The current list is below. I suggest the following changes.

First, replace 1 (currently Fix Exodus, which is currently on test with a possible fix) with the following:


1. Healing Toolkit.

In light of recent statements about no changes being made to 10-second heals, and the limited changes being made to direct heals, the overall limited nature of the druid healing "toolkit" is obvious. Right now, it essentially is limited to two lines: the big 10-second heals, and the moderately fast direct heals. As the first becomes more obsolete (apparently by design), that leaves druids with only one healing spell line.

If SOE intends druids to be able to function in the healing role going forward, then one or two additional tools need to be added to the kit to enable druids to do so. This is so even with Stances, as it appears that a healing stance will only affect the magnitude of the tools given, and not expand the number of tools available.

Possibilities for additional tools include:
- faster heals (nb. this could be accomplished by a new faster-casting heal spell line, lowering the cast time of the existing fast line, by a Quick Healing AA, by a spell haste spell, or some alternative means)
- group heal
- HoT
- group HoT


Any other suggestions?

CURRENT LIST:

1. Fix Exodus (new)
- it goes off after reaching bindpoint after death, putting you at safe point in your bind zone
- causes player to go LD, and not evac (thus resulting in death)

2. 1.5 and 2.0 Epic Effect (currently being evaluated)

- remains underpowered/unbalanced with no healing effect (which should exist in addition to the current effect, as with the other priest epic effects)
- the cast range is too small, and should be the same range as a druid nuke

3. Glacier Breath and Eci: (currently being evaluated)

a. Glacier Breath effectively does NOTHING additional compared to Eci.
Glacier Breath: current resist check 0, 312 mana, decrease CR by 55, decrease AC by 29
Compare this to Eci : resist check 0, 250 mana, decrease CR by 55, decrease AC by 25
In other words, 62 more mana gets only a negligible -4 decrease in AC. At the least, there should be a negative resistance adjustment.

b. Glacier Breath and Eci both need a resist adjustment comparable to Hand of Ro line.
This can be seen by comparing other debuffs. Of 14 resist debuffs:
3 are unresistable
3 have a -200 resist adjust (all take off 55 points or more)
5 have a -50 resist adjust
3 have no resist adjust (Malosinia, Bard ancient debuff, Eci/Glacier)

The list:

Howl of Tashan
Decrease Magic Resist by 48 (L61) to 50 (L64)
Resist: Unresistable

Malosinia
Decrease Cold Resist by 70
Decrease Magic Resist by 70
Decrease Poison Resist by 70
Decrease Fire Resist by 70
Resist: Magic no adjust

Malos
Decrease Cold Resist by 55
Decrease Magic Resist by 55
Decrease Poison Resist by 55
Decrease Fire Resist by 55
Resist: Unresistable

Putrid Decay
Decrease Disease Resist by 55
Decrease Poison Resist by 55
Resist: Disease -200 resist adjust

Harmony of Sound
Decrease Cold Resist by 15 (up to 63 modded)
Decrease Fire Resist by 15 (up to 63 modded)
Decrease Magic Resist by 15 (up to 63 modded)
Resist: Unresistable

Ancient Chaos Chant
Decrease All Resists by 9 (up to 37 modded)
Resist: Chromatic [Lowest]

Vulka's Chant of Flame
Decrease Fire Resist by 24 (up to 100 modded)
Resist: Fire -50 resist adjust

Vulka's Chant of Poison
Decrease Poison Resist by 23 (L68) to 24 (L70) (up to 100 modded)
Resist: Poison -50 resist adjust

Vulka's Chant of Frost
Decrease Cold Resist by 23 (L68) to 24 (L70) (up to 100 modded)
Resist: Cold -50 resist adjust

Vulka's Chant of Disease
Decrease Disease Resist by 23 (L68) to 24 (L70) (up to 100 modded)
Resist: Disease -50 resist adjust

Hand of Ro
Decrease Fire Resist by 72
Resist: Fire -200 resist adjust

Immolation of the Sun
Decrease Fire Resist by 40
Resist: Fire -50 resist adjust

Scent of Midnight
Decrease Disease Resist by 55
Decrease Poison Resist by 55
Resist: Disease -200 resist adjust

4. Fix resist mods on cold debuffs to match corresponding fire debuffs (currently being evaluated)

- note change to incorporate OoW spell as well as E'ci (currently being evaluated)

5. Charm issues (currently being evaluated)

- increase CoT cap to match new min. hynid levels in Vxed and Tipt (druids used to be able to charm the lower level animals there, but the recent revamping of those zones to increase XP by boosting mob levels stopped that)
- need mobs to charm with OoW charm upgrade spell: remove uncharmable block on animals in previous expansions; add animals of suitable level in OoW.
- tag mobs that should be animals as animals (suggested list of mobs by zone being prepared)

6. Harmony issues (currently being evaluated)

- remove outdoor restriction on harmony (no change planned at this time)
- the aggro/assist radii for harmony should match pacify
- need upgraded harmony with higher level cap --> OoW spell should not have outdoor restriction since it no longer has any advantage over any other lull/pacify spell.

7. Snare issues (currently being evaluated)

- druids should share Entrap as AA skill (druids share Innate Camo and similar skills with rangers, and druids get various snares before rangers get comparable spells) (An entrap type AA may be added for druids in the future but there is no plan to do so right now.) - Some abilities may be shared between classes but not all are intended to be shared.
- upgrade to AoE snare with resist modifier and greater speed reduction (so it is not overwritten)
- fewer immune mobs (no change planned at this time)

8. More shape changing forms and ideally special abilities for each (currently being evaluated)

9. Wolf form problems (currently being evaluated)

10. Improved run speed (currently being evaluated)

- "Spirit of Horse": faster SoW closer to run speed of higher end horse or base Selo's, with or without lev effects (floating effect of FoE causes motion sickness, excessive lag for many players)
- faster SoW; indoor SoW
- revised Spirit of Cheetah spell (druid only, longer duration, no long recast time)

#4 seems to be a short version of #3.

One was originally a compilation of OoW spell issues, but now they pretty much have boiled down to the same. How about putting the Exodus issue as No. 4?

I still use the not-a-complete-heals at various times because it's still pretty mana efficient (and because I still get put in CH rotations when the guild needs me to).

My suggestion: take the percentage aspect away, and let it crit like a regular cleric not-complete-heal-anymore does.

This won't overpower druids at any level because the heal is already mana-inefficient compared to a cleric's level 39 complete heal. By the time a druid gets Tunare's Renewal at level 58, most melees have so many hit points that it won't heal more than 75% of them anyway, so it can't really be abused. But, getting rid of the percentage thing WOULD, coding-wise, I've read, allow it to crit, and that could be potentially helpful.

Allowing TR/KR to crit STILL wouldn't make us overpowering because by the time a druid has the AA to have TR/KR crit to what, 10-12K or so, a cleric with the same AA is critting CHs to 17K+.

I am also on board for AA to help regular heals cast faster. WAY on board with that one. Anything to get a faster heal, even adding a way fast heal line that didn't refresh quite as fast, something akin to the fast paladin heals, would help.

edited to add:
ps. I dislike the stance idea intensely. If I wanted to play WoW, I'd play WoW. I play a druid for flexibility; let me enjoy the flexibility to heal and DD etc. I imagine myself, on a raid, as the primary healer in a group that isn't supposed to be taking a huge amount of damage... but still, I'd probably feel that the healing part was big enough to take that stance. And then the nuking fun would be reduced.

I'd like to see the OOW ancient nuke turned into a fire based nuke similiar/identical to the mage ancient nuke. (was mentioned elsewhere on some thread but I thought it was worth saying again here)


Ancient Nova Strike

Slot Description
1: Decrease Hitpoints by 2377

Mana: 525 Skill: Conjuration
Casting Time: 6.3 Recast Time: 2.25
Fizzle Time: 2.5 Resist: Fire
Range: 200 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Deletable: No
Interruptable: Yes Target Type: Single
Spell Type: Detrimental Category: Dir. Dmg [Fire]
Source: Live 05/18

Classes: MAG/70
Duration: Instant
Items with spell: Spell: Ancient: Nova Strike

2. 1.5 and 2.0 Epic Effect (currently being evaluated)

- remains underpowered/unbalanced with no healing effect (which should exist in addition to the current effect, as with the other priest epic effects)
- the cast range is too small, and should be the same range as a druid nuke
The only thing I agree with there is the cast range. The effect how it is now owns, especially when multiplied.

Am I wrong, or is this essentially the same as the earlier lists that has been repeated on this and other sites by numerous Druids for what seems like an eternity?

No one at SoE is listening, and that's sad, because that's what is going to kill this game.

A boycott may get some attention. No Druid's logging for 10 days might just get someone to actually look at the list of issues. I'm frankly convinced that no one at SoE has even read them and is completely unaware that there is a problem.

Am I wrong, or is this essentially the same as the earlier lists that has been repeated on this and other sites by numerous Druids for what seems like an eternity?

No one at SoE is listening, and that's sad, because that's what is going to kill this game.

A boycott may get some attention. No Druid's logging for 10 days might just get someone to actually look at the list of issues. I'm frankly convinced that no one at SoE has even read them and is completely unaware that there is a problem.

I don't understand why people say that SoE isn't listening, when in fact they are. Back in Velious/Luclin days, Verant did nothing but nerf druids and there was absolutely no communication... In the PoP days there wasn't much communication either. After GoD things improved, and we have seen the results. They are listening, people just have to stop asking for outrageous crap that will only overpower us.

You see, druids are easily overpowered, as a class with many abilities. So they have to be careful what they give us. I'm NOT saying that RIGHT NOW we are overpowered, no, we are semi-semi-balanced. They need to make some small changes here and there and make sure they don't tip the balance of our class.

They have read them, heh. It's not as simple as just giving us everything we ask for, you know? They need to analyze it, reanalyze it and test it.

Are druids so ruined that it makes them impossible to play? If anyone answers yes to that i'll probably stop posting about the subject.

Am I wrong, or is this essentially the same as the earlier lists that has been repeated on this and other sites by numerous Druids for what seems like an eternity?

Yea you're wrong, because Scirocco has been the first and only Druid Correspondent we've had. Some items have been left unchanged, true... What other sites? :p

Oh yea btw, my views do not reflect the views of TDG or it's moderators, they are only my personal views.

I don't understand why people say that SoE isn't listening, when in fact they are. Back in Velious/Luclin days, Verant did nothing but nerf druids and there was absolutely no communication... In the PoP days there wasn't much communication either. After GoD things improved, and we have seen the results. They are listening, people just have to stop asking for outrageous crap that will only overpower us.
Have to agree here. Asking that wolf form be treated like every other shape change (Enchanters, Shaman, Mages, etc.) is sure to overpower us.

/sarcasm off

Sorry but when Enchanters get wolf form and it doesn't aggro everything in sight (works indoors too) and ours has been totally screwed for YEARS now, no, things haven't improved.
Are druids so ruined that it makes them impossible to play? If anyone answers yes to that i'll probably stop posting about the subject.
No, they aren't ruined. But that doesn't mean they don't need some fixing.
Yea you're wrong, because Scirocco has been the first and only Druid Correspondent we've had. Some items have been left unchanged, true... What other sites? :p
And how long has the list been around now? With very little done except for us being told that instead of fixing what we requested, we are getting stances to ruin our flexibility.

Wolf form is the sign of how druids are treated by SOE. As I've said before, it would take a 15 minute meeting for them to decide that it should be fixed and about two or three months to fix. What's it been? Three years now?

It is so nice of SOE to leave wolf form as a handy sign of how we are considered by them. I can point to it anytime someone tries to claim how caring and reasonable SOE now is.

Tell me, have you heard SOE's big lie about how this time they really are listening to us so many times you are starting to actually believe it?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me ten times, FOAD Sony.

The exodus fix seems to have answered our number one issue. They are listening to someone.

Just a quick question. What happened to stances? Was that idea just floated and dismissed based on negative response? Stances would have 0 raid utility for me, but I could use them frequently in a group situation.

Looking at the new list:

1. Healing Toolkit.
Honestly, look at the designs of the last 2 expansions. Druids can heal all but 2 zones fairly well, and with the right foci and a decent tank, they can heal RSS and The Nest as well. So rather than changing us and unbalancing heals, they've added new zones built to our abilities.
A faster heal AA should work well for us. The rest is just dreaming I think, and most likely very unbalancing.
I would rather see us get some upgraded curing. More counters, group versions, something. The high end zones have some nasty dots and our current cures just don't cut it a lot of the time.

2. 1.5 and 2.0 Epic Effect (currently being evaluated)
Our epic works fine except for the range. Increase it as suggested.

3. Glacier Breath and Eci: (currently being evaluated)
GB should be powered up a bit, and needs a resist adjustment to match our other lines, agreed.


5. Charm issues (currently being evaluated)
8. More shape changing forms and ideally special abilities for each (currently being evaluated
9. Wolf form problems (currently being evaluated)
These issues relate directly to the FUN quotient of EQ for a druid. None are something we require to be able to play, but all are part of the reason that many of us choose to play a druid in the first place! I used to love running around as a wolf on the hunt. And I charmed my way through 7 levels and about 150 AAs. Just what are we supposed to do with our lvl 70 charm anyway? How does it add to our experience? I would definitely like SOE to find a way to better incorporate these into the latest expansions (OoW, DoN).


6. Harmony issues (currently being evaluated)
7. Snare issues (currently being evaluated)
10. Improved run speed (currently being evaluated)
These 3 issues all qualify as, "we don't have anything better to ask for at this point". Nice to haves, every one. The only one I'd halfway support would be the run speed change, which wouldn't be a bad idea now (1) everyone can get run5 AA, and (2) mobs in some zones run like the wind.

I would really like SOE to take a look at some more general things.
(A) It was mentioned already that they need to start tagging things that look like animals as animals. Couldn't agree more.
(B) They should also look at some of the zones. Why the heck can you cast SOW in MPG, but not summon a horse? Is it outdoors or not?
(C) And of course, the bane of druids and other kiters, summoning mobs. Those have burned me up for years. Just WHERE did they come up with the idea that animals like frogs and snakes can cast summoning spells? I have never seen that in any fantasy setting nor read that in any book. Mobs that can speak, sure, some of them should be able to summon like they do. But mobs that inherintly are dumb beasts without the ability to speak (including telepathically) should not be able to summon, period. Summoning was put in as a quick and easy solution to defeat kiters, but it stinks. Find a better way that ALSO makes sense in a fantasy setting.

Fourchette
70 Forest Scion
Dark Bane
Saryrn

The exodus fix seems to have answered our number one issue. They are listening to someone.

Honestly, the exodus problem was already high priority for them before we added it to the No. 1 slot this last iteration. Think of it more as emphasizing the importance of this particular bug fix.


As far as changes go, we are going to see the same list month after month because it is the same list, except for changes WE make to it. Of course, SOE's responses may not be what we want, and it may get stuck in a rut. Which is why change ups can be productive, as least provoking a fresher look or response.

And yes, there is some burn out in class correspondents. Several classes have gone through 3 or more correspondents within the past year, I think.


With very little done except for us being told that instead of fixing what we requested, we are getting stances to ruin our flexibility.

I have to raise the BS flag on this statement, I'm afraid. With stances, we always have the baseline option. Thus, we always will have at least as much flexibility as we have now. I think we will be MORE flexible with stances, but at a minimum, our flexibility certainly won't be ruined.

I'm gonna go ahead and reiterate and say this again, because honestly, I can't even begin to say this enough. Our Epic is effect is AWESOME and the ONLY thing that should be "evaluated" about it is the casting range. That is it! Period.

Sorry but when Enchanters get wolf form and it doesn't aggro everything in sight (works indoors too) and ours has been totally screwed for YEARS now, no, things haven't improved.

Druids whined 5 years ago about the enchanter illusion:spirit wolf working indoors and got it nerfed before Kunark even hit the shelves. Only with the introduction of the Permanent Illusion AA did enchanters become able to be wolves indoors again. We can still only cast it outdoors but zoning doesn't currently strip it. Not all that useful as we can't cast it on others using the Project Illusion AA or on ourselves after a death/res unless we are close to the zone line. This applies to the druid wolf form as well for classes with a permanent illusion style AA (enc,brd,rog) as far as I know.

I'd like to see the OOW ancient nuke turned into a fire based nuke similiar/identical to the mage ancient nuke.

IMO it should be turned into a 6 tick MR potent DoT. The benefit of a strong + short MR DoT would outweigh a minor damage upgrade to our current fire nuke.

5. Charm issues (currently being evaluated)

- increase CoT cap to match new min. hynid levels in Vxed and Tipt (druids used to be able to charm the lower level animals there, but the recent revamping of those zones to increase XP by boosting mob levels stopped that)


If they raise the CoT cap to lvl 64 they may as well delete the 70 charm and give my rune to someone who can use it =p There's not a single lvl 65 charmable animal in the game atm.

There's not a single lvl 65 charmable animal in the game atm.

*blink* Really? Wow that is really screwed up.

Have to agree here. Asking that wolf form be treated like every other shape change (Enchanters, Shaman, Mages, etc.) is sure to overpower us.

/sarcasm off

Sorry but when Enchanters get wolf form and it doesn't aggro everything in sight (works indoors too) and ours has been totally screwed for YEARS now, no, things haven't improved.

No, they aren't ruined. But that doesn't mean they don't need some fixing.

And how long has the list been around now? With very little done except for us being told that instead of fixing what we requested, we are getting stances to ruin our flexibility.

Wolf form is the sign of how druids are treated by SOE. As I've said before, it would take a 15 minute meeting for them to decide that it should be fixed and about two or three months to fix. What's it been? Three years now?

It is so nice of SOE to leave wolf form as a handy sign of how we are considered by them. I can point to it anytime someone tries to claim how caring and reasonable SOE now is.

Tell me, have you heard SOE's big lie about how this time they really are listening to us so many times you are starting to actually believe it?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me ten times, FOAD Sony.

I'm sure the reason they do not "fix' wolf form is because druids want other changes first and/or make them seem more important (because they are). You can't really compare the wolf-form situation to other class balancing issues. Wolf-form will not balance our class. However, since the first Summit, changes have been made to the way we heal, the way we DoT, the way we Nuke. Remember when they gave us Tunare's Renewal back in Luclin? Tell me they didnt do changes for the better there, suddenly groups wanted us. So have they been listening or not?

People may claim that SoE isnt listening. But those people are the ones that want some radical changes that are not necesary, far-fetched or stupid.

OHH, but what about the items in Scirocco's list? Let's evaluate one point that has remained unfixed for a while now: Glacier's Breath and/or Eci's Frosty Breath. Items like these need intense evaluation.

But Nimchip, it's easy just change it to whatever we want to since there are other debuff lines that already are not as easy to resist, obviously SoE has to do it or we are unbalanced forever!
Wrong. You see, one of the reasons GB remains unchanged is because it will affect balancing on other classes.

First and foremost, why do you think they changed our big nukes to fire, and our dps to cold nukes? Because obviously they either are NOT gonna change GB line, or they need time to re-evaluate it.

Second and probably the main reason why GB line hasnt changed. Rangers and Beastlords. If you didn't know... part of rangers/bstlord dps is on procs and nukes which are based on, yes, cold nukes and cold resist. Rangers got triple attack recently, if their nukes were to be resisted less, they would deal more dps. Beastlords need improvement, but basically the same rules apply to them (though their dps needs looking at). This is why SoE has made mobs resist Cold detrimentals more, not necessarily to screw around with us, but because other factors are at hand as well.

You could argue, but why not change their procs/debuffs to fire. Same deal, they would be almost unresistable and would improve their dps... also then what would be the use to debuff Cold since almost nobody would use Cold spells. Wizards sure as hell don't use them.... I use them, but in certain mobs that I know they will land fully, otherwise they aren't worth my mana. Ah but wait... there's the AC debuff...

Third, the AC debuff. Let's face it. You stack Hand of Ro, Sun's Corona, Glacier Breath AND Immolation of the Sun... and that probably makes us the AC debuff kings of Everquest. Perhaps this is too vague a point, but just consider it. I haven't exactly seen the ramifications of debuffing -100 AC with those 4 debuffs, but i'm sure there's a visible change on melee dps.

The GB-line example may not be the best of examples and may not be exactly true, however it clearly shows that some items in the list involve other classes. It's not easy to just take one class and "fix" it, then go to the next class and "fix" it, and so on... you will end up with a mess greater than what you started with, and/or be on a "fixing" loop. Everytime you fix something you will screw something up. (Which btw, is exactly what they are doing programming wise... lol, silly SoE)

So, what exactly do you all mean by 'listening', Do you need visual confirmation (as in visible changes) to "know" they are indeed listening?



Ok let's summarize:

1) Wolf form isnt an example at all as to why some items in the list haven't been changed as it is NOT a vital class balancing item.

2) Most changes that people ask for druids are ridiculous and end up getting ignored, because they are, like i said, ridiculous.

3) Items in the list are not easily approved or not because they tie in other classes balancing, which in part tie in other classes balancing, etc. An example of this is Glacier Breath.

4) People seem to need posts by SoE staff to make sure they are "listening".


I have lost faith in SoE, then found it once again from time to time. There are things that they do that are just plain bull, but class balancing needs to be treated carefully and with time.

I normally dont post on issues like this most are trival, but we do need some healing changes. A group heal would be nice, but dont see us getting one.

I can heal for most any zone with the current spells we have. Now not as efficiently as a cleric which can cause a slow down in pulls and exp but not to much.

If they would let all healing focus work on TR and KR like the other heals it help it out some. You could atleast heal for 8k.

Am I wrong, or is this essentially the same as the earlier lists that has been repeated on this and other sites by numerous Druids for what seems like an eternity?

No one at SoE is listening, and that's sad, because that's what is going to kill this game.

I might be being a little critical with this statement, but my 2 biggest beefs with SoE concerning Druids are:

1. The healing just isn't being fixed. Other players want us to be able to heal groups. We can in many instances, but in many we can't. Mob AoE's are better healed by a pally, if you can imagine that.

The stances increase our heals by 25%. But healing for a larger amount with the same high mana, slow heals that we have isn't going to make us a group healer.

The 25% increase from stances just doesn't address what so many on this board have said is the problem. It's as if SoE hired some mathematician to come in and calculate out what our heal amounts should be, rather than playing a druid to find out.

WHERE HAVE WE GOTTEN ANY KIND OF ANSWER ON GROUP HEALS OR HOTS?

2. The nerfing of soloing. This has been done in a number of ways, all of which have been discussed to great extent, so won't bore anyone with them here. THE NEXT EXPANSION IS ALMOST ALL INDOORS WHERE WE ARE AT A MAJOR DISADVANTAGE.

With so much concern about *overpowering* us, I just don't see what other class we overpower. So we have ports, there's now a guild portal and pok books to go just about any where. Let's take healing, we are only asked to do this task when a cleric can't be found. Dps, that's laughable. Charming, we can charm some things, but with so many zone lacking in animals and so many animals flagged as non-animals charmers can't solo over lvl 65. In the great outdoors, our claim to superiority, we are just average and indoors we are seriously underpowered with several whole spell lines inoperable. Buffing, LMAO, I go days without anyone asking for 9's or Oak.

When we are invited to groups only when the group can't find a cleric, how is it that we are semi-balanced?

The exodus fix was to correct an unintended bug. That's why it was fixed. All the other issues we bring up are the way SOE wants them.

Those are my 2 big issues and I don't see stances fixing them. It's going to take a change in the mindset at SoE and I don't think they see the problem, even though I see it being said on this board by countless players.

I've put up a poll on stances and healing. Check it out.

I normally dont post on issues like this most are trival, but we do need some healing changes. A group heal would be nice, but dont see us getting one.

I can heal for most any zone with the current spells we have. Now not as efficiently as a cleric which can cause a slow down in pulls and exp but not to much.

If they would let all healing focus work on TR and KR like the other heals it help it out some. You could atleast heal for 8k.

Dude! You have 10k+ hp and 12k+ mana and 800 AA's.

WHERE HAVE WE GOTTEN ANY KIND OF ANSWER ON GROUP HEALS OR HOTS?

A couple of expansions back, I asked about group heals. The Dev Team said that druids weren't going to get group heals, period.

We know what the answer is (or has been). We just keep trying to change the answer....

With very little done except for us being told that instead of fixing what we requested, we are getting stances to ruin our flexibility.

I have to raise the BS flag on this statement, I'm afraid. With stances, we always have the baseline option. Thus, we always will have at least as much flexibility as we have now. I think we will be MORE flexible with stances, but at a minimum, our flexibility certainly won't be ruined.
Scirocco,

Without wanting to get in an argument with you (I have a lot of respect for how hard you are working for us), I assume you have read my prior response to people saying what you do.

I'll summarize here. If you want the full entire rant, I'll give it to you but I assumed (wrongly, I guess) that people interested have already read what I've posted when we discussed stances on TDG before.

Yes, we won't be forced to use the stances. So we can always just play in normal mode. But the fact that stances exist will be used against us. Any pointing out of the inadequacies of our spells or class will be answered by SOE with "Well, in the proper stance, it works fine".

So, yes, we will be forced to use stances or have a character that can't do their job. Bye, bye flexibility.

I thought you knew the history of druids and SOE better than this, Scirocco. How many years did we have to hear that we can't get things fixed because that was the price of being able to solo? Even if you never solo'ed or hated it. So much for the stances being optional. Just like soloing is optional.

A couple of expansions back, I asked about group heals. The Dev Team said that druids weren't going to get group heals, period.So, their solution is stances, which does nothing to solve the problems of healing a group. Stances do not address the inefficiency of having to single target heal six group members who are taking AoE damage, nor does it address how slow those 'fast' heals are, which makes it even more difficult to keep that group alive.

But then, I've found the best way to deal with that is to let at least half the group die :rolleyes: Problem resolved. /cough.

As for why we keep trying to change the answer? Well, a couple of expansions back, the Dev Team would also probably have said, oh no, druids will never get stances. Just as they said no to any number of things now in the game. As has been pointed out extensively, EQ is constantly evolving, and SOE has changed their minds many times on what they'd never implement, yet have. Yesterday's answers ARE subject to change. So why should we accept something said several expansions ago? Especially, when the lack of group heals is still a problem given druids are assigned the role of healing our groups on raids.

So yes, I am going to keep requesting group heals, fast heals, and HoTs until druids truly are 80% as effective as a cleric. SOE's laid down that bar. Yet they do not seem to understand what that statement means. Or could be, they are all male. So of course, bigger is the answer to everything.

Stances just do not address much of what we've shown are the challenges in druid healing. Our heals have been increased (at an increased cost in mana), so the size of our heals is much less an issue now than it once was. I'm content with the size of the instant heals. But, they are still inefficient, and they still don't land in time. Nor does SOE seem to realize our largest heals are pretty much restricted to those druids at the top end of the game. You know, the ones with the bottomless mana pools. Rest of us are told to make do with the lower level heals.

Yet, balancing and re-envisionment is based on us having those heals.

Whatever.

Everyone here makes good points as usual. The biggest problems I see are naturally heailing as well as charm and dps abilities.

They pretty much nerfed our cold nuke which really didnt do much damage in the first place. Dots kinda got nerfed but not majorly. Heals have gotten better but not a ton but we cn still keep tanks up in RS but we definitley need a group heal spell if we are to keep up.

CHARMS-we have fallen waay behind here Dc is practically obsolete in the newer expansions and i dont see how hard it is to increase the level cap on this spell to help us more even if it is one or two level increase.

I honestly dont understand it (appears) that we are continually getting nerfed more and more each expansion. While Necros are becoming the predominant Soloing class. I was so adamant about that i at one point for a whole week changed my Surname to NerfdaNecros

Stances: This is probably being taken from the Shadowbane game where they use stances and i see more problems with this than anything else. more and more Sony is straying from what EQ started out to be and is trying to put all the other MMORPG games out there into this one and its just not feasible

Taen i feel your pain believe me, yes I am high end healer, have my biggest heal spells and one away from all Healing aa's maxed but its still not always good enough. Up until the time that Sony Devs get their heads out of their butts i recommend the following.

Use your AA's wisely, unless you are a resist freak avoid them till u have over 300 AA's. If you are a healing druid then max out your healing aa's asap. Get don and get IHV augment or item IT HELPS. Get Secondary Forte AA. get SCM it helps reduce the cost of the spells you cast and allows u to heal or nuke longer

Nor does SOE seem to realize our largest heals are pretty much restricted to those druids at the top end of the game. You know, the ones with the bottomless mana pools. Rest of us are told to make do with the lower level heals.

Please remember that those of us using Ancient Chlorobon are dealing with Enourmous AEs and DoTs in Anguish and Tacvi. Also note that those bigger heals take bigger amounts of mana from those bigger mana pools.

We healed in Time with 6500 mana and Natures Infusion. We healed in Txevu with 8k mana and Sylvan Infusion. We healed MPG Trials with 9K mana and Chlorotrope.

Having those bigger heals and bigger mana pools is part of progression and it's not nescesarrily easier for us in the zones we are raiding in. Sure when we XP in PoFire we are quite well set for mana but when we are in our element its just as rough as it has always been.

I ran out of mana the first few times we did Jelvan in Anguish just as fast as I ran out of Mana the first few times I did quarm.

There's a lot of bad rap here about druid healing not being adequate for some content. I was discussing this with a cleric friend not too long ago, and she brought up a very interesting point... should druids be able to main heal in the top zones of each expansion? She brought up how this would tilt the balance away from clerics being needed for groups and while I disagree that a group would ever pick a druid over a cleric for healing, the point does hold a small amount of truth.

The speed of our heals might be something to consider. AAs to reduce the cast time of our fast heals to be somewhere halfway between the light and remedy spell lines of clerics would seem to be a fair trade-off. It becomes increasingly difficult to spot heal knowing that if a mob gets a lucky quad and the CH is gonna land in under 3 seconds but it won't be fast enough there's nothing we can do about it. This could be an unreasonable idea though and some math would need to be done to make sure the max heal potential didn't get out of line with balancing.

It is possible for druids to heal in Riftseekers Sanctum, and while it's difficult to do (meaning you and your tank need to be well equipped for it, AA and gear-wise) we can do it. I personally believe that that is how it should be.

Group heals aren't something druids were designed to do. As nice as it would be to have a group heal, we were designed as a backup healer more than a main one. I've found that the heals we have are adequate for spot healing. AE spells in group situations are relatively infrequent, usually only named fights. Spirit of the Grove works wonders for those and Blessing of Oak will help even more in group situations. As for raid level AEs, if they're dealing that much damage, then it is a matter of raid organization to have a cleric or pally in every group, not to power-up druid heals.

A group cure on the other hand would be a very handy for some of the high-end raid encounters. Resplendent Cure works well, but it isn't enough to keep a whole group cured during some of those encounters even with Quickened Curing. Perhaps make a group cure for each of curses, poison, and disease in order to prevent RC from becoming obsolete. Just a suggestion, but it might be worth looking at.

On the topic of our latest nukes, my only issue with them is why isn't our strongest nuke the ancient one, generally speaking those were supposed to be the hardest to aquire. I only use the ancient one because I only have a cold focus at the moment and it costs less mana... and because the Pyrliens seem to have a high FR in RS.

Charms aren't all that bad right now, we just need more mobs to use them on =/ Using the lvl 70 charm in vxed with a chanter there also for pooka charming ended up meaning killing a mob in the average time of ~10 seconds (no exaguration, I timed it). The problem lies in having this spell being very situational with the limited number of mobs that are considered animals.

On the issue of stances, it's one of a few possible solutions that might help. I would prefer to let healing focii affect 10sec heals or letting them crit (or both) to deal with not enough heal power. But as for Sony designing the encounters to require us to use a particular stance, I think it wouldn't matter in the long run. Everything we have is a tool. Nobody requires us to use the 10sec heals, but we use them because it makes healing a tank cost a little less mana. Stances would really be just another tool for our arsenal, and would probably produce the desired effect of better heals or better nukes depending on your role in a group.

Wolf form shouldn't be a huge priority, but it would be nice to have indoors. The only effect it would have on the game is a little more mana regen (for higher wolf forms), higher atk (oh nos, druid melee improvement!) and a slight runspeed change from spirit of the shrew. Other than than it's just an illusion. For balancing this with other classes, one could argue that only the self-only wolf forms be changed and it could be labelled as another self mana buff. Clerics get Yaulp VII, Shaman's get Canni, druids get wolf-form? I don't think it would hurt anybody's feelings or the game balance, but I could be wrong =/

There are a lot of things to be considered with major changes to a class, balance with other classes, balance with content, and class envisioning being among the most important aspects. As nice as some of the ideas in this thread would be to have, that's all they can remain... ideas. Balance must be preserved even if people don't get everything they want.

Please remember that those of us using Ancient Chlorobon are dealing with Enourmous AEs and DoTs in Anguish and Tacvi. Also note that those bigger heals take bigger amounts of mana from those bigger mana pools.

We healed in Time with 6500 mana and Natures Infusion. We healed in Txevu with 8k mana and Sylvan Infusion. We healed MPG Trials with 9K mana and Chlorotrope.

Having those bigger heals and bigger mana pools is part of progression and it's not nescesarrily easier for us in the zones we are raiding in. Sure when we XP in PoFire we are quite well set for mana but when we are in our element its just as rough as it has always been.

I ran out of mana the first few times we did Jelvan in Anguish just as fast as I ran out of Mana the first few times I did quarm.

I don't even use my ancient heal, or chlorothrope for that matter. Druids in the guild i am atm use it freely, but I can't, my mana pool isn't big enough for the encounters we do. So I switched to Nature's Infusion and Sylvan Infusion while my mana pool (and foci) get better.

should druids be able to main heal in the top zones of each expansion? She brought up how this would tilt the balance away from clerics being needed for groups and while I disagree that a group would ever pick a druid over a cleric for healing, the point does hold a small amount of truth.


The answer to the question is yes, of course. Shaman also should be able to main heal in the top zones of each expansion.

No class should have a monopoly on any role in a group or raid. NO class. That includes clerics.

The fact that clerics have a monopoly on so much of the healing role in EQ is why healing in EQ is broken...badly broken.

(P.S. Yes, this will piss a few clerics off. Not all of them, just some. Don't be afraid to state this position...and re-state it, again and again. When the cleric with whom you are conducting your discussion complains about how clerics are one-sided, etc., agree with them, because they are probably correct. Tell them to go push SOE to make clerics fun to play, but that still doesn't change the fact that healing is broken.)

/cheers Scirocco

I agree with Sirocco, and another thing too about the clerics monopole is the they rarely even play, or they don't take the druid as a second cause they get a better dps, or a shaman that can slow and out dps us on our dots now so that leaves "us" druids as can barely cut it to do the main healing. I can heal as good as most clerics but I can't do it as effectively and for a very long time before I run oom. I would love to be able to heal an MPG trial solo but atm I don't really see this happening, I would run out of mana like 1/2 in. Oh yeah and I can't xp rez another disadvantage of having a druid over others...

I was healing last night in RSS at king camp with no cleric, was just a druid/monk wich I was boxing the monk and pulling, Warrior/boxing a Wizzard, and a chanter and we where doing fine, Had to use quick heals a lot though. Our CH is way to small to keep up a tank. Of course I know the tank very well and we are mostly all Qvic geared but still we had quite a bit of down time for medding.

I do think we need some improvments in our healing, either being less mana usage or more powerful heals.

Stances just do not address much of what we've shown are the challenges in druid healing.


Correct. Stances as a straight % increase in HP healed will not do the trick. The druid healing toolbox is woefully shy of adequate tools, and unless these tools are given to druids pre-stances, or are incorporated into the healing stance in some way, druid healing will still fall short.

I re-iterated this point at the Summit to Dev programmers when I could. And again in the latest version of the issue list. As I will again in other venues.

I'm gonna go ahead and reiterate and say this again, because honestly, I can't even begin to say this enough. Our Epic is effect is AWESOME and the ONLY thing that should be "evaluated" about it is the casting range. That is it! Period.

If you are reffering to 1.5 then I think you are smoking something and I want some :)

The 1.5 for non-raiders has to be the bigest load of crapola this side of freeport. Sure the stats are nice.... they are nice for all the epics but the effect for non-raiders... ACK!

-Cass

P.S. Rem the 1.5 was "supposed" to be for the non-raiders of more casual players and the harder 2.0 epic for the hard-core raiders

should druids be able to main heal in the top zones of each expansion? She brought up how this would tilt the balance away from clerics being needed for groups and while I disagree that a group would ever pick a druid over a cleric for healing, the point does hold a small amount of truth.


The answer to the question is yes, of course. Shaman also should be able to main heal in the top zones of each expansion.

No class should have a monopoly on any role in a group or raid. NO class. That includes clerics.

The fact that clerics have a monopoly on so much of the healing role in EQ is why healing in EQ is broken...badly broken.

(P.S. Yes, this will piss a few clerics off. Not all of them, just some. Don't be afraid to state this position...and re-state it, again and again. When the cleric with whom you are conducting your discussion complains about how clerics are one-sided, etc., agree with them, because they are probably correct. Tell them to go push SOE to make clerics fun to play, but that still doesn't change the fact that healing is broken.)

HERE HERE!

Could not have said it better!

-Cass

There's a lot of bad rap here about druid healing not being adequate for some content. I was discussing this with a cleric friend not too long ago, and she brought up a very interesting point... should druids be able to main heal in the top zones of each expansion? She brought up how this would tilt the balance away from clerics being needed for groups and while I disagree that a group would ever pick a druid over a cleric for healing, the point does hold a small amount of truth.

The speed of our heals might be something to consider. AAs to reduce the cast time of our fast heals to be somewhere halfway between the light and remedy spell lines of clerics would seem to be a fair trade-off. It becomes increasingly difficult to spot heal knowing that if a mob gets a lucky quad and the CH is gonna land in under 3 seconds but it won't be fast enough there's nothing we can do about it. This could be an unreasonable idea though and some math would need to be done to make sure the max heal potential didn't get out of line with balancing.

It is possible for druids to heal in Riftseekers Sanctum, and while it's difficult to do (meaning you and your tank need to be well equipped for it, AA and gear-wise) we can do it. I personally believe that that is how it should be.

Group heals aren't something druids were designed to do. As nice as it would be to have a group heal, we were designed as a backup healer more than a main one. I've found that the heals we have are adequate for spot healing. AE spells in group situations are relatively infrequent, usually only named fights. Spirit of the Grove works wonders for those and Blessing of Oak will help even more in group situations. As for raid level AEs, if they're dealing that much damage, then it is a matter of raid organization to have a cleric or pally in every group, not to power-up druid heals.

A group cure on the other hand would be a very handy for some of the high-end raid encounters. Resplendent Cure works well, but it isn't enough to keep a whole group cured during some of those encounters even with Quickened Curing. Perhaps make a group cure for each of curses, poison, and disease in order to prevent RC from becoming obsolete. Just a suggestion, but it might be worth looking at.

On the topic of our latest nukes, my only issue with them is why isn't our strongest nuke the ancient one, generally speaking those were supposed to be the hardest to aquire. I only use the ancient one because I only have a cold focus at the moment and it costs less mana... and because the Pyrliens seem to have a high FR in RS.

Charms aren't all that bad right now, we just need more mobs to use them on =/ Using the lvl 70 charm in vxed with a chanter there also for pooka charming ended up meaning killing a mob in the average time of ~10 seconds (no exaguration, I timed it). The problem lies in having this spell being very situational with the limited number of mobs that are considered animals.

On the issue of stances, it's one of a few possible solutions that might help. I would prefer to let healing focii affect 10sec heals or letting them crit (or both) to deal with not enough heal power. But as for Sony designing the encounters to require us to use a particular stance, I think it wouldn't matter in the long run. Everything we have is a tool. Nobody requires us to use the 10sec heals, but we use them because it makes healing a tank cost a little less mana. Stances would really be just another tool for our arsenal, and would probably produce the desired effect of better heals or better nukes depending on your role in a group.

Wolf form shouldn't be a huge priority, but it would be nice to have indoors. The only effect it would have on the game is a little more mana regen (for higher wolf forms), higher atk (oh nos, druid melee improvement!) and a slight runspeed change from spirit of the shrew. Other than than it's just an illusion. For balancing this with other classes, one could argue that only the self-only wolf forms be changed and it could be labelled as another self mana buff. Clerics get Yaulp VII, Shaman's get Canni, druids get wolf-form? I don't think it would hurt anybody's feelings or the game balance, but I could be wrong =/

There are a lot of things to be considered with major changes to a class, balance with other classes, balance with content, and class envisioning being among the most important aspects. As nice as some of the ideas in this thread would be to have, that's all they can remain... ideas. Balance must be preserved even if people don't get everything they want.

Other classes were not "designed" for runspeed yet they got them.
Other classes were not "designed" for ports or snares yadda yadda but they got them.

The game has changed.... it's about time Druids got to change with it.

-Cass

Not a major issue but something to think about.....

With the new cast times on the DoT's, shouldn't the cast times on DoT clickies be reduced also? Especially the Epic 1.0 which is 9 secs. While I do still use my 1.0 when I solo and don't think it the worst thing that the cast time is soooo loooonnnng (but I have many other options), I would think an up and coming druid who just spent hours, days or weeks getting his epic would say WTF?.... 9 secs to cast?

I would think 6 secs for the Epic and drop the others to 3 or 4 secs would line them back up nicely.

Other classes were not "designed" for runspeed yet they got them.
Other classes were not "designed" for ports or snares yadda yadda but they got them.

-Cass

In my opinion getting people around EQ faster was a good change for everybody. I would rather not have to wait for a warrior to run from PoK to Riftseekers when they could use the guild portal. Yes, we need changes, but simply powering up heals and nukes isn't going to help without unbalancing the game.

The answer to the question is yes, of course. Shaman also should be able to main heal in the top zones of each expansion.

As stated before, druids and shaman can heal for the top zones if they are adequately prepared. The issue that my cleric friend and I were mainly talking about was class desirability. If a druid can main heal with ease in riftseekers, what would be the point of asking a cleric? I'm not saying druids should have no desireablility for a group, but our goal shouldn't be to upsurp clerics as main healers or become a higher dps class to take the place of a mage. What druids need is something that complements the diversity the class was designed to have.

Reading another thread I believe someone posted an idea about having casting disciplines. I would say this would be a great idea (I'm sorry I can't remember who suggested it, I really like the idea >< ). It allows the boost to heals and nukes that the devs want to give us but keeps the flexibility of switching between the two.

I am a raiding druid, geared fairly decent.

My opionions of druid issues:
1) Resists:
Not sure about any one else, but I am getting insane resists, especially fire related. On raids I was average 40%+ full or partial resists, cold is better but still getting about 25-40% full or partial resists. Vots and IotS seem to be about a 33% resist. Its gotten so bad, I have gone to dots (and the dot nerf, really killed my dps)

2) Healing:
We are a one heal, one cure, one group heal class. Currently druids are #3 healers behind Clerics and Shaman, and Tied for 5th on group heals/curing. While I can heal in rs, the kill rate is 1/3 of what it would be if a cleric replaced me. Although we have a 10% advantage over shaman in our 1 heal, shaman have hots that are much better mana effeciency then anything we have in our arsenal.
We have 1 cure and 1 group heal. Pally's have a better cures and group heals, and with their epics shammy have 2 group heals and better cures.

Even if stances were put in now and boosted our heals 25% we would still be on par or a little below shaman for healing.

3) Epic:

Our effects for epic 1.5/2.0 suck, and suck hard. The worn effect is useless, if you are drawing aggro, you need to stop chaining flame lick.

The clicky effect is beyond retarded. What good is doubling our nuke damage for 20 secs when there is a good chance its going to be fully resisted. Two times zero is still zero. I would rather have the epic 1.0 dot then the current clicky, at least it does something. Imho for druids there should have been the choice of 1 of 2 epics. The useless dd one we have for soloing druids and one like the shammy for group/raid oriented ones, and for the love of god, put it in the secondary slot like clerics.

4) Critical Damage:

Crits for 1, 88, 200 make me sad. Crits should do base damage + random(10, base spell damage). Critical striking should not be doing less damage then a full nuke for the love of god.

5) Suggestions:(some are repeats)

A) Scrap the whole hand or ro/eci's line, and do the following.
Line 1) Tash like cr/fr debuff: low mana cost, unresistable, fast cast
Line 2) Fr/Cr Debuff: (doesn't stack with slow) That reduces the targets damage by 20%, ac -X, attack -Y.

B) Give us a hot, 90% of what shammy get. I would love a quise clone that heals 90% of what a shammy heals. Or a targetable oaken guard that abosbs 5-10k of damage, something that adds to our healing.

C) Lower resists on god mobs, when wizzy's complain about resists on god raids, you know druids are majorly screwed.

D) Itemization, fire whomever does the piss poor job on druid loot. It looks like it was designed for a monk. Add more focuses to tier 2 oow armor, and tacvi loot. Increase the drops of leather, omg, we have plate going to app, and druid/mnk/bsts who haven't seen any leather.

E) Up the mana regen granted for mask/mark spells, Our level 70 self buff gives 5 mana, to the cleric 9, i mean wtf, and upp oak too while your there. We are totally dependant on our mana pools like clerics, but get less mana regen (if cleric has oak), and don't have the tools liek cannabilize that shaman do to make up the difference.

F) Give an upgraded pet/charm so the soloers and casual on the board have something shiny to play with. Make it useless and pointless, who cares, its just fluff to keep them happy.

G) Lose the ds component on sotg/sotw and up the healing or add a mana regen to it. A lot of times, its useless as a group heal in places were you can't damage the adds.

F) Give the choice of 2 epic rewards (either or, not add) and make it equipable in 2ndardy. One the useless one you have, and the other the shaman effect. I wonder which one most people would use.

G) Allow us to invis people not in our group or make it so we can invis people in a raid. Now that pets don't poof when people invis there is no reason not to allow it. Its a PITA to have to disband each time to invis someone.

H) Remove the level restriction on levatation, soe/foe, the upgrade to unduring breath and cloak of nature. The whole point of levation vs levatate was that we didn't need to carry bat wings around anymore.

I) Change lions strength to a useless melee +%damage, to a +%damage for caster nukes. It will give us a unique ability on raids and in groups, make it short duration like 36 mins and a group version.

If a druid can main heal with ease in riftseekers, what would be the point of asking a cleric?


Don't let your cleric friend pull the wool over your eyes. Practically speaking, even if druids got everything I asked for above, clerics would still be the preferred healer. More efficient heals means faster pulling and killing, which translates to faster XP and better chance of loot drops. The variety of healing AAs means more security. And don't forget the cleric's res. All points for asking a cleric.

In any event, shaman, druids and clerics all should be able to heal in RSS. That's the whole point of "no class should have a monopoly on any role." The end point should be that a group could choose between a cleric, druid, or shaman to fill that role, and feel comfortable doing so. Practically speaking, of course, this game is too calcified at this late date, and we all know that clerics will always have a healing edge and thus be preferred for the healing role.


I'm not saying druids should have no desireablility for a group, but our goal shouldn't be to upsurp clerics as main healers or become a higher dps class to take the place of a mage.

As far as your first point goes, go back and re-read my response above, and you will see that my position is that clerics NEED their role as main healers to be "usurped" (shared, really) for the good of the game and the good of the other players. And, believe it or not, for the good of clerics....

In my mind, a druid (with healing stance) should be able to replace a cleric as the main healer in any group in any content. In fact, a druid should be able to do so for most content without healing stance--at the moment, I'm viewing healing stance as the kicker to turn "most content' to "any content." If we can't do that, then healing in EQ will remain broken.

We had this same discussion during Luclin...only at the time Sony didn't have class correspondants to keep things a tad more civil heh.

They were loathe, at the time, to broaden the repetoire of Druidic healing, though we'd asked for group heals (even back in NToV it was becoming obvious that Druids were going to have difficulty fulfilling their raid role of secondary healer).

At this stage of the game...sadly I cannot see SoE changing their mind and broadening Druid healing abilities. The best Druids can hope for, most likely, is an increase to their current healing, which will simply act as a stop-gap for an expansion or two. Then, once again, Druids will be forced to return and ask for more healing. The question, then, becomes, will there even be an EQ in an expansion or two?

Druids have always needed further broadening of their healing abilities. We've needed better HoTs and group healing since Velious/Luclin.

I know our healing is bad when I see Scirocco worrying about it. He was always the one arguing for Druid nuke improvements while I was worrying about Druid healing =P

That being said. Mass Druid cancellations in protest won't help anything. Sony knows you will A) Come back or B) no longer be a problem for them if you don't come back.

You have to keep pounding on Sony's proverbial doors making your demands. Eventually they will make some concessions. Use Scirocco as much as possible, he's well respected by Sony. However, that doesn't mean you can't also complain elsewhere. A good well written knowledgable rant over in our rant forum has gotten the attention of the Devs on more than one occasion.

And yes, a Druid should always be able to main heal any content and yes the Clerics hate hearing that.

Druids, they heal like necros and nuke like rangers.

Your target has resisted your solstice strike.
Your target has resisted your glitterfrost.
Your target has resisted your ensnare.
Your target has resisted your ensnare.
Your target has resisted your ensnare.
Your target has resisted your Immolation of the Sun.
Your target has resisted your Vengeance of the Sun.
You say 'damn orc pawn'.
You crush an orc pawn for 26 points of damage.
You have slain and orc pawn.

In my opinion getting people around EQ faster was a good change for everybody. I would rather not have to wait for a warrior to run from PoK to Riftseekers when they could use the guild portal. Yes, we need changes, but simply powering up heals and nukes isn't going to help without unbalancing the game.



As stated before, druids and shaman can heal for the top zones if they are adequately prepared. The issue that my cleric friend and I were mainly talking about was class desirability. If a druid can main heal with ease in riftseekers, what would be the point of asking a cleric? I'm not saying druids should have no desireablility for a group, but our goal shouldn't be to upsurp clerics as main healers or become a higher dps class to take the place of a mage. What druids need is something that complements the diversity the class was designed to have.

Reading another thread I believe someone posted an idea about having casting disciplines. I would say this would be a great idea (I'm sorry I can't remember who suggested it, I really like the idea >< ). It allows the boost to heals and nukes that the devs want to give us but keeps the flexibility of switching between the two.

But you listed that Druids should not get this or that because we we not designed for it in the beginning. If you use one line of logic you have to apply it to all to keep it apples to apples.

So it's ok to give out "core" Druid abilities because you personnaly did not care to use your class as the Master of Travel to your advantage to gain groups, allow your party to travel fast to areas of the game that others would not bother due to the long travel. You would wait for that warrior without sow to reach you without porting over, casting SOW and/or a port back?

IMHO the real issue back then was more that many people had no idea how to get to places and often relyed on people to lead them but yes I grew tired of always having to log on early and stay late for raids being the port whore so to speak. But wanted or not it "was" a needed ability that people wanted and its now gone.... for the good of the game.

So once again I'll ask.... how is it ok to give out "Druid" core abilities yet other classes core abilities are off limits?

-Cass

An AA like divine arbitration that does 80% the cleric one does would be nice and with our Spirit of the grove works the same as their Celestrial regen :) There's no reason we can't sacrifice other's health for the good of the deying one! Hey druids are about sacrifices! They sacrifice me on raids all the time... or so it feels like :lmao:

You would wait for that warrior without sow to reach you without porting over, casting SOW and/or a port back?

With my zone times in OoW? yeah... he'd be faster running ;p

But on a more serious note, the druid "core" abilities as I see it don't really include the mastery of travel spells. I see that as more of a fringe benefit. I was never around for the days when druid and wizard ports were the only way to get anywhere fast, so I'm guessing that the loss of those abilities has had more of an impact on you than it has on me. I've personally never gotten a group because I could port except from people paying me to port them places. The groups I've gotten were either a) no cleric lfg for 20 minutes and they needed any healer, b) group was planning to do content that they believed they needed a back-up healer for (very rare these days) or c) friends invited me. The "core abilities" of the druid as I see it are healing and dps because those are the things that we do in a group. When the group is done, the port back to PoK is a lot more of a convienence than the deciding factor of who to get for a group.

On another note, a lot of abilities have been spread out through itemization. For example, invis, shrink, ds, and now tidbits of heals with the recent patch. A lot of classes have seen abilities spread out and while I'm not gonna say druids haven't seen the worst of it (I'm not sure who has, I haven't played every class in the game for 6 years), we aren't the only ones.

So once again I'll ask.... how is it ok to give out "Druid" core abilities yet other classes core abilities are off limits?

It's not, but lets also consider that druids have a distinct lack of abilities that are druid-only and that they aren't taking from just druids here, what about the wizard ports and shaman movement buffs?

On another note, a lot of abilities have been spread out through itemization. For example, invis, shrink, ds, and now tidbits of heals with the recent patch. A lot of classes have seen abilities spread out and while I'm not gonna say druids haven't seen the worst of it (I'm not sure who has, I haven't played every class in the game for 6 years), we aren't the only ones.


Well your added list made me smile:

1. Invis - Druid Ability
2. Shrink - No way this is a core ability
3. DS - Druid Ability

So the extras you added we Druid stuff also. Without question Druids have given away more than any other class. Prob because we had a taste of so many abilities so naturally when stuff was handed out we got stepped on the hardest.

Yes I was around back in '99 when people valued SOW so much that they would camp the bridges and other popular areas hoping for SOW. I rem when people would camp the Druid Rings so they could get ports.

Such was the value of "fast travel" and while I agree it could be a pain at times it was a "much" wanted ability that we HAD.

In fact so valuable these skills were that very often any attempts to obtain anything for our class was twarted because these abilities were so powerful.

-Cass

I remember the days when you didn't go hunting deep in a dungeon without evac and when Guilds wanted Druids if for no other reason than to get everyone to the raid somewhere near the official starting time.

It's not, but lets also consider that druids have a distinct lack of abilities that are druid-only and that they aren't taking from just druids here, what about the wizard ports and shaman movement buffs?

The difference between them and druids is that both wizards and shamans (for instance) have a primary role...whereas the primary role for Druids was our versatility.

While a wizard is slightly lessened by proliferation of non-character dependant port techniques and shaman are slightly lessened by the proliferation of movement speed buffs, for both classes those were truly just perks. Wizards are desired for their nukes and Shaman for their slows and buffs/debuffs. They are the masters of their balliwicks, whereas for years Druids have been told that the price we pay for our versatility and utility is that we will never be the best at anything, and we accepted that.

However, in recent years the benefits which have been the reasons for our limitations have been handed out, en masse, to the classes as a whole, while our limitations seemingly increase with every expansion.

Druids are sub-standard healers, sub-standard dps, their buffs fairly dispensable, and their utility no longer matters in a game where everyone can get NPC ports and there is little fear of a wipe-out because your corpse can always be summoned to the guild lobby, everyone can have run speed whatever, which works indoors, and seemingly more mobs laugh at snare than it actually effects.

p.s.

It is rather telling that this identical conversation seems to come up every other year. It begs the question: Will SOE every actually fix Druids rather than occasionally patch them a bit when the complaints get loud enough?

When it comes to healing, there are two issues for druids.

1) Lack of healing tools.
Druids basically have just two lines of heal spells. A standard heal line and a near-complete heal line which is about to become obselete. This is not sufficient for today's healing needs.

2) Power Ratios just delay the inevitable.
Cleric/Druid/Shaman healing power ratios used to be 100/70/60. SOE hopes to make it 100/80/80. Regardless of what the percentages are, so long as percentages are being used the gap just will continue to widen. The numbers below reflect what a 100/80/80 ratio will look like a few expansions down the road.

Cleric - 3750
Shaman/Druid - 3000
Difference - 750

One expansion later
Cleric - 3938
Shaman/Druid - 3150
Difference - 788

Two expansions later
Cleric - 4135
Shaman/Druid - 3308
Difference - 827

Four expansions later
Cleric - 4558
Shaman/Druid - 3647
Difference - 911

These calculations are done assuming that each expansion increase healing power by 5%. If I used a 10% increase in healing power, four expansions later clerics will be healing 5490 while Shaman/Druid heal 4392. A difference of nearly 1,100 hitpoints healed per cast.

I'm gonna go ahead and reiterate and say this again, because honestly, I can't even begin to say this enough. Our Epic is effect is AWESOME and the ONLY thing that should be "evaluated" about it is the casting range. That is it! Period.

You keep saying this. Please tell me why the 1.5 epic effect is so great. IMHO (and most others) it sucks ass big time.

Are you being sarcastic?

-Cass

Cleric:
Effect: Harmonic Balance
1: Balance Party Health (0% penalty)
2: Increase Hitpoints by 1500
3: Remove Detrimental(9)
Casting time instant. Range AE 200.
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited

Shaman:
Effect: Fateseer's Boon
10: Critical Damage Mob(70)
11: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 50%
12: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 400 per tick
Cast time instant. Range AE 100. Duration 1 min.
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited

Druid:
Effect: Nature's Blight
1: Increase Incoming Spell Damage by 30%
2: Limit: Max Level(70) (lose 10% per level over cap)
3: Limit: Effect(Hitpoints allowed)
4: Limit: Instant spells only
5: Limit: Spell Type(Detrimental only)
6: Limit: Target(AE PC v1 excluded)
7: Limit: Target(PB AE excluded)
8: Limit: Target(Targeted AE excluded)
9: Limit: Target(Uber Giants excluded)
10: Limit: Target(Uber Dragons excluded)
11: Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed
Cast time instant. Range 100 Duration 5 ticks.

Note: We are priests.
Clerics get a group heal AND a cure.
Shaman get a group heal over time AND 50% increased crits for one minute.
Druids get 30% increase spell damage for 5 ticks. No secondary heal. And we have to get right on top of the mob to cast. The only time this epic is even half-ass decent is for raid boss mobs. Now tell me again how our epic is so awesome?

our description is longer. it must be better.

You also forgot NumHits = teh ghey for epic effect

Oh yes. How COULD I forget the NumHits limiter? *sigh*
They take a mediocre effect and limit it. I feel so special.

our description is longer. it must be better.
True! It's that bigger is better thing, once again :wink:

This effects maybe .01% of the druid community ;p but it would be swell if they added a few more hp to the rune componet of Shield of Dreams (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6368), or made it so spell shield works on mod rod damage.

This effects maybe .01% of the druid community ;p but it would be swell if they added a few more hp to the rune componet of Shield of Dreams (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6368), or made it so spell shield works on mod rod damage.


I've never quite understood the whole stackability thing on Lucy.
Does that effect stack with Aura of Eternity, Maelin's Methodical Mind and/or Reyfin's Random Musings?

Does that effect stack with Aura of Eternity, Maelin's Methodical Mind and/or Reyfin's Random Musings?

yes

As far as a druid's concerned, it stacks with everything except Boon of Recovery (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=2977&source=Live) (and of course Boon doesn't stack with BST SA line).

You keep saying this. Please tell me why the 1.5 epic effect is so great. IMHO (and most others) it sucks ass big time.

Are you being sarcastic?

-Cass2.0 effect. I could care less about the 1.5. And didn't pretty much every 1.5 suck aside from the Cleric one?

If our 1.5 gets changed to a GIMP heal, the 2.0 will probably get changed to something along those lines as well. Pretty much every Druid I know (that has it and doesn't like to clam about something they don't have and chances are, never will have), loves the effect as it stands. Not to mention the rest of the guildees as well. Have 4ish of those in the guild on a raid at once, do the math on the increase of DPS that is dealt on a mob. Or even in an exp group or whatever. Change that to a gimp heal, you're gonna be healing 2% of your targets hp and no longer have that extra free damage.

Side note, if you don't even play anymore WTF do you care? Do you honestly not have anything better to do with your time then to clam about a game you don't even play and/or items you wouldn't even obtain if you did?

Cleric:
Effect: Harmonic Balance
1: Balance Party Health (0% penalty)
2: Increase Hitpoints by 1500
3: Remove Detrimental(9)
Casting time instant. Range AE 200.
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited

Shaman:
Effect: Fateseer's Boon
10: Critical Damage Mob(70)
11: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 50%
12: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 400 per tick
Cast time instant. Range AE 100. Duration 1 min.
Type: Triggered
Charges: Unlimited

Druid:
Effect: Nature's Blight
1: Increase Incoming Spell Damage by 30%
2: Limit: Max Level(70) (lose 10% per level over cap)
3: Limit: Effect(Hitpoints allowed)
4: Limit: Instant spells only
5: Limit: Spell Type(Detrimental only)
6: Limit: Target(AE PC v1 excluded)
7: Limit: Target(PB AE excluded)
8: Limit: Target(Targeted AE excluded)
9: Limit: Target(Uber Giants excluded)
10: Limit: Target(Uber Dragons excluded)
11: Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed
Cast time instant. Range 100 Duration 5 ticks.

Note: We are priests.
Clerics get a group heal AND a cure.
Shaman get a group heal over time AND 50% increased crits for one minute.
Druids get 30% increase spell damage for 5 ticks. No secondary heal. And we have to get right on top of the mob to cast. The only time this epic is even half-ass decent is for raid boss mobs. Now tell me again how our epic is so awesome?Up to 30%/50% increased spell damage on ALL spells cast upon the mob during the duration. Not just the group of the Druid that casted it. That's an insane amount of DPS added if the effect is constantly kept on the mob. Change that to some sort of gimp heal and it's gonna be decreased (if still kept on) and only be group effectable and not target effectable. Thus, screwing over some MAJOR free damage so you can have a gimp heal that most people could probably just regen. We've NEVER been a group healer nor had one, aside from SotW/SotG. Why complain that our Epic doesn't have that effect.

If they change it to adding some sort of healing/curing/whatever focus with what's already on and kept it target effectable and not group, then cool idea. But, if they lower the %'s and/or the fact that the whole raid can ultimately benefit from our Epic, then no. Both of them are of more use in their current states then they will (more then likely) be if there is any sort of change added to them. If the majority of you that are complaining about this want to step into reality and look outside the box, you would see this.

12: Increase Hitpoints v2 by 400 per tick
Cast time instant. Range AE 100. Duration 1 min.
This is a gimp heal?

This is a gimp heal?You think it's going to be the exact same thing that they have? Re-read what I posted, too. Read everything, not just what you see fit to be read. Stop looking at what's just possibly going to benefit you. Look at the bigger picture. Just say they keep the Epic's how they are right now and add something like that. Chances are pretty good that since that's effecting your group only, the % focus would be added to the effect as well, combining it to be made to one. Thus, changing your effect from something that is very useful to the whole raid, to something that's pathetic so you can be cool and lazy and have a group HoT that WILL BE GIMP.

Up to 30%/50% increased spell damage on ALL spells cast upon the mob during the duration. Not just the group of the Druid that casted it. That's an insane amount of DPS added if the effect is constantly kept on the mob.

Max hits allowed per 1 epic cast = 20

That being said, if your guild has multiple 2.0`d druids you'll still be able to keep the mob epic`d virtually the entire fight.

Also keep in mind shaman epic lasts a minute and significantly ups the dps of the melees in the group. If that shaman is grouped with some rogues etc, a shaman epic cast will do more implicit damage per cast than a druid - and on top of that they can heal massive amounts of hps.

At the minimun, they need to make druid epic click have unlimited max hits. But they could really add a healing recourse to it and still have it be under powered to the shamans. Here's an example description of the recourse:

Group recourse, in song window
Cure 5 un-determinal counters
Heal for 300 hp / tick
Last for 5 ticks






<TABLE class=spellview cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=spellview vAlign=center> <TD class=spellview align=right></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TR><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle></TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Up to 30%/50% increased spell damage on ALL spells cast upon the mob during the duration. Not just the group of the Druid that casted it. That's an insane amount of DPS added if the effect is constantly kept on the mob.
NO MELEE-spells only. And for a breathtaking 5 ticks OR what.. 20 spells? oh please. If the effect is contantly kept on the mob? How many epic'd druids do you raid with? If you have 4 in your raid the MOST this effect will last is 20 ticks.The ONLY way this is even somewhat nice is if you have SEVERAL druids doing a rotation-and they can get in range to cast it, which means practically melee range. This helps non-raiding druids HOW? This helps us in groups HOW? This helps us when we're hiding from AE HOW? (the limited range means we have to move to within range to cast-no healing for the time it takes to MOVE to within casting range and no healing while you're moving back OUT of range).Compare that to the OTHER priest classes. Sorry, but this epic effect sucks lemons.

If they want to
1) increase duration to 1 min fixed time
2) increase range to our other spell casting range
Then it would be fairly decent. As it stands now, it just isn't.

A lot of you seem to forget the fact that epic 1.5 was supposed to be for NON raiding people. The Druid epic is definitely NOT for non-raiders, as has been pointed out quite well.
Stop looking at what's just possibly going to benefit you. Look at the bigger picture. Just say they keep the Epic's how they are right now and add something like that. Chances are pretty good that since that's effecting your group only, the % focus would be added to the effect as well, combining it to be made to one. Thus, changing your effect from something that is very useful to the whole raid, to something that's pathetic so you can be cool and lazy and have a group HoT that WILL BE GIMP.

Wow. I don't know if I should be scared or turned on by Dari's avatar =P

I personally like the effect of our epic.
At least for the 2.0, it is very possible to use more than 1 time during a fight. End game fights are most often longer than 3 minutes.

Admittedly, this might not be beneficial for xp type groups ( although I still use and enjoy it ) .

Perhaps the answer is different effects. Sony goes on the presumption that 1.5 and 2.0 users have the same methods/goals in EQ thus have an identical effect but scaled up for 2.0.

I don't see why this must be. 1.5 does not have the same effect as the leaf blower, so why must 2.0 have the same effect as 1.5?

As for 1.5 please listen to 1.5 users. For 2.0, please listen to 2.0 users!!
As for me, Please don't change 2.0 unless your adding more bang for my buck ( removing 20 restriction or adding duration )

Wow. I don't know if I should be scared or turned on by Dari's avatar =P

Anything wrong with being both Aidon :wiggle:

If our 1.5 gets changed to a GIMP heal, the 2.0 will probably get changed to something along those lines as well.

That would suit me just fine. A tool which is beneficial and visible to our groups. And seriously, that is what people notice -- what they see in groups, even within a raid setting.

What we have right now, in groups, is a clickie that *might* occasionally yield a slightly bigger nuke or two before a mob dies. In raid groups, it's a clickie that will get other people a bit of praise (wow nice crit wiz02!!), but in raids we're often expected to patch heal the MT and our groups, so who are we clicking it for, really? Incidentally, I've never seen a wizard give any credit to the druid who made that flashy crit possible.

Pretty much every Druid I know (that has it and doesn't like to clam about something they don't have and chances are, never will have), loves the effect as it stands.

Well, you don't know me, but if you did, you wouldn't be able to make that statement.

I do not love the effect because the druid is a *priest* class and our epic SHOULD have had a healing benefit of some kind. A nuke focus doesn't reflect the dual nature of our class -- the effect is something they should've given wizards (but I guess they did give it to wizards, we just have to carry the staff around and click it for them).

I've heard a few people mention that it would've been silly to expect SOE to give us two epic effects, emphasizing both our offensive and defensive sides... but oddly, that's exactly what they gave to shaman. Go figure.

Speaking of shaman, their epic reinforces their role as a healer. In both groups and raids they are now second only to clerics in sustaining their groups -- with individual HoTs, group HoTs, direct heals, percentage heals, and group cures.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not jealous of shaman. I'm pissed. They got what we've been begging for: heal variety. Difference is, they already HAD a defined role in groups as the game's best slower.

SOE devs cannot get their heads out of their asses long enough to see that functioning as a "main healer" requires more than bigger direct heals. At this point, we would need at least one more type of heal *and* a slow spell just to land in the same general ballpark as the other two priest classes.

~Firemynd

Might as well nip this in the bud too:

Side note, if you don't even play anymore WTF do you care? Do you honestly not have anything better to do with your time then to clam about a game you don't even play and/or items you wouldn't even obtain if you did?

I do play, and I already obtained the item, so before you go spouting off like you're the only one who's qualified to comment, just stick that 'side note' of yours in a warm not-so-sunny place. Have a nice day, please drive through.

~Firemynd

Max hits allowed per 1 epic cast = 20

That being said, if your guild has multiple 2.0`d druids you'll still be able to keep the mob epic`d virtually the entire fight.

Also keep in mind shaman epic lasts a minute and significantly ups the dps of the melees in the group. If that shaman is grouped with some rogues etc, a shaman epic cast will do more implicit damage per cast than a druid - and on top of that they can heal massive amounts of hps.

At the minimun, they need to make druid epic click have unlimited max hits. But they could really add a healing recourse to it and still have it be under powered to the shamans. Here's an example description of the recourse:

Group recourse, in song window
Cure 5 un-determinal counters
Heal for 300 hp / tick
Last for 5 ticks






<TABLE class=spellview cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=spellview vAlign=center><TD class=spellview align=right></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle></TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I know it's a limited number of casts. Are you defending what I'm saying or what? Don't necessarily get who you're talking to.

And if they added any sort of healing recourse to it, chances are since that would be group only, so would the other part of it. And again I ask, why are they going to give us an ability we've never really had now on something that's never been based around healing in the first place?

What we have right now, in groups, is a clickie that *might* occasionally yield a slightly bigger nuke or two before a mob dies. In raid groups, it's a clickie that will get other people a bit of praise (wow nice crit wiz02!!), but in raids we're often expected to patch heal the MT and our groups, so who are we clicking it for, really? Incidentally, I've never seen a wizard give any credit to the druid who made that flashy crit possible.So can you not walk and chew gum at the same time? It's quite simple to be able to keep a group up on a raid, people not in your group and patch the MT and still have time to click in your Epic. And are you serious here. "who are we clicking it for"? You're clicking it for your GUILD/RAID. Do you not understand this concept? And the excuse of "well I didn't get credit from so and so for doing it" just shows how much it's all about YOU. There is no "i" in team, mm'k?


Well, you don't know me, but if you did, you wouldn't be able to make that statement.You have the 2.0 and are complaining about it? And ya, I don't know you. And the more you speak, the more glad I become in the fact that I don't.

Speaking of shaman, their epic reinforces their role as a healer. In both groups and raids they are now second only to clerics in sustaining their groups -- with individual HoTs, group HoTs, direct heals, percentage heals, and group cures.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not jealous of shaman. I'm pissed. They got what we've been begging for: heal variety. Difference is, they already HAD a defined role in groups as the game's best slower.

SOE devs cannot get their heads out of their asses long enough to see that functioning as a "main healer" requires more than bigger direct heals. At this point, we would need at least one more type of heal *and* a slow spell just to land in the same general ballpark as the other two priest classes.And you cannot get yours out of yours long enough to realize you're asking too much and for something that'll NEVER happen.

Who cares if our class doesn't have the same abilities as the others? Each one has the ability to do things that the other 2 can't. That's what makes them different. They're not all 3 supposed to be the exact same. If you care that much about them, dislike the Druid class that much, go re-roll as one of them. Then you can start complaining how they can't do this or that and how they should have something that Druids are capable of doing.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that it would be nice to have such things. I would LOVE a group heal, or atleast a cure that can be used when ever I want and how ever many times as I want. But, to go as far as saying that we can't fulfill a "main healer" role as we stand to get it, is wrong. The Druid class is more then capable of filling such a role and then some.

NOTE: Saying nothing about the efficiency of such, just that you're capable of doing it.

Might as well nip this in the bud too:



I do play, and I already obtained the item, so before you go spouting off like you're the only one who's qualified to comment, just stick that 'side note' of yours in a warm not-so-sunny place. Have a nice day, please drive through.

~FiremyndWas I talking to you when I said it? No.
Was it a statement that was directed towards you? No.

Thanks, move along~

Addressing the issue of Priest Healing:

Here are a few numbers of how druids/shaman/clerics layout aginst each other in healing.

70 - Ancient: Heal Spells (All Healing AA [45% 70 focus])

Cleric: Max - Non Critical ~> 7595 Critical ~> 15190 (775 Mana - Unfocused)
Druid: Max - Non Critical ~> 5353 Critical ~> 10706 (723 Mana - Unfocused)
Shaman: Max - Non Critical ~> 4699 Critical ~> 9398 (723 Mana - Unfocused)

Efficency:

Cleric: 100%
Druid: 70.5%
Shaman: 61.9%

Here's how each would parse aginst a 1.5k quadder (average) over 5 minutes of fighting:

Total Damage Dealt by mob: 300,000 (Max Critical heal each cast, mainly for number simplicity)

Unslowed:

Cleric: 20 Casts/15500 Mana
Druid: 28 Casts/20244 Mana
Shaman: 32 Casts/23136 Mana

Efficency:

Cleric: 100%
Druid: 76.6%
Shaman: 67%

Slowed (Full- Cleric/druid: 70% Shaman: 75%):

Cleric: 6/4650 Mana
Druid: 9/6507 Mana
Shaman: 8/5784 Mana

Efficency:

Cleric: 100%
Druid: 71.5%
Shaman: 80.4%

Note: Cleric and Druids need outside slowers where as Shamans can play the role of healer/slower

Druids fall last in Healing with a slowed mob. This is disregarding the shaman's ability to both Canabalize and slow putting them at the top of the priest class for overall healing efficency.

These statistics are very basic in layout or I'd have to spend a LOT of time figuring out numbers. but we can also take a look at utility of the classes as priests in General.

Cleric:

-Complete Heal (Critical Chance)
-96% XP rez
-Heal Over Time
-Group Heal
-Group Heal Over Time
-Group Heal Over Time AA
-Divine Arb./Epic
-Top HP Buff
-Spell Haste Line
-Yalup Line of Mana Regen
-Low DPS output
-Low-Med DPS Pet
-Damage Shield

Druid:

-Partial Complete Heal (No Critical Chance)
-Non-XP Rez
-Group Heal Over time AA
-Second HP Buff (Mana Regen Component)
-Damage Increase buff
-Med-High DPS output
-DPS Mod Buff
-Low DPS Pet (Unless charmable pet available)
-Snare
-Damage Shield


Shaman:

-Partial Complete Heal (No Critical Chance)
-Non-XP Rez
-Heal Over Time
-Group Heal Over Time AA
-Slow
-Canibalize
-Statistic Buffs
-Top Damage Mod Buff
-Lowest HP buff
-Med-High DPS output
-Med DPS pet

For utility druids fall behind the other priest classes in many area's because we don't have a speciality in any speicific area. Shaman's can fill the roles of Slower/Healer/DPS. Clerics are clearly the top healing class (Disregarding the shaman slow which makes them much more powerful) with the benifit of the top Hitpoint buffs and XP rez's.

Something needs to be done be it Stances or Changes in our heals to put us more in line with the other priest classes atm.

I personally like the effect on the druid 2.0 emensely. It helps alot in and out of raiding situations.

NO MELEE-spells only. And for a breathtaking 5 ticks OR what.. 20 spells? oh please.

Say you have a Tank + Healer + 4 Caster DPS in a group. The average cast time of a nuke is 5 seconds + a 2 second delay. Minor number crunch for ya here:

30/7 = 4.29 (Round down because well... you can't have .29 or a nuke)

then here ya go:

4 * 4 = 16 (4 less then your limit on nukes during the duration)

Seems like the number 20 works perfectly fine in a caster DPS group. Crazy isn't it?

If the effect is contantly kept on the mob? How many epic'd druids do you raid with? If you have 4 in your raid the MOST this effect will last is 20 ticks.

You also need to take into account the amout of time it takes for people to figure out that epics are off and getting them on. Refresh timer is 30 tics, again seems pefectly fine to me.

The ONLY way this is even somewhat nice is if you have SEVERAL druids doing a rotation-and they can get in range to cast it, which means practically melee range.

Generally a ROTATION consists of more then one of a class. I thought that sort of thing would be self explanitory...

I agree on the fact that the range needs to be increased.

This helps non-raiding druids HOW?

Well the click affects mobs in the same exact way in groups as they do on raids. So I'd sugest clicking it in groups, crazy idea ain't it?

This helps us in groups HOW?

See above.

This helps us when we're hiding from AE HOW? (the limited range means we have to move to within range to cast-no healing for the time it takes to MOVE to within casting range and no healing while you're moving back OUT of range).

Well Generally AE's affect a larger area then 100 feet nowa day and most cannot be blocked by walls. I seem to sit outside of the Epic casting range by 50 feet or so and moving in and out takes maybe 5-10 seconds(never timed it out), if you can't manage to pull that off and keep up with your heals there's some problems.

Compare that to the OTHER priest classes. Sorry, but this epic effect sucks lemons.

Then get a case of Corona and get over it?

The clicky effect is beyond retarded. What good is doubling our nuke damage for 20 secs when there is a good chance its going to be fully resisted. Two times zero is still zero. I would rather have the epic 1.0 dot then the current clicky, at least it does something. Imho for druids there should have been the choice of 1 of 2 epics. The useless dd one we have for soloing druids and one like the shammy for group/raid oriented ones, and for the love of god, put it in the secondary slot like clerics.

Hand of Ro and E'ci's Frosty Breath are made so your nukes get resisted less. I sugest casting them before you click in, it does wonders. The Wizards might even thank ya for doing it too :)

So can you not walk and chew gum at the same time? It's quite simple to be able to keep a group up on a raid, people not in your group and patch the MT and still have time to click in your Epic. You're clicking it for your GUILD/RAID. Do you not understand this concept? And the excuse of "well I didn't get credit from so and so for doing it" just shows how much it's all about YOU. There is no "i" in team, mm'k?

I said nothing about having time to click, I was inferring to not having time to use the effect ourselves after clicking it. And yes, as a matter of fact I *do* think the epic should have a benefit outside of "GUILD/RAID" -- because most of the hours I spent completing that asinine quest (/wave absor) were on MY time outside of raiding. And because other priests got an epic that adds to their healing effectiveness.

Don't know what kind of pills you're on, but you can drop the sanctimonious lecturing on "team". Most druids are not in heavy raiding guilds; many are in family guilds or are unguilded. Even among those who do want to raid, some find it impossible because a majority of higher end raiding guilds close recruitment to all but a certain few desirable classes, and for the rest, set suspicously high gear/flag/AA prerequisites.

I'm fortunate to be in an end-game raiding guild; but I'm not simple minded enough to think there's only one style of play. Don't you think non-raiding druids deserve a 1.5 effect that benefits them in regular grouping? Hell for that matter, don't raiding druids deserve that much for their 1.5 or 2.0? And perhaps you are forgetting, but only an extreme minority of druids are in CoA-capable guilds. Most will ever see Anguish; the vast majority including raiders will be unable to complete their 2.0 for a long time to come.

Who cares if our class doesn't have the same abilities as the others? Each one has the ability to do things that the other 2 can't.

There isn't much a druid can do that can't also be done by the other two priests... unless you're going to count quad-kiting or charming, two abilities that have been nerfed over the past three expansions by sheer absence of content in which those abilities can be used for much. Anything else the druid has is easily enough supplanted by clickies or is redundant in groups because so many other classes can fill the need while they contribute in a main role.

If you care that much about them, dislike the Druid class that much, go re-roll as one of them.

Perhaps you are newcomer to more than just these boards. But let me remind you that if druids hadn't spoken up during other times when our class was getting shafted or was being left too far behind, you wouldn't be in a raiding guild right now because your class would have absolutely nothing a raiding guild would consider worthwhile even situationally. And truth be told, the last time we saw guilds proactively recruiting druids was when it was discovered SoTW could be MGB'd; it's a good thing there was a lapse before clerics and shaman got similar abilities or quite a few "raiding druids" wouldn't have gotten a chance.

Had you been around for more than a few years, you wouldn't make such ignorant statements as "go re-roll". If we didn't love the druid class and care to preserve its integrity in an evolving game, we would have re-rolled a long time ago -- and sad fact of the matter is, some druids did precisely that, because they got tired of having to continually ask for basic aspects of balance that no class in an MMO should have to ask for.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that it would be nice to have such things. I would LOVE a group heal, or atleast a cure that can be used when ever I want and how ever many times as I want. But, to go as far as saying that we can't fulfill a "main healer" role as we stand to get it, is wrong. The Druid class is more then capable of filling such a role and then some.

I can fill the main healer role in any zone if needed, but my 1k+ AAs and full raiding gear *should not* be a prerequisite for druids to be capable main healers in content for their level with a range of gear appropriate for their level.

And honestly, the only time I'd main heal RSS is when a cleric has to go and we can't find a replacement; but even then I wouldn't want the job for more than an hour, maybe a bit longer if our tank is a paladin and/or puller is a bard. Not because it's difficult to click the same heal button repeatedly, but because it's frustrating for me AND the group to watch a puller or caster go down because aside from evacing us to the zone entrance, I lack the means to keep them alive without sacrificing the tank in the process; or myself and subsequently the whole group.

If it's a source of frustration for me -- even with the advantages being in a raiding guild affords me -- I can only imagine what it's like for druids who don't have 10k mana, aren't wearing the best of the best high-end healing focus, or god forbid don't yet have all of their AAs. I can only imagine what it's like for their groups when they have to evac every fifth pull, or when the druid gets killed multiple times in a session because his HP were gone before he could cast OG, assuming he even had that spell.

But for people like you, anything outside of your own narrow perspective just doesn't matter. It's much easier to pretend that everyone is decked out in CoA gear.

~Firemynd

So can you not walk and chew gum at the same time? It's quite simple to be able to keep a group up on a raid, people not in your group and patch the MT and still have time to click in your Epic. And are you serious here. "who are we clicking it for"? You're clicking it for your GUILD/RAID. Do you not understand this concept? And the excuse of "well I didn't get credit from so and so for doing it" just shows how much it's all about YOU. There is no "i" in team, mm'k?

Actually, there is an "I in Team" sometimes. If druids don't get credit for what they do for a guild, then guilds don't want druids.


And you cannot get yours out of yours long enough to realize you're asking too much and for something that'll NEVER happen.

Most improvements Druids have gotten from the Devs, over the years, have been because we asked for 'too much'.

Who cares if our class doesn't have the same abilities as the others? Each one has the ability to do things that the other 2 can't. That's what makes them different. They're not all 3 supposed to be the exact same. If you care that much about them, dislike the Druid class that much, go re-roll as one of them. Then you can start complaining how they can't do this or that and how they should have something that Druids are capable of doing.

Ah, the old "if you don't like your druid, re-roll" schtick. It was as tired and poor of an argument 4 years ago as now. Noone is asking for the priest classes to be the exact same. But we have to be equal in ability and desirability to the other classes.

In raid groups, it's a clickie that will get other people a bit of praise (wow nice crit wiz02!!), but in raids we're often expected to patch heal the MT and our groups, so who are we clicking it for, really? Incidentally, I've never seen a wizard give any credit to the druid who made that flashy crit possible.


http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33092

We know where our crits come from. Thanks for clicking and less wizard hate.

-wiz02

If devs change the 1.5/2.0 to some gimp heal i'm gonna be mad as hell, and no, they will not give us a cleric 2.0 type click.

If devs change the 1.5/2.0 to some gimp heal i'm gonna be mad as hell, and no, they will not give us a cleric 2.0 type click.

That's why adding a group HoT recourse to the casters group is the right way to go ;p Would also be nice if they added a 5 counter cure to it so we can group cure 30 counters when combined with RC6.

Our epic is underpowered compared to the shaman epic no matter how you look at it. If they 'change' instead of adding more componets onto it their effectivly gimping it.

And if they added any sort of healing recourse to it, chances are since that would be group only, so would the other part of it.

Just to clarify: Here's the things I'ld like to see,
-Remove the 20 max hit limit -- but keep the damage mod as a 'true debuff'
-Make my suggested 'recourse' a separate component added in addition of the debuff - so effectivly you'ld be casting a debuff and group heal at the same time

If devs change the 1.5/2.0 to some gimp heal i'm gonna be mad as hell, and no, they will not give us a cleric 2.0 type click.

I would rather just have something like the shaman's click.

--edit:

Another thing I just realized, the shaman AA HoT Ancestral Aid costs less AAs over all for its 3 levels and heals the same amount per tick as ours at its 6th level not to mention that they also get an AA that lets their HoTs crit (I dunno if it works on Ancestral Aid or not.)

Elixie: http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33092

We know where our crits come from. Thanks for clicking and less wizard hate.

I don't suppose you noticed, the first poster didn't say anything about the druid epic -- and the very next poster came along and boasted about her own big crit, even had it pictured in her signature, and again not a word about the driud epic. It wasn't until the 8th post that anyone even mentioned it as a passing remark.

That's precisely what I was talking about. Wizards can "know" why that crit did extra damage, but they normally don't give a shred of credit to druids, especially not while people are patting wizards on the back during and after the fight.

I wonder how wizards would feel if nukes enhanced by our epic actually named the druid and wizard in those crit lines.
"Druid02 empowers Wizard02 to deliver a critical blast! (10311)"

You wouldn't mind sharing the credit, right? (Yeah I know. I can already envision the cries of bloody murder over on graffes.)

One of the druid's biggest problems over the years has been other players' perceptions. Even in content we can main heal, they look for a cleric first; when our heals crit for 10k, a cleric's CH crits for 19,200 and people perceive us as half a healer. Even though our buffs can allow other classes to contribute more in a group or raid setting, there's no visible clue save a buff icon that we're in any way responsible for their improved performance.

One thing people DO notice, and they notice it more than anything else, is how well priest classes keeps their groups alive. Or conversely, they notice how many times they die a moment after that second AE hits and we're racing the clock to cast PB twice on each person to cure them, and hopefully getting around to healing them as well before they're too low health to be saved. Or how many times they die to a few seconds of aggro and glare at the group's druid, knowing a cleric could have used DivArb or their epic clickie to save them without drawing aggro and ping-ponging the mob.

~Firemynd

That's why adding a group HoT recourse to the casters group is the right way to go ;p Would also be nice if they added a 5 counter cure to it so we can group cure 30 counters when combined with RC6.

Our epic is underpowered compared to the shaman epic no matter how you look at it. If they 'change' instead of adding more componets onto it their effectivly gimping it.



Just to clarify: Here's the things I'ld like to see,
-Remove the 20 max hit limit -- but keep the damage mod as a 'true debuff'
-Make my suggested 'recourse' a separate component added in addition of the debuff - so effectivly you'ld be casting a debuff and group heal at the same time

Yea but let's be real... they won't. In the end they will give something completely ridiculous and we'll be all left regretting why we gave up the click in the first place.

I agree on your points, the 20 casts limit should be removed. Should is key word here, so yea, that's up to them.

If you care that much about them, dislike the Druid class that much, go re-roll as one of them. Then you can start complaining how they can't do this or that and how they should have something that Druids are capable of doing.
Funny thing. If all the paladins, shadowknights, and warriors had just given up on their classes and rerolled to something else, there'd be no plate tanks in EQ.

Instead, they kept after SOE until their respective classes were fixed.

It isn't that we dislike the druid class. Of all the classes I've tried (all but warrior, wizard, and ranger), I've yet to find one that suits me as well as the druid. That doesn't mean I'm going to sit down and shut up over things I feel need to be fixed.

As main healer in the majority of my groups, there are problems with druid healing. I'm sure I too will have few problems main healing when I have a 10k mana pool and all those important AA. Won't help those druids who don't have a 10k mana pool or who haven't yet got those AA. But that's ok. Because I will be "fixed." and who cares about anyone else, right?

A druid at any level should be able to main heal a group in all content appropriate to their level. They should not have to give up that spot to a cleric 10 levels or more lower because of inadequate heals. Now, if SOE wants to back down from their promises, that's another thing. But SOE has stated a druid or a shaman should be able to main heal a group in place of a cleric. It's their responsibility now to give us the tools to do so.

A quest that involves us curing a disease should not have as a reward an epic that causes a disease :rolleyes: That is just so wrong on so many levels. A priest epic with no healing ability, when the other two priest epics heal, says to me that SOE really doesn't think of druids as healers. While it may not have been their intention ... it is the message they send to us and to all the other classes.

When something is wrong, you keep pushing until it is fixed. Otherwise, nothing changes. That's how it works in real life, that's how it works in EQ. Had women not insisted on equal rights, we'd all still be pregnant, barefoot, and in the kitchen. Had we not fought against slavery, we'd still have slaves in the US. Had druids not insisted on changes over the years, there would be no place now in groups or in guilds for druids.

A quest that involves us curing a disease should not have as a reward an epic that causes a disease :rolleyes: That is just so wrong on so many levels. A priest epic with no healing ability, when the other two priest epics heal, says to me that SOE really doesn't think of druids as healers. While it may not have been their intention ... it is the message they send to us and to all the other classes.

With that said how come our 1.0 has a DoT on it then? Funny how I get taken to heal alot of the time, regardless of what my epic is isn't it? You speak of the 1.5/2.0 as if you've experienced the difference between what it is and isn't yet I don't see it in your magelo. From what I'm seeing all this whining is just for a crutch, get over it.

Yea but let's be real... they won't.

We do have a good case with why there should more added to it - that being that how as a 'dps' support based epic we arguably fall short of the shaman epic, and thats even before the heal componet. Whether they will do something, I don't know.

But if there's one thing I know about SoE, here's how you get things changed. It needs to be presented in the Veteran's Louge, you have to huge bandwagon of support, and you have to write it up in a way so Ky and Ash don't move it - which will be difficult since its in some ways based around a class. But, I definaly think getting some changes is a posibility.

With that said how come our 1.0 has a DoT on it then? Funny how I get taken to heal alot of the time, regardless of what my epic is isn't it? You speak of the 1.5/2.0 as if you've experienced the difference between what it is and isn't yet I don't see it in your magelo. From what I'm seeing all this whining is just for a crutch, get over it.
You're assuming I ever agreed that cleansing the land as we do for epic 1.0 should result in an weapon that unleashes devastation. Far as I'm concerned, the lore is as flawed with the 1.0 epic as it is with the 1.5/2.0.

The difference between the 1.0s and 1.5/2.0s in that neither the shaman nor the druid 1.0 epics have heals. Both have DoTs. So both classes were treated pretty evenly with their 1.0 epics.

We do have a good case with why there should more added to it - that being that how as a 'dps' support based epic we arguably fall short of the shaman epic, and thats even before the heal componet. Whether they will do something, I don't know.

But if there's one thing I know about SoE, here's how you get things changed. It needs to be presented in the Veteran's Louge, you have to huge bandwagon of support, and you have to write it up in a way so Ky and Ash don't move it - which will be difficult since its in some ways based around a class. But, I definaly think getting some changes is a posibility.

You're right, it will be difficult, because the second we post something along the lines of "we want a heal in our epic" in the Veteran Lounge forums, clerics will come out like rabid wolves and flame the hell outta everything we say. Do i give a damn about what clerics say? No, but the fact is, the flames alone will make Kyth and Ash ignore the whole thing.


A quest that involves us curing a disease should not have as a reward an epic that causes a disease That is just so wrong on so many levels. A priest epic with no healing ability, when the other two priest epics heal, says to me that SOE really doesn't think of druids as healers. While it may not have been their intention ... it is the message they send to us and to all the other classes.

Since when did SoE or Verant give a damn about the Lore behind the item?

Since when did SoE or Verant give a damn about the Lore behind the item?
uh, right. SOE!

The same company that dresses Firiona Vie, a paladin, in skimpy harem clothing and has her carry a caster's staff :wink:

Let me go ahead and say this again. I'm simply stating the idea of asking for a group type heal and/or cure on our Epic when we don't even have the ability in the first place is far fetched. I'm stating changing the Epic to add such a focus and making it so our Epic effect is group only instead of target based, is MORONIC and a stupid. Re-read what I said and you'll realize that.

I know you get places by complaining and/or suggesting changes. I'm not saying the effect idea itself is stupid, so much. Look at the other Epics and realize if such an effect is added, not only will it be group only, the current state and/or the heal that would be added would probably be gimpified. As Dimchip said, YOU'RE NOT GONNA GET A CLERIC TYPE FOCUS! It will be gimp. Focus on asking for spells and/or AA's. Don't focus on trying to nerf and gimp our Epic up.

The same company that dresses Firiona Vie, a paladin, in skimpy harem clothing and has her carry a caster's staff

Um, I'm rather in favor of the whole scantily clad approach to Firiona Vie toon. :thumbup:

I've read alot of comments here and it seems that Druids dont realise there are other classes out there. Hold the flames a sec while I explain 2 things.

1. All other classes are the same. None think they are 'fixed'.

2. As the saying goes 'Every Action has a Re-action'. If you give Druids the same heals and group heals as Clerics and then also a heal over time like Shammies, then that will need additions to be made to said classes. Those changes in turn will have a knock on effect to other classes that none of us could forsee.

Its a tricky business this, so do not whinge. Take some positive action and try to make your suggestions realistic.

The same healing capabilities as a Cleric isnt going to happen.

Druids being Main Healers in high level content should be possible.

One avenue I think the Druid correspondent should pursue is the loss of effectiveness of transport spells.

In addition next time you feel the Druid class is being neglected, try making a Chanter, those guys have truely been neglected!

All other classes are the same. None think they are 'fixed'.

Too true, but here's some important facts:

-Druid were one of the most out of balance classes in PoP, and I most surely said it than so I'm not just talking out my ass
-Since that time, shamans have had numerous abilities added / improved
-Since that time, druids have had no useful abilities added and other useful abilities we had that were zone/mob dependent are now deemed useless

So, in effect its very safe to say shamans passed us. How you ask? Well shamans were never that bad off in the first place, but after constant complaining on every front they could get they got their abilities. How do you think warriors got incite? and cyclone?

Ask for the epic 1.5 and 2.0 to have have focus effects that strongly increase existing AA skills such as spirit of the wood perhaps. This would make a positive difference to all high end druids, would be entirely within the theme of the class, and would not tread on the toes of other classes.

I'm with lanamien on this-GET OFF THE EPIC :mad2:

For it to increase AAs like spirit of the wood/grove, utilities, it would not have as great an effect as it does now. lets think of a couple it Would affect, shall we?
Spirit of the Wood/Grove
Wrath of the Wild
Nature's/Forest's Boon (ward- maybe doesnt even count here)
...
and thats about it on utilities. Ultimately the 1.5/2.0 effects are better as they are now than affecting only a few utility AAs- in addition, although its not likely, the effect would Suck for those who didnt have these AAs yet. ive yet to see an (equippable) item in everquest that directly affects/works with alternate advancement.

I think we need to focus our real concerns. We need to really focus on heals and try to act with a unified voice if possible. Other classes have been successful at moving SOE's perceptions by picking one simple issue and flogging it to death. We should perhaps consider a similar approach.

I've read alot of comments here and it seems that Druids dont realise there are other classes out there. Hold the flames a sec while I explain 2 things.

1. All other classes are the same. None think they are 'fixed'.

2. As the saying goes 'Every Action has a Re-action'. If you give Druids the same heals and group heals as Clerics and then also a heal over time like Shammies, then that will need additions to be made to said classes. Those changes in turn will have a knock on effect to other classes that none of us could forsee.

Its a tricky business this, so do not whinge. Take some positive action and try to make your suggestions realistic.

The same healing capabilities as a Cleric isnt going to happen.

Druids being Main Healers in high level content should be possible.

One avenue I think the Druid correspondent should pursue is the loss of effectiveness of transport spells.

In addition next time you feel the Druid class is being neglected, try making a Chanter, those guys have truely been neglected!

Unless you are to "assume" that the Druid Class was "balanced" in the first place (please don't make me laugh) after SOE gave most of our core abilities away with ZERO compensation then saying that giving Druids someing "requires" others classes gaining something is silly.

If a class is behind you cannot balance it by giving "every" class the same. The goal is to bring up the class that is behind.

Let me ask you this.... when SOE put port stones all over the place, gave everyone a better runspeed than SOW, passed out DS's, snares and other Druid abilities.... what did the Druid Class get in return? A few gimp heals that we should have gotten anyway due to mob inflation?

I guess I'm getting pretty sick and tired of having to beg, borrow and steal just to "try" and remain a viable class. Heck even SOE admitted months ago that Druids needed "serious" work yet back down yet again thanks to the other classes telling us how great the druid class is yet at the same time not wanting to group with such an uber class ROTFL.

I love this....

Non-druid class: Druid are great and need nothing!
Druid: Can I group with you?
Non-druid class: ahh... err.... no.... we need better healing than you have or we need more DPS than you can give or... sorry you need 10,000 aa points and full time gear yadda yadda

How do you spell HYPOCRITE? (did I spell it right? LOL)

-Cass

I think we need to focus our real concerns. We need to really focus on heals and try to act with a unified voice if possible. Other classes have been successful at moving SOE's perceptions by picking one simple issue and flogging it to death. We should perhaps consider a similar approach.

People can't even decide HoT vs group heal ;p I doubt we could enough backing to push a single issue tot he extent you suggest, though I do agree thats a wise approach.

Steven51:
The same healing capabilities as a Cleric isnt going to happen.

I wouldn't expect all the same healing capabilities as a cleric... but it's entirely possible to expand the druid's capabilities and still not even come close to infringing on the cleric's niche as the game's specialist healer.

This was a mistake SOE made a long time ago, back when we were referring to them as Verant/VI. Instead of giving all three priests the basic healing toolkit and then giving each its own specialty lines in healing, devs gave clerics ALL lines of healing and decided the other two priests would supplement their one or two lines with a combination of offensive and mitigation abilities.

That worked out pretty well for the shaman, whose primary mitigation ability (slow) was percentage-based and therefore scaled with content. It didn't work out so well for druids, when mudflation began dictating that a group need a.) strong raw healing or b.) strong mitigation or c.) a combination of both. We had neither, and were left in the precarious position of hoping that groups might find our nuking/healing flexibility useful. And that worked for a while, but apparently, only because we also offered prospective groups some travel conveniences.

SOE stated in their "re-envisionment" plans that they want all three priest classes to be capable of serving as a group's main healer. Therefore, what I expect is for SOE's dev team to realize what is quite obvious to many of us: that they're not going to accomplish this goal as long as they're simply looking at numbers and charts.

What I expect is for SOE's spell designers to actually LOG ON and PLAY A DRUID as main healer in current 70th level zones for at least a week or two... using different gear sets to gain perspective of druids at various stages of progression. I expect them to play druid 'main healer' in groups with various combinations of classes (e.g. warrior tank one day, shadowknight tank the next, and shaman slower one day, chanter slower the next)...

... and THEN they can sit down and decide what the druid's healing kit needs in order to acheive SOE's stated goal.

Looking at the changes they've already made (i.e. boosts to existing heals), and looking at their proposed stance idea, it is very clear that SOE is relying far too much upon comparitive "heal-per-second" ratios, rather than looking at the practical aspects of healing and all the situational challenges of healing in today's content.

That is why the "stance" idea is NOT going to help us much defensively unless it does more than boost heals by a percentage. If devs would really put some effort into seeing druid heal issues firsthand as suggested above they'd easily see that druids need more than one type of heal, not just bigger numbers on the types we already have.

Compounding the issue, SOE is making us wait until they've determined what shaman need for healing before they'll take further steps to improve ours. What they aren't acknowledging is that shaman already have a grouping role and aren't sitting on the sidelines waiting for fixes. What harm would come from addressing the druid's concerns while they're still working on tweaks for shaman? I'd argue: none. Shaman are not depending on their healing capabilities as their sole appeal to groups.

What I expect, is for SOE to stop listening to a few non-druids whining that this class doesn't need any more healing tools, and figure out for themselves what is really needed to accomplish the goal they already outlined ... and just do it.

As for the druid 1.5/2.0 epic, a couple druids seem to feel threatened because we're asking for SOE to add a group heal recourse. I would remind them that if it hadn't been for us beating down SOE's door and insisting that our epic was underpowered, we'd all still be using a clickie that only improved nukes by 1 to 5%. (Frankly, I still think it should improve all nukes a flat 30/50%, not just randomly 1-30/1-50).

Comparing ours to cleric/shaman epic effects is *not* the same as asking for ours to be changed into some variant of thiers. The comparison is simply to show that ours needs to be as useful as theirs in non-raid settings.

~Firemynd

The other problem with focusing on heals is that getting significant advances in heals likely will come at the cost of additional losses on our DPS side. For a significant number of druids that view their druid as a storm wizard with some healing capabilities, that is a serious problem. Not all druids are unhappy with the druid healing abilities, and even more would not want to increase druid healing abilities at the potential cost of DPS.

Quite frankly, if the EQ druid advances in healing to the point where it becomes like the druid in EQ2 (i.e., a main healer fairly equivalent to the other two priest classes), then most likely the druid as I know and love it will be destroyed. There's a reason I don't play a druid in EQ2 or WoW. (And if that dark day ever comes, I'll close up shop and head elsewhere for good. And nominate Cass for Druid Correspondent ... :)

That's why I like the idea of stances. It has the potential to allow all the Tunare-lovin' healing druids out there to boost their healing abilities, while allowing me to turn my firepower up a notch (I'll hit my nuke stance on day one, and I won't ever turn on the healing stance unless a true emergency arises).

The last thing I want is to be stuck into a CH chain because I can heal just like a cleric with my main heals and have the cleric become the group healer because of their group heals...

If you guys really want an awful time in eq...ask for better healing, then we can become a fricking cleric in the sense of how clerics get used by end game guilds, basically a bot that hits a ch key every 10 second until you win or until you wipe. Sounds like a heck of a lot of fun to me.

Right now I dread it when on occaison we don't have enough clerics and I have to be in a ch chain. Think about having to be in one all the time.


Why do you think clerics are the whinyest class in eq? Because their time is spent mashing a couple of fricking buttons while hoping their tank lives.

With the 2.0 epic (And yeah I think the distance for clicking could be expanded), our guild has an epic clicky chain going throughout the fight. It adds a TON of extra damage to the overall fight.

I never really hurt for xp because even if I don't find a group, at least I don't sit around for 3-4 hours lfg like a warrior or pally or monk do. I can actually get xp while LFG. I don't like to solo all the time, but I know that I can when I want to.

More than anything I wish they would continue to keep a strong versatility for our class. The only thing I would like to see is a shorter time on reuse of Spirit of the Grove and remove the Damage shield or make it so that it works like armor and does +DS when the person has a Spell DS on it..So we could actually use the SoTG in fights that will cause you to wipe if you have a DS on.

Thanks Scirocco. You made me lose sight of the forest for one particularly large tree. My point -- though not adroitly made -- is that we need to focus on one unified message. Since there are many storm wizards out there (myself included) who have never changed their spec to alteration, and also many Tunare types, the best compromise position that has been floated to date has been stances. I personally like the idea of stances because it allows us to be both generalists, specialists, and a nice mix of the two. Not only that, but SOE has actually declared that we would be getting stances in the context of class balancing.

Probably the best tactical approach would be to figure out what we actually want the stances to accomplish. Do we want to be an 80% cleric in stance? Do we want to be an 80% wizard? What are the limitations in a stance? What are the reset parameters? Is it 5 minutes, 15 minutes, or an hour? What happens to focus effects? What happens if you die -- does the timer reset? Are there any locations or zones where stances do not work?

We all know that SOE has committed to do stances. The question I have is how do we get them to balance them appropriately. A focused approach to how we would like to see them work would be more productive than talking about changing our epic, etc.

And again I'll say that if defensive stance only adds a % to our existing heals without adding another type of heal, it will not be enough for SOE's stated goal (whether we like it or not), of having all three priests being able to serve as main healers in groups.

On the other hand, it's possible that offensive stance will allow us to do enough damage that groups will come to see us as a viable choice for a DPS role. And yes, we all know some druids insist they already get invited for DPS, but it's far more likely those groups simply had no other option at the time or just felt obligated to invite a friend/ guildmate over a 'real' DPS class.

I have my doubts, though, because player perception is so terribly difficult to change; but if DPS becomes our main grouping appeal within a reasonable timeframe, I won't complain a bit that druids still lack desirability as main healers.

My primary focus is simple: make sure that after this re-envisioning stuff is over, the druid class is perceived as sufficiently capable of filling an essential grouping role in content that groups actually want to do... not zones two or three expansions old.

As for being tossed into a CH chain more often? That is exactly what defensive stance will do IF it only boosts our existing heals by a %, which is why I'm suggesting that def stance should add variety instead of only increasing numbers on what we already have.

The stance idea has potential, but it's a mistake to assume that just because offensive boosts existing nukes and weaken heals, defensive should merely boost heals and weaken nukes by the same ratios. In my opinion, we're looking at two different roles, and therefore these stances should not be designed as though they're opposite ends of the same line. Each should explore benefits which reinforce the role for which it is intended, not just flat % increases.

~Firemynd

The other problem with focusing on heals is that getting significant advances in heals likely will come at the cost of additional losses on our DPS side. For a significant number of druids that view their druid as a storm wizard with some healing capabilities, that is a serious problem. Not all druids are unhappy with the druid healing abilities, and even more would not want to increase druid healing abilities at the potential cost of DPS.

Quite frankly, if the EQ druid advances in healing to the point where it becomes like the druid in EQ2 (i.e., a main healer fairly equivalent to the other two priest classes), then most likely the druid as I know and love it will be destroyed. There's a reason I don't play a druid in EQ2 or WoW. (And if that dark day ever comes, I'll close up shop and head elsewhere for good. And nominate Cass for Druid Correspondent ... :)

That's why I like the idea of stances. It has the potential to allow all the Tunare-lovin' healing druids out there to boost their healing abilities, while allowing me to turn my firepower up a notch (I'll hit my nuke stance on day one, and I won't ever turn on the healing stance unless a true emergency arises).

Oh no you don't LOL

I'll go nuts if I don't have someone to yell at *smiles*

-Cass

So what we really need is the following:

1. Stances that work for DPS type friends where linear damage improvement would be acceptable -- i.e. increase in either burst DPS, mana efficiency or both.

2. A revamping of the healing system in coordination with the stances that does not turn us into CH bots but rather give us more flexibility in terms of both group heals and speed without taking away the core competency of any other class.

Is that a fair summary?

Here's my view, which I have said elsewhere as well over the past several months:

1. On the DPS side, we want burst DPS over mana efficiency. That can work well with a straightforward % increase in damage. Would you rather have +25% damage, or a reduction of mana cost by 25%? No question which one I'd choose.

The main issue here is what spells will the increase apply to? My thought is that it ought to apply at least to all of our immediate damage spells: DDs, AoEs, PBAE, rain spells, stuns. I'd also like it to extend to our DoTs, especially if we get dinged for 50% on our healing. (Of course, there are good reasons to not include DoTs, since that way they may escape the 50% ding for healing stance. Only those spells that are affected beneficially should suffer the negative hit. With unaffected DoTs, even healing druids may have their DoTs for damage.)

2. On the healing side, I have stated several times to SOE that a simple increase to HP per heal will not do the trick. The druid healing tool kit is short of tools. I don't care if the tools come as new base line spells, through AA improvements, heal spell haste, or are built into stances (although I think building them into stances will make the stance coding too complex and bug ridden).

If the toolkit is adequate, then a straightforward % increase would be fine with me.

Works for me Scirocco! Hope they listen...

Nature's/Forest's Boon (ward- maybe doesnt even count here)

I don't want an upgrade for that waste of AAs, the only thing in the game that makes it even REMOTELY useful is the MGB bug.

God, no wonder we don't get anything.

Group A) we want to be heal and cure our groups.

Group B) please don't give us heals, we don't like to heal, we like being gimp wizards.

Soe) Haha druids can't even make up their mind, lets ignore them per usual. Lets give ports to rogues and warriors.


Hand of Ro and E'ci's Frosty Breath are made so your nukes get resisted less. I sugest casting them before you click in, it does wonders. The Wizards might even thank ya for doing it too

Usually Eci's resist a couple times, though i can usually land it right before a mob dies. If they are going to make it so we have to use eci's/ro to land a spell at least make them usable. Make a combination fr/cr debuff like tash, 1.0 sec cast time, 75 mana, unresistable for gods sake.


Whomever did that healing table, shammys would never spam heal, its too ineffecient, they would hot then patch as necessary. So while we are forced to spam that 1 heal over and over til we oom. A shammy or cleric can keep up a tank longer and more efficient then we can.

Stances
Are going to suck and suck hard. simply making them +% is useless.

Ok mr. wizard inc 3800 + 25% heal to you in 3.....2.... damn your dead, should have invited a shammy or cleric or paladin.

Theres been a few points made since my last post but I'd firstly like to state one thing.

I do not think Druids are the finished article. I do think improvements need to be made. I think, however that complaining about things is not the way to get them done. If you put forward your argument with viable reasons calmly you look less of a whacko.

Someone said Druids were unbalanced in PoP. Lets go back before that. Back in the Luclin Era and before, Druids were one of the classes that ruled the roost. Money wasnt a problem to Druids, who could sell ports to make cash.
If a Druid couldnt get a group they were well equipped to Solo.

Thats probably part of the problem I suspect that some people remember these times and want them back. I for one dont want a significant advantage over any other class, its a Nerf waiting to happen.

Someone said that Shamans have had skills added and Druids have not. Do you think taking this statement to SOE will help get you what you want when its actually untrue? Druids got Rez aa, which I find extremely useful. Dont you think SOE will know this and bring it up? Dont you also think then that a potentially good argument goes up in flames and SOE breath a sigh of relief as they dodge a bullet?

What you could have said was that Shamans have been given MORE skills since POP, LDON etc, and thwen list them, and yes bring in the fact that since Luclin Druids desirability in groups has been weakened by the ever increasing ability for other classes abilility to port?

There are other things you (through the class correspondent) can bring up with SOE, like the disparity between tank and caster/priests mitigation, the dps of mobs, summoning mobs etc but dont mention one side of things hoping SOE wont think of them. Also consider the effect of a skill given to the Druid class and its effect on another, because if you dont, by God they will.

Lastly I'd like to mention Stances. I think Stances could be a very useful addition, depending on how SOE handles the downsides of it and its reuse time. Again it wont solve all Druids problems, but again I am very surprised that so many Druids are against an idea that seems to epitomise versitility.

God, no wonder we don't get anything.

Group A) we want to be heal and cure our groups.

Group B) please don't give us heals, we don't like to heal, we like being gimp wizards.

Soe) Haha druids can't even make up their mind, lets ignore them per usual. Lets give ports to rogues and warriors.

Well, it's ironic, because our class has always been split in two. Soloers and groupers, nukers and dotters, damage vs healing, etc. It's no surprise we can't agree on anything. I personally heal fine with what I have, but yea some changes would be welcome for sure. I'm happy with my new DoTs, and i'm happy with the nuke changes. As per epic click. Leave it alone, i don't want it to be gimped.

Here's a question: Why are people bringing up the topic of ports again? Personally I am glad people got means of moving around now, it was irritating having to be anon or roleplay in every zone because of the port begging.


Stances
Are going to suck and suck hard. simply making them +% is useless.

Ok mr. wizard inc 3800 + 25% heal to you in 3.....2.... damn your dead, should have invited a shammy or cleric or paladin.

I swear, some druids need to learn to time heals. That example isn't any different from what we have already and stances aren't gonna turn our heals slower. Perhaps you need to explain your example again?


I do not think Druids are the finished article. I do think improvements need to be made. I think, however that complaining about things is not the way to get them done. If you put forward your argument with viable reasons calmly you look less of a whacko.


I agree with this statement to a certain extent. Complaining about everything won't solve anything, however, the complaining needs to be done when it is necesary. We're not gonna sit here and cross our arms and pray for the Devs to read our minds.

But yea, the complaining about EVERYTHING has to stop. I'm talking about the "our dot's got nerfed, our nukes got nerfed, our heals are more expensive manawise, our epic sucks", oh give me a break!

I think Scirocco has done well stating viable reasons to change stuff. What you're suggesting is nothing that hasn't been done. However if you refer to how druids are debating here, well that's another 2 cents.


Someone said Druids were unbalanced in PoP. Lets go back before that. Back in the Luclin Era and before, Druids were one of the classes that ruled the roost. Money wasnt a problem to Druids, who could sell ports to make cash.
If a Druid couldnt get a group they were well equipped to Solo.

Thats probably part of the problem I suspect that some people remember these times and want them back. I for one dont want a significant advantage over any other class, its a Nerf waiting to happen.

You mean at the end of the Luclin era... when we got Tunare's Renewal. If so, that was only for a short time. Eventually people found themselves in PoP grinding to lvl 65 and druid mana couldn't keep up.

Port money is a myth. You couldn't get enough back then to buy spells off vendors.

During Luclin, only a few camps were ok to solo and were usually camped. Cobalt Scar, Raptors in TD, Dorfs in BB, HGs, BW Giants were all camped, and it was hard to get a good solo spot.

So yea, i don't think we were exactly one of the classes that ruled the roost, and if we were... it wasn't for long anyway.


1. On the DPS side, we want burst DPS over mana efficiency. That can work well with a straightforward % increase in damage. Would you rather have +25% damage, or a reduction of mana cost by 25%? No question which one I'd choose.

I would choose DPS (+25% damage), no question about it.

The main issue here is what spells will the increase apply to? My thought is that it ought to apply at least to all of our immediate damage spells: DDs, AoEs, PBAE, rain spells, stuns. I'd also like it to extend to our DoTs, especially if we get dinged for 50% on our healing. (Of course, there are good reasons to not include DoTs, since that way they may escape the 50% ding for healing stance. Only those spells that are affected beneficially should suffer the negative hit. With unaffected DoTs, even healing druids may have their DoTs for damage.)

I was under the impression that DoTs were changed precisely because our stance would affect them? If not was what the sudden change for? It is a welcome change in my opinion but yea...

God, no wonder we don't get anything.

Group A) we want to be heal and cure our groups.

Group B) please don't give us heals, we don't like to heal, we like being gimp wizards.


Spoken like a healing druid with blinders. Or perhaps you'd get the point if I rephrased your first description as:

Group A) please don't give us nukes, we don't like to nuke, we like being gimp clerics


The reason we don't get anything? Druids who want to sacrifice one side for the other.

Dear druids ...
I am not an uber druid .. never been. Always played in small family guilds, soloed a lot (love charm/fear!! hate summon!!) and got to 70 a few months ago. In 7 months hunting i STILL miss many 70 spells :(. I do lotsa pickup groups, but only for 1 reason: I AM INVITING the people in group. Lotsa work, but its the only way to have a group.
After a while someone might even remember you and call you in their group.

I like the stances idea .. reflects our duality .. but it's not enough to make us desideable in groups... these are the rules i apply when forming a group .. and i think most do:

if a group wants dps it gets a necro (rez! fd! mind wrack!) or a rogue (sec tank! huge dps! never oom!) or mage (nice sec tank pet! ds! coth! rods! focus/pet items!) or rng (umm , ok puller too).. or umm a wiz (bah .. yes big nukes) .. or dru (no other lfg, sorry group.. well at least has oak/regen/ds and some utility).

if a group wants a healer it gets a cleric (best rez! conv! best heal! spell haste! symbol! (some) sec tank! nukes!) or a shammie (slows! dots! buffs! heals!) .. or dru (no other lfg, want to wait for a cleric?)

So druids need a role! but how can we get a role when everything is so specialized at 70? How to get a role without becoming a bot-like toon doing the same thing over over over endlessy (DRUIDS DONT LIKE THAT!!) ?? Here a proposal:

I would like druid to be the BEST emergency managers .. more then just instant evac. Would that appeal to groups? i think yes... not sure it would be enough but would go in the right direction imho

Personally I think druid should be able to cover ANY group critical role in group for a few ticks, until emergency has passed.

- MA down? ok druid call aggro with vines/(quick?)aoe nuke/tank with oaken guard .. does it work? oaken guard too short i guess. would need it to last 20 ticks. How to call aggro from 2-3 mobs that are chewing the group and resist for some seconds?
- MH down? fast heal/SOTW can do something, but not enough in emergency. SOTW should be a HUGE group Hot
- CC down? bah root is crap for crowd control nowadays, i used to have lotsa fun with it. Lost a ghetto role here. Do something.

Make us be protagonist for a few critical seconds when things are ugly .. and groups will call us back. Give us a few more dps and /or hps and groups will still follow the above rules... because there is better ..

porter, dps, snarer .. all roles which are not critical any more .. they just marginally useful or many classes can do it.

What do you think?

Dorda, 70 dru on antonius bayle

^^ Agree with Sciro.

My vote would be on the DPS side. Yes, we lack tools on the healing side, but let us focus and get back to being a high caster damage output class. And also agree, forget mana when it comes to nukes - fast hitting high damage is the way to go, mana cost be damned.

Spot healing is fine, but healing via 2 hot buttons all the time gets super old.

Debuff/DoT/Nuke > Healing imo

Group A) please don't give us nukes, we don't like to nuke, we like being gimp clerics.

LOL I've been making fun of people for being 1/2 assed clerics who cast oak instead of bali for awhile now ><

EDIT: I want better heals so I can spend more time nuking!

God, no wonder we don't get anything.

Group A) we want to be heal and cure our groups.

Group B) please don't give us heals, we don't like to heal, we like being gimp wizards.


there is group c) please give us the tools to play the flexible nature of the druid.

there are the druids that like doing both. offensively, i am fairly happy. my best crit to date is 6893 and i enjoy that side. i could wish for slightly bigger nukes, specifically something that lands for around 2600-2800 unmodified but costs insane mana but eh... i'll live without it.

there are times i also like to heal. they don't happen often. and after happening i go a long stretch before wanting to again. it's the stress. healing RSS with the druid toolkit is possible, but way stressful. did it for a couple hours the other night. what i am saying is while i can live without uber dps and enjoy it night after night, i can't say the same on the healing side. gimme a fast heal or a hot, please.

in terms of the CH line, i understand SOE wanting to move away from it. i call bs and still say they should fix ours. to do away with CH completely they will have to fix many things, starting with mana regen. we can't regen mana fast enough using purely fast heals to keep the game "fun". the day-to-day grind still requires CH. even a cleric is going to go OOM often chaining pious light/elixir in a group. either lower our mana or increase the size. doing away with CH for raids and such... i can see that.

dorda, i like your idea. kinda WoW-ish =)
gimme a spell that doubles my ac, atk, and gives me the mitigation ability of a pally/sk, lasts for 30-45 seconds and lemme fill in when the tank goes down.
gimme another that turns me into a whirling dervish with melee dps for 15-30 seconds like a rogue.
bonus points if you give me bear/cat illusion while these spells are active!

extra bonus pts: gimme mage water to drink, please!

i still say stances are ****e. we should be balanced all the time. mana cost is the balance of the druid. nuke too much and you can't pop off the back-up heal. heal with the big heals too much and you don't get to nuke. play inefficiently and you incur more down-time.

modify ch so it does 6k for 500 mana (and let it crit, i paid the same AA as the cleric!). a 1.75s, 1500 heal for 750 mana. a hot that does 500/tick for 5 ticks for 400 mana. and by all that is holy under the light of tunare gimme a group pureblood. now call me balanced. if you still need to do stances so you can be as cool as blizzard i at least now have some tools. and yeah, i'll prolly still be in nuke stance.

The reason we don't get anything? Druids who want to sacrifice one side for the other.


Another point along these lines is the "WE" thing.
Let's quit fooling ourselves. "WE" seems to have little to do with this. "ME" however is a different story.

"WE" need more heals. "WE" don't care if "YOU" want them. "WE" want them for you.
"WE" need more DPS. We don't care if "YOU" want them.

Go back and look at all the posts in this string. How many people are dead set on changing my epics effect from a nuke increaser that I'm happy with to a group heal clicky(or any other effect than the one I'm happy with ) that I have not asked for?

How many people insist that I must have the heal over time spell I have not asked for?

The problem here is each one of us ( me included ) wants changes to the druid class based on thier own personal wants and needs.

I don't know the answer other than to ask Scirocco to request what the majority wants and the rest of us will have to deal with that decision.

Personally, I do not feel that much out of balance and other than needing a better PR/DR cure and maybe some better abilites to actually land my nukes without as many rersists, I don't desire that many changes.

Please, before you flame me for being a fairly end game druid keep in mind that I am not judging my condition based on grouping Creator missions with elemental geared groups. I group with and often have to heal 15k tanks and in as challenging of places as we can find.

How many people are dead set on changing my epics effect from a nuke increaser that I'm happy with to a group heal clicky(or any other effect than the one I'm happy with ) that I have not asked for?


None. All I've seen are suggestions to ADD a group heal (or similar effect) to the epic.

The problem here is each one of us ( me included ) wants changes to the druid class based on thier own personal wants and needs.

The REAL problem is that our own wants and needs are subject to change on the whim of devs who design the game's content. We saw a fairly substantial increase in Mob attack power in PoP ... if it hadn't been for Tunare's Renewal, many druids would have had a difficult time finding a place in groups.

Content has a strong influence on what our needs are, and how important each need is perceived.

For example: If a new expansion fails to provide adequate soloable content, and grouping is required just to play and progress, emphasis shifts to the tools that make us desirable to groups. Since the Druid has moved behind several classes in the DPS heirarchy, healing has consistently been our main appeal to prospective groups, so our 'needs' would naturally tend to focus more on heal-related abilities.

If mobs in an expansion are especially resistant to fire and cold nukes, a large part of our flexibility in healing/nuking is lost -- our appeal to groups amounts to how desperate they are for a healer. Another case where our 'needs' in healing tend to grab more attention than they otherwise might.

If an expansion is mostly indoors, groups who might have considered inviting us for pulling will find a class whose lulls aren't limited to outdoor zones...

If many of the mobs in an expansion are highly magic resistant, our chromatic snare might be considered more useful, but that high magic resistance also means our ability to contribute in crowd control is limited to kiting because roots won't be reliable.

On the flip side.....

If an expansion has scatterings of lowbie (animal) mobs that could serve as DC pets in higher level zones, druid's "mana free" DPS is improved to the point where we are somewhat competitive (at least with wiz/mag/nec) for a DPS spot.

If mobs in an expansion have average resistance to magic, our snares and quick root and/or 4-minute root allow us to contribute nicely to crowd control -- a druid with pretty good reactive instincts will do almost as well as a chanter in a pinch.

If an expansion is mostly outdoors and there are some relatively flat areas with non-summoning mobs and room to move around, the druid becomes an excellent addition to a kite group... in addition to being able to solo productively, which itself takes some of the pressure off of 'needing' to find groups for basic exp progression.

Right now, in today's high level content, the druid is simply not very competitive for DPS and several other classes are plainly a better choice for that role in almost every situation. And there are extremely few options for soloing that the average druid can use when they're overlooked by groups who have a spot open.

And right now, there is a demand for cleric-quality healing because mobs in popular high tier zones hit insanely hard... but considering that the cleric is 1/16th of all classes, there aren't enough to meet a 1:6 (one in every group) demand.

And right now, even SOE has acknowledged that the game needs more capable main healers, and their goal is to make it possible for all three priests to fill the role.

So right now, yes you're going to find more emphasis on what the druid needs for healing.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not crazy about playing main healer on a regular basis, but if that's the primary role SOE sees for this class, I want enough variety in our healing toolkit to do the job without having to feel that my gear is allowing me to overcome shortcomings of the class in an expected role.

Let me illustrate the point:

I realize that my gear/AAs allow me to go back and fill an 'unintended' role like tanking in older expansions, even mobs that might still be challenging for bazaar geared tank classes. But I do not want to ever think that my gear is the only thing allowing me to perform my class's 'intended' role -- in any content.

~Firemynd

I agree with Dorda that it would be nice if we could have our own niche rather than being 2nd (or 5th) best at something. We are the 2nd best pure healer in the game, but with other utilities considered, we are 3rd (shaman slow/buffs).

Same deal with DPS, we aren't useless but there's no reason to choose us over another class because they all have secondary things they can bring to the table. Dorda's post covered most of them. Sure, I might be able to pull well outdoors, or heal adequately in some content, or dps for a brief period before going oom and not bein able to utilize my versitility. Whereas a cleric could have 8 thumbs and 14 brain cells and they'll get group invites left and right, I could work my butt off to become my druid and do everything exactly right and still not get asked because on LFG I just show up as 66 DRU.

We need something that will hit people when they see a DRU lfg. Porting, snare, run speed, and other old druid trix don't do that anymore. Make us the kings and queens of short-term Emergency situations (chanters deserve to be the ones u can rely upon to do cc on a continual and consistent basis...but they do also have the best mind buffs and can slow) and we'll have that allure.

Not saying this is the only solution, but something along those lines to make us THE BEST at something (even if its just the best at versatility...make that mean something, as in emergency situations where our versatility doesnt currently mean nearly as much as it does in the bigger picture). An extremely fast heal, even for low amounts of hp, would do this. Insane HoT on SOTG, or a new AA that performed this task, would do this. Dorda's idea about being able to instantly draw aggro and keep things tanked with a longer duration longer recast time Oaken guard would do this. That's true versatility in situations where it matters most, and if we made certain that the recast/reuse timers on these things were sufficiently high, it wouldn't unbalance the game. I'm sure you can find holes in some of these specifics, some places we would be stepping on the toes of other classes, but I encourage that...the more ideas we disqualify the closer we'll be to the correct solution. The general premise is the important part.

Also, it seems like if there are supposed to be 3 main healer classes, they should each be the best at some type of heal. Clerics the masters of the Gigantic complete heal, shamans the masters of the heal over time, druids the masters of the quick heal? The group heal? What's the deal! Currently clerics are the masters of pretty much everything, and thats what's outta whack. If you need to give them a new utility ability in order to compensate for the loss of healing superiority, fine, do it! Give them insane nukes against the undead, give them group rez, whatever u gotta do, make druids the best at something!

-Noir

give them invisibility and shut them up.

give them invisibility and shut them up.

Pfft that's not gonna work :mad2:

As soon as we get invis we go to number 2 on our super sekret cleric class list :wiggle:

Which I think at the moment is AA summon beer (damm dorfs) :ange:

Ok this is my thought for the epic effect.

Similiar to the shammy epic effect, but instead of +50% melee damage increase, we get +25 spell damage increase for group.


So you click epic, its a group heal (same as shammy epic) and while everyone is under the effect of the epic, their spell damage increases 25%. Provides both, is on par with other epics and not entirely overpowering. And no maxhits on it either.

Spoken like a healing druid with blinders. Or perhaps you'd get the point if I rephrased your first description as:

Group A) please don't give us nukes, we don't like to nuke, we like being gimp clerics


The reason we don't get anything? Druids who want to sacrifice one side for the other.


Not true at all, i want to be versatile, but not gimped or over powered.

Nuke wise I am happy with the damage/mana efficiency, and we are close dps to what i feel is right. If they fixed the resists on the nukes or gave us what i was asking for, a cr/fr tash spell, dps wise I would be happy. ALso wish they would un-nerf the dots, my dps has dropped off considerly since that nerf. Had to add in a fire dot or 2 to compensate and get a lot of resists on those as well.

Healing side is where i think we have been bent over and given the shaft. We lost 2nd place for heals and the 1 heal we have is slow. In our typical rs group, the kill rate is only slightly slower with 2 druids instead of 1 cleric. But with 1 druid, the kill rate is about half of what it would be if a cleric was there. Sure i can heal a 12k/1800 ac tank but with med breaks the kill rate is considerby lower.

I love the idea of being able to heal when needed and dps as needed, of being in a flex role that is an asset to the group. If we are good on healing, do a decent dps, if we short on healing being able to take over, or keeping a group alive in a raid.


PS anyone else pissed off at our don spell? I mean just about every class got somethign new and we get a spell that should have been fixed a while ago.

I swear, some druids need to learn to time heals. That example isn't any different from what we have already and stances aren't gonna turn our heals slower. Perhaps you need to explain your example again?

Sure i can time heal on a pop mob and oow/don mobs on a tank that aint the issue. Your telling me if a caster suddenly pulls aggro in rs, you can time it so they live.. Most caster when they pull aggro in rs on a unslowed mob, wont even last 3 seconds.

We are the 2nd best pure healer in the game, but with other utilities considered, we are 3rd (shaman slow/buffs).

Incorrect, we are the 3rd best pure healer in the game. Let me know if you need the numbers ;)

Incorrect, we are the 3rd best pure healer in the game. Let me know if you need the numbers ;)

Okay I'll take the numbers :) I'm interested to see where your coming from on this. :physics:

just an observation...

please people stop thinking about the numbers .. thats just details.
we need to choose a strategy: how do we envision our future as druids?
how do we want to keep/restore hunting in the 4 druid sistuations?
(i.e. solo, duo, group, raid?)

1) I want quadding back!! I want charm back!! Only root rot in limited situations is left viable!!! Flexible solo = FUN while lfg!!
2) I want something to help a tank do his quests duoing!
3) I want to be dps or healer , but king of emergency
4) same as 3

Just my ideas .. but talking about numbers and 2nd or 3rd is boring and pointless imho..
numbers can come later, after deciding what we want to do.

It does not matter how "we" envision our class. It matters what SOE thinks we are and although we've been asking....

"What does SOE feel the role of the Druid Class is in 2005?"

SOE has been silent.

Last year when we asked they told us to wait until they re-evaluated the classes. Now that this is done they know what they want each class to be (even if the classes are not there yet) but they fail to tell us.

So until SOE opens up and actually talks to us we'll continue to wander aimlessly coming up with ideas all over the board in regard to what "we" want the class to be instead of what "we" want inside the framwork of what SOE envisions the class to be.

-Cass

I know that Cass, thanks. And i think you are mostly right.

But there are 2 issues:
1) SOE has NO CLUE about how druids should play and which role they should have
2) Druids dont agree on an improving/balancing strategy (this is what an outside reader comes off reading this forum)

I know the druid request list has been utterly ignored and disregarded. Lost a battle, lets keep fighting.

Get ideas out, mybe some clueless underpayed deadline stressed software developer might get some reward out of that and start listening to us :) Agree on something and develop a new wish list and strongly support it. That should be our goal.

Kite the developer .. thats the key :) .. quadding might be better

Ok this is my thought for the epic effect.

Similiar to the shammy epic effect, but instead of +50% melee damage increase, we get +25 spell damage increase for group.


So you click epic, its a group heal (same as shammy epic) and while everyone is under the effect of the epic, their spell damage increases 25%. Provides both, is on par with other epics and not entirely overpowering. And no maxhits on it either.

No thanks. I like the idea but we lose it affecting a whole raid and limits itself to one group.

I dont understand why people are so hell bent on getting a heal on their epics. Will a group HoT be a deciding factor on who lives and who dies in your group?

So until SOE opens up and actually talks to us we'll continue to wander aimlessly coming up with ideas all over the board in regard to what "we" want the class to be instead of what "we" want inside the framwork of what SOE envisions the class to be.

What if "we" are fine with everything? Like i've said on other posts, sure there are small improvements that can be made like a group heal and/or removing the ch cap. That's it. You make it seem like you wanna change the class completely.

I know the druid request list has been utterly ignored and disregarded. Lost a battle, lets keep fighting.

No it hasn't. There are billions of factors they need to consider: other classes, balancing, overall usefulness. Those 3 are the most important. It hasn't been ignored, they know about it, they read it, and they tell scirocco what they are considering, what is to remain unchanged, etc.


Incorrect, we are the 3rd best pure healer in the game. Let me know if you need the numbers

LOL ok... I need those numbers too.

Sure i can time heal on a pop mob and oow/don mobs on a tank that aint the issue. Your telling me if a caster suddenly pulls aggro in rs, you can time it so they live.. Most caster when they pull aggro in rs on a unslowed mob, wont even last 3 seconds.

I'm sorry but it's their fault if the pull agro, and it's their fault if they can't handle it after. There are ways for classes to lower their own agro, not including SCS3 and epic 1.5+.

And that still doesn't explain what it has to do with the stances. Like i said, it's not like the stances will make our heals slower. So yea, perhaps you meant that we need a faster heal? :p

We are the 2nd best pure healer in the game, but with other utilities considered, we are 3rd (shaman slow/buffs).

I totally agree with this statement, emphasys on WITH OTHER UTILITIES CONSIDERED.

please people stop thinking about the numbers .. thats just details.
we need to choose a strategy: how do we envision our future as druids?
how do we want to keep/restore hunting in the 4 druid sistuations?
(i.e. solo, duo, group, raid?)

1) I want quadding back!! I want charm back!! Only root rot in limited situations is left viable!!! Flexible solo = FUN while lfg!!
2) I want something to help a tank do his quests duoing!
3) I want to be dps or healer , but king of emergency
4) same as 3

1) Numbers are what change things.
2) In the quest for balancing other classes, some classes need to sacrifice abilities. I can only imagine why tactics such as quadding and charm have been nerfed to hell and back, because other classes would consider our class overpowered and "unbalanced". That's cleric's argument about we shouldn't be given anything at all, and they need to be given solo powers.

And yes, it does matter what other classes think... because SoE is also reading their own input. Nobody's gonna consider something balanced if EVERYONE is bitching about it.

just an observation...

please people stop thinking about the numbers .. thats just details.
we need to choose a strategy: how do we envision our future as druids?
how do we want to keep/restore hunting in the 4 druid sistuations?
(i.e. solo, duo, group, raid?)

1) I want quadding back!! I want charm back!! Only root rot in limited situations is left viable!!! Flexible solo = FUN while lfg!!
2) I want something to help a tank do his quests duoing!
3) I want to be dps or healer , but king of emergency
4) same as 3

1: You can still quad, Last I checked Karana's Rage still landed on mobs. Addition of DoN Snare now makes it so quading more mr mobs is not a death warrent.

Charm: They added Several animals in Omens of War and Dragon's of Norrath. They gave us a new charm, its called Nature's Beckon. Last rune turn-in at 70. I have Charmed mobs in GoD, Omens and DoN without issue.

Summary: Point invalid becusae they still exist.

2: Help a tank duo quests:

I agree, something like:

Teleportion
Lion's Strength
DPS - Nukes (Fire, Cold, Magic)
DPS - DoTs (Magic, Fire)
Snares
Damage Shield
Regen
Spirit of the Wood/Grove
Skin of X
ATK / AC debuffs (Ro's/Sun/Glacier)
Heals - NT, NI, KR, SI, CT
Melee Migration - Hungry Vines
Pets (Charm, Pet Haste)
Evac (Exodus, Succor, Succor of X)
Invis (Any Camo Spell Here)
Lev and EB (Either version)
Speed Increases (SoW, Shrew, Eagle)
Chests and Boxes (Sense, Disarm, Pick)
Lull (Harmony)
Resist Buffs (Seasons, Resist of X)

Oh thats right, we DO all that already. So what, pray tell, are you looking for?

3/4: Pretty sure we can do either, as well as - Evac, Exodus and the ability to fill nearly any role in a pinch.

-Fenier

/agree nimchip
why worry about the caster who overaggros? s/he's obviously a dumbass who needs to go back to nuke 101 and pay attention to how much they can blast before aggro-ing.

epic: sure it'd be nice to get something tacked onto it from the healing PoV, but i am growing to like the effect.

my favorite use of the epic? play "kill the wizard/mage". watch the int caster(s) to see when they normally start nuking. stealth click epic without announcing to raid/party. watch em overaggro and go splat! make sure you call "EPIC KILL" in party or raid when this happens; this ensures everyone recognizes the sheer, unadulterated power i hold in my twig. i also like to follow this up with a 0% druid rez and laugh when they loot all.

when/if i get 2.0 i will be able to do this TWICE as often since the cooldown will be faster.

I know that Cass, thanks. And i think you are mostly right.

But there are 2 issues:
1) SOE has NO CLUE about how druids should play and which role they should have
2) Druids dont agree on an improving/balancing strategy (this is what an outside reader comes off reading this forum)

I know the druid request list has been utterly ignored and disregarded. Lost a battle, lets keep fighting.

Get ideas out, mybe some clueless underpayed deadline stressed software developer might get some reward out of that and start listening to us :) Agree on something and develop a new wish list and strongly support it. That should be our goal.

Kite the developer .. thats the key :) .. quadding might be better

Stances are the only way, IMHO, for them to allow the Druid Class to continue this dual role without being overpowered which is why I was so excited when SOE proposed it forever ago.

They asked us for assitance in "tweaking" the stance idea and instead a ton of people have come and posted how stances suck yadda yadda.

If we need to do anything we need to accept that stances are what is going to happen to us and then try and tweak what we need with stances in mind.

I have placed WoW and stances do work and they work well. Just because another game came up with the idea does not make the idea bad. It seems that some people are against stances due to WoW having them. Maybe just maybe "druids" as a class, no matter the game, are a dual role class.

So in closing.... we need to fix stances and not try and scrap them. Maybe an official poll with some stance ideas could be put up for a vote after which we "officially" present them to SOE and then pound on them to put them in this century :)

-Cass

stances for druids in WoW are much different, as are WoW general game mechanics.
a druid in WoW switching stances lets a druid be a caster(normal), tank (bear) or a melee dps/rogue (cat).
you do not get hit on the effectiveness of your spells per se... when not in caster form you just can not cast them.
there is also no 5 min limit/cooldown. it's all about mana available.

this does not really compare to +25%/-50%.

a druid in WoW also has the toolset to heal. i have and can heal a 10 man strat instance with my 58 druid.

i have no issue with sony taking a great idea from blizzard. i do have a problem with their implementation and the effects of it. my primary concerns with sony's stances?

1) the code base will be a nightmare for months to come.
2) without more healing options, a straight up +25% bigger heal ain't doing much
3) when druids realize 1) and 2), sony and other players are going to respond that druids have got a LOT of love and attention from sony and they should STFU, leaving us with problems.

i agree, generally speaking, that there are not many problems technically with a druid. if i want to nuke, i can. if i want to heal, i can. if i want to solo, i can. i can do all fairly well, but not as well as the specialists. a cleric can outheal me. a mage/wizard can out nuke me. a necro can certainly out solo me. and i am mostly ok with that.

what i am not ok with is that this leaves me with very few options in getting a group and soloing just really isn't worth the effort anymore. yes, i can go to fire. i am sick of that suggestion. it doesn't help when every other solo class can also go to tables. maybe if i log in at 2 am i might get the camp.

give us the ability to make a positive difference in a group. if it is a more complete heal toolkit, fine, i'll take it. i'd rather something more creative, but hey, that will work. and i'll prolly get that before getting meaningful dps. as much as i like dorda's ideas, i doubt they will happen. truth to tell, i think the general eq playerbase would prolly rather have us be competitive with clerics anyway to open up more options when choosing on the LFG screen.

/agree nimchip
why worry about the caster who overaggros? s/he's obviously a dumbass who needs to go back to nuke 101 and pay attention to how much they can blast before aggro-ing.

epic: sure it'd be nice to get something tacked onto it from the healing PoV, but i am growing to like the effect.

my favorite use of the epic? play "kill the wizard/mage". watch the int caster(s) to see when they normally start nuking. stealth click epic without announcing to raid/party. watch em overaggro and go splat! make sure you call "EPIC KILL" in party or raid when this happens; this ensures everyone recognizes the sheer, unadulterated power i hold in my twig. i also like to follow this up with a 0% druid rez and laugh when they loot all.

when/if i get 2.0 i will be able to do this TWICE as often since the cooldown will be faster.

Hmmm, I was under the impression the it wasn't how big the nuke is, but how often you nuke, that draws agro.

I know I read that long ago somewhere. Is that not true or has it been changed?

You can still quad, Last I checked Karana's Rage still landed on mobs. Addition of DoN Snare now makes it so quading more mr mobs is not a death warrent.

If mobs are particularly magic resistant, I'm generally going to steer away from trying to quad them with Karana's Rage.... a magic-based quad spell.

Sometimes people spend so much brain power trying to convince themselves that druids are perfectly fine, they don't have enough left for autonomic functions like breathing, and soon begin babbling in an oxygen-deprived state.

~Firemynd

Less effective yes, useless? No.

I do not perticularly see where druids should get help in killing 4+ mobs at once. It is still possiable. Use Serpent Vines to start and you are assured 3 minutes+ of ensnare attempts. This may make Karana's Rage drastically less effective to quading that mob type, but does not make it impossiable.

-Fenier

Yeah, and we could also waste 20 minutes trying to land GB so we can use cold nukes against a cold-resistant mob, and maybe if we're lucky, land a few partial nukes.

Stop grasping.

~Firemynd

Less effective yes, useless? No.

I do not perticularly see where druids should get help in killing 4+ mobs at once. It is still possiable. Use Serpent Vines to start and you are assured 3 minutes+ of ensnare attempts. This may make Karana's Rage drastically less effective to quading that mob type, but does not make it impossiable.

-Fenier

Not sure what you are saying here. That druids should not get more help in the quading? Yes its possible? Serpent vines only helps in the initial snareing of mobs. A druid cant Quad in the new worlds OoW DoN (that I've seen). I've tried a few places and it may work like two out of 7 times. Pathing sucks and changes too often.

But like in PoFire - use Serpent Vines to get 1st mob, then use 14 min snare after - repeat till you have 4 mobs. Then all 4 have about 10-12 min left on the 14 min snare. So then start your rain spell or KR and any free DoT. Yes PoFire is the only good place for this Quad now after level 65. But use the rain spell and you will get no resists and what ever crits you have spent AA on.

Its just as boring as a single snare/DD (which going solo is still better AA/Exp than most Druids can get) but at leat it's faster.

Quading is still possiable.

If your post of saying fire is stil the only real place to quad is correct. Then yoru adding one new Magic Based Targeted AE spell for One single zone for one single purpose.

Personally, I think thats pointless. I dislike Quadding. I can do it, I do not like to, and I would rather root/rot in a dungeon somewhere. Quading requires a good deal of room, being outdoors, and the mobs not being so magically resistant KR is reduced to double digits.

That said, I know several people who Quad fire, NC and a few others places, and they are perfectly content with it. Pathing in newer zones makes it more difficult. Fact is tho, killing 4 mobs at once should *not* be easy. So really, in terms of it needing to be more effective or easy, I disagree.

When your asking for Quadding to once again become effective you require several things:

1: Low MR Mobs, who's pathing allows them to follow in a small group
2: A Spell which cuases reasonable damage to those mobs, Given past spell lines, this will be a targeted AE, which is outdoors.
3: Said Mobs to not summon, and perferably not cast.
4: A zone setup which allows for kitting

Asking for better Quadding is not a minor change, you need to desgin a zone which has several or all of those factors. Quite Personally, I do not see them making that kind of zone again if they can help it, esp just to suit Druids and Wizards.

That said, tho I do not favor it, I am personally fine with our current Quadding status, and think the devs should focus on differant aspects of the class.

-Fenier

Charm: They added Several animals in Omens of War and Dragon's of Norrath. They gave us a new charm, its called Nature's Beckon. Last rune turn-in at 70. I have Charmed mobs in GoD, Omens and DoN without issue.


No you haven't.

The only thing in GoD charmable with it is Tipt/Vxed lvl 64 Hynids, Cragbeasts, and Stonemites (summon). The **ONLY** mob in OoW charmable by it are the summoning, hit for **** when charmed, SoE speed Chimera's in The Toilet of Everquest (WoS), if you have this spell you aren't in here getting exp. And there are no mobs in any instanced DoN zones charmable by it either unless you are groupped with enough sub 70 people to actually lower the level of the mobs.

As for quadding, if you are quadding with the DoN snare, you're retarded to begin with. There are no places to quad outside of PoP, and the only two places to do so are in HoH and Fire.

Asking for better Quadding is not a minor change, you need to desgin a zone which has several or all of those factors. Quite Personally, I do not see them making that kind of zone again if they can help it, esp just to suit Druids and Wizards.

I never asked for better quadding, never asked for it to be easier, and never specifically asked for content designed for it.

But seems you're trying to make a case against seeking improvements for druids, and I have a problem with that. For the past four expansions druids play "catch-up" from the time of each release, hoping to get enough of our new spells and gear upgrades to function at base effectiveness that we're viable in groups. And only those of us in high end raiding guilds have a remote chance of actually being wanted in groups doing popular content by the time another expansion hits the shelf.

We need to start looking ahead, anticipating new upcoming content for what our class needs to be viable in that expansion, instead of the one about to become old news. We need to be determining how much of our capability is due to raid-quality gear which is available to a small minority, and how much is really due to the tools our class has in the form of spells/AAs, which are more accessible to the majority.

~Firemynd

Good one Firemynd . i totally agree.

In practice, i would like to see here polls, lotsa polls. When any idea comes up, improving epic, group or AOE fast heal/hot (better then group heal imho :), giving pet to druid (how much i would like a rooted tree pet with lotsa hp and no dps which summons!!!), whatever. Make a poll for everything, then get best 30 ideas and let druids vote for the 10 most wanted. Make sure most of surviving droods vote. So we know what we think. web site+polls = direct democracy :)

.

That's why I like the idea of stances. It has the potential to allow all the Tunare-lovin' healing druids out there to boost their healing abilities, while allowing me to turn my firepower up a notch (I'll hit my nuke stance on day one, and I won't ever turn on the healing stance unless a true emergency arises).
I won't go tell you that you should just make a Wizard but....:)

I love when in a group, or on a raid, being able to, while fighting the same mob (or group of mobs) to be able to throw nukes, heal, snare, etc.

To me, that is what a druid is. You love to nuke? Great. So do I. But if the mob suddenly turns on the cleric and beats on him, the druid should be able to step in and heal to save the day. So the cleric uses his DA or dies and you have to take over healing the main tank for a few. But, oh, no, you have nuke stance on so now you can't heal well enough and tank dies.

Too bad. LOADING, Please wait...

Again, being locked into a stance is a violation of what druids are. We are do it all. Flexibility.

I have the most fun when I'm free to do whatever I want to. Nuke. Nuke. I see someone getting pounded on, Heal, Heal. Ok, back to Nuke. Nuke. Enchanter in trouble, Heal.

Again, you will say just stay in Normal stance. Sure, until I find that my heals and nukes are useless because they are designed around being used in the "proper" stance.

In regards to epic:

Zajeer comfirmed that they are going to increase the casting range. This will go live next patch.

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=druidbalance&message.id=5334

In regards to quading:

I've tried to quad in RCoD and MPG before, but the quad will only stay together as a quad for maybe a nuke or 2 than break up due to the crappy pathing - this is extremely annoying.

In DON i've never tried to quad, but seeing how much the **** warps when i solo (in the ascent) thats asking for a death wish. other than the ascent, all the zones have lower level mobs, and the nest is indoors. Besides pathing, some DON zones (ie ascent) has excessive "cannot see targets" messeges.

In regards to charming:

There are no practical uses for charming in later expansions. WOS charms have their max hit gimped out so its more trouble than its worth.

I won't go tell you that you should just make a Wizard but....

I considered a wizard at the start. But a wizard didn't have the combination of run speed and healing to go with the gates and the nuking. Still doesn't. I wanted a storm wizard with a bit of healing, and the only class that does that is the druid. A lot of druids join me in that viewpoint.

Of course, a lot of druids approach druids from the healing side first, as well. They see themselves as nature priests/clerics with some nuking ability.

The trick is trying to keep both sides satisfied with a balanced class, while still making some changes to the class so that both sides are better equipped to handle a healing or a DPS role (their choice). I get the impression here from various comments that folks want 25% to healing, 25% to nuking, or (gods forbid) 25% to both, without stances.

It ain't gonna happen, people. Especially significant improvements to both healing and nuking. And 25% to either is unacceptable, because then it leaves the other side out in the cold (I'd personally be happy with a 25% boost to nuke damage, and leave healing alone, but I see the problem with that for all the healing druids).

So, on the one hand, we can basically limp along with what we have now, perhaps with some improvements in the druid healing toolkit (perhaps some form of heal haste AA to speed up the heals). No 25% increase to heals, no 25% increase to nukes. Anyone want this option? Because that's what we're most likely to get if stances don't go it. Realistically.

On the other hand, with stances you get the same basic druid as above, plus the option to increase 25% in heals or nukes, at your option, while sacrificing some significant percentage (50% in the initial proposal) of the other. Anyone rather have this option?

I don't see any realistic alternative options. Not with this Dev Team. Not with EQ being as old as it is. Not for the foreseeable future.


I love when in a group, or on a raid, being able to, while fighting the same mob (or group of mobs) to be able to throw nukes, heal, snare, etc.

With stances, you can continue to do that in all 3 stances. If you want to keep the same flexibility you have now, stay with the normal stance. Even when I'm in the nuking stance, I still can cast heals (at 50% of normal). But that's because I don't plan on being a "main healer" in groups or on raids. DPS is fun. Healing is not. (For me.)



To me, that is what a druid is. You love to nuke? Great. So do I. But if the mob suddenly turns on the cleric and beats on him, the druid should be able to step in and heal to save the day. So the cleric uses his DA or dies and you have to take over healing the main tank for a few. But, oh, no, you have nuke stance on so now you can't heal well enough and tank dies.

Too bad. LOADING, Please wait...

Um...from this I gather you don't understand how stances work. Assuming it has been at least 5 minutes since I turned on my nuke stance (it most likely will have been 5 days!), if the cleric gets beat on in the above scenario and I need to heal, I immediately hit my heal stance and start healing at 125%. I'm not locked into the nuke stance.

In fact, with stances, there's less likelihood of a LOADING result than with the druid as is. Or as it will be without stances.


Again, being locked into a stance is a violation of what druids are. We are do it all. Flexibility.

See the above. You aren't "locked" into the stance past the first five minutes after selecting. I wouldn't be locked into the nuking stance, and I would only be stuck in the healing stance for 5 minutes after the emergency arose (and I would be able to change again before we got the cleric ressed and buffed, most likely). If the group dynamic is such that the above scenario happens more than once every 15 minutes or so, I'm going to find a new group.


I have the most fun when I'm free to do whatever I want to. Nuke. Nuke. I see someone getting pounded on, Heal, Heal. Ok, back to Nuke. Nuke. Enchanter in trouble, Heal.

Normal stance.



Again, you will say just stay in Normal stance. Sure, until I find that my heals and nukes are useless because they are designed around being used in the "proper" stance.

I have seen nothing to indicate that the heals and nukes we have now are being designed around stances. All ice nukes became efficiency nukes, and the fire nukes became the high damage nukes. Our fire nuke damage went up. Our heals went up. I would have expected them to go down if what you fear was true.

If you are implying that our fire nuke damage and heals would have gone up even more without the prospect of stances down the road, then you are smoking some serious stuff. Or have a unrealistic expectation of what SOE will do for the druid class.


The bottom line is this: given the choice of the status quo, or having an option every five minutes to configure myself for the status quo or a 25% increase in nuking or healing, I'm choosing the latter. Can anyone tell me why they would choose the former (other than the unfounded fear that SOE will decrease our nukes and heals by some percentage)?

I have the most fun when I'm free to do whatever I want to. Nuke. Nuke. I see someone getting pounded on, Heal, Heal. Ok, back to Nuke. Nuke. Enchanter in trouble, Heal.

Again, you will say just stay in Normal stance. Sure, until I find that my heals and nukes are useless because they are designed around being used in the "proper" stance.It is the flexibility of the druid I love the most. When I'm happiest is when I'm able to contribute damage along with being main healer. If all I can do in a group is heal because of the need to conserve mana for healing, then I'm not really all that happy. If all I'm allowed to do is nuke, with no need to heal, I'm also not happy. I really do not want to be locked into being a one trick pony, whether that one trick is healing or it is nuking.

There really is no solution that will work for all of us. Those who only nuke will love the offensive stance. Those who want to just heal will love the defensive stance. Those of us who both heal and contribute damage will be left as we are ... if we're lucky.


My only hope ;) is that stances will not touch DoTs. Then I will be able to use the defensive stance in groups and continue to DoT. I will just have to remember NOT to ever nuke. Mind you, a +25/-25 stance would not hurt so much if I did have to nuke.

Why is SOE penalizing us so severely for being in a stance? Especially when, no other class is being penalized for their improvements.

Basically they took away quading at the high end. Other than PoFire it's not worth it and they only leave that avail prolly because they know it's boring as hell doing the same zone over and over. You might guess the bad pathing in later expansions was on purpose just for that reason.

They took away charming at the high end.

They didn't want us to solo. But they can't figure out how to get us in groups without taking away things we have always had and is the reason we enjoy playing a druid.

I'm worried that the stances will snowball. One day we will all just get a grp and each person will decide at the time what class to play. Just base it all on the exp and AA you have, then press a button and zap.... you're a tank, or a healer, or a DPS. :lmao:

Also, what is so wrong with us wanting to solo anyway? Should be a viable option i think. And yes we still can in older zones. But why can't there be more options within the new expansions? They don't have to be 20% AA kills. Just something for a change of scenery.

The only real way to keep us a true druid class and make us wanted more is to come up with something unique for us again. But what is there???? Fixing or tweaking what we already have prolly wont do it. We want these fixes but that wont solve the problem. A button that makes us a cleric or a wizard wont do it. What is there that isn't already coverd by another class? Possibly nothing. How about, since we are the natur lovers, an AA or spell that turns an indoor zone into a forest for a bit, confusing the mobs to some benefit :lmao:

Who knows, but don't take away, with each expansion, our abilities to charm, quad, etc.... just because you don't want us to solo.

As for healing improvements, if that's a solution. If we have to give clerics an invis - do so, I don't want to have to camo them anyway. In end game content it's not a big deal anyway.

There is also the problem of balance of what effects we get between how an average player and a end game player can use anything. Like the new epics. An average player has less use for the effect than the end game raider, hence the arguements.

And by the way, I'm rambling so I'll stop.

It is the flexibility of the druid I love the most. When I'm happiest is when I'm able to contribute damage along with being main healer. If all I can do in a group is heal because of the need to conserve mana for healing, then I'm not really all that happy. If all I'm allowed to do is nuke, with no need to heal, I'm also not happy. I really do not want to be locked into being a one trick pony, whether that one trick is healing or it is nuking.

There really is no solution that will work for all of us. Those who only nuke will love the offensive stance. Those who want to just heal will love the defensive stance. Those of us who both heal and contribute damage will be left as we are ... if we're lucky.


My only hope ;) is that stances will not touch DoTs. Then I will be able to use the defensive stance in groups and continue to DoT. I will just have to remember NOT to ever nuke. Mind you, a +25/-25 stance would not hurt so much if I did have to nuke.

Why is SOE penalizing us so severely for being in a stance? Especially when, no other class is being penalized for their improvements.

Please refer to Scirocco's post above yours.

Why is SOE penalizing us so severely for being in a stance? Especially when, no other class is being penalized for their improvements.

Well maybe because clerics have NO DPS AT ALL, and maybe because wizards CANT HEAL AT ALL. Crazy idea eh?


Basically they took away quading at the high end. Other than PoFire it's not worth it and they only leave that avail prolly because they know it's boring as hell doing the same zone over and over. You might guess the bad pathing in later expansions was on purpose just for that reason.

They took away charming at the high end.

They didn't want us to solo. But they can't figure out how to get us in groups without taking away things we have always had and is the reason we enjoy playing a druid.


Don't you guys see? It's all part of the whole balancing idea. If druids are solo monsters or other classes COUGHCLERICSCOUGH consider us solo monsters, then they will want those same abilities too, so instead of nerfing our abilities, they limited our soloing by using the zones.



Sometimes people spend so much brain power trying to convince themselves that druids are perfectly fine, they don't have enough left for autonomic functions like breathing, and soon begin babbling in an oxygen-deprived state.

You mean like when they rely on flames because they have no valid points to post about?


If mobs are particularly magic resistant, I'm generally going to steer away from trying to quad them with Karana's Rage.... a magic-based quad spell.

Hmmm i wonder why Rain spells were improved upon?


In practice, i would like to see here polls, lotsa polls. When any idea comes up, improving epic, group or AOE fast heal/hot (better then group heal imho , giving pet to druid (how much i would like a rooted tree pet with lotsa hp and no dps which summons!!!), whatever. Make a poll for everything, then get best 30 ideas and let druids vote for the 10 most wanted. Make sure most of surviving droods vote. So we know what we think. web site+polls = direct democracy

Apathy will win. So many people here rambling about how much they hate the current state of the druid, that they want group heals, hots, group curse, fixes to the supposedly useless epic effect, that when people read it that really don't give a damn, they will vote on the first thing that comes up their mind (and that they read about in a post made by someone that QUIT EVERQUEST a while back).

Mhmmm "Storm Wizard" vs "Wizard"

Doing max dps as a druid can actually involve some skill. As a wizzy, if you want to do maximum dps, guess what you do? Mash core fire til your fingers get blisters. As a druid, you have to choose to if and when you should cast what debuffs, if and when you should cast what DoTs, and if you should cast just nukes or alternate with rains in between dots. And on top of that there's other componets that will change your cast descisions, ie casting epic on a mob, bard in group clicking 1.5 / 2.0, or you clicking OOW BP.

That alone makes playing a druid look more appealing than a wizzy. Add heals + more utility to it and the choice is a no brainer.

Taken fight to soe boards instead, starting to think, tdg only cares about dps upgrades at the expense of healing.

On the other hand, with stances you get the same basic druid as above, plus the option to increase 25% in heals or nukes, at your option, while sacrificing some significant percentage (50% in the initial proposal) of the other. Anyone rather have this option?

Stances like this are crap on a stick. It needs to do more then just a straight % increase. Adding 25% to our 1 heal is a useless patch that won't do much. We need a hot/melee guard spell, or something that would reduce the cast time.

Imho, it should do something like the following.
Healing Stance-
+25% base increase (so that focuses/aa will affect it)
-33% spell haste on heals (stacks with spell focus haste)
-50% decrease on spell damage
+33% increase cast time on nukes
DPS Stance -
+25% base increase(so that focuses/aa will affect it)
-33% spell haste on nukes (stacks with spell focus haste)
-50 fr/cr on nukes
-50% decrease on heals
+33% increase cast time on heals

Stances should be able to be changes every 5-10 mins as needed.

I know you don't give a flying leap about the enchanter who got resisted or the wizard that got summoned, but i do and would like the ability to keep them alive.

Problem is the wizzy-druids seem to be the ones in charge of shaping the class, hence we get a dps-only druid epic and pushes for nuke/dot efficiency. There is a balance, and you guys are f-ing it up for the rest of us. The epic with range 200 is still useless for healing and you don't seem to want to compromise. The epic as it stands now if crap, except this wanna-be wizzies. I choose a druid not to be a wizard, but to have the variety and option of doing both. I like to dps and heal, and like to add that option to a group. The epic doesn't reflect it, at least push for an option of 2 different epic effects the current POS or a healing effect one.

The bottom line is this: given the choice of the status quo, or having an option every five minutes to configure myself for the status quo or a 25% increase in nuking or healing, I'm choosing the latter. Can anyone tell me why they would choose the former (other than the unfounded fear that SOE will decrease our nukes and heals by some percentage)?

Scirocco, I never thought I'd disagree with you flat out, but on this I will.

I will certainly take the former. As you describe, it does sound great for *you*. You get +25% stronger nuke. Huzzah! It is great for straight nukeage. But this does *not at all* properly reflect the duality of the druid. +25% heals does not mean squat. It does not suddenly bring the healing side of the druid into balance.

My friends list has shrunk over the months. I don't get the regular friends groups I used to. I am having to LFG more and more. It won't take people long to realize that +25% heals doesn't really help much. +25% nukes ain't gonna do it. Plenty of wizards, mages, rogues, etc LFG, too.

Further, to repeat myself again: this code change is going to be being debugged for MONTHS. This change is gonna to "appear" to be so drastic and look as if Sony has done "so much" for the druids that any changes that would actually be a "Good Thing(TM)" are going to be shot down because "druids have gotten enough attention from the devs."

No, thank you.

Keeping the status quo leaves us with a code base that at least *works* AND gives us a chance to pound into their heads to make the (fairly) minor changes necessary to balance us some and maybe use some creativity in giving us something that makes us more group-competitive. (BTW, stances are not very creative. +25%/-50% is not creative)

I don't see any realistic alternative options. Not with this Dev Team. Not with EQ being as old as it is. Not for the foreseeable future.
Call me a cynic with a masochistic optimistic side. I do see alternatives. I see people posting alternatives. I see a dev team that waxed creative on shamans. A dev team that introduced KEI and healing potions. Actual, grand-scale "events" occuring. Changes to our existing heals.

I see a game that occasionally gets old and people flock to new games for a while and then return again. A playerbase that has a level of expertise and etiquette. Though it may be old, I think it may still be a money maker for another 6 years.

+25% heals does not mean squat. It does not suddenly bring the healing side of the druid into balance.

To be sure, my reference to 25% heals also incorporates my previous comments with regard to the healing stance (namely, that the druid toolkit is lacking). So take what I wrote in that light. The druid toolkit needs an additional tool or two, and that position is regardless of whether stances go in or not. The 25% increase (or whatever it ends up being) would affect those new tools as well as the old ones.


My friends list has shrunk over the months. I don't get the regular friends groups I used to. I am having to LFG more and more. It won't take people long to realize that +25% heals doesn't really help much. +25% nukes ain't gonna do it. Plenty of wizards, mages, rogues, etc LFG, too.

Quite frankly, this is a problem with the recent game design itself, and its overemphasis on group play. Boosting the healing toolkit with a spell or two and adding 25% isn't going to get you that many more groups.

However, let's assume that in one future, we get one or two new tools in our healing toolkit, but no stances. In the other future, we get those tools, and we also get the option to boost all our tools by 25%. The first one is what you end up with (provided you take off your rose-colored glasses and get realistic about what SOE may be willing to do). The second one is what I end up with. Since mine is the exact same as what is achievable with yours, PLUS the chance to add another 25%, I don't see how mine isn't more likely to get me into groups than yours, assuming the group wants a healer. My heals do 25% more heals than yours.


Keeping the status quo leaves us with a code base that at least *works* AND gives us a chance to pound into their heads to make the (fairly) minor changes necessary to balance us some and maybe use some creativity in giving us something that makes us more group-competitive. (BTW, stances are not very creative. +25%/-50% is not creative)

I don't imagine what you think druids will be able to get in the way of healing boosts "instead" of stances. We aren't going to get a whole set of new healing tools...we'll be lucky to get one. And we certainly aren't going to see any more % increases outside stances. And if by some chance druids did got that significant of an increase in healing that you seem to be hoping for, it would come at the cost of our DPS side. (I know you characterize them as "minor" but believe me, SOE doesn't consider them minor. And they aren't.)

As far as creativity, I think stances are about as creative as any of the other changes. More so, in fact.

As far as buggy code...*shrugs*. EQ has had buggy code since day one. For the flexibility of more powerful nuking and healing, I'll put up with it.


.

Well maybe because clerics have NO DPS AT ALL, and maybe because wizards CANT HEAL AT ALL. Crazy idea eh?It appears clerics will do more damage nuking than a druid will in defensive stance with either our fire or our cold nukes ... and be more efficient. Glitterfrost will be about 75% as efficient as Reproach, Solstice Strike 67% as efficient. Each will do less damage than the 1424 of Raproach. So a druid in healing mode will be even more NO DPS AT ALL compared to a cleric. Nor have we seen what additional changes will be made to cleric dps for the re-envisionment.

Even in defensive stance, we still won't be as efficient as a cleric in healing. While Chlorotrope looks to be as efficient as Pious Light, it will heal for about 250 HP less. Yet, this is acceptable. Karana's Renewal (if it is affected by stances) will be almost 80% as efficient, but heal for about 1650 HP less. This is still not acceptable though because of the mana cost. A druid using Karana's is still going to run out of mana long before a cleric using CH does.

We still aren't going to have a heal comparable to Pious Remedy (1990 HP, 495 mana, 1.75 cast time.) Which is the heal I see used most by clerics outside a CH rotation on raids. It is also the heal I see used most in groups when clerics aren't using CH.

Odd that with all the elixirs introduced into EQ, an elixir comparable to the cleric spell haste line was not introduced. There's Elixir of Speed (haste), but no Elixir of Quickened Thoughts (spell haste).

Again, I can deal with stances if the penalty is equal to the increase. I'd turn on defensive mode and stay there. In defensive mode, nukes would be a wee bit more efficient than the cleric nukes, but that's only fair as we will still not be as efficient as clerics in healing.

In all honesty, I'd prefer they re-envision us in other ways than just straight heal/damage increases. But it seems SOE is content with turning us into gimp clerics or gimp wizards. Pity. With some imagination, SOE could have re-envisioned druids using our strengths, instead of making us poor copies of clerics and wizards.

As for switching between defensive and offensive? When most group fights last much less than 5 minutes, I'm not going to be able to switch from defensive to offensive and back to defensive all in the same fight. Can't. That is why +25/-50 stances are useless to me. and that is the way the third group of druids play. Not straight nuking, not straight healing, but a combination of both heals and damage during every fight and on raids.

Please refer to Scirocco's post above yours.Scirocco had not posted while I was posting.

Of course, a lot of druids approach druids from the healing side first, as well. They see themselves as nature priests/clerics with some nuking ability.I saw myself as a healing druid with DoTs. When healing, I much prefer DoTs over nukes. It's why I wasn't thrilled when they lengthened the duration of DoTs rather than shortened them. I've learned to live with it, but there are frequently times the mob dies before my DoT wears off.

The trick is trying to keep both sides satisfied with a balanced class, while still making some changes to the class so that both sides are better equipped to handle a healing or a DPS role (their choice). I get the impression here from various comments that folks want 25% to healing, 25% to nuking, or (gods forbid) 25% to both, without stances.See? There you go. You and SOE seem to think there are only two kinds of druids. If I have to have stances instead of a real healing toolbox, then I want 25% healing or 25% damage with a corresponding 25% decrease in the other ability. But NOT a 50% penalty. A 25% penalty is acceptable.

(I'd personally be happy with a 25% boost to nuke damage, and leave healing alone, but I see the problem with that for all the healing druids).I would not be happy with a 25% boost to our two heal lines. That still does not provide us the tools we need to main heal in all content. That's the real problem isn't it? A 25% increase to nukes makes the nuking druids competitive (though still gimp). A 25% increase to our heals doesn't.

We still aren't going to have a heal comparable to Pious Remedy (1990 HP, 495 mana, 1.75 cast time.) Which is the heal I see used most by clerics outside a CH rotation on raids. It is also the heal I see used most in groups when clerics aren't using CH.


Nature's Infusion, 2050, 560 Mana, 3.75 Cast Time
Add Spell Haste Focus: Quickening of Mithaniel (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3533&source=Live) = Cast time 2.6
Add Blessing of Devotion (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5258&source=Live) = Cast Time 2.3

Differances:
NI Heals for 60 More Hitpoints
NI Takes 65 More Mana
After Haste Focus/Buff (Which does NOT effect Cleric Version), Cast Time differance is .55 - Half a Second

I realize the Quickening focus is not easy to come by, so we'll go with Goad of the Just (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=82079)which has Speed of Mithaniel (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3532). The Goad is available from DoN for about 180 Crystals.

The Goad alone brings NI from 3.75 to 2.82, which is nearly a full second, while there remains a second differance from NI and PR, that single focus makes it much more mangable.

If say, a cleric spell haste is available, you can futher lower that to about 2.5, which is about 3/4ths of a second Differance then the cleric equivlant.

Is NI equal to PR? No. However with proper focuses, it comes pretty close. The main point is PR does not gain from spell haste, and our spells do. This lowers the gap by quite a bit.

-Fenier

Scirocco, I think you have miscategorized me. And that kinda shows you only see druids in two lights, too. Nukers and Healers. That is a shame.

I try to balance both. I certainly do not want the full cleric kit. A mod to the CH simply to make it a bit more efficient and a HoT. That's it. Sure, other stuff would be nice. Fast heal, group heal, etc. But then I really would become pigeon-holed. No thanks.

Anyway, nice to know the split goes all the way to the top. Take your stance with 25% greater nuke power and be happy, I guess. You, too, can profess to us how much Sony has done. SEE! we now can do do 2751 with Solstice Strike. HUZZAH!

You accuse me of rose-colored glasses then try to show me a picture with "one or two new tools in our healing toolkit" AND 25%... No. I don't believe that. You, too, are predicating acceptance with the assumption of more tools. I have seen NOTHING that would convince me of this at the point, you have shared nothing that leads me to believe it. I, too, would be very accepting of the stances IF I KNEW we were getting one or two more tools to go with it. Without that knowledge, I say no, because I do not believe anything further will be done with druids in the near or mid future (say 6-18 mos). It's that simple. At best all this work for stances will be zero-sum, at worst we fall further behind because nothing is really accomplished while other classes forge ahead with better abilities.

If say, a cleric spell haste is available, you can futher lower that to about 2.5, which is about 3/4ths of a second Differance then the cleric equivlant.


Kinda odd when we need to depend on a cleric to improve our healing ability.


Another thing that kills me is the amount of abilities cleric have
- divine intervention (unique)
- mark of kings (able to remove a mob ds without dispelling) - unique
- balance (unique)
- group cheal (unique)
- hand of the gods (unique) dont underestimate how much dps this can be
- new don spell that does significant damage to those hitting it, which is greater then all our damage shields
- yaulp (unique) able to regen significant mana while standing
- cleric pet (not unique, but >>> ours)
- self mana buff


Shammy
- champion
- wunshi - increases the stam cap beyond its current limit (unique)
- avatar - unique
- cannabilize - unique
- alchemy (huge now considering the clarity potions and don potions)
- debuffs
- disease based slow / slow

druids
- evac (shared with wiz)
- dots (shared with shm/nec)
- nukes(every class gets a nuke) except pure melee
- regen(shared with sha)
- ports(shared with wiz)
- snare(shared with wiz/rng/nec/shd/brd)
-debuffs(situational, mariginal use)
-no xp rez(shared with sham)
-damage shield(shared with mage/rng/cleric)
-lionstr(shared/inferior with shammy)
-cr/fr resist buffs(shared with rng?)

Don't think we have any unique abilities and often our shared abilities are significantly worse then other classes.


Suggestions

1) Debuff 50fr/50cr spell, 1.0/1.5 sec cast time, 75 mana, unresistable
2) Debuff, reduced targets melee damage by 25%, doesn't stack with slow, 3.0s ast time - chromatic resist
3) Change Lionstrength from inferior version of shammy spell, to a +10% spell damage, stacks with worn focuses.
4) Targetable version of oaken guard castable on others, absorbs 25% damage up to 3k for 30seconds.
5) swarm treants (ok you sold me on it)
6) double mana regen on the mask of XXX spells, or give us familiar like thing that gives us mana regen. (Hell scrap stances and give us something simular to familiars, that boost healing or nukes or dots)

I try to balance both. I certainly do not want the full cleric kit. A mod to the CH simply to make it a bit more efficient and a HoT. That's it. Sure, other stuff would be nice. Fast heal, group heal, etc. But then I really would become pigeon-holed. No thanks.


What makes you think that this precludes stances, or that stances precludes this? Why on earth wouldn't you want a healing stance to add 25% to your CH and HoT? THAT's what I'm scratching my head over.


You, too, are predicating acceptance with the assumption of more tools. I have seen NOTHING that would convince me of this at the point, you have shared nothing that leads me to believe it.

Yes, I am. As you are assuming that without stances we are more likely to get more healing tools. Fact is, SOE hasn't said anything on it, even though I've pointed out to them in person, on various "top sekret" boards, and again in the latest iteration of the druid issue list.

My view is that we either get one or two small boosts to our healing kit, or we don't. Probably, the chances of getting these boosts are independent of stances (although I can make a good argument that we are more likely to get an expanded toolkit by trying to get it built in as part of the healing stance). So why not stances, even if it is a straightforward 25% boost over whatever healing kit we have?


I, too, would be very accepting of the stances IF I KNEW we were getting one or two more tools to go with it. Without that knowledge, I say no, because I do not believe anything further will be done with druids in the near or mid future (say 6-18 mos). It's that simple.


So you'd rather have the status quo than status quo with a 25% boost? Unless you are still assuming that if we don't get stances we'll get something else equally as good or better. And that assumption, in my opinion, requires rose colored glasses.

Storm Wizard has a nice ring to it although I always saw myself more as a Field Medic or Corpsman.

I can jump out of a Helicopter and patch you up in the middle of a battle. If I need to pull out my rifle and fight to pull you out of the battle, I am trained to do that as well. After your stable, I get you to a real doctor ( Cleric ) to finish the job.

Kinda odd when we need to depend on a cleric to improve our healing ability.

You don't NEED to, but it does help. You gain 2/10ths of a second. Do you NEED that 2/10ths of a second? Well that depends on how you heal.


Another thing that kills me is the amount of abilities cleric have
- divine intervention (unique)
- mark of kings (able to remove a mob ds without dispelling) - unique
- balance (unique)
- group cheal (unique)
- hand of the gods (unique) dont underestimate how much dps this can be
- new don spell that does significant damage to those hitting it, which is greater then all our damage shields
- yaulp (unique) able to regen significant mana while standing
- cleric pet (not unique, but >>> ours)
- self mana buff

Few things here, Mark of Kings does not remove a DS, it lowers the DS on the mob by 20 http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3469&source=Live

Ward of Retribution (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6662&source=Live) Also costs 750 Mana, and its a defensive proc, not a DS. Granted it procs alot, but it not assured damage every hit. Futhermore, Wrath of the Wild (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3257&source=Live) actually deals more damage in a single hit, at no mana cost, but is one shot. Since the lines are no where near similar tho, you can not really draw a valid comperison.

Yaulp is shared with Paladins, the upper 2/3 versions add mana regen, which they need to be standing to benifet from, and it only lasts a few ticks. Druids, in comparison get a Mask spell, which functions as long as the druid is alive, as well as grants see invis and ultravision. The Armor Line and Steeloak even out mana regen wise.

Clerics Have a Hammer, they can make the hammer attack, or go away. The Bear, dispite its level, can do far more then that. Futhermore, we can charm animals to be FAR more effective then the Hammer.


druids
- evac (shared with wiz)
- dots (shared with shm/nec)
- nukes(every class gets a nuke) - regen(shared with sha/rangers)
- ports(shared with wiz)
- snare(shared with wiz/rng/nec/shd/brd) We are also the only class to get a -100 check snare that I am aware of.
-debuffs(situational, mariginal use)
-no xp rez(shared with sham)
-damage shield(shared with mage/rng)
-lionstr(shared/inferior with shammy)
-cr/fr resist buffs(shared with rng?)


Clerics do not get damage shields, they get a spell that deals damage to the mob whenever he hits someone. Note, SOMEONE, not the person with the ds. Futhermore, it stacks with our DS, and its resistable, where ours is not.

Lion's Strength and Might are the exact same, Only differance is they get a group version: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5409&source=Live

Rangers get the basic circles we get at 51/52. It does not compare with our 64 Buff, and is only slightly better then Resist Fire and Resist Cold.


Don't think we have any unique abilities and often our shared abilities are significantly worse then other classes.


Oaken Guard
Wake of Karana
Wrath of the Wild
Enchaned Root AA so breaks are less likely
AE Root
AE Snare, -100 Check, DS, Migration - as one spell.

-Fenier

What makes you think that this precludes stances, or that stances precludes this? Why on earth wouldn't you want a healing stance to add 25% to your CH and HoT? THAT's what I'm scratching my head over.

That is part of the problem. To most folks who have played this class in group and raid settings, traditional druid flexibility doesn't mean nuking twice and then locking ourselves into healing for the remainder. What real flexibility means is doing DPS, healing as needed, and going right back to DPS, all within the same fight or same encounter. Or healing, tossing in DPS when needed, and going back to healing until more DPS is needed.

That flexibility has always been a strength of the class, but attaching an HoT (or some other new heal type) to defensive stance only means in order to use that one tool, we have to become a crippled cleric with less offensive power than a cleric until the stance timer unlocks.

People who wish to play the druid in a traditional way, balancing the flow of healing and damage in the party in a dynamic way, will pretty much need to remain in 'normal' stance. So what do they gain from ANY of this? They're right back where they were before; to them, stances may as well not exist. You can say "well they are choosing to deny themselves extra healing tool or two the defensive stance might hopefully provide" -- but I say, "no, they are choosing to play a druid instead of a wannabe cleric or wannabe wizard."

The game has evolved and healing is no longer a simple matter of maintaining one person's health. Much more frequently, we see typical trash mobs in 70th level grouping content with AEs, rampage (with DoT procs), hard-hitting pets that are highly resistant to spells, and other attributes that a few years ago were unique to bosses and raid mobs.

Independent of stances, any priest class needs a better variety in tools to keep pace with content, yet druid is the only priest class still relying on direct heals.

In order to maintain the integrity of this class, I believe stances should ideally be considered a situational tool, to use in exceptional scenarios in which there is an extreme need for more powerful healing (or damage) than usually required. Druids should not need to be locked into one stance continually just to offer a basic grouping role; if that turned out to be the case, groups would *still* be better off inviting a specialist class for healing or DPS.

~Firemynd

Oaken Guard

You do know that this ability is NOT a new concept, and certainly not unique to druids. OG is simply a rune that mitigates damage instead of absorbing it; and unlike a rune, it's gone in 3 ticks whether or not it was needed.

Wake of Karana

Ever seen tinkered gnome rockets that give every class this exact same ability?

Enchaned Root AA so breaks are less likely

If you play a druid, you might want to learn what your AAs actually do. Both of our root-related AAs are to decrease the chance that a player nuke will break root. The first ability decreases the chance that our own nukes will break a root we have on the mob; and the second ability decreases the chance that others' nukes will break our root.

The mob itself still has the same chance of breaking our root.

~Firemynd

You do know that this ability is NOT a new concept, and certainly not unique to druids. OG is simply a rune that mitigates damage instead of absorbing it; and unlike a rune, it's gone in 3 ticks whether or not it was needed.

Agreed not a new concept, but No other class that I am aware of has a Self Only Buff which migrates damage at that high a rate while also giving them the power to lower their hate by 400 with a defensive proc. Thus, making it unique.

Ever seen tinkered gnome rockets that give every class this exact same ability?

It is still a spell specific to our class. If you start to factor in items and tribuate, etc - then the lines between classes are drastically more blurred. As am example - look how many classes can equip slow procing weapons.


If you play a druid, you might want to learn what your AAs actually do. Both of our root-related AAs are to decrease the chance that a player nuke will break root. The first ability decreases the chance that our own nukes will break a root we have on the mob; and the second ability decreases the chance that others' nukes will break our root.

The mob itself still has the same chance of breaking our root.


Forgive me for not typing the following words:

Less Likely to break root - From Player based direct damage

I was actually going through our aa list when I wrote the orginal post, but re-reading it I see how it could have been confusing to someone who read it afterward.

-Fenier

I was actually going through our aa list when I wrote the orginal post, but re-reading it I see how it could have been confusing to someone who read it afterward.

Going through our list the same as cleric trolls do, when they're trying to make a case that druids have "too much" and a few simple improvements would make us "overpowered" or somehow make clerics "obsolete" ... even though, on the few occasions where druids did get a healing boost, it became quite clear that all the paranoia had been totally unfounded as clerics still maintained a firm monopoly on the healing role.

Easy enough to recognize. It's the same thing they've done for several years, even before AAs existed. We'd ask for a better heal, and one of them would compile some grand list of druid abilities - which of course included snares, ports, sow, but also included any minor fluff spell they could toss in, just to make that list look a bit longer. Meanwhile they would cry foul if a druid countered with a similar list showing that clerics had nearly as many utilities, just not as many that fell into the category of 'convenience'.

Yes, we're aware of how easy it is to look at a "list" and conclude that druids are doing just fine in every way.... real experience playing the class tends to show otherwise.

~Firemynd

You are right we do have a number of unique abilities, lets take a look!


Oaken Guard - Actually its not bad, used it a couple times, poor man's da.

Wake of Karana - stop rain spell, wow, how could i forget that one, and you need an opal to cast it! Nothing like adding a reagant to a useless spell. I think i have cast this spell, 2 times in the past several years, anyone use it more then once every 6 months?

Wrath of the Wild - 650damage per 3 mins, figure your fighting a mob 1/2 those 3 mins, a nice dps increase of 7.22! Not bad!

Enchaned Root AA so breaks are less likely - only against nukes, melee still breaks root pretty fast. Its not like the wizard strong root spell, it just lowers the chance a nuke will break root. Kinda useless imho, if you are rooting and nuking the mob to death, your wasting tons of mana, use dots.

AE Root - can honestly say i have never used it, can't think of a situation where i would.

AE Snare, -100 Check, DS, Migration - as one spell.

Ahh the famous hungry vines! Lets see what it does.
PBAE Snare, 18 second duration, 3 sec cast time, 30 recast. ae range 50, 500 mana
Recource, Group, 20% Melee Damage Absorption to 1600hp lasts 18seconds, 45pt ds.

The best i can tell this was optimized for those encounters involving fleeing snareable ae rampaging mobs that don't hit that hard. This spell just boggles my mind.

If your using it as a snare, you need to time it right, be in range. If its fleeing, no one in group should be taking damage so melee absorption isn't needed. If you have 2 mobs in camp beating people, a 45hp ds is nice to get the mobs in summoning mode.

At 18 seconds duration and 20%/1600hp absorption it aint really that great of a spell. A mob would have to be doing 444dps over 18seconds to fully utilize the recourse and if a mob is doing that much dps, your spamming heals on the tank not casting this spell. Also if a mob does that much dps, you are not fighting that many mobs, so it would be a 1600hp for 500m which is really bad ratio. Even if 2 people were getting hit at 444dps each, thats still 3200hp for 500m which is about as good as cholotrope. The only possible place i can see it being good, is if you have a ae rampaging mob that didn't hit hard and is snareable, but with a 30 sec recast, you can't spam this spell either. For 500 mana, add a 250hp a tic regen to it or something, yuck. I am just glad this is one of the later glowings.


So to recap, the druids are the weather changing, low dps runeing, ae rootn, master of low hitting snarable ae ramping mobs. Rejoice we have found our uniqueness!

On a serious note, i would give up all these abilities for a 5% increase in nukes/dots , 0.2s reduction of cast time on our heals and a cookie.

Yes, we're aware of how easy it is to look at a "list" and conclude that druids are doing just fine in every way.... real experience playing the class tends to show otherwise.

I did not anywhere say we where doing just fine, it was mentioned we had no unquie abilities. To be fair, that statement was false, and I found some.
They are clearly not the best, however we are the only class that does get them.

So, if someone was to make a list, and compare unquie skills, they need to be included. That was the point I was trying to make. Clearly none of them are anywhere near Divine Arb, but they do exist.

-Fenier

That flexibility has always been a strength of the class, but attaching an HoT (or some other new heal type) to defensive stance only means in order to use that one tool, we have to become a crippled cleric with less offensive power than a cleric until the stance timer unlocks.


That's why I am pushing for a bigger druid healing toolkit now, so that healing stance can be simple (i.e., a % increase in heal, perhaps a % decrease in casting time, whatever).

Of course, keep in mind that we may not ever see anything new to our druid healing toolkit. The healing changes are pretty much over, and our last chance to see a HoT or something else may only be through stances. Or a reduction in casting time of SotG.

So why oppose stances when it shouldn't prevent us from getting a better toolkit upfront (if we can get one at all)?



People who wish to play the druid in a traditional way, balancing the flow of healing and damage in the party in a dynamic way, will pretty much need to remain in 'normal' stance. So what do they gain from ANY of this? They're right back where they were before; to them, stances may as well not exist. You can say "well they are choosing to deny themselves extra healing tool or two the defensive stance might hopefully provide" -- but I say, "no, they are choosing to play a druid instead of a wannabe cleric or wannabe wizard."

Yes, if you want that traditional flexibility, you have to play like a traditional druid. Thus, normal stance.

Do you really think that we could get any significant increase in healing or DPS beyond what we currently have? SOE thinks druids are pretty much in balance, so we don't have a lot of room to work with.

Significant increases in healing or DPS are going to have to come at some cost.



In order to maintain the integrity of this class, I believe stances should ideally be considered a situational tool, to use in exceptional scenarios in which there is an extreme need for more powerful healing (or damage) than usually required. Druids should not need to be locked into one stance continually just to offer a basic grouping role; if that turned out to be the case, groups would *still* be better off inviting a specialist class for healing or DPS.

That's fine. Use stances as often as you wish, or stay in normal mode most of the time. You have the flexibility to do so.

I've just about given up that SOE will ever do anything to "fix" Druids. All they do is the bare minimum to be able to "publically" say they care when in fact they do not.

Druids have been unchanged for a long time... MUCH longer than even SOE admitted we needed help yet do they do anything to help us? No.... all promises with no action.

Fact is that much of what is needed can be done in a matter of minutes. Testing? BS! There is nothing to test or it would be on the test server by now. Wait until we do other classes? BS! How many times have we heard this over the years?

By the end of the year? This message months and months ago was "not" a end of the year fix so something happened (yet again!) to push us aside.

Is anyone tired of being walked over? How much crap does a person take before you say.... enough!

We all know the answers even if we do not want to admit it. Druids will be fixed (well SOE's half-assed fix) after the next expansion.

Very soon we'll get the predictable excuse...

We're going to wait until the next expansion comes out to see how the new stuff affects Druids before we do anything.

READ THAT LINE AGAIN!

We're going to wait until the next expansion comes out to see how the new stuff affects Druids before we do anything.

We're going to wait until the next expansion comes out to see how the new stuff affects Druids before we do anything.

We're going to wait until the next expansion comes out to see how the new stuff affects Druids before we do anything.

DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR? IT SHOULD.... IT'S THE VERY SAME LINE WE WERE TOLD PRIOR TO DoN WHEN WE WERE ASKING TO BE LOOKED AT.

We were told to wait until after DoN and see how the new spells would affect us before SOE added anything to us. Well apparently those new uber snares were enough because they did squat for us!

So talk all you want now about asking for this or that. SOE will do only the bare minimum so they can "claim" they are doing something.

For crying out loud.... they will not even talk to us.

-Cass

P.S. Fool me once shame on you.... fool me twice shame on me!

That's fine. Use stances as often as you wish, or stay in normal mode most of the time. You have the flexibility to do so.

As I said, stances, regardless of what they might add situationally, should not be required for us to perform the basic role of a priest. And ANY priest in today's high level EQ needs more than a direct heal in their everyday spell lineup. In their 'normal' mode, pure priest classes should have adequate tools to sustain their party in relevent content appropriate for their level.

Scirocco, you are biased very heavily towards the stance idea because you have nothing to lose; the druid already has some variety in DPS, so even if nothing but a flat % is added to offensive mode, that's a big boost for druids who rarely play healer.

For the very first time since you became our class correspondant, I honestly think you are misrepresenting a significant portion of the class: those who don't believe druids should have to sacrifice 50% of their DPS to be capable main healers in groups, and shouldn't have to sacrifice our DPS in order to meet expectations of patch/group healers in raid settings.

It seems you are intentionally giving SOE the idea that most of us who *do* rely on our healing in groups and raids will be perfectly happy if all further healing improvements are tied to the defensive stance. But from all the comments I've heard both in forums and in-game, I doubt even half would find that acceptable.

~Firemynd

Ideas:

Increase our Glaciers Breaths AC redux up to allow a mob to be killed just as much faster as hasted vs. non hasted melee.

Increase our attack debuffs to give as much less incomming dps as slow.

Change Lion Strength to a buff that adds a flat % to spell damage to whichever party member it's cast on.

Put the CR and FR debuff components of our spells into one spell, then assemble the AC debuff and atk debuff into seperate spells. Giving us one for resist debuffs, another for AC debuffs, and a third for atk debuffs.

Add to the epic a toned down version of the palidans epic effect, causing a mob to take more dmg from nukes as well as causing a party member to take more hp from heals, depending who you cast it on.. downside being the mob also gets more hp back if its gets healed while the effect is on.

12 seconds of 3 Swarm Boo Boos, they have very few HP, small DS.. and constantly proc a 6 sec duration snare.

Give us an indoor AE snare that.. for every mob you snare, you or your party gains a % movement increase for 12 seconds... the more snared mobs in one blast, the faster you go.

Upgrade boo boo... not DPS or hp, but allow people who stand near him to slowly shed detrimental counters, tick by tick. Or perhaps give us a buff that removes a set number of counters per turn. Shaman could cure ailments faster, but with preparation, we could also quickly with pureblood + this buff.

Turn Immolation of Ro into a DoT focus debuff, making DoTs tick for more damage on the debuffed mob.

Upgraded Nature's Recovery that is a regen which heals for more per tick when you are less and less in hp, becoming a nice elixer when your nearly dead.

Give us a clickable agro reduction with moderate refresh time, dropping you by a set amount of hate on any mobs thats agro'd on you.. but not to the point of a fade.

Make hungry vines a targeted AE, the recourse happens where the targets are, each target that gets snared springs up it's own area of the recourse effect for party members to enjoy. Basicly an upgrade to AE snare/root as CC devices or for the small mitigation effect for nasty pulls.

Change our charm into a spell that creates a weaker, semi-transparent mirror image of the mob you are fighting to join your battle. This would be a cross of wake the dead, charm, and hammer pet... the more you cast, the more copies you can have... but they have a short lifespan.

I don't think stances will happen, but whatever does.. I only pray it's somethin that tries to be creative. The marginal adjusting of this value of heal or that amout of nuke is not going to add any more fun, at most just take away some frustration.

In order to maintain the integrity of this class, I believe stances should ideally be considered a situational tool, to use in exceptional scenarios in which there is an extreme need for more powerful healing (or damage) than usually required. Druids should not need to be locked into one stance continually just to offer a basic grouping role; if that turned out to be the case, groups would *still* be better off inviting a specialist class for healing or DPS.

Am i missing something or isn't that the whole point of the stances, to be a situational ability? Or at least that's what i thought. People have the misconception that you will need to be perma locked into a stance to be able to perform well?

For the very first time since you became our class correspondant, I honestly think you are misrepresenting a significant portion of the class: those who don't believe druids should have to sacrifice 50% of their DPS to be capable main healers in groups, and shouldn't have to sacrifice our DPS in order to meet expectations of patch/group healers in raid settings.

It seems you are intentionally giving SOE the idea that most of us who *do* rely on our healing in groups and raids will be perfectly happy if all further healing improvements are tied to the defensive stance. But from all the comments I've heard both in forums and in-game, I doubt even half would find that acceptable.


Are healing improvement tied to the healing stance? As far as i know we got bigger heals that are more mana effective and we don't have stances yet. If this is the case with future healing improvement, i don't see how they won't be "effective" for the normal stance druid... That's why changes are being made NOW before the stances are introduced.

Fyre, why are you fearing change so much? We havent been given any details about stances aside from percent numbers that could be changed any time.

For the very first time since you became our class correspondant, I honestly think you are misrepresenting a significant portion of the class: those who don't believe druids should have to sacrifice 50% of their DPS to be capable main healers in groups, and shouldn't have to sacrifice our DPS in order to meet expectations of patch/group healers in raid settings.


As a correspondent, I don't "represent" druids. Moreover, I interpret your statement as saying that a significant portion of druids want a signficant boost in healing without touching DPS. A minor boost, like one more "tool" for the toolkit, is probably reasonable. A significant boost? No way, based on what I've seen SOE do and say. It doesn't matter whether I'm a druid "representative" or not.

Moreover, I do hear a lot of druids say that druid are capable main healers in many group situations. I agree that that's not enough, and that druids should be able to act as main healers for all group encounters. If you think that this position is "misrepresenting" the class, so be it.




It seems you are intentionally giving SOE the idea that most of us who *do* rely on our healing in groups and raids will be perfectly happy if all further healing improvements are tied to the defensive stance. But from all the comments I've heard both in forums and in-game, I doubt even half would find that acceptable.

Where am I giving SOE this idea? This thread? The only thing I've said to SOE people in face to face meetings regarding stances is:

1. Communicate with the druid community regarding the status of stances as you work on them.

2. Keep in mind that a simple % increase in heals is not going to be sufficient for the healing stance given the current limited healing toolkit druids have. Druids need that toolkit expanded.

Suggestion for druid issue list:

Double the max hit # of OoW quest BP clickies.

I have a druid in WOW. I don't enjoy her as much because I don't like stances. I love playing a druid in EQ, and hope that one day my friends will group with me even when our favorite cleric isn't on. I hope that around the time stances come out, so will Vanguard.

Dear druids,

I want to remark again that increasing nukes or heals isnt going to change anything .. EVEN if both nukes and heals were raised both by 25% which is not going to happen.

When i form a group for like RSS I start by seeking a suitable tank, then a slower then a cleric or shammie. I NEVER seek not invite another druid. Even 2 druids will barely do the job of healing. And if things get just slightly rough they immediatly get aggro and die .. wipe. After i have a tank a slower a healer i start looking for dps.. the easy part. I prefer mages or necros or rogues, I will rarely invite another druid or even a wizzie for this role.
Will a healing increse make me invite a druid? no. Clerics and shammies are much better in keeping a group up.
Will a nuking increase make me invite a druid? no. Only if none of the other classes is lfg, Some always are, or will shortly be.

Sometimes i even feel like i am screwing the group i am forming. Like in mpg trials, groups would be better without me. I feel they only keep me cause i formed group, for fairness. And it happened to me that after 30 min in tell hell forming group for DON a cleric came by they all disbanded and reformed with the cleric. So much for our usefulness to groups. Frustration++. Fun factor --.

What is important is what roles we can cover .. in current situation, none well.
Options are
- having a new well defined role .. which doesnt make us compete (and not well) for the LAST spot in group invites. This requires a REAL reenvisioning and PROFOUND change of us druids .. like my proposal of master of emergencies .. or gives us something to counteract summons or a nice pet .. or wolf form with high mitigation that makes us tanks .. or ability to buff (green, hate the grim color of wos or NC :) the terrain around the group opening new tactics .. or whatever.
- stances .. ok mybe group will invite us before a wizzie .. which are often sitting lfg for hours too lol .. or if no cleric or shammie lfg (same as now!!! where is the improvment?)
- do nothing (most likely) .. well bah should i really pay onother year of EQ forming RSS groups just to get that last 4 glowing runes???? Or to finish epic 1.5? Which you say are mostly useless? Or to join a raiding guild, sacrificing my personal life to .. what? Druid is nice cause is fitting my lifestyle.. GF is taking hours to get rdy to go out? no problem, lets solo a couple mobs. Well after 150 aa I can do root rotting again :))))) great!! i regained one f the basic abilities i had at 50!!! man i feel so satisfied!


BTW AOE root was a GREAT addition for 1-2 levels .. i was using as a ghetto AOE crowd control tool in LDONs and kept group from wiping a few times .. now please PLEASE remove the nuking part from it so i can use it in OOW on summoning mobs!!!! Anyway it NEEDS combo with oaken guard (and its not enough!).. tank DS will damage enough for mobs to start summoning the DRUID in a few soconds if tank doesnt run away from rooted mobs.. thats another role gone .. ghetto CC

.

BTW .. i am doing epic 1.5.
The ONLY reason why i do epic 1.5 is the focus effect .. the aggro reducer.

Do you realize that druids cant do much because of aggro too? Not only they are the only class left that goes OOM so easily .. Not only they are one of the easiest classes to drop if they have aggro. They ALSO gan get aggro easily from an uber 70 war with JUST 3 DOTS!! that's just 250 dps .. ridiculous.

Ahh and lets talk about debuffs.. lets assume group pulls a hard mob .. as patch healer u throw 1-2 fast heals before slow, then you debuff as early as possible to make drop sure and healer job easier and to help fire nukes later, right?? WRONG.

Druid aggros and drops in 1 sec, mob runs around, tank loses aggro, wipe. Everybody pissed off with drood. Nice eh?

Or you dont patch heal (cleric can deal with it anyway), you debuff at 90% and then wait till 50% doing nothing .. cant even snare without risking to get aggro!

So I stopped to use debuffs too in group situations. Another piece of fun going away.

Epic 1.5 is great! it makes me overcome the aggro nerf!!! nice!!! lovely!!!

-------------------------------------------------------

Oh yes . 1 more thing. When soloing (ahhh .. root rotting :) .. but didnt i think it was boring as hell long time ago? ) I pull and stack 8 dots on the mob. So i can kill dragorns in MPG while lfg. Nice?

8 dots, 6 spells = 6 slots

Yes .. but have 9 spell slots only!! I kinda need root (1 slot) and snare too .. but which snare? AOE snare nice, makes these Ł/&$% soe speed OOW mobs go a bit slower (65% instead of just 55%). But lasts too short and i died too many times. Ensnare? resisted= instant evac or dead. Mire thorns? only lasts 3 minutes and mob STILL runs fast as hell. Should last AS ensnare AND decrease speed 70%!!!! Oh and i dont have hungry vines yet! I would say 2 slots necessary for snaring.

Harmony often necessary on pulls .. 1 slot

Then once pulled that wicked dps mobs MUST be debuffed .. 2 more slots.
AOE blind too good to have while waiting the sloooooooooooooooooooooow cast on our epic. 1 more slot. If root breaks i might have to use oaken guard in close quartiers. 1 more slot

Ah fast heal is a must. 1 more slot.

And thanks god instant evac takes 1 slot away. (well if u use it then soloing is suicide if evac is down)

In total, for soloing comfortably root rotting i would need like 15 slots.
Something wrong is here.
I am actually using 2 spell sets and PRAY root doesnt break while i switch spells.

Same goes for charming .. using 2 spell sets there too

They ALSO gan get aggro easily from an uber 70 war with JUST 3 DOTS!! that's just 250 dps .. ridiculous.

I'd love to see where your finding these "uber" warriors who can't hold agro.
I can group with a warrior thats has a Darkblade of the Warlord from Time and Epic 1.5 with Anger augs and I can drop 4 dots and sit.

I honestly think the warrior is your problem not the druid.
Sure we get agro when we drop trope on a cleric who got heal agro but um, the cleric had agro first which shows they aren't doing any better or you wouldn't have to heal them.

I should have said

tank= "Average RSS or MPG tank by pickup groups standard"

that better?

Kzar made this comment:
__________________________________________________ ___________________
Ahh the famous hungry vines! Lets see what it does.
PBAE Snare, 18 second duration, 3 sec cast time, 30 recast. ae range 50, 500 mana
Recource, Group, 20% Melee Damage Absorption to 1600hp lasts 18seconds, 45pt ds.

The best i can tell this was optimized for those encounters involving fleeing snareable ae rampaging mobs that don't hit that hard. This spell just boggles my mind.

If your using it as a snare, you need to time it right, be in range. If its fleeing, no one in group should be taking damage so melee absorption isn't needed. If you have 2 mobs in camp beating people, a 45hp ds is nice to get the mobs in summoning mode.
__________________________________________________ _________

The time to cast Hungry Vines is right at the beginning of a fight because the damage mitigation will make the mob damage your tank a great deal less while at the same time allowing your groups slower to get their slow on the mob. It can also be very nice if you get more than one mob in camp to chain cast and keep the damage down as well as adding some damage to the second mob. I find this spell to be extremely useful now in grouping situations in RS or MPG.

And also there have been many occasions where the group makeup for me has been 3 druids a paladin a beastlord and some other class other than cleric and we have kicked total butt. The nice thing about it is we can mix up the roles and do many different things to add to damage.

You guys seem to think that you need a shaman/enchanter, Cleric, and Warrior in the group to make something happen. This is not correct. Its just narrow minded thinking.

Good ones beatzlayer .. here what i think:

Ideas:

Increase our Glaciers Breaths AC redux up to allow a mob to be killed just as much faster as hasted vs. non hasted melee.

nice

Increase our attack debuffs to give as much less incomming dps as slow.

a must .. they should be %atk debuffs, not fixed numbers

Change Lion Strength to a buff that adds a flat % to spell damage to whichever party member it's cast on.

yes good idea.. grr everybody always wants shammy buffs downside .. good side only newbies annoy droods for buffs nowadays

Put the CR and FR debuff components of our spells into one spell, then assemble the AC debuff and atk debuff into seperate spells. Giving us one for resist debuffs, another for AC debuffs, and a third for atk debuffs.

I would better concentrate all on a single debuff .. snare, resist, atk, ac .. all in one lol fewer slots

Add to the epic a toned down version of the palidans epic effect, causing a mob to take more dmg from nukes as well as causing a party member to take more hp from heals, depending who you cast it on.. downside being the mob also gets more hp back if its gets healed while the effect is on.

fair enough

12 seconds of 3 Swarm Boo Boos, they have very few HP, small DS.. and constantly proc a 6 sec duration snare.

make 6 small beasts/plants attacking :) .. would look much more spectacular.. rats+ boo + a tree + some flower :)

Give us an indoor AE snare that.. for every mob you snare, you or your party gains a % movement increase for 12 seconds... the more snared mobs in one blast, the faster you go.

bah indoor? usually not much space to run to usually .. gimme a indoor 90% snare :)

Upgrade boo boo... not DPS or hp, but allow people who stand near him to slowly shed detrimental counters, tick by tick. Or perhaps give us a buff that removes a set number of counters per turn. Shaman could cure ailments faster, but with preparation, we could also quickly with pureblood + this buff.

disagree .. would be useful for AOE dots .. but boo boo would be first to puff on a AOE .. and raids wouldnt allow it anyway

Turn Immolation of Ro into a DoT focus debuff, making DoTs tick for more damage on the debuffed mob.

umm yes/no .. its my opening DOT on group mobs and already is too long. Just add the focus to the dot as it is :) Casting focus+dot would take too long and take 2 spell slots

Upgraded Nature's Recovery that is a regen which heals for more per tick when you are less and less in hp, becoming a nice elixer when your nearly dead.

LOVELY .. nonlinear regen love the idea :)

Give us a clickable agro reduction with moderate refresh time, dropping you by a set amount of hate on any mobs thats agro'd on you.. but not to the point of a fade.

what about an AA? this would be almost a must for us (see above)

Make hungry vines a targeted AE, the recourse happens where the targets are, each target that gets snared springs up it's own area of the recourse effect for party members to enjoy. Basicly an upgrade to AE snare/root as CC devices or for the small mitigation effect for nasty pulls.

what about a targeted aoe root AND recourse in 1 spell with druid immune?

Change our charm into a spell that creates a weaker, semi-transparent mirror image of the mob you are fighting to join your battle. This would be a cross of wake the dead, charm, and hammer pet... the more you cast, the more copies you can have... but they have a short lifespan. .

nice but would u cast ANYTHING else than this then? I wouldnt :)

I like the idea of having another epic 1.5/2.0 with a Healing Focus/Effect, instead of the Damage one. All the other stats exactly the same.

All the Damage Druids who like the current one can keep it, a druid who would rather favor his healing/priest role can swap it.

When i form a group for like RSS I start by seeking a suitable tank, then a slower then a cleric or shammie. I NEVER seek not invite another druid. Even 2 druids will barely do the job of healing. And if things get just slightly rough they immediatly get aggro and die .. wipe. After i have a tank a slower a healer i start looking for dps.. the easy part. I prefer mages or necros or rogues, I will rarely invite another druid or even a wizzie for this role.
Will a healing increse make me invite a druid? no. Clerics and shammies are much better in keeping a group up.
Will a nuking increase make me invite a druid? no. Only if none of the other classes is lfg, Some always are, or will shortly be.

Druids with developed Mana Regen, Adept and Gift AAs can heal RS without a cleric. I would strongly still however, recommand a slower. Druids can also function as dps with the bonus of patch healing. They are far from useless in RS.


Sometimes i even feel like i am screwing the group i am forming. Like in mpg trials, groups would be better without me. I feel they only keep me cause i formed group, for fairness. And it happened to me that after 30 min in tell hell forming group for DON a cleric came by they all disbanded and reformed with the cleric. So much for our usefulness to groups. Frustration++. Fun factor --.


So the players you invited, suck. As a Druid, I have soloed healed all trials with exception of Ingenuity. It takes work, and planning the correct AAs to accomplish that. Should you not be healing a MPG Trial, you can sure use your nukes and dots to deal damage.

Options are
- having a new well defined role .. which doesnt make us compete (and not well) for the LAST spot in group invites. This requires a REAL reenvisioning and PROFOUND change of us druids .. like my proposal of master of emergencies .. or gives us something to counteract summons or a nice pet .. or wolf form with high mitigation that makes us tanks .. or ability to buff (green, hate the grim color of wos or NC :) the terrain around the group opening new tactics .. or whatever.
- stances .. ok mybe group will invite us before a wizzie .. which are often sitting lfg for hours too lol .. or if no cleric or shammie lfg (same as now!!! where is the improvment?)
- do nothing (most likely) .. well bah should i really pay onother year of EQ forming RSS groups just to get that last 4 glowing runes???? Or to finish epic 1.5? Which you say are mostly useless? Or to join a raiding guild, sacrificing my personal life to .. what? Druid is nice cause is fitting my lifestyle.. GF is taking hours to get rdy to go out? no problem, lets solo a couple mobs. Well after 150 aa I can do root rotting again :))))) great!! i regained one f the basic abilities i had at 50!!! man i feel so satisfied!


You are basically stating that druid's are useless, becuase you seem to believe that setup. What you are experiancing is a player basis. People think that clerics are better and you have yet to prove otherwise so they continue that assumption. If you want to change outlook, it needs to start on a personal level.

BTW AOE root was a GREAT addition for 1-2 levels .. i was using as a ghetto AOE crowd control tool in LDONs and kept group from wiping a few times .. now please PLEASE remove the nuking part from it so i can use it in OOW on summoning mobs!!!! Anyway it NEEDS combo with oaken guard (and its not enough!).. tank DS will damage enough for mobs to start summoning the DRUID in a few soconds if tank doesnt run away from rooted mobs.. thats another role gone .. ghetto CC

AE Root doesn't deal enough damage to most mobs to start their summoning cycle.

Oaken Guard is not required for AE rooting things unless you plan to be hit in the process by a decent amount of damage which you think may kill you.

If your tank is having his DS hit the mobs to begin with, he is to close.

Alternively, pull less mobs and using Savage Roots negates the problem entirely.

-Fenier

Stances are not going to cut it, pure and simple. Stances are a foreign concept in a long established game. Stances will throw the game balance out of wack, and will never be able to be fixed. From this day forward (or WHENEVER they are implemented) ALL content will have to balanced 3 different ways AT THE SAME TIME!

Not Even slightly close.


Stances are going to do MORE than ruin Druids...they are going to mess up the whole game! Stance will NOT make us more desirable in groups. Dorda's prime example of HOW groups are put together is the model we are working with here....NOT some fancey pipe-dream of importing a cool idea from another game!

Becuase being better able to fill in during a healing or dps role is obviously a bad thing for us.


I have had it happen to me...been ousted from the group i was forming in favor of a cleric! THAT speaks volumes and volumes of TRUTH!

That people suck, not druids.


Stances WILL NOT make us more flexible....I simply cannot see how anyone would think that by locking us into a minor portion of our role we can be called more flexible! It is totally backwards thinking! (you know, the old "Buy And Save" mentality, only this time its "Lockdown and be Flexible")

Again, becuase being able to do one of two major class aspects better when the situation demands it is clearly a bad thing.

WHAT good is all this work going to be IF Druids don't USE stances? THINK of what this same effort could have resulted in IF it had been focused on aspects of our class THAT REALLY NEED FIXING!

I would *love* to know what you really consider needs fixing.


And...What other class has to battle the prevailent mind set of "Druids have to give up something in order to get ANYTHING"? What do Rangers give up when they go Fearless? What does a Warrior give up when they go Defensive? How did this attitude towards Druids begin? From where? Jealous board trolls cruising the forums and doing thier level best to KEEP US DOWN!

Actually, when a Ranger goes fearless, unless they stop disc they are prevented from using Trueshot until the fearless disc expires.

Warriors have all thier skills damage modifers reduced by 55 percent in Defensive, or suffer a 70 percent snare in Stonewall.

So yes classes to give up things.

Here's my tought on stances: for nukes it will rock. For heals it won't make much of a difference unless we get other type of heals.

here's my thought on epic: don't change it. I'm not even a "blaster" druid. I could care less about nuking. It's something we do plain and simple. I like healing more...

Short and simple.

Dear Fenier .. you may absolutely correct with your answers, but i am just talking about my own experience. I only have 150 aa's .. hope something will improve after i get another 150. With 300 aa mybe i can function again.

I would say all classes and EQ have split up in 2..
- the toons which belong to raiding guilds and the players who can put 50% of ALL their evenings into raiding are fit to the task (lol i met a druid with 2300 ac and 14000 hp yesterday! impressive to see soloing.. its another class really)
- the toons like Dorda that never could be in raiding guild. 1300 ac, 7khp max buffed, 7Kmana. As such i felt my power and freedom decrease (relative to useful mobs) with level after lev 50, an i am 8 months locked in OOW trying to get my runes. A ton of AA make me regain some ability, but I dont think i will ever get back to the level of class enjoyment i had at 50 unless i join a raiding guild. And I can't.

Druids with developed Mana Regen, Adept and Gift AAs can heal RS without a cleric. I would strongly still however, recommand a slower. Druids can also function as dps with the bonus of patch healing. They are far from useless in RS.

ok .. need more aa grind, and epic 1.5 to avoid getting aggro.

So the players you invited, suck. As a Druid, I have soloed healed all trials with exception of Ingenuity. It takes work, and planning the correct AAs to accomplish that. Should you not be healing a MPG Trial, you can sure use your nukes and dots to deal damage.

for sure i cant heal MPG trials yes .. and other classes can heal more or damage more. And have more utility. They are plain better imho.

You are basically stating that druid's are useless, becuase you seem to believe that setup. What you are experiancing is a player basis. People think that clerics are better and you have yet to prove otherwise so they continue that assumption. If you want to change outlook, it needs to start on a personal level.

no .. i am trying to find the cause why druids dont get invited in pickup groups. I am just thinking that the druids rarely get invited because others can do things better. Getting tank+healer+slower is a must and many people will join group only if they can think that it will work decently. Clerics ask how many hp the tank has before joining, tanks prefer a cleric to be in group, and nothing can be done before the slower arrives. And I will invite the others (and they will likely join) if they know the group will not sit for hours before starting. Its all bout everybody trying to optimize their fun/time ratio.

Anyway things are improving for me now with 150 aa! at 300aa they could get fine. But why must we wait 300 aa before getting to the fun again? I dont think other classes have this... they IMPROVE with aa, not just REGAIN abilities they had at lower levels. Yes we get some too.. but little in my opinion. No swarms, no flashy things, .. might be wrong, correct me.

AE Root doesn't deal enough damage to most mobs to start their summoning cycle.

Oaken Guard is not required for AE rooting things unless you plan to be hit in the process by a decent amount of damage which you think may kill you.

If your tank is having his DS hit the mobs to begin with, he is to close.

Alternively, pull less mobs and using Savage Roots negates the problem entirely.


I was thinking about emergency management .. a small train to the group. How many mobs inc? u dont know when u hit the AOE root. As soon as first mob appears i start casting. In close quartiers, some mob may be near group when the aoe root hits .. hence the tank DS and guard.. if 2-3 mobs you are right, savage roots better and i use that.

ok .. need more aa grind, and epic 1.5 to avoid getting aggro.


SCS 3 does alot, granted its AA, but you should not feel pressured into doing the 1.5, Tho, completing it does give you 5 AA.

for sure i cant heal MPG trials yes .. and other classes can heal more or damage more. And have more utility. They are plain better imho.

I am really not sure which class matches us for utility, unless your speaking about bards.



Anyway things are improving for me now with 150 aa! at 300aa they could get fine. But why must we wait 300 aa before getting to the fun again? I dont think other classes have this... they IMPROVE with aa, not just REGAIN abilities they had at lower levels. Yes we get some too.. but little in my opinion. No swarms, no flashy things, .. might be wrong, correct me.


I think, a large part if the issue is people trying to compete in newer content with gear and AA basically designed for a previous expansion. I am not trying to attack you, so please do not take it that way.

A Druid with 150 AA is fine for most PoP zones, LDoN, even DoN. Depending on which aa and the area however, they may run into issues in GoD and Omens.

GoD has a very high Damage potional on the mobs. Likewise, they have smaller amounts of hp, but they can kill people easily.

Omens differed from that a great deal by increasing the amouont of hp, and decreasing the damage output in most cases

You could be killing the same level mob in both eras, but the one in GoD is bound to hit harder then the omens one.

DoN reverted it a bit back with a more moderate damage/hp ratio. You may have issues healing in The Nest, depending on the tank, but you should be more then effective anywhere else.

As far as spells go, MPG is a good source of 69/70 runes. Not as good as say RS, but its up there. You are more then fine for healing things like Dranik's Hallows, where runes for 66-68 drop decently.

-Fenier

The time to cast Hungry Vines is right at the beginning of a fight because the damage mitigation will make the mob damage your tank a great deal less while at the same time allowing your groups slower to get their slow on the mob.

Why would you want to waste you mana doing that.
The 20% damage absorption for 18s on 1 tank = 1600 hp for 500 mana = 3.2 hp/m
One cholortrope without any focus/aa's = 4.07 hp/m, and hungry vines is probably more aggro.


It can also be very nice if you get more than one mob in camp to chain cast and keep the damage down as well as adding some damage to the second mob. I find this spell to be extremely useful now in grouping situations in RS or MPG.

A) You can't chain cast it, it has a 30s recast.
B) Umm, usually on a 2pull, the 2nd mob usually doesn't have any decent aggro estabilished. By casting a pbae snare, you are going to get aggro on that 2nd mob, a ds is nice, because you can get it low enough to summon you! So now the 2nd mob is summoning and aggroing on the druid. Nice spell.

You guys seem to think that you need a shaman/enchanter, Cleric, and Warrior in the group to make something happen. This is not correct. Its just narrow minded thinking.

Actually, i play late nights when most of the clerics/tanks are asleep and have done so many non standard groups. I find those to be a great deal of fun with the right people. We usually have a bst slow, and a druid healing, and a ranger tanking.

here's my thought on epic: don't change it. I'm not even a "blaster" druid. I could care less about nuking. It's something we do plain and simple. I like healing more...


Shrug, for something consider "epic" and "class defining" it sure sucks the back end of a cow. They should change the druid description to "mediocre".

Druids with developed Mana Regen, Adept and Gift AAs can heal RS without a cleric.


Misleading statement. A beastlord could probably heal in rs. Doesn't mean they can do it well. I can heal rs just fine with a decent tank and for a couple mobs. No way can i approach the same killrate as if a cleric replaced me. Take an rs group with a druid(max aa, max focus, max ft, max gear, 10k mana) and swap him out for a level 65 cleric, bazaar geared, low aa. The cleric will outheal and the group can kill more, with less downtime. Hell, if they added in a shammy, they could heal better, buff better and slow to boot.

So if you like the people you are grouping with, do them a favor, get a cleric to replace you, at least let them get some decent xp.

So the players you invited, suck. As a Druid, I have soloed healed all trials with exception of Ingenuity. It takes work, and planning the correct AAs to accomplish that. Should you not be healing a MPG Trial, you can sure use your nukes and dots to deal damage.


No it takes a wear geared group with lots of aa to compensate for you.

On on the subject of aa's 300 add what,
28% increase in heals
21% chance to crit heal
8 mana regen
sotg
critical affliction/nuke crit %

Its not that overpowering, 300 aa's don't turn us into something uber, just a little better. In fact once we hit 330, we don't gain that much. A druid with 900 aa is not much, if any better then a druid with 300. The druid aa tree is kinda of one of the more un-imaginative and least benefical of all the healing classes. They really need to revamp and add some useful aa's, because soe really dropped the ball on druid aa.

No it takes a wear geared group with lots of aa to compensate for you.

Alot of the Trials is simply aggro mangement. Less people getting hit = easier to heal. Thus, being fimilar with the trial helps a ton.

Trials like Efficiency require you to be smart, you don't typically go spamming CT in a trial where your suffering a mana drain AE and are already down 3500 mana from the second the trial begins.

If you are smart and understand the encounter, you can win with less then ideal groups. You may do things slight differantly, but its still possiable to win. What we have here is you clearly think druid's are underpowered. That's fine, its your opinion, but it does not make it truth.

What we have here is you clearly think druid's are underpowered. That's fine, its your opinion, but it does not make it truth.

Well I am currently trying to get chain leashes in RCOD for the burning affliction 5 quest item. There is a spot where 3 ukuns spawn. I am trying to solo them Did 10 attempts, died 4 times, instant evaced 6, killed none.

It usually goes like this:
- harmony as needed, wolf form and levi up.
- pull with mire thorns, reststed 90% of time with 380 wis.
- ukun starts running at soe speed.
- i run as hell and get as far as possible, i try resnaring. Managed to do once.
- if not sticks (another 90% of the time), evac or .. well **DIE**.
- if sticks, i run has hell to the other side ... mob runs to me fast as hell and will hit me a couple times before root finishes cast .. attempt rooting .. yes! worked! i got hit for 50% in 0.5 seconds of cast, but now it is rooted! heal, retarget, cast 1 dot .. meanwhile ukun dotted for 600/tick.
- root breaks after 1 second , i run as hell trying to reroot but dot got me to 50% already .. so no time to root nor heal ... evac or **DIE**

Tried 10 times, conclusion: I have no chance of soloing these mobs at 70.

So I invited a group, we had a mispull with partial wipe, necro 66 survived (of course!) and soloed the ukun and the kyv in camp killing them no problem solo.

Is there an unbalance here??? I THINK THERE IS!!! what are we doing in this game? why getting this frustration and feel powerless? why play this class? I am sure as uber droods it is still fun, but i will NEVER be uber. I cannot reroll either .. lol dont feel like restarting from lev 1. Would rather change game .. kinda like the ideas behind Darkfall .. at least its a new game.

Take an rs group with a druid(max aa, max focus, max ft, max gear, 10k mana) and swap him out for a level 65 cleric, bazaar geared, low aa. The cleric will outheal and the group can kill more, with less downtime.

And that is what most of the Druids who complain about our healing abilities are pointing out. Sure, you say you can heal fine in RSS. But why should we HAVE to be max level, max AA, max FT, max gear, etc, etc to heal even close to a bot-cleric 5 levels and 500 AA less than we are?

The druid aa tree is kinda of one of the more un-imaginative and least benefical of all the healing classes. They really need to revamp and add some useful aa's, because soe really dropped the ball on druid aa.

Yes! I look at the AA's of my alts and my friends. Some of them are pretty cool. We have cr*p.

Well I am currently trying to get chain leashes in RCOD for the burning affliction 5 quest item. There is a spot where 3 ukuns spawn. I am trying to solo them Did 10 attempts, died 4 times, instant evaced 6, killed none.

It usually goes like this:
- harmony as needed, wolf form and levi up.
- pull with mire thorns, reststed 90% of time with 380 wis.
- ukun starts running at soe speed.
- i run as hell and get as far as possible, i try resnaring. Managed to do once.
- if not sticks (another 90% of the time), evac or .. well **DIE**.
- if sticks, i run has hell to the other side ... mob runs to me fast as hell and will hit me a couple times before root finishes cast .. attempt rooting .. yes! worked! i got hit for 50% in 0.5 seconds of cast, but now it is rooted! heal, retarget, cast 1 dot .. meanwhile ukun dotted for 600/tick.
- root breaks after 1 second , i run as hell trying to reroot but dot got me to 50% already .. so no time to root nor heal ... evac or **DIE**

Tried 10 times, conclusion: I have no chance of soloing these mobs at 70.

So I invited a group, we had a mispull with partial wipe, necro 66 survived (of course!) and soloed the ukun and the kyv in camp killing them no problem solo.

Is there an unbalance here??? I THINK THERE IS!!! what are we doing in this game? why getting this frustration and feel powerless? why play this class? I am sure as uber droods it is still fun, but i will NEVER be uber. I cannot reroll either .. lol dont feel like restarting from lev 1. Would rather change game .. kinda like the ideas behind Darkfall .. at least its a new game.

That's why i load DoN Snare now... Mobs in OoW are really resistant to snare, that's why i never solo'd in OoW unless i was tanking.

As a druid you can cure yourself, however... yes root resists are common in OoW as well as them breaking fast.

You have to realize that the necro can FD... the mobs were probably dotted already and down in health.

It's easier to get the BA5 aug from DoN. And then you don't have to swap out a better item to have BA5.

It usually goes like this:
- harmony as needed, wolf form and levi up.
- pull with mire thorns, reststed 90% of time with 380 wis.
- ukun starts running at soe speed.
- i run as hell and get as far as possible, i try resnaring. Managed to do once.
- if not sticks (another 90% of the time), evac or .. well **DIE**.
- if sticks, i run has hell to the other side ... mob runs to me fast as hell and will hit me a couple times before root finishes cast .. attempt rooting .. yes! worked! i got hit for 50% in 0.5 seconds of cast, but now it is rooted! heal, retarget, cast 1 dot .. meanwhile ukun dotted for 600/tick.
- root breaks after 1 second , i run as hell trying to reroot but dot got me to 50% already .. so no time to root nor heal ... evac or **DIE**


You may be better off questing Serpent's Vines. Mire thorns is good but if they are really that resisant you will need the bigger check. Last I checked tho, wisdom total doesn't effect resist rate.

The Chaos Claws is resistable, you just need to buff your resists up when soloing those mobs. It should make it a bit easier for you.

You did not list which root, Earthen imo breaks alot more then Savage. As I have not done that perticular camp I can't say for sure what the best way to go about it is.

As for the necro, without knowig exactly what he did it is hard to say what he could solo them and you couldn't. Although I am strongly betting his -200 MR lifetaps had alot to do with it.

-Fenier

You use hungry vines at the beginning for the fact that your mob is probably at that point unslowed and hitting fast and hard..you save 20pct damage on the tank at that time and you also have the recourse effect that is causing the mob damage every time it hits your tank.

Thats what Hungry Vines was designed for. Yes there is a slight refresh time on Hungry vines that makes it so you cant have it on all the time..but 20pct less da damage plus damage shield makes it so your group takes less damage and also causes damage to the mobs hitting them.

If you dont want to use it fine, but thats how the druids in our guild use it..and it can be very helpful, and it is NO aggro if cast when the tank gets aggro.

Alot of the Trials is simply aggro mangement. Less people getting hit = easier to heal. Thus, being fimilar with the trial helps a ton.

Better tank, less heals, less aggro.

Trials like Efficiency require you to be smart, you don't typically go spamming CT in a trial where your suffering a mana drain AE and are already down 3500 mana from the second the trial begins

Better gear the more mana you have. when you have 5k mana -3500mana hurts a lot, when you hit 9-10k its doesn't hurt you as bad.

You may do things slight differantly, but its still possiable to win. What we have here is you clearly think druid's are underpowered. That's fine, its your opinion, but it does not make it truth.

no, the numbers i posted prove its the truth. With a few tweaks, druids are find dps wise. With good aa/focus/clickies, druids can unleash some nice dps. Its the healing side where druids are underpowered, and there are currently no aa, focuses, spells, effects that can make up the difference. If you stick to comparing that 1 blast heal vs cleric and shaman, we do ok. Add in the icheal we do well compared to shammy, but fall way behind clerics. You compare the entire healing toolkit, we are underpowered, no opinion, just the facts. Fact is, if they put in a cleric, with equvalent skill with lesser gear, lesser aa, lesser focuses the group would have been bbetter off. Fact is, a shammy with equivalent skill, same gear, same aa, same focuses, the group would have been better off.

We are not useless, we have our areas of expertise, we do good dps, but the fact is we are underpowered in the healing department. I have provided at least some evidence of such, so please kindly provide something more then a, i can heal in rs/mpg trial as proof. Because for everytime you say, I can heal XX, i will keep saying a cleric with the same skill and less levels/aa/focus will do it better.

And that is what most of the Druids who complain about our healing abilities are pointing out. Sure, you say you can heal fine in RSS. But why should we HAVE to be max level, max AA, max FT, max gear, etc, etc to heal even close to a bot-cleric 5 levels and 500 AA less than we are?

I can keep up a well geared tank for several mobs in rs, before running oom. While i said i can heal in rss, it required a lot of med breaks. If you add in a cleric, or simularly geared/aa/focused shammy, they can do a better job.
If you put in a average or under geared tank then people start dying, or i ran oom fast.

I agree with your point, and was just point out, that i can heal in rs for a few, but you add in a lesser geared/aa/focused cleric, they can do much better. If they added in a simulared outfitted shammy they would do better.


Yes! I look at the AA's of my alts and my friends. Some of them are pretty cool. We have cr*p.

Yeah whomever designed druid aa/spells kinda really messed up bad. The really bad thing is, soe refuses to come out and fix it, opting for a will fix this spell line in the next expansion. So while other classes get some new cool ability, we get a fix for something that should have been fixed before.

You use hungry vines at the beginning for the fact that your mob is probably at that point unslowed and hitting fast and hard..you save 20pct damage on the tank at that time and you also have the recourse effect that is causing the mob damage every time it hits your tank.

Thats what Hungry Vines was designed for. Yes there is a slight refresh time on Hungry vines that makes it so you cant have it on all the time..but 20pct less da damage plus damage shield makes it so your group takes less damage and also causes damage to the mobs hitting them.

If you dont want to use it fine, but thats how the druids in our guild use it..and it can be very helpful, and it is NO aggro if cast when the tank gets aggro.


Wouldn't a single target, 20% damage absorption, for 18s, 1600max, 45pt ds for 100 mana be better? take out the recast, snare, and make it effeceint to use. Right now, there are too many downsides, snareable, recast, high mana cost, to put this spell to any pratical use. You are better off just throwing in a normal heal then using this spell in just about any circumstance. While i am all for some crazy new spells, at least make it worthwhile to use.

I would love for it to be useful, but as it stand now, it adds nothing. I like the idea, but as it is, there is no situation where this spell would be any benefit over any existing spell we have.

Before i would say, screw it, put in on page 50 and forget about it. However we have so few unique abilities, and a majority of them suck something major. I used to just shrug off these useless spells, put them in the back of the book and forget about them. However its become clear soe sees this collection of useless spells as our unique abilities and evidently don't realize how bad they are. Soe needs to stop balancing us on 1 heal and a collection of useless spells.

It adds the ability to migrate damage on a group scale, increase their ds and snare the mob. The only condition is the mob is snarable. It's -100 check so it actually lands decently. It gives us a focus to do something that we do well and defends the group for 18 seconds. Granted it is not the best spell but it combines several things a druid does, as well as gives us a method of migrating damage.

Shamans have a equivlant spell based on what they do: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5400&source=Live

It AE Slows at -100 check, lasts for 18 seconds and migrates 50 percent for 1600 total. The requirement is the mob needs to be slowable.

In both cases, the respective spell is useful dispite its short duration if the correct factors are in play. For Druids, its best when multiple mobs which are snarable are attacking a group. This damages the mobs and protects the group. This does make the spell restrictive, but not useless. AE groups are a good example of when this is bennifcal. It I believe is designed so the druid can heal easier for 18 seconds.

Shamans need to have a group of mobs which are slowable, the spell is used to buy time to get a higher powered slow on the target(s) while protecting the group from melee. Again, this makes healing easier for 18 seconds and is best used when the mob(s) enter camp.

Both have very selective uses, but they DO have thier uses. Both are 500 mana to cast, and I believe both have a 30 second recycle. I personally use HV a fair amount, esp if I am trying to solo/tank something that hits a tad harder then I perfer it to.

As far as your comment about the better tank = less heals. I do not think we are on the same page.

Do you consider a better tank one that has more hp and ac, or one that has more skill in controling aggro.

I personally would rather have a slightly undergeared tank whom I could focus on, then be healing 5 other people becuase the warrior with hp can't keep the mob focused on him. The fact the tank controls who is hit, makes the trial easier, not the fact they have better gear.

As far as efficiency goes, The MPG Trials award groups with root in the 200 hp / mana range, if you have say, 5k mana, yea, its gonna hurt, becuase its supposed to. If your tank goes from 7k buffed to 3500 hp and your at 2k mana due to the ae, it may be a sign that this trial is not currently in the realm of being completed by your group in its present state.

However, you could still win if you had a group layout which maximized mana regen capabilities. Likewise, you would need to be more careful in what you do cast. It would just be *very* hard to endure all 4 waves + boss like that.

-Fenier

Let me start by addressing the 2nd part first.

Shamans have a equivlant spell based on what they do: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.ht...400&source=Live

It AE Slows at -100 check, lasts for 18 seconds and migrates 50 percent for 1600 total. The requirement is the mob needs to be slowable.


This spell makes sense for shammy, mobs need to be slowed as fast as possible, this gives the shaman the ability to slow multiple mobs for 18s, while slowing the mobs. The group vie ability gives the shammy and the tank protection while locking down aggro. IMHO this is a very good use and design for it, mainly because slow is important to get on the mob as fast as safely possible. While slowing the shammy may draw aggro. So this spell, ae slows (cutting down dps), provides damage absorption, and has a pratical use.

This does not apply to druids, snaring is not something that needs to happen immediately. So pre-snaring mobs to add in a snare, is beyond stupid. With slow, we want mobs slowed as fast as possible, we don't need mobs snared as fast as possible.

2nd, we don't want aggro, casting this when multiple mobs are incoming is a death sentence for the druid. In places where we can handle the mobs hitting on us, then a damage absorption buff isn't necessarry. We don't want the inital aggro on a unslowed mob on a multiple pull. Not only that, our version with the same mana cost, absorbs only 20% vs the shammy's 50%. (WTF! is up with that, simular spell, worse effect and worse damage absorption), and we get a nifty 45pt ds, that can damage the mob enough for it to summon, at least with the shammy version they can root it off the group. So now we have a pissed off mob aggro on the druid (who has less ac/mitagation) unslowed and summoning.

Again soe, shows how little they understand druids how 1 spell can be of a great use to one class, and total bs to another. Yet we are stuck with sucky, unimaginative aa's that do nothing for our class.


Both have very selective uses, but they DO have thier uses. Both are 500 mana to cast, and I believe both have a 30 second recycle. I personally use HV a fair amount, esp if I am trying to solo/tank something that hits a tad harder then I perfer it to.

Only one of them has a beneficial, effecient use. Give you a hint, its not the druid one.

As far as your comment about the better tank = less heals. I do not think we are on the same page.

Better geared tanks = more ac, less damage taken, less heals needed, less aggro.
Better aggro control tank = less pingpong, less damage taken, less heals needed, less aggro.
Better geared/aggro control tank = optium situation.

It's easier to get the BA5 aug from DoN. And then you don't have to swap out a better item to have BA5.

True but i wanted to have a removable item specialized for soloing/dotting.. with dotting focus oow aug ... i also dont want to touch the range slot, got a nice ft4 drop from MPG in there

neck item with BA5 + aug with stun resist 3% (but is this the best i can put? what would be better? gimme some hints please)+ dot efficiency 25%
facade of fright (+25% duration + aug mana regen 3 + dot haste 33%
don 25% magic damage focus
fire 25% fire focus off velketorin BP in wos
(of course RSS queen BP is better, but only a dream atm)
already got ICA3

that what is affordable for me and my guild atm .. would be pretty happy with this setting.

neck item with BA5 + aug with stun resist 3% (but is this the best i can put? what would be better? gimme some hints please)+ dot efficiency 25%
facade of fright (+25% duration + aug mana regen 3 + dot haste 33%
don 25% magic damage focus
fire 25% fire focus off velketorin BP in wos
(of course RSS queen BP is better, but only a dream atm)
already got ICA3

I believe the bazu hide tunic has a 30% fire focus ;).

Imho, don't worry about the BA5 aug/item. BA is only 20%, if you have a 30% fire focus like that on the tunic, just pick up the 25% magic focus (muram's anger) and you should be all set.

BA5 and fire/magic focuses stack .. at least this what I thought.

Must check.

BA5 and fire/magic focuses stack .. at least this what I thought.

Must check.

Higher damage percent takes over... so they don't "stack"


The only condition is the mob is snarable. It's -100 check so it actually lands decently. It gives us a focus to do something that we do well and defends the group for 18 seconds.

Actually i used this a bit ago and the Recourse worked even if the mob is NOT snareable. I will re-check to make sure.

Higher damage percent takes over... so they don't "stack"


*SIGH* u are right .. well goodby burning affliction if i get the Velkhetorin BP with 30% fire ;)

Ummm ****throwing BIG STONE in pond*****
what about asking SOE to scrap our class and ask to merge us with rangers, merging all spells and abilities?

I for one am getting frustrated and I am a patient man. (Playing since release, I would have to be). I would note that we have heard nothing since before the Fan Faire and a new expansion is coming out. It appears that the class balance issues always fall by the wayside when a new expansion is forthcoming. The problem is that it is unlikely new spells or abilities in Darkhollow are going to change class balance in a systematic way and then we are left with our "stance" problem unaddressed.

I am beginning to think Sony never intended to implement any of this. They laid it out for us to shut us up for a while. If we *think* they're really going to do something we will calm down and wait, like we always have. Meanwhile shaman get more and more powerful, and we fuss about our epic needing a secondary effect and they increase the range and say "that's good enough now shut up". Granted, it needed the range increased, but we're the only priest class without a heal effect on our epic. We are never going to get the tools needed to be decent healers without having a boatload of AA. We are never going to get the tools needed to be a respectable dps class.

Don't get me wrong-I love my druid. We can do SO many things. Just nothing well and I see that gap widening. I can pretty easily be replaced by a shaman for healing these days in most places. So who wants a druid when you can get shaman buffs and slows from a class that can recycle mana? I used to think we were the 2nd best healer in the game. Now I'm not so sure. Pallies heal faster and can tank. Shaman heal as well and have a very nice hot and can slow. Don't gimme this crap about how pallies are hybrid clerics. They have rez ability and a very fast heal AND can tank. No, they can't replace me as a healer. But they can damn sure replace me as backup healer.

I don't care so much about stances as I do about balancing our class better and making us more appealing for groups. I don't want to be forced to lose half my already mediocre dps in order to be 80% as good as a cleric (and that is IF we get a faster heal and a hot). I don't want to be forced to give up half my decent healing in order to be semi-respectable dps.

But then, I don't know why I bother. Sony doesn't listen. It's like that tv commercial where the wife asks, "Honey, does this make me look fat?" and the guy pretends he is listening and responds, "You betcha".

We can do SO many things. Just nothing well

I gotta disagree with this one Dari.
We do EVERYTHING well. We simply do nothing exceptionally. ( My opinion of course )

I would love to be merged with rangers .. throwing spells, or secondary tank on mobs which resist spells .. OOM ? no problem, switch to arrows.
Kiting? can do again, can stand up some damage when things get rough to cast snare/root.
The 2 classes were always very close.. and merging would make a fun class i think.
I think this is a good idea. SOE DO SOMETHING!

If I wanted to fire arrows ever, I would have made a class capable of using a bow.

Also, depending on which weapons/items you pick up, you can both heal and damage while having exactly no mana.

-Fenier

Meanwhile shaman get more and more powerful

What have shamans gotten recently which has made then more and more powerful?

we fuss about our epic needing a secondary effect and they increase the range

We are also the only priest epic which effects anyone outside of our group. While this sucks when your looking at it on a group only basis, it gains drastic advantage in a raid situation.

We are never going to get the tools needed to be decent healers without having a boatload of AA.

I think, and have many who would agree, that druids already heal decently. Stellar like a cleric? No. Decently? Yes. Shamans are in the same boat as us AA wise, and a cleric who has no levels of Adept or Gift will have issues healing anything which hits hard for extended durations. We are not the only priest class to require decent amounts of aa to heal well in the late game.

We are never going to get the tools needed to be a respectable dps class.

We can apply DoTs to Magic (-100 MR) and Fire (which we can Debuff by 72 with HoR).

We can deal damage with Fire Nukes, Cold Nukes and Magic (AEs, Stuns). based on parses I have read here, and my own experiances we deal damage just fine - and in a wide array of methods. If comparing mana ratios, we're probly not as effective as the main class, but we still deal damage exceptionally well due to our ability to deal it in so many differant ways.

We can do SO many things. Just nothing well and I see that gap widening. I can pretty easily be replaced by a shaman for healing these days in most places. So who wants a druid when you can get shaman buffs and slows from a class that can recycle mana?

Depending on the place, that may be true. Shaman healing is effected to large degree by the percentage slow they land on the mob. If a mob migrates heavily, or is immune. It is possiable for the dps from the mob to exceed the healing capicaty of the HoT and Mending Line. This is where a druid's larger direct heals may be perfered.

Shamans have more in the way of buffs, it has always been like that. I tend to view the priests by:

Clerics: Defensive Priests
Shamans: Weaken Enemies, Strengthen Group
Druids: Offensive Priests, rapid movement.

While each class gets doses of the others to varying degrees, that is more or less how they function. A Shaman can weaken the enemy drastically, but a druid can kill it directly in quicker time with their nukes - as a example.

I used to think we were the 2nd best healer in the game. Now I'm not so sure. Pallies heal faster and can tank. Shaman heal as well and have a very nice hot and can slow. Don't gimme this crap about how pallies are hybrid clerics. They have rez ability and a very fast heal AND can tank. No, they can't replace me as a healer. But they can damn sure replace me as backup healer.

K, first off: Paladins heal faster then clerics. Their cast time is 1 second. its not effected by spelll haste and its 3/4ths of a second faster then Remedy. But for sake of comparison we'll take a look at Light of Piety (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5289&source=Live)

The spell heals for 1234, 1 Second Cast time, Recast time of 5 seconds, and range of 100, it costs 487 mana giving it a ratio of 2.5 hp healed per mana spent. The spell level is 68.

Mana wise, the closest spell we get is Nature's Touch. Which heals for 1491, 3.75 second cast time (reducable to 2.3 with haste and focus), Recast of 2.25, Range of 200, and costs 457 mana for a ratio of 3.27 hp healed per mana spent. The spell is level 60.

Obvious differances: Paladin heal casts 2.75 seconds faster, heals 257 less, takes twice as long to recycle and has half the range. They get is 8 levels later.

However, as we all know, we get CT at 68, and that is a much better heal, just slightly longer cast time.

Paladins highest direct heal is http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5282&source=Live the spell is roughly equivlant to SI, but heals less HP for the mana used. You will note the cast time is 3.75 seconds, the same as ours and the cleric's light line.

Their HoT is nearly 700 mana for a 585 / tick heal.

Thus, while they can heal in a vast array of ways, they do not do it well. They can backup heal but would be hard pressed to heal a group for any duration of time as well as tank the mob. They are totally great for saving people with Light and LoH but they are not ment to be primary healers and that shows when you actually look at their spells. Finally if the paladin is the groups tank, they are apt to be using mana on mataining aggro to some degree.


I don't care so much about stances as I do about balancing our class better and making us more appealing for groups.


I actually think our class is decently balanced, and alot of the lack of groups is player basis.

I don't want to be forced to lose half my already mediocre dps in order to be 80% as good as a cleric (and that is IF we get a faster heal and a hot). I don't want to be forced to give up half my decent healing in order to be semi-respectable dps.

I strongly disagree with the claim we need a HoT and Quicker Heal. If I wanted to be a cleric, I would have created one. With item focus our heals only take 3/4ths of a second longer to cast then PR. Since your talking factions of a second, I would venture that player awareness and reaction time is more important then a slightly faster heal.

-Feinier

Let me start by saying I love playing my druid. It is my only toon I have leveled up above 35 and enjoy what he can do. That being said, I do not think the druid is underpowered when it comes to DPS. I do not feel the druid is going to be replaced when it comes to healing, limited as we are, we have gotten by. The main limitation IMO of most druids is themselves. Close mindedness, trying to do things like other classes is not the idea behind applying the druid. Would I like to be able to heal anywhere that a cleric can, sure, would I like to sustain DPS like a mage, sure. But I look at the druid as one of the few classes that can do both effectively. However, we all occasionally need to take a moment, pause, step back, and view the bigger picture. If the developers came to you, and said, we will give you better heals, and group heals, and faster heals and HoTs, but it would require you to give up something in return, what would that be. I would LOVE to have a group heal but not at a cost to reducing my nukes to where they are useless for dps. Everyone seems to think that we need this and need that and should get upgrades to everything we have so that we can do the same as others. Let us not try and be like the others, let us be our own entity. And for the person who wants to merge with rangers, please, seek professional help.

Some people have posted some great ideas and tips. The new druid channels can be used to learn from each other, as these boards have, to show each other there is maybe something to improve on without new spells or new aa. For instance, DPS, mix a dot in with dds, or an AoE to increase damage. Learn tricks to increase your dps, ways to better improve healing skills. Work with the tanks and other people you group with to maximize your efficiency. Druids have one of the larger spellbooks if I am not mistaken, but you rarely find a druid who uses all of them. Just because you or your friend doesnt you a particular spell doesn't mean a druid on another server doesn't. They may love the spell and its effects and use it all the time.

Last I checked tho, wisdom total doesn't effect resist rate.

I have to disagree. Now i rased wis to 400 and can solo MPG dragorns with relative ease. Snare land and root holds decently. On wos murkies i open with root as they VERY rarely get free now.
So wis counts against resists, like in the good old times. I strongly recommend raising it to max as early as possible. If u want to solo something useful at 70, its a must.

I have to disagree. Now i rased wis to 400 and can solo MPG dragorns with relative ease. Snare land and root holds decently. On wos murkies i open with root as they VERY rarely get free now.
So wis counts against resists, like in the good old times. I strongly recommend raising it to max as early as possible. If u want to solo something useful at 70, its a must.

J-boots are slower, Fungi Tunics are going to be no drop, Hill Giants drop less money... What the hell are you on/talking about?

can say one thing here...
Where the F*** Are My Stances??

I have to disagree. Now i rased wis to 400 and can solo MPG dragorns with relative ease. Snare land and root holds decently. On wos murkies i open with root as they VERY rarely get free now.
So wis counts against resists, like in the good old times. I strongly recommend raising it to max as early as possible. If u want to solo something useful at 70, its a must.

Huh ? :confused: :smoke:

What have shamans gotten recently which has made then more and more powerful?

Spirit of the Leopard and Spirit of The Panther( DoN Spells ) are a good deal of DPS and have increased shaman desirability, even after the nerf to its proc rate.

For those unfamilliar with it, it's a castable proc buff. The target ( Pets or anyone who melees ) then procs for 300 or 400 ( depending on which spell ).

When it first came out it was stupid busted and when cast on pets did quite large DPS. Even booboo could dish out mad damage with it. It has since been nerfed ( or more realistically, retuned to work as intended ) however still does a more than valuable amount of proccing.

The druids got a snare from DoN. While I do LOVE the new snare it obviously did not alter druid grouping desirability. I am not personally bothered by this ( I even play a shaman alt ) ,but I think its safe to say that shaman did get a "relative" increase in grouping desirability from this.

They also recently, as did enchanters and beastlords, get a new slow when we got, upgraded fear.

I would like to see an upgrade to the Pureblood spell if possible. It's like over 10 levels and 3 expansions old and requires 2-3 casts to remove effects on most high end encounters.

They also recently, as did enchanters and beastlords, get a new slow when we got, upgraded fear.

It slow was a change in resist check, not in the amount slowed.

Change in the resist check means slowing it faster/easier/more often. That is an improvement/upgrade. We had to give up our DoN spells to get that for our snare. They got it in addition to their DoN spell. It is an upgrade to them, and was just mentioning it to go along with the way people would think that the shaman's got an upgrade recently.

Now i rased wis to 400 and can solo MPG dragorns with relative ease. Snare land and root holds decently. On wos murkies i open with root as they VERY rarely get free now.
So wis counts against resists, like in the good old times. I strongly recommend raising it to max as early as possible. If u want to solo something useful at 70, its a must.

J-boots are slower, Fungi Tunics are going to be no drop, Hill Giants drop less money... What the hell are you on/talking about?

Not sure what u talking about ... I meant soloing non-greenies at lev 70 .. some xp. Not talking about items. That i lost ANY hope LOOONG time ago, since Elysians lol, didnt even think about them.

Anyway my perception is that root holds a hell of a lot better with 400 wis than 305 .. and snares stick better. So some mobs in OOW lev 66-69 are soloable at 400 wis,while the weren't at 305. This was my point... simple enough?

If I wanted to fire arrows ever, I would have made a class capable of using a bow.

Also, depending on which weapons/items you pick up, you can both heal and damage while having exactly no mana.

-Fenier
Weapons yes ... i can deal about 35 damage/sec meleeing with epic and using the clickie dots and our lovely pet :) Man i love meleeing .. but i must admit i feel i am wasting med time doing it.. there is a very nice weap in bazaar procing 750 but costs a HUMONGOUS amount of money .. out of reach atm.
About the healing .. i saw once a link on a clickie primary slot item.. only accessible by raiding guilds i guess. Not my league.

Now i rased wis to 400 and can solo MPG dragorns with relative ease. Snare land and root holds decently. On wos murkies i open with root as they VERY rarely get free now.
So wis counts against resists, like in the good old times. I strongly recommend raising it to max as early as possible. If u want to solo something useful at 70, its a must.



Not sure what u talking about ... I meant soloing non-greenies at lev 70 .. some xp. Not talking about items. That i lost ANY hope LOOONG time ago, since Elysians lol, didnt even think about them.

Anyway my perception is that root holds a hell of a lot better with 400 wis than 305 .. and snares stick better. So some mobs in OOW lev 66-69 are soloable at 400 wis,while the weren't at 305. This was my point... simple enough?

What i said implied that you are an insane idiot, all the things I said have been said be people for over 5 years. WHAT YOU SAID MAKES NO SENSE WHAT SO FREAKIN EVER.

Well I'll admit I didn't read most of this thread, but I'll try to add some constructive comments that hopefully haven't been hashed out already.

1. Healing Toolkit.
Completely, 100% agree here. And it's really not just about power. It's about being able to play the game. If we are to work in a healing role, casting one spell ad nauseum is not fun gameplay. They don't necessarily need to give us other classes' heals . . they could give us something fancy and new like the reactive heals from EQ2. But we need *something* so that being group healer doesn't consist of tapping the same button for an hour or two until we get tired of it and log out.

That and we need number increases too, although it's hard to say much about that until we see what stances actually do. Getting stances live should be priority one as far as druids are concerned.

2. 1.5 and 2.0 Epic Effect (currently being evaluated)

- remains underpowered/unbalanced with no healing effect (which should exist in addition to the current effect, as with the other priest epic effects)
Honestly, the cast range is a minor irritation at best . . I find it very rarely to be an issue (in fact I didn't even know about it until I read it on the eqlive forums and went and tested it).

To those who say our effect is not underpowered, look at the shaman epic effect. Our effect is to casters what the shaman effect is to melee, except theirs also comes with a group HoT. The cleric one mimics an AA ability, and comes with a group HoT. Adding a group HoT recourse to ours is perfectly in line. Yes, our epic effect is good now. But I would argue that the effects on the other two priest epics have an edge due to the additional group HoT.

3. Glacier Breath and Eci: (currently being evaluated)
This was dumb when it first came out with PoP and it's still dumb today . . don't know why it hasn't been fixed (sorry . . "retuned") yet.

Also with regards to Hand of Ro type debuffs, I would like some dev insight on what they are intended to do. If they are intended to be FR debuffs mainly, then they work reasonably well as is. If they are intended to reduce mob dps with the attack debuff, then the original hand of ro worked well in PoP, but the upgrades are very much lacking in modern content and need a serious boost. If they are intended to increase melee dps via AC debuff . . well it is my opinion that they have never worked well and need a fundamental retune.

5. Charm issues (currently being evaluated)
Devs can very specifically keep track of the stats for monsters we are allowed to charm (max hit, attack, hps, etc.) by setting or not setting the animal flag. There is really no reason that the level cap on our charms shouldn't be the same as the equivalent level enchanter level cap, imo.

6. Harmony issues (currently being evaluated)
Honestly I am ok with our harmony spells the way they are now. But we do need lots of outdoor zones for them to be useful. Do you notice how the places where these spells could be really useful (MPG, Thundercrest, etc.) are places where the majority of the time warriors can single pull? If we are going to continue to get entirely indoor expansions (LDoN, and it sounds like DoDH too), then devs really need to rethink the outdoor restriction imo.

But honestly, I'd rather they just give us more outdoor zones. PoP with 3/4 of the highest XP zones being outdoor was great.

7. Snare issues (currently being evaluated)
Honestly ensnare is something I only use for soloing any more. The DoN low resist snare is so much more useful for grouping. Entrap would be a toy (unless we get a low-resist version of entrap, then that would be awesome), and I'm not going to argue for it.

Especially with serpent vines now, our snaring is pretty good. Honestly I'd like to see this one off the list if we can think of something else.

8. More shape changing forms and ideally special abilities for each (currently being evaluated)
Some people have suggested this be associated with stances, which might be nice, but the problem is that it throws character customization out the window. I guess I've never really been "in" to shapechanging much.

9. Wolf form problems (currently being evaluated)
I don't really know what the "problem" is.

I haven't used wolf form for myself since I got mask of the hunter years ago. Now if the atk buff wolf form could go through a similar evolution that would be great. A long term alternative to FA/champion, with movement buff instead of stat buff. Could be really nice.

The vast majority of meleers I've talked to don't want wolf form even when the atk buff is available (i.e. no shaman in group) because of the irritating change in point of view and swaying attack motion. Honestly, I didn't like it much either and back when I did hunt with form of the howler on I spent most of my time in 3rd person.

10. Improved run speed (currently being evaluated)
When 90%+ of players over 50 already have innately as good as we can cast for indoors, I have to wonder if that spell was really worth buying.

And for a few more AA they can have close to what we can do outdoors, very close in non-lev zones. I think we need to be upgraded to at least 55% indoors (or more if DoDH has new run AAs . . our most recent movement buff spells need to always stay ahead of AA-based runspeed) and about 80% outdoors.

What i said implied that you are an insane idiot
No comment .. I think people like you were out of date at the dawn of humanity .. are u sure you inherited human genes or gorilla's ? :) Gratuitous insulting will get u nowere, nor make your point stronger. I simply said I disagreed with you and your reaction is totally out of proportion .. you seem to be the kind that kills people because they have different ideas... Oh no sorry you dont have ideas .. you just repeat endlessly and kill for some Holy Book that someone else wrote.

all the things I said have been said be people for over 5 years.
Anyway people have been saying so many wrong things for 5 years: the "Ipse dixit" approach is gone with Galileo and the Aristothelian school about in year 1500. Without a parsing what i say is a (motivated) perception, yours is plain BS. Post data, else shut up. I was trying to be helpful, you are just a frustrated poor being. Try to think with your head for once, mybe it will work.

This is uninteresting and boring, so if you intend to ridiculize yourself even more i will not continue this useless spamming of an otherwise interesting discussion. If you dont understand, in simpler words: i will not reply to you any more.
Best regards,Dorda

Stuff like the recent messages in this thread is part of the reason we cannot seem to progress with the "vision". We can't even agree on what that vision should be, much less how to get there. Not that Sony *really* listens anyway, but for the sake of argument pretend they do.

Stances-I think a +25% for a -25% is livable (50% is just SO not right). I still disagree with the fact that we have to give up our versatility to be a viable group member. Yup, we can choose to NOT take a stance, but then that leaves us right where we are today: decent healer IF we have the gear and AA (we'll leave skill out of this for now, Fen :P ) and semi decent dps. We're still last choice if the group can't find a cleric and if the group needs dps they're more likely to get a rogue, ranger for that dps instead of us. Hell, they don't even need us as evacer anymore with all the potions and the summoning alters. I remember those times when they'd look for a druid or wizard just for the evac and port out utility.

Debuffs-I still can't believe after all this time we haven't seen improvements to our debuff lines. How hard is that? How unbalancing? Come on, Sony, pull your head out of your ass long enough to do THAT at least. Our CR debuff line is such a total waste of a spell. Let's make the ac and atk debuff MEAN something and for pity's sake.. make the thing land instead of being resisted so much?

Heals-take that cap off our CH. You don't have to give us a better CH (since you've made it clear you don't intend to anyway), but at least let our focus work its magic and take the cap off so I can heal more effectively at this level? I'd love a HoT. I really really really would. Don't care so much about a group heal, but a HoT would be great. Alternatively, give us AA to greatly reduce recast on SoTW/SoTG.

Epic-give us a secondary heal effect like the other priest classes get. I'm beginning to feel like the red-headed stepchild.

None of these is imbalancing.

well said Dari .. i agree totally. This is the right attitude .. SOE do something, but do it quick. AND if you BALANCE us and you give us anything, you DONT need to nerf us in other areas .. we are nerfed into oblivion ALREADY.

I totally see how giving us the following has nerfed us:

Adding Healing Water at 44 when before it was 29-51 with no new heal.
Lowering Superior Healing from 53 to 51
Adding Chorloblast at 55
Adding Nature's Touch at 60
Adding Tunare's Renewal At 58
Removing the innate resist checks verus rains like Tempest Wind.
Giving us Pureblood at 51
Making our snares low resist check
Removing Snare from Epic 1.0 and making it -100 MR check.
Creating a High Damage, Low Duration DoT with the Vengance Line
Making a single target version of Protection of the Glades
Increasing the drop rate of several druid spells, including Regrowth of the Grove
Increasing the 1.5 effect from 5 percent to 30 percent
Removing the Rune portion of Wrath of the Wild.
Reducing the reuse time of Spirit of the Wood/Grove from 22 to 15 minutes

No comment .. I think people like you were out of date at the dawn of humanity .. are u sure you inherited human genes or gorilla's ? :) Gratuitous insulting will get u nowere, nor make your point stronger. I simply said I disagreed with you and your reaction is totally out of proportion .. you seem to be the kind that kills people because they have different ideas... Oh no sorry you dont have ideas .. you just repeat endlessly and kill for some Holy Book that someone else wrote.


Anyway people have been saying so many wrong things for 5 years: the "Ipse dixit" approach is gone with Galileo and the Aristothelian school about in year 1500. Without a parsing what i say is a (motivated) perception, yours is plain BS. Post data, else shut up. I was trying to be helpful, you are just a frustrated poor being. Try to think with your head for once, mybe it will work.

This is uninteresting and boring, so if you intend to ridiculize yourself even more i will not continue this useless spamming of an otherwise interesting discussion. If you dont understand, in simpler words: i will not reply to you any more.
Best regards,Dorda

Yeah, that still doesn't change the fact that YOU'RE AN IDIOT. The only thing that affects resist rates are resists & the mob's level, your level, and the spells level and the only that affects the duration of root is the RNG.

>>Adding Healing Water at 44 when before it was 29-51 with no new heal.
>>Lowering Superior Healing from 53 to 51
>>Adding Chorloblast at 55
>>Adding Nature's Touch at 60
>>Adding Tunare's Renewal At 58

Similar to Shaman and Cleric, with slightly differences and different names.

>>Removing the innate resist checks verus rains like Tempest Wind.

Similar to Wizards / Mages.

>>Giving us Pureblood at 51

Similar to Bard, Shaman and Cleric?

>>Making our snares low resist check

You talk about DoN spells? Similar to Ranger?

>>Removing Snare from Epic 1.0 and making it -100 MR check.

Yeah, big deal. But you are right, now i can land an 55 dmg / tic dot for free, with an casttime of what? 9 seconds? Last time i used epic was like 3 years ago.

>>Creating a High Damage, Low Duration DoT with the Vengance Line

Similar to irc, Shamans and Necros.

>>Making a single target version of Protection of the Glades

Similar to Focus/Aegolism?

>>Increasing the drop rate of several druid spells, including Regrowth of the Grove

Similar to EVERY Kunark Spell, for EVERY class.

>>Increasing the 1.5 effect from 5 percent to 30 percent

Because the epic effect was just not inline with every other epic effect?


>>Removing the Rune portion of Wrath of the Wild.

Because of an stacking exploit


>>Reducing the reuse time of Spirit of the Wood/Grove from 22 to 15 minutes

To bring it inline with Paragon of Spirit and the Cleric Healing AA (Both at 15 minutes since beginning).



90% of your points, were just general fixes, introduces of new spelllines for all/several classes.

I totally see how giving us the following has nerfed us:

Adding Healing Water at 44 when before it was 29-51 with no new heal.
Lowering Superior Healing from 53 to 51
Adding Chorloblast at 55
Adding Nature's Touch at 60
Adding Tunare's Renewal At 58
Removing the innate resist checks verus rains like Tempest Wind.
Giving us Pureblood at 51
Making our snares low resist check
Removing Snare from Epic 1.0 and making it -100 MR check.
Creating a High Damage, Low Duration DoT with the Vengance Line
Making a single target version of Protection of the Glades
Increasing the drop rate of several druid spells, including Regrowth of the Grove
Increasing the 1.5 effect from 5 percent to 30 percent
Removing the Rune portion of Wrath of the Wild.
Reducing the reuse time of Spirit of the Wood/Grove from 22 to 15 minutes

Wow, some of this stuff is just so dumb, I don't know where to start.

Retard Highway inc, Matren is the driver!

btw Dorda, you are a total idiot, your wisdom doesn't change your resists, I could take off every piece of gear I have and still land a snare in mpg without a resist, it doesn't change a god fricken thing.

The point I was trying to make is - they do not ignore us. They may not give us exactly what some people want, but we are not ignored nor excluded from changes simply becuase we are druids.

Nature's Touch was added to give us a heal similar to Torpar, Shamans got no equivlant heal.

Cholroblast was given to both Druids and Shamans.

Renewals where given to both Druids and Shamans, although the Druid version is clearly superior to the shaman one.

They didn't HAVE to adjust the rains when they rediid the nukes. They did tho, they made them apply to ours as well as Wizards and Mages. This increased dps due to the fact the spell was no longer so resisted it became viable. They also, if I recall, adjusted the mana cost of Tempest Wind.

As far as Pureblood goes, Clerics and Shamans already had decent cures for both, Shamans had Disinfecting Aura and Clerics had several multicures available. We had none, and while they benifited as much as we did from the LoY cures, it was a drastic power increase to us in how we cure people.

We did indeed share the low resist snares with Rangers but that didn't nerf us in the least, we both gained.

Back when the Epic 1.0 change went live People where /shock actually still using it. It was a good change back then when Velious was still endgame and Sebilis was the exp spot.

DoTs - Shamans and Necros both got versions, but your compeletly overlooking the fact we where included in that change.

Wrath of the Wild had been adjusted for that exploit along time ago. The recent change was becuase they added a Max Number of Hits line to the spdat file. The new Mage Omens DS functions in the exact same way.

The 1.5 was clearly underpowered, and they fixed it.

We may not get class specfic changes most of the time, but we sure gain from the sweeping changes. In each case, reguardless of if another class got it, it increase our power in a given area. You can not call those nerfs.

-Fenier

They ALSO gan get aggro easily from an uber 70 war with JUST 3 DOTS!! that's just 250 dps .. ridiculous.

No way you take easy agro from an good equipped lv 70 war.

(Time BP or Qvic Gloves/ Epic 1.5/2.0 with 2 agro augs/Furious Bash V+ shield or an weapon like Brutish Blade of Balance with Agro aug on secondary).

Not with 3 dots.

There were times, where War's were unable to hold agro. The times are gone.
Our warrior atleast, i have a hard time to outagro them. Even with stacking dots and chainnuking. Not after the first few procs they get on an mob.

Wow, some of this stuff is just so dumb, I don't know where to start.

Becuase .. you have no basis for agruement?

We are far from ignored like some people think.

I will state flat out alotof those are sweeping changes, but we still gained from them, if you have a example of where those changes hurt the druid class as a whole, I would love to hear it.

-Fenier

The point I was trying to make is - they do not ignore us. They may not give us exactly what some people want, but we are not ignored nor excluded from changes simply becuase we are druids.

Nature's Touch was added to give us a heal similar to Torpar, Shamans got no equivlant heal.

Cholroblast was given to both Druids and Shamans.

We did indeed share the low resist snares with Rangers but that didn't nerf us in the least, we both gained.

Back when the Epic 1.0 change went live People where /shock actually still using it. It was a good change back then when Velious was still endgame and Sebilis was the exp spot.

DoTs - Shamans and Necros both got versions, but your compeletly overlooking the fact we where included in that change.

Wrath of the Wild had been adjusted for that exploit along time ago. The recent change was becuase they added a Max Number of Hits line to the spdat file. The new Mage Omens DS functions in the exact same way.

The 1.5 was clearly underpowered, and they fixed it.

We may not get class specfic changes most of the time, but we sure gain from the sweeping changes. In each case, reguardless of if another class got it, it increase our power in a given area. You can not call those nerfs.

-Fenier

Becuase .. you have no basis for agruement?

We are far from ignored like some people think.

I will state flat out alotof those are sweeping changes, but we still gained from them, if you have a example of where those changes hurt the druid class as a whole, I would love to hear it.

-Fenier

No, because you are a blithering retard.

1. Nature's Touch is not an equivalent to Topor because it is a straight heal, not a HoT. It was added because it was one of the new heals for SoL.

2. Yes the 1.0 was changed, FOUR YEARS AGO WHEN THIS ARGUEMENT MEANT HALF OF A F***.

3. Yes, 1.5/2.0 was underpowered (still is), BUT IT DIDNT WORK FOR FOUR F***ING MONTHS, ***AT ALL***

Druids ain't gained **** in the HERE AND NOW, stuff that changed game content FOUR YEARS AGO does NOTHING for druids today.

No one is disputing that druids benefitted from those changes Fenier. However, what it appears the main thought behind posts is that Yes we benefited, but we did not benefit as much as another class or we benefited the same as others thus we remain where we are in the underpowered/overpowered scale. Shamans and clerics already had a leg up on cures. Shaman got group version, we got single. I don't know about you Fen, but I was well beyond some of those changes, like the new spells and spell level changes before they were implamented and at the high end game, those changes do not affect me much if at all. Bringing SOTW/SOTG in line with Paragon and Cel Regen/Renewal is an exception in that we benefited when no one else did, but it was only to bring us in line with the others making us even.

No, because you are a blithering retard.

1. Nature's Touch is not an equivalent to Topor because it is a straight heal, not a HoT. It was added because it was one of the new heals for SoL.

2. Yes the 1.0 was changed, FOUR YEARS AGO WHEN THIS ARGUEMENT MEANT HALF OF A F***.

3. Yes, 1.5/2.0 was underpowered (still is), BUT IT DIDNT WORK FOR FOUR F***ING MONTHS, ***AT ALL***

Druids ain't gained **** in the HERE AND NOW, stuff that changed game content FOUR YEARS AGO does NOTHING for druids today.

Nature's Touch is a straight heal. If you look, Shamans have no direct heal at level 60. Just thier HoT. Nature's Touch was added in Luclin, but during, hence it being sold in EC and not Shadowhaven. It was placed in our spellline to even out the healing power of the shaman.

The changes to the 1.0 are still important dispite the weapons aged status. Becuase of they removed the snare componant, it now lands on mob which are immune to changes in runspeed - which if I recall, was a major reason for the change in the first place.

I am not sure I would agree that the 1.5 is still underpowered. I was 3rd on my server to complete the 1.5 and I actually endured all of the months which came after in which the click didn't work. I am glad they fixed it and I am happy with its current form.

Finally, I do not see what you gain by insulting me, but if it makes you feel better - by all means.

-Fenier

No one is disputing that druids benefitted from those changes Fenier. However, what it appears the main thought behind posts is that Yes we benefited, but we did not benefit as much as another class or we benefited the same as others thus we remain where we are in the underpowered/overpowered scale.

The point I was attempting to make - and still am, is that we are not completly neglected as a class.

Shamans and clerics already had a leg up on cures. Shaman got group version, we got single.

Shamans actually orginally got Pureblood as well, it wasnt until it was pointed out to the devs they had a better version of Pureblood from Luclin that they changed the quest result for shamans to Blood of Nadox.

I don't know about you Fen, but I was well beyond some of those changes, like the new spells and spell level changes before they were implamented and at the high end game, those changes do not affect me much if at all.

This bothers me somewhat. I was to far advanced to benifet from the Healing Water spell. I was 60 (max level) at the time when Nature's Touch/Tunare's Renewal and Chorloblast where added. So I did infact gain there. It is a common perception however it would seem, that if it doesn't give a direct boost to someone at their current stage in progression, the change is bad. This logic is flawed. I do however think that unless you experacted the enviroment prior to the changes it would be easy to overlook what was wrong about it.

I remember healing Sol B King Camp with Greater Healing (270 HP becuase the changes to Healing where not done yet). When I saw the addition of Healing Water in LoY I was happy for druids which where that level. I recongized that Pureblood was the best cure we got (still is) and I obtained it.

Regrowth of the Grove was stupid rare. You where more apt to get a Velious BP then see that spell drop in most cases. When they increased the drop rate of that spell, amoung others it was a good thing for the game.

Without knowing what came before I can totally see how these changes may seem really minor to people. Old School Druids will remember and be like wow that sucked.

The Druid Class of today, can now buff better, heal better, deal more damage with nukes etc then when I was leveling to 60 4 years ago. In some ways that makes me a bit sad - but at the same time I know the Class as a whole is far more consistant now then it ever was prior.

Bringing SOTW/SOTG in line with Paragon and Cel Regen/Renewal is an exception in that we benefited when no one else did, but it was only to bring us in line with the others making us even.

I agree here, but the key is - at least they DID it.

The Class has evolved drastically over the past few years. Clerics where given increases to soloing (Hammers, Bash, Marks, etc) and this was also good. We got better heal spells / new heal spells to fill in gaps in our progression where we where clearly not able to heal as decently as we should have been able to.

It does balance out for the most part but it requires looking at the bigger picture, one which covers nearly 6 years of playing.

Eci/GB is resisted way to much. I agree there. The spell needs major reworking. The Druid Class however, I feel is decently balanced. It does however require skill to play well, acceptance of short comings and embracing of strengths is nessercary to do well. That is the differance between a Druid and a Dr00d.

-Fenier

The Druid Class of today, can now buff better, heal better, deal more damage with nukes etc then when I was leveling to 60 4 years ago

This makes me so happy, so maybe in 4 years we will finally get fixed for todays content. Yay!

Nature's Touch is a straight heal. If you look, Shamans have no direct heal at level 60. Just thier HoT. Nature's Touch was added in Luclin, but during, hence it being sold in EC and not Shadowhaven. It was placed in our spellline to even out the healing power of the shaman.

So where's out tool at 70, to even out the healing power of the shaman. I am glad they are finally getting around to fixing the 1-60 game, but its wasted effort. There are no major influxes of newbies. Even the casuals have hit 65+ now, and while the druid that starts today would be better off, the rest of us who have been max level continue to suffer. I don't want to wait 4 yrs to get balanced for todays content.


The changes to the 1.0 are still important dispite the weapons aged status. Becuase of they removed the snare componant, it now lands on mob which are immune to changes in runspeed - which if I recall, was a major reason for the change in the first place.

Great!, now get them to reduce the cast time to 3-5s.


[QUOTE]I am not sure I would agree that the 1.5 is still underpowered. I was 3rd on my server to complete the 1.5 and I actually endured all of the months which came after in which the click didn't work. I am glad they fixed it and I am happy with its current form.[QUOTE]

Shrug, i might have completed my 1.5 if it had a decent effect. Least it is somewhat usuable, not usable enough for me to waste my time completing it, but at least others can use it. Although it might have a nice clicky toy, compared to other classes it is underpowered.

A druid without epic is just as effective as a druid with epic.
A cleric with epic is more effective then a cleric without epic.
A shaman with epic is more effective then a shaman without epic.

The druids epic adds little if anything to the class. It helps more in raids, but in a single group setting, the impact is neglibable at best.

We have a real lively discussion/debate going on here and its full of wonderful information and views, however it is beginning to digress into flames.

Lets all please try and keep it courteous and discuss the issues rather than attack each other.

Yeah, that still doesn't change the fact that YOU'RE AN IDIOT. The only thing that affects resist rates are resists & the mob's level, your level, and the spells level and the only that affects the duration of root is the RNG.
btw Dorda, you are a total idiot, your wisdom doesn't change your resists, I could take off every piece of gear I have and still land a snare in mpg without a resist, it doesn't change a god fricken thing.

Ignoring the kind comments from these people, I have 2 questions:
1) what is RNG supposed to affect root holding? that important
2) did you try to root MPG dragorns naked? try .. i'll try as well.

Ignoring the kind comments from these people, I have 2 questions:
1) what is RNG supposed to affect root holding? that important
2) did you try to root MPG dragorns naked? try .. i'll try as well.

Sorry Dorda the only way I'm going to belive WIS affects resists is with proper parsing and maybe pie charts :behindcom

hmm pieeeee

I would have to say that I agree the epic needs changing the click helps for nukes but not having the HoT component of the cleric/shaman version puts ours subpar to theirs. The whole point of class re-envisioning is to make ALL class types equal. They did great with tanks. Tanks right now are pretty much interchangeable in ANY group situation. The only place where a warrior has a distinct advantage over paladins or sk's is in raid content, and that's mostly just due to the fact that their defensive lasts longer than the SK pally DoN versions.

I dont agree that we should be onpar with clerics but we do need to do better than we are currently. The stance issue I have mixed feelings on but I tend to lean more against than for. Our VERSATILITY is our MAIN advantage though it seems to be only a small one since most groups seek people for SPECIFIC slots rather than an all around roll like ours.

I can heal in any situation but I am also in a guild that raids Anguish and similar content. I would have to agree that for a druid who does not have that type of support they are extremely undertooled.

We really need a "tool" not a "stance" that brings us more in-line with shaman or clerics. Whether it be a more potent type of heal spellline or a dps-debuff line that actually does something rather than the craptacular ac/atk debuffs we have that cause no noticeable change to mobs dps or damage mitigation. The only thing I use HoR for is to make my nukes/DoT's hit for more other than that it's useless in my opinion.

Bottomline we get more fixes to currently broken issues while the other priests get new shiny toys. So I don't know about the rest of you but I'm sick of getting the hand me downs.

Sorry Dorda the only way I'm going to belive WIS affects resists is with proper parsing and maybe pie charts :behindcom

hmm pieeeee
I would .. dont know how to do parsing and i have a crap computer and little time though :( Any hints on how to do? I would be curious to have a chart plotting root breaks and snare resists against wis.

The epic clicky is good simply because it effects everyone, not just you or your group. In my opinion, since we really have no other form of mana regen except steeloak and the mask line (which isn't enough mana regen, in my opinion), instead of adding a group heal effect on the epic, they should add a self only mana tap.

For the most part I'm content with the way things are now, although I would love stances to be implemented because I'm either usually healing or nuking. I hardly ever do both. When I'm main healer, I don't want to spend my mana nuking in case something bad happens. But even when I'm mainly nuking and patch healing a little bit if something goes wrong, even a 50% reduction would usually be enough of a patch so someone else (cleric) can get a heal off... As long as they scale down the mana cost for the heal down with the amount that it heals, I could care less about the loss in power in most situations. One thing they do need to give us is a heal over time, which a lot of you have already said... I think that alone would boost our healing power up near where it should be anyway. Of course, another interesting idea would be allowing Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal's mana cost to scale up with tank hp, and make it a true 75% complete heal, or adding a healing rain that only effects our group but could still crit like our ice rains, maybe 800 per wave.

Honestly, it's no wonder the devs aren't responding to the people on these and other boards. No one seems to be able to agree on anything except minor changes to already existing spells, and we're supposed to be representing our class. If they look to us for what we want and all we show them is a 20-page long arguement which just continues on another thread, then how are they going to be able to help us? Right now they're probably just as confused, annoyed, and angry about this as we are...

Right now, I think we're totally underpowered in our healing, but a few small changes could fix that problem easily. If we get a slight increase in our nuke and damage over time power as well, could we not just fix this without stances, and still keep our versatility without all of the other classes complaining? Most everyone will agree that druid healing is not up to par, so if that's fixed then that leaves a LITTLE room for our dps, which in my opinion is not as lacking as our healing. Like I said before, I really wouldn't mind stances being implemented, but if it'll get everyone to agree on something then I'm all for that being taken away...