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AbsorEQ
02-16-2006, 10:06 PM
I'm curious to hear comments!

A

Fenier
02-16-2006, 10:15 PM
I really enjoyed the new zones. I am looking forward to trying the missions and aquring the new spells.

I think Moonshadow seems to be the best spell of the new abilties druids get. 1100 Mana for a 1500 point Group Heal - 18 second Recast.

Barkspur I would need to experiment with a bit. Currently its a 8 shot DS which deals 1650(iirc) damage total (between all 8 hits combined) for 300 mana. Biggest bonus here is the damage is unresistable.

Aura of Life (replacement for Living Vine) may be a good ability as it slightly eases curing of disease based effects. Will need to play with it more in live encounters.

I think the new freeport looks awesome and I love the new Druid Ring in South Ro.

-Fenier

Stumps_Bertox
02-16-2006, 10:43 PM
Lucy has Moonshadow as a HoT, is it a direct heal?

Fenier
02-16-2006, 10:46 PM
Its a Direct Heal.

Aldier
02-17-2006, 12:45 AM
For the tradeskillers out there, SoE went out and recruited Ngreth, from EQTC to design the tradeskill additions for PoR. Lots of new recipes especially for fletching from 282+ for non Wood elf/non Karana worshippers as well as new trophies. The zones look really good graphically and lots of the new monster missions delve deeper into the lore and are a lot of fun.

The Aura of Life is a regen effect for your group and a cure (very minor). Will be interesting to see how it actually works. For those still working on the epic 1.5, don't worry, they did spend time to make sure the madman in north ro is still there and works. Also, while exploring around in beta, the greatest joy was finding all the Absor corpses scattered around the worlds and the Rashere (much more common) corpses as well.

Tenielle
02-17-2006, 03:48 AM
Been about a week since I last logged in, but I noticed you said there was a new spell to replace living vine. Good deal if so. Talk about a completely useless spell.

Sad to see a recast added to moonshadow though, can it still be mgbed?

One of my biggest complaints was the lag in Eldar Forest. I don't lag much in other zones but this one brought my machine to a crawl.

I just wish AAs had been added. Seems to me it makes more sense to add them in an expansion where there isn't 5 new levels to grind on top of new AAs. I had my AAs maxed again a month after DoDh was released, even getting AAs that didn't do much would be better than getting none at all. Least you don't feel like you're wasting most your time when questing.

Maybe there needs to be a new outlet for experience, since maxed AAs seems to be very common anymore.

Fenlayen
02-17-2006, 04:41 AM
Sad to see a recast added to moonshadow though, can it still be mgbed?


Being a direct group heal rather than a HoT it you won't be able to MGB it.

dorda
02-17-2006, 07:02 AM
Sigh I was eagerly expecting living vine...
as any improvement to my overnerfed CC ability (0).

Savage root doesnt hold, spore spiral kinda broken with that long recast. Area snare trap could really help on a bad pull.

I thought that was a trap that could really help soloing and work together with FD pulling in crowded areas.. bah a cure.. well thats gonna help raiding druids mybe, but myself i am not excited.

Living vine was probably the main reason i preordered the expansion GRR. Why was it removed?

Fenier
02-17-2006, 07:23 AM
Direct Heals can not be mgbd.

Living Vine was removed probly because it bordered on useless. Seriously how many snares do we need? We have like 5 already. Aura of Life is a very good replacement for it.

I forgot to mention eariler:

We get a new Teleport in PoR also. Ring / Circle of Arcstone

This brings you to a camp near the port in Area of the first zone in the Plane of Magic.

We also get Aura of the Grove - Lower verison of Aura of Life - level 55.

-Fenier

Pyne
02-17-2006, 07:25 AM
1100 mana for a 1500 hp grp heal every 18secs? :(

Fenier
02-17-2006, 07:31 AM
1100 mana for a 1500 hp grp heal every 18secs? :(

As base Yes.

Mana Pres, Focus, and Adept should all effect it - and pretty sure it crticals. I didn't play with it lots and lots, I did some testing on Barkspur which wsa stupid overpowered in its previous version.

-Fenier

Fenier
02-17-2006, 07:43 AM
Living vine was probably the main reason i preordered the expansion GRR. Why was it removed?

I went back and re-read the discussion on this.

The spell was highly resisted, and wore off in ticks (since it functions as a bard pulse). A few other verisons of the spell where attempted, root, root with dot, etc.

Finally we gave up and suggested an Aura, which has become Aura of the Grove (55) and Aura of Life (70).

-Fenier

Fenier
02-17-2006, 07:48 AM
Barkspur - 300 Mana, 8 hit DS for 210 Damage per hit. 1680 Damage Total, recast is appox 13 seconds (I think).

-Fenier

Fenlayen
02-17-2006, 07:56 AM
As base Yes.

Mana Pres, Focus, and Adept should all effect it - and pretty sure it crticals.

-Fenier


Hmmm you might want to confirm this and make sure it does. This spell is already limited you dont want it to go live without this.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 08:02 AM
Hmmm you might want to confirm this and make sure it does. This spell is already limited you dont want it to go live without this.

I'll log into Beta and test Mana Pres/Critical and post logs

I can not test focus as my focus of Discordant Healing does not function on group heals.

Fenlayen
02-17-2006, 08:10 AM
Just realised how many posts i've made on the beta boards about the druid/shaman spell recast issue compared to posts about cleric spells. Just goes to show how bland the cleric spells are :)

ohh well. :shuffle:

Fenier
02-17-2006, 08:34 AM
Current On Beta as of 8:30 AM EST

I am not sure the exact values on the Auras. This is all based on what my spellbook shows.

I am not sure on Barkspur's Recast, its at least 12 seconds.

Moonshadow:
Level 70
Cast Time 4.5
Mana Cost 1100
Recast Delay: 18 seconds

1500 Point Direct Group Heal

Mana Pres, Adept and Gift do work on this.

Barkspur
Level 70
Cast Time: 3.0
Mana Cost 300
Recast Delay 14? Seconds

8 Shot DS of 210 Damage Per Hit, Buff lasts 18 seconds.

Aura of Life
Level 70
Cast Time: 3.0
Mana Cost: 400

Regen Aura which cures disease

Aura of the Grove
Level 55
Cast Time: 6.0
Mana Cost 40

Heal Aura which cures diesase

Ring of Arcstone
Level 52
Cast Time: 7.0
Mana Cost: 150

Single Port to Arcstone

Circle of Arcstone
Level 52
Cast Time: 16.0
Mana Cost: 300

Teleports a Group to the Plane of Magic.

Mannwin Woobie
02-17-2006, 08:56 AM
How are the new spells obtained? Or do we need to wait for actual release to figure that out?

Fenlayen
02-17-2006, 08:57 AM
How are the new spells obtained? Or do we need to wait for actual release to figure that out?

We don't really know but my guess would be mission arcs like DoDH spells. Apart from the port ones which i would assume are merchant spells.

Nimchip
02-17-2006, 10:32 AM
Hmmm you might want to confirm this and make sure it does. This spell is already limited you dont want it to go live without this.

100% sure it does.

dorda
02-17-2006, 10:43 AM
I went back and re-read the discussion on this.

The spell was highly resisted, and wore off in ticks (since it functions as a bard pulse). A few other verisons of the spell where attempted, root, root with dot, etc.

Finally we gave up and suggested an Aura, which has become Aura of the Grove (55) and Aura of Life (70).

-Fenier

Well i thoght the devs could fix the resist issues... and why nothing worked? root, root with dot, snare auras were all good options..
was it because the spells were casted by a ridiculusly low level pet?

umm wouldnt have been better a some sort of mana regen aura as a replacement? We all agree that we need something in that department. An aura to make med breaks significantly shorter would benefit us all.

Netura
02-17-2006, 11:17 AM
Root with dot is bad as hell for CC due to summons.

Kaidman
02-17-2006, 11:26 AM
Well i thoght the devs could fix the resist issues... and why nothing worked? root, root with dot, snare auras were all good options..
was it because the spells were casted by a ridiculusly low level pet?

umm wouldnt have been better a some sort of mana regen aura as a replacement? We all agree that we need something in that department. An aura to make med breaks significantly shorter would benefit us all.

Enchanters got that aura (mana regen) and Rytan wasn't really wanting to just do a copy of others spells. A snare or root trap is very limited in it's usability (if that's a word). A cure aura is limited also, but it has hp regen. Unfortunately it sounds like this does not stack with our regen line of spells which doesn't make sense to me. Our normal regen is 55, Living Vine is only a 5 regen upgrade.

dorda
02-17-2006, 11:26 AM
a colorful way to wipe the group =) agreed

Basically the story of spore spiral repeats itself =( Aoe cone root ..
now single target but keeping the crap range, crap cast time and crap recast timer... bah

Instead .. yet another regen ..
How does it combine with the healing pet AA we already have???

Uh why is a snare or root trap limited in use? .. I was drooling to have something to put between puller and group to give the mezzer some more time to do its job .. or to make kiting CC easier in close quarters. It can really help in mob splitting too

Gaminide
02-17-2006, 11:29 AM
I wonder how does teh new group heal compare to SHM/CLR/PAL spells in terms of mana efficiency... any thoughts?

Fenier
02-17-2006, 11:34 AM
Uh why is a snare or root trap limited in use? .. I was drooling to have something to put between puller and group to give the mezzer some more time to do its job .. or to make kiting CC easier in close quarters. It can really help in mob splitting too

Mob Pulled - Trap Roots its over and over - outside camp. = Bad
Mob Pulled, makes it into camp, becomes rooted - aggro switching to proximity = Bad.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 11:38 AM
Umm well bad in some cases , in other lifesaving imo.
I still would drool over it. Would take time getting used to it but would open options.
Would be a fun spell that takes time to learn how to use imo.
Both snare and root auras would have their uses.


A regen? going to back of book prolly.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 11:42 AM
Both snare and root auras would have their uses.

I agree with this, but in the VAST majority of situations they would have no use what so ever.

Aura of Life is a regen, it has not been decided weather it was 60 / tick and does not stack with spell regen *or* 30/tick and does stack with spell regen - that was still undecided afaik.

In addition to this, it cures disease effects - granted the amount per pulse is fairly small but as curing - esp in a AE fashion is one of our stronger complients I can see this getting far more use then Living Vine ever would have.

-Fenier

Fenlayen
02-17-2006, 11:42 AM
I wonder how does teh new group heal compare to SHM/CLR/PAL spells in terms of mana efficiency... any thoughts?

The best cleric group heal is (excluding group CH)
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5270&source=Live

So thats 3427 hp healed for 1357 mana plus cure counters

The best palading group heal is
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5296&source=Live

1316 hp for 1048.



So the druid group heal is more effiecent than the paladins (more so if you factor in AAs) but a lot less efficent than the cleric one. The Shaman spell should be more mana effiecent than any direct heal because it's a HoT but how it compares to the new cleric spell I'll have to check

dorda
02-17-2006, 11:44 AM
I agree with this, but in the VAST majority of situations they would have no use what so ever.

Aura of Life is a regen, it has not been decided weather it was 60 / tick and does not stack with spell regen *or* 30/tick and does stack with spell regen - that was still undecided afaik.

In addition to this, it cures disease effects - granted the amount per pulse is fairly small but as curing - esp in a AE fashion is one of our stronger complients I can see this getting far more use then Living Vine ever would have.

-Fenier

sigh fenier .. i might be thick but i dont see any outside a raid context =(

dorda
02-17-2006, 11:45 AM
I agree with this, but in the VAST majority of situations they would have no use what so ever.

Aura of Life is a regen, it has not been decided weather it was 60 / tick and does not stack with spell regen *or* 30/tick and does stack with spell regen - that was still undecided afaik.

In addition to this, it cures disease effects - granted the amount per pulse is fairly small but as curing - esp in a AE fashion is one of our stronger complients I can see this getting far more use then Living Vine ever would have.

-Fenier

sigh fenier .. i might be thick but i dont see any outside a raid context =(
And we already have the Boon thingie doing exactly that .. apart from the desease curing. Or not?
anyway 30/tick or 60/tick .. even 200/tick .. what good do they do when mobs quad for 3k even in grouping contexts? (which would be the case when we need highened healing)

back of spell book...

Fenier
02-17-2006, 11:51 AM
sigh fenier .. i might be thick but i dont see any outside a raid context =(
I'd like to stop you right here and mention to you that slows typically are diseased based, and are removed with Pure Blood (which cures disease).

That said, assume(just assume) that you have Resplendant 3 and the slow tha thits your melee heavy group lands on everyone and has 30 counters (high, but lets go with it)

Aura Pulse (assume 3, again, random number)
Respendant (25)
Aura Pulse (3)

Counters removed in 6 seconds = 30, for the entire group.

This is in addition to providing a decent regen (again, either way the spell turns out working) and allows you to totally ignore minor disease effects - because you can be assiured the Aura *will* cure them within a few pulses. Thus, you are allowed to focus on other things.

On the Raid side of things, Arch Magus's AE and similar content has effects which cause DTs if not cured. Even if you are Superdruid(tm) You can NOT cure 6 people before the DT effect Fires due to the spells cast time, and your recast delay, you will hit a maximum of 5.


anyway 30/tick or 60/tick .. even 200/tick .. what good do they do when mobs quad for 3k even in grouping contexts? (which would be the case when we need highened healing)

I am prety sure the song pulse stacks with Nature's Boom. If it does it would place healing per tick at 130/160 assumming they stack.

An AE 150+ / tick group heal is nothing to laugh at. It can help bridge the time between heals ever so slightly on the afformentioned named that hits hard. It can be used in conjunction with attack reduction (lower average hits) and reptile to assist in reducing the amounnt of direct healing needed.

I think the Aura is useful, and adding 150 tick regen to your group is not a bad thing by any means.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 11:59 AM
Hmmmm back of book. I am a grouping druid and never get into melee heavy groups and never found myself in AOE slow situations.
VERY uncommon (see never) gonna use this pet prolly.

What i dont like is that it doesnt open any new option or tactics for our class, it just allows to do easier things we have already.
Do as you please .. but as a grouping druid i dont like it.
150/tick .. umm if the mob is doing 1kdps .. its 6K/tick ... 2.5% less healing needed wont change much. Yes would use it as anything helps .. but /yawn .. reptile was innovative, not a /yawn regen

tactics tactics!! i want to use the terrain for tactical advantage, now that's cool

Fenier
02-17-2006, 12:03 PM
Hmmmm back of book. I am a grouping druid and never get into melee heavy groups and never found myself in AOE slow situations.
VERY uncommon (see never) gonna use this pet prolly.
And that is your choice. I spend 95 percent of my time healing DoD Missions 9Normal and Hard) without a cleric and I can see using this in some of those missions.


What i dont like is that it doesnt open any new option or tactics for our class, it just allows to do easier things we have already.
You will have to explain to me how having a snare or root trap does not allow us to do things we already do.

The root trap sucked.

The Snare trap - may have been - marginally, if that -useful at best.

Personally I perfer the Aura.


150/tick .. umm if the mob is doing 1kdps .. its 6K/tick ... 2.5% less healing needed wont change much.

I see very few mobs anywhere near that level of dps after debuffs and slow land in groupable content. But if you want to look at it this way - exactly how much does having a mob snared with a random duration snare help you on boss fights (which are typically immune anyway).

If you answered 0 (which should be the only answer to that question) then 2.5 percent (we'll use your numbers) is *still* more bennifical.

-Fenier

Kaidman
02-17-2006, 12:08 PM
The only way a trap would've been useful is if it was setup like an aura. Having the trap follow the druid around and lasting 30 minutes. That is not how traps are setup though, from my understanding you place a trap where you want it and it only lasts 1-2 minutes. I was kind of hoping for a snare pet following us around for 30 minutes, but that's not how traps are I believe.

dorda
02-17-2006, 12:13 PM
a trap that sucks in roamers holding them at bay giving more time to kill the pulled mobs (RSS going to riftseekers for example?)
a trap that allows to have a safe spot to drag the mobs if u mispulled allowing to have that 3 seconds necessary to root?
a trap that slows down 2-4 mobs running unsnared to group giving the enc 2 more seconds?
a trap where you can pull a camp then evac .. 1/2 of the mobs unsnared come back to spot 1/2 stay in the trap ... split?
a trap to snare when u have to pull with dispell?
on on....

Well make it an aura with:

AOE snare for mobs
Regen for players (or even better, make reptile heal for more within the aura)
Cure desease for players

Now this would make both of us happy .. and a druid aura should be both positive and negative in nature to keep the balance =)

Fenier
02-17-2006, 12:19 PM
In 3 of those situations, you want to use the trap to adjust for player error (overpulling).

The arguement you have for splitting a mob is somewhat valid, but you would not want to be using a random duration root or snare to pull this off. Accounting for load times your still going to want to be using something like Serpent's Vines because

A: Its not resisted nearly as often as anything else
B: The duration is somewhat decent allowing you to get back to where you where


One of the main issues you are missing with Traps - is if the trap is AE, and it fires when a mob you did not plan on wanders near - and the mob resists the trap, the mob is still aggro, and may aggro your group when otherwise it would have walked past.

-Fenier

Fenier
02-17-2006, 12:21 PM
AOE snare for mobs
Regen for players (or even better, make reptile heal for more within the aura)
Cure desease for players

The Main thing I see wrong with this is Auras (at least every one I have seen) are bennifical where Traps are determinal.

There are no combined effects between the two.

-Fenier

Sildan
02-17-2006, 12:23 PM
Mana Pres, Focus, and Adept should all effect it - and pretty sure it crticals. I didn't play with it lots and lots, I did some testing on Barkspur which wsa stupid overpowered in its previous version.


Well somehow most of my gear is gone on beta but I tested this. I did still have my Quickening of Druzzil and Penuriousness of the Ikaav. Both effects did fire off with Moonshadow. I also had 2 crits for 3840. Spell appears to be working fine.

Not sure what the actual base of the spell is. If its 1920 then Adept is not working. Lucy still shows it as a HoT so hard to tell. I suppose someone could test it with a beta toon that has no heal AA's.

My initial thoughts on the expansion are pretty good. It doesn't bring out my DoDH loathing feelings.

dorda
02-17-2006, 12:27 PM
In 3 of those situations, you want to use the trap to adjust for player error (overpulling).
-Fenier

Well too many missions now REQUIRE that you have a puller .. so the holy trinity has now become holy quadruple ... bards really being the kings of pulling.

Some missions took hours of mispulls, deaths and zoneouts with FD pullers .. while a bard made it so stupidly simple.

So war, cle, enc, bard.

I think we could help with pulling when a bard is not around, making it easier for a non-fade puller to do its job. Or to be able to do SOMETHING if you dont have a puller in group.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 12:31 PM
So war, cle, enc, bard.


I think what you ment to say here was:

Tank (War/Paladin/SK), Healer (Druid, Cleric, Shaman), CC or Puller (Rare missions require two), Slower (Chanter, Bard, Beastlord, Shaman).

Based on this you still have several classes which can do more then one job:

Shaman, Bard, Enchanter

My typical groups include a Bard, but not an enchanter, We include very rarely any additional healers. On groups (even DoD hards) where no Bard was available, Juniper has done an excellant job pulling with her Necromancer.

So, I strongly - disagree with that statement.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 12:44 PM
Well yes when i grouped with a really good necro which was pet pulling (not FD!) 70/2 normal went smooth like with a bard ..

a monk FD pulling made the mission with all the bunched mushrooms off corathus on hard a total pain .. he was sying every other pull and was pulling 3 often .. and our tank could only take 1. Of course with anguish tanks u can resist that few seconds needed to mez the adds.

Pickup groups are fragile things .. in some 1 add is enough to wipe.. even if u have an enc in group. Because your tank can only stand 2 seconds of 2 unslowed mobs. Mez 1 or root 1 before it comes into melee and you survive. (but we cant do that with broken spore spiral grr)

When grouped with ubers things are so easy .. i almost did Widdle 4 with a MONK tanking (and a ranger after) and me (DRU) healing .. mobs were going down in bunches, np healing ... well wiped on 3rd or 4th named powerup (was quadding 3k) but that was amazing.

Shamans are pullers too????????

Anyway why so wrong us to have something to make pulling/cc easier???

Fenier
02-17-2006, 12:48 PM
In exactly none of the missions you just listed would a trap have performed better then a player actually using snare or root.

I've even seen druids Egress pull the entire 69.2 mission you listed.

You have failed to convince me that we would have drastically benefitted from a snare/root trap.


Anyway why so wrong us to have something to make pulling/cc easier???

Since Omens we have recieved:
1 Upgrade to Harmony
3 Snares
1 Root

So the last *3* expansions we've gotten something to assist in CC or Pulling.

Pretty sure we can take a break for the next 6 months on getting yet more ways to snare a mob, considering we have 6 as is.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 12:51 PM
eh you have failed to convince me i would benefit from a regen/cure aura =)

in the 69/2 a snare trap in front of the group would have allowed the enc to mez the adds.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 12:58 PM
in the 69/2 a snare trap in front of the group would have allowed the enc to mez the adds.

Which could have also been accomplished via kitting the Mushrooms, Rooting them via pretargeting as they round the corner, or offtanking them. You could have even snared them as they round the corner.

Now, before you say - but I was the healer, I am going to mention that a vast majority of classes get root and several other then Druids can snare. The chances of having a full group where you are the only one who can root and snare is amazingly small.

Since both mobs are approching unsnared in your example, the rate of travel means they will reach the group at appox the same time given travel distance. If you had pulled with snare, then it should be exceptionally easy to root the snared one before it reachs camp as the rate of travel is lower then the one who is incoming at full speed.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 12:58 PM
Since Omens we have recieved:
1 Upgrade to Harmony
3 Snares
1 Root


- old harmony was resisted
- ensnare was resisted
- savage root was breaking all the time/resisted

We just got back something we used to have at lower level .. nothing new.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 01:00 PM
- old harmony was resisted
- ensnare was resisted
- savage root was breaking all the time/resisted

We just got back something we used to have at lower level .. nothing new

Which is exactly what the ability to snare via a trap is - Nothing new.

At least with the Aura we finally get a group cure, which is something we have not been able to do before with the sole exception of using RC once every 2-3 minutes.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 01:02 PM
1) i wasnt the puller.
2) mobs were not coming immediatly but while the first one was already engaged (mushrooms used the puller corpse to create new mushrooms)

Back of the book ... dont need anything else then RC atm. This spell overlaps with 2 aa groups we got, both the Boon line and the RC line .. bah.

While hunting Stoneroot skillshins or orcs i could really use something that snares for me after i pull with dispell. Or that gives time to root the adds while soloing. And the other things i listed.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 01:08 PM
1) i wasnt the puller.
2) mobs were not coming immediatly but while the first one was already engaged (mushrooms used the puller corpse to create new mushrooms)

Back of the book ... dont need anything else then RC atm.

While hunting Stoneroot skillshins or orcs i could really use something that snares for me after i pull with dispell.
1: Your pulling or not is irrealvant to my point.
2: This makes your compliant - not that you had difficutly spiliting mobs, but that you had difficult keeping the puller alive (tank aggro, lack of heals, etc) inso much that it caused other issues for you.

Given that, Living Vine would not have helped you - since mobs where in camp already, so this makes your arguement moot in this perticular situation.

Now..

This is going to sound harsh

You may not need anything other then RC atm, that does not mean the druid class as a whole would not gain from something which cured their group as a passive effect while increasing their hitpoint regen.

I would even argue that more druids will gain from Aura of Life then they would from Living Vine. This is esp true because the Aura grants powers from 2 Seperate AA lines, without requiring the Druid have the AA invested in those lines.

-Fenier

Naeyene
02-17-2006, 01:12 PM
Pickup groups are fragile things .. in some 1 add is enough to wipe.. even if u have an enc in group. Because your tank can only stand 2 seconds of 2 unslowed mobs. Mez 1 or root 1 before it comes into melee and you survive. (but we cant do that with broken spore spiral grr)
I really hate derailing topics... But Dorda you are making me sad.

Firstly, there is no reason to consistanly be grouped with pick-up groups. Make the groups yourself. Find people you know. Take them. If you have common intrests then you CAN and WILL find yourself grouping together alot.

Secondly, if you find that groups are failing consistantly, and you aren't having people come back to your groups that you make, perhaps the problem lies with you and your play style?

Thirdly, in the above instance... We have had a druid pull that mission and kite the adds... You don't need a bard / necro / monk. You need competence.

When grouped with ubers things are so easy .. i almost did Widdle 4 with a MONK tanking (and a ranger after) and me (DRU) healing .. mobs were going down in bunches, np healing ... well wiped on 3rd or 4th named powerup (was quadding 3k) but that was amazing.

My group make up is usually: Fenier, myself (my magelo for pally is linked in sig), Daveon, and Juniper/Arkaron -- (insert two random people here). Look up thier magelo profiles.Out of the people I group with... I wouldn't call any of us "uber" by todays standards. We have successfully done every single mission in DoD minus maybe 2? (And thats because we haven't tried them, yet.)

So, not to derail this topic anymore... I'll get back on subject. I think that the Aura would be useful, if your thinking of it as something that aids in healing a tank being quadded for 1k then your not seeing its usesful side, and you are looking at it from a perspective I do not think it was intended for. Its a group cure you didnt have before. Its able to save you mana by regening your groups health back up quickly. (Less patching).

--Nae

P.S. That boss in Widdlethorp 4 hits like a pansy if you debuff him.

dorda
02-17-2006, 01:17 PM
2: This makes your compliant - not that you had difficutly spiliting mobs, but that you had difficult keeping the puller alive (tank aggro, lack of heals, etc) inso much that it caused other issues for you.

Given that, Living Vine would not have helped you - since mobs where in camp already, so this makes your arguement moot in this perticular situation.


1) you dont heal a FD puller when it uses FD u know that... even if mobs arent fooled by FD.
2) yes it would have helped .. as the adds were popping up from puller corpse which wasnt in camp. Add running to us .. 6 seconds instead of 2 changes a lot. Mobs were not in camp.

What really hurts me is that the decision was taken without any discussion. I dont have to convince you of anything, while if you take decisions for the druid community its YOUR task to convince us that the choice was right... especially if some of us had specific expectations which are now gone.

Is there still a way to cancel the subscription to PoR before the patch?

Fenier
02-17-2006, 01:25 PM
What really hurts me is that the decision was taken without any discussion. I dont have to convince you of anything, while if you take decisions for the druid community its YOUR task to convince us that the choice was right... especially if some of us had specific expectations which are now gone.


Actually, I did Zero discussion on the Sony Forums about this, I talked about Barkspur and Moonshadow mostly. I also made a few comments abotu changes to the Ruins of Takish-Hiz

I will tell you flat out tho, that there was 4 -5 pages of discussion on the effect of Living Vine and its change to Aura of Life.

I think really the main issue here is you based a large portion of what you expected on Spell Data from a unreleased expansion. All of that is highly subject to change during the beta process.

The Beta Process showed that the snare effect was highly limited / undesirable, that does not need an ok from the Druid Forums here. Rytan took the feedback we gave him and between those posting and testing Living Vine/Aura of Life - came up with a fairly workable option.

Now I am really sorry you don't like the change - but they never promised anywhere that Druids would get Living Vine as a ability in the expansion. The effect didn't make the cut and was removed. While that may suck for you - Niether Sony nor the Players testing in beta had any obligation to make sure this effect went to live - and thus made you happy.

So, having re-read the threads in Beta in order to try to explain to you the process which the change went through, I have a pretty good understanding of why the effect was changed like this. I am sorry you don't agree.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 01:29 PM
I really hate derailing topics... But Dorda you are making me sad.

Sorry to hear that wonder why ... you are making me angry instead as you are insulting.

1) i do as it pleases me .. i also won most of the DOD missions on normal and hard. I pickup people that i find lfg .. sometimes good players sometimes not. I sometimes let people play that would just sit lfg otherwise. Some i wont reinvite, most i would. I play at different times,and i change people i play with depending on time.
2) i have lotsa friends which come group with me and there.
3) dont derail the thread with how good you are and how should i play plz .. we are discussing something else.

dorda
02-17-2006, 01:32 PM
ok Fenier .. checking the SOE forums then .. i dont look them much. My fault.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 01:33 PM
ok Fenier .. checking the SOE forums then .. i dont look them much. My fault.

These where the Beta forums, unless you where in beta - you won't be able to access them.

-Fenier

Naeyene
02-17-2006, 01:45 PM
Sorry to hear that wonder why ... you are making me angry instead as you are insulting.

1) i do as it pleases me .. i also won most of the DOD missions on normal and hard. I pickup people that i find lfg .. sometimes good players sometimes not. I sometimes let people play that would just sit lfg otherwise. Some i wont reinvite, most i would. I play at different times,and i change people i play with depending on time.
2) i have lotsa friends which come group with me and there.
3) dont derail the thread with how good you are and how should i play plz .. we are discussing something else.
It wasn't meant as an insult, it was an observation. I was stating that people who aren't uber can do those missions, as long as they are compentent players. The fact that you have managed to actually put pick-up groups together to win them is creditable, I wouldn't be caught dead in a pick-up group, to many negative out comes.

--Nae

Pinepath
02-17-2006, 01:55 PM
Personally, I would have suggested either a damage shield or proc heal aura. Something that puts a buff on all in range than either does a 500 pt one hit DS like wrath of wild, or a 400 pt proc-when-hit buff like lizard skin, that has 2 or 3 max procs.

dorda
02-17-2006, 01:59 PM
. The fact that you have managed to actually put pick-up groups together to win them is creditable, I wouldn't be caught dead in a pick-up group, to many negative out comes.
--Nae

It actually what makes EQ for me really challenging =) Doing the missions with whatever players i find lfg... When in uber group things go so smooth to become boring! Unless doing crazy groups like yesterday.. But more tools to even out the edges are welcome... things get too frustrating sometimes.

As for keeping the AOE snare effect in living vine alongside what you decided it has now, why not? Myself i see 1000 uses for a trap casting the snare i dont have the time to cast for 1000 reasons.

Aldier
02-17-2006, 02:03 PM
Sorry to hear that wonder why ... you are making me angry instead as you are insulting.

1) i do as it pleases me .. i also won most of the DOD missions on normal and hard. I pickup people that i find lfg .. sometimes good players sometimes not. I sometimes let people play that would just sit lfg otherwise. Some i wont reinvite, most i would. I play at different times,and i change people i play with depending on time.
2) i have lotsa friends which come group with me and there.
3) dont derail the thread with how good you are and how should i play plz .. we are discussing something else.

Dorda. You are forgetting something else about the traps. Traps work only on the tick in Everquest. So you have to keep the mob IN one spot until the next tick goes off for it to even have a chance. You are disagreeing with someone and your arguements are flawed in logic. You claim we need another snare???

How many other people here think we needed a new snare spell this expansion? Was the new oneS with DoN not enough?

Aldier
02-17-2006, 02:07 PM
1) you dont heal a FD puller when it uses FD u know that... even if mobs arent fooled by FD.
2) yes it would have helped .. as the adds were popping up from puller corpse which wasnt in camp. Add running to us .. 6 seconds instead of 2 changes a lot. Mobs were not in camp.

What really hurts me is that the decision was taken without any discussion. I dont have to convince you of anything, while if you take decisions for the druid community its YOUR task to convince us that the choice was right... especially if some of us had specific expectations which are now gone.

Is there still a way to cancel the subscription to PoR before the patch?

1) If your FD puller knows what to do, then they wont be FDing after the mobs are on top of them, they will work with the pathing to split the mobs. No you don't heal them but they shouldn't need a lot of healing if they know what they are doing.

2) What mission did you say you were in with that where when someone dies an add pops out of their corpse? I know this is occurs on some raid mobs but I do not recall it happening in any group settings. There is plenty of discussion, you just weren't apart of them. Sorry, you didn't get into beta. You did not see how worthless the snare trap was. It did not function as you expected it to. Have a little faith in the druid community that was in beta that DID get to see it and use it and now some are coming here to tell you what to expect. Sorry you are unhappy and go ahead and cancel all your accounts, it won't phase SoE in the least.

Aldier
02-17-2006, 02:10 PM
1) i wasnt the puller.
2) mobs were not coming immediatly but while the first one was already engaged (mushrooms used the puller corpse to create new mushrooms)

Back of the book ... dont need anything else then RC atm. This spell overlaps with 2 aa groups we got, both the Boon line and the RC line .. bah.

While hunting Stoneroot skillshins or orcs i could really use something that snares for me after i pull with dispell. Or that gives time to root the adds while soloing. And the other things i listed.

Think of it as a combination that stacks with BOTH previous aa lines.

Aura's have their own window like songs. So you have Nature's Boon in the song window, and Aura of Life in the aura window. RC still works with the Aura. Why would you not want something that beneficially stacks with 2 existing aa lines and further improves on the abilities without the cost of aa to get direct upgrades to those aa abilities?

dorda
02-17-2006, 02:12 PM
Dorda. You are forgetting something else about the traps. Traps work only on the tick in Everquest. So you have to keep the mob IN one spot until the next tick goes off for it to even have a chance. You are disagreeing with someone and your arguements are flawed in logic. You claim we need another snare???

How many other people here think we needed a new snare spell this expansion? Was the new oneS with DoN not enough?

Bah every tick? thats crap i agree .. i was thinking something triggered when mob enters a AOE range and that has effect as long as the mob is in that range.
DON snare needs to be casted .. need 3 seconds for that. There are several situations i have were that 3 seconds are not there. (ever had a couple of unsnared SOE running mobs behind you?)

dorda
02-17-2006, 02:15 PM
Think of it as a combination that stacks with BOTH previous aa lines.

Aura's have their own window like songs. So you have Nature's Boon in the song window, and Aura of Life in the aura window. RC still works with the Aura. Why would you not want something that beneficially stacks with 2 existing aa lines and further improves on the abilities without the cost of aa to get direct upgrades to those aa abilities?

cause its nothing new =) I was hoping and drooling for a new toy ... sorry childish to get angry if someone takes the toy away

Aldier
02-17-2006, 02:16 PM
As for keeping the AOE snare effect in living vine alongside what you decided it has now, why not? Myself i see 1000 uses for a trap casting the snare i dont have the time to cast for 1000 reasons.

What good is that trap snare if it only lasts 1 tick, 2ticks 3 ticks at most?? Also what happens when it snares when you dont want it to? Why do you expect druids to get the best of everything all the time? Running around with AoE snare on everything aroudn you while healing you and curing you?

YOU, I assume you are refering to Fenier, did not make a unilateral decision to make it this. Fenier, out of the kindness of his heart came here to post information about the upcoming expansion to let the druid community here know what is coming up. Nimchip was in beta, if he had posted it, or Kaidman, would you still be attacking them? There was more than Fenier playing a druid in beta. The only YOU that can be blamed for the change are the devs so why don't you take your anger out on them and not us. *Apologies to Nim and Kaid, you just 2 druids I remember in beta that read/post here often :).

Alaene
02-17-2006, 02:18 PM
Just to add a voice to the minority, I would definately have made use of a snare trap, had one been properly implemented.

I'm not going to get into comparing whether or not I like the alternative, but if you take away all the the-way-EQ-works-based gimping of what is essentially a great concept, a snare trap would have been useful for all the reasons dorda stated.

Why another snare? A snare that you can precast, and have waiting for a mob when it runs over a patch of ground that you've pre-determined? That's so totally unlike any other snare we have that it's insane to call it "just another snare".

If it was made at Serpent Vine resist levels, with Serpent Vine duration, the trap fired on any mob that walked into it (regardless of tick status), and the trap lasted a decent length of time (and perhaps is mobile, as Kaidman suggested) then hell yes!

As people have pointed out, there are risks - agroing mobs you didn't anticipate as an obvious example. But that's fine, nothing in EQ is without risk and that kind of thing is the balance that requires the druid to actually think about what he's doing.

Give me a snare trap, sure, but don't insult me by implementing a broke ass and useless piece of trash, and then shrugging when it turns out to be useless.

Aldier
02-17-2006, 02:19 PM
Bah every tick? thats crap i agree .. i was thinking something triggered when mob enters a AOE range and that has effect as long as the mob is in that range.
DON snare needs to be casted .. need 3 seconds for that. There are several situations i have were that 3 seconds are not there. (ever had a couple of unsnared SOE running mobs behind you?)

How long do you think it takes to set the trap. If you have 3 unsnared SOE mobs running behind you... unless you planned to be running from them *why didn't you snare one or root one to begin with* then you wouldn't have time to set the trap while on the run. Also, EQ works on the tick for spells/effects. Why wouldn't traps be the same? And I do not recall from my testing of it, but the trap only lasted a short time so it could dissappear before you even got back.

Aldier
02-17-2006, 02:22 PM
Just to add a voice to the minority, I would definately have made use of a snare trap, had one been properly implemented.

I'm not going to get into comparing whether or not I like the alternative, but if you take away all the the-way-EQ-works-based gimping of what is essentially a great concept, a snare trap would have been useful for all the reasons dorda stated.

Why another snare? A snare that you can precast, and have waiting for a mob when it runs over a patch of ground that you've pre-determined? That's so totally unlike any other snare we have that it's insane to call it "just another snare".

If it was made at Serpent Vine resist levels, with Serpent Vine duration, the trap fired on any mob that walked into it (regardless of tick status), and the trap lasted a decent length of time (and perhaps is mobile, as Kaidman suggested) then hell yes!

As people have pointed out, there are risks - agroing mobs you didn't anticipate as an obvious example. But that's fine, nothing in EQ is without risk and that kind of thing is the balance that requires the druid to actually think about what he's doing.

Give me a snare trap, sure, but don't insult me by implementing a broke ass and useless piece of trash, and then shrugging when it turns out to be useless.

This all true. Yet the hostility is not being directed at SoE or the developers that make the spells, implamented the changes, etc. It is being directed at the first druid who was in beta to come here and post about his experiences and inform the druid community here about what was listed at start of beta and what can probably be expected for when it goes live.

Sure, who wouldn't want a snare that is almost never resisted, lasts a good amount of time (reliably) can be set up and planned out to take care of the work for you and always triggers and never fails and takes the rist out of things?? But that is not what was implamented on beta and the people in beta worked with what was given to them and went from there.

dorda
02-17-2006, 02:22 PM
well said alaene =)

dorda
02-17-2006, 02:29 PM
This all true. Yet the hostility is not being directed at SoE or the developers that make the spells, implamented the changes, etc. It is being directed at the first druid who was in beta to come here and post about his experiences and inform the druid community here about what was listed at start of beta and what can probably be expected for when it goes live.

1) Sorry no hostility against Fenier or none of you.. he is a great druid.
2) I am discussing against removing the snare trap when SOE implicitly promised it by putting the spells in Lucy sometimes ago.
3) In fact thats fraudolent advertisment , you cant sell some things luring people into some features when the final product doesnt have them.
4) being subject to a fraud makes me angry and frustrated especially because there is nothing i can do
5) i feel i was lured already into a fraud like this with spore spiral which was advertised as a very different spell until beta finished
6) please dont ask me to be happy about the change .. with time i might just get over it.
7) SOE has the power to implement every feature they want, but nerfing is a LOT less complex and requires MUCh less braincells and money then implement things right. I see stupidity ruling in everyday life here in Italy .. i want my virtual life to be a bit better than that =)

Aldier
02-17-2006, 02:40 PM
1) Sorry no hostility against Fenier or none of you.. he is a great druid.
2) I am discussing against removing the snare trap when SOE implicitly promised it by putting the spells in Lucy sometimes ago.
3) In fact thats fraudolent advertisment , you cant sell some things luring people into some features when the final product doesnt have them.
4) being subject to a fraud makes me angry and frustrated especially because there is nothing i can do
5) i feel i was lured already into a fraud like this with spore spiral
6) please dont ask me to be happy about the change .. with time i might just get over it.

Who controls Lucy? Now if say it showed up in EQPlayers under the spell prior to launch that is one thing. Also, beta and the test server is just that SoE takes an idea, tries to implament it, gets players to try it out sees how it works, takes feedback, adjusts things according to the feedback and if it looks good and might work, pushes it to live where it can be nerfed out of existance if needbe. It is not fraudulent advertising. No where did SoE say, go read their website with the promotions/features link, "druids will get a trap that snares."

And points 4 and 5 just sound like "wah....wah..wah...wah....wah"

No one is asking you to be happy. We are telling you here are the changes from the start of beta to the end and based on the testing done in beta the snare one wasn't working, at least the new regen/cure one has a chance at helping.

dorda
02-17-2006, 02:47 PM
bah ok .. crap. Back of my book. Situational.

This thread was started by a dev wanting to hear feedback BTW. Not by Fenier. I am aswering to that Dev with my impressions. No offense to any.

Uh did Lucy invent that spells? Dont know where Lucy gets its info from.

Also, usually if a feature is bugged SOE could debug and fix it .. not remove it altogether.
Removing is just easier.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 02:50 PM
2) I am discussing against removing the snare trap when SOE implicitly promised it by putting the spells in Lucy sometimes ago.

Sony did not promise Living Vine. Sony does not own Lucy. Lucy is ran by a fansite which parses the spdat file to give insight into how spells work. Lucy is not perfect.

3) In fact thats fraudolent advertisment , you cant sell some things luring people into some features when the final product doesnt have them.

This sounds like something I would have expected from Megn. No where on their site did they assure the Druid Players we woudl get Living Vine. Its not listed on their features page for PoR, nor for any information released offically to the druid class since announcment.


4) being subject to a fraud makes me angry and frustrated especially because there is nothing i can do

Except, you where not subject to Fraud became they never said you would get it in the first place.


5) i feel i was lured already into a fraud like this with spore spiral which was advertised as a very different spell until beta finished

Spore Spiral wasnt' advertised. Sony lists "new spells" they do nto list every spell and what the spell does because it often changes during beta.

-Fenier

Fenier
02-17-2006, 02:54 PM
cause its nothing new =) I was hoping and drooling for a new toy ... sorry childish to get angry if someone takes the toy away

Except it is new. Auras by defination - are new. Having an effect which heals and cures the group for 30 minuites - is new, doubly so because we have no previous effect which does this.

Having snare on a mob - even if it was from a trap, is not new. Weather the trap snares, or you snare - snare is not a new concept, nor is AE Snare a new concept.

-Fenier

Fenier
02-17-2006, 02:56 PM
If it was made at Serpent Vine resist levels, with Serpent Vine duration, the trap fired on any mob that walked into it (regardless of tick status), and the trap lasted a decent length of time (and perhaps is mobile, as Kaidman suggested) then hell yes!


However, it wasn't - and that is the exact reason it was changed. How Living Vine worked was not viable.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 02:57 PM
plz read the post from Alaene, she espressed the concept much better than i could do.

Having regen/cure from an aura is new while having snare from a trap is not?? Oh c'mon!

Fenier
02-17-2006, 02:58 PM
Personally, I would have suggested either a damage shield or proc heal aura. Something that puts a buff on all in range than either does a 500 pt one hit DS like wrath of wild, or a 400 pt proc-when-hit buff like lizard skin, that has 2 or 3 max procs.

We already get Barkspur as one of our spells in PoR - which is a high powered DS.

Auras are an interesting idea, but no aura I am aware of is as powerful as what you are suggesting.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 03:00 PM
However, it wasn't - and that is the exact reason it was changed. How Living Vine worked was not viable.
-Fenier

and they couldnt fix it??

Fenier
02-17-2006, 03:01 PM
plz read the post from Alaene, she espressed the concept much better than i could do.

Having regen/cure from an aura is new while having snare from a trap is not?? Oh c'mon!

I've read and replied to her as well.

A Regen/Cure ability is not something we have ever had prior. it has been typically one, or the other.

Snare we have had in abundance.

How snare is delivered doesn't make snare new because snare is a old concept.

To be perfectly honest I am shocked Aura of Life has gotten the level of debate it has and no one has so much as mentioned any of the other spells really.

-Fenier

dorda
02-17-2006, 03:01 PM
uh .. must go home =) later all goodnite

AbsorEQ
02-17-2006, 03:06 PM
2) I am discussing against removing the snare trap when SOE implicitly promised it by putting the spells in Lucy sometimes ago.
3) In fact thats fraudolent advertisment , you cant sell some things luring people into some features when the final product doesnt have them.

Yikes?

It should be very clear that spells, NPCs, art... everything that you might see or hear about in beta can and most likely will change during the course of beta. If it didn't then there really wouldn't be any point to beta.

And the sad truth is that we can't please everyone with anything we do. I'm sorry if this isn't what you personally wanted to see.

A

Fenier
02-17-2006, 03:09 PM
and they couldnt fix it??

Initnal feedback was.. we'll say exceptionally poor.

Fairly early on the druids who where in beta asked for possiably another effect. The current verison was suggested, made and tested.

So no, they couldn't fix it because it was pretty clear for most people in beta this wasn't what they where looking for considering the sheer amouint of root/snare abilites we've gained int he past 18 months.

-Fenier

Fenier
02-17-2006, 03:10 PM
It should be very clear that spells, NPCs, art... everything that you might see or hear about in beta can and most likely will change during the course of beta. If it didn't then there really wouldn't be any point to beta.


Truest Statement Ever!

AbsorEQ
02-17-2006, 03:15 PM
Truest Statement Ever!

Do I win a prize?!

A

Fenier
02-17-2006, 03:20 PM
Do I win a prize?!

A

Yes You do! Johnny tell him what he won...

ABSOR you've won a lifetime supply of Rice O'Roni, and a all expense paid trip to the local Minimart!

So now that you've won the grand prize, are you going to Disney World?!

-Fenier

Beatslayer
02-17-2006, 03:25 PM
2) I am discussing against removing the snare trap when SOE implicitly promised it by putting the spells in Lucy sometimes ago.

lol! isn't Lucy run by allakhazam, a totally different business than Sony. And doesn't Lucy have a warning notice, warning all readers that the effects it lists are only their "best interpretation" of the actual info mined from EQ, assuring some errors? And, every single expansion, doesn't some Dev tell players over and over not to hold Lucy information as the holy grail, because the purpose of Beta is to make changes?

Sounds like 'same old, same old'

Personally, my first thought was to lay my root trap down in the corner of some hallway, then pull a train and watch as the majority of them get stuck in the trap while the remainder trickle through one by one as they occasionally resist the root. But, if it takes a mob less time to run through the center of the trap than the recycle of the root effect, that is totally pointless.

On the other hand, an aura that grants improved regen and slowly cures harmful counters, might serve a greater purpose than the root trap, but sure doesn't sound appealing. A root trap, i guarentee i'll go out and mess around for a while just having fun with it, trying new tricks... a cure aura, pop it once per named and forget about it. No fun there.

Practical uses outweigh stuff thats mostly fun or situtational, but.. fun trumps all too.

Tenielle
02-17-2006, 03:28 PM
Being a direct group heal rather than a HoT it you won't be able to MGB it.

/shrug, you could in the beta, which is why I asked

Beatslayer
02-17-2006, 03:28 PM
LOL, damn i type so slow or i would have just made the 'fortune teller of the year award" !! hahah

Kaidman
02-17-2006, 03:41 PM
I'm outraged. I was promised a group HoT and it was changed to a direct group heal. I quit EQ.

Kzar
02-17-2006, 03:57 PM
Damn I tried to keep a positive outlook, i really did..

The new spells are .... craptastic!

Barkspur - as useless as i thought it would be, yay us. The only benefit is where a mob is fr/cr, even then its marginal at best. Since its a buff slot, only 1 druid can have it on a tank, so it doesn't scale. It uses a spell slot, which I am running out of, and nothing this spell does provides enough benefit to keep it memed. At least with a nuke, i get the chance of a gom proc, and focus effects work on it. This spell, lasts 8 hits for a few seconds, and nothing we can do will make it better, it doesn't scale at all.

Now to the "its unresistable no aggro damage", to this I say, if you are actually pulling aggro then you need to buy some aa's or get that worthless pos called an epic. As for unresistable, hell with the cr debuff changed, i am able to land ice nukes on the msha's now. Now that we got working debuffs, there are very few mobs that we can't nuke. Crappy spell.

Moonshadow - I was all pumped up when i heard we were getting a group heal, man i was pumping. Constantly going oom keeping the group up from the ae's was frustrating. Then i saw the spell, and laughed my ass off. So let me get this straight its a 18s recast for a max non-crit 2k group heal, with a 18s recast. So with a group of 10k hp toons, it would take me about 2 mins and 6600 mana to heal them. WTF is up with that, there are pop mobs that ae more damage then that. On the bright side, we might be able to keep a group up on 3 yr content. Let me guess, shammy's have a hot, 24s, with buffs/aa that can last 54s on theirs? God we are becoming a joke already. Time for a new druid motto, "DRUIDS! we heal like pally's and DPS like clerics!" Lol, even the level 64 cleric spell "word of redemption" heals 2500 for 1100 mana, and it cures 14 dis, 14 poison, 7 curse counters, with a 6 sec recast. Lets go back even further, level 57 cleric spell, "word of restoration" 1818 group heal, 898mana, cures 9 dis/poison. Nope, thats still al lot better then ours.. Lets go back even further.... level 52 Cleric spell "Word of Vigor", 1273 group heal for 651mana 6s recast.

Ok to recap, our new uber 70 group heal! is worse then the level 52 cleric group heal (250hp less, 1/2 the mana, 1/4 the recast). A level 70 druid with a high level of gear/aa (i assume its gonna be needed to do the missions in the first place) can't keep up the group as well as a 52 bazaar geared cleric (can be bazaar geared, because they only need 1/2 the druids mana pool)

Ae pet - sucks so bad, not even gonna look up the name. This is where i they mixxed up pally and druid. A 5% bonus to heals would be a nice druid pet, but noooo we get a crappy regen + cure.

Overall very craptastic spells.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 04:16 PM
Damn I tried to keep a positive outlook, i really did..

The new spells are .... craptastic!
You Failed.


Now to the "its unresistable no aggro damage", to this I say, if you are actually pulling aggro then you need to buy some aa's or get that worthless pos called an epic. As for unresistable, hell with the cr debuff changed, i am able to land ice nukes on the msha's now. Now that we got working debuffs, there are very few mobs that we can't nuke. Crappy spell.
Your missing the positve points. It doesn't scale between druids, yes that does suck.

It's cast time is 3.0 and subject to spell haste, should take less appox 2 seconds to cast, this makes it amoung the fastest damage we're able to generate, You are not required to retarget from the MA, and the damage can not be resisted. The spell would do well against mobs such as the Ingenuity Boss, as a good example.


Moonshadow - I was all pumped up when i heard we were getting a group heal, man i was pumping. Constantly going oom keeping the group up from the ae's was frustrating. Then i saw the spell, and laughed my ass off. So let me get this straight its a 18s recast for a max non-crit 2k group heal, with a 18s recast. So with a group of 10k hp toons, it would take me about 2 mins and 6600 mana to heal them. WTF is up with that, there are pop mobs that ae more damage then that. On the bright side, we might be able to keep a group up on 3 yr content.
Considering the spell is honestly not that bad at all in practice - esp so if you are fimilar with Paladin Group heals, I am unsure what your primary compliant is.

The Spell Can be focused, Mana Pres works on it, Spell haste works on it, Adept works on it, and So does Gift. most druids who obtain the spell will have some, or all of those abilities.


Let me guess, shammy's have a hot, 24s, with buffs/aa that can last 54s on theirs? God we are becoming a joke already.
I would assume SCRM and Healing Boon works on the Shaman Group HoT. The primary issue with HoT is if you where to recast it, the healing per second doesn't increase because all it does is reset the timer.

We could cure the group 3 times or so in the amount of time it takes the HoT to run full length once. We would heal more then they would quicker, yet use more mana doing so. We retain the edge in healing damage quickly.


Ok to recap, our new uber 70 group heal! is worse then the level 52 cleric group heal (250hp less, 1/2 the mana, 1/4 the recast). A level 70 druid with a high level of gear/aa (i assume its gonna be needed to do the missions in the first place) can't keep up the group as well as a 52 bazaar geared cleric (can be bazaar geared, because they only need 1/2 the druids mana pool)
Clerics also are specialized in group healing. Hence why they get better mana ratios and extra effects on theirs. Our Moonshadow Spell was mroe in line with Paladin heals, and balanced as such.


Ae pet - sucks so bad, not even gonna look up the name. This is where i they mixxed up pally and druid. A 5% bonus to heals would be a nice druid pet, but noooo we get a crappy regen + cure.
I disagree. The Healing Focus appears on the Paladin Epic, it was just expanded to be a minor heal increase with their new Aura.

Our Aura - by comparison combines and increases our abiltiy to regen damage as well as cure the group at the same time, an abilitiy we lacked until now.

-Fenier

Yrys
02-17-2006, 04:53 PM
Actually the PoR spells look nice to me. Group heal is great, and I used Wrath of the Wild quite a bit, so the DS/nuke type thing seems handy too (though you apparently can't precast it like you could WoTW?).

Kzar
02-17-2006, 05:00 PM
It's cast time is 3.0 and subject to spell haste, should take less appox 2 seconds to cast, this makes it amoung the fastest damage we're able to generate, You are not required to retarget from the MA, and the damage can not be resisted. The spell would do well against mobs such as the Ingenuity Boss, as a good example.

I guess its can be good, when you have your target on 1 tank and are to lazy to switch to mob, cast a nuke, target tank again. Ok thats 1 situation. Its mediocre damage, can't proc gom, and is less effecient then are later nukes. If timing is an issue, switch to a magic dot, they don't have a large cast time, rarely resist and do the damage more effeciently. With aa's and focuses they do even more damage, which something this spell will never do. Its capped like most of our spells, other classes can improve their spells and make them better, yet we seem to be a capped class balanced at the whims of clerics, pallys and shammies.

Considering the spell is honestly not that bad at all in practice - esp so if you are fimilar with Paladin Group heals, I am unsure what your primary compliant is.

Nice to have our heals balanced against a melee class.

The Spell Can be focused, Mana Pres works on it, Spell haste works on it, Adept works on it, and So does Gift. most druids who obtain the spell will have some, or all of those abilities.

At it still sucks, even factoring all that in. 1500 focused with max aa/focuses is almost 2k. 2k every 24s, 83.333 hps.. we can keep a group healed for mobs that ae 500 every 6s secs. That ranks somewhere in the pop expansion.

Our Aura - by comparison combines and increases our abiltiy to regen damage as well as cure the group at the same time, an abilitiy we lacked until now.

Count me in a 50hp regen vs a 2k hitter isn't that great crowd. Considering most ae's are rapid fire (ie fast recast) they are very situations were this might be benecial. Maybe it will work with the AM dt ae, or some specific fights but blah....

Was hoping for at least 1 decent spell, and it looks like I won't. Fen, you seem to defend these steaming piles of crapaticular spells, did you have input r something? Is it a case of defending your own creation vs analysis?

If so, let me give you a couple suggestions for next time..

Upgraded magic dot
root that actually lands/takes hold for >15s without an inane recast
combination - unresistable, fr/cr/attack debuff
lower version of reptile, 300hp
indoor foe without the lev, +eb
canni or something to help mana/medding
fr or mr based rain

Fenier
02-17-2006, 05:09 PM
Was hoping for at least 1 decent spell, and it looks like I won't. Fen, you seem to defend these steaming piles of crapaticular spells, did you have input r something? Is it a case of defending your own creation vs analysis?

If so, let me give you a couple suggestions for next time..

Upgraded magic dot
root that actually lands/takes hold for >15s without an inane recast
combination - unresistable, fr/cr/attack debuff
lower version of reptile, 300hp
indoor foe without the lev, +eb
canni or something to help mana/medding
fr or mr based rain

Actually, I gave feedback on Barkspur only, and I didn't want the mitigation portion removed, yet it was - I was overuled. That withstanding, I still see potional in the new verison, but I also enjoy Wrath of the Wild.

I think the biggest differance in Barkspur is the sheer amount of damage it does quickly. Vengance runs what, 30 seconds? A mob will get 8 hits in in less then 2 ticks. This makes Barkspur the quickest amount of damage we can deal, and its unresistable.

Magic DoTs, and New Debuffs where suggested. I personally suggested new debuffs as a option to Barkspur when the orginal verison failed. Rytan wanted to keep it a DS tho and I think the current verison is workable if you do not limit your thinking.

As for a new root - Rangers got a verison of Spore Spiral, with the same 15 second recast timer due to the low resist rate. I would not count on ours going anywhere any time soon.

-Fenier

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
02-17-2006, 05:16 PM
Aura's have their own window like songs. So you have Nature's Boon in the song window, and Aura of Life in the aura window.
Aura buff icons appears in two windows actually. The aura effect buff appears in the song/short buff window. Everyone in the group in range of the caster (including the caster) will have that aura buff in their song window. While it can be clicked off in the song window, it will reappear on the next tick. So, you would see both Nature's Boon and Aura of Life in the song window.

In addition, the aura caster will also have an aura buff in an aura window. The buff in this window can be clicked off by the aura caster to stop the aura.


What is the limit of buffs in the song/short buff window? Did anyone notice whether it's been increased for Prophecy of Ro?

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
02-17-2006, 06:15 PM
This thread was started by a dev wanting to hear feedback BTW. Not by Fenier. I am aswering to that Dev with my impressions. No offense to any.
Oh lord. I never even noticed it was Absor who started this topic.

Moonshadow

While a 1500 HP heal doesn't sound like much, I am thrilled to finally have a group heal. I am often the only healer in my raid groups. They usually steal my pally partner to heal his own group. We actually have more druids than clerics in the first place, so it's rare for most groups to have both a cleric and a druid healer.

In situations where we are all being hit with AoEs, I still lose half my group more often than not. There just isn't enough time to cast a single target heal on everyone in the group. Moonshadow should buy some time so MGB HoTs can get people back to a safe level, or we can single target heal those who most need a heal.

The only problem I see is figuring out what spell to drop to mem Moonshadow :P

Barkspur

I tried Barkspur Wednesday. I'd rather have a lower damage DS that lasts a minute. I just don't have time to be casting a spell every 18 seconds. Not when I'm healing, snaring, DoTing (and boxing an enchanter.) Even without boxing an enchanter, I'm not sure I'd find a lot of value in a spell I have to cast every 18 seconds.

Aura of Life/Aura of Grove

I don't know if Aura of Life/Grove will prove to be all that useful outside of a disease based AoE raid situation. Still, I'd rather have the regen than yet another dubious snare/root. The short distance for auras may be problematic though. The melee group members are often not near me on raids, so they will not be in range of the aura.

For now, I will most likely use it in a group instead of Blessing of Oak. Even in a group I sometimes am running short of buff slots. (I really do need to get Mystical Attuning, but my first priority was healing AAs) Aura of Life will free up a buff slot which is always nice, especially on raids. On raids, regens are the first thing everyone drops, so at least with Aura of Life, I'll still be able to regen my group (or those near me anyway).

I really like that aura buffs are not in the main buff window, it's possible players will want Aura of Life or not ask us to drop it. Depends whether using it blocks more important buffs from the short buff window.



I'd have preferred that auras be a group/raid effect rather than only a group effect. I'm rarely grouped with an enchanter on raids, so will seldom get the benefit from Illusionists Aura where that extra mana regen is most needed. Worse, since they often move my pally partner into another group, I won't get the benefits of his healing aura :(

All in all, I am happy with the spells. Hopefully, it won't take me six months to get my first Prophecy of Ro spell (as it has with Darkhollow spells)

Kzar
02-17-2006, 08:42 PM
Wow, totally didn't notice the thread was created by Absor.

Getting back to barkspur...

8 X 210, for 300 mana... I just can't get past how horrible ineffecient it is. At least with solstice strike we can increase the damage/crit rate to do more damage. This spell is hard capped so bad, it takes away just about anything beneficial about it.

8 hits - well ok, need someway to limit the damage, i mean it would be a crime if we approaced 50% of a necro dps. 8 hits, no way to increase it, so while any class can get a new focus effect we are stuck at 8 X 210.

18-sec duration... well ok boss mobs hit a lot and fast, so np. Lower content, even pop, its not uncommon for a mob not to hit a decently geared player 8 times. Hell a fully slowable mob, probably won't get the 8 hits.

12-s recast. In the situations were this would be ideal, ie fast constistantly hitting mobs. Ie mobs that just wail on the tank where you could chain cast this spell for fast damage, you are limited to 8X210 in 12s+cast time seconds. Hell remove the recast and let us chain it, then we have a nice source of fast damage. The only situation is where you can change target from the mt, or the mob is totally CR/FR

Moonshadow - again glad we finally got a group heal, but 1500, is low. I would rather have the 52 cleric spell. 1500-2000 is nothing during raids, its like 1 hit from yard trash. I really don't see how we can keep a group up with it. As a note, if we are a priest/healer class, our heals should never ever never never never ^ 1000, be balances against a melee classes heal power. They should be balanced by ours. Pallys can out tank, out buff, out dps (on undead), stun, rez, and on par with our healing. If anything they have too much healing power.

Useless Pet - still useless, hell i keep forgetting to use nature's boon, because its not noticeable. I only see 1-2 encounters that its a benefit, even then a shammy with group cure makes this worthless. Change it to give a 10% spell damage buff, or 10% heal increase then it would be nice. Or something that would make we want to cast it. Hell, if they are dead set about giving us a worthless aura, make it do something fun, like "randomly turns people into bears". That would be used more then that worthless spell slot. Hell even a ds + regen would do something. 25pt ds + 75hp regen, would make it useable in xp groups.

As for a new root - Rangers got a verison of Spore Spiral, with the same 15 second recast timer due to the low resist rate.

Anyone else getting pissed that melee/hybrids are getting the same/better abilities then there parent classes. If you gonna keep blurring the lines, gimme archery so i can do some manaless dps. After all druids hunt too, hunt and forage.. there's your lore.

Oh fen, as for the shammy hot, sure we can blast heal more then they group hot. Druids have always suffered from lack of efficiency and the trend continues, they 54 sec group hot makes ours look like a joke. Combine that with their epic and whatnot, we are falling further and further behind.

Nimchip
02-17-2006, 08:53 PM
Basically the story of spore spiral repeats itself =( Aoe cone root ..
now single target but keeping the crap range, crap cast time and crap recast timer... bah

ae cone root... yep sounded nice...

add the dot component that it had

equals a *SMURF*ing useless spell. Yea let's root a mob and get summoned! Woooohoooo!!! Not to mention the range sucked big time.

The idea behind the current Spore Spiral - and I shouldn't even be saying this - was to get a root that could not get resisted as easily and that could keep the mob rooted for a specific amount of time, a "timed" root if you will. A sort of pseudo-mez.

Well that didn't happen like it was planned.

Fenier
02-17-2006, 09:04 PM
8 X 210, for 300 mana... I just can't get past how horrible ineffecient it is. At least with solstice strike we can increase the damage/crit rate to do more damage. This spell is hard capped so bad, it takes away just about anything beneficial about it.

Anicent Chaos Frost, is 1450 for 290 mana. Its effecinacy is 5.0
Barkspur is 1680 for 300, its 5.6

Its actually more mana effective then any nuke we get unless the nuke is modified. The Damage, unlike the nukes - can not be resisted, not ever. it will always Land for full damage.


18-sec duration... well ok boss mobs hit a lot and fast, so np. Lower content, even pop, its not uncommon for a mob not to hit a decently geared player 8 times. Hell a fully slowable mob, probably won't get the 8 hits.

I am not sure I would agree with this. I don't tank ofen but I am pretty sure a typical DoD mission mob hits the tank 8 times pretty quickly, esp before slow lands. It is also important to note most mobs have not been fully slowable since Luclin and partial is typical.


Moonshadow - again glad we finally got a group heal, but 1500, is low. I would rather have the 52 cleric spell. 1500-2000 is nothing during raids, its like 1 hit from yard trash.

Based on the raw numbers of the spell I feel it was designed to let us heal AE damage, or in situations where the group has each tkane slight amounts of damage, rather then casting SI on 6 differant players. I do not believe was designed as a primary healing method, esp verus raid mob melee.


Anyone else getting pissed that melee/hybrids are getting the same/better abilities then there parent classes. If you gonna keep blurring the lines, gimme archery so i can do some manaless dps. After all druids hunt too, hunt and forage.. there's your lore.

The Ranger verison is a limited verison of Spore Spiral, same recast, but the resist check is (I believe) neg 25, not negative 50. It is not better then Spore Spiral.

Oh fen, as for the shammy hot, sure we can blast heal more then they group hot. Druids have always suffered from lack of efficiency and the trend continues, they 54 sec group hot makes ours look like a joke. Combine that with their epic and whatnot, we are falling further and further behind.

I disagree here. I am not sure if this value has been changed. Currently the information I have places the Shaman HoT at 630 per tick. You can simply not speed that rate up. Aside from critcals thats as much healing as they can do Spell Wise (excluding 2.0 and AA, whcih is once every 15).

Moonshadow can heal 3 times in the amount of time it takes Ghost to run once. If there is more then one high powered AE Ghost will have a hard time keeping up, but it will assist in offsetting that damage. Moonshadow, due to the ability to heal more often may be able to keep up in those conditions.

-Fenier

Hakeashar
02-18-2006, 03:24 AM
Iíd like to say I like Barkspur better than the other 2, but thatís not to say I donít like the others (since Iím unable to check them out, they sound good though).

Iím still rather amazed how folks think Ďchain castingí only requires them to do nothing but. Solo mindset is not the way raiding druids (should) think.

In our raids, Iíve tried working an epic line and a reptile line, so that no one is locked down, basically because of the recast timers and because weíre needed to be doing both debuffs and heals and whatever else at the same time.

This is something Clerics started using *way* back when and itís still the mainstay of raiding (to my level of it anyway). Iím not quite sure why itís such anathema to think this way on raids for druids, itís just the way it seems to me, reading here.

Moonshadow:
Level 70 Cast Time 4.5
Mana Cost 1100 Recast Delay: 18 seconds

1500 Point Direct Group Heal

Mana Pres, Adept and Gift do work on this.

From an outside view of Moonshadow, Iíd like to see its base heal lifted to 1750, base 1500 being a bit low imo. Natureís Touch was 10 levels ago and has a base heal of 1494 for 457 mana and 2.25 recasting time.

As a note, if we are a priest/healer class, our heals should never ever never never never ^ 1000, be balances against a melee classes heal power.

I agree here. SoE has thrust 2<SUP>nd</SUP> best healer status on us to try to increase our raid desirability. I can say Iím thankful for such an important role, but with our single heals being 2<SUP>nd</SUP> in a race with Rangers for efficiency and Paladins getting group heals *long ago* and our efficiency doesnít approach theirs either--now that weíre getting a group heal, Iím beginning to think our primary raid role (healing) to be secondary to more than just the other primary healing classí.

We donít encroach on Paladinsí tanking/offtanking and undead dps raid abilities (what I see as their primary raid role), nor Rangersí dps/offtanking abilities (what I see as their primary raid role); why should their abilities encroach on our primary raid role?

~TaríKaiden of Leviathan

sliggoth
02-18-2006, 03:30 AM
The new aura and spells sound good overall, a snare trap would have been just as useful in different ways but if it was not working then this other ability will also be very useful as well. So we still gain a nice helpful ability. The aura sounds like it will be more useful in raid situations but still a handy tool.

Barkspur will be very useful for some fights, less for others...sounds like another useful option for us tho. Flexibilty is always good and in some places this will be a very useful spell. Instead of just another generic nuke we get an upgrade to an area that hasnt been touched for a long time.

The one place where we take a serious hit is the group heal tho.


We finally finally finally get group healing and what happens? Our heal is marginally better then the pally group heal...but seriously behind the cleric group heal.

We are one of the three priest classes, our spells need to be considered in relation to cleric and shammy spells. The fact that about 10 percent better than the pally spell but 45 percent worse than the cleric spell is very disturbing.

After all of this time we finally get a group heal and it just reinforces the idea that we arent 3/4ths of the healers clerics are...we arent even 2/3rds of the healers. We are a little better than half? The slow recast timer is just the finishing touch.

A group heal that is barely better than the group heal for a tank/ hybrid class.

Its going to be hard to justify using up a spell gem for this one except for special fights. It could have been really great to finally get a group heal if it wasnt so limited. Yes, its going to be useful in some fights. Lack of ANY group healing has been such a major druid problem for so long that we are going to use this one.

Just disappointing that a long standing want/ need gets such a weak answer I guess.


Sliggoth, druid/ tradeskiller of 7th Hammer

PS You did want our impressions, heh.

Silxie
02-18-2006, 04:31 AM
I was in BETA, and posted with my negative feedback about getting yet another root/snare. I was delighted when I checked back next and discovered that not only was the dysfunctional root spell ixnayed, but that it has been replaced by something that addressed needs that I have seen stated on these forums many times.

I am actually very happy with these spells. I would suggest that those people who are uncertain give them a try first. I remember when reptile came out I was less than thrilled, but now I am a convert. The same might happen with Aura, and the other spells.

Nadjaiskeniskie
02-18-2006, 06:14 AM
Moonshadow sounds cool :texla:. Having two worthless spells in the expansion to go with it just means that i can concentrate on doing other things (apart from getting those spells).

Kinda like DoD in a way - It allowed me to opt out an entire set of spell missions so as to not waste my time.

I don't consider the druids spells in PoR to be a reason to buy the expansion, unlike the tradeskill stuff which is uber snappy* (with an echo).

- N.

* in a good way; pass the laudanum - it's get on the dance floor and. well, dance :-)

Fenier
02-18-2006, 08:03 AM
Personally, I like the current spells.

If anything I would lower the recast on Barkspur to 8 seconds. I would reduce Moonshadow to 12 seconds. But really, those are not major changes in the spells dynamic.

I think a common perception is spells need to be useful ALL the time, this isn't true. Clearly Barkspur and Moonshadow are fairly specialized spells, just like Reptile and Spore Spiral where in Depths.

In reguards to Moonshadow..

The comparison to Nature's Touch in the above post is drastically off.

Nature's Touch heals 1491 for 457 mana against one target.

Thus, it heals 3.26 hitpoints per point of mana spent.

Cast time is 3.75, so it heals 397.6 Hitpoints per second.

Compared to Moonshadow:

Moonshadow heals 9000 Hitpoints (1500 on each fo 6 people), for 1100 mana.

Thus it heals 8.18 Hitpoints per point of mana spent.

Cast Time is 4.5 so it heals 2000 Hitpoints per second.

The point I am attempting to make here - is you can not compare a Direct Heal to a Group Heal.

Rytan was attempting to balance Moonshadow inbetween Paladins and Clerics. It should be noted that I believe he wanted us to be able to heal 6 targets, but not anywhere near as well as a cleric, hence why the Shaman Group heal also lacks secondary effects.

In perticular we took a heavy beating form Paladins. Our group heal is infact better then theirs, but we are not a class which has traditonally had group heals, so ours is bound to be skewed as we're getting an ability outside of our typical function.

In Reguards to Range. Paladins can heal at 100 Range, Clerics can heal with Word of Vivacation at 70 Range. We fall inbetween these two numbers with a AE Heal Range of 75.

Since our Group Heal is exactly a direct heal we should be comparing to only groups heals which are direct in nature, not the clerical combonation Group Heals/Cures.

That said, repeated here for referance:

Moonshadow
HP Healed: 9000
Mana Cost: 1100
Recast: 18 seconds
Range: 75
Ratio: 8.18
HPS: 2000

Wave of Piety (Level 70 Paladin AE Heal)
HP Healed: 7896
Mana Cost: 1048
Recast: 30 Seconds
Range: 100
Ratio: 7.53
HPS: 2632

Word of Vigor (Level 52 Group Heal)
HP Healed: 7638
Mana Cost: 651
Recast: 2.5 Seconds
Range: 60
Ratio: 11.7
HPS: 1697

What we see here is Druids actually beat Clerics in terms of Direct Healing as far as AE Range and Hitpoints Healed per second go. Clerics, being clerics, should have a better mana ratio then we do, and we see this is infact true. Our Heal however heals for more then the equivlant Cleric heal.

When Compared to the Paladin Wave at level 70, we see we have a lower range and hitpoints per second (namly because Hybrid spells are faster to cast), and we exceed Paladins in mana ratio and total hitpoints healed.

This effectivly makes Druids Middle of the Road between the two, We actually exceed both classes in terms of raw hitpoints healed.

It is important to note the cleric numbers work like this because I am comparison Direct Heals only. Higher Level Cleric Group heals still suffer the AE Range being lower then ours and will still have us beat healing wise as their heals gain the ability to cure at the same time.

It is also important to note that even with these limitations Druids and Clerics remain evenly paced as far as Cast time goes. Both classes have a cast time of 4.5 on their highest respective heals.

All in all? The Recast is a bit high, but not drastically so. The spell is totally workable, esp given that this is something which has until this point fallen outside of our class, so we are not going be as effective at it as either Paladins or Clerics, and we shoudn't be.

Really, I would try the spell and give it a chance the spell is not as bad as it is being made out to be.

-Fenier

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
02-18-2006, 09:42 AM
Fenier, comparing our level 70 group heal to a level 52 cleric group heal makes no sense whatsoever. I do understand you are comparing like to like, and it would make sense if clerics use Word of Vigor for healing groups instead of Word of Vivication. But I really doubt they think ... oh! I have no need to cure disease, poison, or curse, so let me just mem Word of Vigor.

I don't raid with level 52 clerics, nor do I compete for a healing/group role with level 52 clerics.

I'm still thrilled to have group heal, but don't try to make it look like we are better at healing a group than clerics. Moonshadow should be a level 60 spell, not a level 70 spell.

I'm sorry paladins feel threatened that a healing priest finally has a group heal. Fact is, there is need for both paladin and druid group heals. (and while we may out dps a paladin, there's no way a druid is going to out tank a paladin)

Discanthir
02-18-2006, 11:49 AM
Um, just wanted to point out that you are comparing us beating a *level 52* cleric spell with a *level 70* druid spell. I might be reading what you mean incorrectly, though.


When I was a tiny druid one of the first things I learned is that we are supposed to be the second best healers in the game, clerics being the only better. With the different upgrades that have been coming out for other classes, imo we are getting closer to going down the ladder. I am very happy we are finally getting a group heal, but after asking and waiting, waiting, and more waiting for one, as well as looking at clerics, pallys, and to a point shammys abilities, Moonshadow almost feels like a slap in the face.
<O:p</O:p

With it's current restrictions we should have Moonshadow at level 60, not 70. 1500 hp healed every 18 seconds? Maybe this heal will keep your group alive for the first couple aoe hits or tics of an aoe dot. Until I try it myself I am extremely doubtful it will do much more. For those of you who say we also have SotW to add in remember the timer on it. I know this won't be the case in all situations. Still, we should be an alternative to having a cleric, not an augment to keep the group alive a little longer before one can come to the rescue.
<O:p</O:p

Another thing that really gets under my skin is the 1100 mana cost for only 1500 hp healed per person. I can see a 2000 or maybe a 1750 hp heal costing that much, but the times when I can foresee sacrificing a spell slot for this will be for tough or raid level mobs. I am going to get oom very quickly healing a group that is being pummeled by or more than 1500 damage every 18 seconds over the duration of time it takes to kill most of these mobs. Face it, a lot of the encounters out there will do much faster and greater damage. I am tired and can’t think of good examples, but I mean even the dragon for the new key to VP, Suled Dar, has a 2000 hp ae (that can theoretically be cast every 24 seconds), and that doesn't include the rest of his dps. He takes about 3-6 minutes to kill from what I have seen. For every three casts of his aoe, we will need 4 casts of Moonshadow to counteract, both adjusting hitpoints by 6000. Assuming he casts this about 6 times during the fight, which is being generous in the healer's favor, that is 8800 mana we need to heal the damage. I am going to say we want to raise hp by at least what the aoe does because I am not including the rest of the heals we will have to do (his rampages, DoT, and if we are on tank healing duty). Also take into account his mana eating dot, which more mobs have than just him. This spell will help, but I doubt it will be effective in situations like this, especially on a lot harder and faster hitting aoes. If a druid does manage to keep mana up, that 18 second timer is still going to be a real b**ch to overcome.
<O:p</O:p

Looking at this spell vs clerics’ or pallys’ abilities makes me a little depressed. We are a priest class, we are supposed to be the second best healers in the game, and our spells should be on par with that, not so far behind a cleric's or so close to a melee class. Reduce the recast time by *at least* a tic, and raise the amount healed by *at least* 250 if the mana cost is going to stay at 1100 and I would be a lot happier with this spell. I know I am complaining a lot, but over time it seems like druids are falling further and further behind the upgrades other classes are getting.
<O:p</O:p

One more thing I need to vent about is Barkspur, Aura, and their uses. I am in a family guild, and while we do raid about once a week, I spend far more time running around with a close group of friends, and a lot of time soloing. There are few mobs I am going to run into that will hit me or my tank 8 times in 18 seconds. If it is just me any mob that hits me 8 times in 18 seconds will be weak enough that Barkspur is overkill. I don’t have all my avoidance AAs, and am not even close to being a melee druid. In group situations there are very few times I do not have a slower. The unresistable damage makes up for the cap I think, but imo the 8 damage divider should be lowered, or even better, the 3 tics should be extended. I love Wrath of the Wild. I always have it on me, the tank, or my pet before battles with a non summoning mob, and I usually cast it long enough before battle that the timer is up by the time the mob gets hit by the first one. I think Barkspur could be a great spell if only it was adjusted a little, otherwise only useful for bosses or raids and not worth a spell slot.
<O:p</O:p

I am also one of the ones who by far think a snare trap would be much more useful than Aura, if it worked. If they keep Aura I hope they don’t nerf it, though. I already have regen, I already have an AoE regen (Boon AA), and I already have a way to cure disease. Putting them in one spell just makes what I already have of less use. I could think of many more ways I could use Living Vine (been fantasying about it), and limited again to grouping in tougher areas or raids for Aura. I can see a lot of risks with the snare trap, but that is where the fun and excitement come in. I do not think that all our new spells should be able to be used in every context, but from my side of things all can only be fully used in one. Raiding or bosses.
<O:p</O:p

I love to solo sometimes. I am not an anti social player, and everyone who knows me in the game knows that I help out everyone else before my goals and I expect my friends to do the same, but I really do like the times when I can solo. It is a very important ability to me, and one of the main reasons I wanted to be a druid. Another reason soloing is important to me is that I work 2nd or 3rd shift. A lot of the time when I play is when most of the server is deserted, and there is little opportunity to group (it really sucks trying to get mind candy then, btw). I have been the only one in NC, WoS, and MPG on multiple occasions when these are the most popular places, and this is after the server merge. I would really appreciate it if SOE would balance our spells out to reflect our class, not try to push us more and more into one camp, or lower our abilities comparatively.
<O:p</O:p

Well, that finishes off this leaf lover’s Book of Opinions. Maybe I’ll change them when I actually have these spells. Good hunting, druids.

Discanthir
02-18-2006, 11:52 AM
Ha, not sure how that post got in before I replied.... ignore the repeats.

Naeyene
02-18-2006, 12:36 PM
There are few mobs I am going to run into that will hit me or my tank 8 times in 18 seconds. If it is just me any mob that hits me 8 times in 18 seconds will be weak enough that Barkspur is overkill.
Even a Walls of Slaughter trash mob would hit you or your tank more than 8 times in 18 seconds. Try MPG, RCoD, Illislan, Stoneroot... I guarentee any of those mobs would hit you 8 or more times in 18 seconds. /boggle

Face it, a lot of the encounters out there will do much faster and greater damage. I am tired and can’t think of good examples, but I mean even the dragon for the new key to VP, Suled Dar, has a 2000 hp ae (that can theoretically be cast every 24 seconds), and that doesn't include the rest of his dps.

I, as a paladin, with my lesser group heal am able to keep my group alive against Suled Dar, the few times we have killed him. Using Wave of Trushar... (1: Increase Hitpoints by 1143). Healing focus and AA make a huge difference.

Sure, 1100 mana seems like alot to swallow, but your healing 6 people for that. With max healing AA and a decent heal focus item, you will be healing each person for around 2k. It is certainly not as awful as you all are making it out to be.

Fenier
02-18-2006, 12:47 PM
Um, just wanted to point out that you are comparing us beating a *level 52* cleric spell with a *level 70* druid spell. I might be reading what you mean incorrectly, though.

No, your correct I did so compare it to a level 52 Clerical Group Heal and this is my reasoning why.

1: Over level 52 Clerical Group Heals gain additional abilities that Moonshadow Lacks. This makes any comparison to them frankly, stupid.
2: Historically, and I am using Tunare's Renewal as my basis - We have gained powers not typically within our class at least 19 levels later.

Point in Case:

Complete Heal: Level 39
Tunare's Renewal: Level 58

Differance in Levels: 19

The Mana Ratio is also way off what a cleric 20 levels lower would have:

Complete Heal: 18.75
Tunare's Renewal: 7.31

Even Karana's Rewnal, which is 28 levels differance from Complete Heal is only 7.8

Following that line of logic, Moonshadow is looking pretty good in terms of Mana Ratio used.

That said, lets look at the Healing:

Complete Heal lands for 7500
Tunare's Lands for 2925 - Not even Half of Complete heal
Differance: 4575
Even against KR the Differance is: 2820

Following this line of Logic, we can look at Word of Vigor to see roughly where Moonshadow should be, esp because it is the last direct only heal.

Even if we where to look at Word of Vivification we see the following:
Word of Viv heals for: 3427
Moonshadow Heals for: 1500
Differance of 1927

The same general principles hold true here, where Moonshadow is not even half of the highest cleric spell.

That said, I don't think we even need Moonshadow, but since we're getting it, I feel it is balance where it should be based on past balancing points against clerical spells when we gain an ability we did not have prior.


Moonshadow almost feels like a slap in the face.

I find it funny how when we gain an ability that we arguably need, and it is balance pretty much the way it should have been balance in the first place, it is a slap in the face, considering in EITHER event, we gain an ability we did not have prior.


I am going to get oom very quickly healing a group that is being pummeled by or more than 1500 damage every 18 seconds over the duration of time it takes to kill most of these mobs.

Adept and Gift do work on the spell, and it can be focused. If you are raiding content which can exceed 1500 per AE you are apt to have ranks in those skills so the spell scales somewhat. Its not a flat 1500 points which can't be adjusted.


Face it, a lot of the encounters out there will do much faster and greater damage. I am tired and canít think of good examples, but I mean even the dragon for the new key to VP, Suled Dar, has a 2000 hp ae (that can theoretically be cast every 24 seconds), and that doesn't include the rest of his dps.

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5680&source=Live
Gaze of Anguish, 4k DD ever 45 seconds

To high end for you?

Here, lets look at Quarm:

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=3768&source=Live

3k AE, every 60 seconds

That said, if your healing an a AE fight, your group is not typically apt to be taking melee damage at the same time. They may - ocassionally, depending on the encounter, but the spell was not designed for being the end all method of healing an entire group.

This spell will help, but I doubt it will be effective in situations like this, especially on a lot harder and faster hitting aoes. If a druid does manage to keep mana up, that 18 second timer is still going to be a real b**ch to overcome.

Your example excludes:

Adept
Focus
Gift

You automatically assume all AEs will hit. You also assume that you may have a Rampage tank in your group. Both of these points can be debated.

With Max Adept Moonshadow heals for just under 2k per cast - and that is excluding a healing focus. Given your example, these would make it One Cast of Moonshadow for every 2 or so AEs, as opposed to 4 casts per 3 AEs.


I spend far more time running around with a close group of friends, and a lot of time soloing. There are few mobs I am going to run into that will hit me or my tank 8 times in 18 seconds. The unresistable damage makes up for the cap I think, but imo the 8 damage divider should be lowered, or even better, the 3 tics should be extended.

I disagree. Infact, I disagree to much that here is a parse of a blue con mob from Walls of Slaughter, an area where any level 70 druid should be able to heal.

[Sun Jan 15 15:21:00 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 131 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:01 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 249 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:02 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 579 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:04 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 296 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:04 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 390 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:06 2006] A raging chimera bashes YOU for 116 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:07 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 131 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:08 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 437 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:09 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 579 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:10 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 296 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:13 2006] A raging chimera bashes YOU for 115 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:14 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 249 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:14 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 319 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:15 2006] Your Earring of Unseen Horrors shimmers briefly.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:15 2006] You begin casting Sylvan Infusion.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:16 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 131 points of damage.
[Sun Jan 15 15:21:16 2006] A raging chimera hits YOU for 579 points of damage.

15 Hits in 18 seconds. It should also be noted that the delay on mobs drops drastically the higher the content. While I do not have parses available from any of my DoD missions handy, I assure you they can hit well over 8 times in 18 seconds.


I am also one of the ones who by far think a snare trap would be much more useful than Aura, if it worked. If they keep Aura I hope they donít nerf it, though. I already have regen, I already have an AoE regen (Boon AA), and I already have a way to cure disease. Putting them in one spell just makes what I already have of less use.

Except.. it doesn't.

The cure is passive. If you had to cure something exceptionally strong, you would still use Pure Blood.

Nature's Boon / Boon of the Forest has a 30 minute resuse timer. The Aura is a continous effect for 30 minutes. There is a massive differance there.

-Fenier

Naeyene
02-18-2006, 01:00 PM
*hands Fenier a tissue*

With debates like this... I know he is crying IRL.

Discanthir
02-18-2006, 01:22 PM
Blah, /slaps self. I am sorry about the 8 hits in 18 seconds rant, I reread that after and I was just being very stupid.

As for the almost feels like a slap in the fast comment, I honestly feel that way. I have always thought of druids as a healing class first, the rest of our abilities come after. A 1500 point group heal for 1100 mana and a 3 tic recast delay seems very weak for lvl 70 in my opinion. Especially since I have felt we should have had group heals quite a long time ago. Like I said though, I am happy we finally do get one. Anyway, just my opinions.

Fanra
02-18-2006, 02:05 PM
7) SOE has the power to implement every feature they want, but nerfing is a LOT less complex and requires MUCh less braincells and money then implement things right. I see stupidity ruling in everyday life here in Italy .. i want my virtual life to be a bit better than that =)
I guess you are unfamiliar with the nerfing of wolf form many years ago.

Since Absor seems to be following this thread, I would be interested in his comment about it.

Basically, to sum up for those who don't know, wolf form was made KOS to most NPCs one day out of the blue. We never received an explanation but most 'experts' said that it must have been done to prevent an 'exploit' where in a very few zones a druid could trade or otherwise do stuff in wolf form that they couldn't otherwise.

As an example, I personally used to kill guards in Oggok (the Ogre city), loot their corpses and then when I was full, go in wolf form to the NPC ogre vendor right there and sell him the stuff. I was KOS to the guards in wolf form but not to the merchants.

So, if this was indeed an 'exploit' or other 'problem' that needed to be fixed, instead of fixing the few zones it was a problem with, i.e., making the NPC vendors ignore wolf faction and use your normal faction, Sony nerfed wolf form everywhere. Even in my home city I lose two faction places in wolf form.

Wolf form has needed major fixing for something like over three years now and has been totally ignored. There are many, many problems with it that should be addressed and I've done long detailed breakdowns of exactly what needs to be done both here and in emails to Sony and posts on their board which I will not repeat here unless Absor would actually take my ideas to the developers and they would use them.

So, to sum up here, Sony will always take the easy nerf route to 'fix' something rather than do the work to get it right. So don't be surprised when it happens.

Sildan
02-18-2006, 02:16 PM
I personally can't wait for Moonshadow.
I'm tickled pink that after all these years of asking, Sony has givin us the group heal that we asked for.

I think it's just about right for a druid group heal and In testing in on beta, I was fairly pleased with it. It seems like the majority of the AE damage that I heal of late is from DoT's that provide gradual damage. Yeah I wouldn't mind it being a 12 second recast but I think the 18 will be workable.

Aldier
02-18-2006, 02:16 PM
Moonshadow is not the END all heal spell for druids. It is not designed to be the primary heal spell for us otherwise we would have gotten group heals a long time ago. AE encounters, clerics could just spam group heals every time and waste the excess mana, and not EVERY AE hits every person for the same amount, or they could use group heals when they are needed and use normal patch healing, like what druids are used to, to heal when only 1 or 2 people need it. With AE dots, like Vish, it is a lot easier to heal each person as they need then wait for everyone to get low enough that the group heal becomes an option.

With the snare trap. Yes, we all agree the concept is a good one. A way to set a snare that effectively controls a mob without having to cast a spell on it. Yes it would help if multiple mobs were chasing you and you could snare them all to get away/back to group safer, BUT that is not how the trap worked in PoR Beta. It was not functioning as you all are suggesting that you wanted it to. It did not work with the current game mechanics. The devs ask Beta participants for feedback and the druids in beta said it was not good. The devs asked what would be preferred instead, and the Aura, after several changes, ended up as a regen + (disease?) cure.

Barkspur is imo our weakest spell this expansion and even it has its times when it will be useful. I know that I wanted the melee mitigation portion of the spell more than the ds part but the spell was not working right and I believe it changed 4 times during the course of beta testing. The final version is not as great as the original, but the original version was overpowered.

If you do not like the results of Beta testing, then next expansion, (coming in August right Absor?), join in on the beta testing, sign up and you can give input to the developers on the new aa/spells/whatever about the druid class.

duralupal
02-18-2006, 02:18 PM
There's another thing to remember when trying to compare Moonshadow to pally group healing. And it's a big'en. Specialization. Druids, particularly alt-spec druids of course, will get a nice additional chunk of mana saving knocked off the top of Moonshadow's mana-cost. Pallies don't receive that. Hate to admit that this spell probably suckers me into buying the expansion. We're a cleric-low guild (plenty of 2-box clerics!) so commonly I'm the only healer for my group in a raid. Racing to keep up with single target heals ain't fun.

*being only a somewhat casual raiding druid, /hugs his Kerasha's tunic and 216 spec alt skill*

Edit: Also, seems to me that this gives us a very nice use for silent casting.

Dindail
02-18-2006, 03:20 PM
Clearly there is too much debate here and not enough numbers to back it up.

The following numbers are raid buffed with the following.
-11,000 mana pool
-97 mana/tic (92 mana/tic Paladin)
-40% Spell Haste
-23% Critical Rate (Healing Gift)
-2% Critical Rate (DoN AA)
-28% Healing Increase (Healing Adept)
-60% Healing Increase (Item Focus)
-21% Mana Preservation (Alteration Spec. + Spell Casting Mastery, Priest Only, 0% Paladin)
-20% Mana Preservation (Item Focus)
-10% GoM Proc (Priest Only, 0% Paladin)

MPS = Mana Per Second
HPM = Hitpoints Per Mana
HPS = Hitpoints Per Second


Moonshadow (Druid lvl 70)
-31.84 MPS
-25.8 HPM
-821.65 HPS

Wave of Piety (Paladin lvl 70)
-26.62 MPS
-18.34 HPM
-488.41 HPS

Word of Vivification (Cleric lvl 69)
-165.52 MPS
-46.77 HPM
-7741.87 HPS

Word of Replenishment (Cleric lvl 64)
-151.45 MPS
-39.02 HPM
-5910.96 HPS

Word of Redemption (Cleric lvl 60)
-79.69 MPS
-152.63 HPM
-12163.76 HPS

Single Target Heals.

Ancient Chlorobon (Druid lvl 70)
-99.80 MPS
-13.69 HPM
-1357.77 HPS

Ancient Hallowed Light (Cleric lvl 70)
-103.39 MPS
-16.75 HPM
-1732.79 HPS


Realistically, our new group heal is an improvement, but is very lacking in relation to Cleric group healing. Paladin heals are restricted by AA's that they dont get.

Fenier
02-18-2006, 03:41 PM
Realistically, our new group heal is an improvement, but is very lacking in relation to Cleric group healing. Paladin heals are restricted by AA's that they dont get.

Except your missing the point Moonshadow compares to Cleric Group heals in the same way Our Renewals Compare to Complete Heal.

In niether case was the spell line something we got naturally, it was added to our class at the expense of a worse ratio.

This trend continues here.

Really I am not seeing what the huge issue.

-Fenier

Palarran
02-18-2006, 03:51 PM
The cleric numbers are also misleading in that you're also assuming that a cleric would chain cast spells like Word of Vivification, which is very rarely done. You'd have to be taking an insane amount of damage continuously to justify it, and the cleric's mana wouldn't support it for very long, not to mention the aggro generated!

The MPG Trial of Specialization and Arch Magus Vangl are the two places I use group heals on my cleric most frequently. In both cases I never fire an AE heal more than once every 30 seconds.

Dindail
02-18-2006, 03:52 PM
Good thing I have an entire database of info.

When I post this...please feel sorry for us, and not happy. I would not want to compare these 2 spells ever, but you asked for it.

Complete Heal (Cleric lvl 39)
-25.74 MPS
-37.88 HPM
-975.25 HPS

Karana's Renewal (Druid lvl 64)
-37.87 MPS
-12.63 HPM
-478.55 HPS

First of all, you are comparing 2 spells that are completely broken. There is no reason based on the comparrison of direct healing alone should a Druid fall that far behind a Cleric on single target healing. Now if you made the comparrison between our 2 ancient heals, which I believe is balanced the way the 2 classes healing (Should) be, then your arguements would be reasonable.

Dindail
02-18-2006, 03:55 PM
The cleric numbers are also misleading in that you're also assuming that a cleric would chain cast spells like Word of Vivification, which is very rarely done.
That would not change the Hitpoints Per Mana numbers at all, it would actually make the value of Cleric heals that much better. These are the numbers that mean the most to me.

Fenier
02-18-2006, 04:12 PM
Your missing the point totally.

A very large direct heal was something we didn't have till Tunare's.

TR and its upgrade KR, where directly balanced verus the cleric's largest Direct Heal, which is Complete Heal.

I am not arguing the fact CH is broken, we all know it is. I am saying that the Renewals where directly balanced against it, so it being broken is irrealvant.

I totally believe Moonshadow was balanced in the same fashion.

We have - for the past *7* years been able to heal 6 targets directly. We gain the ability. There is No reason at all to suggest it even be remotly close in ratio to a class which has had the ability for 7 years. None.

Moonshadow does not cure any effects - None.

Moonshadow is - totally and completly a Direct Heal to 6 targets. Comparison to a Combo Spell that Clerics may have is foolish, ESP when it is well know that since we've lacked this ability for 7 years the ratio *should* be worse.

The amount Healed is reasonable. The recast is a tad long, but your not going to be chain casting this spell anyway, so the point is fairly moot except possiably in a very few high end encounters.

Clerics don't even chain cast their AE Heal.

Group Heals are not ment to be primary Healing methods. This is why you never see a cleric using one to keep the group alive in normal exp content. They (like we do!) use Direct Heals because using more mana to heal people who don't need it - is stupid.

That said, I think the rato is fine. I think the amount healed is fine. I understand the balancing points. I understand the fact that they did not HAVE to give us this spell at all. I understand the fact that the spell is balanced in a similar way that our renewals where.

The exceptional negativity on this thread is totally amazing. Quite honestly I am pretty disappointed in the class atm from some of the reactions here.

-Fenier

Dindail
02-18-2006, 04:33 PM
So, you agree that it is acceptable (as the second best healers) to have a 3 fold differance in Large single target heals. With that reasoning we should bow to the gods that our group heal is only half as effective as the Cleric group heal, which includes a cure component making it that much more superior.

You don't find it disturbing that a normal Guild Roster in the high end game has more Clerics than any other class in the game? The numbers I posted above are the very reason that is. It is unacceptable.

We are no longer a DPS class at all, we need either a fix to that or better healing to make up for it, if we are getting better healing, we better get something a bit closer to Cleric healing.

Secondly, Clerics are THE healers of EQ, they are best at every angle of it, and by a very large margin. In the high end game Clerics are used as the main healers for Main Tanks. Druids completely lack the tools to handle that job effectively. Those Clerics are placed in groups (together) healing that Main Tank. As a result the rest of the Priests are stuck healing any other dmg on the raids. Do you really think you are going to have around 10 Clerics on any average raid to handle the Main Tank healing and also the AE healing, and even if you do, that just reinforces the fact that Clerics are much more abundant on Guild rosters.

Palarran
02-18-2006, 04:42 PM
Here's your large single target heal comparison:
Ancient Chlorobon (Druid lvl 70)
-99.80 MPS
-13.69 HPM
-1357.77 HPS

Ancient Hallowed Light (Cleric lvl 70)
-103.39 MPS
-16.75 HPM
-1732.79 HPS

Looks pretty close to me.

(If you're talking about Complete Heal and Karana's Renewal, note that both of those spells heal for less per second than either of the above heals.)

Dindail
02-18-2006, 04:45 PM
Complete Heal (Cleric lvl 39)
-25.74 MPS
-37.88 HPM
-975.25 HPS

Karana's Renewal (Druid lvl 64)
-37.87 MPS
-12.63 HPM
-478.55 HPS

Nope, this is it, in response to Fenier

Palarran
02-18-2006, 04:46 PM
And you're missing the point. Complete Heal and Karana's Renewal are very specialized spells these days; they're not a priest's bread and butter, so to speak.

elty
02-18-2006, 04:47 PM
Moonshadow need to heal at least 60% as much as cleric's, while being at least 80% efficient. then it will be a good heal.

Fenier
02-18-2006, 04:48 PM
So, you agree that it is acceptable (as the second best healers) to have a 3 fold differance in Large single target heals. With that reasoning we should bow to the gods that our group heal is only half as effective as the Cleric group heal, which includes a cure component making it that much more superior.

Considering that we did not as a class have the ability naturally? Not at all.

Our Other Heals (which have direct cleric equiv) scale decently from 1 - 70. Not Perfect, but decently.

Where our ratios differ is when we get weaker verisons of powers not natural to our class. I don't find issue with this as it reduces blurring of classes while still granting us the power to do something we did not do previously.


You don't find it disturbing that a normal Guild Roster in the high end game has more Clerics than any other class in the game? The numbers I posted above are the very reason that is. It is unacceptable.

I find it more disturbing your using a subjective arguement such as class makeup within a guild (which varies drastically) as a reason for a better ratio on the heal.


We are no longer a DPS class at all, we need either a fix to that or better healing to make up for it, if we are getting better healing, we better get something a bit closer to Cleric healing.


This is again subjective compared to what spells your using for comparison. If your comparing verus something like Ether Flame or Dread Pyre the results are going to be vastly skewed.

Moonshadow was a step in making us closer to cleric healing. The Ratio is not as good, but we do gain the ability. I am not sure how the addtion of a group heal is not making us more like clerics.


Secondly, Clerics are THE healers of EQ, they are best at every angle of it, and by a very large margin. In the high end game Clerics are used as the main healers for Main Tanks

True.

Druids completely lack the tools to handle that job effectively.

False. Our tools may not be as good, but they are far from a complete lack.

Those Clerics are placed in groups (together) healing that Main Tank. As a result the rest of the Priests are stuck healing any other dmg on the raids.

Subjective to the Raid target. Nor do all guilds follow this format.

Do you really think you are going to have around 10 Clerics on any average raid to handle the Main Tank healing and also the AE healing

Personally, at most I think you would require a maximum of 9 clerics (1 per group), and that is only in exceptional situations. I feel we, as well as shamans, do a decent job healing in a Raid Format.

To Quailify my statement, I am not Demi-Plane Flagged, but have done Anguish, Vish and several of the Depths Raids. My opinions are based on my (and the other druids performance) during those encounters based on the raid makeup we had available.

-Fenier

Dindail
02-18-2006, 04:50 PM
Palarran, are you saying my Demiplane guild do not use CH much? You are very, very mistaken, and it is used just that much more in exp groups.

You are right I dont use KR, look at the numbers on the Ancient Heal and Those on KR, and you know why.

Palarran
02-18-2006, 04:57 PM
Fine, it might be useful in the Demiplane. My guild is a couple months away from that. I can think of only three encounters where we have more than 4 clerics using cheal: Jelvan, Council of 9, and Lich King.

Nimchip
02-18-2006, 05:31 PM
Fine, it might be useful in the Demiplane. My guild is a couple months away from that. I can think of only three encounters where we have more than 4 clerics using cheal: Jelvan, Council of 9, and Lich King.


Hmmm North Snake in Tacvi rings a bell... plenty of Ikkinz stuff... GSR, lots of GoD stuff. Hmm...

Palarran
02-18-2006, 05:43 PM
We clear Tacvi without a single cheal chain. I don't remember using one for any Ikkinz trials either, or anywhere else in GoD for that matter.

In general we only benefit from the efficiency of complete heals on endurance encounters, ones that last 20 minutes or longer.
(Which reminds me, I suppose I can add the MPG Trial of Endurance to that list...)

Different guilds do things different ways. I suppose we might be in the minority, preferring splash heals over complete heals anytime both are an option.

Dindail
02-18-2006, 06:08 PM
Apples and Oranges. Try to consider what those expansions were geared for, I highly doubt guilds did Tacvi with clerics casting only Group heals and Fast heals at lvl 65.

Also the reason I say Druids are not cut out for Main Tank healing in the high end game is simple. Arbs and Cleric Epic, those are the sole reasons Clerics in my guild atleast are always grouped together with the Main Tank. Zi Thulli hits for somewhere around 7k if I remember right, and FD's tanks every so often. You are constantly trying to save the tanks from sudden death, Druids dont have the tools for that, Clerics however do.

sliggoth
02-18-2006, 06:42 PM
So...Im seeing a lot of discussion that its ok to balance the druid group heal at a fracton of the cleric group heal because the broekn cheals are balanced that way. So we are going to be healing similar to clerics 18 levels lower than us now as a rule of thumb?

And the arguements that our heal is much better than the pally heal dont hold water. The numbers comparing the druid vs pally heal only START looking good for the druid spell when you max all of the foci and aa for the druid.



Im sorry, but I didnt know that our spells were only being balanced for druids with top end foci and maxed aa. If this is a spell aimed for the top end, top equipped druid then fine...it does beat the pally heal. For an average druid, or for those half of the druid population that are below average, we arent seeing those numbers.

Thats the persepective that I wanted to introduce, how close this spell is to a tertiary healer spell for the bulk of the druid population.


Sliggoth, druid/ tradeskiller of 7th hammer



PS and just to open another can of worms, we really have had a limited group/ raid heal over time for years. Sotw is an old old druid ability and even tho its not a spell it is indeed a group heal. And yes I know some people whine about how its more a DS type effect for unresistable damage, but thats not how I use it 99 out of 100 times.

Fenier
02-18-2006, 07:01 PM
So...Im seeing a lot of discussion that its ok to balance the druid group heal at a fracton of the cleric group heal because the broekn cheals are balanced that way. So we are going to be healing similar to clerics 18 levels lower than us now as a rule of thumb?

I am sure you disagree. I do think however in giving our class abilities which we previously lacked totally, that they should nto only be gotten at much later levels, but have worse ratios.

It should be noted that our typical heals (the 3.75 second ones) keep pace with their equivlant cleric heals. And they should, extra abilites which are given to the class and change the game dynamic should not keep anywhere near the same pace.

The Renewal Lines I totally believe where balanced in this fashion, so clearly someone else somewhere must think in at least a similar manner.

We do not have a scaled verison of this heal at all levels, nor do I believe we should. Infact, I don't think we should have it at all, but that is totally another matter.

Since there is clearly prescendant in how the only other spell we got from the clerical line that I am aware of was developed and balanced, and Moonshadow follows that pattern, its balance makes sense.

I have yet to see anyone explain why we should have a close or equal ratio to a spell line we have never had access to ever.

What we are getting is a spell, which is balanced in a similar fashion to a previous spell. This makes sense. They wanted us to have the ability we did not have before - but at the cost of a slightly worse ratio. This also makes sense.

What does not make sense, is the fact people are complaing so much that this heal is balanced the same way as the other heals in reguards to us gaining an ability we did not ever have before.

And the arguements that our heal is much better than the pally heal dont hold water. The numbers comparing the druid vs pally heal only START looking good for the druid spell when you max all of the foci and aa for the druid.

At Base - excluding anything else, We have a better Hp to Mana Ratio then the levle 70 Paladin Heal, the only field they beat us in is Hitpoints Per Second, and that is only because their heal is 3 seconds to our 4.5.

sliggoth
02-18-2006, 07:05 PM
Yes, Im glad that our group heal is i some way better then the pally group heal.


Since we are a priest class it is nice that ours is better then a tertiary heal class in some small way.

Sliggoth

Nimchip
02-18-2006, 07:15 PM
We clear Tacvi without a single cheal chain. I don't remember using one for any Ikkinz trials either, or anywhere else in GoD for that matter.

In general we only benefit from the efficiency of complete heals on endurance encounters, ones that last 20 minutes or longer.
(Which reminds me, I suppose I can add the MPG Trial of Endurance to that list...)

Different guilds do things different ways. I suppose we might be in the minority, preferring splash heals over complete heals anytime both are an option.

OH lol... i thought you were talking about the group heal. Sorry, I misunderstood!

Palarran
02-18-2006, 07:39 PM
Ah! Ok, yes, we use group heals for many targets. :)

Dari
02-18-2006, 08:16 PM
Saying we should be happy with the group heal we get, regardless of its inefficiency, just because we never had one before makes about as much sense as comparing our group heal to a paladin-a MELEE class. And that makes about as much sense as comparing our dps to a rogue. Sorry, but I too think that the group heal should be worthy of the content a lvl 70 druid actually finds himself/herself healing in.

Sildan
02-18-2006, 08:21 PM
With AE dots, like Vish, it is a lot easier to heal each person as they need then wait for everyone to get low enough that the group heal becomes an option.

Um Actually Aldier, I consider Vish the ideal fight for this spell. At 850 a tick ( plus an initial dd )with like 60-90 seconds between recasts I think this heal will be perfect.

If you've ever have a Pally in your group for Vish, you will know what a pleasure it is. They use their group heal lots and it's a godsend.

Fenier
02-18-2006, 08:34 PM
I too think that the group heal should be worthy of the content a lvl 70 druid actually finds himself/herself healing in.

Level 70 Content varies vastly.

1500 is clearly more then enough for say - Nobles' Causeway and Walls of Slaughter. Its even enough to be used in the intended fashion in MPG and RS.

I think these statement more or less refers to DoD / Nest content - and please do correct me if I am mistaken. You need to acount for scaling tho, for a druid doing this content it wont be healing for 1500.

-Fenier

Fenier
02-18-2006, 08:51 PM
I just reviewed all beta discussion on the spell. All 5 pages.

There was considerable debate to the recast timer.

Not once - NOT ONCE, did any of the druids in beta post that the Healing Portion was to low, nor the mana cost was to high. This includes druids who where testing the new missions and testing the new raids.

So perhaps, just maybe, people should wait the 3 more days till release, obtain the spell and try it out before saying its not going to work.

-Fenier

Quaras
02-18-2006, 08:54 PM
Fenier -- I have to agree with you. As a druid who did use Moonshadow in beta in groups, I found it effective and useful.

Dindail
02-18-2006, 09:32 PM
Level 70 Content varies vastly.

Well considering this spell is part of a new expansion, I would expect it to be scaled accordingly. You really need to start thinking logically, stop thinking a Druid is a class that is lucky to do anything at all, yet be somewhat useful. I personally want a powerful class that is on the edge of necessity in EQ.

Fenier
02-18-2006, 09:39 PM
stop thinking a Druid is a class that is lucky to do anything at all, yet be somewhat useful.

I think we are incredably useful, and I feel we do a decent job at the things we do. We don't excell, but we can do more then most other classes, and do those jobs fairly well.

I personally want a powerful class that is on the edge of necessity in EQ.

Then perhaps your on the wrong class forums? We do alot of things well, but we are no where near on the edge of necessity. That has *never* been what being a druid is about.

-Fenier

Dindail
02-18-2006, 09:56 PM
I agree, we are a powerful class, I have been playing my Druid since Kunark, and have a good 2 - 3 years endgame experience.

We lack 1 thing, that I think will make the class attractive for more than a second rate healer. You have to admit, a raid guild would rather have 20 Clerics on the roster, than 14 Clerics and 6 Druids, the clerics are just not available. In the past we were also useful for DPS if the healing was not needed. A Druids sustained DPS is around 200 at the high end game, we can pulse for somewhere around 700-800 ish for a very short term. It would seem Sony intends for us to be a healing class now, if that is so, then give us the tools to handle that. Gaining a group heal the class should have had ages ago, and then introducing it to the Druid community as a gift claiming we should be lucky to have it, is just crap.

The tool we need should be something completely unique to our class, but powerful enough, that anyone would love to have a Druid with them if they can get one, but not soo powerful that we are required to progress. Reptile helps a bit in this area, but I dont think its quite attractive enough to turn heads.

Fenier
02-18-2006, 10:22 PM
You have to admit, a raid guild would rather have 20 Clerics on the roster, than 14 Clerics and 6 Druids, the clerics are just not available.

I can't really say I agree witht his statement although I know guilds which do function like this. My own pervious experiance the druids where skilled enough if not more so then the available clerics and oftentimes the reason we won certain battles (cleric quaility was really poor).

It would seem Sony intends for us to be a healing class now, if that is so, then give us the tools to handle that. Gaining a group heal the class should have had ages ago, and then introducing it to the Druid community as a gift claiming we should be lucky to have it, is just crap.

I am not sure honestly the thought process went quite this way.

As mob power increased, clerics became more in demand. Since Gates however more power has risen drastically in terms of damage per second. because of this clerics had a stranglehold on all healing because niether a Druid or Shaman could keep up. This clearly makes for bad gameplay.

In the spells revamp and with the addition of various spells (Reptile, Ghost of Renewal, Moonshadow) they are trying to bring the other priests more inline with current content and making us more interchangable with a cleric.

I think this has worked fairly well to varying degrees. I really am not sure a group heal qas the way to go, but since we're getting one I'll be working with it.

I really disagree it should be much, if at all more powerful then it is now. I would perfer instead to have limited ability to heal six targets and perhaps a unquie abilitiy to better handle damage in another way, tho I am not sure what they could come up with spell wise at this point to accomplish that.

I would seriously hate for them to consider ae heals to be our new answer to healing and consider it finished. I really want to avoid being locked into that role. I feel the current verison does alot to address any situation where ae healing may be reqired but doesn't go overboard and is no danger to locking us into that role - and I would rather keep it that way.

-Fenier

Dindail
02-18-2006, 10:57 PM
There are 10,000 things someone with some creativity could come up with instead of just tossing us a heal thats not much more attractive than a Paladin heal and the exact same concept.

If you want to avoid upsetting the rest of the Priest community by farming out the same spells they have to us, then gimping them to avoid upsetting them, maybe someone with a bit of creativity should come up with something totally unique that will be almost just as effective as Cleric group heals.

sliggoth
02-19-2006, 12:24 AM
My main concern is that this spell is starting a new spell line for us so it is setting a precedent. And like the cheal line the precedent is : druids healing is going to be tailored to roughly half of the cleric healing. This spell is REMARKABLY close to the pally spell overall, better in some regards worse in others. So the precedent now is going to be that druid healing should be in line with pally healing?


If we are a priest class shouldnt ours be a wee bit better? The amount of damage healed is actually quite acceptable for many uses, it will heal enough damage to save the casters etc from dots and the like. Its not necessary to give us the huge group heal that clerics have, we could live with a small heal

A lower mana cost would be nice, but this spell is going to be more of a special needs heal, its not going to be a main line heal realistically. Its not normal practice to have all members of your group taking damage at the same time.

Its probably the slowness of the spell/ recast that really shoves it firmly down into the tertiary healing ranks. Druids tend to excell at fast spot healing, lets face it- our slow cheal is NOT our strong point in healing. If we could spam this heal in emergency situations then it would give us a new, useful, thematic spell.

The reason to worry about this heal is that it shows how far down the healing curve it appears druids are meant to be. If our healing in the future is going to be equivalent to pally healing...ugh.

Heh, the spell would be more attractive if the mana cost was higher but it could be chain cast.



Sliggoth, druid/ tradeskiller of 7th Hammer

Palarran
02-19-2006, 12:31 AM
What's the cast time on it? That's one aspect I've missed.

Aldier
02-19-2006, 12:48 AM
There are 10,000 things someone with some creativity could come up with instead of just tossing us a heal thats not much more attractive than a Paladin heal and the exact same concept.

If you want to avoid upsetting the rest of the Priest community by farming out the same spells they have to us, then gimping them to avoid upsetting them, maybe someone with a bit of creativity should come up with something totally unique that will be almost just as effective as Cleric group heals.

Such as.....

Aldier
02-19-2006, 12:49 AM
What's the cast time on it? That's one aspect I've missed.

4.5 seconds before spell haste as last seen on Beta. The live version may appear slightly different.

Aldier
02-19-2006, 12:50 AM
Um Actually Aldier, I consider Vish the ideal fight for this spell. At 850 a tick ( plus an initial dd )with like 60-90 seconds between recasts I think this heal will be perfect.

If you've ever have a Pally in your group for Vish, you will know what a pleasure it is. They use their group heal lots and it's a godsend.

Gah. I am mixing my words up with my fights.

Vish is a prime example of when this would help. Ture, the other DoN dragons are what I was thinking where you don't want to have to wait for everyone in the group to need a heal before you start healing them.

Aldier
02-19-2006, 12:54 AM
We lack 1 thing, that I think will make the class attractive for more than a second rate healer. You have to admit, a raid guild would rather have 20 Clerics on the roster, than 14 Clerics and 6 Druids, the clerics are just not available.

I have to disagree with you here. My guild some nights has seen 12+ primary clerics on for raids and are still happy to see druids log on because druids can fill in a lot more places and support different raid functions a lot more than clerics.

We usually have 3-5 druids on and 7-10 clerics. Not every cleric is used for chain healing on the MA. That allows some groups to have clerics heal them and some have druids and/or shaman.

I am looking forward to this spell and once I obtain it, I will use it on raids and see where it stands, when its useful for me, when to just go without. Remember, this is not a spell you can walk up to a vendor in PoK and purchase, just like Reptile you will have to probably quest for it.

Beatslayer
02-19-2006, 01:13 AM
Ok, here's my push to fix the root trap:

Make the old root trap last 2 seconds long, when it fades, it triggers AE root again, which also lasts 2 seconds, and triggers a new ae root.

The AE casted every 6 seconds by the aura could be called SpringTrap, with effect: Trigger SummerTrap. SpringTrap lasts 2 seconds. SummerTrap is an AE root with half the range of the Springtrap and also lasts 2 seconds. SummerTrap triggers Effect: WinterTrap which lasts 2 seconds as well as being an AE Root with half the range of Spring trap

This could allow us to get one mob into the trap, which roots every 6 seconds, but once a mob is in, it stays in. Then we could get a 2nd mob and bring it to the trap and use the first mob to extend the coverage of our root trap, as it spreads from the aura, to the first, to the second.

Stll, occasoinal resists can mess it up. NOT TOO OCCASIONAL =)

Fenier
02-19-2006, 08:17 AM
Two things:

The Cast time on Moonshadow is directly even with the Cleric Word Line Cast time, they are both 4.5 seconds.

Paladins have 3.0 seconds for a cast time because they are hybrids and are ment to be able to cast the spell while tanking.

Second:

You hardly ever, ever want to root a mob in camp. Rooting a mpb changes the aggro from hate list to proximity and totally would get people killing in a good many instances in some of the newer content because your average dps/caster is not going to be able to take 1500-2k rounds.

-Fenier

Fenier
02-19-2006, 08:25 AM
Its probably the slowness of the spell/ recast that really shoves it firmly down into the tertiary healing ranks. Druids tend to excell at fast spot healing, lets face it- our slow cheal is NOT our strong point in healing. If we could spam this heal in emergency situations then it would give us a new, useful, thematic spell.

I am really really thinking, and I am having a hard time coming up with encounters in which you would need to spam this. At most maybe 2 casts every 30 seconds, and but that would require the recast drop to 12 seconds.

I think a 12 second recast is reasonable. 18 is a bit long - but workable.

What I think alot of people are missing, is Group Healing by spell is not a common situation for priests.

Until this point most group healing occured from:

Divine Arb
Spirit of the Grove
Ancestial Aid
Shaman 1.5/2.0
Cele Rewnal (is this thehighest one? same aa line)

Its rare I see Clerics use Word of Vivifaction, Paladin group heals are more common, but (at least int he context I see them used) they are used to top off the group when people have taken moderate amounts of damage, and ocassionally to offset high powered AE effects.

-Fenier

Discanthir
02-19-2006, 09:17 AM
I think the amount healed is fine. I understand the balancing points. I understand the fact that they did not HAVE to give us this spell at all.
-Fenier

SOE doesn't HAVE to give us a lot of things that we now have. We don't HAVE to subscribe or pay for EQ either. I am pretty sure this is a symbiotic relationship. If we keep giving them money it only makes sense that we should get new content and abilities every now and then.

sliggoth
02-19-2006, 10:10 AM
Its not so much that I see the group heal as being a great spell we will be using all the time. Its more that we are finally getting a group heal (that has been a long time request from a portion of the druid community) and is so closely pegged to the pally group heal.

Healing is one of our core functions, ok we arent supposed to be as good at healing as clerics-- but we certainly are supposed to be better than a tank class!

This group heal is no where near the cleric group heal, fine. But somehow, in some way it should have some distinct edge over the pally heal....in at least some way it should be better. It could also have a drawback (perhaps a bit more mana, we have more mana than pally anyway) to balance but right now it is more of a clone of a tertiary healers spell than anything else.

Some pallys refer to their group heal as their aoe taunt, since it does tend to draw agro. This is already a built in inherent disadvantage to the spell. Being able to spam the spell faster would of course give us the chance of dieing undeer a pile of agro mobs. But we would at least HAVE that option, if the fight was bad enough. Give us some flexibilty with the spell, a faster cast time is going to have built in agro drawbacks that we would have to time ourselves.



Sliggoth, druid/ tradeskiller of 7thHammer

Dindail
02-19-2006, 10:44 AM
Such as.....

I have thought of many ways to do many things, theres really no reason for me to spew that out on these boards, im sure if the developers spend some time on it, they can come up with something. It is their job....


Secondly, I make it seem as if I am dissapointed in the group heal, and realistically I am not. The current content I am involved in, it will work with very well. New expansions bring new content, Focus effects, more AE's, etc. I do not want to ever see this compared to a spell line we gained in PoP, that was marginally useful, then slowly over time faded away. It is typical for Sony to use a carrot on a stick, Moonshadow is exactly the same thing. They may decide not to upgrade it at all, and the fact that we are only gaining a group heal for lvl 70 suggests just that.

The recast timer on the heal needs to go period, there is no reason to have it, a Druid would die spamming it anyway, and everyone else has even said we would never recast the spell like that anyway. There is abolutely no reason to restrict it and gimp the spell.

Secondly, our Clerics use Vivi a whole lot. Every fight? no, they do not. Its situational, just like Moonshadow.

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
02-19-2006, 10:50 AM
At least they didn't put DS on Moonshadow. It's irritating to not be able to use SoTG because the DS will wipe the raid.

Dari
02-19-2006, 10:57 AM
I was just thinking the same thing, Taeyn. Hell, I would spend AAs to be able to drop the ds off SoTG. (option to toggle on or off would be cool.) Replace the ds with cures or mana regen. Or don't replace th ds at all.

As for the new spells, yes I will wait to see how effective they are. But I still agree with many who posted that our group heal is lacking. Lacking enough to be compared to a melee's heal. And that's just not right. Just a little tweaking...slightly more heal, slightly less recast time....would go a long way.

duralupal
02-19-2006, 01:05 PM
and is so closely pegged to the pally group heal.

Add in specialization. No, it's clearly better than the pally version.

Some pallys refer to their group heal as their aoe taunt, since it does tend to draw agro. This is already a built in inherent disadvantage to the spell.

So buy up spell casting sublety and silent casting, we do have tools to deal with the agro.

Nimchip
02-19-2006, 03:42 PM
Add in specialization. No, it's clearly better than the pally version.



So buy up spell casting sublety and silent casting, we do have tools to deal with the agro.
As well as 1.5/2.0 foci :\

duralupal
02-19-2006, 04:09 PM
Yeah, I just didn't want to assume that one of people.

sliggoth
02-19-2006, 10:02 PM
But just putting in specialization you are already assuming that people specialized in alteration...many druids arent spec alteration.

Suggesting that specialization (or aa) make this spell better for us just points out the basic weakness more.



A faster recast on this would be attractive in raid situations. I wouldnt be spamming this on my own group as often as possible...but it would be nice to be able to spam my group, another group...maybe even a third group before coming back to my own. Be nice to have another reason for raids to want druids around.


Sliggoth, druid/ tradeskiller of 7th Hammer

Fenier
02-19-2006, 10:06 PM
A faster recast on this would be attractive in raid situations. I wouldnt be spamming this on my own group as often as possible...but it would be nice to be able to spam my group, another group...maybe even a third group before coming back to my own. Be nice to have another reason for raids to want druids around.

Moonshadow is a direct heal and shouldn't be able to be tgbed as it has no buff icon. As this is reported the case eariler in this thread you will only be able to cast it on a single group - your own.

I am really trying and I still have yet to come up with a raid in which you would need to spam this heal repeatadly.

-Fenier

duralupal
02-19-2006, 10:48 PM
But just putting in specialization you are already assuming that people specialized in alteration...many druids arent spec alteration.

No, I'm assuming that their alt-spec is above zero. I would hope that's true of any druid who can cast this spell.

sliggoth
02-20-2006, 01:05 AM
OK, forget it then. The spell is fine as is and druid healing is now comparable to pally healing.


Sliggoth

Silxie
02-20-2006, 01:28 AM
Im pretty happy with the group heal having played with it a bit in Beta. It seems to do the job I need it too, and that is what matters to me. Im a bit less certain about Barkspur, but I have yet to play with it enough to really get a feel for if it works. I *really* wish they had leaned more heavily on the cure portion for Aura, and less on regen, but in general I was just relieved we didn't get yet another snare/root spell. I am still trying to figure out what to do with Hungry Vines and Spore Spiral, and kicking myself for buying the DoN snare.
/kick

Aldier
02-20-2006, 04:05 AM
OK, forget it then. The spell is fine as is and druid healing is now comparable to pally healing.

We have the 2nd best group heal in the game. It is better than pallies and worse than clerics.

They are not going to take group heals away from pallies so leaving Clerics>Pallies. Where would you have druid group healing go.

a)Druids>Clerics>Pallies
b)Clerics>Druids>Pallies
c)Clerics>Pallies>Druids

Based on Beta testing, Moonshadow fits case b which to me is where we SHOULD be.

You claim we will not chain cast this spell yet we need to remove the recast timer so that we can chain cast it. That seems very flawed to me. I will not need to cast this spell until a 12/18sec recast but putting the recast in ruins the spell??? It sounds like they based the recast on what people were claiming they needed for the spell.

Discanthir
02-20-2006, 08:05 AM
We have the 2nd best group heal in the game. It is better than pallies and worse than clerics.

They are not going to take group heals away from pallies so leaving Clerics>Pallies. Where would you have druid group healing go.

Sliggoth never said pallies should have their group heal taken away, or that we should have better heals than clerics. You came up with that all on your own.

What was said is that our heal is comparable to a pally's. The argument is more like this. Clerics group heal = 10, Pallies = 1. Druid heals should not = 2. We should come somewhere in the middle, more the 4-6 range.

Clerics’ Word of Vivification heals for 3427 at level 70, same casting time as Moonshadow, 4.5 seconds, and costs 1357 mana. I am not including the disease, poison, and curse cure portion here because it really doesn't matter, I am comparing the group healing portion. If anything it just means their heal is more efficient because it could be argued some of the 1357 mana is going towards the cures. Pallies’ Wave of Piety heals for 1316 at level 70, casting time is 3 seconds, and it costs 1048 mana. Moonshadow heals for 1500 at level 70, casting time is 4.5 seconds, and costs 1100 mana.

So, Cleric>Druid>Pally.
3427>1500>1316 hitpoints healed.
1357>1100>1048 mana cost, or
1257>1100>1048 if you want to knock off 100 mana attributing it to the cure portion of the cleric spell.
2.5>1.4>1.3 hitpoints healed per point of mana used or
2.7>1.4>1.3 hp per mana if you want to knock that 100 off again.
4.5>4.5>3 seconds are the casting times.
761.6>333.3>438.7 hitpoints healed for every second of casting time.

Which is the closer comparison to Moonshadow, the pally heal, or the cleric heal?

You should not include specialization changes. You should go off the base spell. Pallies can't do that for a reason, they are a melee class. If you really want to then fine, compare how much damage their melee dps can do vs us, and how much damage they can take vs us. It doesn't make much sense either way. We are a caster class, they are a melee class. We each have advantages to our respective roles. Also remember that clerics can specialize as well, if you really don’t want to give that argument up.

I am not 100% sure of the recast times on Wave of Piety or Word of Vivification so if someone else would like to give those numbers, please do. If any of my numbers are wrong please feel free to correct me.

sliggoth
02-20-2006, 08:31 AM
I was planning on ust throwing up my hands over this..one last try.

Yes, the above post is covers what I have been saying (more coherently then my own ramblings).


I had not caught before that the group heal was not targetted. Perhaps the way to make ours unique would in fact to change ours to a targetted version. Yes that would perhaps mean letting it be MGBed, but it would only be replacing MGB sotw after all. This would have the added benefit of allowing a MGB healing for druids in those events where the MGB sotw is a bad idea because of the DS component.


All I have been saying for the first is that this spell is VERY close to the pally spell. The small boost in healing power is offset by casting time (considering its going to be an emergency group heal often casting time is critical).


As things stand now the spell is saying: druids arent supposed to heal in the same league as clerics, we understood this; druids are supposed to heal just about the same as pallys, this...this I hadnt believed to be true.

Sliggoth

Fenlayen
02-20-2006, 09:43 AM
I'm sorry I can't really understand where you are coming from. Just because you have been given a group heal doesnt mean that it has to be better than the paladin heal or just below cleric heals.

I was really happy when I saw that druids and shamans would be getting a form of group healing, it's something you have lacked and needed. I don't agree with the recast time and I have made my views about it being the wrong decision quite clear on the beta boards.

But the whole it's a slap in the face to druids is just stupid. It would be like clerics getting snare then complaining that the ranger one is better.

/sigh

Another thing to bear in mind Paladins do not get to spec or get the SCM AA. This means your heals and other priest class heals are more mana efficent than they appear to be. Someone playing at the stage of the game that needs the group heals would/should have SCM.

Kaidman
02-20-2006, 09:52 AM
Same Fen, I'm completely /puzzled. I can't wait to get my hands on the group heal. I thought this was a no brainer awesome spell and something that a lot of people have been wanting for a long time on these boards. I normally posted against us getting a group heal because I didn't even think it was something devs would feasibly give us. Now they give it to us and the same people who were complaining we couldn't heal good enough without it are complaining about the spell itself. We got the best spells of all classes in PoR probably just because of this spell and people want more.

Discanthir
02-20-2006, 09:58 AM
But the whole it's a slap in the face to druids is just stupid. It would be like clerics getting snare then complaining that the ranger one is better.

No, healing is supposed to be one of the primary roles of a druid. Snaring has never been a roll of clerics. If they give them one, all the more power to clerics. If they suddenly give clerics a snare that is close to our's, but more on equal/more powerful terms to another class that already has it, and not upgrading that random other class's abilities by nearly the same amount, then the analagy would be a bit closer.

Perhaps I need to clarify my saying it is *almost* like a slap in the face. My thoughts on this spell are more like this... Well, you have asked and asked for a group heal, and since you are a healing class, in fact the second most powerful healing class, we have finally decided to give you one, just not exactly what you meant. Here is a group heal that works, but is sort of crappy, especially for the level, restrictions, and compared to other classes. To me it is a gift with a catch, and that has always been one of my biggest pet peeves. Please also note when I made that statement I was referring to my opinion of this spell, not 'The be all and end all of what every Druid should think.'

Fenier
02-20-2006, 10:05 AM
we have finally decided to give you one, just not exactly what you meant. Here is a group heal that works, but is sort of crappy, especially for the level, restrictions, and compared to other classes.

And it should be. We've never ever had the power to heal 6 targets directly. NEVER. There is *no* reason it should rival a class who has been doing this for *7* years. None.

I really don't think Druids as a class where ever ment to have group heals. They gave us one, it works. Its not stellar by any means but it does it's job.

An aspect people are forgetting is this spell is tied to a mission arc in all probability. No Druid doing the arc is ever- ever- going to heal for 1500 base less they where gimped in to all the misisons. That is an important point I think alot of people are overlooking.

-Fenier

Fenlayen
02-20-2006, 10:11 AM
No, healing is supposed to be one of the primary roles of a druid. Snaring has never been a roll of clerics. If they give them one, all the more power to clerics. If they suddenly give clerics a snare that is close to our's, but more on equal/more powerful terms to another class that already has it, and not upgrading that random other class's abilities by nearly the same amount, then the analagy would be a bit closer.


Group healing was never up till now a primary role of a druid now it seems it might be, while it has been a paladin/cleric one for a long time. You have been given the chance to get something you have never had before and it's seems it's not good enough for you :confused: ?

How can it be not good enough ? you dont have another druid group heal to compare it against. :shuffle:

Dindail
02-20-2006, 11:01 AM
So here I go again, with the comparrisons.

Ancient Chlorobon (Druid lvl 70)
-99.80 MPS
-13.69 HPM
-1357.77 HPS

Ancient Hallowed Light (Cleric lvl 70)
-103.39 MPS
-16.75 HPM
-1732.79 HPS
Nice and balanced. I like the balance between the 2 top healers in the game like this, its logical.

Complete Heal (Cleric lvl 39)
-25.74 MPS
-37.88 HPM
-975.25 HPS

Karana's Renewal (Druid lvl 64)
-37.87 MPS
-12.63 HPM
-478.55 HPS
Introduced in PoP, due to the fact the Druid community needed some way to heal long fights and be able to step in for CH rotations. Over the course of time this is what the spell has turned into. Notice its never been upgraded or fixed, and it was a farmed out Cleric ability, so the result was a less powerful spell. Notice the HPM numbers between our best CH and our best fast heal. Can you say obsolete?

Moonshadow (Druid lvl 70)
-31.84 MPS
-25.8 HPM
-821.65 HPS

Wave of Piety (Paladin lvl 70)
-26.62 MPS
-18.34 HPM
-488.41 HPS

Word of Vivification (Cleric lvl 69)
-165.52 MPS
-46.77 HPM
-7741.87 HPS
Once again, a farmed out Cleric and Paladin ability. Notice that it is very similar to the Paladin heal in every way, and very lacking in relation to the Cleric heal. I am feeling the same fate with Moonshadow as I did with our Renewal line. Also does anyone remember how quickly our renewal line became obsolete, even in the expansion it was built for?

This brings me to my last point. This is a new expansion, the difficulty will go up, the introduction of a group heal for Druids suggests that the AE's will be very abundant, possibly even in EXP group content. The way this spell will be obtained may even be geared for end game raiders and guilds doing lower lvl content may not even be able to obtain this spell for their own Druids. These are the reasons I think the heal should be either less restrictive or more powerful. Speculation? of course, I have learned my lesson, have the rest of you?

Fenier
02-20-2006, 11:16 AM
Also does anyone remember how quickly our renewal line became obsolete, even in the expansion it was built for?

I still perfer to use KR when I am healing single group content for extended periods of time. While dated I would venture a great many druids also still use this spell in a similar manner.


These are the reasons I think the heal should be either less restrictive or more powerful. Speculation? of course, I have learned my lesson, have the rest of you?

Even if AEs where more common in this expansion, previous encounters tend to have a major ae once every 30-60 seconds. In order for the recast time to become a major issue you would need to be experiancing massive amounts of damage to multple group members on a continous basis. I am not sure I see this to be true as even in Depths where aes are more common them previous they do not hit once every 18 seconds, let alone once every 30 on average (speaking about exp content).

I do think the recast is a bit long. I think it should be 12. I do not think it should be 2.5 at all.

I also don't see them adding direct damage aes to exp content which exceed what this spell would be capable of. IN a great many ae encounters the Cleric AE Heal is overkill.

-Fenier

Fenlayen
02-20-2006, 11:17 AM
I have learned my lesson, have the rest of you?

I'm sorry but the only lesson i'm getting from this is no matter what you give some people they always want more. :cool:

Fenier
02-20-2006, 11:19 AM
I'm sorry but the only lesson i'm getting from this is no matter what you give some people they always want more. :cool:

So true, wonder if we can make this a 15 or 20 page thread before server up tomorrow.

Nimchip
02-20-2006, 11:29 AM
The only lesson I've learned is that they are going the same way that they did with spot heals: be slower and more mana. Sorry, I just don't see the recast time tuned in respect to paladins being adequate.

Fenlayen
02-20-2006, 11:31 AM
The only lesson I've learned is that they are going the same way that they did with spot heals: be slower and more mana. Sorry, I just don't see the recast time tuned in respect to paladins being adequate.

Don't think i've seen anyone apart from some paladins agreeing with the 18 sec recast thing.

mordien
02-20-2006, 12:01 PM
Sorry, I just don't see the recast time tuned in respect to paladins being adequate.

Sigh, yet another class to add to the long list of classes that we have to be balanced against.

Besides that I'm not overly worried about 18 sec recasting. At the mana cost though I wouldn't cast it faster than 18 sec anyway, but if it makes the pallies happy. Hey who am I to question it?

Dari
02-20-2006, 12:07 PM
Saying that this spell is fine once you factor in all the applicable AAs is not a fair assessment. One should not be required to spend X amount of AAs in order to make a spell feasible to use. The AAs are to enhance the usefulness, not make it useful.

Again, I'd like to see the heal slightly increased and the recast slightly decreased. I don't think that's overpowering. And yes, I think if SoE gave clerics a snare that cost a huge amount of mana, held randomly and had a long recast, they'd fuss about its lack of usefulness-and rightly so. Saying a class should be happy with a spell because it gave them something they never had before just doesn't make sense. I will wait and see how it works out in actual use. I wasn't in beta.

Fenier
02-20-2006, 12:28 PM
Saying that this spell is fine once you factor in all the applicable AAs is not a fair assessment. One should not be required to spend X amount of AAs in order to make a spell feasible to use. The AAs are to enhance the usefulness, not make it useful.

Ok then, I'll say the spell is fine before AAs. AA's make it far more useful because content scales.

If your doing WoS as a level 70, and mange to get this spell you are not going to require a 1500+ Group Heal.

If your doing RS and have this spell, 1500 is decent and since I am sure your apt to have healing aa by this point, the spell is healing for more and thus remains balanced.

Again, I'd like to see the heal slightly increased and the recast slightly decreased. I don't think that's overpowering. And yes, I think if SoE gave clerics a snare that cost a huge amount of mana, held randomly and had a long recast, they'd fuss about its lack of usefulness-and rightly so. Saying a class should be happy with a spell because it gave them something they never had before just doesn't make sense.

This actually happened - but it was with Paladins.

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=8027&source=Live

300 Mana, 18 second recast for a 1200 DD verus undead only with a random chance to snare - which lasts a random duration, to a maximum of 30 seconds.

Excessivly specialized. Snare is not even assured, it can be resisted even when it fires. But I know alot of paladins which where happy to get it because it *might* snare on the content they typically solo (undead).

It is all in how you look at it. Some classes are more thankful then others and I really don't think this class quailfies for that award.

-Fenier

Sildan
02-20-2006, 12:58 PM
My guild has never PVPd a Players Paladin nor have we PVPd a Players Cleric. We usually fight Anguish bosses, Yar'lir, Vish and Tier 1 Demiplane bosses. I'm much more concerned with how Moonshadow will work against them. I could care less how it works against Fred The Paladins heal.

The moral here? QUIT comparing our crap to other peoples crap. It means absolutely nothing. Nobody in their right mind is going to say. Screw the Paladin, I want the druid with the group heals that have more focus effects. Or DANG we really needed a Pally for the 30 foot longer range on his group heal. I truly beleive in my heart that nobody but number crunchers on message boards will really make a comparison on these heals and discuss it. It will not IMO effect decisions when inviting someone to a group. Nobody is losing their job or desireability over this.

Lets just wait and see how it works against the mobs. Then if it needs tweeking you can discuss it with first hand knowledge of putting it into play in the live game.

Discanthir
02-20-2006, 01:22 PM
How can it be not good enough ?

If my previous posts and this have not made that clear, I really have no idea how to get my point across


you dont have another druid group heal to compare it against. :shuffle:

Just because there is not a druid precedent doesnít mean there isnít a precedent. For people who think that since paladinís have had a group heal much longer than us and that theirsí should be better, fine. I really do understand that. However, it has always bothered me that a melee class has a heal that the secondary healing class in EQ does not, and as suffered for on multiple occasions. The outlook you have on Moonshadow will of course be vastly different based on which view you have.


I'm sorry but the only lesson i'm getting from this is no matter what you give some people they always want more.

If that is the lesson you are getting from this I would love to see how you feel when this comment is made about something you think should be tweaked because it is not completely fair. Really, how is that statement constructive to this discussion at all?


To those of you who think this spell is balanced and are arguing based of that, fine. I respect that. Itís a valid argument. Something I donít understand one bit are the comments about how we should be grateful for getting an ability we have never had. If every other class continues to get the same abilities they have always had, but upgraded, and druids get new abilities like being able to levitate twice as high as everyone else, or get a bash that works once in every 20 times you try and use it, would you feel grateful? Now, before people go off saying I am comparing Moonshadow to useless things like these, I am not. I am using these examples to point out why feeling grateful just because something is new is not a working line of reasoning.

People are missing a lot of my points. I LOVE that we are getting a group heal. I am very happy this is finally happening, and I am pretty sure I have said that I am happy we have gotten one. The issue I am having problems with is that this spell is not a balanced spell between classes. If Moonshadow stays the way it is, I will be irritated but still use and enjoy it.
<O:p</O:p

Druidsí powers are mediocre compared to a specialized class. We have a lot of combined powers at our disposal, and for that they should be weaker. Everyone knows this is what keeps our class in line with others. What I am *not* ok withis continuing to lower that bar. That is exactly the trend that has been developing, and Moonshadow is a prime example. This spell is not a balanced spell for a druid. Make the cast time a second shorter and it would be balanced for a paladin. Make it heal for 1750 and lower the recast time to 12 seconds, lower the mana cost to 975 and lower the recast time to 12 seconds, maybe lower the cast time to 2 seconds and the recast time to 12 seconds and we are getting into our range. I am not greedy, I do not think we should be all powerful, but I do think we should at least stop losing ground. Gaining abilities we have needed and never have had before is great, but that is no reason to accept spells weaker than what we should have!
<O:p</O:p

This might not be the case with all druids, but I have had a lot of personal experience with people not wanting to group with a druid has a healer. I am not even going to comment on wanting us for dps when mages, necros, or wizards are available. There have been many times when people have been making groups that needed a healer, but I see things like ĎWell, we have been waiting around for a while. Give us 20 minutes and if we donít find a cleric we will take youí, ĎSorry, we are looking for a cleric onlyí, and I have even seen groups disband rather than take a druid on for a healer, etc, etc. These things donít happen all the time by any means, but they are also not rare cases. There is almost never a time when a group takes me on as a healer are not happy with the decision. I know how to use our skills well, and I donít lose group members easily. Hell, people in my guild even call me the Druid cleric, so I damn well know it isnít because of me.
<O:p</O:p

People should want a druid for a healer, and well I really think a group heal is going to help with this, it is not by a long shot the solution to this issue. Compared to clerics we have gotten further and further behind in healing power. I agree that clerics should be able to heal quite a bit better than us, but not so far that it is getting to the point where we arenít even in the same league. Every little bit further down the line counts, and that is what Moonshadow is doing. Making it stronger will not make everyone suddenly want druids for healers, or think that we have the same abilities a cleric does, but it will not keep up the trend of lowering our power little bits as time wears on.
<O:p</O:p

I really donít know how to make it any more known that this is the reason Moonshadow bothers me. I think I have repeated myself enough. If you donít think this way, fine. I am completely ok with that! I am an extremely strong believer that everyone has a right to their own opinion, and like it or not this is mine. Like it or not I am not a person who is greedy and not someone who no matter what I get will always want more. Before any single one of you even mentions that again log on to Quellious/Rodcet Nife. Ask around. Ask my guild, Dragons of Exile. Ask people in Outcast Adventures or Ecce Necco who we are allied with and know me. Sit in PoK for a weekend and spam ďIf anyone knows Discanthir the druid please pm meĒ and then ask about me. If you donít, then keep quiet because you really have no idea what you are talking about. I am not a saint whatsoever, but hell if I am greedy or donít think of otherís first, which does include all the non druid classes out there.
<O:p</O:p

When you express an opinion to add to a discussion it is one thing, when you express them simply to bother another or be detrimental it is quite different. I believe that is a given. Everyone has intelligent and stupid opinions. I know I have plenty of both. As long as a post is keeping on track without being intentionally insulting it is common courtesy and common sense to do the same.
<O:p</O:p

When an online debate of a part of a game I play to de-stress and enjoy myself makes me angry I know it is time to stop. I am going to try and refrain from further posting on this thread. If anyone would like to continue an open discussion with me, feel free to pm me. Otherwise I hope I at least added something constructive to this debate. Good luck all, enjoy the new expansion, and have fun in Norrath.

Discanthir
02-20-2006, 01:35 PM
It is all in how you look at it. Some classes are more thankful then others and I really don't think this class quailfies for that award.

One last thing. I really don't think this is an award worth anything. When paying for a computer game, it's expansions, and a monthly fee do you really think it is appropriate to be thankful when a bone is thrown to you?

Dindail
02-20-2006, 01:48 PM
Discanthir

Well said, that is all...

Fenier
02-20-2006, 04:02 PM
One last thing. I really don't think this is an award worth anything. When paying for a computer game, it's expansions, and a monthly fee do you really think it is appropriate to be thankful when a bone is thrown to you?

Using the term award out of the context its stated in.

As in - if there was a Award for being thankful that we're getting something we asked for, we clearly wouldn't quailify.

We as a class seldom ever seem happy about things and honestly its getting old.

EQ as a game is not that bad off. The Druid class has gained drastically in recent expansions, esp in the area of Healing.

This is continued here, with the addition of Moonshadow.

Druids in Beta where pretty happy with Moonshadow, the sole exception is we feel the recast should be lower. Some think 2.5 but most agree that 6-12 seconds is fine.

What people are having a hard time understand, and this is a key point. We have never - ever - been able to heal a group at the same time with a direct heal.

Here is a breakdown:

No Spell Haste is factored because I am being lazy.

Any 3.75 Patch Heal x 6 = 22.5 Seconds Casting
Refresh is 2.5 X 5 for 12.5 seconds your spells are greyed out.
Total Time used to heal 6 people 35 Seconds.

Moonshadow Cast Time: 4.5 Seconds

What does this mean? Healing 6 People with Moonshadow - reguardless of ratio is 7.8~ times faster then healing them all one at a time. You *gain* 30.5 Seconds to do SOMETHING ELSE. If you have spell haste that number only INCREASES, this is a KEY point in using a group heal.

That said, the Ratio I feel is adquate for a spell line we have NEVER had before because I honestly think this is something we shouldn't be all that great at. It doesn't make sense in any concept for a class to gain an ability 7 years afte release and rival people who have had that ability for multiple years. None.

1500 Base is 3 max hits from a WoS Mob.
Depending on Mob Type its 1-2 from a MPG Mob
Its at least 1 froma RS+ mob unless your killing a named mob or hard missions.

Thats at base. Someone doing RS+ is going to have ranks in Adept and after focus your looking at around a 3k Heal, with 5-6 on a Crtical.

Now, some of you are going to say, its not fair to factor in AAs.. And to this I say - Lies.

It was made clear in a dev post during beta some content is designed for level 70. Some is for level 70+.

The Differance? Content designed for Level 70s is designed for people who are level 70 with low AA counts.

Content designed for Level 70+ is for people with Higher AA totals.

So this may come a shock, Sony designs content based around people's gear level, AA count and very probable the type of focus they are bound to have by that point.

This is an important factor. Typically you can ignore AAs and Focuses for comparisons - but not in the case of a Priest verus a Hybrid.

The Priest has more ranks in both Adept and Gift, has specialization and access to SCM. The priest heal could have a worse ratio and still come out ahead all said and done.

-Fenier

Dindail
02-20-2006, 05:13 PM
Any 3.75 Patch Heal x 6 = 22.5 Seconds Casting
Refresh is 2.5 X 5 for 12.5 seconds your spells are greyed out.
Total Time used to heal 6 people 35 Seconds.

Moonshadow Cast Time: 4.5 Seconds
You are REALLY bad at skewing data.

Time to heal 6 people with Ancient Chlorobon = 36 secs. and 18,564 hpts.
Time to heal 6 people with Moonshadow = 18 secs. and 9,000 hpts.

You would never just plain out use Ancient Chlorobon to heal someone for 1500 hpts. Therefore you would wait for them to take more dmg or use a lower lvl heal (sorry not a Cleric don't have the spare slots). Then you do the math, and you actually heal more hpts faster with Ancient Chlorobon than you would with Moonshadow.

Want to try again?

EDIT: You also have it backwards, Spell haste does nothing for Moonshadow, but would infact make you heal much faster with single target heals x6 people.

Nimchip
02-20-2006, 05:18 PM
18 secs isn't the cast time, it's the cooldown/refresh time. Why are you factoring that in?

duralupal
02-20-2006, 05:21 PM
You should not include specialization changes. You should go off the base spell

How in the heck did you come to that conclusion? If you want to ignore SCM and specialization that's your choice I guess. Me, I'll compare based on how the spells perform in the game rather than how they perform on a website.

As far as their melee and damage ability....The proper analogy would be a pally freakin' out over a druid wielding a weapon with a ratio similar to his own while ignoring his own higher offense, weapon skill, double attack, and melee AA.

If you want to ignore some factors of how the game works because they don't help your argument, go ahead.

Yes, clerics specialize as well, nowhere have I mentioned our specialization with reference to clerics because they should group heal better than us anyway.

Fenier
02-20-2006, 05:22 PM
You are REALLY bad at skewing data.

Time to heal 6 people with Ancient Chlorobon = 36 secs. and 18,564 hpts.
Time to heal 6 people with Moonshadow = 18 secs. and 9,000 hpts.

You would never just plain out use Ancient Chlorobon to heal someone for 1500 hpts. Therefore you would wait for them to take more dmg or use a lower lvl heal (sorry not a Cleric don't have the spare slots). Then you do the math, and you actually heal more hpts faster with Ancient Chlorobon than you would with Moonshadow.

Want to try again?
Since your having issues with math

Time to heal with Anicent, lets go your number 36 Seconds

Cast Time of Moonshadow 4.5 seconds not 18 I know you can't recast it for 18 seconds but the fact remains you cast and heal 6 people in 4.5 seconds.

So my math is correct, the amount healed is irrealvant to the time spent in casting.

Thank You for playing!

Btw spell haste:

<table class="spellview" cellpadding="3" width="95%"><tbody><tr><td class="spelllabel" align="right">1: </td> <td>Increase Spell Haste by 15%</td></tr> <tr><td class="spelllabel" align="right">2: </td> <td>Limit: Max Level(70) (lose 5% per level over cap)</td></tr> <tr><td class="spelllabel" align="right">3: </td> <td>Limit: Spell(Complete Healing excluded)</td></tr> <tr><td class="spelllabel" align="right">4: </td> <td>Limit: Min Casting Time(3.00 sec)</td></tr> <tr><td class="spelllabel" align="right">5: </td> <td>Limit: Effect(Percentage Heal excluded)</td></tr> <tr><td class="spelllabel" align="right">6: </td> <td>Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed</td></tr></tbody></table>
No where does it say group excluded so spel haste does work.

-Fenier

Kaidman
02-20-2006, 05:23 PM
You go ahead and waste 723x6 = 4368 mana to heal for 18,564 hitpoints big daddy. I'll stick to casting Moonshadow twice for 2200 mana total and 18,000 hitpoints.

Not to mention it will only take me 4.5 + 18 + 4.5 = 27 seconds to heal my 18, 000.

NEXT.

Nimchip
02-20-2006, 05:25 PM
Was probably a mistake, don't h8 on him! I do it all the time :D

Dindail
02-20-2006, 05:27 PM
I factor that in, due to the fact that by saying Moonshadow heals 7.8 times faster is stretching reality thin. Too many factors involved in encounters to put that kind of stamp on the spell and make everyone assume its really that good.

Some of these include, how much dmg your group is taking per second. How long the fight lasts, and if you can really utilize that (extra) time before recasts to do something else, or if 1100 mana every 18 seconds is going to drag you down to the point you need to use that time to med.

Either way, the data equates out to the point where Moonshadow is roughly 2x better than Ancient Chlorobon and not 7.8. I would hope that it would be more efficient to use a group heal over single target heals...

Fenier
02-20-2006, 05:31 PM
I factor that in, due to the fact that by saying Moonshadow heals 7.8 times faster is stretching reality thin.
Except, its not.

Moonshadow will heal 6 targets 7 times faster then casting Anicent x6.

The amount it heals for is completely indepenant of the speed of the heal in this example.

The only time the amount healed for would come into play, is if you had to offset enough damage to warrent more then one cast of Moonshadow.

In either case, as Kaidman pointed out, two casts of Moonshadow is still less mana and cast time then healing each member of the group once with any of our 3.75 heals.

An extra factor your missing is if you where to cast Moonshadow twice, you have twice the chance of scoring a critical heal - Or 12 chances to Critical when you Cast Moonshadow twice, as opposed to 6 chances to critcal when you cast Anicent x6.

-Fenier

Nimchip
02-20-2006, 05:33 PM
I still don't understand where you get that Moonshadow is roughly 2x better than A.Chloro... I mean it doesn't make much sense calculating from a recast timer point of view - well to me anyway.

Dindail
02-20-2006, 05:35 PM
If you guys would ask me how I run my numbers you would understand that I take into effect all variables. Im not just tossing data around, I base everything on a 11,000 mana pool with mana regen per tic factored in as well.

Sure, you can cast moonshadow in 2.7 secs, then do something else. Once again making the generalization that due to that ONE factor alone makes the spell 7.8 times faster is absurd.

Ive posted all the data in previous pages, to sit here and try to make it apprear different is just grasping at straws.



It's right there.......plain as day.....

Fenier
02-20-2006, 05:39 PM
Sure, you can cast moonshadow in 2.7 secs, then do something else. Once again making the generalization that due to that ONE factor alone makes the spell 7.8 times faster is absurd.

Except its not.

The math I provided is correct assuming one cast of Moonshadow.

Even using Kaidman's example of 2 casts, its still faster and heals compariable damage to Anicent x6.

Additonally, you have to be taking a drastic amount of damage to warrent 2 casts in 30 seconds. And even if you where, 2200 Mana (Moonshadow x2) is still less then the 4608? or so you would need to heal each group member once. So even at 2 casts to equal out to Anicent your looking at 9? seconds cast time to 36 against our 3.75 second heals, and its STILL 4 times faster.

You also gain at least 10 seconds to do something else in that amount of time. Surely if your group is taking enough damage to warrent 2 casts you can find *something* to do in 10 seconds, even if its just sitting and regaining mana - something you can't do when your Chaning Anicent on 6 Targets.

-Fenier

Kaidman
02-20-2006, 05:57 PM
I'm confused why we're even arguing ancient vs moonshadow. If you want to conserve mana to heal a group you use moonshadow. If you need to heal an individual or 2 people you use ancient. If you are healing 4 or more you use group heal. If your group is taking a serious beatdown (no raids I can think of currently that pound out AEs heavily) you use moonshadow and patch more with ancient while moonshadow refreshes.

If people want to get their panties in a bunch let's compare Word of Redemption (cleric) to Moonshadow!

Group heal for 10,000 to each member. 60,000 healed vs 9,000 healed for the same mana (1100) ZOMG.

Minadin
02-20-2006, 05:59 PM
Yeah, I'll take my group heal and not complain about it. Heck, I was even happy when it was going to be a heal over time. I don't care about the 18 second recast. I wonder how hard it will be to get.

Fenier
02-20-2006, 06:11 PM
I went ahead and did some more numbers.

Moonshadow x4 = 36,000hp in 72 Seconds
Ancient x6 = 18,564hp in 36 seconds
Anciient x12 = 37,128hp in 72 seconds

Moonshadow x4 = 4400 Mana
Anicent x 6 = 4338 Mana
Anicent x12 = 8676 Mana

Differance?

You spend 4276 more mana casting Ancient x12 to Moonshadow x4.
Ancient x12 Heals 1128 more hitpoints for that extra 4276 Mana
This breaks down to your healing each person for an extra 188 Hitpoints.

During that 72 second time frame:

You spent 18 seconds Casting Moonshadow.
You spent 72 seconds Casting Anicent, recast is 2.5 so unless you have Clicky Items which heal, you can't do anything else in this time frame.

Time Saved? 54 Seconds
Moonshadow retains a 4 times quicker cast even at the point your chain casting it. (18 x 4 = 72 seconds)

Its 7.8 times faster when your doing one single cast.

Gaze of Anguish is one of the strongest AEs I am aware of, and even it only lands once every 45 seconds.

Assuming it hits everyone Moonshadow x2 is *still* the way to go, and you gain 18 seconds to do whatever else you may have to do.

The sheer amount of time saved is important.

Now you can argue mana cost and value healed all you like. At 1500 Base its still more mana effective to cast Moonshadow x2 then Anicent x6. And clearly spell cast time is important in balancing of the spell. If I can heal the same amount as Ancinet x6 and still have 20+ seconds left over to do something else - that is critical to how the spells heal value is balanced.

EDIT: Kaidman beat me to it, blast him!

-Fenier

Dindail
02-20-2006, 06:25 PM
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=7304&source=Live

This AE is fun, and moonshadow would fail to heal it alone, so you would most likely have to use single targets as well, and you also take fall DMG, thou not much depending on where you decide to fight this creature.

Shall we assume there will be nothing worse in PoR???

P.S. You would have AA and item focuses factored in (I would hope) at this lvl of the game making this comparisson false....

duralupal
02-20-2006, 06:32 PM
So, for the druid versus pally comparison. As far as how the spell will behave in game, not on a website. We'll leave out mana pres as it's available to everybody. Gonna assume SCM3 because any druid with 18aa should have it.

Pally
HP 1316 x 6 = 7896 max base
Mana 1048
For a max efficiency of 7.5

Druid
HP 1500 x 6 = 9000 max base
Mana 1100 base

w/50 alt spec the cost is reduced to ~957
For a max efficiency of 9.4 -- already well above pally efficiency

w/100 alt spec (secondary forte) the cost is reduced to ~924
For a max efficiency of 9.74

w/200 alt spec the cost is reduced to ~869
For a max efficiency of 10.35

So even for the non-alt spec'd person with no secondary forte the spell easily outperforms a pallies in terms of efficiency. If you're alt spec'd it's not even close.

% savings were obtained (since I didn't remember off the top of my head) by simply logging in, taking off the mana pres items, casting on myself and checking the mana cost against base mana cost. (not casting Moonshadow of course, but rather an alt spell, conj spell, and evok spell).

Kaidman
02-20-2006, 06:47 PM
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=7304&source=Live

This AE is fun, and moonshadow would fail to heal it alone, so you would most likely have to use single targets as well, and you also take fall DMG, thou not much depending on where you decide to fight this creature.

Shall we assume there will be nothing worse in PoR???

P.S. You would have AA and item focuses factored in (I would hope) at this lvl of the game making this comparisson false....

Glad you used this AE as an example. I do not even have to heal my group at all on this encounter 9 times out of 10 due to the weakness of this AE vs the gear of people doing this encounter.

Sildan
02-20-2006, 08:52 PM
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=7304&source=Live

This AE is fun, and moonshadow would fail to heal it alone, so you would most likely have to use single targets as well, and you also take fall DMG, thou not much depending on where you decide to fight this creature.

Shall we assume there will be nothing worse in PoR???

P.S. You would have AA and item focuses factored in (I would hope) at this lvl of the game making this comparisson false....


Don't forget to peel off 35% from that AE. The folks who encounter that usually have 35% spell shield. Alot of folks may have Alendar or Geomantra on them as well. Can't really use the raw number from an AE end game.

Ariene Everlost
02-20-2006, 09:21 PM
Fenier, comparing our level 70 group heal to a level 52 cleric group heal makes no sense whatsoever. I do understand you are comparing like to like, and it would make sense if clerics use Word of Vigor for healing groups instead of Word of Vivication. But I really doubt they think ... oh! I have no need to cure disease, poison, or curse, so let me just mem Word of Vigor.

I don't raid with level 52 clerics, nor do I compete for a healing/group role with level 52 clerics.


I only mem my level 57 group heal. I used the 52 group heal until I was level 66 and then moved up one since the people I grouped with had more HPs. Our higher ones are imo total overkill and I don't want to spend the mana for them. I encourage other clerics I raid with to use lower group heals as well. Granted, you don't have divine arbitration to even out the damage before group healing but I think you'll find that you rarely need a big group heal. Either everyone is taking SOME damage or one or two people are taking a lot of damage in which case it is more mana efficient to use normal heals instead of group heals.

sliggoth
02-21-2006, 01:47 AM
One last try.

I like the looks of our new spells, the new aura.

I am concerned about the precendent of giving us a group heal and pegging it at the pally level, roughly 40 percent (maybe 50, depends on whose arguements you go with) of the cleric spell.

We went through this once with our cheal. In theorey we are supposed to be roughly able to heal at 2/3rds, 3/4ths the ability of clerics (numbers vary depending on how far back and when soe mentions this).


I am not so worried about the weakness of the group heal as I am worried about what this implies for the future. If we should just sit down and be happy to be getting a group heal...will this mean that future spells will be balanced the same way? Granted a faster recast would VERY seldom be used, it would indicate that our healing is somewhat better than a pally healing.

I dont want our future nukes and dots compare slightly favorably to rangers, I want them to compare slightly unfavorably to wizs and necros.
I dont want our future heals to compare slightly favorably to pallys, I want them to compare slightly unfavorably to clerics.

I like the group heal, I think it will work well for us, I just want it to not look so gimp. Give it SOME kind of edge, even one that is almost never used. Heh, let it cure a couple poison/ disease counters so its more priestlike.



Sliggoth

Gaennen
02-21-2006, 06:31 AM
I expect moonshadow has been pre-balenced against the eventual appearance of stances.


(Incidently in case anyone takes it as such this is not a negative post. I'm looking forward to this spell and think it will be very handy)

Fenier
02-21-2006, 07:51 AM
I am concerned about the precendent of giving us a group heal and pegging it at the pally level, roughly 40 percent (maybe 50, depends on whose arguements you go with) of the cleric spell.

I am going to argue that Moonshadow doesn't set precendent, but follows precendent set via our Renewal Lines as in the situation of gaining a ability until previously not found at all within our class.


Granted a faster recast would VERY seldom be used, it would indicate that our healing is somewhat better than a pally healing.

The spell recycles faster then any Paladin Wave. The Spell Heals for More at a better mana / hp ratio then Wave of Piety. If this does not singal we are better at healing then they are I am not sure what to tell you.


I dont want our future nukes and dots compare slightly favorably to rangers, I want them to compare slightly unfavorably to wizs and necros.

There is no precendant for comparing us to rangers, actually the reverse is true - As we are their Parent Class their spells and abilities are largely defined by what we can do several levels ahead of them.

Our Other spells have always been at least partially balanced against the classes you mentioned. There so far has been no deveation of that and its pointless to argue "what if" until that time does happen.


I dont want our future heals to compare slightly favorably to pallys, I want them to compare slightly unfavorably to clerics.

And they are. All of our 3.75 second heals scale against a cleric's assoicated spell. Our Renewals scale.. loosly against Complete heal. Following the precendant of gaining abilities we do not have previously, Moonshadow follows that logic and is roughly balanced against a mid 50s Cleric Group heal, which all things considered, is where it should be.


I just want it to not look so gimp. Give it SOME kind of edge, even one that is almost never used. Heh, let it cure a couple poison/ disease counters so its more priestlike.

Curing is *not* our strong point. Our AE Heal should not cure, if *anything* at all, Shamans would be the first class to get this as they already have an AE Cure.

That said, the spell has several edges:

1: Better HP / Mana Ratio
2: More HP Healed then Wave of Piety
3: Recast timer of 18 Seconds (12 faster then paladins) and equal to Shamans.

This is not including the fact we can specialize, have more ranks of Adept available to enchance the spell, have more ranks of gift so the spell can critical more often or the fact casting Moonshadow Once heals a Group of people at least 4 times quicker then any of our 3.75 heals x6 - at a much lower mana cost to boot.

Now, you can continue to argue the recast timer (which I agree is slightly long but totally workable) and the amount healed (which I think is fine) all you like, however the current arguements I've seen don't do much to convince me otherwise.

I said back several pages ago I would like someone to come up with an AE that you would need to spam continously to offset. The Only AE I've seen so far was Wings of the Gargoyle, and Kaidman handled that one.

You can argue on paper all you like, but in practice I don't see a great many of these issues ever arising as being the problems they are stressed about here.

-Fenier

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
02-21-2006, 08:52 AM
When the druid CHs were introduced, SOE was still penalizing our heals quite a bit in comparison to cleric heals. When our spells were reevaluated and upgraded to be more in tune with the cleric heals, CH was not because SOE has abandoned the CH lines.

SOE has stated CH was a mistake to introduce into the game. How can you base a rationale on an abandoned spell line?

Fanra
02-21-2006, 09:01 AM
Well, either Absor stopped reading this thread or he doesn't care to comment about wolf form. Probably the latter because there isn't much excuse for the shameful way Sony has screwed it up.

Also, I have never received any response from the many emails to Sony and posts on Sony boards I have made on the subject.

Another class ability of druids watered down to useless. It's no surprise I never see a druid in wolf form anymore or get asked for it from their group. I do sometimes see rangers in wolf form, since they get a single target indoor wolf that actually helps them.

Pretty sad when rangers, the Original Red Headed Step Children of EQ™, are treated better than druids.

Fenlayen
02-21-2006, 09:01 AM
SOE has stated CH was a mistake to introduce into the game. How can you base a rationale on an abandoned spell line?

Just as easily as baseing one on a spell line you never had before. :behindcom

micaa
02-21-2006, 09:28 AM
i would have rather had a Grp Hot just for the simple reason is there isnt any terrific grp heal focuses post oow for druids, and to be casting a spell like that knowing it isnt healing for the max amount it could be will just piss me off, (a fix for this would be a druid class item with focus for this specific spell, maybe tier 2 tunic will have it)

as far as the ward is concernerd, i love the fact that they changed it to a disease cure/ regen ward
screw snare thats what rangers are for 8P

Kaidman
02-21-2006, 11:11 AM
Dragon Health (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6762&source=Live) (50%) Vishi Shoulders (DoN) / Last Blood (Demiplane)
Vampiric Health (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=7847&source=Live) (60%) Band of Broken Vows (Demiplane) / Leather Legs (Demiplane)

Both of these are very nice effects that 'should' work on our group heal. Adept AAs, Gift AAs, and some very high-end focuses work on the group heal. No AAs and no focus would have worked on a group HoT because we don't have the same HoT AAs shaman/clerics get.

Fenier
02-21-2006, 11:15 AM
Just as easily as baseing one on a spell line you never had before. :behindcom

More so then that, at least with my reasoning there is clearly a prescendant for the spell's design, based on what has come before. It doesn't matter which spells we're talking about, because it appears both spells where modified and coded in the same way.

Numbers, for this line of logic - are not important.

What I have *not* seen in 15 pages of discussion is sound logic showing that the heal isn't healing for enough (because no one outside beta has used it, and I've yet to see someone in beta complain about it) or that the recast would prove to restrictive in light of major AEs (which so far we have one example that Kaidman handled).

-Fenier

micaa
02-21-2006, 11:48 AM
Both of these are very nice effects that 'should' work on our group heal. Adept AAs, Gift AAs, and some very high-end focuses work on the group heal. No AAs and no focus would have worked on a group HoT because we don't have the same HoT AAs shaman/clerics get.


Beneficial duration focus would have worked on the Hot i believe

duralupal
02-21-2006, 12:20 PM
Tough to find a bene extender that will catch a 4 tick spell.

mordien
02-21-2006, 01:21 PM
Curing is *not* our strong point. Our AE Heal should not cure, if *anything* at all, Shamans would be the first class to get this as they already have an AE Cure.

Oh nice, they should have made a cure poison/dis mod chance with each pulse of the Shaman Hot. Ok maybe it would be a tad overkill but damn that would have been nice.



That said, the spell has several edges:

1: Better HP / Mana Ratio
2: More HP Healed then Wave of Piety
3: Recast timer of 18 Seconds (12 faster then paladins) and equal to Shamans.

This is not including the fact we can specialize, have more ranks of Adept available to enchance the spell, have more ranks of gift so the spell can critical more often or the fact casting Moonshadow Once heals a Group of people at least 4 times quicker then any of our 3.75 heals x6 - at a much lower mana cost to boot.


Don't forget pallies don't have Gift of Mana either which I can tell you right now I'll pop this spell mostly when GoM comes up.

mordien
02-21-2006, 01:25 PM
Dragon Health (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6762&source=Live) (50%) Vishi Shoulders (DoN) / Last Blood (Demiplane)
Vampiric Health (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=7847&source=Live) (60%) Band of Broken Vows (Demiplane) / Leather Legs (Demiplane)

Both of these are very nice effects that 'should' work on our group heal. Adept AAs, Gift AAs, and some very high-end focuses work on the group heal. No AAs and no focus would have worked on a group HoT because we don't have the same HoT AAs shaman/clerics get.

And even if your in a mid-range guild, you can probably kill the Matriach, curse of blood AA event in DoDh and make a Bazu Aug that has Blessing of the Pious for 40% healing mod to direct and group spells.

Kzar
02-21-2006, 03:11 PM
I am going to argue that Moonshadow doesn't set precendent, but follows precendent set via our Renewal Lines as in the situation of gaining a ability until previously not found at all within our class.

(Long weekend). I still argue, that druids heals should never never never never be balanced against melee heals. We don't measure our weapon damage against theirs, our tanking ability against there's. So to me, any talk of balance with pally heals is a non-starter, unless you plan to give us pally melee/tanking ability?

Second, this spell is still worse then the level 52 cleric heal. Its cleric and shammy spells we should be balanced against. Hell, its like the first group heal clerics get and never use because it sucks for them, yet its still far better then ours. A level 70 druid with a 10k mana pool, should be able to heal better then a 52 cleric with a 6k mana pool.

Third, you kinda contridict yourself, saying this spell would rarely need to be chain casted, and dont see yourself using it more then 2-3 times in a fight, yet its main advantage over the shammy version is because since its a blast heal we can cast it several times.

Fourth.. will address this comment as well

Tough to find a bene extender that will catch a 4 tick spell.

50% duration aa, brings it to 36, which makes it so focus effects work well.
That being said, shammy version, can heal 9 X 600 X 6, around 30k for 1100 mana, which puts ours to shame. Funny, the class with that depends on medding the most, is the one with the most ineffecient heals.

While I agree this is a new ability, and will probably get it, just to use when gom procs when i am blast healing the ae's. Its still a slap in the face. It needs to have the recast to 12s max, mana cost lowered to 800, or the healing upped to 2k. I am sick to death having to med from just healing alone, while other classes can out heal us and have sufficient mana to utilize their every increasing utility.

Fifth, just because its a new ability, doesn't mean it has to suck. Other classes get new abilities that are actually useful, we get this waterdowned pos and everyone is oooohing and awwwwwing over it. The funny this is, we are stuck debating whether or not its marginally better then casting direct heals, then the merits of the spell itself. In a situation where the entire group is taking damage, group heals should be significantly better then blast heals, the fact that we are debating it, means that the group heal falls far short.

Will get to barkspur on the next post...

mordien
02-21-2006, 03:39 PM
(Long weekend).

I still argue, that druids heals should never never never never be balanced against melee heals. We don't measure our weapon damage against theirs, our tanking ability against there's. So to me, any talk of balance with pally heals is a non-starter, unless you plan to give us pally melee/tanking ability?

...

With you 100%



50% duration aa, brings it to 36, which makes it so focus effects work well.
That being said, shammy version, can heal 9 X 600 X 6, around 30k for 1100 mana, which puts ours to shame. Funny, the class with that depends on medding the most, is the one with the most ineffecient heals.
...

Shaman line of HoT have always been more mana Efficient hands down. If we get a direct group heal they are going to get a group hot. Even though the shaman probably won't agree I do think they come out on the better end of the stick since they can cast it on other groups. It has broader utility, but in the end its a HoT thats another buff slot ours is a direct heal. I want to complain about the healing, but until I use it I just can't say.


Fifth, just because its a new ability, doesn't mean it has to suck. Other classes get new abilities that are actually useful, we get this waterdowned pos and everyone is oooohing and awwwwwing over it. The funny this is, we are stuck debating whether or not its marginally better then casting direct heals, then the merits of the spell itself. In a situation where the entire group is taking damage, group heals should be significantly better then blast heals, the fact that we are debating it, means that the group heal falls far short.

Will get to barkspur on the next post...

I don't really know what you expect it to be. It is, what it is. It's something I've needed for a long time. I do the same healing now without it, so with it will only be an improvement to my existing skills. If it turns out to not help me, I won't load it. Wouldn't be the first set of spells from a new expansion I don't load.

Kzar
02-21-2006, 04:28 PM
Anicent Chaos Frost, is 1450 for 290 mana. Its effecinacy is 5.0
Barkspur is 1680 for 300, its 5.6

First off, never do any comparisons to ancients (i learned that the hard way).

Second, that spell is from the god era, which is like several expansions ago.

Third, comparing it to glitterfrost.

Glitterfrost Base spell:1892damage for 381m which is 4.96

Unlike barkspur, focus and crits work on our nukes, and there is no way to extend barkspur past the 8 hits, so lets factor in a middle of the road focus.

A 20% focus (a weak once) gives us a ~10% increase.
1892 + 189 = 2081 damage for 381m which is 5.46.

Lets try it with a decent focus, ~45%, or about a 22.5% increase
1892 + 426 = 2318 damage for 381m which is 6.08

Wow, we are already close to barkspurs effeciency with a low-end focus, add in any decent focus and barkspur already is already beat. We haven't even factored in crits. With max aa, you get a crit rate around 28% of the time.

1892 + 426 + 649 = 2318 damage for 381m which is 7.79

This isn't even factoring the aa which increased the crit damage.

In summary, barkspur falls flat on its face on the effciency test, 5.6 capped! vs 7.8 (which can be upped with better aa/focus) .

Its actually more mana effective then any nuke we get unless the nuke is modified.

Most every druid i have seen has some sort of damage focus for their nukes, there are several easily obtainable. Its statements like this that have me concerned, how can you not compare focuses.... oh boy.

The Damage, unlike the nukes - can not be resisted, not ever. it will always Land for full damage.

Not this myth, having seen your parses, i must say, wow your avoidance/ac must suck, on a decently geared tank in wos, i am sure you would see a big difference.

That being said, there are several ways for this spell not to do full damage, including but not limited to: target dying, mob changing targets, player moving oor while positioning, etc etc. Simple saying its "unresistable" doesn't make it always land.

With that being said, with the crappy 8 hits capped modifier, there is no reason that this spell can't have a 1minute duration. Make it a 6-12s recast, 8 hits max, 1 min duration then a lot of the problems vanish. We need to stop the double capped spells like sotr and now this. I mean shhh, 8 hits would be enough to cap it without adding a 18s duration. Its still not that effecient. If they want to make this spell nice and an upgrade!

Barkspur,
10 hits 250 damage, 1 min duration, 300 mana, 6s recast.

It still doesnt solve the stacking damage issue, but at least it wouldn't be a waste.

Aldier
02-21-2006, 04:59 PM
(Long weekend). I still argue, that druids heals should never never never never be balanced against melee heals. We don't measure our weapon damage against theirs, our tanking ability against there's. So to me, any talk of balance with pally heals is a non-starter, unless you plan to give us pally melee/tanking ability?

The reason this spell is being compared with pally healing is for 1 reason. Paladins ALREADY have group heals. When you get something, you compare it with what other people already have as well as what you have to decide if its worth using.

Third, you kinda contridict yourself, saying this spell would rarely need to be chain casted, and dont see yourself using it more then 2-3 times in a fight, yet its main advantage over the shammy version is because since its a blast heal we can cast it several times.

That is not contradictory at all. Most encounters that have large AEs in which a group heal would be beneficial last, more than 5 minutes. Vish is what, 15-20 min for guilds that have been farming him for a while? 30min when still learning him? And the AE dot from Vish, assuming you cure successfully every OTHER cast of it with RC6, then you would need 1 group heal for each other wave. That is what, once every 2 minutes? That is far from chain casting. This is a long fight in comparison to the other ones I have seen, I am not yet DP flagged guild yet, will let others who raid there chime in on those fights.



50% duration aa, brings it to 36, which makes it so focus effects work well.
That being said, shammy version, can heal 9 X 600 X 6, around 30k for 1100 mana, which puts ours to shame. Funny, the class with that depends on medding the most, is the one with the most ineffecient heals.

No clue where you get the number of 9 ticks for the shaman heal. I think someone earlier mentioned 4 base, 6 with aa, 7 with a focus.

While I agree this is a new ability, and will probably get it, just to use when gom procs when i am blast healing the ae's. Its still a slap in the face. It needs to have the recast to 12s max, mana cost lowered to 800, or the healing upped to 2k. I am sick to death having to med from just healing alone, while other classes can out heal us and have sufficient mana to utilize their every increasing utility.

I think we all agreed a lower recast time would be nice, but its not a deal breaker or a slap in the face. You want the healing upped to 2k yet have no basis for the claim. It is more than likely a safe assumption to make that anyone obtaining this spell has most if not all of thier healing aa and therefore the heal is a 2k heal.


Fifth, just because its a new ability, doesn't mean it has to suck. Other classes get new abilities that are actually useful, we get this waterdowned pos and everyone is oooohing and awwwwwing over it. The funny this is, we are stuck debating whether or not its marginally better then casting direct heals, then the merits of the spell itself. In a situation where the entire group is taking damage, group heals should be significantly better then blast heals, the fact that we are debating it, means that the group heal falls far short.

We are not acting like that. You are just being your over dramatic self whining about how SoE is pulling the wool over our eyes again. We are debating the spell as how it would be used. Someone suggested it was no better than just patch healing like we have been and that is why the comparisons between the single heals and this group heal arose. If you are happy to get this why can't you just be happy and stop trying to belittle the rest of us.

Kzar
02-21-2006, 05:08 PM
I don't really know what you expect it to be. It is, what it is. It's something I've needed for a long time. I do the same healing now without it, so with it will only be an improvement to my existing skills. If it turns out to not help me, I won't load it. Wouldn't be the first set of spells from a new expansion I don't load.

Aside from minor tweak, SOE, tends to adjust class balance through expansions. So i was hoping for something to address our growing gap in healing and dps. A group heal would have been awesome, had it been something really effecient. Druids suffer from lack of effciency and tools to generate mana. Stances are a pipedream and after a year, i have given up hope that 1) they will even be implemented, 2) really help.

Healing Gap - there was a chance we could actually keep a group healed in the more challenging encounters instead of relying on a cleric/shammy/pally to do it. Moonshadow isn't that spell, it will be nice for gom procs, but keeping up a group in high end raids, i don't see it.

Dps gap, we get a potential spell that sucks effeciency wise to a focused nuke and any crit. So instead of something to actually boost our dps, we get something capped 2 ways, time and hits. Nukes we can boost with aa's/focus this we can't. There is no reason to have 2 caps on it, leave the 8 or 10 hits, increase the duration, hell make it an hour duration, it doesn't increase the effeciency and makes sure all hits lands. Or make it last 18s, lower the damage to 150, and take off the max hits. Then the damage scales with the mob hits. Take off 1 of the caps and the spell becomes more usable. Hell look at Wrath of the Wild, 1 hit, 1 ds, 45min duration, is it overpowered? no..

Fenier
02-21-2006, 05:14 PM
Healing Gap - there was a chance we could actually keep a group healed in the more challenging encounters instead of relying on a cleric/shammy/pally to do it. Moonshadow isn't that spell, it will be nice for gom procs, but keeping up a group in high end raids, i don't see it.

You've yet to prove why Moonshadow is not that spell other then the fact your saying its not.

-Fenier

Discanthir
02-21-2006, 05:38 PM
I know I said I wasn't going to post on this thread.... but one more time.
A situation where the 1500 hp heal and the recast time could really become an issue, adds. This is the thing I was going to use this spell for mostly, and I haven't really seen it addressed here.

If there is no aoe that 1500 hp won't fix (which is not why I argue this spell is underpowered anyway) there is your situation where it can become an issue. While I do raid, it is really not that often. If you get an add, maybe two which starts beating on your chanter/cleric/wizzy/whoever, but you are healing the tank and one is going to die before you can get off a second direct heal, which do you choose to save? I have had this happen to me.... gee, I can't count the number of times. I would use a group heal much more often to keep them alive long enough to get the extras mezzed, rooted, offtanked, etc than in a raid setting. There are a lot of mobs out there that are going to be hitting more than Moonshadow will be able to handle before or if CC, slows, whatever are implemented. I know that if I use a group heal it means mobs are probably going to come after me, but hey, isn't that the risk shammies, pallies, and clerics take? Just throwing another log on the fire......

Kzar
02-21-2006, 05:44 PM
The reason this spell is being compared with pally healing is for 1 reason. Paladins ALREADY have group heals. When you get something, you compare it with what other people already have as well as what you have to decide if its worth using.

I guess we have to disagree. Pally = melee, druid = healer, in healing healer > melee, in melee dps, melee > healer. End of Story in my Book.

No clue where you get the number of 9 ticks for the shaman heal. I think someone earlier mentioned 4 base, 6 with aa, 7 with a focus.

Was just something i read, most shammys won't be able to hit 9 ticks, but with max aa/focus should be close. 4normal, 6 with aa, 9 with a 50% focus.

I think we all agreed a lower recast time would be nice, but its not a deal breaker or a slap in the face.

recast alone isn't a deal breaker i agree.

You want the healing upped to 2k yet have no basis for the claim. It is more than likely a safe assumption to make that anyone obtaining this spell has most if not all of thier healing aa and therefore the heal is a 2k heal.

I want the efficiency increased, and since the inane recast is likely to stay I would rather see the heal boosted over mana reduction. The basis I am using is measuring it against the effeciency of the LEVEL 52 Cleric spell (not the pally one, see above). Hell, i will even take 80%, of a level 52 cleric group heal (we are supposed to be able to heal 80% as well as a level 52 cleric don't ya think?) I was factoring in the aa with the 2k base. 2k base should put it at about 2500-2600, which we give us a boost and be able to heal a 1/4 of a 10k toon. Minus the healing boost, a mana reduction give it a clear benefit to using when more then 3 of the group need healing.

We are not acting like that. You are just being your over dramatic self whining about how SoE is pulling the wool over our eyes again. We are debating the spell as how it would be used.

Shrug, when we are comparing heals to melee characters, and our new dps spell to unfocused ancients from 3+ expansions ago.

Let's put it this way,
1) Compared to the other healing classes, would you agree or disagree that there is a healing effeciency gap? Does this spell increase/decrease/no change affect this gap?

My answer, yes there is a gap, this makes the gap wider, its less effecienct the the level 52 cleric spell, even less then 80% of it. Less effecient then the shammy version as well.

2) Compared to other spell casting dps classes (including clerics/shammys/druids) is there a gap, and does this spell do anything to bridge the gap.

My answer, yes there is a gap, and this spell is less efficient then a focused level 70 nuke, even though its "unresistable". It does address dps on mobs that are totally fr and cr, yet since its not stackable, the 2nd druid is sol unless you develop a rotation. Barkspur, doesn't increase our dps or dpm.

Someone suggested it was no better than just patch healing like we have been and that is why the comparisons between the single heals and this group heal arose.

The jury's still out of this. It still might be better to patch then to rely on this spell. If 3 people in the group take a lot of damage, and 3 resist the ae, patching still may be a better option.

If you are happy to get this why can't you just be happy and stop trying to belittle the rest of us.

I am happy to get a group heal, i am unhappy on how poor it is. Its like wanting a toy for christmas, and getting a low quality generic version that breaks when you play with it. I want a group heal that rocks, and allows me to keep up a group without having to rely on a shammy or pally. If soe doesn't want to make us a true healing class, fine, at least give us great dps to make up for it.

My desire would be for druids to be a solid class, instead of 3rd rate healing with heals balanced on melee, and 5th rate dps class with no utility.
For druids to be welcome on raids and be productive, instead of wishing for a 12th cleric instead of a 2nd druid. We lost our utility, we losing our healing, and we are marginal dps.

Kzar
02-21-2006, 06:27 PM
You've yet to prove why Moonshadow is not that spell other then the fact your saying its not.

Ghost of Renewal
Max healing: 630 X 6people X 7 tics (we will use yours) = 26460
(though the shammy can crit there hots i believe)
Mana 1260
Healing/Mana = 21hp/m
Healing/24secs (4.5s+2.25s+18s recast, ~4tics) = 2520hp

Moonshadow
Max healing: 2000k X 6 = 13200
(not counting crits, should cancel with shammy hot crits)
Mana 1100
Healing/Mana = 10.9hp/m
Healing/24secs (4.5s+2.25s+18s recast, ~4tics) = 2000hp

So over the course of 24s, shammy hot heals 2400 each person, while ours heals 2000. Now lets look at when we need to spam our new group heal, 2 casts!

2 casts of Moonshadow, 2200 mana, 4k healed to each party a minimum of 48seconds.

1 cast of ghost of renewal, 1260 mana, 4410hp healed to each member over 42 seconds, 48 giving 1 tic for it to start working.

So basically, the shammy hot heals as much as our blast heal over the course of the fight for 1/2 the mana. The only advantage is its a direct heal that can't be dispelled.

Level 52 Cleric Spell Word of Vigor
-- lets assume no aa/no focus, worse then a bazaar gear cleric
Max healing 1233 X 6 = 7398
Mana: 651
Healing/Mana = 11.36hp/m, hmmm 80% = 9.01 hp/m
Healing/24secs (4.5s+2.25s) X 3 = 3699hp

I was wrong on one point, we heal about 90% the effeciency of a level 52 no aa/no focus cleric.. Ok let's recap!

Effeciency
----------
Level 70 Shammy = 21.0 hp/m
Level 52 Cleric (no aa/focus) = 11.4 hp/m
Level 70 Druid (max aa/focus)= 10.9 hp/m

Max Healing Over 24s (with just this 1 spell)
-----------------------------------------
Level 52 Cleric (no aa/focus) = 3699hp / person
Level 70 Shammy = 2520hp / person
Level 70 Druid = 2000hp / person

Aldier
02-21-2006, 07:31 PM
You can't compare the efficiency of a HoT to a direct heal.

Noken
02-21-2006, 08:11 PM
And you can't compare Moonshadow with AAs to word of vigor without. To me Moonshadow is still like serpent vines - hard to judge the value of until you see it, but I am very much in agreement these spells are prity weak.

To add 1 thing, if GoM doesn't go off from Barkspur (basing it on no other damage shield triggers GoM) than there's prity much no chance of me using it - maybe if it was 800 mana for 4800 damage I'd use it because of GoM - but for 300 mana it's useless there too.

It's funny to think druids require the most variety of focus of any class to be at our best, and have all the AA, yet there's few ways the spells we get could benefit less from having them. Good job considering that SoE.

Discanthir
02-21-2006, 08:35 PM
You can't compare the efficiency of a HoT to a direct heal.

But he did....

If you really wanted to you could even compare a heal to a dot. Watch this. Assuming no AAs or foci are involved... and I don't really care if most players have these, I am going off base spell efficiency. If you think that is not right, ok, do this comparison again including AAs and foci. I don't feel like doing that math right now.

Wasp Swarm, 289 damage a tic lasting 9 tics for 454 mana. Total hit points adjusted is 2601. That is a 5.7 hp change per point of mana.
Ancient Chlorobon heals 3094 hp for 723 mana. Total hitpoints adjusted is 3094. That is a 4.3 hp change per point of mana.
So, we can say that based off adjusted hitpoints per point of mana Wasp Swarm uses mana more efficiently, which is not suprising. What druid didn't know dots are more efficient spells than heals? There, comparison made.

I think you are limiting comparisions to much less than the definition of the word. There is no reason to not compare the efficiency of a direct heal with a heal over time.

Whew, how many more times do you think I could put a form of the word efficient in there before my head explodes? }: P

Dindail
02-21-2006, 09:33 PM
Moonshadow
Max healing: 2000k X 6 = 13200
(not counting crits, should cancel with shammy hot crits)
Mana 1100
Healing/Mana = 10.9hp/m
Healing/24secs (4.5s+2.25s+18s recast, ~4tics) = 2000hp

Thou, I like the arguement you are making, these numbers are invalid.

You are trying to make the comparrison vs. the Shaman HoT, but you dont have the focus effects and aa's right. Yes Shaman HoT's can crit, so that number is off, and Druid healing adept = 28%, plus item heal focus 60% max = 88%. Therefore the max moonshadow on 1 person would be 2,820 max focused. Then you have to factor in the 25% crit rate, from healing gift + DoN aa...

You also added in spell gem refresh timer for both the heals, but the recast timer exceeds that number, and makes it a non factor in the total recast time.

Its complicated, and I dont really have the time right now to add, the Shaman heal, but I think its still better when they are maxed focused.

Kzar
02-21-2006, 09:47 PM
You can't compare the efficiency of a HoT to a direct heal.

I disagree. While some comparisons are harder, the fact is both heals and hots heal hp. Its harder to compare blast heals vs hots, because there is hps concerns. The fact that moonshadow is capped at ~22-24secs makes it easier. Moonshadow can't heal more then 2k / 24s (unless crits of course). You can't cast it faster. So if a hot takes 24s to heal the same amount for half the mana, there's your comparison. Think of it this way..

Group of 6k hp peeps, all of them take 2k ae damage every 24s. Just using moonshadow/ghost, how

Moonshadow
Time Hp
0s 4000/6000
6s 6000/6000
12s 6000/6000
18s 6000/6000
24s 4000/6000
30s 6000/6000
36s 6000/6000
42s 6000/6000

Moonshadow 2 casts = 2200 mana, group healed np
Moonshadow
Time Hp
0s 4000/6000
6s 4630/6000
12s 5260/6000
18s 5890/6000
24s 4630/6000
30s 5260/6000
36s 5260/6000
42s 5890/6000

1 cast of ghost to heal the same ae.. You might argue, that moonshadow has a much greater hps then ghost, it sure looks that way. The problem is, you need to factor in recast into the equation. The measure of HPS is how fast you can chain the spell so recast plays a huge factor.

Aldier
02-21-2006, 09:57 PM
Let me rephrase that.

You cannot compare the efficiency of a direct heal to an HoT and expect the direct heal to keep up. The whole point of an HoT is to be more efficient. Look at cleric and shaman spells from previous expansions. The HoTs are much more efficient. So why are you suprised that Ghost is more efficient than Moonshadow? Why are you suprised that the druid group heal, druids being a priest class is better than the pally group heal, pallies being a melee. I do not understand what your beef is.

Kzar
02-21-2006, 10:02 PM
You are trying to make the comparrison vs. the Shaman HoT, but you dont have the focus effects and aa's right. Yes Shaman HoT's can crit, so that number is off, and Druid healing adept = 28%, plus item heal focus 60% max = 88%.

a 60% focus, increases heals from 1-60%, so in affect a 30% average increase. Where are you getting the 60% focus from, the healing focus from COA tier 2 boots is 45%, which averages to 22.5%

So 1500 + 420 (0.28 * 1500) + 338(0.225 * 1500) = 2258.

So max aa + coa level focus leads to a max of 2258.

Punch that in the above...
Max Healing 2258 X 6 = 13548 / 1100m = 12.31hp/m

The good news is this puts a level 70 druid with max healing adept aa and coa level focus, a bit above a level 52 no aa, no focus cleric... Go Druids!

Kzar
02-21-2006, 10:09 PM
You cannot compare the efficiency of a direct heal to an HoT and expect the direct heal to keep up. The whole point of an HoT is to be more efficient. Look at cleric and shaman spells from previous expansions. The HoTs are much more efficient. So why are you suprised that Ghost is more efficient than Moonshadow? Why are you suprised that the druid group heal, druids being a priest class is better than the pally group heal, pallies being a melee. I do not understand what your beef is.

I am not comparing pally group heals to healers. Pally's are melee, I don't compare melee healing and healer healing. In no way should our heals be balanced with a melee class. period. I just compare our heals to the other 2 healing classes and it falls far short.

My beef is they keep giving the effecient heals to those classes they don't need them as much. Which class in your opionion would need the more effecient heals, the one with a ft6 self buff, or the ft150 one. I would like our heals to be effecient enough that i can add this so called utility we still have left, or be able to contribute to dps while healing, and not be stuck medding slowing down the group. A shammy can heal as well as us, buff better then us, slow, root better (omg vp owns), regen mana faster, dot as well as we can. etc etc.

elty
02-22-2006, 01:09 AM
Please, look at how SOE set the new spell:

Ghost of Renewal is a group version of Breath or Trusher, a lv 65 spell in GoD. It cost 3x more mana comapre to the single target version. Seems fair enough

When is the last time Druid heal for only 1500? Nature's Touch, a lv 60 spell that heal 1491, back in Luclin era. Please dont forget the power jump between 60 and 65 is probably the highest among each expansion.

You just cant use different base to make a new spell, and call it balance. A better Moonshadow will be a group version of Sylvan infusion (also a lv 65 GoD spell, heal around 2400), that cost around 1800 mana. Slightly more efficient, but heal much better.

Also, dont forget the recast is irrelevant for Ghost, because the spell will be up during the grey out anyways.

And FYI, Word of Vivi is similar to group version of Holy Light, but only cost 2x amount of mana. So Cleric still ahs a huge advantage in healing efficiency.

dorda
02-22-2006, 05:06 AM
hello again =) .. didnt have time to read all the thread ...

but as of myself, i am pretty convinced all 3 spells we get are pretty much useless for me (soloing/grouping druid) or very situational in the best case. Nothing to waste a spell gem for. Nothing yet convinced me of the contrary.

Dindail
02-22-2006, 06:28 AM
Kazar you missed healing Adept, its a fixed 28% increase, and 60% is max as I stated, yes 30% average.

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=7847&source=Live

Fenier
02-22-2006, 07:31 AM
hello again =) .. didnt have time to read all the thread ...

but as of myself, i am pretty convinced all 3 spells we get are pretty much useless for me (soloing/grouping druid) or very situational in the best case. Nothing to waste a spell gem for. Nothing yet convinced me of the contrary.

The Part I highlighted in Bold more or less eliminates any chance of convincing you otherwise, doesn't it?

-Fenier

Fenier
02-22-2006, 08:19 AM
When is the last time Druid heal for only 1500? Nature's Touch, a lv 60 spell that heal 1491, back in Luclin era. Please dont forget the power jump between 60 and 65 is probably the highest among each expansion.


If you want to get exact.

Nature;s Touch orginally healed just under 1k and Nature's Infusion was the best spell out ther ebecuase it healed around 1500 before adjustment last year to being 2050.

-Fenier

dorda
02-22-2006, 08:38 AM
Second:

You hardly ever, ever want to root a mob in camp. Rooting a mpb changes the aggro from hate list to proximity and totally would get people killing in a good many instances in some of the newer content because your average dps/caster is not going to be able to take 1500-2k rounds.

-Fenier

WHY WHY WHY WHY
Aggro rules have to change on rooted mobs?
WHY WHY WHY WHY
Has that root-killing game behavior been kept???

I'd say CHANGE that!!!

1) From a gameplay perspective, I dont see ANY reason why root should do anything else than altering mob mobility.
2) I only see yet another example of lame coding, as that behavior is just easier to code. When a mob is rooted it should pick then FIRST target in aggro list (starting from highest aggro) that is melee reachable, not just get all players, sort by distance and pick the minimum range target. its EASY!

Fenier
02-22-2006, 08:40 AM
sort by distance and pick the minimum range target. its EASY!

That what it does. That is what Proximity is. Who ever is closest is going ot get hit.

.....

-Fenier

dorda
02-22-2006, 08:42 AM
The Part I highlighted in Bold more or less eliminates any chance of convincing you otherwise, doesn't it?
-Fenier
No it just states that nothing i read till now convinced me otherwise..
Likelihood goes down the more i read the thread..

dorda
02-22-2006, 08:45 AM
That what it does. That is what Proximity is. Who ever is closest is going ot get hit.

.....

-Fenier
Yes I know Fenier.. Its lame coding! .. SOE please change that to selelect first item in aggro list melee reachable please!
I see NO gameplay reason why root should mess up aggro.

Fenier
02-22-2006, 08:47 AM
Yes .. lame coding! .. SOE change that!

Pretty sure its been that way 7 years now.

I wouldn't count on it.

this has nothing at all to do with PoR spells which went live yesterday, I suggest an Unkempt Thread.

-Fenier

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
02-22-2006, 08:47 AM
Well, 2/3s or more is just repeating the same thing.


Most of us are happy to finally have a group heal.


Some of us feel it will be too weak for the content in which we raid.


Others feel it should be too weak as clerics and pallies have always been the only class with group heals, and SOE should never give out a class ability to another class without penalizing it. Neither side will ever agree with the other.


There hasn't really been all that much discussion about Barkspur or the Auras.


The PoR spells really are not much use for a soloing druid. I'm not about to tank mobs that would give good exp, so Barkspur would be useless. I'd think most mobs suitable for druid melee would be farming, not exp mobs. So it might have a place for the solo farmer.

Debateable whether I'd use Aura of Life instead of Oaken Vigor. Aura of Life is 30 minutes, Oaken Vigor is base 21. Oaken Vigor is 29 minutes for me, I don't know if Aura of Life is affected by extended durations. Oaken Vigor is less mana though, so if the duration is the same on both, it's a bit more cost effective to stick with Oaken Vigor as both regen 60 HP/tick. It remains to be seen whether the regen will be changed and Aura of Life allowed to stack with our regen.

Then too, I don't really see regens being all that useful against real soloing mobs. If most of us are hit, we're dead.

Moonshadow is completely worthless to a solo druid.


The spells are situational for a grouping druid. I'm not going to have Moonshadow mem'd in a group. I just don't have the room. It can't be swapped out when needed because of the recast/mem time. So I have the same complaint with swapping that the shaman have with their HoT.

I'd mem debuffs over Barkspur. Nor would I mem Barkspur instead of a nuke or DoT. If the mob is highly resistant to nukes, I'd DoT instead.

Aura of Life frees up a buff slot if used instead of Blessing of Oak. Situational whether that makes it useful in a group.


Both Moonshadow and Aura of Life will have raid use. They will make a difference in a druid's ability to keep the group alive. But ultimately, those of us who lose group members to AoEs will still lose them. It just should take a few minutes longer before we do.