I am repostig this because it took a while to write and I felt it is important info.

Bah! Clerics are too freaking uptight about this crap. The druid/shaman CH is a good thing. You have to realize that if the tanks out there are any good at all, this will hardly make a dent in their hitpoints. You are looking at about 41% (assuming the warrior has 7k hitpoints) of their hitpoints on uber encounters. Also, we have to cast the thing once and then cast another spell to get the tank to full health. That means we are at a disadvantage to NOT having a cleric in the group. Clerics still have the advantage. We are also losing a spell slot to yet another healing spell. So, to work out the numbers for you guys.

Lets look at a 3k hp tank. The max they can get healed for by that spell would be 2250 hitpoints. It costs 400 mana and 10 second cast time to get that tank to 2251 hitpoints assuming the heal lands at 1 hitpoint. Then to top up that tank a level 60 druid with Natures touch can heal 978 hp heal for another 400 mana and another 5.5 seconds.

That would top up the main tank to full hitpoints for a total of 800 mana 15.5 seconds of casting (not counting the spell refresh time). Two spells were used a level 54 "druid incomplete heal" and a level 60 spell natures recovery.

Now look at cleric... same scenario.

400 mana, 10 second cast time , heals for max 10500.
One spell. A level 39 complete heal spell.

Now I know with my druid if I had to do that to much I would be OOM along with snaring, debuffing, dotting, nuking, and buffing I would constantly be OOM.

Lets look at a 5k hp tank. The most a druid can heal them would be just under 2925 hp. Leaving 2074 hp left to be healed. Then TWO casts of natures touch for 978 for a total of 1956 hit points. Finally 1 cast of chloroblast for 428 hp would top him off fully.

Total mana used is 1375 (about 25 percent of my mana bar). Total time used is 21 seconds (again not including recast time between spells). That is 4 spells used, 1 level 54, 2 level 60, 1 level 55.

Now look at cleric... same scenario again.

Total mana used is 400. Total time casting the spell is (yep you guessed it) 10 seconds. Using 1 spell level 39 complete heal.

The important thing to remember is that IT IS NOT A COMPLETE HEAL!... it is an incomplete heal at about 3k heal. Clerics still have the advantage. We are also losing different spell slots. This means we cannot always debuff, snare, nuke, whatever. We take up approx four spell slots to do one spell at the high end game. Also, I know the numbers are crappy examples as far as a properly equiped level 60 warrior. We are not replacing you in the CH chain, we are still assist healers, and there is the advantage to get a cleric in the group because peeps always die, your hitpoint buffs are better, you can invul (DA/DB) with healing aggro, and you are a plate class and have higher AC. This is HELPING you. You not have druids/shaman as real backup healers. Verant calling it CH was the bad thing. They are should call it incomplete heal. Please to not feel worthless, and dangit stop wigging out over this!

Not speaking about raid tactics, as this spell is marginally useful during raids, but rather exp-groups.

If you have a half-decent tank with 5-6k hitpoints you could just cast this spell twice to fill him up relatively high on hitpoints. When I exp, I am frequently the healer in my group (usually consiting of 1 60 druid, 1 60 rogue, 1 60 enchanter, 1 60 shadowknight, 1 58 shaman, and either another shadowknight, rogue, monk, or wizard of any level). Buffed up without the cleric our shadowknight has probably 5,000 hitpoints (relative guess). My usual tactic is to just float the tank above 60% using Nature's Touch and keep everyone else as full on HP as possible, especially the enchanter, using Cblast. Now, I will probably let the tank fall all the way down to about 40% of his hitpoints before healing him using the new spell. This will be a LOT more mana effecient than my current tactics, and considering with my current tactic we hold King in seb with constant pulls and me at FM the entire time, we will be able to do even more pulls because I will be able to newk more.

And we thought King in seb was easy without a cleric, I don't even know that we'll need a cleric anywhere now, with the exception of raids and some areas of CT and Ssra and maybe deep Deep.

The spell does 75% or 3000 whichever is lower, but it doesn't do UP to the 75% hashmark on the hp bar, it does 75% of the total. If you heal someone who is at 25% when the heal lands you will FILL them up. At least that would make sense.

Its a cleric CH that is casted too early (or a 50% heal on a big tank that you cast at appropriate levels of hitpoints)....


Currently called Druid CH - test is stupid, but it is only temporarily called that because it closely resembles the cleric CH.

Stop thinking about it as a Complete Heal and start thinking about it as a 3k heal for 400 mana with a 10 second casting time.

Oh, and another thing. I have a crap pally friend with maybe 3500 hitpoints buffed at level 51 that I've had difficulty powerlevling due to my heals not being big enough anymore (without shaman slows) but this spell will help TONS.

I just need to get him better HP, STA, and AC gear now, heh.

I'm just curious. People are saying over and over that they won't need a cleric now. Isn't it rather funny that we're all real careful not to step on the ONLY class that was mandatory on most xp groups? I mean think about it. There was NO class like the cleric that was required for a group.

Now that these changes are going in, some clerics are upset because there may be times that they're lfg for a while. Guys, I just refuse to be upset about it. The whole purpose of different classes was that one could fill in for another. Now the deadlock that clerics have on groups is threatened and everyone is trying to sooth them that it's not true.

Guess what. You don't NEED a druid, you don't NEED a wizard, you don't NEED a necro, you don't NEED a mage, you don't NEED an echanter, you don't NEED a warrior, you don't NEED a paladin, you don't NEED a monk, you don't NEED a shadowknight or rogue. Now you don't NEED a cleric.

Welcome to the world the rest of us have been living in.

Racmoor

Thier complaint isn't that they'll have to go LFG.

Thier complaint is that they cannot do anything solo, so grouping is thier only option, unlike druids and shaman.

That's 2 different arguments. They definately have a legitimate concern.

Fairweather Pure

I'm sure the people here would be more sympathetic to that if they were asking for that to be addressed, rather than insisting on maintaining their "required" status. :p Especially given the recent commitment from Verant employees that group desirability and solo ability will be addressed.

VI's track record recently on actually looking at things they say they're looking at seems fairly good, though this hasn't always been the case. :)

-Kolen

As it stands now, before this spell is added, clerics aren't "required" for much beyond raiding, CT, and Ssra. Rogues have to go LFG even though they aren't "required' in groups, because to be honest they make horrible soloers. Same with Warriors.

There are those certain instances where druids/wizards are "requrired" due to evac, or where rogues are "required" due to locked doors that only they can open, or where clerics are "required" due to mobs that hit really hard and really fast.

All this change does is make druids more viable in groups than before. Will we replace clerics as a whole? Hell no. Will we replace them when we are LFG and they aren't? Yup~

Thier complaint isn't that they'll have to go LFG.

Thier complaint is that they cannot do anything solo, so grouping is thier only option, unlike druids and shaman.

That's 2 different arguments. They definately have a legitimate concern.

Tell that to warriors.

I grew up playing a warrior pre-kunark. If I didn't group...I didn't play. So I made a druid =D

On the other hand, I could give two ****s if Verant gives them stuff to let them solo better than they can now. More power to them. The their ability to solo and our ability to heal have no correlation.

Well another pretty valid complaint of clerics is they bring just about 0 to a group outside of healing. Also to the original poster, this spell doesn't heal you to 75% hps, it heals 75% of your hps. So on a 3k hp tank it brings him to full in one cast.

In a group of lvl 54 players I see no real reason to take a cleric now for a standard exp grind. For a more hardcore item camp you need a cleric still, for the better buffs and direct heals. But for a relaxed grind in say karnors a cleric is just a druid who can't regen, damage shield or snare, since tanks at lvl 54 do not generally have much over 3k hps. Until someone dies and needs a res at least Thats why so many people think this should be a lvl 60 spell.

I say give the clerics a method to improve group dps and leave druids with this spell though, its definetly something I think druids need to be able to heal effectively.

I agree on making it a level 60 spell.

I'm sick of hearing druids complain they can't get groups when they can solo. I did both grouping and soloing and now I'm 60. I think I complained once along the way, at level 54. The struggle to get level 60 usually causes druids to quit in their mid 50s because they can't find groups. This spell solves that problem, but it unbalances the healing classes. Druids will be wanted more than clerics in the low-to-mid 50s now. At least unless the cleric changes are more significant than they look. Druids should be rewarded with better healing than they are at 60, and this spell would be a nice reward. Also, it would allow raiding druids to have more of a role but not give mid-50s druid an unbalancing role.

At level 60 I rarely exp in places where even this spell would be suffecient unless chain-casted depleting my mana and rending the exp too slow.

"Druids will be wanted more than clerics in the low-to-mid 50s now."

How do you figure druids will be wanted more in their low to mid 50s when on test, it's a level 56 spell? It's not like druids are getting this spell at 51, which would actually make your statement true.

umm, good point ;)

for some reason i had it stuck in my head that it was a level 54 spell...


anyway, it *should* be level 56~

Our guild has a cleric that spends all of his mana nuking and is tanking rather than medding. He starts casting CH after the person gets below half health so twice out of three times grouping with him he has let me die since when I am below half health it takes a mob less than 10 sec to kill me. I was having to keep the enc's alive with Cloro. He used to really get on my nerves since he would start spaming me for DS as soon as it started to blink even if I was already casting. So I quit grouping with him. Even with plenty of people complaining about his style of play and him seldom showing up for raids and nobody willing to group with him the guild could not disband him since he was a cleric. Now maybe we can group since I can keep up with heals and he can play tank-wizard like clerics want.

Clerics are being given the ability to Solo/Duo that FAR exceeds any Druid solo ability 50+ it is on test right now just like the new heal. These concerns are old news and invalid. In fact Rich confirmed that the intent is for clerics to be able to solo/duo better, they have made no statements regarding what they intend this spell to do for Druids except maybe make us "able" to fill in for Clerics when neccesary.

The point where Clerics were able to think they were getting shafted has long since past. If you want to take place in the debate, it helps to stay at least a little bit current.

Okay~ turns out I was right, it *is* level 54 (ie, low-to-mid-50s).

And I meant to say it should be 60, not 56. Remind me not to post when tipsy anymore, heh

I dunno how many time I have went in to a Zone and seen a Group looking for healer. I ask to join and they said Sorry holding out for a cleric. Of course I told them to change his shout to looking for a cleric then. All I know is I am very excited for this spell. Being lv 50 druid with Gheal a 300 heal. I can't heal 1 bub of life on a warrior in my group, and my wife a 54 Druid is a with superior heal I see her having to ask people to stop pulling because of OOM from trying to keep group healed. Now cleric won't have a guaranteed spot in every group. And will have to search for a group like the rest of us. This post is about the grouping part the clerics are mad about. Seeing I am not high enough for big raids I don't have a view on that.

The argument about Druids can solo that is why they have trouble finding a group. You think all rogues and rangers two classes of which I play also get groups when they yell for one, no they can spend all night looking for one. Normally after about 2 hour I head out to solo what I can. The ranger can solo but its a pain in the butt and I am sure a cleric can solo as easily as a ranger. The rogue Is helpless without a group lucky to kill a light blue. It will be first come first serve for once instead of a group holding out for a cleric. I know for a fact that there is a few other classes that can't solo and have trouble finding groups just like this. So cleric will just have to wait for a spot to open now or solo no matter how crappy the down time is. I did it with My ranger and rogue. I find that their argument about having to group or solo for exp with downtime is BS.

It will take a little pep out of their step and make them not act like they are gods anymore even though they are damn good to have around. Clerics heads have been blown up way to big because for so long they were about the only class that was really important to a group in allot of places necessary to have a good stream of pulls also enchanters are needed. I have seen a few a clerics pissed at a zone cause he wasn't getting a group. I remember one he was looking for a group for 20 minutes and began shouting that everyone sucks cause they weren't inviting him to a group. Things like that make me sick that a class actually has been able to get that way about groups. This is just my view on the matter. Sorry if I am rambling lol. Just trying to get my point across and I don't think I am good at it.

Sorry I posted this in general first time you can delete that one found this to be a better place to post.

What I would like to know is where is this proof that the new heal is 75% of the full HP's and not a heal TO 75%.

I think the first one seems more plausible, being as the CH currently is not a CH as such but a 10000 point heal. I don't think there is the coding to do a % heal, so a 75% of current Total HP's is the more likely, but I don't see anywhere where this has been proven yet everyone seems to jump on the band wagon about how this spell works. (Unless of course it is buried in this 6 page monstrosity posts around)

If it does work as a 75% total HP heal than I believe it to be too overpowered. Who lets their main tank get below 25% anyway. And if the tank has more than 4K HP's than you just heal them at 40% or so, which is generally the normal place to start heals anyway.

Quote : 'Clerics are being given the ability to Solo/Duo that FAR exceeds any Druid solo ability 50+'

Not even remotely true as far as the stuff currently on test goes but lets wait and see what is actually implemented.

Geddine from the reports on test, it won't just heal to 75% full and require another kind of heal to top a player off. Unless of course the spell maxed at 2925 hp healed or the spell hit when someone was at like 0-1%.

As for level, no it really shouldn't be lvl 60. First in the line of heal spells, we follow the same pattern for direct heals as clerics, just at later levels. So why should we get our pseudo-CH last? It is placed at 54 so it fits between Sheal and Chloro. Just as CH fits between SHeal and Remedy for clerics. They even put our new heal as close to Chloro as possible instead of somewhere in the middle like 51 (which I agree would be a mistake).

On top of all that, if it were 60, you'd get more fizzles and they'd never go away, whereas the highest point for fizzles with the spell currently *should* only be at 54 and then goes down to normal limits. Besides, they could gimp us on purpose or accidentally. I remember how Sheal was very broken for druids until they put in CB and retuned Sheal, especially for evoc druids. At 55, I couldn't cast sheal without a fizzle more than 40% of the time with double/tripple fizzles in a row common. I stuck with Greater healing till chloro came out, I sure hope this new heal doesn't end up broken like that mess. I do have some confidence in the Live team though.

What I would like to know is where is this proof that the new heal is 75% of the full HP's and not a heal TO 75%.
The new Druid CH should operate like the Monk ability Mend. Regardless of the number of hitpoints, a Monk will heal 25% of his health. The Druid heal will heal 75% of the targets health, but it'll be capped at 2925hps.

Druid abilities just far outweigh the abilities of Clerics. A well played Druid with this new spell will rule in any pickup group as main healer. The only thing Clerics will have going for them in a pickup group is Rez. Even in a half-@#%$ group people rarely die, so what good will the class be then? Just grab a Pally and start getting that exp.

> Clerics are being given the ability to
>Solo/Duo that FAR exceeds any Druid solo ability 50+ i

ROFL

Get off the pipe, man. It's doing bad things to your brain.

The new Druid CH should operate like the Monk ability Mend. Regardless of the number of hitpoints, a Monk will heal 25% of his health. The Druid heal will heal 75% of the targets health, but it'll be capped at 2925hps.


Nonsense.


The spell is geared towards making druids more raid-friendly. Set it up this way and you lose a large portion of the health cushion required when raiding.

If the heal is capped this way, don't even bother implementing it. It's a waste of space in the spdat.


Tettsuo, why are you constantly trying to marginalize the abilities (even ones that have not yet been implemented) of druids? Do you feel some sort of guilt for playing one?

Ahhh it better not just heal to 75% max of someones health.

It better heal a "total" of up to 75% of a players "total" health at the time of the heal (or the cap)

If a player has 5000 hit points and is down to 3k this heal had better heal him to full and not just to 75% of his health otherwise it's a wasted and useless spell.

I am pretty sure this is just like any other heal except it will heal a max of 75% or 2940 of a players total health.

For example if a player has a total of:

1000 hit points = 750 point heal (75%)
2000 hit points = 1500 point heal (75%)
3000 hit points = 2250 point heal (75%)
4000 hit points = 2940 point heal (capped) (74% heal)
5000 hit points = 2940 point heal (capped) (59% heal)
6000 hit points = 2940 point heal (capped) (49% heal)
7000 hit points = 2940 point heal (capped) (42% heal)
8000 hit points = 2940 point heal (capped) (37% heal)
9000 hit points = 2940 point heal (capped) (33% heal)
10000 hit points=2940 point heal (capped) (29% heal)

It does not heal them up to 75% of their health and leave them still 25% down in hit points.

So this is NEVER a Complete Heal and it will NEVER heal more than 2940 hit points. For players with under 4000 hit points it will act as a 75% heal. For players with more than 4000 hit points it will act as a percentage based heal that changes according to how many hit points the player has (see above) as the cap will limit this heal and keep the Clerics in the true role as master healer.

> If a player has 5000 hit points and is down to 3k
>this heal had better heal him to full and not just to
>75% of his health otherwise it's a wasted and
>useless spell.

No, that would just be a stupid time to cast it.

From my understanding, it heals a target by up to a maximum of 2940 HP, with total HP after heal not to exceed 75% of current max.

This is PLENTY POWERFUL FOR US. It is more than sufficient for any XP group, and is a huge bonus for raiding.

A 75% health heal would be fine for XP groups.


It would be a total waste for raiding. using it efficiently would mean letting your secondary melee taking AE and your rampage tanks enter the low-health aggro zone in order to fully use the heal.

Do this and get caught at it and you can stay home and XP the next time your guild goes raiding.


Stop being silly. Stop trying to further limit what is already a defined and limited spell.

The spell is for 75% of the targets total health or 2940hp, whichever is first.

Falamil,

When have I ever tried to marginalize Druid abilities? If anything, I've been saying Druids kick much arse. If this heal goes through, Clerics are gonna be in big trouble when they're looking for exp groups. Druids will be, by far, the better "healer" to have in exp group situation (this is for toons 54-59). Druids will simply have more to offer.

No, that would just be a stupid time to cast it.

From my understanding, it heals a target by up to a maximum of 2940 HP, with total HP after heal not to exceed 75% of current max.


Ahh it would if the heal is as you suggest. I would stake my bankroll (not very big atm LOL) that the heal is the way I suggested.

No one on a raid (and this is designed FOR raids and is just incidentally good for groups) would allow people in their group to fall to near death in order to get the most benefit to casting this. Add in the 10 second cast tiem and we would have another spell sitting unused on raids.

From the spell data file:

Druid Heal

Slot Description
1: Increase Hitpoints by 2925 (75% max)

Cleric CH

Slot Description
1: Increase Hitpoints by 10000

As you can see the only difference is that the Druid version has a cap. An additional check to lower the amount healed if the player being healed has less than 3800 hit points and in this case the amount healed is adjusted.

The code would go something like this:


if totalplayerhitpoints < 3800 then currentplayerhitpoints = currentplayerhitpoints + (totalplayerhitpoints * 0.75)

else currentplayerhitpoints = currentplayerhitpoints + 2940

If you plug in the following:

Player1:

totalplayerhitpoints = 2000
currentplayerhitpoints = 500 (down 1500)
heal = 1500

Player2:

totalplayerhitpoints = 5000
currentplayerhitpoints = 500 (down 4500)
heal = 2940