I remember when rangers where the running joke of everquest.

These days its druids.

Clearly the only course of action for verant is to make druids into melee too. Some sort of summoned weapon possibly? =P

Put rangers back in their place!

(Tounge in cheek post btw)

Yes, Druids should get Double Attack (cap of 250 of course)and have our 1h slashing skill raised to 250. I like it :P

Can we add it to the petition then cross post in on the other class boards to get some responses. ;)

I am still pretty troubled that VI went a melee route to give clerics dmg.

It is I think very well known at this point that over time melee is superior to casting. It is the fundamental issue that was behind caster balance...monks/rogues/rangers are the dmg machines in the game because they don't rely on a mana bar to do their dmg.

Casters do more dmg in a shorter time perhaps, but the game has fundamentally shifted to marathon boss mob fights and long, constant pull raiding/group situations. Mana replenishment has become the biggest hurdle facing caster classes trying to fit their roles into the game, and other than the very necessary buff/debuff/heal roles, groups have shifted to as much melee as possible to face the high hp mobs in the best experience zones. If they can make a group of 5 melee and one caster, they do it...it is just better experience.

Now that one caster class has gotten a significant melee role, I just don't know how the non-pet caster classes are going to be balanced to it. This issue is just as pertinent to wizards as it is to druids really.

Ah well will sit back and eat popcorn. I still enjoy my raid time with my guild. But I think the recent cleric change is going to be a disaster a few months or a year down the line. They now have the most stable and reliable dmg option of all casters, save perhaps necros/mages with their pets.

Actually, I thought the melee solution for clerics was perfect.


1. melee damage ALWAYS stacks, you can bring it to any group.

2. Spell damage is mana dependant, meaning the cleric contributing damage cannot heal as well (i.e. a heal nerf)

3. The dwarven cleric in battle-dented armor chanting prayers to Brell while swinging his hammer is so RP it's disgusting. =)


As for druids getting melee? Hrmm, dunno. Not something I had considered.

I think the goal was do make something somewhat interesting that wasn't just sitting on your butt all the time. I don't want it but it looks fun.

Yes I know the goal and I agree with it. I want clerics to have fun and variety and the ability to solo.

I just don't know about them being the sole caster class that has meaningful melee skills. Melee>casting, so clerics (already one of the most desired in groups and raids regardless of how they moan about not being needed in easy zones anymore) were just given the most valuable dmg option of all casters as well. And it is perfectly suited (better suited) to grouping than solo.

In PoP, I expect we will see bosses with more hp, and exp mobs with more hp. Longer fights. More constant pulling, and an even greater strain on those classes that need to sit on their butts and med. Until two weeks ago, that meant Wizards, Clerics, and Druids primarily (though mages needed med time they did have a pet they could use to continue to add dmg while doing so).

Now it is just Wizards and Druids that are slaves to mana bars, and I don't see any hints that that is going to change.

The argument that druids could not get better healing because we were the best priests for doing dmg has just been vitiated. I think what we are about to see is that clerics will now have both the best healing AND the best dmg of all priests, and druids will get a single heal spell that makes them viable in zones that the experience nerf is driving people out of.

Time will tell, but I really think the specific solution chosen to fix clerics just put a nail in the coffin of the druid class. We simply can't bring as valuable a dmg skill to a group as a cleric can, and certainly not the healing.

I can't say I'd want to melee. :)

Heck, they are going to go that route might as well just jack up the stats on my pet and give me level buffs for him like a Beastlord.

/em ponders, nope...don't want that either :)

I would love to get the bash skill as far melee abilities go. Would give us a viable option for stunning in an indoor enviroment where as now our only option is. erg name of the spell just slipped my mind but the 250 magic dd/stun.

-MoonDancer

I don't agree on duel wield, but I have for some time argued that our skill caps should be increased along with those of all casters. Mobs have just changed so much since the original game (last time our caps were updated) that I think it is definite casters should get melee skill improvements. I'm not saying our melee should become ranger, monk, etc just that the original level of melee skill parity should be restored. Arguably this would probably lead to the conclusion that we should have double attack on our main hand though, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Clerics will still be sitting to med, just not as much. Y5 only gives 80% the mana you would get sitting down. After a few spells you have to sit and med to get your mana back, or run the risk of getting low on mana for heals. And healing will still be a Clerics #1 job in a group.

Clerics HoT spells make healing a minor use of their mana. In many groups just one member is taking dmg and that person can easily be healed for 400 mana per fight with one CH, or perhaps 300 for a CE if the dmg is light enough.

Even in "hard" zones clerics are generally pretty mana rich before this change, and if there is KEI in that group I would wager that cleric would be at or near full mana all the time and have virtually no sitting.

While they may not want to summon the hammer pet each time (though as a dot it is damn cheap), they can summon their proccing hammer at the beginning of the group, fight for half the mobs life to 3/4 the life, do more dmg than druids could with 2 casts of moonfire (which is about how much I can measure out per mob if I don't want to be oom before the third fight) then sit down if they choose. THe point is their melee power and the proccing from those summoned hammers is MANA FREE.

If particularly mana rich they can toss a few nukes on top. But they don't need to to add quite a bit of dmg.

"Only 80%" medding while standing is simply a stunning change to any class.

I agree it is stunning. As to your other points, at higher levels you could well be correct. As I'm only 57, I can only go by what I know. The 56 summoned hammer isn't as damaging as the higher level ones. My average dps according to EQCompanion is 19 and that's including MoR. I'm not a Druid spell expert, but I think they can get that much dps at 57 from a spell. But my heals at my level aren't as effecent as those you point too. So I have to sit and med even with KEI occasionaly. Depends on the mobs we hunt.

So at least at 56-57 the dps of us both should be comparable over time. (Unless I am wrong about druid spells at that level). As to 58-59 and 60 someone from those levels would have to give you their take on them.

Again the point is that druid spells are not in fact sustainable over time. We need to med. Melee doesn't require medding, nor do procs (or clicky effects and unfortunately druids don't get clicky nukes).

The melee dps is ok, but it is the proccing that is the key. And with the higher proccing version of the spell actually dropping in the game it will not be terribly long before most of the clerics I encounter have it.

For the DPS on the druid nukes used at 57 I would have to look it up. The highest at that level is frost, but many would still be using hmm Scoriae I think. Normally you only get in 2 or so nukes per fight in order to conserve your mana. So if you nuke for a total of 1600dmg over a fight that lasts a minute, that would be DPS of 27 or so.

Does your DPS include the proc dmg? Or just the true melee?

I am a 56 cleric as well. And I hit something like12-15dps with the hammer including the proc (not using MoR). It's just gimmicky spell damage, since we are givving up mana by not sitting (Yaulp V is significantly inferior to sitting for mana regen). It's fun to do in a group to keep busy, but I don't really think that I'm contributing much in reality to the effectiveness of the group by doing it. I still get the crap beat out of me going toe to toe with most dark blues, with an AC of 1k, so I haven't found it to be useful for soloing. Maybe at higher levels with better gear, but not as it stands.

It's a fun toy, but hardly anything to be jealous of, at least not the 56 version.

Just cross posting this. I think this guy is 60. With hammer pet and melee with procs he was showing something around 40 - 45 dps. Nukes could go on top of that.

This was with the bought hammer. The ones that drop in Ssra are supposed to proc like the original version that went live. Not sure what the DPS's were originally showing on those but lots of people were posting about clerics outdamaging some melee. A lot of debate about it but it is tremendously powerful.

eqcleric.gameglow.com/for...adid=11764 (http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?s=add14a3ffd7aa8b16599454d5b382f89&threadid=11764)

Remember too that if a druid is trying to be a fill in healer, they can't really spare the mana to nuke. That means the only dmg druids contribute is from their clicky dots, which have extremely low DPS.

Thanks for the link above. 8o

I didn't realize their melee was changed THAT much.

Remember that is the gimpy hammer. The dropped ones in Ssra proc much more frequently.

Some posts when the 9/4 patch came out were comparing cleric melee to ranger melee. Others said that it approached but was "not quite as good as" paladin melee.

There were a lot of claims, but few parsed results.

Sorry Oak had to drive home from work )

That dps is proc, melee, and Mark of Retribution.

That's after a nite of solo and grouping, the total average. I had a high of 34 dps a low of 14 for the nite

Thanks for the clarificatin Aorian.

On the one I posted above please note that the cleric in question had a haste item (34% I think).

Some of the posters who repeated his tests seem to have come up with figures that were a little lower.

But again I have yet to see first hand what the "high proc" versions of the hammer do. Most of the DPS comes from the proc and up that rate and the DPS can go way up.

You are still seeing an average of that DPS (melee) is roughly 35% . thats pretty dang significant. I mean really, where does a Druid compare with thorns swinging his Epic for all he's worth? :p

That's a joke by the way. :)

Still pretty impressive melee changes.