View Full Forums : AC Caps for Druids


Gildian
10-28-2006, 11:09 PM
So im just wondering what our AC cap is.. and if it was increased with TSS?

Gildian of the Rathe

Fenier
10-28-2006, 11:11 PM
AC caps for all classes are very low. There was no adjustment to our softcap, but we gained with Shield Block, Defense and Dodge skill increases.

You are still subject to the same overcap returns as pre-TSS iirc.

Gildian
10-28-2006, 11:19 PM
Can you tell me what the soft cap is tho?.. i swear, when in Demi and i cant use my Self buff on some events due to the DS issues.. ill get WoV.. and im quite certain it helps.. our old Raid leader used to tell me, but in my old age i have forgotten the rules to this.. anyhow..

i still believe in getting wov everyraid as well as my self buff when at all possible, as well as anyother clickys... but im just now wondering if im overdoing it with wov.. im over 2500 with wov alone.

anyhow, curious george here.. and not totally up to date on game formulas for AC and the like...

thanks for your reply Fenier..

Gildian

Fenier
10-28-2006, 11:57 PM
The Softcap starts very low for all classes iirc. Wearing leather, we do not get good returns on AC.

Spellbuffed AC works a tad differantly.

What your seeming to be concerned about is primarly the various break points on AC values which increase mitigation.

This thread (http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?t=2694) should give you an idea of what to be looking for, I don't have an exact answer for you since most of my work deals with the adjustment spike damage with attack reduction.

It is going to be hard for you to tell the differance without a sizable parse under controled conditions. You are looking for the change in your mitigation AC, and the results will differ mob to mob.

Generally, more AC is better. Attack Reduction on mobs is worth drastically more then any AC gain you can achieve. Weather or not it's worth it in a raid setting, would totally depend on what your fighting.

-Fenier

Rajolae
11-01-2006, 11:54 AM
Can you tell me what the soft cap is tho?.. i swear, when in Demi and i cant use my Self buff on some events due to the DS issues.. ill get WoV.. and im quite certain it helps.. our old Raid leader used to tell me, but in my old age i have forgotten the rules to this.. anyhow..

i still believe in getting wov everyraid as well as my self buff when at all possible, as well as anyother clickys... but im just now wondering if im overdoing it with wov.. im over 2500 with wov alone.

anyhow, curious george here.. and not totally up to date on game formulas for AC and the like...

thanks for your reply Fenier..

Gildian

What nonexistant event are you doing in DPoB where you cannot use our self buff AC/DS line?

Woodelfous
11-01-2006, 03:27 PM
What nonexistant event are you doing in DPoB where you cannot use our self buff AC/DS line?

Any event where you don't want to do DMG to specific mobs. Redfang would be a good example.

Netura
11-01-2006, 05:11 PM
Is there any reason for this thread to be here, Gildian, or should I move it to a more appropriate forum for a question?

Wyndfoot
11-01-2006, 07:14 PM
What mobs don't you want to damage during Redfang? I suppose if your kiting the blooddrinkers, but that's not the easiest way to handle them.

Netura
11-01-2006, 08:40 PM
What mobs don't you want to damage during Redfang? I suppose if your kiting the blooddrinkers, but that's not the easiest way to handle them.
Unless you have an abundance of healers, it definately is.

Rajolae
11-01-2006, 11:43 PM
Unless you have an abundance of healers, it definately is.

Hell we have an abundant amount of healers and still kite them. I use AE rains on Redfang and don't care if they hit a bat that's near him for some reason, let alone my gimpy 33 (i think thats what it is) DS that I have with self buff and worn DS

dorda
11-02-2006, 07:42 AM
well mysef i still see improvements at 2100 ac ..
in fact i ask cleric Wov or enc Umbra, ranger Ac, all ac buffs i can get any time i can get...
what else stacks with skinbuff,armorbuff,Wov,BBB,ranger ac??

I think the useful ac level depends heavily on the ATK rating of the mob you are tanking.. ehm that IS CHEWING you ... if u tank a low atk mob any ac past a certain level dont do any good, if the atk is higher the useful ac is higher too... but i might be wrong.

Is there a nice clicky with ac buff that can be group-obtained? that for use is high on musthave list for me, along with somekinda spellhaste clicky (which only exists in GOD right?)

Fenier
11-02-2006, 08:36 AM
well mysef i still see improvements at 2100 ac

You will always see improvements until a time you are mitigating all hits to the minimum value.

I think the useful ac level depends heavily on the ATK rating of the mob you are tanking.. ehm that IS CHEWING you ... if u tank a low atk mob any ac past a certain level dont do any good, if the atk is higher the useful ac is higher too... but i might be wrong.


I think most people here would agree a WoS Chimera is a low attack mob.

I did a Parse wearing Woven Grass Armor (Full Suit) and clocked in at 1639 AC.

I then did a parse wearing my Normal Armor, with 1995 AC.

The parses are very very short, so subject to RNG variances. However, in the short parse it showed that increasing my AC value by 356 showed no drastic differance by parsing. Just because you happen to gain 400 AC doesn't mean your suddenly going to tank drastically better. I couldn't even tell the differance until I looked at the logs.

Basing Armor choices around AC, or AC augs makes totally no sense due to the drastic amount of AC you need to gain to even begin to see noticable differance by parsing logs. To see an actual visual differance, you need to increase that even further, and the number continues to get higher as your AC goes up due to diminishing returns.

-Fenier

dorda
11-02-2006, 09:21 AM
sounds reasonable .. on a chimera you see a drastic difference going from 1000 ac to 1639 ac probably and at 1639 mitigation against chimeras is capped..
Now if you compare the effect of that same shift from 1639 ac to 1995 ac against a mob with much higher atk value .. (i know that makes parsing a LOT more difficult) i think you would notice a difference again. Probably you would see a difference tanking arcstone nameds for example.

Fenier
11-02-2006, 02:18 PM
Your statement is incorrect, because, as I said before, you will continue to see improvement until all hits are minimum, which wasn't the case.

Alaene
11-02-2006, 04:42 PM
The only caveat to this is that, if you can, you should put an AC aug in your secondary slot. AC in this slot has overcap returns as detailed at Samanna's site...

Fenier
11-02-2006, 04:52 PM
Shield AC functions totally differant then getting ac augs in any other slot =x

Rajolae
11-03-2006, 09:16 PM
Basing Armor choices around AC, or AC augs makes totally no sense due to the drastic amount of AC you need to gain to even begin to see noticable differance by parsing logs. To see an actual visual differance, you need to increase that even further, and the number continues to get higher as your AC goes up due to diminishing returns.

-Fenier

That holds true except for AC augs in a shield

Rajolae
11-03-2006, 09:17 PM
The only caveat to this is that, if you can, you should put an AC aug in your secondary slot. AC in this slot has overcap returns as detailed at Samanna's site...

That only works if your secondary is, which it should be, a shield.

Fenier
11-05-2006, 02:21 AM
Your going to survive more with a Shield regardless, thanks to Shield Block AA.

Alaene
11-05-2006, 04:41 PM
That only works if your secondary is, which it should be, a shield.

Interesting - I thought it worked on Secondary Slot AC regardless of whether it was on a shield. Having checked up on it, you're dead right - this only applies to items tagged as Shields (which includes some things that don't normally look like shields).

It doesn't include my 2ndary Scrykin Caster's Blade, so the AC Aug I have in that slot isn't giving any overcap bonus (no point swapping it out, though, because it also has 10 save vs. all on it).

Time I got a shield, Fenier! Bring on Yar Lir :P

Mebunyip
12-01-2006, 12:42 PM
Beyond 1400 Ac on Druids is a waste of time. Period.

Palarran
12-01-2006, 02:47 PM
Hmm, it just occurred to me...
What about "Shield" items that go in a slot other than Secondary?

All three of these "shields" can be equipped at the same time in addition to a Secondary slot shield. If the Secondary slot is not a requirement, these three items would add 100 pre-softcap AC plus whatever AC is available on augments for the Back, Primary, and Range slots:

Orb of Satisfaction
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: RANGE PRIMARY SECONDARY
Charges: Unlimited
AC: 35
STA: +15 WIS: +15 INT: +15 HP: +100
SV POISON: +30
Recommended level of 60.
Effect: Blessing of the Harvest (Any Slot/Can Equip, Casting Time: 10.0)
WT: 2.5 Size: TINY
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

Net of the Deep Sea
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: BACK SECONDARY
AC: 30
DEX: +7 STA: +20 AGI: +15 HP: +50 MANA: +50 ENDUR: +50
SV FIRE: +10 SV COLD: +10
Effect: Enduring Breath (Worn)
WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
Class: ALL except BER
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

Iron Scroll of War
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: RANGE PRIMARY SECONDARY
Charges: 2
AC: 35
WIS: +10 INT: +10 MANA: +50
Effect: Supernova (Must Equip, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
Class: CLR DRU SHM NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

40 druid equippable items that have AC, are classified as Shields, and can be equipped in a slot other than Secondary:
http://eqitems.13th-floor.org/itemsearch.php?searchtype=advanced&field_0=itemtype&compare_0=%3D&text_0=8&next_0=1&field_1=slots&compare_1=%3C%3E&text_1=16384&next_1=1&field_2=classes&compare_2=%26&text_2=32&next_2=1&field_3=ac&compare_3=%3E&text_3=0&next_3=0

Kamion
12-01-2006, 02:55 PM
Only secondary items tagged as shield will give you the benefit of shield AC, and the ability to use shield block AA. You can check the item type tag of an item on lucy.

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=71669

Item Type: Shield. All benefits of a shield granted.

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=69051

Item Type: Armor. Secondary equiptable, but will not grant you the benefits of a shield.

-------------

If you don't use a secondary that item type is tagged as a shield, than don't buy the shield block AA.

Netura
12-01-2006, 03:01 PM
Beyond 1400 Ac on Druids is a waste of time. Period.
False.

Palarran
12-01-2006, 03:18 PM
You're certain about the Secondary slot part? (Not for the Shield Block AA, but for the pre-softcap AC...)

Tobynn
12-01-2006, 03:26 PM
Beyond 1400 Ac on Druids is a waste of time. Period.


Try as I might, I just can't make any sense of that statement.

Kamion
12-04-2006, 09:19 AM
Putting effort into going Beyond 1400 Ac on Druids is a waste of time. Period.

There, better.

Rajolae
12-04-2006, 06:50 PM
Hmm, it just occurred to me...
What about "Shield" items that go in a slot other than Secondary?

All three of these "shields" can be equipped at the same time in addition to a Secondary slot shield. If the Secondary slot is not a requirement, these three items would add 100 pre-softcap AC plus whatever AC is available on augments for the Back, Primary, and Range slots:

Orb of Satisfaction
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: RANGE PRIMARY SECONDARY
Charges: Unlimited
AC: 35
STA: +15 WIS: +15 INT: +15 HP: +100
SV POISON: +30
Recommended level of 60.
Effect: Blessing of the Harvest (Any Slot/Can Equip, Casting Time: 10.0)
WT: 2.5 Size: TINY
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

Net of the Deep Sea
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: BACK SECONDARY
AC: 30
DEX: +7 STA: +20 AGI: +15 HP: +50 MANA: +50 ENDUR: +50
SV FIRE: +10 SV COLD: +10
Effect: Enduring Breath (Worn)
WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
Class: ALL except BER
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

Iron Scroll of War
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: RANGE PRIMARY SECONDARY
Charges: 2
AC: 35
WIS: +10 INT: +10 MANA: +50
Effect: Supernova (Must Equip, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
Class: CLR DRU SHM NEC WIZ MAG ENC
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 7

40 druid equippable items that have AC, are classified as Shields, and can be equipped in a slot other than Secondary:
http://eqitems.13th-floor.org/itemsearch.php?searchtype=advanced&field_0=itemtype&compare_0=%3D&text_0=8&next_0=1&field_1=slots&compare_1=%3C%3E&text_1=16384&next_1=1&field_2=classes&compare_2=%26&text_2=32&next_2=1&field_3=ac&compare_3=%3E&text_3=0&next_3=0

Fairly certain that that does not actually work.

Fenier
04-09-2007, 03:25 PM
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=109796#1537588

Maddoc writes:

The initial comparison was between beastlords and druids, not beastlords and monks.

The post that you dredged up (by Kavhok, as I recall) is an accurate account of the events that took place up to that point, though it is at least a couple years old, so it may not be 100% accurate now.

The data that I'm looking at right now says that monks and beastlords have the exact same softcap, which is slightly (roughly 7%) higher than druids. The data also shows druids as having the lowest soft-cap modifier, followed by beastlords (roughly triple the druids return), and then by monks (roughly double that of beastlords).

That said, there seems to be some discrepancy between that original post and the current data used by the game, which I'll try and see if I can clear up. I did some initial digging and I don't see any changes being made to the ac data for any of those three classes, however... All of this data, which is now conveniently located in a database where I can modify as necessary, used to be hard-coded values and formulas that we couldn't change.

Right now, it looks like the change to bring monks and beastlords up above druids were done prior to us converting all those hard-coded formulas and values into a data driven table, which ultimately means it's not going to be so easy to track down when it changed.

The end result is that it did change at some point, and this is what it's currently at.