View Full Forums : Open Letter to the Kansas School Board


Panamah
08-04-2005, 01:11 PM
Other versions of the Intelligent Design Theory which includes global average temperature versus average number of pirates, more proof that some intelligence was behind the design of the universe... but what sort of intelligence?

http://www.venganza.org/

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

May you be forever touched by his Noodly Appendage

Panamah
08-04-2005, 01:17 PM
Ha! The Kansas school board actually responded, I think:

Response from Mrs. Janet Waugh - District 1 - Received 6/25/05

From: JWaugh1052@aol.com
To: bobby.henderson@gmail.com
Date: Jun 25, 2005 6:34 AM
Subject: Response from a member of the Kansas Board of Education

Thanks for your comments about the Flying Spaghetti Monster and all the supporters who have sent their support to members of the Kansas Board of Education. I am supporting the recommendations of the science committee and am currently in the minority. I think your theory is wonderful and possibly some of the majority members will be willing to support it.
Thanks again,

Janet Waugh
District 1






Response from Mrs. Sue Gamble - District 2 - Received 6/26/05

From: msgamble@swbell.net
To: bobby.henderson@gmail.com
Date: Jun 26, 2005 6:34 PM
Subject: Reply

Dear Mr. Henderson, Thanks for your message. Thanks for the laugh. Your web site is fascinating. I will add your theory to a long list of alternative theories I intend to introduce when it is appropriate. I am practicing how to do this with a straight face which is difficult since it's such a ridiculous subject; it is also very sad that we are even having the discussion.

I will be one of the four member minority who will be voting against the flawed science standards currently being proposed by the six member majority.
Sincerely, Sue Gamble

Kerech
08-04-2005, 01:26 PM
I'm a lifelong resident of Kansas. In case anyone is wondering, I believe this was all sparked by the recent debate over teaching creationism over evolution in Kansas schools. At one time the Kansas School Board was promoting creationism and then they switched to evolution - not really sure where they ended up. My son is only 3 so I'm not too terribly worried about it just yet...

Still, the picture of the spaghetti monster in the Michaelangelo painting is classic :)

Panamah
08-04-2005, 01:39 PM
More great science!

I’m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.

You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

guice
08-04-2005, 01:54 PM
I love how people use statistics to their advantages to support a false belief to show the fundamintal flaw in supporting creationism.

jtoast
08-04-2005, 02:20 PM
Hmmm...is that a new branch of Scientology?

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-04-2005, 02:24 PM
I love how people use statistics to their advantages to support a false belief to show the fundamintal flaw in supporting creationism.

That is why they invented statistics in the first place.


As soon as anyone, including people who share your opinion, quote numbers you can pretty well assume that:

1) The numbers are wrong. Or taking from the wrong group or circumstance.
2) Sided one way or the other for persuasive purposes.
3) Used to make the speaker or writer sound more important or intelligent.


I use this one all the time, "Do you know that less than 60(insert any usefu/useless number here)% of the population believes(does, acts, whatever) the same as you do?"

If the listener does not question me on that one, I know that they are really disinterested in what I am saying or dim.

guice
08-04-2005, 02:35 PM
I fully agree. I don't even listen to stats anymore to be honest, unless they make logical sense to me, personally, and I agree with the mods of collecting the data.

For example; the latest data showing that violence decreased as games increased is a fud. too many additional factors in the growth of society to try and claim games were the reason.

Jinjre
08-04-2005, 02:50 PM
I heard a pastor once preach a little sermon on this topic. When he got to the end of his sermon, he said "You can't explain science with religion, nor can you explain religion with science. To do either destroys both."

I thought it was a very wise statement.

Panamah
08-04-2005, 02:54 PM
Just in case some folks didn't pick up on it, this is satire. They probably really don't believe in a Flying Spagetti Monster, they're just trying to make a point and have apparently created quite a following while doing so. Did you see the Michaelangelo with the guy reaching out to the FSM? Hilarious!

guice
08-04-2005, 03:02 PM
Just wait, in a few hundered years, spaghetti will be banned cause it's the sacrid body of our creator!

Panamah, why did you say that? You just ruined the fun of it. :(

Jinjre, I hear ya. In a way he is right; You cannot use science (ie facts) to explain religion (ie personal beliefs). It's just impossible. And vis-versa is true as well.

Panamah
08-04-2005, 04:10 PM
Aw, sorry Guice. I guess I was always the one to tell folks there is no Santa Claus. :p

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-04-2005, 04:24 PM
I think that science can explain religion.

Why it is so prevalent. Why it is needed by so many people.



I, now, think there is perfectly reasonable explanation for it's almost uniform generalized existence.


But it is all based on sex/reproduction, of course.

Mind you, that does not mean there really is a god(there is none), but the need to have a god(or goddess) is rather strong in most people.

guice
08-04-2005, 04:24 PM
WHAT?!?! THERE'S NO SATA!!!!! :cry:

Anka
08-04-2005, 05:39 PM
Psychology can probably expound religion, but not in a way acceptable to anyone religious.

By the way, does carbon dating rely on probability theory? Does the carbon change in a perfectly regular fashion or is the dating process reliant on calculating the most probable date given the amount of random occuring changes in the carbon?

Arienne
08-04-2005, 06:15 PM
WHAT?!?! THERE'S NO SATA!!!!! :cry:guice, guice, guice....WHY do you make us guess where the "N" goes in "SATA"? :devil-lau

Yrys
08-04-2005, 06:21 PM
Hmm... Santa = Satan?

vestix
08-04-2005, 06:48 PM
Psychology can probably expound religion, but not in a way acceptable to anyone religious.

By the way, does carbon dating rely on probability theory? Does the carbon change in a perfectly regular fashion or is the dating process reliant on calculating the most probable date given the amount of random occuring changes in the carbon?

Radioactive decay is inherently a random process, but when considering a large number of atoms, the averages work out. Reference the "law of large numbers" is you want more detail.

Anka
08-04-2005, 06:57 PM
Radioactive decay is inherently a random process, but when considering a large number of atoms, the averages work out. Reference the "law of large numbers" is you want more detail.

Oh I know that full well, but Creationists could of course say the same about their theories too. Statistics and probability creep into many aspects of evolution.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-04-2005, 07:16 PM
Oh I know that full well, but Creationists could of course say the same about evolution too. You have to be careful with statistical arguments.

Why would that be important to me?

Of course I do not live in Kansas. If those inbred hill billies want to teach their children in schools that babies come from storks, I could not care less.

We should take their right to vote away from them though.

What I mean, is you can not really teach a Creationist or convince them that they are wrong. I have tried all my life. You wanna know how many converts I have met, nadda, nix, zero.

I have never met a Creationist, who when shown the lightbulb pulled the string themselves. And whenever the string was pulled for them, they immediately hit the bulb with a piece of their grey matter and broke it promptly.

"Ok, I see it now, everything that my parents and priests told me is a lie"
"You know what, I get it now, it all makes so much more sense to me now"
"I can see what you mean by that, that Darwin guy was a smart dude"

Never have I heard anything remotely come from even the fence-sittiest willy nilly Creationist. Nothing close. Ever.

The best the enlighted can do is keep them from getting seats in local government and school boards. Eventually, those in Kansas(on school boards) will retire and die, and make room for people with half a wit. And, then it will swing back the other way for those poor assed retarded hicks down there.

Aidon
08-04-2005, 09:48 PM
Psychology can probably expound religion, but not in a way acceptable to anyone religious.

To call Psychology a science is rather liberal (in the literal, not political sense).

By the way, does carbon dating rely on probability theory? Does the carbon change in a perfectly regular fashion or is the dating process reliant on calculating the most probable date given the amount of random occuring changes in the carbon?

Considering most carbon dating I've seen is listed at date +/- X number of years (X increasing as the date goes further back), I'd assume its not perfectly regular.

Cantatus
08-04-2005, 09:56 PM
What I mean, is you can not really teach a Creationist or convince them that they are wrong. I have tried all my life. You wanna know how many converts I have met, nadda, nix, zero.

Why are you trying to convert them? How do you know they're wrong? I mean, I'm not a Christian myself, but this strikes me as just as bad as the Bible Thumpers who come to my door expounding the name of Yahweh at me.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-04-2005, 11:08 PM
It may strike you any way you please.

The less people who believe in ghosts, angels, magic, demons, and devils in positions of power the better, I predict, my life will be.

When they get too many in number(like they have in Kansas), ****ed up things happen.

They start burning your books and music and art in bonfires.
They **** up your professional dealings.
They try and teach your kids in school, that the Earth was made in a Day; with your tax money.
They pass laws that take away your pass-times and things that you enjoy doing.
They pass laws to put you in jail.
In extreme cases they have even been known to set people on fire.


How do you know they're wrong?
Because they are. Why would you ask such a silly question?

When they keep their stupid mythologies in their homes and places of worship. It is when they want to bring that crap out into the public and shove it in my face, that it gets in the way.

Cantatus
08-05-2005, 12:35 AM
Well, see, it's because they're imposing their beliefs on you that is making them horrible. You doing it to them doesn't make you any better. You're just a mirror of them.

People - whether Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Scientologist, Wiccan, whatever - need to be tolerant of other people's beliefs and stop trying to push their own beliefs on other people. That just adds fuel to the fire.

Regardless, I do agree that Christianity has more power in the government - and just the US, in general - than they should. I just don't think the solution is trying to push your own beliefs on them.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-05-2005, 12:46 AM
Well, see, it's because they're imposing their beliefs on you that is making them horrible. You doing it to them doesn't make you any better. You're just a mirror of them.

People - whether Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Scientologist, Wiccan, whatever - need to be tolerant of other people's beliefs and stop trying to push their own beliefs on other people. That just adds fuel to the fire.

Regardless, I do agree that Christianity has more power in the government - and just the US, in general - than they should. I just don't think the solution is trying to push your own beliefs on them.

Where did you get the idea I was imposing anything?

That is silly.

If people want to worship a corpse on a stick, and pray to dead people on their own property, in their own homes, more power to them. But I think that they are morbidly irrational.

And government, public tax dollars, should not be used to propagate their death cult.

Cantatus
08-05-2005, 12:57 AM
Where did you get the idea I was imposing anything?

What I mean, is you can not really teach a Creationist or convince them that they are wrong. I have tried all my life.

If I'm reading that wrong, I apologize, but that definitely reads like you're trying to convert them. Perhaps "impose" is too strong a word?

But really, I think we mainly agree. I'm fine with people believing whatever they want, as long as it isn't forced onto me, and tax dollars definitely shouldn't be spent to do so.

guice
08-05-2005, 01:14 AM
The only thing I don't get about creationists is how they can believe in something with absolutely zero physical, non-man created, evidance to support their theories...

It just doesn't make sense to me. It's all about belief in something that cannot be proven.There isn't even any "solid evidance" behind creationism. All I hear is "humans are far too complex to be an evolutionary accident". These are the same people that will tell you "the sun isn't *that* big! That's just too large to fathom. God would neve have done that". Yes, some of them have stated things like that in the past. They really just don't understand the scope of things and how small the human race really is when put into perspective.

Anyhow, went on a slight rant there, sorry. I still stand my ground; Evolution has tangiable evidance proven through carbon dating the age of skulls clearly showing a "path" of growth. Evolution has been proven in lesser species on our planet. A species has been proven to alter it's DNA structure so much in the course of it's own life, it's no longer the same species. All these things provide a solid backing that Evolution is fact. However, creationists seem the need to push creastionism onto the kids with absolutely *zero* tangiable evidance. I don't get it.... I really don't....

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-05-2005, 01:33 AM
If I'm reading that wrong, I apologize, but that definitely reads like you're trying to convert them. Perhaps "impose" is too strong a word?

But really, I think we mainly agree. I'm fine with people believing whatever they want, as long as it isn't forced onto me, and tax dollars definitely shouldn't be spent to do so.

What I am saying is that using every logical and effective debate technique to prove that there is no god is useless with creationists.

You can try every thing that you got.

You can use Powerpoint, CGI, and pie charts and everything to PROVE there is no such thing...

And in the end the Creationist is going to calmly look you in the eye and say to you..."None of that matters, I believe what I believe".

Which then brings us back around to what started this conversation in the first place, Carbon dating, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics, or the fact that your uncle Joe's knuckles drag on the floor and his back is hairier than his head is not going to convince those people any more or any less than ANY statistics.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-05-2005, 02:02 AM
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/12290508.htm

WASHINGTON - President Bush invigorated opponents of teaching evolution in public schools with remarks saying schoolchildren should be taught about ``intelligent design,'' a view of creation that challenges scientific thinking and promotes the idea that an unseen force is behind the development of humanity.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-05-2005, 02:05 AM
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-08-04T191725Z_01_N04247382_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-POLITICS-EVOLUTION-DC.XML

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A leading Republican senator allied with the religious right differed on Thursday with President Bush's support for teaching an alternative to the theory of evolution known as "intelligent design."

"I think I would probably tailor that a little more than what the president has suggested," Santorum, the third-ranking Republican member of the U.S. Senate, told National Public Radio. "I'm not comfortable with intelligent design being taught in the science classroom."
THANK GOD!

Evangelical Christians have launched campaigns in at least 18 states to make public schools teach intelligent design alongside Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.
I told ya, you let them go unchecked they start to get brazen.

Most Americans believe that God created human beings or guided the process of evolution, according to a CBS poll last November. Two-thirds said they wanted creationism taught alongside evolution in schools.
Most Americans believe that their god raped a poor ignorant peasant woman too, in order to create their Messiah.

Cantatus
08-05-2005, 03:11 AM
What I am saying is that using every logical and effective debate technique to prove that there is no god is useless with creationists.

Ah, ok, I misunderstood you. Sorry! :axe:

Carbon dating, and the Second Law of thermodynamics, or the fact that your uncle Joe's knuckles drag on the floor and his back is hairier than his head is not going to convince those people anymore or any less than ANY statistics.

It's stuff like this (http://truthforyouth.com/NEW%20Comics/SM/images/SM_2.jpg) that skews the facts (or just makes up asinine things like "evolution is racist!") for them to be able to reject evolution. (From Truth for Youth (http://truthforyouth.com/standard/main.htm))

Honestly, I don't care whether or not people believe evolution. Hell, I could care less if someone said that Gallieo was wrong and the sun does revolve around the earth. You don't have to believe science, but you can't deny that it is science. Even if tomorrow some evidence were to come out that completely discredited evolution, it'd still be taught as a part of science, because it is an important theory that has influenced many other scientific principles and ideas. There are many other parts of science that I learned in my biology class that were later found out to be wrong (like Redi's spontaneous generation) because they helped to bring about other scientific ideas. If Intelligent Design is taught in science, it should be done in a way that shows its impact on other scientific laws and theories. It shouldn't be taught as science itself.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-05-2005, 03:30 AM
it'd still be taught as a part of science, because it is an important theory that has influenced many other scientific principles and ideas.

The only real purpose of science, of every real science, is to understand things well enough to predict things.

If one can not use it to predict, and with general accuracy, then it is useless. And should not be taught in any practical course. It should be discarded.

And the only purpose there is in predicting things is in order to change, or effect change in the future,,,predictably and mostly accurately.

Intelligent Design does not do that. It is a great subject for an Anthropology or Philosophy or Religion class. But it has no use in any science class.

The Greeks thought that Apollo drove a flaming chariot across the skys every day, and they believed it with as much certainty as Christians believe their Messiah walked on water; I certainly would hope that no one would have to teach that as part of Astronomy to 'give the other side of things'.

The Norse believed that giant invisible trolls pulled at people's feet to keep them on the ground. Even though no scientist, today, can tell you exactly what Gravity is, I certainly hope that the Norse myth is not taught in Physics classes. Not only is it stupid, but there may be some kid out there(maybe even yet unborn) who will figure it out and explain it to the rest of humanity. But if you stick that nonsense in his mush-mellon, he may never want to.

Anka
08-05-2005, 05:05 AM
Most Americans believe that their god raped a poor ignorant peasant woman too, in order to create their Messiah.

And what's wrong with the messiah being a child of poor education, poor wealth, but high spirit? Mary did a lot better than the lovers of Zeus who all seemed to find some sticky end.

If strict Christians wanted to teach kids that the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth then you'd think they were plain stupid. The people who believe strongly in evolution feel the same way about creationism.

Aidon
08-05-2005, 08:11 AM
What I am saying is that using every logical and effective debate technique to prove that there is no god is useless with creationists.

Its useless with any person of faith. That's why its called faith. You'll never convince me there's no God. I'll never believe Earth was capable of sustaining intelligent life by sheer random accident. My belief doesn't mean I disbelieve scientific principles or evolution, specifically. God is omnipotent, and closer to omniscient than we'll ever manage...He's one smart dude. I do not doubt His ability to have enacted scientific principles and natural laws. We're his bedroom chemistry set, He's watching us to see what we do.

edit: This shouldn't be taken as any agreement by myself that schools should teach intelligent design. Schools are not supposed to teach faith. That's what parents are for. I don't want my decendants someday having to learn in school that the Great Spirit Onabwa Ejected the Earth from Her Navel and Humans Were Her Bellybutton Lint.

Aidon
08-05-2005, 08:22 AM
And what's wrong with the messiah being a child of poor education, poor wealth, but high spirit?

Please, Jesus would have been better educated than 99% of the world at the time. Literacy in Judea was extremely high.

Kerech
08-05-2005, 11:02 AM
Of course I do not live in Kansas. If those inbred hill billies want to teach their children in schools that babies come from storks, I could not care less.

We should take their right to vote away from them though.


I'm a lifelong resident of Kansas. I am neither inbred, nor a hillbilly. If you've never been to Kansas, you have no right to speak of our state or its residents this way. :tut:

*edit* Ok, read further in the thread and saw this gem:

When they get too many in number(like they have in Kansas), ****ed up things happen.

They start burning your books and music and art in bonfires.
They **** up your professional dealings.
They try and teach your kids in school, that the Earth was made in a Day; with your tax money.
They pass laws that take away your pass-times and things that you enjoy doing.
They pass laws to put you in jail.
In extreme cases they have even been known to set people on fire.


You need to shut the hell up about things you know nothing about. We do not burn books (or people for that matter). I am a professional and have never had my "dealings" messed up. I teach my son what I believe. I also teach him that others have differing views and that right or wrong, he respects that other person's view, whether he agrees with it or not. I have never had a past-time taken away and nothing I enjoy doing is illegal... just where the hell do you get off with all the stereotypes?

Do I agree with our Board of Education? No. But they were elected and they are in charge for now. Next election that will undoubtedly change.

I love living in a rural community. I can walk the streets any time day or night without fear. I know people around town, and they know me. I like to think I'm respected in my community for the things I've done and people are always willing to help out if they see a friend/neighbor in need. I have no idea where you live, but if that's the view of Kansas that they have there, then I feel pity for you.

From the picture you paint of Kansas, it's obvious that you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Wish this board had an ignore feature...

guice
08-05-2005, 11:16 AM
err... misread..... move along, nothing to see here....

Fyyr Lu'Storm
08-05-2005, 12:24 PM
You need to shut the hell up about things you know nothing about.

They have not been responsible for setting people on fire in my lifetime, but I have read about in books.

I was around and awake during the Reagan 80's. That stuff happened. I was there.

The book and music bonfires. I attended those, those happened all across this country in white middle class white bread churches. They took place walking distance from my house.
The book bannings were real. They happened in my town.
The DandD witchhunts. Real.
The Satanic Post Regressive Memory witchhunts. They happened in my county and in my state.
The Satanic music trials, you do remember Ozzy Osbourne and Rob Halford being hauled into court by doo goody Christain prosecuters, right? They happened in my country.
The Meese Commission.
Jerry Fallwell, Oral Roberts, Jim Baker, and Pat Robertson(running for President).
The PMRC.
The Expansion of the FDA and the DEA, creation of the Drug Czar, the assinine beginning of the War on Drugs. Just Say NO!
The whole country driving around with fish on their windows and yellow "I Found It!" stickers on their bumpers.

Hell, Prohibition(obviously not in my lifetime) was shoved down this country's throat by a bunch of tea totalling bible thumpers.

I have no idea where you live, but if that's the view of Kansas that they have there, then I feel pity for you.
I did pity you for living in the laughing stock belly fold of the country, until I read that stuff about Bush and the concerted effort in 18 states to teach that crap.

Next election that will undoubtedly change.
I said that. Hopefully.

just where the hell do you get off with all the stereotypes
What stereotype? They are Evangelical Christians. That is what evangelical means. That is its definition, part of it at least.

Have you ever lost business or lost money because of your beliefs, **** no, of course not. You are part of the majority. And just because your pass times include church ice cream socials, hay rides, and sock hops, and such do not threaten them, does not mean that people different than you are not tolerated or oppressed. The majority when it oppresses, NEVER, thinks that what they are doing is wrong, disrespectful, or intolerant.