I didn't sign the druid petition because what it proposed was not a fix for the druid class, it was some convience changes that once implamented would let VI pat itself on the back for having done effectivly nothing for the class and then let it slide into oblivion for a couple years. Maybe the druid petition wasn't meant to be for class balance, but there are some problems with the class that DO need fixed and not the minor convience items that make up the majority of the druid petition. The current wave of druid stupidity that is the "lets gimp CH enough so it's useless and won't piss clerics off" is really probably the final step on the road of giving druids an enduring destiny of being raid gimp.

The druid petition had a lot of recommendations, the majority of them being minor conviences and didn't actually deal with major class problems. Removal of the 10% healing penalty is cute but by the time it was done druids had already gotten 50% more healing from focus and AA, and before AA etc. it's removal was such a small boost to our healing we'd go from having a less efficient heal than a 34 cleric to having a slightly more mana efficient heal, whoopdie doo, do you invite clerics who haven't even made level 35 on a raid? A single target version of protection of the glades is just a convience same with ports that have no benefit on raids or in groups but admittedly I'd often thought of quitting the game while staring at the nexus scion for 15 minutes straight or by sitting around even longer by 15 minutes for most raids as others had to wait for portup or run from Ssra. Glades being overwritten by aego is annoying as heck but again doesn't really hurt or benefit the class either way and is just another stacking problem to add to the dozens and dozens. Moonfire was obviously broken, it was either meant to be a lure or someone put it in wrong and had to eventually be fixed. The epic snare removal is nice but it's 9dps isn't going to be make or break and now that mobs moving doesn't seriously lower DOT damage I'd actually rather keep the snare if they'd just lower the resist rate on it, but our epic is little more than a soloing/farming tool either way and pretty meaningless. Both group heals for druids and an upgrade for winged death are both ill concieved, group heals are the purview of clerics and paladins and druids should never get them, in fact the cleric group heal short of group CH sucks and it's a complete mystery why druids would even want them, thankfully clerics are getting a new group heal. Damage boosts should come to our nukes and the druid ancient nuke looks like it did get upgraded again, but if a DOT were to be upgraded it should be our evocation line and not Winged Death line as druids tend to specialize in evocation, a cold debuff version of Breath of Ro for instance, but DOTs are not our thing, all our top damage spells are nukes, we have some of the best nukes in the game, and while DOTs might have served us well in our younger days it's time to get unfixated on them already.

There are 3 main problems as I see them for druids: a) Druids lack sustained DPS, particularly in groups but also on raids, b) Druids lack of agro control, c) Overall lack of sufficient healing in the game. I'm also not impressed with the overall post 50 spells power level for druids.

Problem "a" comes about because druids are the ONLY non melee class to lack all 3 of the main gimmicks for generating sustained DPS in groups, those being pets, manaless nukes and high mana regen. In a group with little downtime or on very long boss mob fights or clearing raid yard trash, druids are seriously sub par in the end game for damage dealing and I'll only invite them to a group if absolutly necessary. For instance, druids can do about 6 damage per mana with moonfire with focus, AA and specced in evocation, so in a group where we might average 30 mana/tick we do a sustained 30dps, on raids with bardsong, KEI etc. we'll do 60 or so dps, more with some of the better Luclin mana toys. Compare this to wizards who have more mana efficient nukes, lower resist on their nukes coming, and higher mana regen (6 from familiar, 3 from harvest, 3 from epic) typically about 6/tick better on raids (ignoring mana robe) lets them do easily 70dps... but... add on their free nuke via rend robe and they're pushing well over 100dps to a druid's 60dps. Compare to shamans, even without using torrent of poison or their efficient DOTs shamans can manaless click their JBB for over 30dps and add on pet and in groups shamans are pushing 40 to 50dps WITHOUT using mana, toss on torrent of poison and the occasional canni and shamans have easily 2 to 3 times the sustained DPS of druids in groups, on raids shamans have no problem doing well over 70dps with their clicky nuke, nukes, rain and massive mana regen, 1k mana over a druid every 3 minutes just from clicking canni 5 alone. I can go on and on and it just gets worse when you look at necros and magicians. The fact is that outside of direing a dog in Chardok druids are the ONLY class to lack the essential components for sustained DPS, we're the ONLY class to lack a clicky nuke for free damage, we have one of the lowest if not the lowest mana regens on raids particularly in 2nd tier and lower guilds, and we don't have a pet for free damage. Now with the proposed cleric changes clerics are getting as much as +5 mana/tick and free nukes via procs from hell and know what, welcome to being the class with the lowest manaregen and worst group DPS in the game druids. Thank god druids get a couple quad kite spells even if they can't be used indoors and aren't as efficient as the wizard's.

Problem "b" is a somewhat rarer problem that comes about primarly on shorter fights when we're burning our pool but hopefully will be a more common problem in the future if we ever manage to put out decent damage or healing. Druids are again in somewhat of a situation here being one of the few classes without some sort of agro control. SKs, necros, monks all have feign, rangers and wizards have jolt, jolting blades and concussion as well as low agro damage, clerics and paladins have DA, rogues have evade, most of the melee classes also have a "can't hurt me" disc, enchanters and clerics have blur/atone although not useful for dealing with self agro on boss mobs, magicians and enchanters primarly deal damage through a pet that should hold agro although the 3/4 pet per mob rule sorta sucks, and of course all int casters have spell casting subtlety. This mostly leaves shamans and druids, and I don't envy shamans their high agro DOTs if they can't FD. Anyway, I've found with many "short" fights now I'm taking off my FT gear in favour of HP/AC as I'll end up with mana left over anyway because I simply can't burn it or else get agro, and with all the wizards clicking their manaburn, more and more fights are becoming "short."

Problem "c" is somewhat complex and is different for raids and groups. One of the primary problems in the game itself for raiding is the need for CH. Typically when VI makes a mob harder they up it's damage output and expect CH to be there to counter it and people do by 2boxing more clerics into the raid. This has led to a large chunks of guild rosters being clerics for the simple fact that they have to be, there is no realistic way around it without fixing CH which everyone knows is broken, having a guild of entirly stonestancing/mending/FDing monks or... giving it to (many) other classess like all the other primary raid spells are. Really, face it, 3 clerics, 6 druids, 6 shaman, 6 paladins is not as good as 5 clerics unless you're after Emperor Crush or some gimp Kunark mob. CH is broken and our silly little Nature's Touch just cannot be used as a substitute, you either have enough CHers for the raid or the raid doesn't happen and that is it, end of story, and that is bad. Clerics are already a required participant at raids, best heals (other than CH), DI, rez, best HP buff all make them more required than any other single class, but then you add on the broken CH and you get the hideous imbalance that is the platoons of high priests at the heart of every raid and the more clerics you pile into the raid the more likely you are to not fail. Give CH to paladins, give it to monks, give it to beast gimps, give it to druids, give it to shamans, it's only going to make raids less painful and reduce the amount of people having to 2box clerics or playing their cleric alt, or better yet, get rid of it and retune the game so clerics CAN be good healers not some clicker of a broken spell. The sad suggestion of the gimped CH will not fix this problem, the shaman one is frankly laughable at 2k heal, the druid one (75% 3k 400mana) CURRENTLY has the potential of letting TWO druids almost take the place of a single cleric IF they have sufficient mod rod backup, but with PoP doubtless tanks will have even more HPs and mobs will do even more damage and you're going to need THREE druids dumping three times the mana and eating 3 times the rods to do the job of a single cleric's CH AND without Celestial Elixir they won't be able to do any of the riposte or AE healing the clerics also can do so really would be hard pressed to replace a cleric to begin with. I suppose shamans will be given the job of picking up the slack if druids try to cover for "lack" of clerics as their even gimpier version of CH ain't going to let them fill a spot in the CH chain any day soon, just let them make up for the lack druids have with insufficient heals trying to do a job they can't.

For groups the current gimp CH is probably overkill. Although I find even with the AA and focus changes giving druids around 4 to 1 healing to mana being not sufficent for most groups without a slower preventing most of the damage, going up to 8 or 10+ to 1 becomes more than enough in most places even if the HP/sec rate is still relativly low compared to clerics. With this druids can defintly be the primary healer in groups that don't expect people to die or that have a necro, paladin or camped cleric alt to rez.

Our current lineup of post 50 spells for druids is somewhat dissapointing, I'm sure we're not completely alone in that though. Mask of the Stalker at 60 is similar to wizard's level 34 harvest and should be pitched down to 39 or something along with Spirit of Oak. Tunare's Request 55 and Nature Walker's Behest 54 are utterly useless at the level we get them at, the bearpet needs a ball stuck under it's butt and made to juggle and work as an agro reducer to be any use to us. Foliage Shield 52 is a group version of a level 19 spell, sheesh, talk about lacking ideas and ramming crap spells in. Wizards get AE snare at 29, Bonds of Tunare is up at 57 despite druids getting snare at level 1 and it should be pitched down a lot of levels along with the marginally useful Entrapping Roots. Nature's Recovery at 60 is just plain sad and should be dumped down to 49 where it would actually be a good spell. Wake of Karana 56, hehe.

So what do I think needs to be done? a) Fix the VP clicky nuke staff druids get to be more in line with the VP rend robe wizards get and put the starweave tunic back in the game on some gimp mob like IV, Velkator, Phara Dar or the like where others get their free nukes, a druid useable manarobe would be nice too =). Other possible fixes I wouldn't really recommend would be to give druids massive mana regen, OR, make the bearpet a true "force of nature.", OR, remove the animal only restriction on all the druid charm, buff and debuff spells including dire. b) Give druids Jolt, it won't help druids live through AE agro via healing like DA will but it will let us nuke harder in mid duration boss fights and survive pulling agro with chain healing in groups. c) Spread CH around to other classess like almost all the other raid essential spells have been. It doesn't have to be druids, but getting rid of the deathgrip a single class has on healing will relieve pressure on druids. Gimp CH is NOT the answer, CH is the answer. Gimp CH is nice for backup healing but it is not going to reduce the number of clerics required for a raid at all. Personally I'd pitch druid's craptacular dire charm for an AA version of CH or make a cleric summonable DRU/SHM/BST only NORENT 10 charge 800 mana draining 11 second cast CH ring or something. Well heck, personally short of pitching CH from the game I'd give it to druids and shamans and while I'm at it pitch all slows over 20% from the game and give shamans ressurection.

For those of you who are, please, please, please stop asking for druids to be "raid essential." Requiring any class to show up or a raid doesn't go on isn't a good thing, we have enough raids not happen because there aren't enough clerics or no mages to feed them or for some strange reason all the warriors or shaman are taking a day off at the same time. Adding druids into this mix is a BAD THING. And for those who want something to bitch about, please bitch to VI about the ancient spells all being shoved up Vulak's butt instead of spread throughout the game so guilds have to spend hours and hours and hours camping him instead of getting the spells in the natural course of raiding like they were intended to. And while you're at it bitch at VI for druids being singled out to have their Brogg dropped ancients raped from them while all the other classes got to keep theirs. =)

Love that album.

I skimmed what you wrote, but I think I got the general idea.

I think a and c are larger caster issues, but I agree they definitely need to be addressed. Druids used to share the A problem with wizards, but wiz have since gotten greatly improved mana regen capabilities.

Healing is clearly being looked at atm. I have faith it will be resolved. Healing has so exclusively belonged to clerics due to not being fixed, that I feel it will take some time to let others come to see that healing functions have greater value being spread out.

I think vi is looking at these issues. The recent spell changes generally seem to indicate that VI is listening and that they are measuring their actions.

had already gotten 50% more healing from focus and AA

?

I either want your focuses and AAXP, or your math.

How do you figure that?

In general I think it is a well reasoned post. I completely agree that our sustained DPS is a problem and that agro control is a huge issue for us.

One thing I am wondering about is why I seem to see so many Shaman shouting "DA" on raids. Do they get the spell or an equivalent? Or maybe a clicky item that does it? Food for thought.

Your analysis of CH is much in keeping with mine. Truly, I am encouraged though that the spell under consideration is at least a very real and significant improvement for druids, and I see it making us much more viable dealing with the riposte dmg etc even if we can't be in a CH rot. I feel this will definitely decrease the required clerics at a raid because up to now, only clerics could handle the secondary healing in addition to the CH rot. So prior to the new spell, you might have 5 or 6 Clerics in the CH rot, but need anotehr 2 or 3 to float and heal the other tanks. Now the druids and shamans can take those 2-3 cleric slots, and the cleric need is more like 5 to 6. Still higher than basically any other class, but better than it was.

HA was a 10% boost. HG and IH3 have to be averaged, but get you an additional 20% on average. That is 30%, on average, greater HPs healed.

SCM3 is a 10% reduction in mana cost. MP3 is and average of 5% reduction in mana cost. That is an average of 15% reduction in mana cost.

If Druid heal_01 used to heal 1000 hp for 100 mana, giving you a 10:1 (yes this is fake) after all specializaion is factored in, then after AA and Focus, the same spell heals, on average, 1300 hp for 85 mana, giving you apx a 15:1 ratio - hence a 50% increase.

EDIT: Original mana ratio does not matter, of course, and that is why I made up the heal_01 spell, since the math was easy. But for those who might think it does matter, if you run the same numbers on NT(alt spec), you get 2.4:1 preAA/focus and 3.7:1 after AA and focus - a 50% increase.

"had already gotten 50% more healing from focus and AA
?
I either want your focuses and AAXP, or your math.
How do you figure that?"

SCM and focus reducing cost of spells a further 15% (average), 10% more healing per spell from AA, 10% chance to double heal from AA, 10% (average) more healing from focus effect. 15% faster cast time on heal spells from focus effects. I am a FAR superior healer now than I was at the start of Luclin. Obviously the AA boost doesn't apply to everyone but the focus benefits pretty much do. But I'm not concerning myself with sub 60 much and sub 50ish at all really. Having focus items and buying KEI now I really can't motivate myself to care about how easy a time sub 50s have even if it's only easy compared to how hard I had it and it's still a bit grim. =)

"One thing I am wondering about is why I seem to see so many Shaman shouting "DA" on raids. Do they get the spell or an equivalent? Or maybe a clicky item that does it? Food for thought."

I have a pair of Earrings of the Frozen Skull, 4 charge rechargeable DA, and usually keep a shiny brass idol around too. But I'm not typical and I live in fear of the server going down while I'm character switching to recharge. Shamans get a rechargeable ring from PoS that lets the FD too, although I'm not sure if the quest items still drop etc.

I'm still trying to get my second staff of forbidden rites, once druids get CH my master plan will... wait am I saying this out loud? =) Anyway, my cleric has a GVD for invis, potions for SoW, necklace for snare, rechargable potions for shrink, instant cast levitate, instant cast clicky see invis and I'll eventually get her a hammer and shard for porting (has temple port) and puppet strings for charming. Both characters have rechargeable corpse summoning stones too. Druid has orb for blind, yadda yadda. With each expansions dumb magic items there is less and less one class can do that the other can't. The dumb magic items in the game are more important than your character. I still want to throttle VI people when "rogue_00 begins to cast a spell", "monk_83293 begins to cast a spell", "warrior_12 begins to cast a spell" Pfft. Newbie_13 asks warrior "SoW please!" Warrior says "sure" and pulls out katana... and casts SoW. =P Go proc avatar somewhere else!

Sorry, but having a heal that might eliminate clerics from grind groups is already concern enough that I can safely say that I don't want the real CH that heals for 10,500 hps.

I'm kinda hoping that one of your points, Cleric attendance, might be helped with the coming cleric changes. If clerics are more fun to play, maybe there will be more online when raid time comes around.

Course they complain that they are bored during raids... well duh, who isnt except the pullers and leaders. But I tell ya having played a cleric a lot over the years, and recently a few times on Emp Ssra and in VT, I thought it was pretty exciting come fight time. And yes, I was playing a cleric cause we didnt have enough... 8P

But I generally agree with your post. I also didnt sign the druid petition, and I also dont see the new druid heal as fixing any real problems. Lack of dps is a real problem, and we've nothing else to add in exchange for that.

Tia

The Rend robe does not drop anymore, according to sources at Graffe. :/

"One thing I am wondering about is why I seem to see so many Shaman shouting "DA" on raids. Do they get the spell or an equivalent? Or maybe a clicky item that does it? Food for thought"

Shiny Brass Idol, I have one I bought off a vendor for (?)50pp, with 2 charges left. Right clicks DA.

"The Rend robe does not drop anymore, according to sources at Graffe."

Well that stinks, too.

Tat

How do you recharge the earring?

"Tunare's Request 55 and Nature Walker's Behest 54 are utterly useless at the level we get them at, the bearpet needs a ball stuck under it's butt and made to juggle and work as an agro reducer to be any use to us."

Dude oh my god, loL!

That in the piles of sarcastic humor I have read is hands down funniest. With more wit like that less people would need therapists. Nice post by the way, well phrased intellegent presentation of your observations and ideas.

Forget the ring.

How the hell do you guys all read those long a$$ed posts?

"The Rend robe does not drop anymore, according to sources at Graffe. :/ "

Thought I saw one drop a couple months back, don't do VP much, spell drops are fantastic but 95% of the stuf in there is sub par now. Would really suck if it got pitched, maybe they'll bring it back with the mythical VP revamp (still waiting for the Droga update...) Regardless there are a lot already out there and there are other clicky nukes that aren't as good but still decent. Even manarobe/epic isn't bad and I see manarobes for sale in the bazaar fairly often.

Quote:
How the hell do you guys all read those long a$$ed posts?



We are moderator-groupies.

It is just to make us feel close to you all....

You cannot balance a class based on level 60 and tons of AA points.

For me to go on a raid or group at 60 I must level in 51 (aa points) 3-4 dozen times before I can be considered balanced?

AA points, IMHO, are supposed to be a "bonus"

Other classes can play the high end game without tons of aa points or focus items - why should Druids have to jump through an extra few hoops?

The same thing goes for rare spells. Far too often people who are in the "have" assume the "have nots" have 40-50 aa points, uber equipment, rare spells and level 60 or they are lazy or unskilled in some way.

The level 54, 55, 56, 57, 58. and 59 Druid pays the same money to play this "game" as the next person and while tossing a carrot in the form of a rare spell, nice items and enhansed abilities is nice for motivational purposes it does not mean that these people deserve to rot at a zoneline LFG or have to solo to 60.

I know not everyone feels this way but time and again it seems like those 60+ look down on others as if someone a few levels below 60 with no aa points does not deserve to be effective.

The simple fact is that 90% of the guilds are "not" tier 1 guilds and are most often very short on clerics and healing that prevents them from participating in much of the high end game.

Asking 90% of the server to wait for the "table scraps" from the upper 10% of the server may seem fair to some but I am VERY VERY happy that Verant has decided to help all their customers have fun and not just the upper 10% like they have been accused in the past.

Make no bones about it - this new healing spell helps the 90% and not as much the upper 10% who already have enough Clerics to do the big stuff.

I fully support helping Clerics or any class with issues they have and hope that they can be addressed ASAP.

I've said my peace *smiles*

One thing I am wondering about is why I seem to see so many Shaman shouting "DA" on raids.

I think they are grouped with a bard and shouting for the DA song to save their @#%$.

I think they are grouped with a bard and shouting for the DA song to save their @#%$.

<offtopic>Came to love that song when I found out I could "trans" my bard friend anywhere he wanted to go, without porting there myself. Saves me the zoning time x2 and mana of porting back. </offtopic>

~Firemynd

I think AA points are just like more levels without the level separation problem and making mobs go green. It is a legitame way of improving your character (like new spells or gear) If it helps think of it as more levels but it isnt a bonus. It is the same as saying a level 60 druid has things over a level 55 druid. It is a goal to achieve.

But yes this game has always been about a very rare raided upper level having the best gear and unfortunately in the last expansion the best spells. Personally what I like about it is that unlike new armor or weapons, it can be gained by anyone and not just the upper crust of EQ.

But yes, AA points are how we level in SoL. Jumping through hoops is how this game is whether it is getting level 60 or getting Healing Adept 3.

Lind,

heals are about the most efficient method of mana there is for damage, have you considered that?
Say you group with a meleer, PTOC/regen, str buff, DS, directly you have contributed to that persons damage output but substantially reduced their damage taken. That is *NOT* insignificant, and you can nuke pretty well plus a damage shield.
A mage/wiz cannot heal that tank, mages have good DSes and can provide bandaids, wiz can cast O'Kiels *cough* :>
So that arguement, like it or not, is NOT VALID in respect to a group. Most groups can do without a mage or a wiz, but they CANNOT do without a healer. if that healer also adds good DPs, woot!

In terms of damage spells themselves, changes from kunark to now are not huge, but mana regen HAS, whether it is in the same degree and comparative to melee increases is a point, since FT only drops from uber mobs in general, and sorting out focus/ft between many classes is a pain.
If you wish to be fair you should compare a warrior with VP gear and a druid with equivalent kunark gear/spells, to a Luclin/velious eqipped warrior and a druid with similar.
What are the potentials for both? What are the increases? Are they similar? Take both classes with 40 AA points, maximum level of mob equipment is Creator in Shezra/THo/NtoV/ST/Itrear Vius/Velious class armour/FT 8/epics.

Yes lack of right clicks is silly, chardok item for druids/wizzies is an EVAC item?!! EH?! Should be around a lvl 35ish DD for both classes. NTOV...em...er...caster stuff there is *crap* Should be more major focus/right clicks, agree with you there.

Any druid trying to nuke as hard as a wiz and get away with it is being silly. Wizards nuke: That's their JOB, thats ALL THEY DO, I have no sympathy for druids who want to try and nuke as hard as them. Wanna be an uber nuker play a wiz. However for "nuking druids" rather than "healer" druids, yes aggro is a problem, but you can heal yourself...Some kind of rune would be helpful and appropriate though? With healing and nuking you can build up a lot of aggro and on uber fights that can get brutal with no DA/rune/plate armour
Say "Embrace of the earth", 300 hp rune as you are shielded by a stony skin?
(I understand there's nuking and healing druids, but the extremists in both sides, those who wish to nuke like wiz and those who wish to heal like a cleric are smoking crack :>)

Summoned pets there is USUALLY no limit to the amount that can hit a mob by way (theres some exceptions but think that's a glitch or deliberate coding). NPCs and charmed NPCs seem to be different.
You can't have taunt on on big fights, so your pet does not lower you on the hate list on those combats, ergo you still gotta watch aggro. And stay out of melee range in xp groups to.

Redorious
Archmage
Karana

I'd agree with Bern on this one. *gasp*

AAXP is available to all, and that is exactly why it's a viable way of determining the relative power of a character and/or class. You don't need to be a full-time-uber-raiding-guild player to achieve AA abilities; you can get them at your own pace, in whatever timeframe you have.

Where I think Verant goes wrong, is making NON-ancient spells ultra rare, or having them drop from mobs attainable only by the highest tier guilds. In my opinion, ancient spells should be appropriately rare, but while other spells need not be common, they should be 'common enough' that druids of appropriate level and moderate means can obtain them.

Just like melee, we work on upgrading our equipment for effectiveness (in PoP, we'll see more caster items that make a difference in power, and not just in stats). Just like melee, we spend time and money trying to get new gear. It doesn't seem very "balanced" to make casters jump through even more hoops to get our spells. Non-tradeskill quests for spells, yes; super rare drops from the highest level mobs, no.

~Firemynd

My point was not that everyone cannot gain aa points it was that a class, while having a few holes here and there throughout their levels, should be balanced at "all" levels and not only upon reaching level 60 and 30-40 aa points.

As it stands now there is a "huge" gap in a Druids healing ability from level 29 to 50 and then again from 51 to 59.

Greater Heal is the only spell Druids can heal with from 29 to 50 and we forget that the same argument about mobs having more hitpoints, higher attack ect... at the high end applies to Druids from levels 29 - 50.

At 51 we get Superior Heal (2.3 ratio) and at 55 Chloroblast (2.4 ratio) and at 60 Natures Touch (2.4 ratio)

Clearly if high end Druids need a bump in healing even "with" focus items and aa points then does not the Druid without focus items, aa points or these slightly better ratio heals need a bump?

Should a level 50 Druid be healing his groups with a level 29, 300 heal (2.0 ratio) spell?

Now maybe yes maybe no as few level 50 Druids do any high level raiding but surely something can be done to at least bump Superior Heal down to 44 maybe.

Now talking about the level 55+ Druid is a different matter. The "smart" Druid will not be wasting experience by putting it into AA skills for they know that levels are much more important than those aa skills and should not a 55-56-57-58-59 Druid also be allowed to group, raid and yes heal when asked to at these levels?

Are we to tell those Druids who wish to raid from 55-59 to go home and come back at 60? When they come back at 60 are we then to tell them to go home and come back when they get 30-40 aa points?

The only way a level 55-59 Druid can be considered balanced is if you exclude all high level raids. Some people would say that a 55-59 Druid has no business raiding - I could not disagree more. If other classes can raid effectively at 55-59 then Druids should also.

To proclaim a class to be balanced only after they level to 60 and then again with aa points 30-40 times most certainly does seem like jumping through undo "hoops" unless of course all the other classes need to do the same and this I do not see.

"heals are about the most efficient method of mana there is for damage, have you considered that?"

That makes no sense. Have you considered that all classes come relativly close to wizards for nuking ability, especially mages, but none come anywhere close to clerics for healing?

"A mage/wiz cannot heal that tank, mages have good DSes and can provide bandaids, wiz can cast O'Kiels *cough* :>
So that arguement, like it or not, is NOT VALID in respect to a group."

Actually if a mage or wizard gets a mob dead much faster, bandages ARE better healing than a druid. 60 clerics nuke to 80% of a 60 druid, do you invite them to groups as nukers Red? But you invite druids who heal 30% as well as a cleric. Sorry, you're just being silly.

"Any druid trying to nuke as hard as a wiz and get away with it is being silly. Wizards nuke: That's their JOB, thats ALL THEY DO, I have no sympathy for druids who want to try and nuke as hard as them. Wanna be an uber nuker play a wiz."

Quite amusing coming from a class that easily outdamages wizards or can provide a raid with as much as half it's CH mana. You give out 3 rods to a cleric and you've already done more healing than a druid can do Red, then you got your pet going for what, 50 or 70dps on low mitigation mobs, as much or more than most druids could do straight up nuking, AND THEN you got you @#%$ fee clicky nukes. Sorry but hearing a mage complain about druids is like listening to Clinton saying the British have too much sex.

"Where I think Verant goes wrong, is making NON-ancient spells ultra rare, or having them drop from mobs attainable only by the highest tier guilds. In my opinion, ancient spells should be appropriately rare, but while other spells need not be common, they should be 'common enough' that druids of appropriate level and moderate means can obtain them."

I don't mind spells being appropriatly rare, in fact for the most part they aren't too bad other than Garrison's. Malo and Torpor are sorta out there too but the thing is most spells drop off many things and in the case of kunark/velious spells they can even be farmed off a lot of mobs that you don't need a full raid for. I think equipment is more a problem really.

Getting a velious tunic for free RotG is more valuable and harder than getting the RotG spell for instance, but even that is farmable with a sub raid force. The biggest problem is semi unique gear on unique long spawn mobs and it's worse when you have gear that is all caster useable or worse still caster and hybrids who have delusions of being casters useable. So you have 20+ people in 10+ guilds who all want this item or one like it that drops off maybe 2 or 3 Luclin boss mobs that spawn once a week and drop the item 1 time in 3... 200+ people after an item that enters the game 50 times a year. Add on retired characters and new characters coming in and forget it. Compare to spell drops at LEAST 50 luclin boss dropped spells enter the game each week, thats 5+ just for druids which is enough moonfire for every active 60 druid in under a year.

It would be nice if power scales appropriately from 50-60 like it all should. 60 is nice but we have to have a way to get there. :) You can tell us to solo, but then you expect us to be able to raid well once we get to 60?

That's what Wizards do.

Compare to spell drops at LEAST 50 luclin boss dropped spells enter the game each week, thats 5+ just for druids which is enough moonfire for every active 60 druid in under a year.

Sorry but your comparison of a certain robe to spells doesn't pan out.

First of all, you act as though each uber guild calls for a big meeting of all "active 60 druids" on their server every time Moonfire drops, and distribute the spell fairly.

*cough*Bull*****cough*.

Distribution:
More people have druid alts than any other class, and I personally know of two people with dr00d port whore level 44ish alts who do have Moonfire sitting in bank, and I know at least three "active 60 druids" who do not have the spell.
Selling:
There are plenty of Kunark druid spell scrolls for sale in bazaar because those have been dropping long enough for the market to become saturated. I've seen one copy of Moonfire in the past five weeks. Does this imply that we need to wait 2+ years for SOL-era spells to reach saturation point before they'll become reasonably accessible to those who can scribe them?

Second, that "desired" robe you're using as example is not considered a factor in class balance, nor should it be. However, when someone has already devoted the time and effort to work for 60th level, I believe they are somewhat entitled to their 60th level spells, just like meleers *automatically* get their level-based melee disciplines. Spells are NOT the same as gear; they ARE more like disciplines, and you don't see melee classes being made to search high and low for those, nor pay 20-60k to get them... they simply take a trip down to their local guild trainer and click a button.

~Firemynd

First of all, you act as though each uber guild calls for a big meeting of all "active 60 druids" on their server every time Moonfire drops, and distribute the spell fairly.

Yep, know several people in upper guilds with port whore alts who aren't level 60 with moonfire in the bank.

Yep, know several people in upper guilds with port whore alts who aren't level 60 with moonfire in the bank.

Even if we assume Lindara's estimate is correct (5+ SOL druid spells dropping each week), we must also allow for other SOL druid spells to be included in those five. So let's say there are 2 copies of Nature's Recovery dropped, 1 copy of Mask of the Stalker dropped, and 2 copies of Moonfire. On a bad week, maybe 0-1 copies of Moonfire. Therefore on average, less than 75 copies of Moonfire will drop within a year. I'd say there are nearly that many druid alts belonging to uber guildmembers with other class mains. That may be different from server to server, but I know my server has been around since beta 4, and there are plenty of 60th levels in every class ... which probably means more 60th level druids and more 60th level 'other' with druid alts.

Still, there is no way that "every active 60" on a server is going to have this spell in the space of a year. I'd say my guess of 2+ years would be more likely, and again, that simply isn't very balanced across the board, especially not with melees who needn't rely upon rare drops to get their disciplines.

Spells are an attribute of the classes which can scribe them, not something you should have to work for twice. And in case you're wondering, I am also of the opinion that INT-caster "research" spells are an outdated timesink system that should have been revamped long ago.

~Firemynd

Just to clarify a point, when I say spells aren't something you should have to work for twice, I'm mainly referring to the time spent waiting for a spell to be available (which can mean available through a mob that most mid-tier guilds can do, and in sufficient quantity that its price isn't totally outrageous). It's worse when the spell is entirely unavailable to those of adequate level except those in top tier guilds, simply because it's too rare a spell to have "extras" to sell off.

~Firemynd

What ticks me off, is I never hunt outside. I am inside about 95% of my party life. I see druids twinks, kiting in SG having never played in a party their whole druid lives, taunting me with how they have Mask of the Stalker because they know the right people and it really makes me crazy. This is something that would make an impact on my daily game. If that is how Sony wants to do it then they need to make things like riposte like a spell and have it drop. Spells aren't armor, weapons, they are our ability to do the things in our class we were meant to do. /mutter

Hehe... I got Mask of the Stalker sorta by mistake.

Was checking for spells in bazaar, and saw MoS for 3k. (3k!OMG OMG) -- track and RUN to that person. Right-clicked on him, and the price had jumped to 20k. In the words of Skaterr Gnome, "wtf?"

I sent him tell to say I still had my bazaar search window on screen from only a few seconds ago, and it said 3k... was this a glitch?

No, he said he had looked up the spell and thought 3k was fair price for it, but his guildies told him that ANY druid luclin spell was a pure cash crop worth at least 20k (and 20k had been the lowest price of the other two times I had seen it for sale since SOL was released).

Nice guy that he was, and kind of embarrassed about what most would have seen as "bait and switch"... he sold it to me for 6k.

And yes, MoS definitely does make a difference in my daily gameplay. But hey, I worked through 60 levels to be able to cast that spell, and still don't think I should have to wait for uber guilds to get enough copies that they have an extra to hold ransom for 20k or higher.

~Firemynd

"And yes, MoS definitely does make a difference in my daily gameplay. But hey, I worked through 60 levels to be able to cast that spell, and still don't think I should have to wait for uber guilds to get enough copies that they have an extra to hold ransom for 20k or higher."

With MoH lasting well over 2 hours MoS only makes a difference for me on raids where I die in a zone that CoH doesn't work or don't want to jump through to hoops to refresh it. It's an utterly dumbass spell VI gave us because they couldn't be bothered to think up something original, the outdoor only restriction should simply have been removed from MoH AND it shouldn't even be anything close to a level 60 spell.

"However, when someone has already devoted the time and effort to work for 60th level, I believe they are somewhat entitled to their 60th level spells, just like meleers *automatically* get their level-based melee disciplines."

Druids get 1 spell at level 60, Nature's Touch. A warlord weilding fine steel and wearing crafted with their 60 disc is probably not anywhere as powerful as a 60 druid with their just their storebought spells and wis jewelry. You probably don't want to start comparing meleer's innate abilities without uber mob drops to caster's without uber mob drops, you'll make the meleers cry.

Granted of course VI has gone crazy overboard for meleers and they get MUCH BETTER uber drops *cough* avatar proc, slow proc, large DD proc, haste, heal *cough* than casters, especially druids.

But melee classes have 10x the number of items to choose from. If you cannot afford that 20k melee item I bet you can find one almost as good for about 3k.

Not so for casters.

And you can often sell old equipment to help fund some of the new stuff. Last time I checked I could not sell Frost to help fund Moonfire *smiles*

All druids of a certain prestige have exactly the same gear +/- a couple of pieces...

I like it this way, makes it so I don't have to worry about lewts too much ;)

And you can often sell old equipment to help fund some of the new stuff. Last time I checked I could not sell Frost to help fund Moonfire

Excellent point for this side of the argument. I seriously doubt the other side would have a logical counter, other than pointing out that items depreciate in value over time. Would give that point a nod for effort, but fact remains, we cannot sell less powerful spells from our book to help fund new spells, and that is not the only imbalance between upgrading melee gear for which there are thousands of choices, and upgrading spells for which there are no alternatives other than what is listed in our class spell line-up.

If all meleers were limited to only five 60th level weapon choices in the entire game? Just five, not a thousand different weapons each with its own set of stats and click effects -- but just FIVE weapons, total, from which to choose. And for any one of those five weapons, all melee classes had to WAIT until uber guilds finished farming enough copies for all their mains and alts, you'd see a LOT of 60th level melee classes in every other guild tier, using older weapons .. with little to no hope of seeing their newest 60th level weapons for a year or more after each expansion release.

So to Lindara, I say you are exactly right about meleers crying ... but only if they had to put up with the same nonsense to get their weapons as we do to get our spells.

~Firemynd

I have no prestige.

And worse lewts.





But earned every bit of both.


/smile

"And you can often sell old equipment to help fund some of the new stuff. Last time I checked I could not sell Frost to help fund Moonfire

Excellent point for this side of the argument. I seriously doubt the other side would have a logical counter, other than pointing out that items depreciate in value over time"

LMAO! What uber boss equipment drops that meleers use is tradeable? *scratches head* Almost nothing. In fact I can't think of a single thing off any of the luclin boss mobs that drop moonfire that even IS tradeable. Sorry, but you're just being silly. You DON'T need to get an ST key to get moonfire like you do primal, your best weapon nor can you buy a version of primal that procs for 90% of what primal does cheaply like you can wildfire or farm juggernaughts or skyfire mobs for a primal like weapon that often outdoes primal ala blizzard.

It's been how long since Velious came out and ask the top dozen guilds on your server how many of their warriors have primal and then ask how many of their 60 druids have protection of the glades. It's simply not comparable. It's not like it only drops off emperor or in VT or something. Our ancients all being shoved up Vulaks @#%$ on the other hand, now THAT is bitch worthy in a lot of ways. I'm more than willing to bet that the percentage of active warriors with VT only vengeance items is much smaller than the percentage of active druids with moonfire. And guess what... they're not tradeable. There is almost nothing tradeable in the late game, spells are an exception.

The point is not how many level 60 melee have the "absolute" best item for each slot and/or weapon but the fact that there is always an alternative that is close enough to the absolute best to allow that melee to be maybe 90% effective.

If I cannot get Moonfire my next best cold spell, Frost, is far inferrior.

You may laugh all you want but while that "tank" might have to settle for a slightly less damaging weapon I most certainly cannot find a version of Moonfire that does slightly less damage.

How many no drop weapons are there in the game? A few for sure but you can recoup at least some plat from selling your old weapon whereas I have an entire spellbook of spells (90% in fact) that will NEVER be used and can NEVER be sold.

I tried ripping the pages of my spellbook out once but the darn thing must be protected by some magical force and the page would not rip. I then let someone else read my spellbook in hopes that they might copy the spells for their own use but alas that same enchantment prevented them from reading my spells. I then tried to read the spells to them in order that they could write down the incantation but they could not understand me.

Would any melee classes object if all weapons were made no drop once they were equiped?

Better yet how about making all spells have a 7 day timer. If after 7 days the spell is not scribed then it will poof. That would sure stop the banking of spells and cause them to be distributed. No more level 40 Druid alts with Moonfire or level 40 Chanters with C3 thus cornering the market and keeping prices high.

Silly idea maybe or maybe not :)

Better yet, make the new melee non-tradable weapons and such unable to be destroyed. =P

"The point is not how many level 60 melee have the "absolute" best item for each slot and/or weapon but the fact that there is always an alternative that is close enough to the absolute best to allow that melee to be maybe 90% effective."

Not really. There isn't really anything comparable to primal melee weapons. There are, I dunno, maybe a dozen top rogue peircers that are quite a bit better than the rest and the luclin ones ARE better than the velious ones, and again, apples to apples, a dozen boss mobs drops the rogue peircers occasionally, a dozen+ boss mobs drop moonfire occasionally. AFAIK the monk weapons aren't quite as dramatically better than the rogue ones but here is a class that gets a huge benefit from boss mob dropped gear and goes from nothing special to godly broken with it. Just compare the HPs on the MTs of 3rd teir guilds to 1st teir and it's dramatic, as much as 2k difference on a raid, add on literally twice the damage output and many times the agro output but a non raid druid to a raid druid can be very close in spells and given enough time they will be.

The only real problem I see is that Luclin lacks farmable mobs. IF you want to blow a lot of time farming juggernaughts/protector or Chardok royalty or WW dragons or various other things with a group you can end up with most/all the spells. Luclin on the other hand doesn't have yardtrash or short spawn mobs that drop the 60 spells and in some cases like speed of the brood, marzin's mark and garrison's they're seriously sucky to get.

Getting a velious tunic for free RotG is more valuable and harder than getting the RotG spell for instance,

<cough> I still don't have RotG scroll.

I'd say getting right click RotG is easier than finding a scroll.

Compare to spell drops at LEAST 50 luclin boss dropped spells enter the game each week, thats 5+ just for druids which is enough moonfire for every active 60 druid in under a year.

You are neglecting to recognize certain issues.

A) Every boss mob that drops spells will drop at least 1 beastlord spell. Generally the same beastlord spell that's dropped the past 7 times you killed that mob.

B) If for some reason all the spell drop slots aren't that same beastlord spell, there will be at least one Blessing of Aego and/or KEI.

C) If somehow you get through those and a druid spell manages to drop, it is guaranteeds to be Nature's Recovery 9 times out of 10.

Lindara, if you're going to compare the weapons to spells, you must compare the weapons that drop from the same mobs that drop Moonfire. You don't need any VT key to get Moonfire, but you also don't need a VT key to get everything else dropped by the same mob that drops Moonfire. I would *hope* that any mob dropping primal weapons would drop an *ancient* spell, not a regular one like Moonfire. Do you understand that point now? Good. Let's stop trying to bring primal equipment into the discussion.

My analogy of "five 60th level weapons" was merely to point out that meleers can function just fine with weapons they obtain through the same non-end-game encounters from which our Moonfire scroll drops. The difference is, they have viable alternatives to those weapons ... some of which drop from those same non-end-game mobs, some of which drop from entirely different non-end-game mobs, and some of which can be made through tradeskills ... and casters do not such alternatives.

You either have Moonfire or not, and it doesn't even matter if your guild "can" defeat the mobs that drop Moonfire -- because unless your guild is capable of steamrolling the uber guilds who literally own certain named mobs to farm their spells/loot, you are just sh*t outta luck until those guilds have extra copies to sell. This is not a fair means of VI distributing spells which were designed to be "normal" (not ancient) spells for our level.

~Firemynd

"You either have Moonfire or not, and it doesn't even matter if your guild "can" defeat the mobs that drop Moonfire -- because unless your guild is capable of steamrolling the uber guilds who literally own certain named mobs to farm their spells/loot, you are just sh*t outta luck until those guilds have extra copies to sell. This is not a fair means of VI distributing spells which were designed to be "normal" (not ancient) spells for our level."

You're still taking the view that casters should just be gifted all their spells but meleers should have to kill uber mobs to get their equipment. I don't buy it. Meleers have to put up with a lot more @#%$ to get their better equipment than casters have to get their spells (with a couple non druid exceptions.) When meleers can lay down 20pp in Firiona Vie and get a weapon thats 90% as good as the best luclin boss mob dropped weapon then I'll listen to you.

My monk may be able to go out and buy a tranq staff but it isn't even in the same ballpark as a Caen's Bo Staff, Horn of Chaos or even a gimp Trorsmang.

I have to agree that VI more or less said that t he Ancient spells and focus items are meant to be the rough equivalents of very rare and powerful melee gear...not spells.

The problem with Luclin spells is and always has been that ONLY boss mobs drop em.

Setting aside the possiblity of a very rare drop off the vamps for a moment, that basically means that a very finite group of mobs that has an average respawn of about 5 days and which are just about perma camped by a handful of guilds on any given server are the only source of virtually all level 60 luclin spells.

In Kunark, you could go farm Juggs...for days and days if you wanted to or needed to...and get a good mix of the 60 spells even if you could not quite get all of them. Other point is of course that Kunark has been out for over 2 years now and there is still some competition for the mobs (dragons) that drop the rare spells you can't get anywhere else...primarily because of spells.

Luclin has put 100% of that spell acquisition process on the named rare mobs. This was very short sighted. There are plenty of areas in Ssra, the Deep, etc where there are level 60 plus mobs that could have had many (if not all) of the 60 spells in their loot tables and would have allowed the equivalent process of farming the more common spells.

You're still taking the view that casters should just be gifted all their spells but meleers should have to kill uber mobs to get their equipment. I don't buy it. Meleers have to put up with a lot more @#%$ to get their better equipment than casters have to get their spells (with a couple non druid exceptions.) When meleers can lay down 20pp in Firiona Vie and get a weapon thats 90% as good as the best luclin boss mob dropped weapon then I'll listen to you.


I never said we should be able to buy Moonfire for 20p but then again 20,000p seems a bit extream.

And do not forget that we are just talking about spells here. Do not forget that casters also have to obtain equipment.

The sad fact is that the current system makes rare spells cost far above what "most" people would consider reasonable. And by reasonable I do not mean 20k is fair for a rare spell - maybe it is. I am reffering to the fact that no spell besides the ancient line should be so rare that they sell for more than a few thousand plat.

If you want to be honest here please admit that the melee classes can make due without 20-30k weapons and also keep in mind this:

On Eci the level 60 Druid spells are being sold for:

Natures Recovery: 5-10k
POTG: 1-2k
Mask of the Hunter: 15-50k
Mask of the Stalker: 15-50k
Banishment: 1k
Moonfire: 20-30k
Entrapping Roots: 1k

So for a Druid to get all their spells upon reaching level 60 would cost from 57k - 144k!

This does NOT compare to obtaining armor as we have to obtain armor also.

I can also add in:

ROTG for 5-15k
Remove Curse: 3-5k
Remove Greater Curse: 15-20k

Shall I go on?

Even "if" you have wads of cash you often cannot even find people selling these spells. Until the drop was upped POTG was selling for tons and now can be found for as low as 750p

Does anyone think that a Druid should have to save from 70-200k just to get their level 58,59 and 60 spells?

Does any melee class have to spend from 57-144k upon reaching level 60 just to be effective?

<blockquote>Does anyone think that a Druid should have to save from 70-200k just to get their level 58,59 and 60 spells?

Does any melee class have to spend from 57-144k upon reaching level 60 just to be effective?</blockquote>
Well at those levels what you're talking about for melees is no-drop weapons really. I'm not saying there are no good tradeable weapons, but you know that the best ones (no drop) all come from a couple of zones.

"The sad fact is that the current system makes rare spells cost far above what "most" people would consider reasonable. And by reasonable I do not mean 20k is fair for a rare spell - maybe it is. I am reffering to the fact that no spell besides the ancient line should be so rare that they sell for more than a few thousand plat."

Frankly 20k is chump change for a 60 druid and takes little more time to solo farm than getting a couple AA points, and moonfire may pay off more than a couple AA points. And lets not forget, this is if you want the spell NOW and aren't in a guild capable of killing something as gimpy as the rhags. In other words you're able to buy your top spell while the meleers in your guild are making do with... hell, what crap drops off things weaker than Rhags, 11/18s as the top 1hs, exquisite vellium 2hp, and epics? Maybe willsapper if you're lucky.

"If you want to be honest here please admit that the melee classes can make due without 20-30k weapons and also keep in mind this:"

I'm being honest, druids can make do without moonfire far more than meleers can make do without decent NODROP items they couldn't buy if they had a trillion PP banked.

"So for a Druid to get all their spells upon reaching level 60 would cost from 57k - 144k!"

And meleers can buy their top items where?

"This does NOT compare to obtaining armor as we have to obtain armor also."

If FT wasn't capped I'd tend to agree with you, but as it is, well. The hard part is the lame competition for the very few special items like boon, whispers and koadic's stuff.

"I can also add in:

ROTG for 5-15k
Remove Curse: 3-5k
Remove Greater Curse: 15-20k

Shall I go on?"

Please do. 3-5k for remove curse, hell if tools were paying this much for it then farming the money to buy moonfire just became that much easier, sheesh! Click track... HEY, 30 seconds later you have 3 to 5kpp worth of junk for the bazaar mule.

"Does anyone think that a Druid should have to save from 70-200k just to get their level 58,59 and 60 spells?"

Sure, if thats how they want to go about getting them. How much do SoDs sell for, 200kpp? 500kpp+? 100kpp just to loot an ST key part on Legends right?

"Does any melee class have to spend from 57-144k upon reaching level 60 just to be effective? "

Do you seriously consider a druid without moonfire to be ineffective compared to one with? YOU be honest here.

Boots of Flowing Slime you can get with a single group are selling for 65kpp, 20kpp for stalker which you need a raid for is a good deal.

Frankly 20k is chump change for a 60 druid and takes little more time to solo farm than getting a couple AA points

20k isn't chump change if you haven't been designating yourself group looter for much of your pre-raiding career, and/or if you haven't spent a sizable chunk of your druid life farming lowbie tradables and port-whoring for plat.

I just spent the night with guildies in UP. Didn't happen to win any rolls, nothing for druids dropped, and I came away with exactly 1 plat more than I had several hours ago (don't even remember seeing plat, but maybe folks had split turned off *shrug* wouldn't have been a sizable amount anyway).

Yes, I could have spent those hours farming and selling, but IMO that isn't what this game is all about. Even though it is technically possible to waste time with god-awful boring drudgery of farming crap, it certainly isn't what I consider enjoyment.

Some of us don't farm continually -- we leave that to the dr00ds who hog camps which people of appropriate level could have used to get exp and have fun. I'd be willing to bet that at one time or another you've been among those 55th+ level druids killing mostly green-con giants in rathe, knowing full well there were groups of 30-40th level struggling to find spawns before you grabbed them with mana free items.

Some of us can't attribute 100 of our /played days to mindless farming and plat hoarding -- and I guess the type of people who actually play this game to have fun are the ones most upset by price gouging.

And lets not forget, this is if you want the spell NOW and aren't in a guild capable of killing something as gimpy as the rhags.

Capable of killing the mobs that drop moonfire does NOT equal having an opportunity to kill them. As we've pointed out, the boss mobs which drop our luclin spells are perma-owned by uber guilds, and until those guilds have farmed enough for extra copies to be made available (for 20-60k+), we won't have a chance to get those spells by killing rhags with our own guilds. I know several mid-tier guilds who are anxiously awaiting PoP, if for nothing else, so the uber guilds will finally give the rest of us a chance to raid luclin bosses.

I don't hold those uber guilds totally at fault, though; it's Verant's shortsightedness and lack of proper planning which allows such a poor method of spell distribution. And again, these aren't ancient spells we're talking about here ... these are NORMAL spells, among other things, that were advertised prominently as benefits of getting the SOL expansion.

~Firemynd

My monk may be able to go out and buy a tranq staff but it isn't even in the same ballpark as a Caen's Bo Staff, Horn of Chaos or even a gimp Trorsmang.

There is a big difference.

A monk using a tranq staff isn't as effective as a monk using whatever the monk uberweapon of the week is, but he can still do those "monk" things: FD, Flying Kick, Voiddance, etc.

And if a monk can't the Horn of Chaos...well he can get the Fist of Acrylia, or any number of other weapons which are basically as good.

A druid with crappy equipment may be less effective, but it doesn't effect limit him from doing "druid" things.

A druid missing spells is missing a key portion of that which makes him a druid, and if you're missing Moonfire...well the next closest thing to Moonfire is Frost. That's quite the leap in power.

To compare Moonfire's effectiveness to Wildfire's and say "they are almost the same, its no big deal" is an erroneous comparison. We have two lines of indoor castable nukes (discouting Hissy of Air). Cold and Fire. You compare nukes based on their line. Especially when CT, The Deep, and Ssra make Wildfire all but useless, forcing you to rely on BoK or Frost (CT is the best XP in the game. Ssra is a zone any high end player will spend untold hours in farming time sink parts. The Deep is probably the second best XP after CT and has some significant raid mobs in it)

Without Moonfire...a druid is not complete. He lacks the diversity of damage required to meet the expectations of a druid.

Imagine if /disciplines were "taught" via primers dropped from only level 60 boss mobs...

Frankly 20k is chump change for a 60 druid and takes little more time to solo farm than getting a couple AA points

Ok. Newsflash Linda. You ain't that ubar. This is less a response specific to this comment as to your entire attitude on here of late.

You are not elite. I know a slew of damned fine, good, druids who have completed more content than you (more "uber"), who think 20k is a whole buttload of cash.

Moonfire is not easy to get. If you didn't buy yours from Novae...you got yours because Ashborne Alliance got very lucky and you were one of, what three? druids that were in that alliance with any sort of regular attendance.

Please tell me what I am doing wrong in which I have never had 20k to my name?

I do not farm.

I have never charged for ports.

I give items away to help others more often than I sell them.

Did I just answer my own question?

Is this a wrong play style?

If I continue to play this way am I expected to never obtain my spells?

I thought we had moved past the talk of people expecting others to play the way they do or they are somehow less skilled. I almost choked when I read that 20k should be chump change for a level 60 Druid.

Is there some trick to obtaining all this wealth that does not entail charging for ports or endless hours farming/selling?

Ahh many folks will think we are all a bunch of greedy druids anyway. Dont worry about it, its not everyone. Eventually the greed mongers will make their money thanks to the econ set up by Verant, demand will drop as supply is upped and we can get some spells at affordable prices after the newness wears off (Who did not know we would get ports to the moon after it was out for a while? Cmon). If they can charge that much it is hard to blame them when supply and demand is pathetic. There are some, folks snatching up Nature Walkers Behest at 1k and reselling for 6000 or 7500pp comes to mind - makes me laugh guess I am not ready to own a puppy yet.

A gimp like me would be floored to see Boots of Flowing Slime or some such item closer to my level. And most of us would be in there with our groups thus trying to get decent equipment for us and ours. As is buying some of my spells up to 56 I am cashless. Got to make the trip to Umbral Plains and work on drops for a hella long time for my group and I...does not leave much time to farm fatty platty. I share (give away) what we get with my small guild, and group. I mean go into BFS camp and get the piece to sell and finance spells...hehe - C'mon get real.

Keep this in mind, maybe some of the peeps that you helped with corpse runs when they asked you naked at the bank or /ooc'd and you answered them...will remember that some people who play Druids are not rotten to the core. After all who here has not been thanked many thousands of times for spirit of wolves given whether asked or not. And those getting cynical remember it never hurts to float everyone at the bank a sow, tiz ok to give.
These ignorant sterotypes must be dismissed*

PS Verant give us some more zones. Some for clerics to EXP group with CH, and undead cleric zone to EXP -- hell PLEASE give them an undead quad kite spell to use here. Some for melee to solo, some for dire's to charm. Some for druids to quad, some for wiz to quad, some for a group with any preist healer, BALANCE VIA CONTENT.

Moonfire is not easy to get. If you didn't buy yours from Novae...you got yours because Ashborne Alliance got very lucky and you were one of, what three? druids that were in that alliance with any sort of regular attendance.
I have to agree with this one. I'm on the same server and I've never seen Moonfire for sale. I have it and I still check for it occasionaly just because I'm the only druid in my guild that has it and I know others are looking for it. Why do I have it? Because of all the times we've actually managed to make it first on the rhags in the big race to get them, we have seen moonfire drop a grand total of once I goot moonfire while the other druid got remove greater curse.

Frankly 20k is chump change for a 60 druid and takes little more time to solo farm than getting a couple AA points
I also know that 20K is definatly not chump change. That's the most I ever had at one time and that took me a year to save up. Guess where it went. Into the PoTC earring quest skill ups so I'm flat broke again.

I can also add in:

ROTG for 5-15k
Remove Curse: 3-5k
Remove Greater Curse: 15-20k

Don't mean to derail the thread, but does Remove Curse really sell for 3k? I bought it off of someone for 50pp before the bazaar went live. Seemed like a reasonable price. ???

There are definitely tradeable higher end melee weapons. Not the best ones, but decent ones.

Swiftblade of Zek for instance has better than epic ratio and is tradeable.

Not Primal no, but there are definitely good options for melees with money.

Don't mean to derail the thread, but does Remove Curse really sell for 3k? I bought it off of someone for 50pp before the bazaar went live. Seemed like a reasonable price. ???

There just aren't many copies of either spell floating around. Since bazaar has been live, I have *never* seen Greater for sale, and have only seen regular Remove Curse appear twice (4k and 12.5k).

Why the disparity in pricing? Well, as with most druid/luclin spells, people tend to be very shrewd about assigning a price; they do a search to see if anyone else is selling it, and if not, they throw it on the market for an insane amount.. sky's the limit! They know there's going to be at least one person who doesn't yet have the spell but has some extra plat and wants a "complete" spell book. Those types are the same who immediately bought the entire new line of group skin buffs (e.g. protection of wood) in spite of knowing they would never be casting them at their level. /ponder

I'm happy for you to have only paid 50pp, but that was definitely an exception. I'd venture to say the person who sold it to you either had a very kind heart, or was gratified to sell a spell for reasonable price after having paid too much for some of their own spells (more likely if it was a fellow druid), or simply didn't realize he/she could get more in spite of RC only being a 39th level spell.

Many people are opportunistic, and if they think someone would be willing to pay 10k for a spell, they'll certainly try to charge that much. Some call it "supply and demand" and some call it "price gouging" or "taking advantage of fellow players." Not saying supply/demand is a bad thing in itself, but I do think folks could be a little nicer about it, knowing how screwed up NPC spell drops are... of course some on this board have called me a communist for such absurd notions. /shrug

~Firemynd

5k on Tunare often a copy at the Bazaar, have never seen Remove Greater Curse.

Also Moonfire there about half the time Moonfire for 20k.

Seen Mask of Stalker (thats the $$ one right?) yesterday for the first time in a long time for 27k.

Spirit of Eagle is down to 1k on the low end now.

20k isn't chump change if you haven't been designating yourself group looter for much of your pre-raiding career, and/or if you haven't spent a sizable chunk of your druid life farming lowbie tradables and port-whoring for plat.

Go read the moonfire thread, not only can it maybe be gotten from the vamps in tenebrous you can EASILY make 2kpp an hour there. There are tons of soloable mobs that drop 5 and 10kpp items, and then you have tradeskills which you can make a ton of money with.

Can people MAKE money port whoring? I never tried, I was too busying getting XPing in Cobalt Scar and Sebilis and made well over 100kpp going from 49 to 60 with 0 farming. Quad, sell gems for 50pp each, hug the othmir, fish for cod while you med, tailor something, repeat.

And if a monk can't the Horn of Chaos...well he can get the Fist of Acrylia, or any number of other weapons which are basically as good.

And... for the most part drop off the SAME MOBS that drop moonfire. So what is your point? That you should have your TOP SPELLSl for less work than meleers should get a decent weapon? Mmm'kay.

A druid missing spells is missing a key portion of that which makes him a druid, and if you're missing Moonfire...well the next closest thing to Moonfire is Frost. That's quite the leap in power.

Or blizzard which is often on par or better than moonfire. And on the VAST majority of mobs fire hits as well, or with our debuffs better, than cold, and comparing to wildfire is appropriate.

You are not elite. I know a slew of damned fine, good, druids who have completed more content than you (more "uber&quot;) , who think 20k is a whole buttload of cash.

@#%$, my dick isn't the biggest, let me go cry in the corner a minute. Okay back.

Moonfire is not easy to get. If you didn't buy yours from Novae...you got yours because Ashborne Alliance got very lucky and you were one of, what three? druids that were in that alliance with any sort of regular attendance.

Pretty sure all 4 druids have moonfire, all have stalker, we've sold recovery for, like, ever. Our meleers though are still after decent weapons. Heh, Valoran was bitching too many moonfires were dropping =P

Please tell me what I am doing wrong in which I have never had 20k to my name?

You don't got to zones with named in them, click track for nameds, and sell the loot. On your way to Ssra, click track see if the heirophant is up and you can make 5kpp right htere. Heck, just go to CT, everyone's choice for best XP zone, and get in the group for the boots or earring, 1 in 6 you win them, it will happen eventually. 70kpp for the boots 100k+ for the earring. Tradeskills! I've made a some money off the robes while upping my tailoring, for those with high tailoring or smithing they can rake in some serious cash, or could have, the initial flood is somewhat over.

I mean really. Even in fungus grove you should make about 1kpp per AA point per person just selling the crap the mushrooms drop, more if you do the callers. Lower level druids leveling on hoppers or grimling are making a @#%$ fortune selling the hides and acrylia.

L1ndara,

Why is it that you simply cannot comprehend that others do not have the same opportunities to obtain these drops?

There are "many" level 60 Druids that are "not" in tier 1 guilds and on many servers these items or camps are either too hard for the average guiild, are perma camped by the large guilds or when they can get in a group/raid to do them the spell does not drop.

You make it sound like every single time these mobs are killed a copy of Moonfire drops.

You also seem to trivialize how long it takes to gain an aa point. Many people do not play 20-40 hours a week. There are casual players who play a few hours a day on average.

I gain an aa point about once every week or two. To some that is pretty pathetic and to others that is average casual play. Some weeks I play more, some weeks I do not even log in.

By your figures I will be able to gain 20k if I sit in FG for 20 weeks pulling the same mobs over and over. I don't think so.

Now to others they can get 20k in 2-3 weeks because they play more and/or do not mind endless mindless repetative pulls.

While I do not fault others for playing to excess as that is their right I would ask that others do not assume that every plays the same as them or that those who play less are in some way undeserving of their spells.

I had thought that Verant put in the anchient (sp?) line of spells to reward those casters who put extra effort into the game.

I object to farming. I object to camping mobs for no other purpose than to obtain items to sell to others and possibly taking away a camp from someone who can use that item or gain exp from the kill.

IMHO this is the very reason some prices are so high. People/guilds take camps to obtain items for no other purpose than to sell them.

Nothing wrong with this if the camp is unused but in most cases with rare items (need I even bring up the dragon situation?) the guilds that have people home during the day when most people are in work/school win the race.

The only other way to obtain these rare drops is via pickup groups. I'll log on tonight and see if there are any "moonfire" mob pickup groups and if they would not mind me tagging along just to abtain a 20k spell that they could otherwise sell :)

Don't mean to derail the thread, but does Remove Curse really sell for 3k?
On Xegony in the bazaar, 2 copies for Remove Curse are up for sale. One for $8k and the other for $9k.

I've never seen Mask of Stalker nor Remove Greater Curse for sale. Moonfire goes for 23-30k the few times I've seen it for sale.

Heck, just go to CT, everyone's choice for best XP zone, and get in the group for the boots or earring, 1 in 6 you win them, it will happen eventually. 70kpp for the boots 100k+ for the earring.
There is no way I'd go in the lotto for either of these items to sell unless everyone in the group already had that which they would use. It would kill me to be in a group and have to random against someone who was going to turn around to sell either the boots or earring. Besides, I don't know too many pick up groups that do these camps. Maybe your server is different.

On my server, those camps are held essentially 24/7 by one person who six-boxes. (I am sure he sleeps sometime, but when awake, he is in the CT sewers)

Why is it that you simply cannot comprehend that others do not have the same opportunities to obtain these drops?

And how can people not comprehend that the entire game is founded on character progression and spells are just another part of that. If someone raids, or if someone farms, or tradeskills, or resells they get "rewarded" with moonfire, just like they get levels for farming xp. Unlike meleers we have those options, meleers HAVE to raid since almost everything they're after is NODROP.

You make it sound like every single time these mobs are killed a copy of Moonfire drops.

Newp. I said probably 5+ druid spells drop per week. It would be nice if it was higher, and it would be nice if there were farmable mobs that could drop it, if it took less XP per level, if there weren't key quest timesinks etc. etc. But you're in their world now and they want to keep you there.

The sad thing about the 6-box guy you mention...I am sure that is a well paying (though pathetic) job.

I am sure he makes about 200 or 300 american $ on a drop, or sells the items for plat which he exchanges at his local Fleet Bank / EBay type site for american $.

Sorry bout your server that is weak.

Not weak



Tottering with age.



The crowding is ridiculous, and the number of level 60 toons passeth all belief.

Come on over to Rallos Zek! Seems like no matter what, the population stays about about 1500-1700 average online at peak times. It's been that way for years.

Somehow things have a way of regulating themselves on the only True EQ PvP server.

Wyte Psycnosis <Ordo Malleus>
60 Dooid - Rallos Zek

'On my server, those camps are held essentially 24/7 by one person who six-boxes. (I am sure he sleeps sometime, but when awake, he is in the CT sewers) '


I think you are exaggerating here ..

There are plenty of times the said person isn't holding and hogging the Camp ...

why it's a problem that some of your spells cost a few thousand pp. I can't think of any class which doesn't need to make a choice between raiding and spending thousands of pp on spells or gear in order to reach the pinnacle of their abilities.

The class with a legitimate grievance here is shaman. The drop rates on Malo and Torpor have allegedly been increased... but you try finding them.

Melees do not have it easy. Those of you with melee alts will know what it costs to gear up a warrior (or whatever) to the extent where they have the same kind of equipment as the other warriors who are out there LFG.

These are the prices of the class-essential dropped Luclin spells for a cleric, in the bazaar, on the Xev server as I recorded them last night.

Blessing of Aegolism, level 60, 30,000pp. (and 42pp every time you cast it /sigh)
Blessed Armour, level 58, 7,250pp.
Judgment, level 56, 8,500pp.

I haven't included Remove Curse (because it's trivial to get) or Greater Remove Curse (because I can't foresee a situation in which I actually need it - you certainly don't need that in an xp group... it's a raid spell, so if you're in a raiding guild, wait in the queue for them to obtain it for you, and if you aren't, live without it.)

Well, to put it in perspective... We've seen 2-3 times the number of BoA drop than moonfire, all our shaman have torpor/malo, pretty sure all our clerics have BAoA. I think all our druid mains have Natures Recovery. We've had moonfire drop twice.

You're also more likely to get BoA bought for you from the guild than a druid is moonfire :p

I've never seen moonfire for sale in the bazaar, BTW.

-Kolen

You're also more likely to get BoA bought for you from the guild than a druid is moonfire

Your guild's practises must be different from mine... my guild doesn't buy Blessing of Aegolism, but we have bought Malo. (This is probably because we kill things that drop Blessing, while we don't kill things that drop Torpor or Malo much.)

And your shamans might all have Torpor and Malo (I think most of ours do as well) but that's only because we're talking about spells from two expansions ago and people have had plenty of time to farm for them.

Think of it like this:- comparing prices of shaman spells that entered the game with the RoK expansion and druid spells which entered the game with SoL, which is the more expensive ?

This is not a "my spells are harder to get that yours" debate. I only mentioned Druid spells as this is a Druid board.

The spell situation is equally bleak for many if not all of the classes.

Most guilds would help fund the purchase of C3 or Blessing of Aegolism because of what it does for the guild overall. C3 costs can be recouped if you wanted. On Eci a hit of C3 costs from 100-150p per cast!

Few guilds will help a Druid purchase all/any their level 60 spells.

I know there are more rare spells but what is the point saying this spell is 20% more rare than that spell.

They are all too damn rare!

I'm just not buying into the Melee argument. The only way it would be comparable was if post 50 we got about 20-30 spells per level.

Some would be vendor, some common drop, some rare and some ultra rare.

No caster would have them all like melee classes do not have every weapon they can equip.

Another thing to point out is that all high level weapons at the most have a level 51+ requirement to equip. Want to put level requirements on weapons from 51-60?

That uber weapon drops. You are level 56 and it has a level 59 requirement. Awwww too bad. Bank it and level up *smiles*

And make sure that there are only 4-5 weapons TOTAL per level that you class can equip. That means that there are only a total of 50 high level weapons that your class can use in the entire game from level 51-60.

Now try and imagine the competion.

Only then will we have a true apples to apples comparison.

Please stop bringing armor into this. Last time I checked even casters had to equip armor. Our armor simply serves a differnent purpose. We are looking for +wis/Int and +mana while melee classes might be more concerned with AC and other melee oriented stats.

The Moonfire discussion is being exxagerated; by the poll on this very site over half of the druids replying have the spell. I would say that does not hold true for Blessing of Aegolism and Clerics or Shamans and Torpor. Every class has spells that are hard to get and/or expensive, thats just the way Verant set it up. Usually upon the next expansion they ease it up some but in the cases of certain spells they just stay rare. Its cruddy but its true. If you cant tolerate it /feedback is the best way to get it changed from everything Ive heard.


Belkram

All that poll shows is that half the druids who frequent here and bothered to vote have the spell. Perhaps a more interesting poll would be to find out who the average DG reader is, whether they are guilded, what sort of tier guild they are in, level, aa's, etc.

I think you'll find that the average DG reader tends to be better equipped than the average druid.

Tia

"Somehow things have a way of regulating themselves on the only True EQ PvP server"

I have played to lvl 54+ on TZ, RZ and SZ. RZ is by far the bluest of the pvp servers. PvP is non existant on it compared to the others. So I wouldn't go around saying stuff like this, heh.

The Moonfire discussion is being exxagerated; by the poll on this very site over half of the druids replying have the spell. I would say that does not hold true for Blessing of Aegolism and Clerics or Shamans and Torpor.

I don't know a 60 shaman without Torpor and I know a lot of shamans. I know 1 who doesn't have malo yet.

I think all the dozen or whatever clerics that ever actually log in for more than 3 hours a week, including 2boxers, in the alliance, have group aego. It's been dropping since day 1 of Luclin and the majority of clerics have it. Moonfire only more recently got put on drop tables, I expect in a few more months people will stop bitching about it's rareity because they'll all have it.

Everytime you go in Bazaar plese be kind and do an OOC and direct people to the Great Saphoryte... Don't allow people to be tricked by the Scam that is the Remove Curse rip off.

Please elaborate on the Remove Curse rip off.

Apparently he thinks that it is a rip-off to spend a lot of plat on a spell that drops off a mob a level 60 can solo. He forgets that the time necessary to get a particular spell to drop can drive the price as much as anything. If enough people want the spell, and it drops rarely, then the price will be high. With a lot of guilds getting to the point where they want their priest types to be able to remove curse, I imagine the need is high. And after killing 20 Great Saphros before finally seeing the spell drop, the rareity is high as well. I would have paid 10K to avoid having to waste the time checking up on it again and again and again....

Gimli, its a common drop of a gimp mob.

Not a common drop, druid in my guild took about 8 kills to get his copy, and it's like a 2 hour spawn, so not too trivial a camp. I just paid the 1500p for it in the bazaar. Don't know if i'd pay much more, but I certainly didn't consider it a rip off.

-Kolen

First post really had potential and could have started a great discusion, but once again it turned into something completely different and with no value at all.

I have been reading this board for a very long time and never posted at all.

I enjoyed the good info and to see what other druids did.

Lately every single thread gets hijacked by the minority that cant understand the game is about progression.

Yes those in bigger guild or those with more playtime or higher lvl will have stuff/spells you cant get as easily.

L1ndara seems to be playing the Highend game that only 10% reaches, and ofcourse his post will reflect that.
But shouldnt those 10 % have a place here to get info and to discuss their problems.
The problems he mentions will after all effect you if you keep playing so dont derail it.

He probarly reached lvl 60 without the Luclin spells being in game yet, so why are most of the posts about those.

you should be more interrested in what he says about spells, we should have had at much earlier levels and the absolutely horrible manaregen we have during lvl 50 to 60(is still bad at 60) compared to other classes.

I wish my first post was a happier one, but i simply got irritated about 4 pages with gibberish after 1 good post.

Daser
Lvl 60 Druid
Arch Overseers
Bristlebane

Lately every single thread gets hijacked by the minority that cant understand the game is about progression.


Who is the minority? Have any numbers to back up who this minority is? If you are referring to the Moonfire poll it is VERY unscientific as anyone can vote whether they are a Druid or not. If we take it as truth then over 40% of level 60 Druids cannot find Moonfire or caanot afford 20+k.

Who said that this game is about progression? I think it's about roleplay and interaction between interesting people much like you sit across a table and play a game. Some think otherwise but the last time I checked Verant did not declare a way to "win" and beat EQ.


Yes those in bigger guild or those with more playtime or higher lvl will have stuff/spells you cant get as easily


I agree 100% and this is why Verant put in the anchient (sp?) line of spells. These are supposed to be uber rare along with the MANY uber Druid items that only members of large raid guilds get. How does this apply to our regular spells such as Moonfire?


L1ndara seems to be playing the Highend game that only 10% reaches, and ofcourse his post will reflect that.
But shouldnt those 10 % have a place here to get info and to discuss their problems.
The problems he mentions will after all effect you if you keep playing so dont derail it


So we need a separate "uber" section of the message board so that the "riff raft" who comprise the 90% of level 60's who are not members of elite high end guilds will not "hijack" a thread?

I agree with much of what he said. I do not agree that aa points boost our healing by 50% (Verant seems to agree) and keep in mind that VERY VERY few members of these high end guilds came here in open support of our issues.

For the most part they were already in a strong guilds, did not have problems getting groups or their spells and since there were very few Druids in upper level guilds they had a roll on raids for the 1-2 spots that were needed.

All this time certain Druids hung in the back not saying a word or if they did it was to say that "they" had no issues so "all" Druids should be ok. We even had some Druids hinting that we were in some way lacking in skill if we could not heal on raids.

When pressed they came out and stated that they had a million aa points, Heal 3 Mana 3 ect... as well as FT15 and "assumed" we all had that stuff.

Now all this time we are called "whiners" and other such names but this time we stuck together and either got Verant's attention or verified what they were already looking at.

Verant comes out and tests a great new heal and you know what these same Druids say?

This spell is no good. They will not use it. It will not help on raids and they even agree with the Druid bashers saying they had no part in the petition or debate!

When this spell is put in they will of course use it. We did all the work. Took all the flack while they sat in the wings not wanting to make waves.

I'm sorry that I seem a bit upset. You see I am in that 90% who have played my Druid since '99 with no alts. I spent long hours trying to further the cause for "all" Druids and when I'm told that the 90% do not deserve to play the same game it makes me sick.

It just struck a nerve. I'm sorry for the tine of this post but...

NO ONE IN THIS "GAME" IS BETTER OR WORSE THAN ANOTHER BY VIRTUE OF THEIR LEVEL, EQUIPMENT OR GUILD!

I judge people by their character and not what fictional items they may have equipted on their fictional character in a fictional game.

This is not directed at any one person just the very idea that some of us in this game are in some way unworthy.

I agree 100% and this is why Verant put in the anchient (sp?) line of spells. These are supposed to be uber rare along with the MANY uber Druid items that only members of large raid guilds get. How does this apply to our regular spells such as Moonfire?

You're making a distinction between the velious and kunark spells which were all mob dropped and the luclin 60 spells which are also mob dropped. I don't really completely agree with the distinction. While easy now with velious+ gear and spells the kunark mobs that dropped the hard to get spells spells weren't easy at the time. My Mask of the Hunter and Form of the Hunter both came from dragons that at the time were very comperable to what stalker is dropping from today. I believe it was my Legacy of Thorn came from VP or Queen Bathezid which while a single group or at most two group thing now was definetly a raid back then.

The only real distinction I see is the rate they enter the game. Queen is, what, at most an 8 hour spawn? And Emperor I think dropped MOST of the same spells dragons dropped, or did he only drop the 2nd tier spells like the chardok royalty? The dragons however are 7ish day like a lot of Luclin. And I really don't like how long the spawn rate is on the boss mobs, on crowded servers it's just stupid. On the other hand Luclin boss mobs have a life expectancy of the time it takes to clear to them +15 minutes where as the Kunark stuff usually stuck around a while.

Just be glad you aren't paying 100kpp for Moonfire like more than a few shamans did for Malo, a "regular" spell, or it doesn't drop from only Aary and Tormax and from them only 1 time in 10 tops like Dementing Visions. Or Garrisons, only off emperor and only something like 1 time in 3.

This spell is no good. They will not use it. It will not help on raids and they even agree with the Druid bashers saying they had no part in the petition or debate!

The spell won't have the effect on the game which VI said they intend it to have. That pretty much makes it a bad spell even to VI. While YES it's better than what druids currently have, and for many uses it's phenomenal (my manastone will go back to my druid) that doesn't mean overall it's good, it simply means we've had to put up with too much @#%$ for too long.

The spell won't have the effect on the game which VI said they intend it to have. That pretty much makes it a bad spell even to VI. While YES it's better than what druids currently have, and for many uses it's phenomenal (my manastone will go back to my druid) that doesn't mean overall it's good, it simply means we've had to put up with too much @#%$ for too long.


IMHO this spell will allow 2nd and 3rd tier guilds a chance to do limited raiding. I agree that the large guilds who already have tons of clerics would not see as much use but then again these are the same people who stated that Druids were fine. *smiles*

The rest of the guilds are so short clerics (all the high level guilds have sucked most of them up) that raids are cancelled or not even planned due to not having enough clerics.

This one spell will allow the rest of us to play the game also.


Just be glad you aren't paying 100kpp for Moonfire like more than a few shamans did for Malo, a "regular" spell, or it doesn't drop from only Aary and Tormax and from them only 1 time in 10 tops like Dementing Visions. Or Garrisons, only off emperor and only something like 1 time in 3.


Price it at 20k or 900k it matters not the price to players who cannot afford either. Having one issue wrong and the other issue "more" wrong does not make either situation "right"

This is not a Druid only issue. Many classes have certain spells being held hostage.

Verant either wants very few copies of these spells in the game (I thought these were supposed to be the ancheint spells) or they want everyone to eventually get them.

What is happening is that spells are being held hostage. Even when a reasonable person places a spell up for sale in the bazaar for a fair price the greedy SOB's buy it up fast (many large guilds have permanent toons in the bazaar 24/7) and then raise the price thus keeping the price high.

Now for sure not all uber guilds do this. Many will sell the spells for fair prices in private (they know some @#%$ will just buy it in the bazaar cheap and resell it for a killing) but for every guild that is fair you have 10 who are banking the spells, giving them to alts who are 10 level too low to use them or making a killing selling them for wild prices.

Either way the result is the same. You either have to "know" someone to even buy it for a reasonable price or play the farm game for a LONG LONG time or be in an uber guild.

For the casual player who plays 4-10 hours a week (many people fit in this catagory) who have played for years and now is level 60 there is little hope of obtaining anything.

It's certain players who have decided that "casual" players have no right to the best gear. While casual players might take forever to obtain good items they should be able to at least have a chance to eventually obtain them.

Farming to obtain plat is not an option for most. If you play this game casually then you are playing for fun. You do not want to have to do endless boring and unfun camps for months just to eventually obtain enough plat to buy a single item.

Now before you get me wrong and think that I am inferring that casual players should be able to get Dragon type gear I am not. I'm talking about middle of the road gear and ALL our spells. Spells and gear are different beasts here.

There is no substitute for Moonfire other than Frost. While the casual player might never obtain their epic there are many items in the game now that they can obtain that are very nice also. The casul player might never obtain a Heal 3 item but they can obtain a heal 2 and if Verant would fix the darn focus items so that 1 was 5%, 2 10% and 3 15% then it would all make sense.

I still want to meet the nut *smiles* who thought out the focus system :)

IMHO this spell will allow 2nd and 3rd tier guilds a chance to do limited raiding. I agree that the large guilds who already have tons of clerics would not see as much use but then again these are the same people who stated that Druids were fine. *smiles*

Actually it's the reverse. Furor's take on the classes that was linked in a thread here a while back tossing DRU and BST into the completely broken category is pretty much the consensus.

What is happening is that spells are being held hostage. Even when a reasonable person places a spell up for sale in the bazaar for a fair price the greedy SOB's buy it up fast (many large guilds have permanent toons in the bazaar 24/7) and then raise the price thus keeping the price high.

This is still identical to the kunark spells which you consider "regular" spells. The only real difference is these spell only recently got put on normal loot tables. I'd have agreed with you back when moonfire didn't really drop at all and stalker only off week long spawn Greig, but as it is, they're, for the most part, entering the game the same as the "regular" spells have, and if you complain about moonfire and stalker being drop spells you're going to have to complain about hunters and all the other classes' spells too. I'm more willing to complain about retard guilds continually blowing Shei and particularly Doomshade spawns because they're too damn greedy to back off when they don't have enough people online.

Or blizzard which is often on par or better than moonfire

Negative.

Blizzard takes longer to deal the damage, has a much longer recast time, and frequently looses 1/3rd or more of its damage.

And on the VAST majority of mobs fire hits as well, or with our debuffs better, than cold, and comparing to wildfire is appropriate.

at least 80% of the mobs I've killed in the past 3 weeks have been highly fire resistant or immune...

Heh, Valoran was bitching too many moonfires were dropping =P

That's not what I heard ;) .

So what is your point? That you should have your TOP SPELLSl for less work than meleers should get a decent weapon? Mmm'kay.

That I should have my spells for less work than meleers should get one of the dozen "top" weapons...15/19 isn't that worse than 15/18. Frost sucks @#%$ compared to Moonfire. If you can't figure that one out../shrug.

@#%$, my dick isn't the biggest, let me go cry in the corner a minute. Okay back

We knew that...despite multiple insinuations to the contrary.


You don't got to zones with named in them, click track for nameds, and sell the loot. On your way to Ssra, click track see if the heirophant is up and you can make 5kpp right htere. Heck, just go to CT, everyone's choice for best XP zone, and get in the group for the boots or earring, 1 in 6 you win them, it will happen eventually.

Sorry en route to raids...I don't stop to see if a named is up that I can solo. I'm usually helping people get to the raid or getting there myself so I can deal with some other things.

And yeah...just get in the group for the boots or earring hahaha.

Some of us are guilded and don't have the luxury of spending all day sitting in CT waiting for a chance at the ubar group...and have better things to do /shrug.

Granted, I have the plats I need for my spells so I guess I can't complain /shrug.

if you complain about moonfire and stalker being drop spells you're going to have to complain about hunters and all the other classes' spells too. I'm more willing to complain about retard guilds continually blowing Shei and particularly Doomshade spawns because they're too damn greedy to back off when they don't have enough people online.


I use Moonfire as an example. I also believe that ROTG, Mask of the ____ and a few others as well as many spells for other classes are too damn rare after the first few months in the game.

We can sit and complain all day about certain guilds and their farming practices but as long as (for example) 5 Moonfires drop in a week in which 10+ people make level 60 there will NEVER be enough to go around.

On a side note I love how people justify why they are greedy. It amounts to this:

"I have to be greedy because if I'm not greedy then someone else will be"

ROTFL

Just because you can do something does not mean that you should or that it is the right thing to do. This is what nearly killed Manaburn. A bunch of idiotic Wizards (all classes have them) saw a method to make a quick buck and nearly ruined it for everyone much like those original Druid Kiters way back when who used to train entire zones in their attempt to kill faster. That is why our dots were originally nerfs and why Manaburn almost got the nerf bat.

1% idiots ruin it for the other 99%

Just a quick comment on this new heal.

Most tier 2 and 3 guilds are short on clerics to the point in which they cannot raid many high level areas at all. Very often they have one cleric on a raid and if this cleric had to leave - raid over.

WHile I agree that Druids will never be able to take the place of a Cleric and without someone to rez (I see Paly's becoming VERY popular for their 90% res) certain zones/mobs will still be unobtainable it's raids that the uber guilds would not ever consider doing anymore that others still dream of.

There are many guilds who cannot even do a Jugg raid as they lack the healing. This is hardly an upper level raid but without a Cleric many guilds cannot do this raid.

The same goes for many zones/mobs. You cannot even zone pull in Ssr Temple without a Cleric. After this enters the game you can with a Druid.

Now people will always be able to point out that so and so on this or that server can do it but I'm speaking for the majority of players and not the exceptions.

As far as the raid guilds go this heal also helps but in a lessor way. Their raids will become more efficient and Druids will be able to take on different rolls if needed.

It's a win-win situation for all but I still maintain that for the most part the Druids who spoke loud and hard for this cause were "not" the Druids in the uber guilds. Those Druids (not all of course) were the ones who said everything was just fine the way it was.

Well let's hope this new heal goes in tonight. I know I would like to play with it *smiles*

Or blizzard which is often on par or better than moonfire

Negative.

Blizzard takes longer to deal the damage, has a much longer recast time, and frequently looses 1/3rd or more of its damage.

Blizzard is our highest damage per second cast spell, and is often the primary spell I use because it will often outdamage moonfire per point of mana on debuffed mobs. On raids tears of prexus / torrent of poison / blizzard are primary damage dealing spells right up there with ice spear, moonfire and ice strike. You should be useing it.

The same goes for many zones/mobs. You cannot even zone pull in Ssr Temple without a Cleric. After this enters the game you can with a Druid.

I've seen monks solo first floor mobs. Shamans can solo first floor and enchanters can with difficulty. I've duoed 2nd floor with a monk including Commander Zawhatshisface and it's not like I'm running around with Ancient: Druid Complete Heal or something, and the monk is a typical tier 2 on Karana. The monks equipment though is the big difference, I couldn't do it (commander) with a tier 3 monk with or without the new heal because of agro, with a warrior, maybe.

Most tier 2 and 3 guilds are short on clerics to the point in which they cannot raid many high level areas at all. Very often they have one cleric on a raid and if this cleric had to leave - raid over.

Most tier 2 guilds probably have as many or more clerics on raids than tier 1. It's a lot easier CHing tanks with 8k hps than ones with 6k! Tier 1 might have 2 clerics for Derakor, Tier 2 will have 3 or 4, Tier 3 will need 4 to 6 just like a Tier 1 will need 4 to 6 when they're doing a harder mob. No matter how you look at it, gimp CH isn't going to help a whole lot here. The only thing it really lets druids do is handle rampage damage or AE damage on a group, or be primary healer in a group where people don't expect to need rezzing.

Most tier 2 guilds probably have as many or more clerics on raids than tier 1.


Is this true? I was in a tier 2 guild and we were "lucky" if we had 1 cleric show up at many raids.

How many people are in tier 2 guilds that do not have a shortage of clerics?

I haven't been playing much, but I know my guild has been having issues for a few months at least where raids don't happen cause enough clerics aren't logged on. I think we're in the process of building some bot clerics. And next to that, we've been having warlord issues as well, 1-2 only many raids with 1 or both being botted sometimes. We are a tier 2 guild generally speaking.

valoran has never complained that too many moonfires were dropping. we are just now starting to get to the point that extras will be put up for sale soon. in fact, i am by far the oldest druid in the guild and just got my copy a little over a month ago, merely because those who still needed it werent there that night (i am not playing much so have tried to make sure the active druids got the new spells first).

and im doing my best to convince the guy who sells our spells to do so cheap on the druid spells =P

Quote:

c) Overall lack of sufficient healing in the game.

Atleast the last posts has been about this, so here is my 2 cents.

Cassea the uber guilds isnt stealing your clerics, they just need insane numbers of them to kill the next so called "uber mob" they havent killed before.

This is why we dont see this new heal as such a great improvement as you do.

New CH will not change how many Clerics these guilds need.
It wont relieve the death grip 1 class has on a guilds ability to raid efficiently.

If verant either retuned encounters so you didnt need 20 to 25 % of a raid to be clerics or Shared the real CH between more classes, then Uberguild01 could do with less than half of its clerics.

As it is today every cleric automaticly gets into almost any guild they chose, no matter if they are "nice, skilled, play alot, whatever"

Uberguild01 wants to have fun just as much as you do, which translates to "Not enough clerics, no fun"

If Verant found a real solution instead of this gimp CH, guilds like mine wouldnt need new clerics for years to come, and some of those we have currently would probarly leave for smaller guilds, because these guilds also would be able to raid quite a bit more.

The druid heal currently on Test will make alot of guilds stronger.
1.) Until they meet the Top Velious and luclin bosses and then they are back to square 1 , where you need craploads of clerics.
2.) Will make alot of changes needed to make Clerics desireble in groups again, because why group them if another class can do the same and dot, nuke, evac also.
3.) Flipside off this is point "A" in L1ndaras post.
Druids have really crappy sustained damage output and not much improvement to Clerics is needed before they again will be much better choice than us.

Cassea you dont feel us "Ubers" support druids and the druid petition.

That is simply not true, like you i want the game to be fun and the druid to be a welcome edition to both groups and raids again.

If the petition helped to get healing penalties and remove the snare effect on our epic and getting rid of the god knows how old 10% healing penalty, then i am gratefull for your work, but dont call it balancing.
It is broken content or faulths being fixed.

The healing effiecency needed to kill Luclin bosses is making us the new necroes.

Do you remeber how fast all the old Necroes vanished from raids when they where made into manawhores for the clerics?.

Atm when we go up against the hardest mobs, a druids role will be 1 of 3 things.

1. You are grouped with 5 clerics and are healing them while they eat rods.
You are OOM when mob is at 60 % health and you wont ever heal a person that is taking damage, just the clerics and you cant even do that good enough.

2. Same scenario as above instead it is 5 mages making rods to the clerics.

3. You have lost your temper and told your leaders that no way are you healing these anymore, because 1 more cleric could heal all 5, with Group CH cast 2 times during the fight or 1 shaman torporing them and he would even be able to cast slow and dots at the same time without going OOM.
Instead your leaders has put you as rampage healer(you feel lucky having this job and is trying to forget that 2,5 druids equals 1 cleric....atleast you are healing a melee accually taking damage from what you are fighting.)

To summ it up.

Druids only have fun at raids if there is an army of clerics present and your leaders really cant find anyone needing your heals.

I am forever gratefull that people here try to fix the druids one way or another.

I am just trying to explain that at top lvl our class has been dying out likes the necroes did before, and the new CH heal wont change it.

Funny thing is that the Dot stacking changes will probarly fix the necroes so there atleast will be room for some of them again on raids.
I know several on my server is dusting there old necro mains off again, but none is reviving there old druids.(except to PL there alts a few lvls more)

PS. First time kills with guild.

Ring of Vulak. 62 people. 14 clerics 3 shamans 3 Druids 1 Necro.
Emporer i Ssra. 76 poeple 16 clerics 3 shamans 2 Druids 1 Necro.

Do you see a trend?.

[/quote]Is this true? I was in a tier 2 guild and we were "lucky" if we had 1 cleric show up at many raids.

How many people are in tier 2 guilds that do not have a shortage of clerics?[/quote]

4 to 10+ depending on how much advance warning. Commonly at least 2 clerics are 2boxed or is an alt or someone else running them. =(

Karana probably has 8 tier 2 guilds that can kill AoW, and only 1 tier 1/2 guild. Would be nice if they installed a faulty fuse in the server and it reset every 56 hours so there would be some bloody mobs to kill.

8 tier 2 guilds that can kill AoW ??? Wow. Would you be so kind as to name those guilds please ? I play on karana too, I guess we don't agree on "tier 2" definition.

As far as I'm concerned, my guild always suffered from a lack of clerics. Everytime we got more than 3 56+, one or two of them left for a big raiding guild.

- Nightbane has killed AoW, is in VT and if isn't tier 1, will be if they don't disband or something.
- Novae has killed AoW and emperor
- Grey Hawke has killed AoW
- Fama/FK/BR has killed AoW, technically 2 guilds Fama and FK are seperate but since members seem to be in different ones each week... well call it 2 guilds. They're big enough.
- Valoran can easily kill AoW if they get their act together and stop doing dumb @#%$ like giving MT's Nature's Recovery instead of Divine Intervention and wasting debuff slots on it with stupid druid DOTs, wheee, Drones of Doom, why is our MT dieing and not the mob?
- Ashborne could kill AoW, if it was KGC they would
- Lance Dragon I'm assuming could kill AoW, they've done everything else in Velious except Vulak and have at least a decent chunk of their primal.

Thats 7 tier 2 and Nightbane. I think there is a 9th guild on NToV rotation, probably Diamond Edge or an alliance that if couldn't kill AoW, they're close enough that they may as well and after PoP's release they doubtless could. I think The Silent Watch monks are all running around in Shrouds of Immortality now too.

Apparently he thinks that it is a rip-off to spend a lot of plat on a spell that drops off a mob a level 60 can solo

Hmm I think it is a rip-off because there are normally 5 or 6 copies up at that price on TP, I have killed him 4 times ever and he dropped the spell every time, and he is not camped 90% of the time. We are talking about a really common level 30something spell here, 6-8k is silly. Many people are confused and think they have RGC, many other people know other people will be confused and are trying to take advantage of it.

I solo'd him at 52 when luclin came out, is kind of a joke as long as you clear all the bogglings first or else you get greenus swarmus interuptus.

On raids tears of prexus / torrent of poison / blizzard are primary damage dealing spells right up there with ice spear, moonfire and ice strike. You should be useing it.

Shamans use their rains spells because their nukes bite.

Druids use their nukes because their Rain spells are gimped.

Yes...if all three waves hit for full, its a nice spell. However, even on a cold susceptible, debuffed mob, you'll frequently loose a wave. If the mob would die from the wave(s) you loose the wave(s).

If there is more than one target...you do less damage to any single target (though potentially much more overall...I love using blizzard in AE groupings).

Blizzard has a nice long recast time. Is the spell useful? Yes, in many situations. Is it comprable to our nukes? No..apples vs oranges.

I've seen monks solo first floor mobs. Shamans can solo first floor and enchanters can with difficulty. I've duoed 2nd floor with a monk including Commander Zawhatshisface and it's not like I'm running around with Ancient: Druid Complete Heal or something, and the monk is a typical tier 2 on Karana. The monks equipment though is the big difference, I couldn't do it (commander) with a tier 3 monk with or without the new heal because of agro, with a warrior, maybe.

This is simply indicative with how rediculously overpowered monks and shaman are.

Besides, who hunts 1st floor Ssra other than key farming and clearing to real hunting spots?