one end, crowd control.

Yes they get several Mezzes but, all their damage is low point totals and low efficiency and as well, one resist line.

Enchanters can Tash to lower debuffs, yes. Its done so they can mezz and charm more effectively. As well as simply to be able to not have every damage spell they possess be resisted partially or in total.

Yes they do possess mana regen buffs, to a lesser extent so do you with POTC and Blessing of the Nine.

Balance must be comprehensive. It must take into consideration all the abilities of a class in totality or you have the classes with numerous abilities always comparing themselves to those with a few powerful abilities constantly having those "powerful" abilites that they give up other things for mean less and less.

You consider balance one static piece of your array of abilites versus once class' speciality. I consider all the abilities of both classes and find your argument lacking. I dont think you "need" it. I think you are quite powerful without it. I dont think having this spell is about balance so much as it is about keeping up with another class in their specialty.


Belkram Marrwolf

corlathist
12-12-2002, 09:04 AM
I still think Enchanters are OVERPOWERED.

If your looking at it in Balance, of classes, I would gladly take up the gauntlet that the sum total of Enchanter Power > sum total of Druid Power.

Group Desirability:
I see lots of shouts in PoV for "Group looking for Shaman/Enchanter" or "Group looking for Enchanter" I have never ever seen a shout "Group looking for Druid."

this has been magnified by the random runspeed nerf. which has reduced root-parking crowd control. Now you either slow offtank or mez for reliable control.

Soloing:
In terms of XP, druids have more ways to get XP. I'll grant that. But of those ways.
Charming XP > Quad Kiting ((If usable due to the RunSpeed Nerf)) > Root Rotting ((If usable due to the RunSpeed nerf))

Chanter Charm XPing > Druid Charm XP > All other ways a druid XPs.

Hence, a Chanter Solos > Druid Solos ((at 60+ level))

Raids:
Enchanters don't stack well. But each raid has a type of minimum enchanter level. There is no minimum druid level.

So if you want to play the "sum total" game, fine.
"Sum Total" of Enchanters Abilities > "Sum Total" of Druid.

Hence to balance, either improve the Druid, or Nerf the Enchanter.

Also care to explain why Druids/Necros/Enchanters all pay 9 points for the Dire Charm, but don't get the same Value out.
Don't tell me "Enchanters are supposed to be better charmers"
because thats moot with AA. Remember Trolls/Iskar are "supposed to be better regeners" and they had the regen AA nerfed from 2 Regen per point, back to 1 Regen per point. Verant expressily stated that since Regen was equal cost
all should get equal ability.

Druid/Necro should cost 5 to 7 points. Or enchanter shouldn't work on Animals or Undead.

TeriMoon
12-12-2002, 09:10 AM
What does Tash(add your own ending) have to do with barking? What is the correlation?

Alianna Sedai
12-12-2002, 10:28 AM
For enchanters why would we WANT our pets to be healed? I want my pet to be NEARLY DEAD when he finishes the other mob, then I kill pet too :)

Cheap, easy, and just charm something different for the next pair to die.

Ujust Wantsow
12-12-2002, 04:38 PM
HAHA druids crack me up "Hence, a Chanter Solos > Druid Solos ((at 60+ level))" sooooooo someone can actually solo better than a druid at 60+ .... what about 1-59? So now druids are the second best soloers,second best DS,second best healers,second best at this and that ... having alot of second best makes you a very powerful class not to mention snare,best roots, and buffs to boot.

You all bitch about your pet but druids are the ones that said "we want one for roleplay reasons!" They give you one and it's weak for roleplay reasons and you whine! haha classic. Name another class that got their epic changed because they bitched?

All i hear is we want to be wanted in groups but then you say ..."well how does that help me solo". Shaman (who group more) got shafted because druids wanted to be more desirable in groups get MUCH better heals! Shaman get a fire nuke at level one that never gets a upgrad. they also get a charm animal line THAT NEVER GETS A UPGRADE! Why? THEY DON'T NEED just like druids don't need a upgrade to their charm. If you look at all the classes the druid is the best well rounded class in the game.

Stop whining about what you don't have a look at what you do have. You have more than 80% of the classes in the game. If you want to be the uber soloer at 60+ play a enchanter and be done with it! You can solo to 65 be glad that you don't have to rely on a group to get you there.

Ujust

Firemynd
12-12-2002, 06:50 PM
Ujust, if your post wasn't so chocked-full of cliche trollish comments and class envy, or if you had even one legitimate point, I would bother responding. But you don't, so I won't.

~Firemynd

WyteNK
12-12-2002, 07:12 PM
LOL, owned.

corlathist
12-13-2002, 03:24 AM
heh,

I'll stand by my personal experience. I have seen hundreds
of group looking for Enchanter or Shaman shouts in Valor. I have never ever seen one shout of group looking for druid.

Valor Shouts in roughly the order I see them:
Group looking for Shaman/Enchanter: Yes
Group looking for Cleric: Yes
Group looking for Tank (Plate): Yes
Group looking for DPS: Yes
Group looking for Enchanter: Yes
Cave Group looking for FD Puller: Yes

Group looking for Druid: No

Also I 2 box a druid and a shaman. Ive got multiple random tells in shaman box "Do you need a group" as I zone in at the usual gather hill. Never ever got one from a random person on the druid.

As for enchanters suddenly soloing better, I dont mind
but again logic would say that they take a hit, n thier group desirability. Errr. this is verant. Of course not.

Sum total (Solo, Group, Raid) Enchanter > Sum Total (Solo, Group, Raid) Druid.

BTW: remember this was all about raising the Druid charm to 63 or 64. How would this HURT any other class?

Belkram Marwolf
12-13-2002, 06:44 AM
Group looking for DPS in Valor....that could be YOU. If you have a frog charmed.

Group looking for Shaman/Enchanter....If they have a shammy they can slow pulls and go with a Druid as the main healer and the Shammy as the backup.

Problem is people hold out for the most efficiency instead of growing a pair and making a group work even if it is slower. I enjoy groups with good players that play beyond their so called "role" and make the group work all the better.

Maybe your server situation is different from mine. I can do a /who all lfg 60 65 and not even get the limit even in primetime. What that means is the people not getting groups are pretty darn rare. Plus, try going to storms, fun zone, bring your MR gear and march through the Trees, bears, snakes, flowers.

The "will it hurt another class" argument is pointless. There are tons of abilities that can be farmed out to classes that dont appear to hurt another class but after doing that for long enough you wind up with classes with a wide array of abilities that are almost as powerful as a class that specialized in only that one thing and pays for it in every other ability they have.

As far as the raid role of enchanters. Those roles are somewhat limited in most raids. There are encounters like High Priest in Ssra, Emperor in Ssra, VT but overall there are very few cases in which you will need more than 1 or 2 enchanters to do all the buffing because that is simply all you need them for. If you dont recognize this you really have a serious case of class envy about enchanters because that is what they put up with a lot of the time. Oh yes the Tash/splat effect too I forgot that part....


Belkram Marrwolf

corlathist
12-13-2002, 07:44 AM
Belkram,

Your backtracking in arguement. Your original argument was "Druids are already too powerful in the sum total of thier abilities so they dont need higher charm cap or a charm cap equal to enchanters."

My counterarguement is that its quite the opposite
you could make a much easier arguement that the Enchanter is overpowered and could have a smaller cap.

Group Looking for DPS, could be a dire charmed druid. But the Chanters have already grabbed the Frogs too. (((Yes this is my personal crusader as 9 points = 9 points))

I don't get your response to Group Looking for Chanter/Shaman could settle for a druid healer. First of all, they usually wont for lack of Rez. But the point still is?
Thats what I see shouting "Looking for" which means the group shouting is missing. Druid sure as hell can't say "take me"

as for Raids, same is very very true of druids. I can protection of seasons the raid for 3 bulbs or less. Now what?


Anyway, giving druids the same level cap as enchanters would bring the 2 classes closer to balance.

Belkram Marwolf
12-13-2002, 11:13 AM
Can an enchanter heal? Should you be balanced in regards to charm with an enchanter? Ever? Do you think you if the target is an animal you should nuke as well as a wizard? DoT as well as a necro? I simply dont understand the reasoning.

Why is it you cannot acccept that a given class can and SHOULD be able to do something better than you, since it is their prime purpose ingame?

DO NOT GIVE ME THIS RAID WHINE CRAP. You spot heal, you debuff the mob in AC and resists, you nuke and/or DoT, you can provide a portion of the CH chain and/or take over a fallen healers position in the chain, you provide Mana regen/HP buffs, you provide Damage shields, regen abilities, AA abilities like Wrath of the Wild and Spirit of the Wood and Radiant Cure. Druids have multiple raid roles and they stack in raids something which Enchanters do NOT do well.

Enchanters are QUITE powerful in their areas of specialty. Only bards approach them with serious liabilities. The thing is that Enchanters give up many, many abilities to excel at a few. I offer that Enchanters should be superior in every aspect within their specialty.

And I am backtracking my argument to address points brought up by others /shrug.

As far as the res argument...I strongly suggest you drop that one right where it lies, Im a cleric and I KNOW all about rezzes and graveyards. If you cant get a rez at a graveyard inside of 15 minutes I think you better stop pissing Clerics off on your server. If a person is even halfway polite to me and hasnt done something malicious to me in my gametime they get a res no biggy. Some offer donations, some dont. Again, you send em a tell and say you will main heal the group....I dont see the problem with doing that. Maybe you get in the group maybe you dont.

Im going to agree to disagree with ya here guys, I dont think you need it, you think you do, I dont think its balanced you think it is. Fair enough.


Belkram Marrwolf

Firemynd
12-13-2002, 12:19 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Enchanters are QUITE powerful in their areas of specialty. [/quote]

Enchanters are also quite powerful in the druid's only area of specialty (and let's face it, that specialty isn't all that hot since it's highly situational). Enchanters are *better* at dealing with *animals* than druids are. Even if roleplay is taken entirely out of the consideration, something still doesn't seem right about that to me. When a rabid bear is loose, do you call a game warden or do you call a psychiatrist?

I would have preferred that Verant define all areas of charming from the very beginning: druids/animals, necromancers/undead, and enchanters/everything else. In other words, enchanters would be able to charm anything that wasn't tagged as an animal or undead. But what's done is done and at this stage of the game, I'm not asking for VI to go back and nerf chanters.

I don't really mind that enchanters are able to charm mobs up to 64th level, including animals. However, I do mind that druids can only charm animals up to 60th level. I think the limit should be raised to 63; which is still not as high as a chanter's charm cap, and still restricted to animals.

~Firemynd

Quelm
12-13-2002, 12:59 PM
Part of the problem is a lack of animals in raid zones. Before PoP, druid charm was basically a soloing or single group tool in a handful of zones. There are still zones in PoP without a single animal. Then there are zones with things that look like animals, but aren't tagged as such. A shortage of animals limits the usefulness of druid charm.

Now, when a druid finally sees something on the target bar after casting Sense Animals, he or she can get excited. Finally! Some animals! This excitement quickly turns to disappointment when said druid finds out that all the animals are too high to be charmed. (HoH) Disappointment can turn to bitterness when an enchanter can walk right in and charm those same animals. A lower cap on Command of Tunare further restricts the usefulness of druid charm.

Command of Tunare is a great spell. It is arguably the most powerful spell in a druid's spellbook. CoT-friendly zones are *fun* for druids and the folks who group with them. The request to raise the cap on CoT or vary the levels of certain mobs is a request to make a relatively minor change that will significantly improve a couple zones for druids and their friends. BTW, cleric and charming druid is my current duo of choice in off hours.

As such, the request has been posted to the Druid boards, asking for the support of the Druid community. Minor change that will make the game more fun for Druids: my vote, YES.

-Quelm, Storm Warden
Drunken Tsunami, Terris-Thule

Deneldor2
12-13-2002, 03:50 PM
"Enchanters are QUITE powerful in their areas of specialty"

Belkram, you're arguments are solid enough but that is a joke. You are ignoring the fact that enchanters are massively superior to us in charm (as they should be) and all we ask for is a small lift in level cap on a tiny percentage of mobs to make a high level spell useable in high level zones. Where is the problem with that?

malkyr
12-13-2002, 05:12 PM
I dont understand why chanters are even being bought into this argument ... all this class envy is crap.

Look at the orig post and read it again. I am NOT asking for us to be given super abilities. I am asking for our EXISTING ability to be expanded such that we can use it in more than ONE zone.

Fact: We have a charm spell that works well.
Fact: Currently at lvl 65 there is only ONE blue con spot that is feasable to charm-solo in (PoS).
Fact: We need more than ONE spot to charm solo in.

Solution1: Increase the lvl of the charm spell such that mobs up to 64 can be charmed with it (ie HoH).
Solution2: Decrease the lvl of the mobs in zones such as HoH so they can be charmed with the existing spell
Solution3: Add compleatly new animal-tagged mobs (BLUE CONS) in various zones to make our charm usable in more than ONE spot.

I started this with the intent to allow druids to be able to charm more than one spot. Stop bickering about other classes and what they can or cannot do. Making our existing ability usable in other zones is NOT destroying class balance. It is simply making it flexible.

If you have another solution post below so if the developers happen to read this thread they have some options to pick upon. Bickering about other classes will resolve nothing.

Malkyr

random user
12-14-2002, 03:53 AM
I don't believe, IMO, that we're even discussing this, let along having a thread this big on this.

There is no doubt in my mind that enchanter charm is going to be nerfed at some point in time. The question is whether druid and other charms are going to be nerfed along with it.

Druid charm is quite powerful where it's at; it's possible that the charm nerf stick will hit druids as well; it's possible that the limitations on druid charm will allow it to evade being nerfed. We shall see.

By asking for parity with enchanter charms (even taking into account stuff like levels, etc that you all are talking about), you are asking for them to nerf druid charm.

Rather than getting fiesty and asking for an elevated charm which would certainly be nerfed, we should be glad that we have a charm which is not useless, and hope that in SOE's eyes it is restricted enough that it doesn't need to be nerfed, that it doesn't need to be made useless.

Just my 2cp.

- Xylem, E'ci

Cronuus
12-14-2002, 05:56 AM
The only gain from a higher level cap on our charm is the ability to use the spell in more area, it does not allow us to be more powerful in already existing area, so there is no reason why its unbalancing, please shut up with your worthless trolling.

Belkram Marwolf
12-14-2002, 08:51 AM
Pardon me for posting something contrary to the "current wisdom" regarding a Druid ability or spell. I stated my opinion, I attempted to back it up. I didnt flame, I didnt use one-liners, I didnt attack any other poster. Shove it Cronuus, you sir, are out of line. I did not "troll". If you only listen to those that agree with you, you are usually missing half of what is being said, at the very least half.

You could do something that along the lines of AA to make this spell more powerful as well. There is a precedent for this. Instead you insist the spell must be increased. /shrug



Belkram

Ujust Wantsow
12-14-2002, 01:33 PM
Befriend Animal Level: 14 Mana: 70 The maximum level 24

Charm Level: 12 Mana: 60 Target: Make Pet (Level Limit 25)


Now i know im a troll but it looks to me that enchanters have been better at charming since newbie levels. So my question is why should you be on par with them now?

I understand that it wouldn't hurt any class if you got a upgrade. The point is it doesn't matter you don't NEED the upgrade. It wouldn't hurt if they gave wizards ensnare .... they already have a snare line so it would be just a class upgrade.... but they don't need it either. It wouldn't hurt if shaman got a upgrade to charm animal.... it wouldnt hurt if shadow knights got necro pets... see where this is going? Just because it wouldn't hurt anyone doesn't mean you NEED it! Druids are fine.

My exp group consisted of(shaman,necro,druid,mage,enchanter,warrior) we have no trouble, yes all are 60+. Most people don't group with druid because druids have never bothered to try to group until mid 50's ... i know that not all druids are like that but most are. Your name gets you into a group, but by soloing no one but your guild knows who you are. I have even had druids quit a group and solo because exp is faster ..... yea thats gonna get ya a group again.

So Firemynd says i was making trollish comments, but can he say what i said isn't true? If not telling you what you want to hear is trollish then yes im a troll but i think SOE needs to quit screwing with classes and leave them alone they are as balanced as they are gonna get, and AGAIN be happy with what you have ..... it's more than alot of classes!

Ujust
Troll

Pekk Darkleaf
12-14-2002, 02:14 PM
Rimidal is a well known exploiter on the tribunal (using charm, in fact!), pay him no heed.

Daki666
12-14-2002, 02:58 PM
First of all: Yes, considering lvl of animal actually in game 63 would fit fine.

Secondarly let me explain myself:
I feel VI did a great job to add DC pet in multiple zones for those with this ability to get some use out of it instead of only soloing BUT, the problem is that as a druid, in zone like PoTactic arena, Crypt of Decay ... it's charming DC pet with CoT (cuz i don t have DC), or not charming at all, i don't need to be able to charm a lvl63 mob with 0 MR and which quad 2K flurry ae ramp or whatever, i just need to get some use out of my "oh so rare scroll" , so frankly, if there were L46 mob for DC, L55 to 60 mob for charm that would be perfect, but fact is in most those zone all the animal but the DC'able (which are pretty gay even more when u don t have DC lol) are like 1 or 2 lvl over the cap, what's the god damn point of having this spell if DC do it all much better :(

If i could choose i'd rather simply be able to see 300ish 400ish hitting animal charmable than 600 700ish animal immune to charm. So my reply would be reducing the lvl (and power) of those animal like War Boar (for pure exemple, they are in PoTactic arena) of 1 or 2 lvl just so they fit in the charm restriction we got.

There is a broad range of lvl and power for charmable mob which is simply unused atm it's DCable ones =140ish hitter or the rare rare 400 or 600 hitter which are probably overpowered but aren't even really usable for group, they're just a solo'ing tool or something you use to kill some named with a handful of druids... which tbh we don't care much although it's kinda fun.

Hope you get my idea, it's not easy to say it like i feel it but well, i mean i don't even want to go in war with enc, they can burn in hell with their godly pet, i just want "DECENT" pets for true charm, and lowbie pet for DC and those already exist and are a damn fine work.

Daki Timix
Antonius Bayle
<Mortalis>

Firemynd
12-14-2002, 09:05 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You could do something that along the lines of AA to make this spell more powerful as well. There is a precedent for this. Instead you insist the spell must be increased. /shrug [/quote]

While that is an interesting notion at a glance, I'm not sure you could convince druids to spend even more AA points considering the restrictiveness of an animal-only charm.

I would also like to point out that druids and necromancers have already spent the same 9 AA points as enchanters for Dire Charm, yet because our charming is limited to animals and undead, respectively, we only have about 1% the number of potential dire pets as enchanters.

If you objectively take into account all the advantages enchanters have in charming (e.g. mez for charm breaks, significant magic resist debuffers), as well as the disparity between an animal-only charm and one which works on virtually any type of mob, it really is not so unreasonable to ask that a 63rd level spell would be made more useful to druids high enough to scribe it.

~Firemynd

Daki666
12-15-2002, 02:49 AM
Call of Karana is a lvl 52 spell and you can charm mobs up to lvl55 with it.
As far as i remember Command of Tunare is the only spell which max charm lvl is under the lvl you get the spell at, so i don't feel it's too much asking to get it capped at 63 or 64.

Shrubbyroot
12-15-2002, 06:20 AM
Are we allowed to respond to particular people's uninformed comments or are you just going to censor everything? When did this board turn into a forum for toeing the company line and creating sheep?

FyyrLuStorm
12-15-2002, 08:42 PM
Debate him on his points.

Resorting to namecalling is not acceptable.

Saraahlol
12-16-2002, 11:04 AM
CoK max level is 52...

Daki666
12-16-2002, 12:28 PM
Right, i wrote that fast and made a mistake, don't be a child to come argue on what is not at all the point, you got the overall idea i hope and THAT is what matters.
I never really cared about CoK max actual lvl but simply knowing what i could and could not charm, and that i know pretty well. I'm pretty sure it's 54 or at the very least 53 anyway.

If there had been a worthwhile and interesting point at all in your post it wouldn't have been deleted, but i guess it lacks any...

tanyenwoodelf
12-17-2002, 01:47 PM
Looking at spell Data and comparing the different charm spells.

Command of Tunare:
8sec cast, 24sec delay, 3hr15min Duration, 420mana, Duration Formula: 3

Tunare's Request:
8sec cast, 24sec delay, 3hr15min Duration, 350mana
Duration Formula: 3
Note: TR lasts as long as a regular charm.

It appears that Command of Tunare was copied using the Tunare's Request as a template (cast time same, delay time same, mana increase 20%, Duration Formula Same, Duration Time Same) instead of using the Call of Karana as the template.

Has anyone tried the Command of Tunare on a non-aggro animal and let it wear out to see if the animal aggros like regular charms?

Shrubbyroot
12-18-2002, 08:15 AM
He doesn't have any points other than bashing druids all the time, that's the problem.

FyyrLuStorm
12-18-2002, 12:16 PM
I have read most of his posts, and though I disagree with him on many of his points, I cannot recall a single instance of him bashing druids.

Disagreeing<>bashing.
Disagreeing<>trolling.

I have also seen him take a lot of heat and not resort to namecalling, just show him the same respect.

Shrubbyroot
12-18-2002, 01:26 PM
When he was coming here and saying there was nothing wrong with druids and muddying the waters with his inane comments about how we should be nerfed during class balancing it was bashing, period.

Belkram Marwolf
12-18-2002, 02:16 PM
Saying an upgrade isnt needed or that upgrading other classes first has greater priority, IN MY OPINION, is completely different from bashing a class and calling for nerfs.

I dont call for nerfs. I dont agree with an upgrade I will argue that it isnt needed or an alternative be hashed out. If I think it messes over another class' role ingame be it raid or group I will again disagree with the upgrade or state alternatives. Or ask for the options that another class does or does not have *cough-cleric soloing-cough* be strengthened.

I dont call other posters idiots or morons, I dont say Druid suxxor or any of that crap, I state my opinion within the framework that is the rules for posting on this board. I state it forcefully and I keep restating to make my point clear. I rebut arguments and strengthen my own points in ensuing discussion.

If you are unfamiliar with it, this is called debate. Its how you are supposed to discuss things in an open format.

In case you missed the results from the petition, I do believe everything was enacted to one degree or another.

10 healing percent penalty gone
Epic change
Heal efficiency increase
DoT stacking
Nuke effectiveness changed with mana/damage ratios
I dont remeber the last 2; I know there were 7 points.

Basically I dont think Verant gives a flying leap what I think or what you think, right now its all driven by profit$ and ca$h. I think they want to milk Everque$t for whatever they can at the lowe$t po$$ible co$t to them.

So the longer this topic stays up and is debated the more likely it is to get enacted. But, again, thats just my opinion.



Belkram Marrwolf

FyyrLuStorm
12-18-2002, 03:46 PM
Ports to Luclin

Protection of the Cabbage


iirc

Sinann Lunasa
12-20-2002, 07:46 AM
Since atm there is only One zone a 65 druid can charm in for exp it might be nice to bump the cap some/ lower recast for the ones who move up to elemental planes in case there is something to charm. Keep in mind that a 1500 rune , instant recast and root will save you many more times than root, 8 second recast and you stuck with a charmed rooted pet whos charm breaks before root a heck of a lot :)
I personally love my enchanter friends who can solo now, I think enchanters were boring as heck before they got to 60+ and got their spells and AAs to charm solo so well. I dont think its unfair to ask that druids be able to charm in 2 or 3 zones at 65 if we want to. I usually group up with another druid to do this anyway, as it eases CC issues and pet recycling. I dont ever want to see anyone have anything taken away, I just like to see something useful get used, and making a petcharm available to druids, let them get it when they are keyed for PoS, and then make it uselful for one zone only is not utililzing the potential of the purpose IMO.
Out of the three classes that get Dire Charm, Druids find the least use for charm, and if we have it as a class ability, then somewhere it was in the RP vision for us to have powerful command of the animals of the lands at our call.
Enchanters will always be the most powerful at this hands down no matter what level animals druids can charm. Enchanters do not need to check flags of NPCs to charm them, just the levels.

Mages also get a charm at 65 for elementals - Call of the Arch Mage And they are not a charm class at all ;) I cant verify the limit on that other than I know a Mage having great fun with elementals in BoT with it soloing.

Oznoyng
12-20-2002, 11:33 AM
I am a chanter and I have no problem with a level 64 limit for druid charm.

Oznoyng
12-20-2002, 12:13 PM
Heh. Wasn't sure that last one would go through, so posted a short one.

As far as I see it, druids, necros and chanters should all have the same ability to charm mobs. The druids should have the ability with animals, the necros with undead, and the chanters with all types. All of them should be the same level. Aside from changing the level allowed, I probably would not change anything else.

I would not reduce the cast time. When I am charming, if I have room to roam and I have a snare on my pet, recharming is easy. The key part of that statement is "if I have snare on my pet". The casting time on CoD is 5 seconds compared to 8 seconds for Druid charm, but I have no way to snare the pet. Because druids can Ensnare the pet, slowing it by 56 percent, the druid has an advantage over a chanter in a solo environment. If it takes the mob 4 seconds to make it to the chanter after he stops to cast charm, the mob is gonna eat the chanter because it takes longer to cast than the mob takes to close to melee. With the same mob, the druid can snare it and the mob will take over 8 seconds to close to melee, giving enough time for the druid to cast charm. Both classes can benefit substantially from the cleric haste spell and focus effects, but the risk of the spells is fairly well balanced from a casting time perspective.

As far as the resist modifiers are concerned, we are not comparing apples to apples. Verant has publicly stated that Chanters, necros and druids have different base chances for charms. Without some real data that suggests charm is too shortlived for druids, I would find it hard to change resists. When some druids are reporting charms that last 20 to 30 minutes, that is already 3 to 4 times what a chanter can get for half the mana. The mana efficiency of the druid charm is 8 times the mana efficiency of chanter charms. No one is going to get 7 resists on charm for every successful charm - which is what it would have to be in order for druid charm to be less mana efficient than chanter charm.

Also, druid mana regen can easily be higher than chanter mana regen if you go buy a kei in The Nexus. You have to adjust for resists and potentially shorter average charm durations, but I have never had a non dire charm last more than 7 and a half minutes.

Firemynd
12-20-2002, 06:39 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have never had a non dire charm last more than 7 and a half minutes. [/quote]

I've only rarely seen any druid charm last longer than 5 minutes or so, and I'm not basing this from a small sampling. Out of literally HUNDREDS of charms in Chardok, Maiden's Eye, the Grey, and a few other places -- only twice did a charm last any significant amount of time; 14 minutes on one and about 10 on the other.

All in all, I'd say we have about the same chance of that unusual duration occuring as the chance of charm breaking instantly. The middle of the scale does indeed seem to average about 4-6 minutes.

Having grouped extensively over the past eight months with a charm-capable enchanter (max charisma), I can honestly say that her charms tend to last a bit longer than mine, but neither of them typically yield 7+ minutes duration. Like I've said before, the 'maximum possible duration' is entirely moot; if charm randomly breaks before 8 minutes, who cares whether it says 8 or 800.

We also both have DC, and we've both been victims of our DC pets warping back to their spawns, leaving us with a choice of either going all the way back to zone-in to get another (after 72 minute refresh), or making do without the pet. I must say the enchanter is FAR more capable of making do because their summoned pet can do a world more damage and can take a lot more hits than our little bear.

As for your argument about snaring ..... yes that would be an advantage IF charmable animals weren't snare immune. Unfortunately, many of them ARE immune to root/snare (the frogs in PoV come to mind), so the Enchanter ends up with the advantage; those mobs which are snare immune are still susceptible to mez. The listed casting time hardly matters because the chanter has that mob totally frozen in place and unable to act -- in essence, a 100% snare that works on charmable snare-immune mobs. The Druid, on the other hand, has absolutely no other method of stopping or slowing a snare-immune animal to reestablish charm.

~Firemynd

FyyrLuStorm
12-20-2002, 08:11 PM
Aye, the 20 30 minute thing is mostly hyperbole.

Merlman
12-30-2002, 09:57 AM
Heh I love when trolls come here and tell us how uber we are.

Druid charm is nerfed is many ways, our charm should be at least level 63. Course I dont have any 63+ spells and I am level 65 and in fairly large guild. But at this time if I want to solo there is one place do do it, POS frogs. THATS IT! All I can do with out COT is root/dot them one at a time. Maybe two at a time if I feel stupid. I dont have enough mana to quad these at 65 with KEI or Tranq plus my ft4 gear. So I have one spot to solo if I cant get a group, and its rare that I can get a group, even being in a fairly large guild. I have COD key and access to POV/POS and I am working on BOT, but at this time I am screwed for solo spots. There are 1 or 2 other spot I can solo in I have not found yet but I am very limited already and have little hope of those hunting spots increasing alot.


So basicly it doesent affect me alot at this time but I agree the level should be increased.

malkyr
12-31-2002, 10:45 AM
Finally got entrace to Drunder (using Diaku quest) and went to explore. Found animal tagged mobs called "war boar" which were ofcourse too high to charm (in the pit). Also "war crow" are apparently not tagged as animals ... thx stupidity. Also noticed chanters in the pit having fun charm-soloing ... some even using the "animal tagged" mobs as pets. Go VI.

So another zone stuffed in regards to soloing ... unless you like to sit and root/dot mobs with 20k+ hp that drain half your mana pool after a 5 mins fight. FUN!

Back to PoS.

Ligge
01-05-2003, 04:28 AM
The spell rocks but I agree the limit is too low unless they want to us to stay in tier 1 and 2 zones forever.

Spectrals drop in tier 3 and up as a general rule but the spell seems rather limited in an extreme way at that point.

Saraahlol
01-06-2003, 08:56 PM
It is great fun charm soloing as a druid. Our utility spells are helpful. Enchanters and Necros both have similarly powerful utility spells to aid in charm soloing. It is basically a scratch -- chanters have no snare, but they have 5 sec casting time and can mez, stun, mem blur for healing.

No argument needs to be made about druids being the equal of a chanter or necro in charming. The ONLY argument needed is that we work our asses off to get CoT and can then only use it in one zone -- PoS.

Once we find our frog (btw we can only charm one of the numerous froggies in PoS as the others either summon or are slightly too high a level) we have two types of mobs we can even kill with it solo routinely (i.e., nonsummoners) -- beleagured ents and other frogs. There are only 7 frogs in the spawn cycle and EVERY OTHER CLASS THAT CAN SOLO is hunting them relentlessly.

Since we have exodus, we can give a shot at soloing summoners. This is greatly aided by nuking the begeezus outta the summoner in the hopes charm does not break at bad time. This works a bit. But eventually the charm breaks and we burn our exodus.

Without exodus, we can no longer charm the summoners so we are back to competing for froggie kills with 20 other soloers (there are 7 frogs and one is our pet) or the 2 or 3 beleagured ents in the zone.

There are no other zones in which we can use CoT since all lower tier and old world zones are light blue to green and do not give exp.

So the only argument needed here is that druids need other zones in which to use our incredibly powerful and fun NEW spell.

The way to achieve this does not have to be increasing the level limit, although that would work just fine and is a perfectly reasonable approach (notwithstanding the gripes of chanters who would prefer to keep us down and remain the undisputed champions of killing uberness).

Other approaches would be fine as well, including lowering the level of animals in various tier2+ zones to make them useable as CoT pets, and/or removing the summoning flags on animals who are currently uncharmable due to the fact that they would waste a druid as soon as charm broke.

Any of these solutions that enables using CoT in more than a third of PoS would be reasonable.

BTW, of while druids have a one shot chance at killing summoning mobs solo with their CoT pet (i.e., they can burn exodus and then be unable to solo summoners for 90 minutes) chanters can kill whatever they want and just mez/memblur the mob if it tries to summon. This is a further advantage chanters will always have over druids in the charm soloing arena.

So enough with the trite arguments the chanters have brought over here. I have laid out the fair gripe we druids have with our new spell. It should be fixed asap. I can't wait to use it someplace besides on those pretty frogs.

Saraah
Elder Storm Warden
Karana

Ligge
01-07-2003, 01:19 PM
Summoners arent that hard to kill and seeing how most of the PoS things are animals you can use fear to escape without needing exodus.

Just a suggestion. I agree we need some changes, but there are other ways t handle some of the problems at hand also.

Khardan
01-07-2003, 01:47 PM
some changes made to this spell on test today

—Changed Durationtext from 3 hour(s) 9.0 mins @L63 to 3 hour(s) 15.0 mins @L65 to 19.9 mins @L63 to 20.5 mins @L65

—Changed Resistadj from 0 to -25

—Changed Slot 1 from "Charm(16)" to "Charm(1)"

—Changed Durationformula from 3 to 10

Not idea what the significance of the last two lines are =p


Khardan

Palarran
01-09-2003, 03:09 AM
Fear? I thought mobs over 53ish could not be feared?

Klarabell
01-10-2003, 10:02 AM
In HoH... Wrulon Guards still too high. /sigh

Ligge
01-11-2003, 09:32 AM
Yeah I was told fear worked there by someone, I had never tried it. Seeing how I have used fear all of 3 times in 4 years I wouldnt know the level caps. :) I tried and your right, you cant fear there.

Kunoichi Ryuujin
01-31-2003, 03:29 AM
I am tired of getting messages of your target is too high to be charmed when I do have a higher lvl spell but cannot use it on birdies in PON. And other druids - on the Rathe Server -purposely monoplize the bird spawns killing them all off to keep others from charming. That and the rats in PoD too. Being a Druid I really am starting to dislike my own kind ... esp on the highly over camped Rathe server anyways :( Maybe if we could charm higher lvl animals more Druids would move on to those areas giving more oportunities for the rest to enjoy PoP XP.

malkyr
02-06-2003, 01:49 AM
Finally got access to Torment .. zoned in and saw a blue con bird ... loaded up CoT and .... no luck. Target is TOO HIGH !!!! I am soo sick of reading that text.

My whole guild recently killed MB and we all are experimenting hunting in the pit ... We had one chanter in grp who charmed the war boar (an animal) and was doing nice DPS while all I could do was nuke the mob.

So back to PoS .. but now everyone in the game knows about it. We have rangers, wizards, necros, even enchanters running around killing the EXTREMLY limited amount of frogs availiable in the forest section.

So thank you VI for compleatly screwing with Druid Charm!!! I will give you this ... you guys cant do most things properly ... but what you do excel in is how to screw up classes!

Malkyr Tai'Shar - Arora Noctum - The Tribunal

Eyeds
02-07-2003, 01:23 AM
I use charmed pets in groups all the time, the level should be raised to allow us to do this in other zones.

CommesGranmorte
02-12-2003, 11:26 AM
I'm sorry if this topic has been dead, and I've only read 3 pages of this topic (found through a search), so this may have been posted already, but I've gotta help straighten out some 'facts' about necros that have been repeated incorrectly throughout this thread.

level 65 spell, requires a rune.
charm limit is level 60 mobs.

Bleh.. lemme go double check my facts..
Ok, yup.. necros say its level 60 cap.

Also, fear won't affect any mobs level 55+, so that doesn't help in crowd control (in PoP). The original Necro mez.. i forget the cap, but its useless in the planes. The updated mez (level 64) i don't have, but its undead only and short duration.

The new pet heal, I'm not sure if it works on charmed mobs.

The regular necro heal does 500 points of healing over 4 ticks.
I think you can figure out how useful that heal would be in the planes.

Undead charming in PoP? I've heard there's a single zone that its useful in (mobs are usually too high to be charmed, or there's no undead around but the DC-able mobs near GY).

Being a 65 necro, I had the opportunity to get this spell (would have cost a ton of pp). But not being flagged for the one zone that its useful in, I passed on it.

Tenidina Wyndrunner
02-12-2003, 04:49 PM
I think something has to be done. So far, the only zone I have been able to get decent experience in with COT is in POS, if you can somehow manage to snag a frog from one of the other 6 druids who are charm killing there also.

CommesGranmorte
02-13-2003, 09:46 AM
I hear of druids and necros (not to even mention enchanters) that are making 15AA per day (in the few places we can charm).

Should we have tons of places that we can get that kind of exp though?

Its good enough as is, i think. Only our 3 classes have this ability to absolutely rake in exp in this manner.

What about warriors? monks? rogues? wizards? and everyone else? We should be able to get 15aa per day solo charming, while everyone else struggles to get a group?

Sure, sounds fair to me. Screw everyone else.

Its the right of every necro/druid/enchanter to get 300aa in a month if we like; everyone else can sit LFG for hours... and yet, I'm pissed also that there aren't more places I can get an AA in 20 mins.

I'm surprised anyone else even plays the other classes. WTF good are they? What other classes's DPS comes close to the 500 dps a charmed mob can put out?

Luminary Rannma Onehalf
04-29-2003, 06:50 PM
Ok, dateing to a old reply here... Shamans are intouch with spirits... in general... not animal spirits... you will notice if you are a shaman, when you started your epic and killed the guy (depending what race you were) in the beggining a lesser spirit popped from him... The spirits are represented in the form of wolves... this is how VI intended it to be, we have spirits for pets in the form of wolves... Not really in the epic does it say these spirits were of that of dead animals... they are either from things now dead, or things from a higher place (heaven?)...

Shamans are furtune tellers by story line and have foresight! We are intuned with the "Spirits" not "The Spirits of Rover and Scooby"... And we do get a low lvl animal charm, this was to show a small connection with animals.... But in my opinion, no shamans are not intuned with animals, no where near what a druid is by story, and we are far and quite overpowered as it is, i personally do excellent soloing without any charm, and with current charm nerf, i am sure i bring in even more EXP... Shamans are too powerful.... and we always get groups before most druids.... All i must say is, shamans are powerful enough, and long live the druids! And i think it should be raised higher, if you dont like it, dont play EQ, if you dont like the way your class soloes, make another one, or a alt... or "whatever" you need to do to relieve stress and stop blowing smoke up peoples asses on these boards, they have a right for a equality that the have in lore / storyline!

Venerable Rannma Onehalf
65 Prophet of Valoran on the Maelin Starpyre Server

Storam Abruwin
04-30-2003, 05:45 AM
Really what im trying to say what does it matter If we did get a higher charm animal cap.... Think about it Necros Charm undead where do they hunt in the forest? No they hunt where undead hunt......Where do Enchanters hunt In the forest...maybe but doubtfull there is nothing out there other then exp they have to ability to farm huge loots indoors anyways.... Now the druids.... Raise the cap and we hunt animals only animals is this going to step on anyones toes are we going to get in the way of anyone else who charms there mobs? I dont know but from what I have read I dont think there will be that big of a problem. In any case I think this might unite ppl of other classed Druid/Enchanter/Necro combos to become much more then a soloing class. I dont have HOH so im not sure thats possible but who knows could be......time will tell.