View Full Forums : Balance


Dayuna
02-21-2006, 11:32 PM
There's several things I'd like to discuss with the druid community about that word. First of all, what it means in regard to Everquest.

I'll start by saying what balance is not. Balance is not class equilibrium. Balance is not "every character is equally in demand." Balance defines what classes should be. Balance defines what should be most viable in a given situation. These are very broad statements and I realize I've yet to provide evidence for any of it, bear with me.

Balance in regards to druids and other classes is not about us being equal. It is about us being proportional. For example, druid nukes compared to the same level/locale nukes of a mage reveals an 85% relationship. In heals comparable heals to a cleric, there's also a relationship, of 80% for comparable spells. Exact comparisons to prove those %s are able to be located elsewhere on these forums. My point is, that the balance is there in the proportions and not in straight equality between classes.

Balance in regards to druids has thrown more than a few debates into a dps-druid vs. healer-druid. I would like to contend that there is no such thing as a dps-druid or a healer-druid. The balance of the two is what makes a druid a druid. WoW is a far better game to make such distinctions in with the talent trees and specializations. Every druid in Everquest that is equal in AAs and gear is equally about healing and dps. There are those who would contend that they enjoy nuking or healing more, but honestly, the spells are still there to do the not-as-enjoyed function. The best druid is the one who can dps and still know when the time is right for a heal, or the other way around.

Balance in regards to content is a game that many druids are apt to have opinions on. Druids who prefer healing over nuking are largely concerned with mob damage output and ways of countering it. Druids who revel in their ways of maximizing dps are more concerned with debuffing and damage output from spells. All I can say is that as far as one-group content goes, there is a druid who has healed for it somewhere out there, there's another druid who has been better than dead last as far as group member's dps is. For raid content, I have a screenshot of a guild druid's AA bear pet with a killshot on a demiplane raid mob, I also know as a fact that druids are the deciding heal to decide whether a tank lives or dies to a damage spike on a frequent basis. On the other end of the spectrum, a capable soloing druid can do well in many places from greater faydark to the hive. Druids are not viable in some situations as well, for example extreme damage output raid mobs require clerics, large amounts group curing, and tanking. This is the balance against content, there is much that a druid can do against all forms of content, however there are also limits.

There are precious few who understand the complete balance of the game, limited largely to developers and designers. This is not my claim to be one of them, for I know very little outside of the druid class. This is conjecure from as objective of a standpoint as I can make based on observation of the game. Whether you agree or not is up to you to decide, but I thank you for your time and consideration regardless of your views.

edit: took out the line people seem to want to argue over

Fanra
02-22-2006, 07:53 AM
I agree with you completely.

Especially:

I question the class re-envisionment's decision to attempt supporting the division of the class into it's two most distinctive roles, as the only truly necessary stance is the one we are in right now, without stances.

But why is your post in the Unkempt Druids section instead of the Main General forum so everyone can read it?

Did you place it here or did the board mods move it here in an attempt to marginalize your statement?

Balance isn't about "X class is more powerful than my class and that is wrong". Balance is about every class being useful in some way and being able to play in the content that their level / AAs / skill should allow them to.

Menien Mayhem
02-22-2006, 10:14 AM
It's simple. We are the jack of all trades. Always have been. Always will be.

Kamion
02-22-2006, 10:42 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what I got out of it:

"Stances will push us into a linear role at any given time."

I disagree with that being a bad thing. +25% to healing? +25% to dps? Awesome! You don't have to be using one of the other at given times (if it is implimented. In fact, I'm sure I'ld be in normal stance 90% of the time. On long fights I'ld use healing stance so I could use Ni in place of ancient to save mana. In groups (with a decent cleric) and on trivial raids i'ld use dps stance - 1/2 of an ancient heal with 50-60% foci on is still enough of a heal for most bridge heals.

I also think you couldn't have a choose a worst time to post this (post-DoDH.) With reptile being a buff, dps stance would straight up kick ass for grouping situations.

Dayuna
02-22-2006, 11:41 AM
I put it here because I anticipated potential heated debate in an effort to save the mods some trouble. I did not post that to be a rant against stances, Kaimon. I just included that part because it related to the dps vs. healing thing. Whether the stances go live or not is entirely up to Sony and nothing we post here will change the decision made by those designing the game.

mordien
02-22-2006, 03:20 PM
Why don't we have our own list, un moderated by SoE or am I just missing it?

First off, these "balance" lists or ideas are never balanced vs all the other classes. EVERY class thinks they are the red headed stepchild of EQ if your read their boards and there are somethings SoE will never do and you know so don't bother saying them.

My 2 cents on the druid balance based off of the "Class Issues druid list" on the soe forums:

HEALING

Druid and Shaman should really get together on healing. Even though its probably impossible, having 4 class representatives (would definately need 2 raid and 2 non raid types) from druids, shaman and clerics, 12 total, work together to generate a viable path for all 3 of our healing progression would really make worlds of difference. Independently we all just sound like screaming children who want want want, working together and reaching a comprimise that at least has the suedo blessing of all 3 classes would be hard to ignore on Sony's part. This old 75-80% that always gets pulled out is hardly worth the time, I know they don't listen to it.

DPS

Thats a tough one, because the more healing we get the less nukes we are going to get. Stances is the only real option I see that allows our dps to increase while allowing us to gain in healing power.

DEBUFFS

Sure a ice line of debuffs that didn't stack with the fire line would be nice and add to the 4-5 mobs per expansion that are fire resistant.

PERCENTAGE DEBUFFS

NO NO and NO. Look at what they did to shaman/enc slow. Same thing will happen here they will make mobs that partial resist just to counter balance. Maybe the overall atk debuff will be larger but by the time they partial resist it you will have less fire/ice debuff in the end then you would have had with the normal spell.


EVERYTHING ELSE.

Shapeshifting, run speed, charm, lower level call of the wild, etc...

Just meaningless nonsense.

I don't need to look like anything else, its fun yes but not functional.

Run speed doesn't mean much to me either, shaman have the same dinky think listed in their top 10 list on the shaman boards.

Charm = perma nerfed, we all know it, it's not worth worring about.

Move call of the wild to a lower lvl, sure why not. It doens't do much to game balance either way.

Woodelfous
02-23-2006, 12:45 PM
hermaphrodite



There's several things I'd like to discuss with the druid community about that word.

Rainne
02-23-2006, 02:44 PM
Well spoke Dayuna.

A number of people here seem to want it all and hen peck anyone else who thinks otherwise. I tend to ignore this site because of it but I'm glad I'm not alone in my thinking.

Stances will never work because you get your cake and eat it too. If it was a permanent switch (like a spec choice in WoW), I think it would a good plan. A druid that is 25% better at healing at a loss of 25% DPS forever. However, I think most druids would stay neutral because druids like doing both as best we can.

Madie of Wind Riders
02-23-2006, 03:08 PM
hermaphrodite



There's several things I'd like to discuss with the druid community about that word.

That doesnt surprise me, given your Avatar is a female and your Signature is male :shuffle:

mordien
02-23-2006, 03:52 PM
Well spoke Dayuna.

A number of people here seem to want it all and hen peck anyone else who thinks otherwise. I tend to ignore this site because of it but I'm glad I'm not alone in my thinking.

Stances will never work because you get your cake and eat it too. If it was a permanent switch (like a spec choice in WoW), I think it would a good plan. A druid that is 25% better at healing at a loss of 25% DPS forever. However, I think most druids would stay neutral because druids like doing both as best we can.

Not sure that really fits under hen pecking, but I get the meaning. I can't say myself the current druid situation from MY POINT OF VIEW is that bad, although I know a few others from the boards that are up in arms about it. My biggest problems is that on raids I'm a healer 90% of the time, out of raid time I'm DPS 75% of the time. Those 2 sides of my EQ life conflict.

From what you've said:

I've often wondered if they would just come out and make us choose, but I still really doubt it. We already make that choice via our class specialization IMO which affects our mana efficiency. Not that it's impossible, they could easily split the druid class into 2 'types' specialized druid classes with their own innate modifiers.

Stances:

I can't speak for the balance or inbalance stances would cause, but the mechanics of the actual code is already someting they can do. EX. Shadow of the Dawn & Fire of the Dawn ( I think those are the correct names) from Dawnstrike. Although I would hate to give up a buff slot, technically they could make a Buff that focused your nukes by X% for X time and decreased healing spells by X% for X amount of time or the reverse.


I'm really at a loss myself to tell the truth on what else could be done. Maybe thats just b/c I haven't heard a better idea yet, but I know they can't upgrade us both healing and DPS wise at a rate that everyone or most everyone would be happy with.

stratofortress
02-24-2006, 12:33 PM
Here we go again...

Maybe we could get FOR STANCES and AGAINST STANCES tags on our DG user name - would save repeating the same debate for the 100th time.

<-- For Stances

Dayuna
02-24-2006, 06:29 PM
Or people can stop mis-interpreting a single sentence out of a whole set of paragraphs and taking it as something akin to a personal insult. In fact to make it easier on everybody, I'm editing that line.

stratofortress
02-24-2006, 08:38 PM
Or stop worrying about balance at all when you play a utility class that can do a ton of different stuff good, but nothing really really greet... with it depending a lot on gear/AA, but more importantly on the player's ability to get every mile out of the Druid abilities.

Fenier
02-24-2006, 08:47 PM
Or stop worrying about balance at all when you play a utility class that can do a ton of different stuff good, but nothing really really great... with it depending a lot on gear/AA, but more importantly on the player's ability to get every mile out of the Druid abilities.

I love People who understand the Bolded statement.

We do not require 3.2k Nukes, 7k Complete Heal Spells or 1.75 Quick Heals to make us what we are. Our spells offer us nearly unmatched flexability, and I wouldn't be willing to trade that in order to keep some ratio on one side or the other of our abilties because we are not merely a combo of two classes.

-Fenier

Alaene
02-24-2006, 09:28 PM
I love People who understand the Bolded statement.

We do not require 3.2k Nukes, 7k Complete Heal Spells or 1.75 Quick Heals to make us what we are. Our spells offer us nearly unmatched flexability, and I wouldn't be willing to trade that in order to keep some ratio on one side or the other of our abilties because we are not merely a combo of two classes.

-Fenier

That's not the argument, though. I agree with you, we don't need that stuff. The question isn't whether we need it. Or whether we want it. The question is whether the ideal of "balance" between the classes requires us to be scaled to those or other levels.

stratofortress
02-24-2006, 10:42 PM
This is a game with "core" classes and one with "peripheral" classes... accept you play a really fun peripheral class and EQ life is good.

Thats not a comment to deny the need for solid discussion on improvements and tweaks, just a little touchy-feely comment for the Unkempt thread section.

Erianaiel
02-25-2006, 05:25 AM
That's not the argument, though. I agree with you, we don't need that stuff. The question isn't whether we need it. Or whether we want it. The question is whether the ideal of "balance" between the classes requires us to be scaled to those or other levels.


*shrugs*

The way I see it it is important for the game (and the other players) that druids and shamen can heal equally well to a cleric. It is just a matter of numbers: every group going to serious zones pretty much need a healer of sorts. That is one in every six players. Since not every group can have a cleric the druids and shamen need to be able to pitch in or players will be waiting until one of those rare clerics shows up.
Now Sony is kind enough to admit that just about every druid will agree that even if they do heal most of the time, they do not have a desire to -be- a cleric (and there are a great many who prefer to heal as little as possible).
Stances are a way out of that dilemma. It allows druids to become (limited) clerics (almost) on par as far as efficiency and ability goes (if we ignore complete heals) without -forcing- them in the role. They can still fill several roles as the team requires, but if operating at specialist levels they will lose some of that flexibility for the duration.
Remember, Sony could also have ignored us, or decided to do away with the druid class entirely and given each of us the choice only once to be either a cleric or a wizard.Personally I like the idea of stances a lot better than most other things Sony could have come up with, and I have yet to hear a better suggestion here or on the official boards.


Eri

Fanra
02-25-2006, 06:22 PM
Remember, Sony could also have ignored us, or decided to do away with the druid class entirely and given each of us the choice only once to be either a cleric or a wizard.
Translation, even if it sucks, take it, be happy and shut up. We here at Sony have come down from Mount Olympus to help you druids by removing your flexibility in exchange for you being able to do what you should be able to do without stances. If you don't like it, remember we could have just left you crappy rather than give you this crap stolen from WoW that forces you to change your playing style to keep up with new content.

(Not picking on you personally, just using sarcasm to make my point :)
Personally I like the idea of stances a lot better than most other things Sony could have come up with, and I have yet to hear a better suggestion here or on the official boards.
I guess you managed to not notice the hundreds of better suggestions that have been posted here over the past two years or so.

Alei
02-27-2006, 02:20 AM
Balance? Hmm, here's what I have to say about "balance"!

I have fun with my Druid. So it took a lot of work to get her where she is now... So what? Those were goals and achievements that I am proud of. I've learned a lot along the way and I've proven myself to be a good Druid. Do I spoil my game time wishing I could heal like a Cleric, nuke like a Wizard and DoT like a Necromancer all at the same time? Hell no. I don't compare myself to something I'm not ever going to be. Just 'cause we have heals doesn't mean we were meant to heal like a Cleric and so on.. I accept that there are some things I won't be able to heal as well/efficiently and that Clerics are more desired as MH'ers. I don't want to be a Cleric. When I'm on an alt, I am wishing I was on my Druid, because my Druid can handle and adapt to most any situation that comes up.

Someone's almost dead-- Conv of Spirits, Patch heal, KR
The sh!t hit the fan-- Evac/Exodus
Mob is going to gate-- Epic, Nuke like hell, Stun if it works
Running too slow-- SoE
Need Invis-- Shared Camo/Innate Camo
Mobs need gimping-- Debuff
Need some edge-- Damage shield
Mob is going to tuck tail and run-- Snare
Have to travel-- Port
Need buffs/resists-- Spellbook!
Need DPS-- Nukes, DoTs, Melee, Bear (AA), Lion Str.
Need a little CC-- Root
And anything else I might be forgetting...


Is there any other class that can do all of this as EASILY as we can? There may be classes that can do SOME of that better, but that is their PURPOSE. That's the point of their class. Go ahead and fight for better heals or DPS, compare us to other classes or quit EQ for all I care. I, for one, am happy being a Druid.. as is! :smile5:

Winenose
02-27-2006, 06:04 AM
I don't read unkempt forum a lot.. But I think we've run out of people to argue with.

Rainne
02-27-2006, 10:42 AM
I didn't mean to derail this thread to another stances go-nowhere thing. It just seems that the only talk about changes to the Druid class (as was promised along with all the other classes) was this stances thing which we needed because we can't do "such and such". So any balance to come would be some sort of stances options. I hope it never happens and knowing SOE, Duke Nukem Forever will come out before do.

I'll stop saying the word stances now and forever.

I've never thought the druid class was out of whack or needed improvement because another class does something better. If a raid can't be done because there are 3 clerics and 8 druids and the druids can't heal as well doesn't mean druids need their healing improved. It means a lot more people enjoy playing a druid! Fix the content or make clerics more desirable to play (2 of those 3 raid clerics are probably bots). And while our DPS isn't at the top, we're above average and with the plentiful druids on raids can dogpile nicely.

Nimchip
02-27-2006, 02:10 PM
I don't read unkempt forum a lot.. But I think we've run out of people to argue with.

I agree.
Think they are all in the EQLive druid boards :\