View Full Forums : Reptile~ why?


mordien
03-13-2006, 02:26 PM
ON RAIDS, group wise I use the spell already.

I keep seeing guild require this spell, why? It's situtationally useful I guess, but where is the, "must have for raiding" quality of this spell? I've posted before trying to be open minded and find uses for this spell but outside of grouping where I'm main healing it seems a waste of mana.

Possible uses..

1) RT - Our RTs use the DA proc hammer so nothing there. (or does it proc through DA?)

2) MT - Keep it up on the MT? Buff management is such a hassle for MT's. Maybe I'll start forcing the MT to free up a spot for it.

3) OT - I don't think there are any Mez Tanking fights in the content I'm doing now. Co9 our pallies offtank so I get to use it here, haven't tried queen Sendaii (sp) too many times but I imagine here would be another good place with all the adds.

Most raids (Don/vish, CoA, DoDh "trials") I can think of this spell is marginally useful with Co9 being the best place I've found to use it. What encounters is this spell that great for, or is that some secret strat for Dodh I'm missing?

Netura
03-13-2006, 05:19 PM
Its much more than marginally useful on events like Vishimtar and Sendaii.

Juniper
03-13-2006, 05:54 PM
I'm having a hard time thinking of a place where I would /not/ use Reptile, actually.

Dayuna
03-13-2006, 06:40 PM
It's a really mana intensive spell so keeping it on in addition to casting other assorted heals, nukes, debuffs, etc... it becomes unsustainable. It does have some uses in raid application. Any time that a raid would want to minimize initial aggro like the start of the Hate MPG trial for example would be a good place to toss it on. Using it correctly could take the bite out of the initial instability without any aggro for the druid. Beyond times when you're looking to minimize heal aggro I don't see a lot of use for it on raids. It's far more useful in single group content where the hits aren't as big (bigger hits = less % damage negated).

Nimchip
03-13-2006, 08:28 PM
In Assent we like to announce who's doing it on the MT so as to avoid any unnecesary mana waste. Every bit of healing helps out in the end so might as well use it.

I usually do it on the OTs I'm assigned to as well. Especially SKs, god they are awesome with it on.

Netura
03-13-2006, 08:32 PM
Actually, on any raid that I use it on, I am able to sustain it nearly indefinately. Just be smart with gift of mana proc usage.

Hardeeman
03-13-2006, 09:34 PM
I find Reptile is very useful on raids no matter the content. Granted the 600-1200 heal may not seem liek much on a 3-5k hitting mob. Take into account it's used more as an added mitigation of incoming damage and stacks with all heal over time spells. You won't notice this much on MT on raids as much as you would in say an RSS or similar area grp wise. It is very helpful on ramp tanks and such on raids as well. It isn't meant to replace healing at all which it seems like you are wanting it to do. It is a beneficial spell used to help mitigate dmg to the tanks and hopefully grant them that much needed extra second of survival if it happens to come to it.

Dayuna
03-14-2006, 11:10 AM
Actually, on any raid that I use it on, I am able to sustain it nearly indefinately. Just be smart with gift of mana proc usage.
If gift of mana would proc on my heals... =*(

Tuppet
03-14-2006, 12:23 PM
the thread chain (http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?t=13265&highlight=reptile) sold me here. I think it was this thread (http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?t=1680) at the crucible that sold me; where one cast of reptile proc'd 11 times - which is 6600 hp's. and that's on a warrior without any crit heal AA's.

i think it helps with damage spikes and buys the tank time for others to pull any adds off him.

Aelfin
03-14-2006, 01:54 PM
be careful thinking this is total non-aggro. that is not true. i have had cases with tanks pulling and the resulting train where a mob *does* aggro me simply for casting it on the tank. sendaii comes to mind.

mordien
03-14-2006, 02:06 PM
I read 2/3 of that shaman board thread and god is it long and boring and full of circular arguments and a healthy dose of :bs: . Yet I still read most of it.. go figure.

Kzar
03-14-2006, 06:03 PM
I use reptile quite a bit.. The trick i found is use the level 65 god fire nuke til i get a gom proc, then hit reptile. ;) Nothing fancy.. 750 mana is a bit excessive...

Kamion
03-14-2006, 08:32 PM
Tell the warrior it's good aggro (which it is) and they'll keep it

Sildan
03-15-2006, 12:27 AM
Possible uses..

1) RT - Our RTs use the DA proc hammer so nothing there. (or does it proc through DA?)

This is one place I consider Reptile an utter waste of mana. Rampage is not steady damage. its a pop here and a pop there. Considering that reptile is a proc, it is not an efficient spell to use against rampage. it will proc way to rarely to be of benefit. The spell is at its best when your being qaudded by an unslowed mob.

Juniper
03-15-2006, 05:38 AM
I read 2/3 of that shaman board thread and god is it long and boring and full of circular arguments and a healthy dose of . Yet I still read most of it.. go figure.

And this board isn't? =)

Netura
03-15-2006, 08:09 AM
This is one place I consider Reptile an utter waste of mana. Rampage is not steady damage. its a pop here and a pop there. Considering that reptile is a proc, it is not an efficient spell to use against rampage. it will proc way to rarely to be of benefit. The spell is at its best when your being qaudded by an unslowed mob.
Some mobs consistently rampage very quickly, whereas others do not. Reptile on a knight rampage tanking magmaton will trigger quite frequently; whereas having it on someone tanking Saryrn in PoTime would be a waste.

Sildan
03-15-2006, 08:45 AM
I still dont personally feel there are any mobs rampage who justifies reptiles use.

Marpedod
03-15-2006, 08:57 AM
Reptile + audio trigger to announce when it wears off = teh win

Kamion
03-15-2006, 09:01 AM
I still dont personally feel there are any mobs rampage who justifies reptiles use.

Talk to my friend, Redfang. Mata too (Re: Stun)

---

IMO, it's worth to use it on any mobs ramps that's capable of killing the RT - assuming you have enough druids to be able to do so.

People should pay more attention to the mechanics of the spell rather than crunch numbers worring about the efficiency.

adawen
03-16-2006, 01:19 AM
Have you any of you actually had your tanks parse reptile?

I play a paladin (who works even better than a lot because he has about 20% chance to crit a proc) as well, and for single mobs reptile seems to range in the 2-6k heal range, with average seeming a bit under 4k.

Let's do some theory on single mob tanking (if tanking multiple mobs the spell is pretty cool, but that's rare). If you want to do some theory craft, with the 400 procrate mod, you should see 8 procs/min. That's 8*600 hp heal/10 ticks = 480 hp/tick. Lookup shaman's HoT.

In practice, a lot of the procs are wasted, because here is the order the game engine works:
* mob swings
* reptile procs (healing nothing if your are full)
* hp from swing is subtracted.

Because of this, I wouldn't be too impressed with this being using in conjuction with CH chain.

Wanna see some practical data from my parses.


Start buff: [Sat Dec 03 20:08:40 2005]
swing count = 120
proc count = 7
heal amount = 3600
mobs hitting you: Pyrilen Riftseeker,
End Buff: [Sat Dec 03 20:10:09 2005]
Start buff: [Thu Jan 12 02:51:49 2006]
swing count = 120
proc count = 5
heal amount = 3000
mobs hitting you: Warlord Drellak,
End Buff: [Thu Jan 12 02:52:50 2006]
Start buff: [Tue Jan 17 23:15:49 2006]
swing count = 121
proc count = 4
heal amount = 2400
mobs hitting you: Vampiric Blades,
End Buff: [Tue Jan 17 23:16:37 2006]
Start buff: [Wed Jan 18 00:02:44 2006]
swing count = 79
proc count = 8
heal amount = 2929
mobs hitting you: Fragment of Vishimtar,
End Buff: [Wed Jan 18 00:04:20 2006]
Start buff: [Wed Jan 18 00:34:01 2006]
swing count = 71
proc count = 7
heal amount = 2677
mobs hitting you: Fragment of Draygun,
End Buff: [Wed Jan 18 00:35:36 2006]
Start buff: [Thu Jan 26 00:23:02 2006]
swing count = 121
proc count = 13
heal amount = 5400
mobs hitting you: Warlord Drellak,
End Buff: [Thu Jan 26 00:24:20 2006]
Start buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:00:42 2006]
swing count = 62
proc count = 16
heal amount = 2382
mobs hitting you: An undead guardian,
End Buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:02:19 2006]
Start buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:02:50 2006]
swing count = 14
proc count = 1
heal amount = 600
mobs hitting you: Ralthos Enrok,
End Buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:04:28 2006]
Start buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:06:06 2006]
swing count = 120
proc count = 15
heal amount = 9536
mobs hitting you: A summoned guardian,
End Buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:07:34 2006]
Start buff: [Sat Feb 18 20:57:31 2006]
swing count = 72
proc count = 10
heal amount = 3390
mobs hitting you: A female Darkhollow redback,
End Buff: [Sat Feb 18 20:59:08 2006]
Start buff: [Sun Feb 19 13:37:52 2006]
swing count = 0
proc count = 0
heal amount = 0
mobs hitting you:
End Buff: [Sun Feb 19 13:39:25 2006]

Palarran
03-16-2006, 01:13 PM
With Reptile, sometimes it's not about mana efficiency or amount healed, but simply having an extra cushion for times when you can't heal...

Nimchip
03-16-2006, 02:00 PM
Have you any of you actually had your tanks parse reptile?

I play a paladin (who works even better than a lot because he has about 20% chance to crit a proc) as well, and for single mobs reptile seems to range in the 2-6k heal range, with average seeming a bit under 4k.

Let's do some theory on single mob tanking (if tanking multiple mobs the spell is pretty cool, but that's rare). If you want to do some theory craft, with the 400 procrate mod, you should see 8 procs/min. That's 8*600 hp heal/10 ticks = 480 hp/tick. Lookup shaman's HoT.

In practice, a lot of the procs are wasted, because here is the order the game engine works:
* mob swings
* reptile procs (healing nothing if your are full)
* hp from swing is subtracted.

Because of this, I wouldn't be too impressed with this being using in conjuction with CH chain.

Wanna see some practical data from my parses.


Start buff: [Sat Dec 03 20:08:40 2005]
swing count = 120
proc count = 7
heal amount = 3600
mobs hitting you: Pyrilen Riftseeker,
End Buff: [Sat Dec 03 20:10:09 2005]
Start buff: [Thu Jan 12 02:51:49 2006]
swing count = 120
proc count = 5
heal amount = 3000
mobs hitting you: Warlord Drellak,
End Buff: [Thu Jan 12 02:52:50 2006]
Start buff: [Tue Jan 17 23:15:49 2006]
swing count = 121
proc count = 4
heal amount = 2400
mobs hitting you: Vampiric Blades,
End Buff: [Tue Jan 17 23:16:37 2006]
Start buff: [Wed Jan 18 00:02:44 2006]
swing count = 79
proc count = 8
heal amount = 2929
mobs hitting you: Fragment of Vishimtar,
End Buff: [Wed Jan 18 00:04:20 2006]
Start buff: [Wed Jan 18 00:34:01 2006]
swing count = 71
proc count = 7
heal amount = 2677
mobs hitting you: Fragment of Draygun,
End Buff: [Wed Jan 18 00:35:36 2006]
Start buff: [Thu Jan 26 00:23:02 2006]
swing count = 121
proc count = 13
heal amount = 5400
mobs hitting you: Warlord Drellak,
End Buff: [Thu Jan 26 00:24:20 2006]
Start buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:00:42 2006]
swing count = 62
proc count = 16
heal amount = 2382
mobs hitting you: An undead guardian,
End Buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:02:19 2006]
Start buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:02:50 2006]
swing count = 14
proc count = 1
heal amount = 600
mobs hitting you: Ralthos Enrok,
End Buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:04:28 2006]
Start buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:06:06 2006]
swing count = 120
proc count = 15
heal amount = 9536
mobs hitting you: A summoned guardian,
End Buff: [Sat Feb 11 16:07:34 2006]
Start buff: [Sat Feb 18 20:57:31 2006]
swing count = 72
proc count = 10
heal amount = 3390
mobs hitting you: A female Darkhollow redback,
End Buff: [Sat Feb 18 20:59:08 2006]
Start buff: [Sun Feb 19 13:37:52 2006]
swing count = 0
proc count = 0
heal amount = 0
mobs hitting you:
End Buff: [Sun Feb 19 13:39:25 2006]


Yup we pretty much did in Beta...

After the nerf, we pretty much parsed 12 ppm PER mob.

Aldier
03-22-2006, 11:49 AM
I know of a couple times it is very helpful on raids.

Just like Sloth, this mob procs from the MA. That is seen as the MA healing/slowing the mob. Therefore it helps build aggro. If you get a good proc rate from Reptile, that is a lot of healing and simply helps your tank build aggro.

On Vish, the dervs that stun, I find Reptile works well on the people trying to control them again by generating aggro for them to keep the dervs off the rest of the raid.

Mobs with long stuns, Reptile also can help a lot bridge that gap til the stun wears off and someone can land a direct heal. Hopefully someone's stun resist goes off too to land a heal.

Fanra
03-22-2006, 06:54 PM
The other day we were doing Ture in Anguish. Due to the double xp, we had only about 40 people instead of the normal 54.

I was dropping Reptile Skin on the MA constantly. No idea if it helped much or not but we did win :).

Dayuna
03-23-2006, 01:10 AM
I'd cry if anybody wiped to Ture more than the first 1-2 times even with 30 or less ><

Netura
03-23-2006, 01:39 AM
I could tell you some stories that would make you cry for a loong time.

Alei
03-23-2006, 02:39 AM
I could tell some stories about arrogance that would-- okay, it might not make anyone cry, but still.

:p

Fanra
03-23-2006, 12:20 PM
I could tell some stories about arrogance that would-- okay, it might not make anyone cry, but still.

:p
I thought we tried to keep stories about the failure of the Bush administration to learn from Vietnam and listen to expert advice when it comes to Iraq off this board to avoid political strife. :)

Netura
03-23-2006, 02:17 PM
Theres a forum for that right here.

http://eq.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/forumdisplay.php?f=6

Please feel free to have political conversations at the above link. Off topic political attacks aren't really necessary in an everquest thread.

Madily
03-23-2006, 03:47 PM
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Alei
I could tell some stories about arrogance that would-- okay, it might not make anyone cry, but still.

:p


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I thought we tried to keep stories about the failure of the Bush administration to learn from Vietnam and listen to expert advice when it comes to Iraq off this board to avoid political strife. :)


Huh? Am I missing something? I mean I completely understand Alei's post and laughed, but I kinda get lost after that.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Dayuna
03-23-2006, 03:59 PM
4 cleric CH rot (3 if your tank is beefy), people curing appropriately, and melee moving out of the way when AE ramp is going on (because it's 100% avoidable). Ture is the easiest mob in Anguish as long as your raid isn't trying to get itself killed ><

Palarran
03-23-2006, 04:34 PM
I don't know about that...Ture _might_ be the most straightforward fight to learn, but I wouldn't say it's the easiest.

If I remember right, we've done both Keldovan and Warden Hanvar (in his current form) with a raid of around 25 people, but wiped at around 20% when we tried to do the same on Ture. :P

Dari
03-23-2006, 05:25 PM
The comment about crying if anyone wiped to Ture more than 1 or 2 times with < 30 is arrogant and that is what was alluded to with the arrogance post, for those of you who didn't get it. To imply that a guild needs to be cried over if they can't kill Ture with less than 30 is simply inappropriate. When guilds first try this event it is challenging. It is the first major Anguish named most guilds learn and it IS a learning event. If it takes them a full raid to kill him, that does NOT diminish the quality of the accomplishment for them and to imply otherwise is arrogant and rude. We were ALL there once...ok except for those of us still working towards it and I'm sure they will be there too. :wiggle:

And that event, btw, is a wonderful example of a good use of Reptile. I find using it on the pit tank for the dogs is a very easy way to keep him healed and me not have to worry about heal aggro at all, even when the new dogs pop.

Fenier
03-23-2006, 05:39 PM
Muldari.. I think you are confusing Harrier and Ture?

Dayuna
03-23-2006, 05:48 PM
Ture is the big chimera thing that most guilds kill on their first few attempts because other than Wanton Destruction and dodging emoted massive ae rampage (the only really nasty part), there's nothing to the fight that most guilds at that level of aren't easily prepared to deal with. If you feel that it's arrogance to say that I have confidence that most guilds can beat him easily in a few attempts, then that's your call, but I promise it wasn't intended as such.

Dayuna
03-23-2006, 05:51 PM
If you're talking about Keldovan (the pits, dogs, and packmaster's ae) then no, that's a lot harder fight than Ture is and I wouldn't expect guilds to get that down in 1-2 attempts.

Palarran
03-23-2006, 06:47 PM
Keldovan--yes, with the "pits, dogs, and packmaster's ae"--may be more difficult to learn initially (assuming no spoilers) but is MUCH easier once mastered.

Dayuna
03-23-2006, 09:16 PM
AE heal reduction + AE fizzle curse + CCing 4 adds > AE dot + AE 2 slot dispel + avoidable ae ramp

Keld > Ture imo

I suppose it might depend on how you do it, but Ture is the first mob we go after if we don't have a lot of people on yet and we're doing anguish for the reasoning that he takes a minimal amount of force.

Fanra
03-24-2006, 12:16 AM
Huh? Am I missing something? I mean I completely understand Alei's post and laughed, but I kinda get lost after that.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
I'm not going to go into politics here, that belongs in the Off Topics forum. I just made a bad joke, please drop it or we can talk about it in the Off Topics forum.

Thanks. :)

Alei
03-24-2006, 02:30 AM
It wasn't confidence in any guilds ability to do Ture, that came across... but pity for any guild that couldn't in one or two tries. That was what I considered arrogant, personally.

Winenose
03-24-2006, 07:08 AM
I don't like reptile at all. You can't rely on it. Putting it on a tank for added hate - OK. Using it for anything else while raiding - waste of mana. Well, most anything else.

If I could see the heals.. or even that proc fired, a'la focus items glowing. Or .. I don't know. I just don't like unreliable stuff.

I don't use reptile while soloing either. It doesn't last long eneough and casts too long to be recast while getting summoned.. and it makes me think getting hit to get healed is good.. which it isn't.

So, I pretty much never have reptile memmed unless I intend to tank a mob or 20, like farming tradeskill stuff in ssra / deep / wherever.

Madily
03-24-2006, 09:09 AM
Np Fanra, I don't want to go there either. I was just confused and, umm didn't get the bad joke :whistle:

I have to admit that I don't use reptile as much as I had when I first got the spell. But, I still use it on certain raid encounters. I more use it in groups or when duoing. I definitely think the heal procs justify the mana, in the right situations/encounters.

Dari
03-24-2006, 10:33 AM
Doh, you're right Fen. 3 days of being sick got me confused. Not that it's that difficult to do :shuffle:

Vekx
03-24-2006, 02:50 PM
.. and it makes me think getting hit to get healed is good.. which it isn't.


This just made my laugh. Not sure why but it's funny to me.

Dayuna
03-24-2006, 03:29 PM
It is kinda funny! (http://en.thinkexist.com/quotation/what_does_not_kill_me_makes_me_stronger/10927.html)

Fanra
03-25-2006, 11:25 AM
The high mana cost of Reptile makes it kind of impractical for many uses. But sometimes it can be handy.

In the Ture raid, I had tons of mana available and figured that anything to help keep the MA up was a good idea. I also threw Barkspur on him as well.

Unfortunately, in a really hard encounter, I would most likely not have enough mana as well as time between healing my group to do this.

Juniper
03-26-2006, 01:04 AM
I used Reptile today in Arcstone because of that stupid stun those Mistwalkers cast. Was able to keep tank up between spell interrups that way.

Dari
03-26-2006, 11:49 AM
Personally, I love Reptile. I really do. But the high mana cost does make it situational. In high-demand healing encounters I simply don't have the mana to cast this unless I get a GoM proc. I'd LOVE to see either a slightly lower mana cost or a slightly longer duration. (I'd also like to win the lottery :wiggle: )When facing mobs that stun it becomes invaluable IMO, as it can spot heal during those stuns and make the difference between your tank surviving or not. That said, I don't think it's such a valuable tool that I would see our guild requiring it for recruits.