View Full Forums : Unique Druid Roles


Fenier
01-16-2006, 06:08 PM
I fully expect this post to become subject to considerable debate. I expect this becuase I am going to claim something that alot of people either do not want to hear, or refuse to believe.

We Already Have An Unique Role.

Before people get all up in arms, I am going to explain. In Velious we where given a new spell, Fixation of Ro. Over the years, we've had upgrades to this, and our Hand of Ro debuff at 61 also decreases attack. Fact is however, in the past 5 Years of posts on this board, very few people have come close to understanding how the attack debuff line actually works in practice.

The most recent discussion is located here (http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?t=11818) This is from Last August when this following was suggested, and then added to our top 10 list.

3. Percentage Debuffs (NEW)

Druid debuffs are fixed, and thus do not scale up with increases in mob effectiveness and power. One or more of the debuff spells should be looked at for a switch to a percentage-based debuff to attack and armor class.
A decent debate appeared over the following several pages, but we never really parsed it out to determine if the fixed attack reduction values where decent in todays content. This will come as a shock to people, but They are fine even for todays content.

The closest anyone ever came to fully understanding what attack reduction does was 4 years ago in discussions over the addition of our Planes of Power upgrade to Fixation of Ro - Ro's Illumination. These comments where made by Lotusfly, and we made the mistake of not looking into it all that drastically.

My parses, and general conclusions to how attack works against a players AC value validate and expand on Lotusfly's comments. Basically in the process however, they proved the entire August Discussion we had on Percentage Debuffs and increasing our need for attack reduction on those debuffs, for lack of a better word - Wrong.

Drawing heavly on experience from The Steel Warrior, and using Yalp to parse a fairly sizable series of hits on a given AC value, I have come up with some very surprising findings, where are located here (http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showpost.php?p=189142&postcount=13).

While we are not done with the findings, they seriously call into question our role in both group and raid situations. They drastically disprove alot of the debate we did in August, and more importantly, they give us a unique and very valuable raid role.

If you are interested in helping confirm how this works, click the study link above and feel free to help out.

Also, if you refuse to believe anything I have come up with in my findings, you are welcome to parse and attempt to disprove it. However, unless you can, and it would take a sizable amount of evidance otherwise, we as a community will need to admit something to ourselves.

That the largest impact we can have on raids, and even to some extent in exp groups - as been overlooked, for the past 5 Years.

-Fenier

sliggoth
01-16-2006, 07:57 PM
Beautiful explanation...I havent ever had any luck convincing nonDruids that it matters but maybe this will help.


Sliggoth, druid/ tradeskiller of 7th Hammer

Alaene
01-16-2006, 08:19 PM
I started to write a critique, to suggest that there was a need for a percentage attack debuff.

My purpose wasn't to discredit Fenier's theory, or put down the work he's put into this. For the record, I think it's compelling and strong reasoning, Fen. Thanks for your efforts.

I think it's common practice for Druids to atk debuff on raids, and if it isn't, it should be. In xp groups, as I've posted elsewhere, it may be more efficient (mana/time wise) for a druid to nuke or heal dependant on their personal bent.

The basis for my intended critique was that as mobs have increased in DB/DI, and attack values, over the expansions, the fixed numbers of a druid's debuff MUST do proportionately less. I was going to point to the fact that the parses are largely against PoP & OOW era mobs, who are contemporaneous with the release of Hand of Ro & Sun's Corona respectively. This is true to an extent, but in reading all of the TSW threads on the matter and looking at the parses, I understand why even the fixed numbers of an attack debuff scale to a certain extent.

I was also going to agree with the theory that an atk debuff on a mob is similar in value to an ac buff of the same magnitude on your tank, and that because the ac buff is a smaller percentage of the tanks ac NOW than it would have been under old expansions (with lower max ac items etc), there must be some diminution of the effect of druid atk debuffs. This, I think, is true to a certain extent, but the principle proven by Fen's parses remains.

Simply speaking, the attack debuff (and thus the mob's debuffed attack value) can't be viewed alone. You can't say "aha, this mob has 3000 attack, debuffing by 190 isn't going to be as good as back in PoP, when you were debuffing a mob with only 2000 attack".

This is because you're dealing with what approaches, in an ideal world, a zero sum equation.

The damage values a tank is hit by, in very simple terms, are calculated by comparing the mobs attack value and the tanks ac value. Lets say it's simply mob attack minus tank ac. Arbitrarily, 2000 (Fen’s ikkinz parse) minus mitigation ac of 1500, leaving you with a basis for calculating your hit distribution of 500. Debuff that by 190, and you're talking about a difference of 310 to base your calculation on.

Compare a PoP era battle - a Mob with an attack of say 737 (Fen’s razorfiend parse). AC was a lot lower in those days – I’m going to guess roughly 500 mitigation ac. Debuff by 100 (PoP era HoR only), and your basis for calculation is 237.

In other words, as Mob attack increases, Tank AC also increases. If the two keep pace, you will still see gains from even fixed value attack debuffs.

In both circumstances, the numbers aren’t wildly far apart. Given the number of expansions between them, anway. I still suspect that the gains are proportionately decreasing, but that doesn’t mean they’re not significant.

Fenier
01-16-2006, 08:32 PM
I think your correct on alot of points.

Due to how a Attack Value is calucated verus a tanks mitigation AC, you are apt to have consisant parses across expansions, even as the attack value might increase becuase the player mitigation AC, should also increase with the attack.

This is shown in my parses somewhat.

We take a Ssra Taskmaster (Upper Luclin), Razorfiend (Lower PoP), A Water Mephit (Upper PoP) and a Chimera (mid road Omens) and we see the roughly same 20 percent increase to the modal hit.

You may be able to disprove this. It would require long parses against mobs such as those found in Kod'Taz, MPG, Riftseeker's The Nest, The Hive, or Ruins of Illisian.

The only way to agrue for scaling debuffs would be to show the ones we have do not scale across mobs of various expansions. Looking at my parses I am apt to say they more or less do.

We would need extensive parsing in the above areas to show otherwise. However, I can not survive against a RS Ice Side mob for an hour without at least 1 other healer and the mob being slowed. So I am unable to parse this myself.


-Fenier

Alaene
01-16-2006, 09:03 PM
Frankly, I'd never argue for a %age debuff - it's an unrealistic request. The reason %age stuff doesn't work well (as SoE have discovered with Cheal and Slow, and their kludge fixes to them) is that you cut yourself off from being able to give upgrades to characters as the content changes.

What I think is much more likely is that Hand of Ro will be replaced with an upgrade in expansion #12, taking the total attack debuff to something like 250. Alternatively, a third stacking debuff (ugh) may be added to achieve the same effect.

As for parsing against nasty DoDH or DoN mobs... as someone said elsewhere, the problem with parsing a mob that can actually kill you is that you can't get the kind of extended sample that you need with the EQ RNG :)

I would suggest that the effect of an attack debuff works with a normal distribution of effect, though, based on the degree of variance between mob atk & tank ac.

Practically, this means when debuffing a mob with 2000 atk, you are going to see a similar result with a tank of ac appropriately geared to that level of content. If you were to take a low end tank and put him up against the same mob, before or after debuff, you'd see bugger all difference. By the same token, taken a gimp level 70 tank and an uber level 70 tank, parse them against Emperor Crush, and the result will be substantially the same regardless of atk debuff.

Fenier
01-16-2006, 10:01 PM
One thing that I wish to make clear.

This information is not exactly new. The proof of how it works might be, becuase I do not believe I have ever seen parses done to determine the value of attack reduction.

I think it has commonly been believed that lower attack is equal to lower dps.

This is true, however, the important part is how eq generates those values with the lower attack. In the case of the mobs (tho I would not be surpirsed if a similar study was done on PCs back when XtC was raided) the lower attack value drastically reduces the number of maximum hits.

The reason that is important, is it commonly, I would venture is that max hit rounds are more apt then any other to kill tanks. Thus lowering the chance of those max hti rounds occuring is apt to increase tank survival directly.

However, because the average person probly has none done extensive testing, they would logically think that lower attack is lower dps, not realising the drastic effect this has been having on the entire hit range.

Quite personally, I think it is very cool what the parses have shown thus far. I think it dispells the need for precentage debuffs. I think it gives druids a new understand of the ability we have to reduce attack and why it is important in terms of raiding and / or grouping. Finally, I think it is something we should take a bit of pride in - as it shows we are not useless on raids.

-Fenier

Cassea
01-17-2006, 12:27 AM
How do you give us better attack debuffs for "today's" mobs without that same debuff becoming overpowering to older world stuff?

This was my entire reason for suggesting a percentage based debuff.

Why is there a percentage haste? Slow? Mitigation? It has been suggested that SOE hates percentage stuff but not only is the game filled with percentage buffs/debuffs but more are being added.

I am very open to new ideas. I just cannot see how "any" fixed debuff can be made powerfull enough for the insane stuff yet not overpowering to old stuff.

I understand the concept of comparing mob vs tank attacks or whatnot...

Let me see if I understand:

PoP mob has 2000 attack
Player has 1900 attack

Difference is 100 so the mob is adjusted based on 100 when checking damage. If we cast a -50 attack debuff then the difference becomes 50 (2000-50=1950-1900) so we just knocked a huge attack value off the mob (I do not see any result to suggest this thou LOL)

Now we have a new expansion and:

PoN ob has 2500 attack
Player has 2000 attack

Difference is 500 so that same -50 debuff now sucks on the new stuff LOL. SOE gives us a brand new -200 debuff to bring this down to 300 (500-200) Great....

But:

If we use that same new debuff on the older stuff the entire encounter becomes silly.

So why not percentage? Why not a spell that allows 10% or 20% or whatever SOE considered to be balanced? What is wrong with a spell that works the same on "all" mobs?

I understand what you are saying but I simply do not see it right now. If I attack debuff a dark blue mob with my best debuff from present expansion on a kunark era mob I still get the royal snot kicked out of me or am I doing something wrong?

-Cass

P.S. Just re-read your work and wow! Thanks. I can see that our debuffs do have meaning but I wonder how the debuffs work on the really hard stuff? Is it possible that even thou the mobs get more hpts, hit harder and whatnot that the core calculations for attack debuffs are somehow unchanged? That is they work the same on Kunark vs DoDH?

Fenier
01-17-2006, 02:40 AM
P.S. Just re-read your work and wow! Thanks. I can see that our debuffs do have meaning but I wonder how the debuffs work on the really hard stuff? Is it possible that even thou the mobs get more hpts, hit harder and whatnot that the core calculations for attack debuffs are somehow unchanged? That is they work the same on Kunark vs DoDH?

This is my belief, and what my iearly parses are showing to be true. We would need a parse that heavily breaks trend to say that this is not true.

-Fenier

Golthine Gettinwood
01-17-2006, 03:11 AM
I am waiting for the parse reports from our encounters with the Furious Jailer. Out of the several times we did him, I casted the Ro spells two of the times, and the others I didn't. I also made our MT aware of this, just to see what the damage recieved was like.

Juniper
01-17-2006, 04:25 AM
I can arrange a parse on Jailer, just give me a couple of days.

Excellent write up, I have been of this philosophy since I picked my druid up. It's time we begin openly discussing our tool kit in this manner.

Beatslayer
01-17-2006, 06:54 AM
How would a non-percentage slow or haste work?

Kaeuvian
01-17-2006, 08:37 AM
I've always been a strong beliver that these spells are usefull, and really do experience them as being usefull when i solo stuff toe-to-toe.

mordien
01-17-2006, 09:36 AM
LOL, the wizards already spam /gu when I forget to debuff now its gonna be warriors too! God forbid I don't keep Immolation of Ro on a resistant mob the wizards might riot. j/k

I can just imagine now getting tells from the warriors. "did you debuff the mob?"

or

WarriorX says to guild "the mob was hitting to hard i don't think the druids debuffed it"

All joking aside, I'd like to see the results on a raid boss. I'm trying to think of a raid boss where I could get by with not debuffing for a couple mins of the fight without it being an issue. AMV comes to mind, its not particluarly a hard fight, and I believe its fire debuffable or maybe a Zun in Tacvi if your still raiding that.

Nimchip
01-17-2006, 09:59 AM
I'm surprised that some druids have not or did not use our debuffs lines at all if any. In all the raid groups i've belonged to we have always debuffed - not because of ac or atk, but rather because of wizard resists.

All joking aside, I'd like to see the results on a raid boss. I'm trying to think of a raid boss where I could get by with not debuffing for a couple mins of the fight without it being an issue. AMV comes to mind, its not particluarly a hard fight, and I believe its fire debuffable or maybe a Zun in Tacvi if your still raiding that.

I would really like to see this as well, but to coordinate a parse on raid mobs GoD+ is kinda tough. Remember that the tanks need the same weapons and buffs... and not everyone wants to raid for 2 hours for an effective parse :p

Cassea
01-17-2006, 10:39 AM
How would a non-percentage slow or haste work?

Simple: Everything is assigned a number and in this case, for example, the mob will have a 1000 delay. A "hard-coded" fixed slow would knock a certain number off this delay. Same for haste.

Me thinks that we have grown so used to percentage based slow and haste that the very thought of doing it any other way seems silly. I suspect the same would be said for attack and AC debuffs if they were always percentage based instead of the other way.

I think some confusion may arise over the fact that a round is a fixed 6 seconds but within that 6 seconds mobs can and do hit multiple times.

People understand percentages. Telling people that our debuff knocks off 100 attack gets the response "yeah....ok.... so what?" but if you tell them that our debuff lowers their attack 20% and you get people saying "great! make sure you cast that all the time!"

-Cass

Cassea
01-17-2006, 10:44 AM
This is my belief, and what my iearly parses are showing to be true. We would need a parse that heavily breaks trend to say that this is not true.

-Fenier

If this proves to be true IMHO we need to make one post with all the facts that can be linked to on all the other class boards. Then we need to go on a tour of the boards and publicise the heck out of this. If we can convince or sell the other classes on these facts (assuming them to be true as early indicators seem) so that they can understand how "fixed" debuffs work.

As I posted above....people understand percentages... tell them our debuff knocks 20% off an attack and they smile.... tell them it knocks 100 point off and they look at you kinda funny :)

Changing almost seven years of public perception will not be easy (I still prefer SOE just make them percentage based) so we all need to be on the same page with whatever we do.

Thoughts?

-Cass

Cassea
01-17-2006, 10:50 AM
I'm surprised that some druids have not or did not use our debuffs lines at all if any. In all the raid groups i've belonged to we have always debuffed - not because of ac or atk, but rather because of wizard resists.



I would really like to see this as well, but to coordinate a parse on raid mobs GoD+ is kinda tough. Remember that the tanks need the same weapons and buffs... and not everyone wants to raid for 2 hours for an effective parse :p

I have always tried to debuff but as you say, it's only when the wizzies need fire debuffed does anyone actually ask for them. It has been my perception that not only do the other classes not know what our debuffs do (well most of them LOL) but they could not care less if we use them or not. Try not slowing and see what they say :)

Heck I still have tanks clicking off Lion because they say they already are capped on str :) Oh how I wish SOE would change the name of Lion's Strength to Lion's Roar or Lion's Rage or anything without "strength" in the title LOL

-Cass

Fenier
01-17-2006, 11:18 AM
If this proves to be true IMHO we need to make one post with all the facts that can be linked to on all the other class boards. Then we need to go on a tour of the boards and publicise the heck out of this. If we can convince or sell the other classes on these facts (assuming them to be true as early indicators seem) so that they can understand how "fixed" debuffs work.

If you really want to, feel free - I did not spend my weekend trying to figure this out on differant mobs however, for us to brag to other classes. The issue is this is fairly math intensive, and I seriously doubt alot of people will have an easy time understanding it in the first place. This is why I was sure to include charts so people could see what was happening, without being concerned with the math side of it.

As far as a post goes however, this is probly the best we have and you are welcome to link it to whoever you like: http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showpost.php?p=189142&postcount=13

As I posted above....people understand percentages... tell them our debuff knocks 20% off an attack and they smile.... tell them it knocks 100 point off and they look at you kinda funny

The issue with this, is the attack reduction isn't a percentage which is consistant from mob to mob, it varies. With more parse data we could probly determine what say, 20 attack reduction is and come up with some rough percentages based on that.

Cassea
01-17-2006, 11:29 AM
If you really want to, feel free - I did not spend my weekend trying to figure this out on differant mobs however, for us to brag to other classes. The issue is this is fairly math intensive, and I seriously doubt alot of people will have an easy time understanding it in the first place. This is why I was sure to include charts so people could see what was happening, without being concerned with the math side of it.

As far as a post goes however, this is probly the best we have and you are welcome to link it to whoever you like: http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showpost.php?p=189142&postcount=13



The issue with this, is the attack reduction isn't a percentage which is consistant from mob to mob, it varies. With more parse data we could probly determine what say, 20 attack reduction is and come up with some rough percentages based on that.

I think you misunderstand me Fen... I don't want to brag (it is your's and a few others hard work and not mine after all LOL) but I was suggesting that if the number prove true that we come up with a dumbed down version (maybe dumb is not the right term) of the results with some of your wonderfull graphs that can be linked to demonstrate to others what these debuffs really do. I would love to be able to (depending on the results) come up with a percentage we can say they do since people understand this more.

I would use the term educate. Maybe a graphic for each of the debuff lines (Can we stack all three or only two?) and one for all debuffs applied (like you have already done) but changed to show the average reduction in hits - IE 10% reduction

Maybe this cannot be changed to a percentage as you have said, mobs all hit for different amounts but anything that can be linked to that is easy to understand to educate the rest of the game about the merits of attack debuffs can do nothing but help our cause.

Has anything been done with the AC part of this? Lowering a mobs AC should cause higher melee output.

Once again a BIG thanks for all your hard work on this!

-Cass

Fenier
01-17-2006, 11:42 AM
I would use the term educate. Maybe a graphic for each of the debuff lines (Can we stack all three or only two?)

Ro's Sundering doesn't lower attack.

We can stack Hand of Ro + One from the Fixation Line.


Has anything been done with the AC part of this? Lowering a mobs AC should cause higher melee output.

Theories posted here: http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?t=13112

I can't duelbox and I don't consider Druid melee decent enough to get a sizable range of hits against a mob, so I can't do the parse work on my own.

-Fenier

mordien
01-17-2006, 01:08 PM
This thread is particularly interesting to me b/c I've been wondering for the longest time if our ac/atk debuffs really do anything on raid mobs.

I'm surprised that some druids have not or did not use our debuffs lines at all if any. In all the raid groups i've belonged to we have always debuffed - not because of ac or atk, but rather because of wizard resists.

Funny thing is our debuffs are what prompted me to create the druid chat in the guild I was in when chat channels were introduced. I was doing all the debuffs on raid mobs and getting eaten so I wanted a channel to coordinate who was doing what debuff so I didn't always have to die. =P Well that and I hate wasting mana buffing the same person another druid is buffing.

I would really like to see this as well, but to coordinate a parse on raid mobs GoD+ is kinda tough. Remember that the tanks need the same weapons and buffs... and not everyone wants to raid for 2 hours for an effective parse :p


I think a Zun in Tacvi might be possible, we still farm this content for for gearing new members so not like its hard. I might need a little help from an officer in NI.. wonder who that would be NEGIAN. Other than that I really just need to talk a few clerics into helping spam heal a tank while he takes damage from the Zun. We don't need to bring the Zun down below 96% so we can basically go in, record data and disengage. It shouldn't bring the raid to a complete halt, b/c while loot is being awarded there is usually 10 min of wasted time anyway.

All that really depends on some 'helpful' clerics being online next time we clear Tacvi and the guild would have to be in a decent mood that night. ie. if we just wiped 5 times the night before probably wouldn't be a good night to talk them into waiting a couple mins.

Fenier
01-17-2006, 01:11 PM
I think a Zun in Tacvi might be possible, we still farm this content for for gearing new members so not like its hard. I might need a little help from an officer in NI.. wonder who that would be NEGIAN. Other than that I really just need to talk a few clerics into helping spam heal a tank while he takes damage from the Zun. We don't need to bring the Zun down below 96% so we can basically go in, record data and disengage. It shouldn't bring the raid to a complete halt, b/c while loot is being awarded there is usually 10 min of wasted time anyway.


Would have a easier time talking them into letting you parse on Say, the mob which drops the Kelp Covered Hammer due to it being drastically easier thenanything else in the zone.

-Fenier

Nimchip
01-17-2006, 01:24 PM
I have always tried to debuff but as you say, it's only when the wizzies need fire debuffed does anyone actually ask for them. It has been my perception that not only do the other classes not know what our debuffs do (well most of them LOL) but they could not care less if we use them or not. Try not slowing and see what they say :)

Heck I still have tanks clicking off Lion because they say they already are capped on str :) Oh how I wish SOE would change the name of Lion's Strength to Lion's Roar or Lion's Rage or anything without "strength" in the title LOL

-Cass

That much is true.

However I can say that when Glacier's and Eci's was fixed and we started doing them more often, rangers and beastlords have grown accostumed to them and have started asking me "is the mob CR debuffed?".

The problem about ATK debuffs is simple. There are so many mitigation effects and buffs as well as various circumstances in which a hit might be much less, and that much is attributed to them instead of our buffs. Panoply of Vie, Cripple and Defensive among others come to mind.

mordien
01-17-2006, 02:18 PM
Would have a easier time talking them into letting you parse on Say, the mob which drops the Kelp Covered Hammer due to it being drastically easier thenanything else in the zone.

-Fenier

I pretty much limited it down to Zun Mordt'Delt (aka the spliter) or the Zun (balancer). Reasons being of the other 2, one charms so that is no good and the other one does that cycle where he gets furious and then calms down. I assume that affects his melee skills. The spliter and balancer's skills are based on their HP% so as long as you don't damage them down below 96% it will be good data.

It might be a week or two before I have a chance to try this though, we just cleared Tacvi last night except the balancer, and I doubt I can set anything up on such short notice.

mordien
01-17-2006, 02:24 PM
However I can say that when Glacier's and Eci's was fixed and we started doing them more often, rangers and beastlords have grown accostumed to them and have started asking me "is the mob CR debuffed?".

LMAO, I haven't gotten that one yet, but it's only a mater of time...

Fenier
01-17-2006, 02:32 PM
In reguardess to people asking about effects on raid mobs. Phantron from Cats in Hats on The Steel Warrior had this to say after looking at the Taskmaster Parses I have in the discussion thread:

Why do people always insist on finding the most obscure explanations for anything that can be explained easily? If attack buffs have X effect on a regular mob in Ssra you'd expect it to behave similarly on anything else.

By the way that mob hit the warrior in question for about an average of 7 DIs before debuffed. Most proponents of AC would spontaneously combust and die from shock if they found that they were hit for an average of 7 DIs on an uber. My parses show non DP ubers do somewhere around 4-6 DIs. Brael quoted Zi doing ~8 DIs to him. This is a very respectable 'attack' rating relative to the warrior that did the parse.

Aldier
01-17-2006, 02:50 PM
If the data you are showing is true, then we have
one of AC/atk (Ro's Illumination -> Sun's Corona)
one of FR/ac w/ dot (Immo of Ro -> Sylvan Embers -> Immo of Sun)
one of FR/ac/atk (Hand of Ro)
one of CR/ac. (E'ci's Frosty Breath -> Glacier Breath)

What I see as a possible change to the debuff change could be a request for a new upgraded debuff in a coming expansion or a cold based atk debuff or a combined FR/CR debuff or a combination of these.

Fenier
01-17-2006, 02:55 PM
Aldier is to slow! Posted this 6 hours ago =p

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=druidbalance&message.id=9217#M9217

Alaene
01-17-2006, 03:39 PM
In reguardess to people asking about effects on raid mobs. Phantron from Cats in Hats on The Steel Warrior had this to say after looking at the Taskmaster Parses I have in the discussion thread:

I don't know if I agree with Phantron. I don't necessarily disagree, but his response was to Elladon, who said:

The parses show that on mobs that ahve low atk and are mitigated heavily, atk debuffs just reduce the crapness of the mob more. This should just be assumed as the norm for lower mobs now. In this case lwoering atk does what would take a fairly large amount of ac to do in terms of further mitigation.

I think it needs to be shown what happens when the mob has near equal atk to players ac and when the mob has much more atk than players ac.

To me this is quite plausible, and fits with what I posted previously (the ideal world of the zero sum equation etc).

I would postulate that where the mob has much more attack than the tanks mitigation ac, the returns on attack debuffs would be significantly less than where the mob begins already with lower attack. Having said that, the debuffs could still be worthwhile - even a 2% drop in max hits, when the max hit is over 4k, is worth grabbing for a lousy 100 mana.

[ps - an alternate debuff to HoR, with a cold basis, is a good idea. Should the two stack? I don't know, that's tricky.]

Noken
01-18-2006, 03:30 AM
An excellent set of parses, thank you! I've long stood by these debuffs, and used as many as will land on raids, often knowing that no other druid is casting them.

To add my one comment though, the attack debuffs aren't that great for 2 reasons: it's nearly useless in groups since mobs die so fast, and it only requires 1 druid on the raid to get full benefit. It's a perfectly suited set of spells to the current druid - great on paper yet few people notice or care.

Eiram
01-18-2006, 05:30 AM
We (RvN on AB) did yesterday trial of adaption and while im in cch i advised an other druid to do the debuffing. This trial was never so easy before. Two thanks died only on the not druid debuffable firemob. everytime the debuff landed the healing was much easier. So many thanks for this parses we have installed an debufforder now.

Fenier
01-18-2006, 07:21 AM
To add my one comment though, the attack debuffs aren't that great for 2 reasons: it's nearly useless in groups since mobs die so fast, and it only requires 1 druid on the raid to get full benefit.
The group situation varies drastically, both on how much dps the group has and on how fast the mob is hitting.

The second arguement is likewise untrue, since that logic implies that one shaman for slowing is all that is needed for a raid to get full benefit.

-Fenier

Fenier
01-18-2006, 07:27 AM
We (RvN on AB) did yesterday trial of adaption and while im in cch i advised an other druid to do the debuffing. This trial was never so easy before. Two thanks died only on the not druid debuffable firemob. everytime the debuff landed the healing was much easier. So many thanks for this parses we have installed an debufforder now.

This is interesting, has anyone else been testing them out (provided you've not used them all along) and had positive, or negative experiances?

Personally tried them out in Illisan Ruins last night, never resisted either (HoR first) and was a drastically noticable differance in how fast the tanks hp dropped.

-Fenier

Dari
01-18-2006, 10:44 AM
Way back when my ranger partner and I were hitting PoV for xp, he would 2B his chanter and charm a golem. We experimented with HoR and saw a noticeable difference in how much I had to heal the golem while tanking other golems and spiders there. When I debuffed with HoR I used much less mana keeping the pet healed and could spend more mana nuking. I have been a devout debuffer since :clap:

Vikken
01-18-2006, 11:19 AM
2 different thread for the same topics makes baby jebus cry. :(

I suggest reducing thread input to one single thread, we can pull out relevant posts and interesting points into a sticky thread later after all is said and done.

I would quote the specific people I'm replying to, but I'm lazy and so you'll have to keep in mind that I can be replying to someone a page or 2 back.

% debuffs ensure scaling. Whether or not it is need it another question all together. Evidence points to no, it is not.

Mob stats are pretty generic from what we can tell. Overall, the stat variance, between expanions close to each other in difficulty only slowly inflate, if at all. There are some notable difference in how these mobs behae though.

You'll note that GoD mobs tore through Elemental and LDoN tanks. Most of this was because of hasted mobs, but part of it was an increase in atk. I don't think the increase was that big either. I think its a point of misconception that player assume that mobs respond to stats the same way as players do.

Take a charmed mob, and dont buff it and put it up against a similar mob. It doesn't much matter which mob, they all do about the same damage to each other. Not take a small str buff and give it to the charmed mob and watch it tear the living crap outta everything you come across. The charmed mob responds well to stat buffing. Tack on haste and a meriad of other buffs and you got an uber mob killing machine.

Now take a player and see how long it takes to kill the same mobs. Add the same str buff and test again. The difference in kill times is very little. Players recive very little benefit from buffing compared to a mob.

We don't have a formula that really works well for determining mob atk or AC. If we extrapolate what we know about mobs and stats, we can assume that since they recive more from stats, then it is likely that mob AC and atk don't vary all that much.

In light of this, we really don't need to worry about atk debuffs become less powerful over time, because that change between expansion mobs is very little numericly.

Also, about the the usefulness of the debuffs on raid mobs, it is likely that debuffing is less useful there from a purely numeric standpoint. Ubers often have large DB. Because DB is a flat bonus to every hit, it doesn't matter how much we shift the average DI. What is more useful though, is the reduction from spike in DI, spike which can exceed the CH rotation or light spam, or however you guys do it now days. In that respect, it is still very useful.

The biggest bonus is that experience mobs often have a lower DB and higher DI, a situation that will result in a drastic lowering of DPS even if only shifted a few DIs. (Which is mindblowing for tanks becuse it take soo much work to do it with gear.)

The question isn't whether or not you should be using them by comparing healing saved vs time spent casting, or whatever other method of analysis you want to you. The question is how soon should you be using them. There's no question that healing in easy experience content, it might be easier to just heal instead of debuffing. Sure if its easy enough. What should be happening though is for more druids to want to do harder content for better rewards, because armed with this knowledge, a druid can get by with 20 or so % less healing power than the content strictly dictates. WITH a higher margin of saftey due to reduced spikes, which makes those last few seconds of KR a nightmare.

Fenier
01-18-2006, 12:54 PM
2 different thread for the same topics makes baby jebus cry. :(

I suggest reducing thread input to one single thread, we can pull out relevant posts and interesting points into a sticky thread later after all is said and done.

I originally created this thread to debate the findings and keep the other thread for data and findings, granted it you could do both on one thread, but I was trying to keep the other thread focused more on the techinal side of it.

The question isn't whether or not you should be using them by comparing healing saved vs time spent casting, or whatever other method of analysis you want to you. The question is how soon should you be using them. There's no question that healing in easy experience content, it might be easier to just heal instead of debuffing. Sure if its easy enough. What should be happening though is for more druids to want to do harder content for better rewards, because armed with this knowledge, a druid can get by with 20 or so % less healing power than the content strictly dictates. WITH a higher margin of saftey due to reduced spikes, which makes those last few seconds of KR a nightmare.

I agree, experiances are coming back, at least on experiance content in a solid manner. With the exception of major FR mobs (read, Fire side RS) Druids who use these debuffs should see marked improvement in their ability to heal content.

I would ask the druids who typically heal to try to mix in HoR and SC as time allows. HoR on incoming (if your tank can grab aggro) and SC maybe after the first Heal.

You should be seeing a reduction in the amount of heals needed.

This is very useful for mobs with high HP totals, such as those in some of the DoD missions. Of possiably even greater impact, is I wonder how these debuffs would work on the boss of 68.3 since he can not be slowed but no mob in the game is immune to Hand of Ro (they may resist, but never seen an immune message).

-Fenier

fourchette
01-18-2006, 01:47 PM
Well, I've never done any parses and doubt I ever will, to know the exact effects of debuffs. That said:

- If a mob can be hit with fire, HRo is always memmed and used by me, in groups and raids. We have 3-5 druids per raid, and we all have it up. Basically no mob in Tacvi or Anguish makes it to our raid without being hit with HRo. In groups, HRo is ALWAYS the first spell I cast on mobs, followed by nukes/snare. Even if I am main healer, I get HRo on the mob right away to reduce the damage the tank takes.

- For named mobs in raids, I also keep Immolation of the Sun on them 100% of the time. It's another AC and FR debuff. We have at least 2 druids casting it, so even if one drops for a few seconds during re-cast, the other druid still has his on.

- SC I personally find less useful, because it lacks a FR debuff AND it's resisted significantly more than the other 2 debuffs. I never use it for groups. BUT we have at least 2 druids in the raid that are casting it on every named.

- GB we use on mobs that are suceptible to cold, every one of them.

Druids tend to be main healers for groups on our raids, but we don't have any trouble keeping all the mobs as debuffed as we can make them. Debuffing mobs is certainly one of our primary duties. And believe me, if one of the debuffs has worn off and not been replaced, the wizards, necros, etc., let us know by screaming about their spells being resisted.

dorda
01-18-2006, 01:54 PM
Take a charmed mob, and dont buff it and put it up against a similar mob. It doesn't much matter which mob, they all do about the same damage to each other.

Not true anymore in my experience =( .. as charmed pet dps is badly nerfed. Charm a wos chimera for example, throw it against another fully buffed and you will go almost oom healing it. Uncharmed it hits 1k, charmed it hits 200 grrr.

So not a good way to test anymore.

dorda
01-18-2006, 02:08 PM
II would ask the druids who typically heal to try to mix in HoR and SC as time allows. HoR on incoming (if your tank can grab aggro) and SC maybe after the first Heal.
-Fenier

When in healing mode i have the following cast sequence on inc (rss+ mobs .. ).. this pretty maximizes the healing we druids can do i believe:

-reptile and SOTW tank 5 seconds before mobs hits (macroed .. so group knows what is going on .. still have tanks clicking off reptile eheh) .. if the mob is uber dps i ask the shammie to HOT the tank at same time i reptile, 5 seconds before inc .. (hot potions work too, right?)
-hungry vines almost exactly when mobs do first hit (20% rune, helps when mobs are still unslowed .. and gives some seconds more to debuff)
-fast heal usually now .. dont want to miss a heal on an unslowed mob
-HoR
-if tank below 65% - fast heal
-SC
-fast heal,KR as needed

With this sequence i could MH the boss of 68.2 mission for example, which is really bad dps until u get his hp down a bit.

Fenier
01-18-2006, 04:00 PM
Not true anymore in my experience =( .. as charmed pet dps is badly nerfed. Charm a wos chimera for example, throw it against another fully buffed and you will go almost oom healing it. Uncharmed it hits 1k, charmed it hits 200 grrr.

So not a good way to test anymore.

This is true on any animal prior to GoD.

-Fenier

Vikken
01-18-2006, 07:46 PM
Not true anymore in my experience =( .. as charmed pet dps is badly nerfed. Charm a wos chimera for example, throw it against another fully buffed and you will go almost oom healing it. Uncharmed it hits 1k, charmed it hits 200 grrr.

So not a good way to test anymore.

This is an artificial change tot he behavior as stated by the devs. The problem is that PC buffs are making charmed mobs incredibly powerful and trivializing content before it's time.

Fenier
01-19-2006, 07:05 AM
This is an artificial change tot he behavior as stated by the devs. The problem is that PC buffs are making charmed mobs incredibly powerful and trivializing content before it's time.

There where examples of this in Planes of Power iirc, but the major noticable differance occured in GoD where Charmed mobs could hit over 1k. GoD mobs in the Mountian Trials do not have alot of hitpoints due to thier hitting so hard for that era. Thus the charmed mob would own the uncharmed mob in several seconds totally trivalizing the entire encounter.

This is why mobs over a certain encounter level have thier power drastically reduced when charmed.

-Fenier

dorda
01-19-2006, 10:18 AM
Bah making EQ more difficult by raising mob DPS to stupid levels was a cheap trick in the first place .. that of course broke charm, so they basically had to nerf it to the point of making it of very limited use.. cheap trick also to undercon mobs, summon and all that crap.
Some work on mob AI, some mob impredictable behavior and more refined and changing mob tactics could have made the game more interesting. .
Eq was not a game about uber reflexes at the start .. more about tactics imo..

Teaenea
01-19-2006, 10:29 AM
I agree, experiances are coming back, at least on experiance content in a solid manner. With the exception of major FR mobs (read, Fire side RS) Druids who use these debuffs should see marked improvement in their ability to heal content.

-Fenier

I haven't tried in a while, but, when I first saw how much I ATK I could debuff I religiously used them in EXP groups with friends. Honeslty, at least back in the PoP days, we saw very little difference in EXP groups.

In today's content, I just don't have the time (and often the spell slots) to cast two or three debuffs while I am the main healer.

-hungry vines almost exactly when mobs do first hit (20% rune, helps when mobs are still unslowed .. and gives some seconds more to debuff)

I find I use this spell frequently too. It often takes the edge off of a fight.

dorda
01-19-2006, 11:03 AM
WTB 3 more spell slots! (should be a class aa!)

dorda
01-19-2006, 11:11 AM
This is an artificial change tot he behavior as stated by the devs. The problem is that PC buffs are making charmed mobs incredibly powerful and trivializing content before it's time.

Umm does this mean that if i dont buff the mob it will not nerf its dps?
Eager to try .. man that would be a lot of saved mana and time =)

Fenier
01-19-2006, 11:46 AM
Umm does this mean that if i dont buff the mob it will not nerf its dps?
Eager to try .. man that would be a lot of saved mana and time =)

As awesome as this derail is getting - can we get back on topic?

And No, mobs > PoP all suffer dps loss due to thier power level.

-Fenier

dorda
01-19-2006, 12:07 PM
As awesome as this derail is getting - can we get back on topic

EEEEEKKK .. u right .. so which unique roles we found? This is what i understood:

- ATK debuffing .. = -20% damage to tank if tank is equipped to zone level .. so scaling up
- AC debuffing = +??% melee damage

as well as (my thoughts)
- Fire/Cold debuffing = less resist, more crits too? I believe so... but not sure
- Reptile = another -??% damage to tank on average (% depends on mob average hit .. which is reduced by ATK debuffing .. so the 2 things combine really well)

Fenier
01-19-2006, 07:12 PM
- ATK debuffing .. = -20% damage to tank if tank is equipped to zone level .. so scaling up
- AC debuffing = +??% melee damage

Its not a fixd percentage, but it seems to be around a 20 percent shift to the minimum hit. More Parsing would need to be done for very solid numbers but we understand the shift in damage. We currently are the leaders of all the classes in attack debuffing, and given recent information I think we should seek to hold onto that position.

AC debuffing is still being discussed, but it is not a role we have all to ourselves.

as well as (my thoughts)
- Fire/Cold debuffing = less resist, more crits too? I believe so... but not sure
- Reptile = another -??% damage to tank on average (% depends on mob average hit .. which is reduced by ATK debuffing .. so the 2 things combine really well)

Fire and Cold debuffing reduces resists, nothing more.

Reptile is used to offset damage already taken. I have parses which show reptile heals the previous rounds damage because the heal trigger procs before the current round heals damage.

Attack Reduction reduces spikes in damage with a tendancy to shift damage to a much lower DI value. This works out for us because Reptile doesn't heal much, so the chances of Reptile exceeding the previous rounds damage on a mob which has suffered attack reduction is far greater then a mob hitting for higher DI values.

-Fenier

Alaene
01-19-2006, 07:20 PM
My perspective is that druids provide a "piece of the pie" in making mob DPS manageable.

Combine attack debuffs with something like slow or cripple and you have a much more manageable target than you otherwise would have.

If you're at the cutting edge of the game, this can help you succeed where you'd otherwise fail. If you're attacking content (be it raid or group) that is just a bit beyond you, it might make the difference. It will allow a druid to heal without huge downtime or risk of death due to crazy-damage-spike, where otherwise that downtime would be mind (and buttock) numbing, or where Chloro/Ancient Chloro just can't keep up with the mob's DPS.

It is a useful tool in the druid's belt, make no mistake. It's just no panacea :)

Kaeuvian
01-19-2006, 10:12 PM
I dont think there is much to prove to other classes, many of us and other players can see that the attack debuffs clearly make a noticeable difference. Whilst we can clearl show findings that the lowered atk is very useful none have had chance or abiltiy maybe to check its ac debuff portion. Which i personaly dont think useing the debuffs for that portion of the spells to try and increase a group situation dps, but possibly in a raid situation where all the 'small' increaments add up to say one more lower dps class, even then i wouldnt stres :p. I dont think any other class would have trouble in agreeing druids have a unique roll via our ability to reduce NPCs attack ratings considerably.

dorda
01-20-2006, 07:26 AM
Being able to reduce attack is nice .. I would bundle all thingies that reduce the mob dps (NOTE: defined here as HP decrease per second on the main tank) in one single ability:


MOB DPS REDUCTION: Slow, Atk debuff, Healing procs, Runes, STR/DEX debuffs

We now can do something in (Atk debuff, Healing procs, Runes). I would not say its a unique ability we have, but i'd say we have now a decent position in the role of mob dps reduction.

Fenier
01-20-2006, 07:39 AM
Direct attack reduction we share with two other classes. Shadow Knights and Necromancers. According to Lucy Berserkers may get a attack reduction disc, but as it only lasts 30 seconds, I do not believe we need to be directly concerned with it.

Shadow Knights and Necromancers spells do not stack. At level 54 and 56 respectfully, they can only decrease 35 attack. We can decrease attack by 65 at 42.

It seems our spells do stack, but we are clearly the leaders in attack reduction, which gives us a Unique role as being the lead for a perticular thing (something, ironiclly, we've had for years, just never realized the how important it was).

As much as I hate to compare against another classes skill set, think of it like slow (and yes, I realize it is not slow). Shamans, Enchanters, Beastlords and Bards can slow. Shamans are clearly the leaders here by a decent margain. We're seeing a likewise role here - Druids are clearly the leaders, with Shadow Knights and Necromancers coming in second.

What I feel is very important, is that we've HAD this ability for years. We should have realized it sooner how important it was, but we failed to (at least I have never seen it as extensivly discussed as it is right now with factual data).

Seeing now how important it is, I am very loathe to want to give up that leadership role and I hope to see increases in attack reduction (either as a differant resist check, or higher reduction total) made available to us in the future.

-Fenier

Kaeuvian
01-20-2006, 07:54 AM
What I feel is very important, is that we've HAD this ability for years. We should have realized it sooner how important it was, but we failed to (at least I have never seen it as extensivly discussed as it is right now with factual data).

I think thats all it is, most of us have made use of it but never thought to discuss/find out the real potential of it was.

dorda
01-20-2006, 09:04 AM
EHEH Fenier dont scream too loud .. or i see a nerf inc in that area too lolz.. great job pointing it out and showing the potential anyway. Myself, i always used all atk debuffs as soon as i had them .. always liked tanking a bit as well as charming .. and debuffs clearly had a big effect in both situations.

Hakeashar
02-15-2006, 07:25 AM
On our guild first kill of Vule, I was debuffing with HoR, SC, IotS and GB.

I looked up the totals after we won and all of our tanks were mentioning things like 'I think we got a gimped version somehow' and in group, the 2ndary tank said (general gist) "I was getting hit for around 1k and then all of a sudden, he was knocking the stardust <expletives removed> out of me for 4-5k, then it was back to the 1k rounds."

I mentioned then in the group I was using every attack/AC debuff we had and I still think it was largely overlooked by the group and I never reported it to /gu or our druid chat (mostly because nobody listens there anyway).

I couldn't tell during the amount of time I didn't have HoR on him, which was a few seconds inbetween wear-off message and successful recast and hold, whether the timing was synonymous or not. The subsequent Vule kills were much more difficult, iirc.

I had nothing to base my assumptions on as far as how much the AC helped the melee, the debuffs were helping our wizard crew and the one mage we own, plus how much it might have been helping the MT.

At -101 to AC, -190 to attack, -112 to FR and -55 to CR, it seemed to help an inordinate amount, we only lost each tank (2) once, whereas we were used to losing them 4-5 times each.

I dunno if any of that helps this discussion at all, I just thought I'd relay my own experience (while paying some attention anyway) of fully debuffing a mid-boss mob.

~Tar'Kaiden of Leviathan
1/2er Forest Scion (Expansion Cherrypicker) :)

Pinepath
02-17-2006, 10:29 PM
Back when I was soloing named in RCoD, stacking HoR and SC on the mobs pretty much made the difference between winning or not. On occasions getting attacked without the debuffs on, mob max hit was very common, rarely would get 3 combat rounds go by without a max hit. After debuffs, max hits were very rare, I have gone entire fights and killed the mob, and never once hit for max.

I think the best way to refer to the effect, is it being equal to adding *uncapped* AC to the tank. Most everyone these days is way over the AC softcap, even lots of AC has only a small effect, but atk debuffs work on the opposite side of the equation, and are not affected by AC softcap. Tell your tanks HoR on the mob, is equal to them equipping a 100 AC shield, if they know the game, that should get the message across.