View Full Forums : Raid leaders, how will you use the new druid heal?


Chronomis
08-23-2002, 11:56 AM
I'm curious what any druids (and visitors) who are raid leaders on a regular basis are thinking the raid use for the new heal will be. Do you think it can be used as a replacement for cleric heals? Does it have other uses you're looking forward to?

My own guild is just now reaching the point in the game where we're putting some serious effort into developing the skills needed to take out CH rotation mobs. My own efforts have played no small role in seeing us take this step, but I'm certainly no expert in this area--neither I nor my guild have accumulated much expertise in handling healing in some of the more difficult situations we've begun to encounter.

My feeling is that we can not use the new druid heal to replace a cleric complete heal rotation. We will be able to use it, however, to stretch the rotation a bit to make it last longer or work with fewer clerics. We could alternate clerics and druids in the rotation, perhaps putting the druids on a slightly shorter timer than the clerics and thereby wouldn't be exclusively dependent on clerics to have a viable raid healing force. We still wouldn't be able to do without clerics on the raid. The higher hit point buffs and the potential to make up for damage spikes of more than 3000 damage during the rotation would have to be there.

In the short run the new heal will really help my guild, from my point of view, in mopping up area of effect damage in situations where there's a lot of that but not so much need for a rotation. Druids will be able to take care of a much greater quantity of AoE damage before running out of mana.

Bobbun, 57 Rogue
Chronomis, 54 Druid

Stormhaven
08-23-2002, 12:03 PM
Seeing that we don't know exactly what the spell will do, or how much aggro it will generate, or if it would be worth using at all, I can honestly say I have no idea how we'll use it in raids :P

Seriena
08-23-2002, 12:13 PM
Probably ramapage tank healing. Take your rampage cleric off the rampage tanks and put a druid on them. Stick the now freed up cleric in the CH rotation or patching others as they need it for better mana/heal efficiency.

This heal won't help druids against ae mobs. You'll still run out of mana NT'ing and CB'ing your 5 group mates when they get hit with a 600 pt unresistable ae every few seconds.

Anyway, that's what I thought at first and one of the first things our main CH rotation cleric said to me "I'm sticking you on rampage tanks if you get that spell" ;)

Who knows though.

Nippo Pottomus
08-23-2002, 01:05 PM
Actually Seriena, assuming all the spells on test go live, in the AoE situation you suggested druids would be more suited to heal the MT. The new cleric HoT (basicly Group torpor with no snare) would be very successfull in fighting AoE's. If the AoE is faster then he can HoT, then through in a few group direct heals. On a trak raid with people taking over 1000dmg per round, a druids NT just wont keep up (and if you plan on using a 10 second cast time on anyone other then the MT your crazy) Even if you need 2 druids on the MT its much more efficient.

My big question is (assuming there are no changes to the CPH) will our new heal be good enough to be put into the CH rotation? I have never played a cleric into the high end game, however most clerics tell me in a CH rotation they hardly ever land for over 3000. The shaman heal may fall short, but could you stick druids right in the rotation? I really hope this is possible, because it will help alot of 2nd tier guilds explore much more content. Everyone knows clerics are the limiting factors on raids.

Fayne Dethe
08-23-2002, 01:09 PM
I dont see this spell in its current state helping high level guild raids much at all. The spell might now allow a druid to be primary healer in a group in CT without a slower, but it still wont be very efficient compared to choosing a shaman instead. As for raiding purposes, the current cap is way too low - yes the average CH might be 3k, but having it capped this low your MT or rampage tank can then easily die without the extra 4k leeway that CH gives. Some people's response is to then speed up the CH cycle, but that just defeats the purpose of trying to use a druid as a replacement cleric for either the main cycle tank or rampage tank.

So basically, I think I'd use this spell in an an xp group, but I dont see myself ever using this "CH" on raids that will most likely let the MT or rampage tank die. Better off dotting with WD, nuking, and patch healing group and quick healing during tank switches. Druid heals still would be lacking when it comes to trying to heal your group, and the new heal doesnt do an adequate job on healing main/backup tanks for high level raid boss mobs (sure might work for Vindicator but not Creator, AOW, etc). Either scrap the spell for a totally new heal spell, or raise the cap to 5k or higher while lowering the percentage.

Seriena
08-23-2002, 01:36 PM
I agree with that totally. This spell will help lower end guilds a lot more than higher end guilds. Not to say it's useless. I'm pretty excited about having this spell to heal my monk in exp groups. This is definately more of a xp group spell than a high end raiding spell...was just thinking of possible raid uses.

I don't think we'll be able to jump in a CH rotation on raids. I've done the ch rotation before (the typical not enough clr so play a bot toon syndrome) and the last time I did it someone handed our 2nd ch rotation clr a mod rod which changed his target for that ch round. I had to jump in, being the 3rd ch cleric, trying to cover. I ended up landing a 6k heal (freaked the mt out hehe) The clr after me was able to jump in on the timing with no troubles but if that would have been a druid jumping with this heal in the MT would have died on that heal or the next one since the cap is 2925 and the dmg being taken wouldn't have allowed for a full 10 s casting time to catch up.

The other thing to think about is aggro control..even though nobody wants to admit it, I do think that will be an issue.

Anyway, just some thoughts :)

MoonDancer
08-23-2002, 01:43 PM
I think this spell will be a huge help to high level raiding guilds. in a CH chain really if the Chs are landing for more then 3 or 4k something is prolly wrong with the chain.

I think this spell will put us in many varying rolls rampage healers not that we are already good rampage healers eliminates the need for a cleric in light of 2 druids one doing fast heals the other the 3k CH.

second is out of chain heals when a rogue gets to many repostes etc. we will excel here. Mages rodding down to make more rods. clerics in chain roding down all are perfect uses for this spell.

And yes like i said above a properly equiped druid will be just as good as any cleric in the chain.

i cant wait for this spell the possiblities it brings are awesome.:)

-MoonDancer

ElethiomelTimberfall
08-23-2002, 02:58 PM
The aggro point above is a very good one. If this spell does not have the aggro reduction that CH does, then it will not be usable like CH in rotations and such at all. In fact it may be hard to use very effectively at all outside of XP groups.

Personally I'm thinking it would be reasonable for it NOT to have the aggro reduction of CH, simply because it's NOT a CH, but more of an up-gunned regular heal. I am aware this view will not be popular :-)

FyyrLuStorm
08-23-2002, 03:02 PM
I thought that the agro reduction component was only to adjust for the 10K hps healed anomoly. That is, when originally entered, the spell added 10K's worth of agro to the cleric.

Please clarify, if my understanding is incorrect.

ElethiomelTimberfall
08-23-2002, 03:08 PM
I could be wrong too. I had thought that there was an overall reduction of aggro generated by the spell, not just the 10k bug. In other words, one CH for 5k generates less aggro than 10 superior heals. If this is not the case then I retract my observation.

ShadowfrostXev
08-23-2002, 05:40 PM
*cleric sticks nose in*

The aggro reduction issue isn't what's important here. I suggest you think like this.

You don't want to stick a 3k heal on anyone unless either (a) you completely trust your tank to hold aggro or (b) you have the AC/HP to deal with the possible consequences. If you have a good tank with good weapons whose taunt key is available for use (rather than greyed out because they're mindlessly mashing it every time it refreshes), and the tank is watching their computer rather than the telly, the mob will stay on the tank. If not, your screen fills up with red spam. It's that simple.

The relationship between CH-caster and tank is so trusting it's almost symbiotic. The tank trusts the CH-caster to cast the heal - you have to trust them right back.

Having said that, most clerics (after long and bitter experience of how this trust can be betrayed) aim between 1000 and 1250 AC and between 3000 and 4000 HP; I'm not sure how realistic these numbers are for a druid.

Seriena
08-23-2002, 05:46 PM
Those numbers are actually doable depending on the guild you're in. But, I wouldn't say that's what you depend on solely. DA has a lot to do with dropping agro. If it's an issue on raids I imagine enchanters can help with that a bit...just have to wait and see.

Aorion
08-24-2002, 11:37 PM
I'd have to agree with Shadowfrost on that. Because with a 10 second cast time, you have no control over your agro issue. That might be hard for some Druids to get used to at first, as your more used to being able to control your agro now. Alot can happen in 10 seconds to have moved you up or down the hate ladder.

I predict we'll be seeing many more Druids activly joining the Fix Taunt bandwagon.

Mikar
08-24-2002, 11:59 PM
For boss mob fights this will mean that druids can effectively

1 - Heal rampages for most fights (you dont let your rampage tank go low because you cannot affort low hp aggro)

2 - Heal rodding damage. Thus replacing a cleric/shaman that had this duty. Currently druids cannot perform this duty as they go oom.

3 - Heal off-tankers (tank-mez) in some cases.

4 - Heal "whiners" - ie, people that take the odd riposte and/or semi-slow AE damage - effectively.

5 - In some cases - even enter the CH order if not enough clerics for even that are present. This should be rare as druids can now effectively do the other jobs clerics used to apart from rezzing and CHO - but its definitely possible to let 2 druids replace 1 cleric in CHO.

So, I think ths will mean that clerics will be even more pushed into the CHO only role - because druids can do the other healing tasks now. Not complaining - just stating what I think will happen. This could be a problem for those clerics that dont have a rock sollid connection and hence cannot keep up with a fast CHO due to lag - as their other possible tasks are picked up by druids.

ambuithrig
08-25-2002, 01:42 AM
I'm mostly looking at healing AE dammage and the Rampage tank. Quick spot healing will not heal since this is a slow spell and will not help a bit on mobs that flurry.

Tremblant
08-25-2002, 07:56 AM
Honestly, this new heal won't really change the way I would assign druids and/or Shamans in groups. All this would mean is the tanks I assign the druids too heal would live longer.

Druid CH Rotation wouldn't really work, as usually the MT on higher end raids will usually need every extra HP that CH gives. And honestly, if it comes down too useing a Rotation, I usually need the druids extra nukeing power too finish the mob off.

Just my 2cp,

Kalinn
08-25-2002, 08:15 AM
the major addition for large raiding i see is this... druidCH = 2100+ mana for the rodding magi/cleric.

i also anticipate druids being put over the RT so that the clerics are freed up for rotation work.

Ennder
08-25-2002, 08:48 AM
The number change I would expect is having druids instead of clerics to heal off tankers in the high end luclin encounters. Usually when we do HP for example we only have 1 or 2 clerics to spare for the off tankers and nobody else really heals efficiently enough to do it. With this change druids will be able to do the job and will make this battle a lot easier for us. I would assume it would help with Shei and various other fights as well. Also help in small scale raids like when we do raids during the day with only partial raid strength. Little raids like tormax, vindi etc would need fewer clerics.

Racmoor
08-26-2002, 11:22 AM
I can get about 1020ish fully raid buffed. I still have several upgrades to make that will probably put me around 1070ish. That's just HoT level guild druid.

Racmoor

Panamah
08-26-2002, 06:46 PM
We'll probably use druids in the Cheal chain, depending on how the spell is implemented. We rarely have enough clerics online to cover it.

Geneze
08-27-2002, 06:26 AM
If this spell does indeed work like it looks like (can heal to full, if the toon has more than 25% hitpoints ;eft, and less than 2925 damage), I WILL be using it in my CH rotations.

It will not replace the clerics completely, but it will be used extensively. It will take some experimentation, but I'm thinking we'll probably end up with either a druid, cleric, druid, cleric, druid, cleric rotation, or a druid, druid, cleric, druid, druid, cleric rotation. This will free up more clerics for other duties, such as rampage heal, MoK and MoR (MoR is nasty to Enraging mobs, even if folks are quick to turn off auto-attack, the mob will take serious damage in the first round), and spot-healing for the rotation, to keep it going through problems.

Firemynd
08-27-2002, 07:31 AM
I didn't like the thought of being lumped into the CH chain, having heard clerics complain about how boring it is. Then I thought, hmm... CH rot isn't the whole raid, it's just for certain mobs, and in most cases, not even 10% of the raid's duration.

Plus, it would be less frustrating to be part of the steady healing chain on MT and have a cleric outside the chain, available to handle the extraneous damage my heals couldn't always keep up with. Less frustrating for me, less boring for the lucky cleric who escapes the CH chain for the first time in months. If/when the time comes, I bet my guild's clerics will be /randoming to see which one gets to do it. :P

Still, the new druid heal hasn't gone live, so we really need to wait and see what form it will actually take, before we start planning raid tactics around it. ;)

~Firemynd

Kalinn
08-29-2002, 08:29 AM
i think CH rots are actually a bad choice for where to put druids. we need to maintain the ability to be versatile, which you cant really be while stuck in a CH rot.

put us over RTs, over the secondary tanks, over the rodders. keep us where we can do our whole job, not just half of it (healing). remember the dot stacking change, suddenly we are better damage dealers as well as better healers.

the only thing im afraid of is that druids will get pigeonholed into the healing role even more tightly now and not given the freedom many of us currently have, the freedom to dot and throw nukes. the healing upgrades could turn out to be a curse more than a blessing if that were to happen.

Geneze
08-29-2002, 10:40 AM
In most guilds, it is a cleric in charge of the rotation, including who's in it.

You'll also find that many clerics are very spiteful.

Aorion
08-29-2002, 11:04 AM
True Geneze

But thats one area we've never been able to establish a monopoly on.

As to the raid CH rotation, a Test Cleric finally commented on the Druid heal and how it is affecting the server. Not going into all of it, but it works good on xp groups, but not being established in CH rotations for the reason Scirocco(sorry for the butchering there) stated about needing the Max at times vs. the avg heal. So far helps for grinding not for raids.

Edit- Actually I checked and i did spell tha name right. Wonders never cease.

L1ndara
08-29-2002, 04:00 PM
"the only thing im afraid of is that druids will get pigeonholed into the healing role even more tightly now and not given the freedom many of us currently have, the freedom to dot and throw nukes. the healing upgrades could turn out to be a curse more than a blessing if that were to happen."

It's better than the raid not happening because there aren't enough clerics which is fairly common.

We don't have the freedom to DOT as it is, 15 buff slots on the mob should typically leave no room for druid DOTs.

Sylphan2
08-31-2002, 02:10 PM
The alliance of guilds I'm part of is just starting to use CH chains. Our greatest accomplishment was to kill Dozekar in ToV -- we've succeeded only once -- and we got the Vindicator in Kael a couple times.

We don't have enough clerics. We WILL find a way to add druids to the CH chain.

The spell isn't actually live yet, but the plan is instead of a four-second CH chain with three or four clerics, we'll do a three-second chain going cleric-druid-cleric-druid. The CHs will sometimes be over 3k, but as long as we don't need over 3k twice in a row we'll be fine. We'll continue to use paladin LOH at the beginning of the fight before the CH chain is going, as that's worked well so far.

The ability to replace one cleric with two druids is a huge boon to us. Uber types may think replacing one person with two is a bad thing, but we look forward to it.

Scirocco
09-01-2002, 04:58 AM
We WILL find a way to add druids to the CH chain.

Replacing 1 cleric with 2 druids, and halving the druid CH rate (e.g., cutting 4 seconds to 2 seconds) should work. As long as the mana holds out....:)

Also, consider the rhythm of a mix CH rot. Clerics will still be casting at 4 seconds, while the druids in the rot will be casting at 2 seconds. Not sure if that will work very well....

Kalinn
09-01-2002, 07:12 AM
your druids can be casting at the same time as the clerics, you just double them up in the rotation slot. dont even need to change rotation speed.

clerica, druida/druidb, clericb, druidc/druidd, clericc, etc

this way the cleric goes, two druids both go at the same time to replace one cleric which will give the same healing power, cleric goes, two druids, and on down the line.

you could also stagger the druids during their rot slot, but that may require more thinking than some people are able to accomplish during a raid. for instance, if its a 5 second rotation, the druids go at 3 and 5 rather than just at 5.

Scirocco
09-01-2002, 07:20 AM
Kalinn, you last point is the one I was trying to make. Any rot that has variable times to cast for its members is just asking for trouble.

I do like the "double druid" approach, though. Two druids casting their 3K heal simulataneously.

Of course, that's a 6K CH at twice the cost. But if you have a surplus of druids....

Butor
09-01-2002, 01:32 PM
2nd tier guilds tend to have that druid surplus. It might change after balancing is done but until now they were not needed/wanted in numbers in raiding guilds ...

My guild has like 8 epic druids and again half more over lvl 54 ...

Kalinn
09-02-2002, 09:37 AM
the best way to do a staggered rotation where you have one druid casting earlier than the established rotation timing would be to put your very most reliable druids in those slots, and have them not using announcements for when they are casting. that would cause the least confusion for the others in the rot. but you better make sure thats a good druid in that slot to be able to keep their timing.

the double druid method would be the overall easiest. and yes it uses twice as much mana, but thats a hell of a lot better than the sixtuplet druid method we'd have to be using now to equal one cleric =P

kalatarain123
09-03-2002, 06:43 PM
To Sciroro
In ref to the Math your wondering on.
Ch 10 seconds
4 clerics MIN ( by formula) For using anything Pause 25 0r less
Pause 25=2.5 seconds
Cast time of Druid Ch is?

Looking for info.