Anyone see the people in New Orleans saying that?
I was watching the talking head tonight on CNN criticising the head of FEMA for not doing enough.

Weren't those people told a week ago to leave? Mandatory evacuation.

How many else were given the impression that a lot of those folks sticking around were waiting for looting season to begin?

I don't think it's exactly FEMA/whoever's fault, but... I saw someone mentioning somewhere that the evacuation plan didn't do much for people with low incomes and/or without transportation. Especially like homeless people.

I wonder if it would have been possible to get a bus/train ticket out of there after they announced the evacuation on Sunday.

I really don't think that there is a simple answer like that. It's hard to get people to leave thier homes on short notice. Just look at Mt. St. Helens. Even though there was much warning of an erruption people died from being too close. When a disaster like this happens often people look for a simple answer and, someone to blame. REally there is no one to blame or everyone to blame. Rather then looking for someone to blame. Look forward to what can be done different in the future.

I feel badly for the folks who were hit hard by this disaster but it's lame to sit back and blame everything on others when you've chosen to live at or below sea level in an area frequented by hurricanes and haven't taken precautions to deal with it. I realize that some people may be incapable of doing this for one reason or another but not as many as are stuck there now.

Maybe I'm just reading the wrong articles, but the Mayor of New Orleans is striking me as bit of a moron...

The people who stayed were taking a big risk, one that didn't pay off sadly.

I suppose there will be questions though about the preparations for the storm, since the storm did veer off course and this can't even be considered the worst possible outcome. The contingency plans seemed suited for a category 3 storm maybe, and there's been little to suggest that city authorities were prepared for a 'one in fifty years' storm that could flood the entire city. Using the Astrodome as the city's safe haven seems a massive underestimation.

It takes political will and foresight to mitigate major flooding disasters.

In the 1950's the premier of Manitoba was a man named Duff Roblin. Despite opposition and ridicule, his government spent enormous amounts of money building the Red River Floodway around the city of Winnipeg. It was intended to bypass floodwater around the city. This floodway was the butt of many jokes. Its nickname was Duff's Ditch. When I lived in Winnipeg, there was a small trickle of water going through this enormous floodway. The floodway land was used for recreational activities such a snowmobile races.

Then came the great floods of 1997. Southern Manitoba and adjacent parts of the U.S. were inundated. There was enormous damage. Whole towns were flooded out.

There was no significant flooding in Winnipeg, due to Duff's Ditch.

Human resilience being what it is, I think that the future will bring major improvements to southern Louisiana's flood protection infrastructure. Make the plans quickly, before people become forgetful and complacent.

They just need to build a large uberglass dome around all of New Orleans /nod.

The Uberdome!

They just need to build a large uberglass dome around all of New Orleans /nod.

The Uberdome!With full AC.

People are much more interested in spending money on infrastructure right after that infrastructure is needed.

As for evacuation, there are many people there living in abject poverty. They don't have any means to evacuate except by walking and carrying their meager possessions. I don't think that is an excuse for looting, but I think it's worth keeping in mind when you see people that stayed behind.

If you're looking for a scapegoat, the media has at least a small role to play. It's a classic case of the "boy who cried wolf." One of the most common statements I've seen from people is that they didn't expect it to be as bad, especialy after the previous hurricanes that turned out to be nothing special.

In the era of The Weather Channel and 24 hour news stations, they are desperate to put "news" on the air. So, they over-hype every little thing. I remember, last year, when one of the Florida Hurricanes took a path to the North East. Listening to New England Cable News (Our local 24 hour news station) you would think it was the end of the world. Of course, It turned out to be nothing but a gusty band of Thunderstorms with Max wind bursts of 45MPH. /yawn. And I'm always amused how the first "big" snow storm of the season get's billed as "the storm of the century." After years of listening to this sort of non-sense, It's not hard to understand why people think they can ride out storms like Katrina.

Now, there may be culpability for the State and Federal governments if they weren't maintaining the Levies properly. If neglect led to the breaches that caused the majority of the flooding in New Orleans, then there could be someone to blame.

And I'm always amused how the first "big" snow storm of the season get's billed as "the storm of the century."

Yeah, all 4 inches of it, and after living here all their lives the assclowns still can't drive in it.

This was my thought, though. Everything is so hyped today. I, for one, am guilty of ignoring these warnings. Occasionally we get tornado watches here. I remember one a couple of years ago...it came on while I was watching a Giants preseason game.

No way in hell was I going to sit in the basement while the game was on. So at every commercial, I'd get up and go out in the hall and look down the street.

Because of course the tornado is going to come right down the street, where I can see it ahead of time. It wouldn't just drop out of the sky, right?

I remember with amusement a 'massive' snow storm north of Houston. I flew in to the airport (can't remember the name... not Hobby) and drove a rental car to the Galleria on Westheimer. The snow near the airport must have been at least three snowflakes deep :) . There were people in the ditch, spinning tires, spinning cars, dented fenders, dented guard rails... it was hilarious. Newspaper headlines the following morning blared about the 'blizzard' and the articles were very serious. Being used to Canadian winters, I found the reporting high comedy.

... on the other hand, expose a Canadian to a southern states heat wave, and watch him wilt.

It's not like all those people had someplace go to, but at the same time they need to fend for themselves and not expect the goverment to do everything for them.

I find that it takes one or two snow falls before people start "remembering" how to drive in the snow up here. It's also about the same amount of time it takes new SUV owners to realize that 4WD is great for getting moving in the snow, but doesn't help for slowing down. :P

But, one reason the south is practically crippled in the smallest amount of snow is that they don't prepair for it. In "cold states" roads are often pre-treated with sand/salt/ash before the roads ice up. That makes a tremendous difference. Add to that, southerners having no clue to drive on snow/ice and you're begging for trouble.

Still, I always laugh when I see Texas cancelling school because of the quarter inch of snow they got. It's unusual for anyting but after school activities to get cancelled for anything less than a half a foot up here.

Texas has nothing to do with snow, it has to do with ice. Dallas would get a little bit of snow which would melt during the afternoon, then freeze solid at night. The city only has a few sand trucks, seems silly to waste a million or two on trucks you *might* use once a year. I had friends who moved to Dallas from the Minnesota area and they said that driving on Texas roads after icing is much worse than plowed roads in Minn.

Like I said. Pre-treating the roads goes a long way. And driving in snow is easier than on ice. I love driving the truck on unplowed roads, late at night, early in the storm. Generally, the roads don't turn to ice until after the snow has been compacted by traffic.

The only bits that really freeze up are unused roads and bridges. Most of the bridges are pre-sanded, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

<I>*edit - They also do zero "pre-treating" up here on Long Island that I've seen. They just salt/chem the crap out of everything once the snow is down. Plus the fact that there's 2093843029 on-call privately owned plows doesn't hurt.</i>

I remember with amusement a 'massive' snow storm north of Houston. I flew in to the airport (can't remember the name... not Hobby) and drove a rental car to the Galleria on Westheimer. The snow near the airport must have been at least three snowflakes deep :) . There were people in the ditch, spinning tires, spinning cars, dented fenders, dented guard rails... it was hilarious. Newspaper headlines the following morning blared about the 'blizzard' and the articles were very serious. Being used to Canadian winters, I found the reporting high comedy.

... on the other hand, expose a Canadian to a southern states heat wave, and watch him wilt.Few Texas cities are equipped to handle even a mild snow. In areas where snow is a part of life, street surfaces are different, developed driving habits are different and the communities have snow removal equipment.

I lived in Dallas for many years and we would always have one (occasionally two) ice storms or several inches of snow every winter. The method the city used for dealing with it was to ask people to stay home unless it was critical that they get out, and send city trucks out loaded with sand and salt for particularly precarious areas. I came from the NE and grew up driving in snowy winters. But we didn't have 4 way stops with very deep bar ditches flanking the roads (navigate THAT on ice!). Yet drainage is extremely important in Dallas due to the nature of the soil and underlying rock hard clay that has tremendous runoff when a heavy flash of rain runs through dumping several inches in an hour. :) And the worst ice storms generally melt off within a day or two anyway. MUCH cheaper to wait out a day or two a year than to invest in, maintain and store the equipment.

So... take the Dallas setting and multiply it by 10 and you will get a Houston-in-snow scenario. They are farther south and rarely get even a light dusting of snow, but almost all of the city highways are overheads.

Go ahead! Laugh all you want but we'll get the last laugh in!! When global warming brings you rain instead of snow, you're gonna drown and that snow removal equipment doesn't float! :)

It's not like all those people had someplace go to, but at the same time they need to fend for themselves and not expect the goverment to do everything for them.

How? Were the elderly meant to start hitchhking from New Orleans a week ago and sleep rough in the middle of Texas? What did you expect the poorest of the poor to actually do?

I'm sorry, this is a bad time to get political, but your statement is a bit hard. This really is an exceptional catastrophe by any sort of reckoning and you're can't ask everyone to deal with it on their own.

I can just imagine my parents trying to evacuate if they didn't have friends or family around to help them. It would have been impossible for them. I'm sure they both would have become casualties in that instance, unless there was some organized assistance for people like them.

The only bits that really freeze up are unused roads and bridges. Most of the bridges are pre-sanded, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

<I>*edit - They also do zero "pre-treating" up here on Long Island that I've seen. They just salt/chem the crap out of everything once the snow is down. Plus the fact that there's 2093843029 on-call privately owned plows doesn't hurt.</i>

Bridges are the fist roadways to freeze, so they are always worse than the rest of the road system. Pre-treating definately helps though. There is a stark difference between the pre-treated main roads and the untreated side roads durring storms.

I'm on the Mass/New Hapshire line. Freezing Rain and Ice Storms are pretty common up here. I can't even begin to count the times I've walked out to my car in the morning, only to see it doing it's best glazed donut impression. When they are predicted, we always see them ashing the roads before it starts. Not side streets mind you, but Interstates and main roads.

And yes, Private contractors do the bulk of the snow removal around here too. Typically, Landscaping companies fill in the winter months with Snow Plowing since they lose so much business in the winter. The DPW handles the Interstates and state roads. Everything else is done by the local towns and their contractors. Plus, the whole infrastructure is set up for it. The state keeps huge "hanger like" buildings scattered off the main interstates filled with Salt and sand.

How? Were the elderly meant to start hitchhking from New Orleans a week ago and sleep rough in the middle of Texas? What did you expect the poorest of the poor to actually do?

I'm sorry, this is a bad time to get political, but your statement is a bit hard. This really is an exceptional catastrophe by any sort of reckoning and you're can't ask everyone to deal with it on their own.

Did you even read the first line I posted?

It's not like all those people had someplace go to

Quite so. Many could leave safely. Many had to stay as they felt they had nowhere to go or no way to get out.

but at the same time they need to fend for themselves and not expect the goverment to do everything for them.

I'm sorry if I've read you wrong but this doesn't seem like a time to be telling people to buck up their ideas and stop scrounging. They've just had their homes destroyed, workplaces destroyed, food destroyed, water supplies contaminted, all power down, roads are flooded, and you're telling them to get on with things. It's not very sympathetic.

According to NPR tonight the last census found 112,000 households in New Orleans without any sort of transportation. And they did a hurricane simulation just before Katrina hit and they figured they'd probably have a couple hundred people that couldn't get out of the city. They just hadn't worked out the part of the plan to get people without transportation out of the city.

err... I mean hundred thousand, not hundred.

It's not like all those people had someplace go to, but at the same time they need to fend for themselves and not expect the goverment to do everything for them.

If this isn't a situation in which to expect the government to take charge, what is?

And they did a hurricane simulation just before Katrina hit and they figured they'd probably have a couple hundred people that couldn't get out of the city.

And the simulation probably didn't take into account the massive damage to the levees that breached.

The fact is, some people could have left that didn't.

Some people felt they had no choice so didn't try.

Some people truly had no choice.

None of it matters as speculation won't help the people in the situaton now. I'm not going to go into how angry I am about the news (both reported in the media and from people I know in the area - the later paints a worse picture) of how people are treating each other down there.

The fact is, some people could have left that didn't.


I agree 100%. Like I said earlier, it's the boy who cried wolf scenario.

None of it matters as speculation won't help the people in the situaton now. I'm not going to go into how angry I am about the news (both reported in the media and from people I know in the area - the later paints a worse picture) of how people are treating each other down there.

This situation will bring out the best and worse of human nature. But, you are right. The media seems to be showing just the worse side because it brings more readers/ratings.

One of the things that seems to be getting lost is that even the people who did leave are screwed. Many/most of them are running out of money quickly (hotels aren't free), they have no income entering their cash stream, they have no job to go back to, nor do they have a house to go back to.

The people who are being evacuated are in worse shape physically. In less than a week, I'd bet we're going to see serious problem with the people who evacuated themselves.

I have a friend who evacuated last Saturday. He is now talking about moving to the Bay Area. He has some clothes and a car which runs okay. That's it. Everything else is gone. His state job is gone. His house is gone. He got his daughter out and he's happy for that. He's having to start from nothing all over again. I shudder to think of how my life would be if I lost everything like that.

And the simulation probably didn't take into account the massive damage to the levees that breached.

I left off "thousand". A couple of hundred thousand people. Sheesh! What a mistake!

Yes, actually they figured the storm surge would rise higher than the levy. However, their planning was too little, too late.

I'm really struggling with what is happening in New Orleans and the surrounding area in the aftermath of Katrina. On one hand, I'm suspicious of sensationalistic media reporting re: shootings, killings, rapes, looting etc. On the other hand, if most of this is true, it's a monumental tragedy. It seems like a breakdown of civilization in the affected area. It's tough to swallow. Hopefully the reporting is exagerrating.

Well, if you think about it... what would happen if you get a bunch of people with no clean water to drink, no food to eat, no sanitation, hotter than hell weather? I bet their tempers would be fraying. There's probably some who were unlawful to start with, that sort of situation they'd have no trouble doing what they pleased.

I just heard a story this morning about a woman who was crying because she ran out of diabetic supplies and had to walk into a store and loot some test strips. She felt terrible about doign it, but she had to.

Anyone see the people in New Orleans saying that?
I was watching the talking head tonight on CNN criticising the head of FEMA for not doing enough.

Weren't those people told a week ago to leave? Mandatory evacuation.

How many else were given the impression that a lot of those folks sticking around were waiting for looting season to begin?

At first, I could not belive how stupid the local governments were. After listening to people complain and hearing how they chose to not evacuate New Orleans, I do not have much sympathy for ignoring all the warnings. Some of the comments stated that they chose to stay behind... I have to say that there was a large amount of huberious on the part of New Orleans residents. I heard statements like... "oh, I went through huricane (fill in the blank) and I thought I would ride this one out.

I don't think that there was an intent to loot for the majority of the people. Food and water are not available and the majority of looting has been for food, water and baby diapers.

As everyone on this board has heard, gas is in short supply at this time. All rescue and transportation requires fuel. I think moving goods into flooded areas have been hampered by this locally. That does not explain why local governments did not stage fuel and food at safer locations.

I understand that it's tough to leave everything you own behind and hope it survives a storm and the subsequent looting, but it's still hard to understand how so many chose to stay behind KNOWING that they would be further taxing the rescue efforts by doing so. Nonetheless, the situation is there now and it needs to be dealt with. As the saying goes, "hindsight is 20-20".


I have heard international comments about the lack of discipline and the comparisons to the tsunami victims. What a lot of these people will never know nor understand is that when New Orleans is at 94 degrees, the humidity level is even higher. Even without a disaster, that's miserable to be in and easy to let your temper get the best of you. Multiply that by several days and thousands of people and someone is bound to blow. :/

But, that's just it, a lot of them didn't have a choice about it. I'm sure some did, but many did not. 112,000 families without transportation is a lot of people. Sure some got out anyway but I doubt there was any sort of plan to get people out who had no other way out.

The freakin' hospitals weren't evacuated. What's up with that?

But, that's just it, a lot of them didn't have a choice about it. I'm sure some did, but many did not. I understand that. My total dismay is with those who COULD and chose not to. Each person remaining from the storm is a drain on the rescue worker resources whether they wanted to stay behind or not. 115k people is tough. Add to that with those who COULD have evacuated and didn't are adding even more to that number.

The freakin' hospitals weren't evacuated. What's up with that?
Last attempt before the army arrived this afternoon was that snipers were shooting at anyone trying to evacuate the hospitals. Idiots!

Stress brings out a person's true nature. Not a lot that is more stressful than what is happening there.

I mean, why weren't the hospitals evacuated before the hurricane hit?

I mean, why weren't the hospitals evacuated before the hurricane hit?

One of the reasons I heard was that the roads were jammed after the call to evacuate and, they felt that some of the critcally ill patients would not make the trip. Unfortunately some did not survive the aftermath anyway.

We have lots of people from New Orleans coming to where I'm at. There are shelters set up and churches and some other places have opened thier doors to take people in. Families are volunteering to also take in people. There are collections everywhere. I imagine other cities are doing the same. There are places for people to go outside of a hotel room.

There is also a number to call for the humane society to adopt a pet that either the owner is not known or for a pet that the family cannot have it where they are now. The ones who the owner is known, the pet will go back to them when they can take it again.

We also got hit with the hurricane, but it had lost it's power by then. Only about 75,000 without power and lots of trees down.

I hear stories all day at work from co-workers who hve friends and family that were in the path of the storm. A lot got out, but some are still down there. Some I think were stupid and after evacuating went back. Those people are now stuck as they don;t have the gas to get back out.

One story I heard was of a father at a mill we deal with being online looking at a mapping program while on the cell phone with his son. He was directing him out of Louisiana and through Texas on the back roads. The main roads being down has other people trapped as they don't know how to get out.

I do think the government didn't react in time. Buses could have helped get people without transportation out of town. More preperation could have been taken.

I keep hearing the reports of the levies breaking and wonder if anyone checked them prior to the storm. I have not heard any reports of that. Seems to me you would want to make sure everything was good before the storm hit since you had warning.

I keep hearing the reports of the levies breaking and wonder if anyone checked them prior to the storm. I have not heard any reports of that.

Army corps of Engineers has been asking the Feds for money to upgrade the NO levee system since the Clinton administration. Instead they got budget cuts with each successive budget.

Whaddya wanna bet they get their money now?

I keep hearing the reports of the levies breaking and wonder if anyone checked them prior to the storm. I have not heard any reports of that.

I don't think that the levees were destroyed by the storm as such, but the rising water just went over the top of the levees and that flow broke them. That suggests the levees were simply not big enough for this size of storm rather than the levee being undermaintained.

I think Iagoe posted a good link about the levees on another thread.