View Full Forums : Respect for all...


Remi
12-21-2005, 10:16 AM
I'm wondering why it's okay for folks to make fun of and denigrate Christians who celebrate Christmas, including the attached traditions (whether developed 2,000 years ago or 200)? Is it because those folks are not Christian? Is it because it's the popular thing to do? If it's such a fun thing to do, why am I not seeing similar teasing and insulting remarks about the celebration of Jewish holy days, or Muslim? If Aidon can be offended by simply being wished a Merry Christmas, how can it be appropriate to be so publicly insulting and belittling about how Christians may celebrate Christmas?

As I understand the U.S. Constitution, the founders ensured the free exercise of religion, not that we would be free from all religion. I have no problem with the Government not establishing a religion. I do have a problem with individual folks who find pleasure in being publicly demeaning about another's religious celebrations, and wonder at their motives and what they hope to gain from doing it.

Aidon
12-21-2005, 10:38 AM
Because Christians have been attempting to force feed their religion on non-christians for the past 1500 years.

Because you don't see Jews threatening to boycott or sue stores that don't wish people Happy Hannukah.

Because Hindus don't promote an idea of a Hindu America, like Christians continually insist we're a Christian America.

Because its not Buddhists trying to teach our children theobiology and requiring intervention by the Court.

Christians get made fun of by non-christians because its the only defense we have against Christianity with its majority and historical propensity for slaughtering or torturing those who aren't Christian.

Oh..and because Christians just do stupid things sometimes like complain about the commercialism of Xmas...and then threaten to boycott stores that don't wish them Merry Christmas.

I'm sorry, but that deserves to be made fun of ;)

Arienne
12-21-2005, 10:46 AM
I suppose if you are looking for a discussion, this is the place to post your question. But if it really bugs you then you need to send a PM to an admin rather than posting here. I wouldn't, however, recommend sending the PM to Aidon. :D

Thicket Tundrabog
12-21-2005, 10:52 AM
A lot of it has to do with 'icon toppling'. People will naturally belittle people or organizations that have status and influence. They critizise government, large businesses, organized religion, unions etc. The criticism is often associated with intolerance and prejudice.

When it comes to anti-Christian sentiment, the criticism comes primarily from non-religious groups. For example, the current issue of using the word 'Christmas' is primarily an issue for non-religious people. In Canada, both Muslim and Jewish national bodies have gone on record as supporting the continued use of the word Christmas and Christian symbols in Canadian society. These two religions know what religious intolerance and prejudice is about.

Remi
12-21-2005, 10:54 AM
I am actually looking for a discussion... I'm seeing the current treatment of or attitude toward Christians as one symptom of a larger issue.

As I understand what you are saying Aidon is because Christians persecuted others hundreds of years ago, it is right and proper to give current day Christians some pay back?

Fenlayen
12-21-2005, 10:56 AM
Because Christians have been attempting to force feed their religion on non-christians for the past 1500 years.

Because you don't see Jews threatening to boycott or sue stores that don't wish people Happy Hannukah.

Because Hindus don't promote an idea of a Hindu America, like Christians continually insist we're a Christian America.

Because its not Buddhists trying to teach our children theobiology and requiring intervention by the Court.

Christians get made fun of by non-christians because its the only defense we have against Christianity with its majority and historical propensity for slaughtering or torturing those who aren't Christian.

Oh..and because Christians just do stupid things sometimes like complain about the commercialism of Xmas...and then threaten to boycott stores that don't wish them Merry Christmas.

I'm sorry, but that deserves to be made fun of ;)

Quoted it all because it's all true :bubbrubb2

Stormhaven
12-21-2005, 10:59 AM
I'm one of those people who does not have a religion, and quite honestly I believe that most of the people who do are a bit wonkers. Kevin Smith's Dogma represented my thoughts pretty well, I have no problem with people who have personal faith in a god or gods, but it's when they all start to get together and form a religion that every thing goes to hell (pun intentional).

Jinjre
12-21-2005, 11:05 AM
I think part of the 'making fun of' comes from the Hypocrisy we're hearing and being bombarded with regularly.

Two contrasting examples:

I work with a man who is a devout Catholic. He doesn't ever say that I'm going to burn in hell for not believing in his god. He contributes to the community, he works with Habitat for Humanity, he doesn't condemn people of other religions. He is one of the most tolerant people I've ever met. I believe that he is what Christianity is *supposed* to be. I do not mock him, nor his actions, nor his beliefs.

Then I hear on the radio, a snippet of a local neo-con christian screamer (there are also liberal screamers, so it's not that I think only christians can get on the airwaves and scream idiotic slogans). She said (paraphrasing) "What is so wrong about torturing terrorists? Us - good, them- bad" And all I could think of was "Yeah lady, Who Would Jesus Torture?"

The mockery, at least on my end, comes from the appalling hypocrisy being spouted by people who claim to represent the Christian faith. "Who would Jesus assassinate?" "Who would Jesus blow up?" The Christians who call for the bombing of abortion clinics and the murdering of doctors who perform abortions are hypocrites of the most vile sort.

And yes. That deserves mocking.

Aidon
12-21-2005, 11:06 AM
A lot of it has to do with 'icon toppling'. People will naturally belittle people or organizations that have status and influence. They critizise government, large businesses, organized religion, unions etc. The criticism is often associated with intolerance and prejudice.

When it comes to anti-Christian sentiment, the criticism comes primarily from non-religious groups. For example, the current issue of using the word 'Christmas' is primarily an issue for non-religious people. In Canada, both Muslim and Jewish national bodies have gone on record as supporting the continued use of the word Christmas and Christian symbols in Canadian society. These two religions know what religious intolerance and prejudice is about.

That's because in Canada, both Muslims and Jews realize they are living in a Christian nation and can't complain about it.

I mean, Catholic schools are still the only parochial schools which don't have to pay taxes.

Remi
12-21-2005, 11:10 AM
Perhaps I should state my beliefs so that this thread does not become personal. I was raised as a christian protestant. I left religion behind approximately 20 years ago. I do not attend any church. I believe religions are man made doctrines created to fill a void in humanity; teach morals, values and ethics so that we could advance as civilizations; and (unfortunately) have been used for power and undue influence. I still have faith in God, and believe in Jesus, however, while my faith was found in christianity, religion does not maintain it. People (of all faiths) around me do and the blessings I have received and experienced.

Thus, my question is not so much personal as I'm truly trying to understand what I perceive to be a double standard and why that double standard is okay.

Aidon
12-21-2005, 11:11 AM
I am actually looking for a discussion... I'm seeing the current treatment of or attitude toward Christians as one symptom of a larger issue.

As I understand what you are saying Aidon is because Christians persecuted others hundreds of years ago, it is right and proper to give current day Christians some pay back?

No, payback would be rounding up your children and forcing them to go to schools which teach Native American animism.

Payback would be marching an army on a bastion city of Christianity and forcing them to permit bigamy.

Payback would be forcing all the little Christian kids to sing 'Holiday' programs which have 12 Hannukah songs and then throwing in Jingle Bells and proclaiming it religiously tolerant.

We're just having a harmless chuckle at your expense with others who fear Christian intolerance as well.

Arienne
12-21-2005, 11:18 AM
I don't have a problem with ANY religion as long as it doesn't have a negative effect on me and others I care about. I will poke fun at religion when it goes off the deep end (aliens from outer space, anyone?). BUT to me, (and I think most non-religious) the assumption that there is an ethereal being in the sky watching over the earth is as off the wall as aliens. I will give religion the respect of my silence as long as it doesn't step on my toes or cause me to outright laugh so hard tears run down my cheeks.


In this world, anything that doesn't match another's beliefs, whether those beliefs center around religion, cars, teaching or anything else, is going to have to dodge potshots of non-believers. IF you are unwaivering in your beliefs, those shots should roll off your back. I have found that it's usually those with doubt who protest the loudest. :)

Remi
12-21-2005, 01:13 PM
IF you are unwaivering in your beliefs, those shots should roll off your back. I have found that it's usually those with doubt who protest the loudest. LOL I'd imagine that any attacker would love this theory. It certainly puts the victim of the attack into an instant lose/lose situation, unable to defend against any attacks.

In other words, You want me (or whoever) to allow you (or whoever) to attack without limits. If I protest your attacks, I'm not strong enough in the faith (or whatever) that you attack, thus proving your point! Only if I don't protest (thereby allowing you to make unlimited attacks at me) am I deemed of sufficient faith by the unbelievers. Isn't that a little like the old witch hunt trials? When we toss you over the bridge, if you float to the top (live), you must be a witch so we must burn you. If you drown (die), only then were you deemed innocent. :D

Remi
12-21-2005, 01:23 PM
We're just having a harmless chuckle at your expense with others who fear Christian intolerance as well. But is it really that harmless? If it can be done to Christians, then does it not also open the door to Christians being insulting and belittling of other faiths? Like mocking of the wearing of Yarmulkas. Was that harmless fun when done by Christians?

What current Christian intolerance?* Many here say that Christians are the majority, yet is not every other faith allowed and accepted, at least here in the US? It seems lately that all religions are allowed and accepted except for Christianity. Which begs the question of who is really being intolerant today?

*(I do recognize that Christianity is not monolithic, but trying to keep things relatively simple.)

Jinjre
12-21-2005, 01:35 PM
I fully allow and accept Christians, except, as Arienne pointed out, when they step on my toes.

I have never had a Jew come to my door telling me to convert to some branch of Judism. Nor a Muslim. Nor a Buddhist. Nor any ANY other religion than Christians. Taking up my time, interupting my day, and otherwise being just generally annoying.

I've never seen a "Yawah is my co-pilot" bumper sticker. I've never seen a black-line Buddha plastered to the back of someone's car. I've not seen stars of David light up with gaudy electric lights in the main square downtown.

The backlash I feel tends to be that *if* a religion is going to be so intrusive as to place its religious icons all over everything, the least they can do is not be hypocritical about it. The guy with the Ixoye fish on his car who cuts me off in traffic, THEN flips me off...yeah, a paragon of Christ's teachings that one is.

It isn't the religion which is the problem. Lord, protect me from thy followers.

Stormhaven
12-21-2005, 01:45 PM
I've seen Buddha stickers, dunno if they had anything to do with Buddhism, but...

I've also seen the light up Star of David's as well as some pretty gaudy menorahs. Maybe not in the city squares, but quite a few businesses are trying to kowtow to all religions so you'll see the Star next to the tree, next to the Happy Kwanzaa signs - and I'm not talking about just in Hallmark stores, I'm talking about in office buildings.

Aidon
12-21-2005, 01:46 PM
But is it really that harmless? If it can be done to Christians, then does it not also open the door to Christians being insulting and belittling of other faiths? Like mocking of the wearing of Yarmulkas. Was that harmless fun when done by Christians?

Christians already do. Non-Christians are innundated with a constant bombardment of Christianity and the bemusement of Christians. I cannot count the times I've had people apologize to me because I'm going to burn in hell for being Jewish.

What current Christian intolerance?* Many here say that Christians are the majority, yet is not every other faith allowed and accepted, at least here in the US? It seems lately that all religions are allowed and accepted except for Christianity. Which begs the question of who is really being intolerant today?

All religions are allowed and accepted...until such point as they try to impose their beliefs on others. In the past decade, its become a very real fear that the Christian Conservative movement will return us to the bad old days when it was socially acceptable to exclude those who weren't good Christian folk.

Scirocco
12-21-2005, 02:02 PM
As I understand what you are saying Aidon is because Christians persecuted others hundreds of years ago, it is right and proper to give current day Christians some pay back?


I think Aidon's point, and it's a good one, is that some Christians are stepping over the line right now. That's what opens them up for ridicule.

Panamah
12-21-2005, 02:04 PM
Well, its the Christians who howl this time of the year and say "It's my holiday! Say Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays or I'll boycott and sue you!" who paint large red targets on their mid-sections and should have signs on them that say "Ridicule me". So one oblidges.

Besides, I've been twisting Xmas caroles since my brothers taught me to sing, "O come let us ignore him... Christ I'm bored". We used to belt that out in church, no one ever noticed but it sure made us laugh.

vestix
12-21-2005, 02:13 PM
Christmas is a big target, so it takes lots of shots.

Cantatus
12-21-2005, 02:20 PM
I fully allow and accept Christians, except, as Arienne pointed out, when they step on my toes.

That pretty much sums it up for me as well. I have no problem with Christianity or Christians in general. Most of my family is Catholic, and I have several Christian friends as well. I only have a problem with Christians that want to seemingly turn our country into a Christian theocracy or want to convert me. Maybe it's a matter of "Leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone."

After all, I wasn't told I was damned by a Jewish teacher in kindergarten, nor throughout my entire life. I wasn't told by a Buddhist that he would no longer hang out with me unless I went to his youth group. I haven't had Muslims come to my door trying to get me to attend their services. etc. It even goes beyond just a personal level when you consider their involvement in the government nowadays.

As far as the whole "War on Christmas" thing goes, Christians are the ones that should be upset about that honestly. Gibson and O'Reilly are exploiting the holidays to "rally the troops" so to speak. Nothing that's happened this year is any different than any previous years. For example, the presidential card is very similar to every one Bush has sent out. None of them said "Merry Christmas," nor did they have Christian symbols on them, and all of them has passages from the Old Testament. Yet, this year it's being said that Bush was somehow forced by liberals to change his card because liberals are trying to erase Christmas from the calendars. They're outright twisting the truth or making up lies. O'Reilly and his ilk are exploiting this time of the year - and Christmas in particular - for ratings, book sales, and power. In my opinion, Christians should be lining up with us heathens in disgust rather than protesting Walmart and Target.

Aidon
12-21-2005, 02:27 PM
Hey, Canta, you realize your guild has new forums? =P

And you should come play EQ 2, you can heckle me on the alliance channel with Ginya and Red.

Arienne
12-21-2005, 02:42 PM
LOL I'd imagine that any attacker would love this theory. It certainly puts the victim of the attack into an instant lose/lose situation, unable to defend against any attacks.

In other words, You want me (or whoever) to allow you (or whoever) to attack without limits. If I protest your attacks, I'm not strong enough in the faith (or whatever) that you attack, thus proving your point! Only if I don't protest (thereby allowing you to make unlimited attacks at me) am I deemed of sufficient faith by the unbelievers. Isn't that a little like the old witch hunt trials? When we toss you over the bridge, if you float to the top (live), you must be a witch so we must burn you. If you drown (die), only then were you deemed innocent. :DWow! You read a LOT into that brief statement.

What was meant was simply this:
Those who make the most noise, are never done until they have the last word, who don't discuss but rather raise their voice higher and higher to drown out what the other individual is saying... are usually trying more to convince THEMSELVES than anyone else.

Panamah
12-21-2005, 02:46 PM
This so called "war on christians" is utter nonsense. Christians keep trying to portray themselves as martyrs when they're making war on secular society.

Cantatus
12-21-2005, 02:48 PM
Hey, Canta, you realize your guild has new forums? =P

And you should come play EQ 2, you can heckle me on the alliance channel with Ginya and Red.

Haha, we have had for like a year and a half, maybe more. Guess I forgot to update my sig. :o I've been meaning to get a new one, but I'm just so lazy. :D

Heckling you would be quite fun, but I'm not sure even that is worth giving SOE $15 a month. :p

Anka
12-21-2005, 06:26 PM
It's really different in the UK. Christians generally keep their nose out of politics (ignore NI for a moment, that's sectarian). Personal morality doesn't dominate politics and we get steamed up about taxes or the EU instead. There is no anti-christian backlash. All the potential problems with a mingling of church, state, and monarchy are pragmatically hidden by each keeping to their own domain.

US christians really are far more aggressive in their political influence than UK christians. It might make the churches stronger but in my opinion it makes politics weaker.

Panamah
12-21-2005, 06:51 PM
Man, that would be so refreshing, Anka. *jealous*

MadroneDorf
12-21-2005, 07:14 PM
as others have said I'd say a big reason for it is that Christians, more then other religions push their beliefs onto others, government and society as a whole a lot more then other religions, and as such, they make themselfs a target as people are pushing back.

I know lots of great christians people, but I also know a lot of christians who are pardon the expression but "holier then thou" about it, generally speaking I rarely see people of other religions do it.

Cantatus
12-21-2005, 08:16 PM
It's really different in the UK. Christians generally keep their nose out of politics (ignore NI for a moment, that's sectarian). Personal morality doesn't dominate politics and we get steamed up about taxes or the EU instead. There is no anti-christian backlash. All the potential problems with a mingling of church, state, and monarchy are pragmatically hidden by each keeping to their own domain.

US christians really are far more aggressive in their political influence than UK christians. It might make the churches stronger but in my opinion it makes politics weaker.

See, that's sort of amazing to me. That's the way it should be, but many of the political Christians here would tell you that they need to do this to preserve the morals of this country and keep this country Christian "as it was established." Of course, the funny thing is that America wasn't established that way, and England actually has an established church.

I believe it's Reagan we have to blame for this, at least to this degree. Of course, people like Pat Robertson play a big part, and I still can't fathom how people follow that guy...

B_Delacroix
12-22-2005, 09:57 AM
I am of the group that Cantatus and others are in. However, I can understand how it bothers you. If someone suddenly said all red heads were baby eaters and thus I must be I'd be a bit bothered, too. Its really kind of childish that because some outspoken people who are probably generally thought of as being complete loons are cause enough to persecute an entire population. Then the argument is made that if you stand up and say that it isn't always the case, you are defending yourself and therefore must be guilty because you are trying to defend yourself. Its a never ending cycle. In a few years, some other population will be the target of ridcule.

Also, as Garibaldi said "People like to see things ‘fall apart and explode from the inside out, and right now, we’re that something’." Right now, Christians are that something.

Reidwen
12-22-2005, 10:01 AM
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

Can anyone name that commentator?

B_Delacroix
12-22-2005, 10:02 AM
"We should kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity."

Can anyone name that commentator?

I don't know. If I had to guess its Pat Roberts. Nonetheless, it has to be one of the loons I refered to above.

Arienne
12-22-2005, 10:22 AM
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

Can anyone name that commentator?Ann Coulter http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter.shtml

Though it could have been said by any number of "righteous" leaders throughout history. My first guess was an early Pope.

Aidon
12-22-2005, 10:25 AM
Ann Coulter.

That paragon of Conservative Intellectualism.

Panamah
12-22-2005, 10:25 AM
If someone suddenly said all red heads were baby eaters and thus I must be I'd be a bit bothered, too.
Ah, good analogy except it needs a small tweak. Here's the twist, the Red Heads suddenly become extremely influential in the country, due to electing one of their own. They raise a fuss that Clairol sells blonde and brunette hair coloring and boycott and threaten to sue. Meanwhile, they pack school boards with Red Heads and start to require that everyone must learn that Red Hair is the only true hair color. The Blondes and Brunettes begin to feel a little oppressed and start to sneak up on the most obnoxious of the Red Heads and give them mohawks as they lay sleeping. It becomes a national past time to poke fun at the Red Heads because they're being so obnoxious about their silly hair color. The AHLU takes the Red Heads to court and sues them because of the separation of follicle and state. The poor Red Heads feel persecuted... "Woe is us! What have we ever done but be born with Red Hair? Everyone is against us!"

Aidon
12-22-2005, 10:25 AM
Damn you Arienne.

Reidwen
12-22-2005, 10:42 AM
Ann is a shining example of why people of other faiths look crosseyed at Christians. She does nothing but add to the problem with her firebreathing. You can kill your corner insurgent and do less damage than that woman.

Arienne
12-22-2005, 11:45 AM
Damn you Arienne.Bah! I've been dammed by better than YOU! :D

Jinjre
12-23-2005, 04:10 PM
Ann is a shining example of why people of other faiths look crosseyed at Christians.

Let's not forget Dr. Laura....whooooeeeeeee, there's a harbinger of doom if I've ever heard one.

Panamah
12-23-2005, 04:19 PM
Except Dr. Laura is Jewish.

Aidon
12-23-2005, 06:33 PM
Please don't remind me heh.

Cantatus
12-23-2005, 09:57 PM
She's available! You guys would make a cute couple! :devil-lau

Jinjre
12-24-2005, 09:18 AM
She's just downright frightening.

LauranCoromell
12-24-2005, 01:28 PM
I agree with you Remi, we come from different backgrounds and have different belief systems but we all "live" here together on the board. The least we can do is to show respect for one another by not hittng so close to home as someone's deeply held beliefs.

Jinjre
12-24-2005, 02:43 PM
The Off Topic forum has, for as long as I've lurked, or posted here, been a place where people challenge each other's deeply held beliefs. It is not an attack (though sometimes it walks a thin line), but a place where people pose questions which are designed to make all of us here stop, and really think, about our beliefs.

There are many times I have found myself agreeing with people I usually wouldn't agree with, including Aidon and Fyyr, because, in certain posts, they've made arguments which I found compelling.

I don't think Remi was saying that on this board we attack people with different belief systems, I think she was genuinely curious about why there is such a backlash against Christians recently. Of course, that's only my interpretation of what she posted here and certainly, she'd be the person to ask if I'm on the mark or not.

LauranCoromell
12-24-2005, 03:24 PM
I'm wondering why it's okay for folks to make fun of and denigrate Christians who celebrate Christmas, including the attached traditions (whether developed 2,000 years ago or 200)? Is it because those folks are not Christian? Is it because it's the popular thing to do? If it's such a fun thing to do, why am I not seeing similar teasing and insulting remarks about the celebration of Jewish holy days, or Muslim? If Aidon can be offended by simply being wished a Merry Christmas, how can it be appropriate to be so publicly insulting and belittling about how Christians may celebrate Christmas?

From reading the part of Remi's post that I've quoted above I did feel that she was talking about something posted on this board. If that is not the case and I'm mistaken in my interputation of her post, I'll offer my apologies. And rest assured if it were Adion (mentioned only because he was mentioned in Remi's post) or any other poster who felt they needed to make that post expressing a desire for respect for one another's religious beliefs, I would have said the same thing only substituting their name, as I feel that all of our beliefs and feelings are equally important and valid.

Anka
12-24-2005, 03:56 PM
I don't think Remi was saying that on this board we attack people with different belief systems, I think she was genuinely curious about why there is such a backlash against Christians recently. Of course, that's only my interpretation of what she posted here and certainly, she'd be the person to ask if I'm on the mark or not.

Actually, there are a few remarks going both ways which can be a bit harsh. I'm sure in most cases it isn't malicious or personal, but to my perception there seems to be an undercurrent of a secular vs christian battle always lurking below the surface. It's almost as if the very few issues that separate people are the ones used to define attitudes and prejudices, when there's really no need for it to happen.

Perhaps it's just Newton's third law applied to politics.

Panamah
12-24-2005, 05:19 PM
I agree with you Remi, we come from different backgrounds and have different belief systems but we all "live" here together on the board. The least we can do is to show respect for one another by not hittng so close to home as someone's deeply held beliefs.
If ones beliefs aren't deeply held enough to take some hits perhaps they're not really all that deeply held? I don't see why one should expect their religious beliefs are sacrosant and immune to being questioned when pretty much everyone expects all their other beliefs to come under that sort of scrutiny.

Personally, I come here to debate my deeply held beliefs, theological, scatological or illogical.

Arienne
12-24-2005, 05:44 PM
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Panamah
Personally, I come here to debate my deeply held beliefs, theological, scatological or illogical.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Not me! I just come to see what Panamah is wearing each day!

But actually... I posted early in the thread that if she was complaining about the forum that she needed to PM a moderator, but if she was asking for discussion this was the place to post. She responded that she was looking for discussion about what was happening in general.

Panamah
12-24-2005, 07:21 PM
The faded, torn leoppard print night gown today, Arienne, and pink fluffy slippers, hair in curlers. :p

Just kidding, my nightware is actually worse than that.

Alei
12-24-2005, 09:52 PM
That almost makes no sense to me. That if someone cannot tolerate a couple hits to their beliefs that they (perhaps) are not that deeply rooted. Makes more sense to me that if you believe in something enough that you would defend those beliefs.. religious or otherwise.

Fyyr Lu'Storm
12-24-2005, 10:00 PM
When non-Christians encounter Christians...

...this is sometimes what we encounter...

http://media.putfile.com/Lady-Goes-Crazy-on-Trading-Spouses



Sometimes, you Christians really do look like that.

Really.

Cantatus
12-24-2005, 10:11 PM
That almost makes no sense to me. That if someone cannot tolerate a couple hits to their beliefs that they (perhaps) are not that deeply rooted. Makes more sense to me that if you believe in something enough that you would defend those beliefs.. religious or otherwise.

I think that's exactly what Panamah is saying. You should be able to "take a few hits" and be able to debate your beliefs.

oddjob1244
12-24-2005, 11:28 PM
I love how all christians get lumped into this, oh well. /smile /nod

Sometimes, you Christians really do look like that.

hehe it goes both ways don't worry =)

Remi
12-25-2005, 01:58 AM
It's been suggested that if a person's faith can't take a few hits, that faith is not strong. I agree. However, it's not unreasonable to expect that those taking those hits to fight back. To deny one from saying "Merry Christmas" is more than a hit. It's denying them the expression of their religious celebration. Exploring the basis for religious traditions is different from mocking the usage of those traditions based on their history. But I have to ask, who really is more insecure in their faith, the one saying Merry Christmas, or the one offended by such wishes?

My understanding of the US Constitution is that it granted each of us freedom to practice our religions, not to prohibit such celebrations. Some here would prohibit individuals from celebrating by denying them their right to wish others a Merry Christmas or mock their traditions in celebrating Christmas. In another thread, there were cross-accusations that the two primary political parties were intolerant. Again, that begs the question, which is the more intolerant, the one wishing another a Merry Christmas, or the one offended by such wishes and who seeks to prevent any open display of Christmas.

Some here have mocked some of the traditions of Christmas, including the decorated tree or Santa Claus, tracing their roots to pagan celebrations or more recent history, as if that mattered. When my sister in law joined our family, she taught us to hold hands when saying the dinner prayer. This is not something my family ever did before. However now, it is part of our family tradition. It doesn't matter that it was brought in by someone new to the family or not of our blood. It was an idea that we liked and adopted and is now our own. The same can be said of the tree, lights, or exchange of presents for the celebration of Christmas. Sure the celebration of Christmas has been commercialized. That's capitalism. :P But, that still does not take away from the true celebration enjoyed by Christians, those who go to Church, and those who travel to be together with their families.

I've read the explanations for the mocking of Christians. It seems primarily based on the actions of some extremists. However, in other threads, it's been said to not judge all Muslims by the actions of a few extremists. Not all Christians are alike either, and I would suggest the same respect expected to be given to the non-extremist Muslims should also apply to non-extremist Christians. I don't think all Christians deserve to by typecast or demeaned because of the actions of a few extremists.

In another thread, Aidon claims that Christians and Jews don't believe in the same God. I beg to differ. Christians pray to the God of David. Christians share the belief in the God of the Old Testament with Jews. It is only the Christian belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God, and the existence of the Holy Spirit (aka Soul), arising from the New Testament, where the two religions seperate. Note that I did not say that Jesus or the Holy Spirit are Gods. I don't even think the Catholics consider them as gods, but rather as part of a Holy Trinity, which is different. Of all peoples, I would expect the Jews who have suffered extreme religious persecution to be the first ones to stand up and defend the faiths of others, not to be insulting and offended by such other faiths or to seek to make those practicing other religions to hide behind closed doors in their celebrations. But then, not all Jews are alike either and I don't assume all Jews react or believe as Aidon has expressed here.

I don't mind at all, and in fact have been interested in the disection of the Christmas traditions here. I've learned some new things and always enjoy that. What has bothered me has been the demeaning attitude, even if couched in humor, and the lack of respect shown for Christians in general, the typecasting of all Christians as being the same as the extremists. It lacks intellectual honesty, and most of the people posting here are better than that. Consider it a request for mutual respect for the other side, whether it's a discussion about religion or otherwise.

With that said, I wish each and every one of you a Happy Holiday, and to those celebrating Christmas, a very Merry Christmas! (( hugs ))

Cantatus
12-25-2005, 05:15 AM
I love how all christians get lumped into this, oh well. /smile /nod


Err... no... read the first few pages of this thread. Several of us have specified that it's not all Christians.

Some here have mocked some of the traditions of Christmas, including the decorated tree or Santa Claus, tracing their roots to pagan celebrations or more recent history, as if that mattered.

Pointing out that Christmas traditions have roots further back than Christmas itself, isn't exactly "mocking" it in my opinion. It's stating facts. ;)

Tinsi
12-25-2005, 06:34 AM
IWhen my sister in law joined our family, she taught us to hold hands when saying the dinner prayer. This is not something my family ever did before. However now, it is part of our family tradition. It doesn't matter that it was brought in by someone new to the family or not of our blood. It was an idea that we liked and adopted and is now our own.

One of the things you'll notice, if you look for it, is that these adoptions do not always get presented as "this is our tradition TOO". Once adopted, there's a nasty tendency to present them as UNIQUELY Christian. It can be a celebration, or it can be something more derogatory, such as the idea that common decency and morals is a uniquely Christian (or at least religious) thing, commonly used to imply that non-religious people simply are incapable of harbouring a decent set of morals and ethics.

Jinjre
12-25-2005, 08:37 AM
Actually, I find those who believe in their Christian faith, and live it (rather than just practising it) to be very impressive humans. On page one I discussed one of my coworkers who is one of a series of very impressive Christians I know. Martin Luther King Jr, Mother Theresa, Jimmy Carter...all Christians who lived the teachings of Christ. All people I have a great deal of respect for.

The question, as I understood it, is why is Christianity taking such a beating lately. The answer, I believe, is that there has been a sharp rise in the number of highly vocal "Christian" nutjobs out there who don't practice what they preach.

Christ preached tolerance. Boycotting stores because they show tolerance to all people by not using the secular "Merry Christmas" as a holiday greeting is not tolerant, it's just idiotic.

Christ preached to judge the sin, not the sinner. But there are a tremendous number of very vocal people out there condemning gays on the airwaves and in print.

Christ preached turning the other cheek, and that judgement is to be left to God. Assassinating the head of state of another country doesn't seem like a very Christian thing to be preaching. And certainly (from my earlier post) advocating torture is not Christian by any stretch.

I have another coworker. She has told me I'm going to burn in hell. Meanwhile, she gossips, slanders, is malicious, believes anyone who doesn't believe like she does is wrong.

So in my little office of 5 people, I have one coworker who is devoutly Catholic and lives by his religious principles, and one who is much more vocal about her beliefs, but about every other action she takes is about as far from the teachings of Christ as they can be without actually murdering someone. The first coworker I have great respect for, the second I mock (occassionally pulling my own quotes from the bible to point out what she's doing....she really hates that).

Arienne
12-25-2005, 10:09 AM
The first coworker I have great respect for, the second I mock (occassionally pulling my own quotes from the bible to point out what she's doing....she really hates that).*laugh* It's so much fun to expose a poser as often as you can!

The biggest hypocrites I have ever seen have been "churchy" people... perhaps because I was taught growing up that being dedicated to the church was supposed to mean something positive. I posted once before about company execs who are very "into" church because it's "politically correct"... along with having a pretty and non-working wife and several kids. But I see more people bandying religious symbols about while speeding through a school zone, taking a parking spot that someone else was obviously waiting for, cussing and backstabbing almost as a habit, looking out for #1 at the direct expense of others.

I'd rather be around people who let their conscience guide them with the differences between right and wrong and don't feel that they can do whatever they want as long as they make an obligatory appearance in church on Sunday.

Aidon
12-25-2005, 11:18 AM
It's been suggested that if a person's faith can't take a few hits, that faith is not strong. I agree. However, it's not unreasonable to expect that those taking those hits to fight back. To deny one from saying "Merry Christmas" is more than a hit. It's denying them the expression of their religious celebration.

Its exclusionary. Its like you were saying "Have a happy holiday, but only if you're worshiping my Christian holiday".

To which, I respond, piss off. Keep your holiday. I will not even pretend to worship your Jesus to appease you and make you feel better about yourself that you've spread a little bit more Christianity in the world today.

Exploring the basis for religious traditions is different from mocking the usage of those traditions based on their history. But I have to ask, who really is more insecure in their faith, the one saying Merry Christmas, or the one offended by such wishes?

No, I'm quite secure in my religious beliefs. What I'm not secure with is the notion that Christians will remain tolerant for any length of time. Already, I can see the pendulum swinging back towards Religious Tolerance, but only for good Christian folk.

My understanding of the US Constitution is that it granted each of us freedom to practice our religions, not to prohibit such celebrations. Some here would prohibit individuals from celebrating by denying them their right to wish others a Merry Christmas or mock their traditions in celebrating Christmas.

You can practice your religion without putting a huge tree up in the town square and without trying to force all of America into expressing your holiday as the primary holiday during this season. Which is exactly what Christians are attempting to do.

In another thread, there were cross-accusations that the two primary political parties were intolerant. Again, that begs the question, which is the more intolerant, the one wishing another a Merry Christmas, or the one offended by such wishes and who seeks to prevent any open display of Christmas.

I can guarantee you...if I tried to put up a giant Menorah in say...Dish, Texas. The Christians would be all over suing to have it taken down (if it didn't just get trashed from the get go some night). You filthy hypocrits have no problem, whatsoever, with preventing open displays of other religions...you just love driving us outsiders into our private lil conclaves to worship discreetly. **** that.



I've read the explanations for the mocking of Christians. It seems primarily based on the actions of some extremists.

No, not extremists. The 'rank and file' of christianity, throughout the world, is horribly intolerant of other faiths. Just because you've stepped up (generally speaking) from slaughtering non-christians to simply disliking them, doesn't change the intolerance.



In another thread, Aidon claims that Christians and Jews don't believe in the same God. I beg to differ. Christians pray to the God of David. Christians share the belief in the God of the Old Testament with Jews. It is only the Christian belief that Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God, and the existence of the Holy Spirit (aka Soul), arising from the New Testament, where the two religions seperate. Note that I did not say that Jesus or the Holy Spirit are Gods. I don't even think the Catholics consider them as gods, but rather as part of a Holy Trinity, which is different. Of all peoples, I would expect the Jews who have suffered extreme religious persecution to be the first ones to stand up and defend the faiths of others, not to be insulting and offended by such other faiths or to seek to make those practicing other religions to hide behind closed doors in their celebrations. But then, not all Jews are alike either and I don't assume all Jews react or believe as Aidon has expressed here.

I should defend the faith of those who have proven to be the biggest threat to Judaism ever? Noone has treated the Jews worse than Christians. As much as in modern times Islam is our biggest enemy...they have alot of work to do before they catch up to the tragedies bestowed on Jews by Christians.

From the 14 year old boy who gets into fights at school because he's a Jew to the old man who only recently was able to get the hell out of eastern europe, we've suffered as a people to an extend unknown by many other groups on this planet. And its because of Christians.

The only people Christianity has ****ed over more are the poor Native Americans.

That being said and done...I still defend your right to practice your religion in America. But not in the public sector. Keep that to your homes. Your churches. Not our Capitol Buildings and town squares. And quit trying to force stores to cater to your whims and wish folks a Merry Christmas, because if that's all I get henceforth, I'm liable to become a violent yid.


With that said, I wish each and every one of you a Happy Holiday, and to those celebrating Christmas, a very Merry Christmas! (( hugs ))


I hope you and your have a pleasant Christmas.


now where'd I'd put that Hannukah song MP3?

Arienne
12-25-2005, 11:46 AM
I can guarantee you...if I tried to put up a giant Menorah in say...Dish, Texas. The Christians would be all over suing to have it taken down (if it didn't just get trashed from the get go some night). I don't think Christians would be suing. More likely the aethiests would be with the reasoning that now others want to "get into the act".You filthy hypocrits have no problem, whatsoever, with preventing open displays of other religions...you just love driving us outsiders into our private lil conclaves to worship discreetly. **** that.Sounds like personal bitterness. I have never known Jews to flaunt their religion. I always felt that it was because they felt secure in their beliefs, and that the Jewish faith doesn't really WANT everyone and his brother to convert. A great deal of your religion's strength is in it's struggle against adversity.

Panamah
12-25-2005, 12:12 PM
Some here have mocked some of the traditions of Christmas, including the decorated tree or Santa Claus, tracing their roots to pagan celebrations or more recent history, as if that mattered.
*sigh* Its like talking to a wall. The entire debate started out as Christians saying there is a war on THEIR holiday. The debate centers around the fact that it isn't THEIR holiday. It is the holiday of everyone who cares to celebrate it. The proof is in the origin of the holiday. I mean, some of the Mega-churches are not even going to have any sort of worship on Christmas day now, because the pastors want to be with their families. So exactly how religious is this holiday even for those who are claiming it is THEIR holiday?

That doesn't really seem like a difficult concept to grasp but it seems to perienially elude some.

What matters, just in case you actually read this, is the silly assertion that some Christians keep making about how THEIR holiday is under attack. It is absurb, I say! As if it was THEIR holiday, which it isn't. And why the heck don't they just celebrate how they like and not get in a fuss over whether Wal-Mart and Target say Happy Holidays versus Merry Christmas?

Oh yes... *looks at Calendar* Merry Christmas to those who celebrate it! And for those who don't, "Merry Cranberry or Happy Festivus! Happy Chaunukkaaaah! Brilliant Kwanza!"

If Christians in the US were like Christians in most of Europe, celebrating in their churches and not doing that whole evangelical "My way or you burn-in-hell" bit, no one would be complaining. SooooOOoooo if you want Christianity in the US to be viewed as harmless, warm-fuzzy feelings, put some pressure on the whack-jobs in Congress, the Senate and on TV (O'Reilly would be a good start).

Arienne
12-25-2005, 12:35 PM
*points at Panamah's post*

SEE! I TOLD you it was MY holiday! :p


I win!

Anka
12-25-2005, 12:55 PM
What matters, just in case you actually read this, is the silly assertion that some Christians keep making about how THEIR holiday is under attack. It is absurb, I say! As if it was THEIR holiday, which it isn't. And why the heck don't they just celebrate how they like and not get in a fuss over wether Wal-Mart and Target say Happy Holidays versus Merry Christmas?

It is their holiday just as much as it is your holiday. Their holiday is getting turned from a spiritual celebration into a winter merchandising experience, and I've some sympathy for what is being lost. Whilst so many people enjoy the revelry and indulgence of Christmas however, including so many christians, it's not going to turn back. Even Christmas can't please everyone in every way so we ought to make the most of what we have.

Merry Christmas everyone, I'm off to enjoy a little more revelry and indulgence.

LauranCoromell
12-25-2005, 02:26 PM
Actually, I don't feel the need to defend my beliefs whatever the strength of them might be to you, nor do I wish to debate my beliefs with you or feel it's at all necessary. I also don't feel that I should be required to take your "shots".

This is a public board with many different people of different beliefs, I'm not taking shots at any of you and Remi or anyone else asking that you show respect to people with different beliefs than you hold, I don't believe is asking too much. Now, if you want to single out a person or an specific event that is a different matter, but "you people" and "Christians" all being lumped into the same catagory is actually saying much more about your beliefs than it is about mine. I wish you all peace.

Merry Christmas Remi, and everyone who celebrates Christmas whether as a religious holiday or merely a recognized holiday on the calendar. To those who do not celebrate Christmas, I wish you Happy Holidays or merely a wonderful day in general.

Aidon
12-25-2005, 02:44 PM
I don't think Christians would be suing. More likely the aethiests would be with the reasoning that now others want to "get into the act".

Christians sued down in florida last year, or the year before, because some town had put up a menorah on their public land.

I happen to agree that the menorah shouldn't have been there...but these are the same people who fight to force others to live by their religious beliefs (abortion, gays, right to die). And they are the same people in an uproar because folks like me don't want their Christmas trees on public property either.

Sounds like personal bitterness. I have never known Jews to flaunt their religion. I always felt that it was because they felt secure in their beliefs, and that the Jewish faith doesn't really WANT everyone and his brother to convert. A great deal of your religion's strength is in it's struggle against adversity.

We don't flaunt our religion. We can't. We're outnumbered something like 60 million to one. But we have a country here which was started expressly to be a secular society where one shouldn't have to fear being an outsider for their religious beliefs. When a group is viewed apart from the rest of society, it breeds dangerous intolerance.

Silxie
12-25-2005, 04:55 PM
That's because in Canada, both Muslims and Jews realize they are living in a Christian nation and can't complain about it.


I disagree, the reason why Canada doesnt have all this bs going on is because we aren't as bitterly divided left versus right as America is.

The "Christmas Spirit" of Peace on Earth and Goodwill to all of Humanity has been submerged by American mud-slingers like Bill O'Reilly who are exploiting the season to turn it into yet another front in the bitterness between the Christian Neo-Cons and the Secular Democrats. Never mind that the line is artificial, and that many republicans are secular and democrats are christian. Its just another excuse to pour salt into the american wound. Lets face it, any excuse to resent each other is a good one.

If the division wasn't there, this debate would be irrelavent. As a Pagan Canadian I'm happy to say Merry Christmas, and I honor the Christmas spirit of love, giving and charity. I don't care which religion spawned it, or what name it goes by, its a beautiful thing. Its very sad to see this kind of fuss being made over the name, at the expense of the spirit. Those people complaining about the words Merry Christmas should be as ashamed of themselves as those people whining about Happy Holidays or trying to claim they are under attack because someone is using a different word for their GOOD wishes.

So my Christmas wish to all Americans is for peace within your borders, goodwill between your political parties, and joy for you all!

Merry Christmas!

Anka
12-25-2005, 07:31 PM
Very well said Silxie.

Cantatus
12-26-2005, 03:08 AM
All I have to say: Hallelujah! No more "War on Christmas" bull**** for at least a year. O'Reilly is going to have to find something new to distract people from the real issues in this country.

Panamah
12-26-2005, 11:26 AM
War on New Years! O'Reilly tackles the chinese calendar and annual festivities denouncing them as unamerican. :p

Preview of Next Years "War on Christmas": Religious righties take to wearing manger scenes on their heads and protesting outside town halls.

Aidon
12-26-2005, 12:28 PM
I disagree, the reason why Canada doesnt have all this bs going on is because we aren't as bitterly divided left versus right as America is.

The "Christmas Spirit" of Peace on Earth and Goodwill to all of Humanity has been submerged by American mud-slingers like Bill O'Reilly who are exploiting the season to turn it into yet another front in the bitterness between the Christian Neo-Cons and the Secular Democrats. Never mind that the line is artificial, and that many republicans are secular and democrats are christian. Its just another excuse to pour salt into the american wound. Lets face it, any excuse to resent each other is a good one.

If the division wasn't there, this debate would be irrelavent. As a Pagan Canadian I'm happy to say Merry Christmas, and I honor the Christmas spirit of love, giving and charity. I don't care which religion spawned it, or what name it goes by, its a beautiful thing. Its very sad to see this kind of fuss being made over the name, at the expense of the spirit. Those people complaining about the words Merry Christmas should be as ashamed of themselves as those people whining about Happy Holidays or trying to claim they are under attack because someone is using a different word for their GOOD wishes.

So my Christmas wish to all Americans is for peace within your borders, goodwill between your political parties, and joy for you all!

Merry Christmas!


I will not be ashamed of it.

I will not kowtow.

I disassociate myself, as much as possible, from the religion which has butchered, tortured, raped, forcibly converted, ostracized, ridiculed, stolen from, and generally been piss poor to my people.

And if you think I'm bad about it now, just wait until Easter when I get to hear the Christ Killer comments more often.

Silxie
12-27-2005, 07:55 PM
Hey, they burned us alive. Its even in the good book - not to suffer a witch to live. But I've yet to have a Christian do anything to me aside from the occasional attempted excorcism when I ran my occult store. And hey, I'm always into a good banishing. What was fun was watching them cringe when I asked if I could pray for them.

/giggle.

There have been a lot of injustices in the past Aidon, more from men against women than from any religious group against any other - I'd warrent. Personally, I think that the Jewish state of Isreal has behaved terribly in the last while. But that doesnt mean that I'd spite A Christian from wishing me a merry Christmas, or spite a man for opening a door for me, or that I would spite a Jew for remembering me in his prayers. You don't have to agree with everything a body of people has done in order to appreciate something that a member of that body does that has a good intention.

It just seems like a waste of energy to bother getting offended by things that aren't meant badly when there are so many things that are out there being overlooked.

Panamah
12-27-2005, 08:23 PM
Could you help me with a banishing? I need to banish the Jehovah's Witnesses that are stalking me. I made the mistake of being friendly when they came to my door. Now they're here every damn week.

Cantatus
12-27-2005, 08:35 PM
You could put up one of these:
http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/S-NOthump.jpg

Fyyr Lu'Storm
12-27-2005, 09:01 PM
Hey, they burned us alive. Its even in the good book - not to suffer a witch to live. But I've yet to have a Christian do anything to me aside from the occasional attempted excorcism when I ran my occult store. And hey, I'm always into a good banishing...

It just seems like a waste of energy to bother getting offended by things that aren't meant badly when there are so many things that are out there being overlooked.

I guess you got to miss out on the book and music burnings of the 80s.

And the Satanic trials. Christians were running around hysterical back then...

Retro-memories and all that bull****. Pat Robertson running for President.

I caused a terrible big push on changing the CPS system for the worse.

And what it took was people getting offended and pushing back a little and making fun of them.

I still hold them 50% responsible for half the US AIDS death today. All that wrath of god ****, let our public officials treat that disease like no other disease in history.

Silxie
12-27-2005, 09:21 PM
The magic words are "Please put me on your do not call list." Guarenteed you will never hear from them again.

Panamah
12-27-2005, 10:37 PM
You could put up one of these:
http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/S-NOthump.jpg

Oh wow! That would be perfect!

B_Delacroix
12-28-2005, 08:58 AM
I've told this story before but I'll tell it again.

Once had a roommate handle this very well. All he said in reply to the woman at the door was, "Why yes, come in and talk about anything that pleases you."

She left instead.

Grenoble
12-28-2005, 09:44 AM
Hey, they burned us alive. Its even in the good book - not to suffer a witch to live.

Actually, King James was big into the witch hunting of the time, and adapted the translation a little to suit his tastes. From what I've read the original is thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live.

Aidon
12-28-2005, 10:25 AM
Soothsayer, I beleive.

Aidon
12-28-2005, 11:15 AM
Personally, I think that the Jewish state of Isreal has behaved terribly in the last while.

Terribly? Oh pray tell, how so?

Panamah
12-28-2005, 11:20 AM
Actually, King James was big into the witch hunting of the time, and adapted the translation a little to suit his tastes. From what I've read the original is thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live.
Just more Christian intolerance against poisoners! I protest!

But, but... how come christians are literal about "Virgin Mary" but not about the other bits of the bible?

B_Delacroix
12-28-2005, 12:22 PM
Just more Christian intolerance against poisoners! I protest!

But, but... how come christians are literal about "Virgin Mary" but not about the other bits of the bible?

Because they are human like everyone else and make the same mistakes everyone else does. They select what best suits their purposes, just like everyone else. See a trend here? Self righteousnous seems to be a human trait no matter the subject.

Taken individually "they" aren't all the same. As a whole over the last 2000 years the result is overshadowed by the personal agendas of those in power during any given era over that time.

Panamah
12-28-2005, 12:26 PM
But how come no one ever says, "Hey, our translation of these Biblical texts is really screwed up. We should research it all over again and try to get a closer translation".

B_Delacroix
12-28-2005, 12:28 PM
Imagine the uproar. Not just from those in power because of the way it has been written for 2000 years. Then ask again.

Perhaps for some, it is the message and not the actual words that is important. I doubt you hear from them much.