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Fenier
06-23-2006, 06:38 PM
Wth is it with Paladins wanting to outheal everyone but Clerics?

http://pon.myfreebb.com/viewtopic.php?t=2176&sid=3976ee182e853e2dc845d79e6ceea8d6

Juniper
06-23-2006, 08:50 PM
I dunno, what is it with some Druids and their epics.

(the cycle of whine continues forever and ever)

Naeyene
06-23-2006, 11:08 PM
It's cause we (my pally side) are a demanding class and demand and deserve the absolute best Sony has to offer! :cool:

I know WTF kinda asses are they? Priests should definately out heal hybrids! Even if its with a spell that wasn't implimented into the game until 6+ years later and that was exclusively Pally / Cleric territory! :shuffle:

Fenier
06-23-2006, 11:09 PM
I havn't heard any major complaints about our epic effect in quite some time.

That said, I would like to think most of the posters here are fairly realisitc about what to expect. Things like Slight DPS upgrades, Cold based Attack Reduction spells etc are not game breaking shifts in power to us.

This is as opposed to, increasing what someone can heal for 110%+ from one expansion to the next. I mean Clerics and Wizards didn't even get power increases on that level when they got Ether Flame and Desperte Renewal.

We're not talking slight, reasonable power adjustments. We're talking about people who want to redefine entire aspects of their class, and - in the case I quoted, actually increase their healing powers to be fairly equivlant (or better) then Druids / Shamans - as a Hybrid class.

-Fenier

Dayuna
06-24-2006, 11:07 AM
Many of the players posting there have good ideas, but just don't see the overall balance and how the changes to paladins that they want will effect other classes as well. I'd say it's a safe bet that every class (including our own) has members who want unreasonable changes.

Fenier
06-24-2006, 11:51 AM
I'd say it's a safe bet that every class (including our own) has members who want unreasonable changes.

Agreed, and most of ours perfer the Sony forums. However, I would like to think we are fairly realisitic in what we ask for, and at the very least are able to back it up with a valid arguement.

Kinyenya
06-24-2006, 12:10 PM
as to the original question of this thread, personally I LOVE PALLYS, i would rather have a pally tanking for my group than any other class, i feel they hold aggro better than warriors or Sk's, they stun mobs on inc when i pull so they get aggro faster, they have a group heal which in effect with ours does a great job for AE's. Personally i feel that anything they do to increase pallys is great imo. I leveled my entire life pratically with Meunforgiven a pally on Saryrn server and we were really in sync with each other. So much so we go in game married. So maybe my opinion is a little biased:p:texla:

Woodelfous
06-24-2006, 02:22 PM
I'll have to say that i much prefer a SK over a pallie in group any day. I used hydra Dragothorn(anguish geared pallie) all the time, untill i got my SK some gear and AA.

SK's 2 mana taps on different cast timers, and an extra one if you have a morgue caller. They can pull when ever needed, also are able to give things like group attack taps, AC taps, snare, and AE taunt.

Here's the thing about paladin heals, they have sucky recast times, don't heal for much and cost a million mana.

I don't think paladins should be able to heal for more, but they should atleast allow them to sustain the ability for a reasonable ammount of time, and shorten the recast timer on their heals.

Dari
06-24-2006, 08:32 PM
I must agree with "Woody". I love my SK partner. I rarely have mana issues, they can pull wonderfully and aggro is NEVER an issue unless he's surfing gnome pr0n.

Sanoliene
06-24-2006, 08:46 PM
a new hybrid? (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b124/kathyuk/leafblower.jpg)

Willanaome
08-04-2006, 04:05 PM
My paladin doesn't want to outheal everyone... He just wants to kick some major tushy... :)

Willanaome
08-04-2006, 04:13 PM
I'm not sure of the rules for this but if it's wrong go ahead and remove this post... I just opened up a new board for Everquest Paladins at www.eqpaladin.org (http://www.eqpaladin.org) It is a brand new board and has almost no content as yet. Those of you who have Paladin alts please feel free to drop in and post. I will be open to suggestions as to what forums are wanted and/or needed besides the ones I have already set up.

Tenielle
08-04-2006, 07:59 PM
Just give them a couple more undead zones and they'll shut up

Taeyn Kaidyrsi
08-04-2006, 10:31 PM
Nothing in that thread was any less realistic than things we've suggested for ourselves in our wish lists on The Druid's Grove. Players often dream big when new expansions are announced. Doesn't mean the majority are going to take those suggestions seriously. Nor do I see an overwhelming desire from paladins to outheal druids and shaman. However, I agree they should outheal any other hybrid class.

Most paladins simply are not going to take the suggestion for a iCH seriously. Any more than most of us take seriously the suggestion for a druid pet comparable to the mage pets.

I'd love to see Paladins get cure and heal upgrades. I'd especially love to see them get an MGBable heal. Not like we're ever going to get an MGB heal without thorns, so someone should.

Frankly, I don't see any reason to get all bent out of shape over a paladin wish list. Especially, when warriors have been crusading for weeks now to get Reptile nerfed. A potential nerf of one of our heals seems more important than a suggestion for a pally iCH. Especially as the nerf is likely, and a pally iCH will never get off the ground.

Eldrynn
08-05-2006, 06:11 AM
S T U P I D

Iliandra
08-07-2006, 08:29 AM
If SoE gives us a Pegasus we will shut up.... Look at the wonders of what the unicorn did for us..

(kidding)

Stephen51
08-15-2006, 09:02 AM
Not you guys too! Most Paladins dont want to heal as well as Priest Classes, thats not that we dont want upgrades to our heal spells, but most just eant upgrades in line with the new expansion.
We seem to be caught be between the devil and the deep blue sea when it comes to 'upgrades'. One of our DoDh spells was nerfed into uselessness on the eve of the expansion and the Warrior Correspondent seems hell bent on nerfing our Ward of Tunare spell.
I admire him for trying to get Warriors balanced,but to do it by requesting that other classes (and its usually Paladins) a lazy and nasty way of doing it. Sorry getting a bit off topic here.
As a Paladin I'd like to MGB my group heal - as we only have 1 spell anyone wants MGB'd, for 9 AA's we dont have much incentive to MGB it.
Also a group cure spell would be useful.
In no way shape or form do I think these abilities shouldnt be given to Druids also (if they want them).

Kamion
08-15-2006, 09:45 AM
What do druidswant? Good question, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer.

Dayuna
08-15-2006, 04:14 PM
Druids want such a huge variety of things that if you ask 20 druids, you'll get 20 different answers.

Aelfin
08-16-2006, 11:56 AM
dx9 graphic model update for Tunare with super sexy /dance emote that only Tunare druids can see, please.

Erianaiel
08-17-2006, 02:27 PM
Druids want such a huge variety of things that if you ask 20 druids, you'll get 20 different answers.

That is a very conservative estimate on the number of different answers you will get. Depending on the day of the month and the moon phase (and the secret handshake) you may get as little as 38 and as many as 187 different opinions if you ask 20 druids what they want.


Eri

Kamdaru
08-17-2006, 05:16 PM
I am just hoping they upgrade the group spell with the 5 new levels we are getting. Most of the time i use this spell to "save" someone just to get a faster heal off on them.

Have to agree with Taeyn better mana management on their spells and faster resets would help out other healers a lot.

Woodelfous
08-20-2006, 02:55 PM
Druids want such a huge variety of things that if you ask 20 druids, you'll get 20 different answers.

Well I think the easiest way to sum up what druids want would be to say we would like Mana VS Effect of our spells to improve. Allowing our DPS to be SOME WHAT on par with other DPS classes (This does not mean we want to out DPS wizzies). Also allowing our heals to either heal for more, or cost less mana so we can heal effectivly through out the duration of a raid.

Some would prefer this happen through stances, others prefer this happen through changing of our spell mana VS effect.

Oh and we also want a Fraggle-Stick Car.

CuteLittleDruid
08-22-2006, 02:27 AM
Druids want such a huge variety of things that if you ask 20 druids, you'll get 20 different answers.

You're absolutely 100% correct on this Dayuna, I'm amazed we've gotten the upgrades we actually *have* gotten because of this. For comparison, check out a shammy forum at http://crucible.samanna.net/index.php, a generally much more level-headed and realistic bunch than you'll find here (less of the BS "omg /huggles! i want a cuter bear pet that's level 80 and quads for 500 /cuddles", and more of the analysis of the real class balance issues that come with wanting upgrades)

So....what do i want upgraded? I'm very content with our healing, but would love an upgrade in:
- Cures (upgraded to group cures): I'd be happy with either group-rgc or a shammy-like group pureblood/nadox). Basically, I don't think a 2 minute re-use timer on rc6 is cutting it when responsible for curing a group. To compare with the other priest classes: Shaman have nadox (group pureblood), and cerlics have 2.0 clicks and WoV; I'm fine with clerics being ahead but feel it should be a little more balanced.
- *either* our DD dps or DoT dps: I don't think we should nuke like wizzies *and* DoT like necros, but a bit closer to one or the other would not be unbalancing, as long as we stay behind mages in dps.
- Hand of Ro, for no real specific reason other than this spell is almost always memmed and used, whether in raids or groups; but it's how many years old? (lvl 61 from Pop, right? with no upgrade since). Just feels like it's time for an upgrade for this always-useful debuff, maybe double the atk debuff on it? Ask Fenier for what's appropriate on the specifics!

Okay that's great, but who am I you ask? My perspective comes from a raiding druid (demi tier 1, working on Sullon Zek) who's generally responsible for a pile of wizzies + bard or random dps on raids; but i also do a lot of grouping outside of raids as main-healer, in places like RS, nest, relic (btw, that's a fun zone to xp in with nice augs and twink-drops!).

Will it happen? who knows! but either way, it's good to keep this kind of discussion open and productive: what do you think?

Fenier
08-22-2006, 07:38 AM
- Hand of Ro, for no real specific reason other than this spell is almost always memmed and used, whether in raids or groups; but it's how many years old? (lvl 61 from Pop, right? with no upgrade since). Just feels like it's time for an upgrade for this always-useful debuff, maybe double the atk debuff on it? Ask Fenier for what's appropriate on the specifics!


You don't need drastic adjusments in the amount of attack reduced. Presonally if it *was* upgraded I think it'd reduce like 110 attack or so (going off the upgrades to the Fixation line).

The main point which could use upgrading is in the fact you have to cast 2 or 3 debuffs for max power. What I personally would like to see is an extension of the Disjunction line (56 - Luclin) which combines the Sunder and Fixation lines into a single 10 minute debuff.

The main issue with Disjunction was the lack of resist modifer. If this was fixed, Disjunction debuffs would be a viable way of addressing multiple points concerning the speed and application of -attack debuffs.

-Fenier

Dayuna
08-22-2006, 09:22 AM
It's not really that shamans are a more level headed bunch than us, there's just a huge number of playstyles a druid can adopt that all need different upgrades. Raiding druids tend to want upgrades cures, better heals, and some want more dps. Soloing druids don't care about heals or cures, they only want better dps. Grouping druids tend to want more efficient heals. There's a large amount of back and forth between the groups because the general consensus is that everybody wants the upgrades that support their playstyle and the feeling that there are only a limited number of upgrades that we will get. For a quick example, one druid wants upgrades to dps, and believes healing is fine so we don't need an upgrade to it and won't get one if dps goes up.

Alei
08-22-2006, 11:39 AM
Upgrade it all, jeez! Isn't it our turn to be overpowered yet?

/taps watch :p

Honestly, I think the bare minimum that I would like to see is a better and easier way to cure a group and the efficiency of healing. I'm not asking to heal for more (though I wouldn't complain), but seeing a better ratio between mana and HPs healed would be nice. And in certain raid encounters, casting Pureblood once or twice (more in some cases if another AE lands first) on every person in the group takes time and some AEs won't allow for that-- because some have a DT that hits before the AE has even faded /runonsentence OFF RGC, that takes even longer to cast. I love that you can reduce the recast time of Resplendent Cure to two minutes, that is a huge help. However it by no means covers everything that needs curing and does not solve our curing hindrances.

edit:
BTW, by better mana/HPs healed ratio, I meant perhaps reducing the cost of mana. I, by no means, am asking to heal for any less to be more efficient, pfttt.

Kamion
08-27-2006, 08:11 AM
It's not really that shamans are a more level headed bunch than us

They whined an insane amount during PoP, and look at what happened!

Willanaome
09-16-2006, 03:23 AM
Perhaps we should have a top ten upgrades topic here like they have on the Enchanter board.

Erianaiel
09-16-2006, 07:01 AM
It's not really that shamans are a more level headed bunch than us, there's just a huge number of playstyles a druid can adopt that all need different upgrades. Raiding druids tend to want upgrades cures, better heals, and some want more dps. Soloing druids don't care about heals or cures, they only want better dps. Grouping druids tend to want more efficient heals. There's a large amount of back and forth between the groups because the general consensus is that everybody wants the upgrades that support their playstyle and the feeling that there are only a limited number of upgrades that we will get. For a quick example, one druid wants upgrades to dps, and believes healing is fine so we don't need an upgrade to it and won't get one if dps goes up.

The best solution to this is through items that act like AAs (if you combine enough of them in your equipment) rather than spells. That way every player can tailor his or her abilities to playstyle and role. Want better DPS? Get the gear and enhancements with the DPS special skills and ability boosts. Want cures? Get the gear that give those skills. Want efficiency? Get the specialised gear for efficiency.
The trick is that you need to combine a number of items with the same or similar effects for it to work properly and you have automatically restricted the players to one or maybe one and a half specialisation without locking them into countless hours of AA grinding that in the end they theoretically could still collect all of and bypass the specialisation idea. (restricting the total amount abilities means locking the players into one playing style, leaving them unable to perform in others which is something few players ever do for their entire career).


Eri

dorda
09-19-2006, 09:56 AM
>>>Soloing druids don't care about heals or cures, they only want better dps.

not entirely true .. as a solo charmkiter I was caring a LOT about heals, and atk debuffs, and buffs, and dots, and longterm snare, and shortterm fast root, and fear,DS ...pretty much everything. Just wanted to point this out.

Fenier
09-19-2006, 10:02 AM
Keeping yourself cured is now vital to using OoC Regen. If you have a debuff on you, no resting state is available.