View Full Forums : Work? What's that?


Fenier
12-10-2005, 07:56 PM
I admit, I tend to take a pretty optimistic view of EQ. I have been around a decently long time. I remember when people used to work a very long time on quests, gear upgrades, etc since the majoirty of the game at that point was well below the level cap.

So I must pose the question, where did those hard working lower levels go?

Surely they leveled up. But I am simply floored lately at the sheer amount of people demanding Sony basically GIVE them the following:

Experiance with No Risk, High Yeild rewards that they don't even have to be zoned in for (IE - Read MMs, and yes, I know it was changed).

Zones unlocked, Flags removed, I mean the content is there, but part of the reward for that content is doing what is required to make it there.

Instant Access to all their spells, discs at no effort on the person using them. May as well make a mob you can hall for them.

I mean jeez, I was in a group which keyed 3 people for Sleeper's Tomb (Locked Zone, Velious) after server up. We then went to ST and much to my protest (having done this before), cleared the ENTIRE thing. It took us somewhere around 4-5 hours to clear from the zone in to the Anicents
but for everyone in the group except me, they had never seen past Motg/Prog. Was any of it upgrades? No. But the entire group left the zone, having seen and completed the entire thing, and I think, or would at least hope, having developed a decent amount of respect for the guilds of yesteryear who raided there.

I think, basically, and I am seriously hoping I am wrong, a larger portion of the player base of today seems to be (if this is even possiable) more lazy then ever before in this games history.

What ever happened to working for your gear, aa, etc. Clearly, given some of the recent adjustments to EQ, the Developers still feel you should be working for what you earn. But yet, The Sony Forums, and several Class boards are full of people whining OMG they took away the X item I didn't even really have to work for, now I have to go back to working for stuff again, omg omg!

Random Drop rates for spells suck. I am *very* happy with the DoN/DoD setup for obtaining spells. Anyone can do them (yes, anyone can do the DoD spell missions with a little work and a balanced group setup).

Raids are no longer fcfs for alot of the content, the mob is up, ready to go - when your raid is. This.. to some degree, is a positive thing.

They have basically made EQ to where progression is alot easier then it ever was before, in less time - but it STILL requires effort on the player to progress.

So really, WTH is the issue?

I guess, in closing:

Be happy with what you have. If you are NOT happy with what you have - do something CONSTRUCTIVE to change it. Whining is not constructive. Expecting other people to do the work for you, is not constructive. Take the initative and go to work. Stuff in Life is not free, nor should it be in EQ.

-Fenier

Sildan
12-10-2005, 08:48 PM
My only complaint is the youngins arent forced to look at thier spell book for 34 levels when they med, like I did ( or did it go away at 30? I'm thinkin it was 35 ).

Fenier
12-10-2005, 08:50 PM
It was 35.

Naeyene
12-10-2005, 08:51 PM
Well said, Fenier...

I was there for the Sleeper's Tomb grouping!! ... Taking 5 hours to clear through it. I had never seen the zone before yesterday, and honeslty that was the coolest 5 hours I have spent in EQ. :) Being there, spending the hours it took to clear it, obtaining loot that used to be so awesome, experiencing a new zone in EQ, was incredibly awesome for me.

/Hugs my new Clawed Coat of Tyro (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=29457)

I agree that lately, there is an amazing number of people who feel that everything should be handed to them. It saddens me. Even tho, I am fairly new to EQ. (Only 2 years playing.) I am keyed for nearly everything I can realistically be keyed for and if I am not keyed for it, I am almost done with the quest for it. (Read: VT). Even if I never go there, its a sense of accomplishment in spending the time to do the quest.

/sigh

So, saddening to see people whine because they have to do a little bit of work. The vast majority of people want to be able to log in and type /aa and get 3 AA's, or at least thats how it seems. They do not wanna put in the effort.

Dayuna
12-10-2005, 09:01 PM
Anybody who thinks the things listed in Fenier's post should be forced to spend a /played of 1 week on a special server that runs exactly like it was in Kunark or Velious. =p Then they'll see how good they have it now and how easy the game really is now.

Juniper
12-11-2005, 04:36 PM
I watched Ssseth go into ST with you guys, and even though nothing is an upgrade I totally want to go now. I may get Juniper VT keyed also.

It's fun to go through and get stuff done. I guess I never saw it as 'work' and honestly when I've been the most upset when playing it's because I wasn't being challenged.

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
12-11-2005, 06:15 PM
When we started playing EQ, there was a seemingly endless supply of players our level. 55 seemed a long way away, but something we weren't required to be to participate in guild activities. It was rare to find a zone that wasn't crowded with players your level. Between all the trains and KS calls were the constant calls for groups looking for more. You didn't even have to know how to play to get into a group. Odds were, you had to be really bad to get kicked out of the group.

Now, if you're starting out new? You're not going to find newbie zones packed with players. You're not going to find 10 players your level, much less 6, who are also new to the game and eager to set out exploring Old World. Which is what I found. Quite easily too despite how I tend to avoid strangers. You also better not make any mistakes, or suffer from an inability to find your way through zones. I know a few level 70, six year vets, who still can't read a map to save their life. Don't expect them to be able to autofollow either. They still haven't got that down!

There was a solid game in the teens, the 20s, the 30s, the 40s and 50s when we were growing up. You didn't have to be end game to feel challenged and rewarded. You didn't have to be end game to be valued or respected.

Not so now. Now you have to be 70 before you feel like you're worth anything. Don't expect to be able to join guild raids. Even in a guild that takes all levels. If you're able to find pickup groups, you're going to be playing with alts of high level players, alts that start out are better geared than most of us were in our 50s.

EQ offers nothing to low levels or new players. Is it any wonder so many people want it all handed to them? Why should they struggle to get anywhere when just about everyone else is end game and "has it all"? It's no different than real life haves and the have nots. The haves think they are better than the have nots, deserve preferential treatment, and are angered when the have nots dare intrude in their world. The have nots want what the haves have, want it now, and feel the world owes it to them.

Monster Missions almost put everyone on the same footing. Some were too easy, others are too hard/time consuming. The AFK thing was pure wrong and isn't an issue anymore, but some people will never let that go. Yet, no one complains about the Darkhollow non monster missions. You do know you can still get credit for those missions while sitting ungrouped in the guild hall? /cough, do you even have to participate in any of the spell missions to get your spells?

Or is it the haves and have nots thing? Since I'm 70 and raid in Tacvi, I deserve the Pristine Illsalin Stonecraft Mask for doing nothing? But that level 30 sitting beside me in the guild hall better not be getting exp from a monster mission!

The game is much easier now than when I started. I'm so glad I no longer have to stare at a spell book to med, and it doesn't bother me in the least that no player has to go through that for 35 levels. I'm also glad hell levels are not so hellish, and I'm glad no one ever has to experience what we did.

You see, it doesn't lessen MY achievements because others coming along behind me have it easy. I may not think everything should be handed to everyone, but I sure do understand how frustrating it is for new players and why some might feel they should be given more than they are.

Golthine Gettinwood
12-11-2005, 08:22 PM
/agrees with Taeyn. If you accomplished something, great. I personally don't care what others have to go through, or the ease they aquire it. Just yesterday, I got my RZ flag, and stepped into elementals. This is ONE YEAR after needing only RZ and Sol Ro for said access. And after watching people who had just started playing getting gimped into Time and getting into what used to be the servers top guilds, who needed to restock members due to EQ2 and WoW, I stopped caring.
Hours spent on Veeshan's Peak key for parts, and the always unenviable part of trying to find Trak up, as almost all the Dragons are permacamped, and an open raid for the Shade, and I am in VP...BY MYSELF!!!
Ditto on VT key, minus dragons, cleared VT twice, now guild never goes back.
What's my point with all the rambling? Everyone complains that they have made the game to easy, but so what? Sure the old days where fun (I have only been playing for three years, so I can only speak for myself), and we all had to do stuff no one does now. I wanderered around in my newbie armor for 33 lvls, saving money for spells, and camping for the equipment I really wanted. I personally remember camping that hammer that Firebrand drops in EW for days, and how great I felt once I got it. I used to envy all the "ubers" and their gear, but I knew that I wouldn't have the time available to join one of the top end guilds, as work and family takes up most of my time, making me a more casual playstyle person. With the guild I am in now, yes, I will get to see Time, which a long time ago seemed impossible. We may be a family guild, but we did RZ with 24 people, which may not seem like much of an accomplishment, but I felt good about it. Which is the point: If you are proud of what you do in the game, than that's all that matters. If someone else gets everything hand fed to them, oh well. I at least know I worked for what i got. I think people tend to forget Everquest IS A GAME (there, I said it!!) Games are meant to be fun, and when they stop being fun, they stop being played.

Fenier
12-12-2005, 12:10 AM
Why should they struggle to get anywhere when just about everyone else is end game and "has it all"? It's no different than real life haves and the have nots. The haves think they are better than the have nots, deserve preferential treatment, and are angered when the have nots dare intrude in their world. The have nots want what the haves have, want it now, and feel the world owes it to them.


I disagree with the first statement, at least in my own personal case.

I am flagged for everything outside of the Demiplane. I have keys for any locked zone. I have seen alot of the high end game, and would probly still be there had it not been for a recent job change. Quite Frankly I have worked pretty hard for what I have and what I have seen. Do I deserve more then another player? No.

Do I deserve more then someone who does NOTHING to help themselves? I sure do. Is that Elitist? Maybe. I do not play EQ to have things given to me. If its not available, I will earn it - or I don't deserve to have it.

I do not babysit, I do not hand hold. Its basically you can do whats expected or you can't. If you try - on your own, I will help you. I will not force people to excell. It has to be a personal choice. When I was in a raid guild I voted no on more then one applicant becuase they had no drive to do what was expected, they wanted the guild to hand them the flags, groups for shards/signets, etc etc. Sorry, no dice.

Likewise, if the person went out of thier way to MAKE the groups to ensure they could meet guild reqs, I would gladly assist them in reaching that point and support them during the app process.

Summary: Lazy People Suck, and Get No Votes.

No one in EQ owes you anything. Quite honestly, if you can't pull your weight for whatever level content you are doing, you are apt to be cast aside as far as pickup groups / guilds go. I see nothing wrong with that.

Progression is easier for ANY kind of player then ever before with a bit of time and work. Unlike years ago, there is No excuse for being unable to pull your own for whatever area you are choosing to hunt in.

Gear Lacking? LDoN, DoN, DoD or make your own with tradeskills.
AA Lacking? ANY zone which is at least light blue to you.
Levels Lacking? Monster Missions, Normal Grinding, etc ec. It might be slightly harder to find groups at lower levels, but it is no where near impossiable.

I think, at least in America, we have grown so used to having things NOW, that it is finally starting to show up in Online Gaming as more people gain access to computers.

Quite Personally - I don't like it, Hence this rant.

-Fenier

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
12-12-2005, 08:51 AM
I disagree with the first statement, at least in my own personal case.
I didn't say I agreed with it. But I understand where the attitude comes from. SOE boards attract the disgruntled and those who feel the need to vent. I wouldn't base my impression of EQ players on what I read on the SOE boards. I think you'll find the majority of players do expect to work. But when you give someone something, then take it away, expect a lot of venting.

Levels Lacking? Monster Missions, Normal Grinding, etc ec. It might be slightly harder to find groups at lower levels, but it is no where near impossiable.
Funny how you list Monster Missions as the first option in attaining levels :lmao:

Fenier
12-12-2005, 09:25 AM
first option in attaining levels :lmao:

There is a drastically large differance in one here or there, then living in them for 70 levels. The concept is not a bad idea, abuse of that concept is.

However, people are prone to abuse them, which is the problem. Its a flaw in human nature. /shrug.

-Fenier

Nimchip
12-12-2005, 10:36 AM
This is one of the reasons I love tradeskills. It's WORK, it's hard, it's tedious and it's a pain in the ass. Yet when you reach 300 the feeling of completion is very cool (well like almost everything else in EQ). Too bad they are making it easier too.

spanky_p
12-16-2005, 02:26 PM
This is one of the reasons I love tradeskills. It's WORK, it's hard, it's tedious and it's a pain in the ass. Yet when you reach 300 the feeling of completion is very cool (well like almost everything else in EQ). Too bad they are making it easier too.

How are they making tradeskiling easier? I myself don't see how it is becoming easier since you have to farm so much stuff these days. I have skils in at least 3 things on 3 different toons but t oget to 300, I agree it's work and time consuming.

I agree that people do get things alot easier than we did back in the day. I remember when you had to di a lot of fighting to get to the Dragon in Sol B in Lavastorm. I remember having to swim in Lava to get to a secret place that still not many people know about just to get a nice drop. I remember Fighting all the way to The big Dragon and having to have about 9 to 10 groups split up into 3 small raids, then go in 1 at a time to beat him down some till they all dead then the next group pull him away from the dead and the third group go in and rez and buff them while the other group gets beat to hell. Finally, /random 100 with all those people there over the loot. Then doing it again the next few days when he respawned. Now that was some fun times.

I now have a friend that is just starting to play EQ and she likes it. She did the mm's from 10 to 16 and said thats enough of that I am not learning anything from it and I agreed. She could not cast a spell for all the fizzles.

So now I started a new toon and take her to some of the stuff we used to do when I was that low. She enjoys it and keeps asking for stuff harder. I guess I should not have twinked her. Just wait till I take her to dsp where she can be blinded, hehe. So much to show her and so few levels to do it in.

sliggoth
12-16-2005, 03:20 PM
They keep adding new recipes for tradeskills. A few of these turn out to be much easier than earlier paths. That doesnt mean that all trades are easy now, but certainly many now have much easier chunks.

Yes a lot of stuff needs to be farmed...but that has always been the case with tradeskills. Do many of the new recipes require farmed components? Yes, but if they are easier to farm than the old limited routes-- that still makes then easier.

Baking has had a lot of nice new adds since the old days, and brewing.

Smithing and tailoring got some big path boosts with Don, and tailoring also got another nice recipe to 254 with the entrails recipe from Dod. Easy no, easier yes.

Sliggoth, druid/ traderskiller of 7th Hammer

(250 in all trades back when that was the limit, 300 in all now)

Dayuna
12-16-2005, 06:13 PM
Tradeskill UI 4tw

Woodelfous
12-16-2005, 08:04 PM
Things have gottem much easier. I had a no stat leather BP that some orc droped in some newbie zone up untill lvl 54.

Grenoble
12-19-2005, 09:10 AM
For that matter, I remember dragging 2 sets of gear around, one for stats, one for resists. Ugh.

Vekx
12-19-2005, 05:00 PM
For that matter, I remember dragging 2 sets of gear around, one for stats, one for resists. Ugh.

/nods remembering those days

Dari
12-20-2005, 10:07 AM
I wore one set, carried two sets. One for stats, one for resists and one for looks!


And I completely agree with Fen. I too am bothered by the folks saying they want the same stuff as the rest of the players, only they don't want to work for it like the others have.
"Ubers" or "haves" don't generally have a problem with someone EARNING their way to the same levels. It's those who are carried along by a guild with no real effort on their part that garner no respect or the ones who cry that they want access to the flagged zones without going through the efforts of flagging that irritate people.

Beffas
12-20-2005, 04:20 PM
I agree with Fen 100%.

This whole nation-especially our schools-are being dumbed down and it is bleeding over into other parts of our society, and unfortunately gaming.

I also love Tradeskills because you take the time and effort and actually are rewarded with skill increases.

This won't change anytime soon I fear....it also happens heavily in the Guilds. We booted a number of people a few months back from Disturbed Remains because they were demanding we tailor our activities to a few specific people's wants rather than general targets to benefit the guild as a whole. We did try to make some separate smaller events for the whiners but they weren't satisfied. So when they tried to split the guild----BOOT!

Happy Holidays to all!

Stumps_Bertox
12-24-2005, 01:23 AM
I dont think its bad thing really, I like that things are easier and I dont think anything unbalancing will ever truely happen in EQ (at least for longer than a patch)
Between MPG Trials, DoN and DoDH a player can get very well equipped without ever raiding, and I think thats great. If EQ is going to continue to survive, it needs to appeal to the masses and continue to challenge the hardcore raiders-lets face it, other mmorpg's out there are easy as heck.

Kamion
12-24-2005, 11:36 AM
The way the one-group side of the game is setup atm, a lot of the stuff isn't really open for non-raid geared people to beat. However, there is a unwritten path of progression through the one group gear and it is possible for just about anyone who's willing to put forth the effort to get through. I know of groups that get a full set of augs / runes from rifts to be able to do mpg and ikk trials, than they get a full set of gear from trials, than they're able to do dodh trials on hard. Of course that's an over generaliztion, but that's generally what I obsverse (and loosly how I gear up my own alts.)

I think a big misconception some people have is that raid guilds don't have to work hard for their stuff. Sure, when a new expansion comes out we'll be getting 300+ hp loot from it within a week, but that's because we put so much work and effort towards raiding in the past that we were more than prepared for the expansion when it came out. My assumption to the reason behind is is that non-raid people have friends who app raid guilds and get high end loot within a few weeks (even though that person didn't help the guild get to that point.)

Point being, I don't believe that there's anything (one groupable) that's truly out of reach to anyone. Maybe ikkinz trials during GoD, but not DoDH trials. But if people aren't willing to put forth as much effort that raid guilds put towards raiding to their grouping, they won't get very far.