Well I did some research to find out where we were healing wise when the game came out.

The year is 1999

The game only went to level 50.
An "average" tank had about 2000 hit points (raid buffed)
Clerics got a 5% healing bonus.
Non-Clerics got a 10% penalty for heals.
Mobs have average hit points and hit for average.

The best Cleric heal is Complete Heal that used a good portion of a Clerics mana pool at the time (400) so it could not be cast too many time before the Cleric was OOM.

The second best Cleric heal was Superior Heal at level 34.
The best Druid heal was Greater Heal at level 29.

On to the numbers:

For Complete Heal I will use a 80% (1 bubble health left) and 60% (2 bubbles of health left - raid conditions)

CH 80% - heals 1600 for 400 mana (4.0 ratio)
CH 60% - heals 1200 for 400 mana (3.0 ratio)
Cleric SH - heals 612 for 250 mana (2.45 ratio)
Druid GH - heals 270 for 150 mana (1.8 ratio)

So in '99

Druids could heal 14% of a 2000 hit point tank.
Druids could heal 73% as well as a Cleric 2nd best heal.

----------------------------------------------------------

The year is 2002

The game goes up to 60 (farther if you consider AA points)
An "average" tank has about 5000 hit points (raid buffed)
Clerics got a 5% healing bonus.
Mobs have insane hit points and hit VERY Hard. (but so do tanks)

The second best Cleric heal is Divine Light at level 53.
The best Druid heal is Nature's Touch at level 60.
Clerics get "powerful" 24 second Heal Over Time Spells.
Clerics get "powerful" Group Heals. (hard to measure ratio)

On to the numbers:

For Complete Heal I will use a 80% (1 bubble health left) and 60% (2 bubbles of health left - raid conditions)

CH 80% - heals 4000 for 400 mana (10.0 ratio)
CH 60% - heals 3000 for 400 mana (7.5 ratio)
Cleric DL - heals 956 for 350 mana (2.73 ratio)
Cleric HoT - heals 1550 for 300 mana (5.16 ratio) 24 secs
Druid NT - heals 924 for 400 mana (2.31 ratio)

So in '02

Druids could heal 18.5% of a 5000 hit point tank.
Druids could heal 78% as well as a Cleric's 2nd best heal (non-HoT)
Druids could heal 45% as well as a Cleric's 2nd best heal (HoT)

Comments:

See how Complete Heal has become so overpowering that it dwarfs all other heals?

The balancing factor for Clerics Complete Heal back in '99 was that it took so much mana that a cleric could not cast it very much and the fact that the average "tank" only had 2000 hit points. The spell was never thought out for the future and this problem will grow worse and worse until it is either capped or other classes get some percentage based heal to allow other healing classes to keep up IMHO.

It's hard to measure apples to apples in regard to HoT's. Clearly the short 24 seconds makes this a most powerful spell but it is still not a Direct heal.

In summary: (NOT INCLUDING COMPLETE HEAL)

'99

Druids could direct heal in one cast 14% of a tanks health.
Druids could heal 73% as well as Clerics in Mana/Heal ratio.

'02

Druid could direct heal in one cast 18.5% of a tanks health.
Druids could Direct heal 78% as well as CLerics in Mana/Heal ratio.
Druids could heal 45% as well as Clerics in Mana/Heal ratio.

Does anything more need to be said?

When I started my Druid I could heal 73% as well as a Cleric and now I am down to 45% and this does not put Complete Heal into the equation.

Some may point to the fact that our Direct Heal has actually gone up from 73% to 78% numbers wise but in the world of '02 HoT's, Group Heals and Complete Heal rule.

If you do not think this then I challenge you to enter a high end dungeon and refrain from using Complete Heal or a HoT and see how long till the raid is wiped.

Druids get neither a percentage heal, Hot or Group Heal.

Back in '99 Druids two Druids "could" replace one Cleric.
Now it takes 5-6 Druids to replace a Cleric.

These are the facts. Draw your own conclusions.

Cassea,

I have a question because I was curious did your 2002 numbers take into account the removal of the 10% penalty? If I am not mistaken you do have the best direct heal outside of Complete Heal by virtue of the removal of that penalty. I could be wrong but I cant find the thread on these boards to back me up, so please this is not a flame or anything I am just curious.

Be well and safe

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro

Yes I did remove the penalty but I was confused as to if Caster's Realm had the Clerics heal including the 5% bonus or not.

If not then Clerics still have the best heal outside CH by a tiny margin.

I'm sure of the Druid numbers but not the clerics.

For the above I added 5% to the numbers posted on Caster's Realm. If they already added the 5% bonus then I need to lower the Clerics numbers by 5%.

My other post did "not" add this 5% bonus.

Any Clerics out there can confirm if Caster's Realm numbers for Clerics include the 5% bonus or not?

Either way A Clerics 2nd best heal and a Druids best heal (for amount healed in one cast) is nearly the same.

What sets us apart more is the mana/heal ratio, CH and in particular Clerics 24 second HoT.

DL is 955 hp for a cleric without AA/focus.

CE isnt really 1550 hp though (even if I thought so myself for a long while). Sometimes its 4 ticks = 1200 hp and sometimes its 1500 hp. When you get the bonus tick seems to have something to do with catching a server tick but its not something you can rely on. Its probably best to count CE as 1350 hp on average for that reason.

If I am not mistaken you do have the best direct heal outside of Complete Heal by virtue of the removal of that penalty

Not really, considering without the penalty we heal about 45 hp more than Divine light. But we do so for 400 mana and it takes 5.5 seconds to cast.

Divine Light is still the superior spell.

Please please PLEASE use Lucy (http://lucy.fnord.net) for your spell info and not Castersrealm. Lucy draws from the spdat.ef file EVERY PATCH.

CE is 1200. It's 1500 IF you can land it right during a server tick (not easy to do). Most of the time it does 1200 and it's not accurate to say it does any more than that. Also, CE is a BUFF and therefore not subject to any healing penalties or bonuses.

I don't know what the obsession with group heals is. I rarely use mine but if druids want a Wave of Prexus that's fine by me.

When you factor in pre-Kunark, PLEASE include regen. Druids always leave out regen. It does make a difference.

Clerics AGREE that druids need another heal. Clerics need one too because *gasp* you can't use CH in every situation. And yet nobody wants to listen to our proposals except druid trolls who howl "WE WON'T SETTLE FOR ANYTHING BELOW CH". Is there any possibility we can talk about a non-CH for druids in a civil manner? I still feel a 2k heal for druids and clerics is what is needed, what with AA and Focus being able to strech it out. Keep in mind CH is not affected by ANY focus besides Extend Range.

Boan,

Regen mattered when tanks had 2k and casters 1k as did damage shields. Mob's hit for less and did less damage.

THIS

is when regen and DS's made sense.

Now when tanks have 5k+ and caster 3k+ on raids and mobs hit for 300+ that +15 regen or 20-30 DS is a joke.

IE:


Mob with 10000 hit points

Mob hits for 300 (Druids regen -15) result: 285 - whoopie!
Mob now has 9970
Tanks hit for 200

rinse and repeat

As far as heals:

What do clerics think about Verant giving Druids and Clerics a 33% or 50% heal with the Cleric version being more mana eff and a quicker cast?

Several people are advocation this as a way to fix healing once and for all so that the spell will always scale no matter what happenes to the game.

And by percent heal I mean percetn of the "total" players hit points and not a percentage of what is needed to heal the player.

I am glad you as a Cleric are open minded to Druid healing. I was under the impression that Clerics were against any bump in Druid healing at all. I hope other clerics are as open minded and incidentally most Druids know that Clerics need something to do besides look at the clock and hit the CH key every 45 seconds :)

I maintain that a druid percentage heal should be "of missing hp" rather than of "max hp" - but with a larger percentage than if it was of "max hp".

I also think that it needs to take 10 sec to cast the way CH does.

That way druids also have to heal as late as possible if they want a better mana efficiency - rather than getting an easy to use full efficiency every time no skills required heal. Anything that adds skill into the game is good imho.

I dont think it should have any special recast though - and the mana cost I wont comment on :)

Should Clerics Complete Heal work the same way?

Should it only heal 100% of what the current damage is when that 10 second cast starts?

IE

Tank of 5000 Hit Points is down to 1000 (down 4000)
CH is started
10 Seconds later tank is down to 500 (down 4500)
CH heals 4000 (amount down when spell was cast)
Tank is at 4500

If not then why would a Druid percentage based heal have to be any more crippled other than to be a lessor percentage?

Let's not cripple the spell proposal before it gets born *smiles*

Making the spell only useful when the tank is near death will cause it to only be used in single groups and not raids were you cannot let the person being healed get down that low. We do not need help in exp groups but on raids.

If they make it cost too much mana we will not be able to use it on raids. If they want to make it only used on raids and not in eveyrday use (or only in emergencies) then make it cost a gem or something but then do not put alot of restriction on it.

I'll eat the cost on major raids but not in everyday use.

But then again why must Druids "pay" a price to get their healing put back to #2 on raids (We're #4 now)?

If Clerics, Shamen, Palys do not "pay" to have Raid Heal spells (Druids do not get Raid heal spells - Group Heal or HoT) then why should we pay?

Comparing druids now to what they were in 1999 and trying to restore them to how powerful they were back then is imbalancing in itself especially when you ONLY want to compare healing and not take other things into account. IMO druids were overpowered back in 99 more than any other class. Putting druids in Luclin to similar power they were when the game first game out would totally throw any sort of balance out the window.

Druids are basically a 'patch' class with abilities taken from other clases. Druids are meant to fill SOME of the holes and in no way are to 'replace' a class. Some classes in this game are irreplacable in alot of circumstances (i.e. Warrior, chanter, cleric, etc), whereas in others non-specialized classes get the job done just fine. This game was designed with GROUPING in mind and in many instances that means if you don't have class X you aren't doing encounter y: That is how the game has been designed, Verant WANTS and encourages grouping (although sometimes it gets the point where its driven down your throat).

Since you're comparing directly to cleric spells and ONLY taking healing into account the discussion is skewed from the start. You really need to take a look at the two classes as a whole because theres a reason why healing is skewed in favor of a cleric.

"See how Complete Heal has become so overpowering that it dwarfs all other heals?"

I have no problems with clerics and CH "dwarfing" other heals, nor does it bother me that it heals 10k. Clerics ARE the healing class in EQ, not ifs, ands or buts about it. CH is here, its here to stay and it plays a major part in the high end game. CH is a class defining ability for a cleric.

"When I started my Druid I could heal 73% as well as a Cleric and now I am down to 45% and this does not put Complete Heal into the equation."

How is this so to be 45% ?

Look at the direct target heals. When you consider no AAxp, after the healing penalty removal, what you have is basically chloro/remedy, SH, and NT/divine light being very close (not going to nitpick on these the cleric ones are marginally better but for all intensive purposes they are the same). What you don't have is spells like CE which heal ~1200, and group heals which druids have never gotten in the game. However you have other regen type spells.

For the fast direct heals, you are right on par with clerics with chloro/SH/NT. So I disagree that you can only heal at 45% compared to the past and not taking CH into account. Even if you considered CE a fast direct target heal that would put you at ~80.

This reminds me of a point someone said in another thread about druid healing and casters and how broken druid healing is when they can't keep casters alive. Druids basically have the same spells available for saving casters as clerics do (chloro/SH/NT vs remedy/SH/DL). This is not a class problem, its a player problem.

A level 60 druid is capable of doing fast patch healing at the same level of a level 60 cleric.

"Some may point to the fact that our Direct Heal has actually gone up from 73% to 78% numbers wise but in the world of '02 HoT's, Group Heals and Complete Heal rule."

CH is needed in the high end raiding game, its been like since SoV. But CH is not the only thing. Sometimes you also NEED warriors, enchs, SHMs etc. Again, this is how the game is designed. Group heals are not really a neccessity for the most part and are very situational/beneficial to use. Another point you brought up is regens. Druids have regen type spells and are a big plus on raids, especially in long lasting fights. Don't be so quick to undersell your own abilities.

"If you do not think this then I challenge you to enter a high end dungeon and refrain from using Complete Heal or a HoT and see how long till the raid is wiped."

And whats the point? We already know this that high end encounters require CH. This is just like saying don't bring warriors and see how long it takes for you to wipeout.

"Druids get neither a percentage heal, Hot or Group Heal."

Again, the HoT part I don't agree with. In alot of fights regens are a big plus in my book especially in longer fights. Clerics don't even get a percentage heal, nor do they get any type of regen spells.

"Back in '99 Druids two Druids "could" replace one Cleric.
Now it takes 5-6 Druids to replace a Cleric."

Back in 99 a single druid could replace and offer more to a group in 99% of the game and offer a full load of versatility a cleric could never begin to dream about.

Yep it sounds like a broken record...but you look at a druid of 99....HP/AC buffs (better than clerics), str buffs, snares, regens, thorns, dots, cold/fire DD, SoW, invis, ports, lev, EB, wolfform, etc.

Compare that with a cleric who buffs (HP/AC, and further HP at a price), heals, resses and maybe throws a undead or live DD here and there.

That is a HUGE difference in abilities.

Its no surprise that in the low end sub 50 game clerics had it tough. Why bother with a cleric when a druid can do all this ? Something to think about when you keep bringing up the druid of 99 because the same problem is happening in Luclin now in exp grind groups.

"These are the facts. Draw your own conclusions."

To be honest, your facts are somewhat skewed/biased as I've given above. I've also read your 'facts' about nerfing CH to 50% of its effectiveness and at the same time giving a huge boost to druid healing. Can you really sit there with a straight face given your current abilities, to give druids a huge increase in healing power by not only nerfing clerics but at the same time bolstering your own heals and claim this is for balancing ? I sure as hell don't want to nerf one class by raising another.

And to ask yourself why you should have to pay for large healing upgrades ? That answer should be quite clear now should it not? If its unclear to you, perhaps you can ask a cleric what they have to 'pay' for to have that type of healing they do. If you can't realize that, then theres no point talking about game balance and upgrades.

Do druids need some upgrading in healing? Sure they could use an upgrade in this area.

The problem with upgrades and specifically the viewpints from this board is the piss poor bitterness that is taken to skew/bias information rather to lay out the good and bad all on the same sheet. This is more of along the lines of playing people for tools and milking them based on sympathy.

Its like the blind parapalegic on a street corner whos sitting in a wheelchair and begging for money. You see him there yelling how he's useless and no one wants him around. At night he takes off his sunglasses, gets up, picks up his wheelchair and walk away with a nice take.

I equate this to threads that try to justify getting huge upgrades because "xp mobs quad for 100's of points of damage a round and I can't keep a group healed", and how "druids can't even keep casters alive" or how "druids can't even keep up healing in an exp group with non-stop pulls", or "druids are useless on high end raids" etc.

Quite frankly its utter BS. Exping grinding on mobs that quad for 100's is just stupid. Its not a problem with your class, its the person behind the player deciding to exp grind there. Keeping casters alive is something even clerics have problems with - you have the same abilities to save a caster as a cleric - its all about the players not the class. Druids do awesome in exp groups both offensively and defensively. Druids are far from useless on raids, in fact this is one area where druids versatility is a plus with offense, and patch healing.

There are some damn good druids out there playing who take druids for face value. The acknowledge they could use some upgrades in some areas but they don't resort to using pure bitterness and continuously trying to drive down people's throats that their useless when most people know thats just not true.

As far as I'm concerned the only useless druid is a player who doesn't know how to play one.

If you're going to try to sell an idea of upgrades, do it for face value rather than crying wolf. These discussions concentrate too much on "The suck factor" rather that "Heres what good/Here's whats bad and heres where some areas where we're lacking or new ideas". Trying to 'sell' an idea out of sheer bitterness and bias won't get you much support, especially when people like Absor clearly reads some of these discussions. He isn't exactly cluessless when it comes to game issues and the sympathy game. When you go to a store to buy something, do you do it based on a biased viewpoint or from different areas?

Druids have been civil far to long IMHO. We presented a petition with well thought out ideas that asked for mostly modest improvements. It was stated in the begining of the petition that VI should 'consider implementing some of the ideas, suggestions, and requests,' not all of them. Even then, all it brought was laughter. VI said they don't pay any attention to petitions. People came here and basically said druids were greedy %#$%%^ that were overpowered and didn't need any improvements. If you want to know why so many druids are bitter, you don't have to look back far. Since then, a new zone has come out where harmony doesn't work and word has come that the next expansion will make another of the druid's abilities even more watered down. At this point, most of us feel there is nothing left to lose, nothing else to nerf, and it is time we get some of the skills we were denied because of our versatility now that everyone is much more versatile than before.

Quote:

Yep it sounds like a broken record...but you look at a druid of 99....HP/AC buffs (better than clerics), str buffs, snares, regens, thorns, dots, cold/fire DD, SoW, invis, ports, lev, EB, wolfform, etc.

Compare that with a cleric who buffs (HP/AC, and further HP at a price), heals, resses and maybe throws a undead or live DD here and there.

Comment:

Do I have to go over this list again to point out that Verant has given away the Druid Store as far as Druid abilities.

Quote:

And to ask yourself why you should have to pay for large healing upgrades ? That answer should be quite clear now should it not? If its unclear to you, perhaps you can ask a cleric what they have to 'pay' for to have that type of healing they do. If you can't realize that, then theres no point talking about game balance and upgrades.

Comment:

What did Druids get in return when Verant "gave" away run speed (even indoor!) to every other class?

What should Druids get when POP comes out and all classes can port around MUCH easier than before?

If I sound like a broken record it may be because the questions keep getting asked and what do Druids get from the other classes?

Druids get HP/AC buffs (better than clerics), str buffs, snares, regens, thorns, dots, cold/fire DD, SoW, invis, ports, lev, EB, wolfform, etc.

And the last time I checked did not Clerics have the far and away best buff in the entire game? Which AC/HP buff do druids get that is better? This I have to hear.

My numbers are not biased. I pride myself in presenting the entire picture and not just a snapshot. I even proposed any "raid" heal have a plat gem needed so we would not use in in exp groups.

The entire percentage based heal (if you read the proposal) was to "fix" the healing ratio once and for all for all classes so new heals do not have to be added each time Verant bumps up the game level.

Quote:

Druids basically have the same spells available for saving casters as clerics do (chloro/SH/NT vs remedy/SH/DL). This is not a class problem, its a player problem.

Comment:

HoT's HoT's and more HoT's and toss in a Group heal!

HoT's are one powerful spell. I would venture to say that they are used more than direct heals asside from CH on raids. Why? Because the heal/mana ratio is so much better than non-CH direct heals.

While we may have the same "fast" heals they are most certainly not the same. The mana/heal ratio is much worse for Druids. If we shared ALL heal spells this would be expected as a way to make Clerics the preffered healers but Clerics get the once nice now UBER CH as well as HoT's and group heals - Druids do not. Our bread and butter heals just don't cut it - did not cut it last year or the year before. Superior heal has a Mana/heal ratio of 2.1 - Out next two heals at 55 and 60 are 2.2 (2.2 and 2.3 after penalty removal) This is horrible!

Quote:

And whats the point? We already know this that high end encounters require CH. This is just like saying don't bring warriors and see how long it takes for you to wipeout

Comment:

When I made my Druid CH was not required for high end encounters. When tanks had 2k or even 3k hit points I could heal just fine. Never as good as a cleric but I could do it. The game changed - Druids did not.

Quote:

In alot of fights regens are a big plus in my book especially in longer fights. Clerics don't even get a percentage heal, nor do they get any type of regen spells.

Comment:

I have always said that whatever Druids get Clerics should also with a better ratio. This is not about Druids overtaking Clerics - it's about Druids keeping up. CH becomes more powerful day by day as players feed off Verant's endless additions to keep us playing. Each bump in hit points makes CH better and ALL other heals worse. It has to stop. It has to be fixed and fixed fast.

As far as regen goes. Our best 15 point regen (we have a short +30 regen that stacks at 60 but has a 90 seconds recharge, is single cast only) was most impressive when mobs hit for 25 or 50 or hell even 75 or 100. Mobs at 60+ hit for what? 200? 300? more? That regen is a joke and only good between pulls. Tell your group to stop for a few minutes to "regen" up between pulls and they will tell you where to go :)

Quote:

I've also read your 'facts' about nerfing CH to 50% of its effectiveness and at the same time giving a huge boost to druid healing

Comment:

Nerf CH? Where? If you mean "cap" CH at the "average" buffed tank in the game now - yes I proposed it and say it will impact Clerics in no way.

If Verant determines that the "average" buffed tank has 5k or 6k hit points and caps CH at that then how is it no longer a CH? What is does do is ensure that CH stops becoming more powerful and unbalancing the game any more than it has now. It will affect no encounters as the spell will still heal the same. Now after POP when tanks bump up to 7k or 8k or 9k+ then yes it becomes a factor but then maybe just maybe Verant can stop putting in mobs with more hit points and higher attack "just" to compensate for this one Spell.

Quote:

These discussions concentrate too much on "The suck factor" rather that "Heres what good/Here's whats bad and heres where some areas where we're lacking or new ideas". Trying to 'sell' an idea out of sheer bitterness and bias won't get you much support, especially when people like Absor clearly reads some of these discussions

Comment:

We tried that. Druids tlaked for MONTHS with hundreds and hundreds of Druids talking among themselves and then sent a well written petition to Verant months ago and Druids were attacked, made fun of and in the end ignorred.

Do you know that when many Clerics read that petition that asked for the 10% penalty to be removed as a start to fixing healing they said that the 10% was needed and we should not get ANY fix for healing?

Do you also know that when a Druid (to attract attention) proposed that Druids get CH and Manaburn that many of those SAME Clerics came back and said.... no no no no you can't have CH - it's the only class defining spell we have (What about SOW for Druids being given away?) how about removing the 10% penalty?

I'm serious here. The only thing that seems to work is being direct. All these bitter Druids did not start out being bitter. They are bitter because we cannot even ask for legit things without half the classes in norrath telling us to get f---ed.

When we ask for a roll on high level raids we are told to go start another class!

In closing...

How would YOU fix Druids if you were Verant. You stated we need something. What would you do?

"Do I have to go over this list again to point out that Verant has given away the Druid Store as far as Druid abilities.
"

For the most part what druids do is derived from other classes, minus a few unique things that are so miniscule its not even worth nothing. Druids are not the only class that has had 'their' abilities being given out.

"What did Druids get in return when Verant "gave" away run speed (even indoor!) to every other class?"

What makes you think druids should get anything for run speed ? Run speed isn't as fast as SoW and SoW can still be used and is prefered over run speed. SoW was never castable indoors anyway so how is that stealing from druids ?

"Druids get HP/AC buffs (better than clerics), str buffs, snares, regens, thorns, dots, cold/fire DD, SoW, invis, ports, lev, EB, wolfform, etc.

And the last time I checked did not Clerics have the far and away best buff in the entire game? Which AC/HP buff do druids get that is better? This I have to hear.
"

The druid and cleric comparison was for the '99 game which you compared your healing too. You missed the point entirely. If you compare the buffs back then you had Reso vs SLN. Right now in the game Aego is the best buff for melee, whereas potg is the best buff for casters.

"My numbers are not biased. I pride myself in presenting the entire picture and not just a snapshot. I even proposed any "raid" heal have a plat gem needed so we would not use in in exp groups."

If your numbers are not biased, why are you saying you can only heal 45% as well as a cleric minus CH? On druids current healing spells NT is about ~978 hps for 400 mana. DL Is 955 for 350 mana. That is hardly 45% of a cleric minus CH. Even comparing a clerics CE doing 1200 hps vs 978 for NT is no where near 45%. So I don't agree with this.

"Druids basically have the same spells available for saving casters as clerics do (chloro/SH/NT vs remedy/SH/DL). This is not a class problem, its a player problem.

Comment:

HoT's HoT's and more HoT's and toss in a Group heal!
"

Let me clarify here, this is when I mentioned saving casters. This is where you need the fast single target heals. This was in response to a thread where someone claimed druid healing needed changing becaus they couldn't keep casters alive. I was showing Druids have pretty much the same tools as clerics for fast single target heals for casters.

Group heals are a different story which I've already said healing is an area that needs some work.

"HoT's are one powerful spell. I would venture to say that they are used more than direct heals asside from CH on raids. Why? Because the heal/mana ratio is so much better than non-CH direct heals."

Yep HoTs are pretty good for when the target isn't in trouble. First, the hps/mana is more effcient than fast heals, and the aggro they generate is less than fast heals. This has never been a druid ability other than slow/long regen spells which they've had since the game went live.

"While we may have the same "fast" heals they are most certainly not the same. The mana/heal ratio is much worse for Druids. If we shared ALL heal spells this would be expected as a way to make Clerics the preffered healers but Clerics get the once nice now UBER CH as well as HoT's and group heals - Druids do not. Our bread and butter heals just don't cut it - did not cut it last year or the year before. Superior heal has a Mana/heal ratio of 2.1 - Out next two heals at 55 and 60 are 2.2 (2.2 and 2.3 after penalty removal) This is horrible!
"

Like I said, I'm not going to nitpick on numbers for fast heals, but here's comparing NT/DL as one example

For NT, 978 hps for 400 mana = 2.445
For DL, 955 hps for 350 mana = 2.728

So the druid heal is ~90% hps/mana wise, and alot of that is due to the 5% bonus.

I disagree, I think druid single target healing has been fine for the last 1-2 years when considering all the abilities of a druid. I tend to look at the overall picture and not concentrate on just one aspect of it. Luclin has changed that though.

"Nerf CH? Where? If you mean "cap" CH at the "average" buffed tank in the game now - yes I proposed it and say it will impact Clerics in no way.

If Verant determines that the "average" buffed tank has 5k or 6k hit points and caps CH at that then how is it no longer a CH? What is does do is ensure that CH stops becoming more powerful and unbalancing the game any more than it has now. It will affect no encounters as the spell will still heal the same. Now after POP when tanks bump up to 7k or 8k or 9k+ then yes it becomes a factor but then maybe just maybe Verant can stop putting in mobs with more hit points and higher attack "just" to compensate for this one Spell."

Capping CH at 5k, is a DIRECT nerf to the main class ability of a cleric and I disagree that it will not impact clerics or raids. Consider that tanks are now able to reach the 7-8k ranges in HPs. Timing ranges and fluctuations on CH make it vary quite a bit. If anything this will just make it so that MORE clerics are needed for CH rotations to maintain a faster CH rot to compensate for less HPs being healed. With POP, who knows I won't speculate whats going to happen.

"Do you know that when many Clerics read that petition that asked for the 10% penalty to be removed as a start to fixing healing they said that the 10% was needed and we should not get ANY fix for healing?"

There is a good reason why the healing penalty was in place, and that was way back from 99 when druids were quite overpowered (thats my opinion some probably won't agree). IMO the sub 50 game druids were hugely overpowered and thats not just in the healing area. Thats why I think druids have a hard time getting some upgrades.

"Do you also know that when a Druid (to attract attention) proposed that Druids get CH and Manaburn that many of those SAME Clerics came back and said.... no no no no you can't have CH - it's the only class defining spell we have (What about SOW for Druids being given away?) how about removing the 10% penalty?"

Yes and that same tool trolled various boards to try and convince people that rangers make better heals than druids and drew it totally out of proportion. Its a skewed two faced approach that doesn't work when trying to present ideas that show the good and bad. The same person talks how useless they are in groups and raids, then goes off and claims they have 100+ AA and do tonnes of dmg on raids, etc. Pointless having a reasonable discussion on upgrades with people who skew from one extreme to another just for the sole purpose of misinformation. Its probably threads like those that hinder getting needed useful upgrades, no one is going to sift throught he garbage to read the few good posts in them. Luckily there are some good posters that are pretty good on this board like Tudamorph/Sobe for example but the the useful posts are pretty far and few IMO.

As to the 10% healing penalty, IMO it should of stuck in the sub 50 game and been removed in the post 50 game by adding in spells that compsenate for the 10% penalty.
(Same effect as having different healing spells for druids/shamans/pallies). Only reason I say this is due to the 'overpoweredness' of druids in the sub 50 game. If I look back on it though, I highly doubt it would have much effect. Druids were just 'too good' in too many areas for the 10% penalty to have any effect. In comparison, you really can't compare CH and SoW. SoW is a shaman based, CH is a cleric only lev 39 class defining spell. I've read the druids grove since before the time the original owner threatened to shut the site down when the dot nerf when in effect. So I've seen those posts you mention of and I've seen the complaints over time.

I've pretty much learned theres 2 crowds on this board. Theres those that that take the good with the bad from a pretty good viewpoints. Then theres those who are all about doom, gloom, pitty, bitterness and everything that comes out of their mouthis that druids sucks (no matter if its healing, DD, dots, porting etc).

I said it one and I'll say it again. The only druids that suck are the people who play druids that DON'T know how to play druids.

------------------------------------------------------
I'm all for getting upgrades, which make sense AND are REASONABLE. In doing so you MUST take into account what the class can currently do from different aspects of the game, both regular exping and raiding as well as the specialized classes where a skill might be coming from. From the exp grind perspective, I think druids are pretty well off where they are. In a raiding perspective I think druids are lacking in a few areas where they are behind a bit. Right now they lack a UNIQUE high end ability that adds to high end raiding.

1.) Healing
1a.) A large single target direct heal (non regen). This is a difficult area, Verant would most likely need to rebalance NT/DL to reduce mana and introduce a new direct taret heal. The real problem here is that if clerics couldn't convince verant for a better heal between DL/CH, you're gonna to have a harder time doing it. I'd say about a 1.5-2kish heal. I don't like the percentage heals because its not a guaranteed # on the HPS you can heal. When you're healing you want to be guarantee the # of HPs you are healing on someone, whether it be a low hp caster or a 7k hp warrior.

1b.) Group Heal. A relatively small group heal in the range of 350-500ish hps. I'm thinking something along the lines of taking some AoEs around NToV levels (even though in the high end game NToV is pretty much out of date, theres not much AE's in Luclin). This should be sufficient do to some adequate group heals.

2.) Debuffs
2a.) Cold based debuffs to compliment the Ro's line

3.) Raid oriented spells.
3a.) This is probably the most difficult one to think of and I don't have a specific example. With wizards/clerics/necs specializing in DD/Heals/Dots, I'd say stay away from healing/dots/DDs because those probably won't help much in terms of druid desirability on raids. Alot of complaints are that druids aren't needed/wanted on raids and you only need a few of them to get things done. So pretty much druids need to have a NEW UNIQUE high end ability/spell that makes them desirable for that. Otherwise your back to the 'well if we want DD output, we'll get a wiz, if we want healing we'll get a cleric, etc'. Since melee is a huge part of the high end game I'm thinking it should be something that enhances melee in some way. Either enhancing dmg output or mitigating dmg taken.

Thats pretty much all I'm going to say and I won't be replying (takes too bloody long!), I can see this going off tangent like previous threads.

Cassea


Should Clerics Complete Heal work the same way?

Should it only heal 100% of what the current damage is when that 10 second cast starts?


What makes you think this is what a %heal of "missing hp" would be?

A x% heal would heal x% of the missing hp when it lands - not of how many hp were missing when you started to cast - but when it actually lands.

I know and I was asking as doing it that way with anything less than maybe a 75% heal would cripple it.

Complete heal as it is coded now is not really a Complete Heal. It just heals so much that it seems like a Complete Heal.

Why in the world would anyone want a percent heal that heal a percentage of a players damage?

You would have to let the player being healed get so low in health in order to make the cast even worthwhile no matter what the percentage is.

There is no such restriction on a Clerics 100% heal so why would other healing classes if we got a percent heal get such a restriction?

I want a 33% heal, for example, to heal the same on a 5000 hit point player whether I cast it when they are down 1 bubble or 4 bubble of health. When I'm going from player to player healing on high level raids I cannot let them get down to low health before I heal them. If I do then someone dies.

If a Cleric went LD, was unable to attend a raid or had to leave early a Raid Leader could not pluf in three Druids to replace them with the spell restriction you propose. If the percent heal healed a set amount....

Cleric 1 cast CH Cleric 2 go....
Cleric 2 cast CH Cleric 3 go....
Cleric 3 cast CH Druids go....

All three Druids could cast a 33% heal at the same time and the net effect would be 1 CH as all three 33% heals would = 100% heal

Your method would (assuming a 5000 tank down to 1000)

Druid 1 33% brings tank from 1000 to 2332 (+1332)
Druid 2 33% brings tank from 2332 to 3220 (+888)
Druid 3 33% brings tank from 3220 to 3812 (+592)

The proposed method would

Druid 1 33% brings tank from 1000 to 2665 (+1665)
Druid 2 33% brings tank from 2665 to 4330 (+1665)
Druid 3 33% brings tank from 4330 to 5000 (+670)

Your proposal would allow the first cast to be only 350ish better than the spell we already have and each cast after is worse than our other heals.

In fact right now to replace a CH Cleric you need:

5 Druids for a 5k tank
6 Druids for a 6k tank
7 Druids for a 7k tank
8 Druids for a 8k tank

Under the porposed system:

33% heal

3 Druids for a 5k tank
3 Druids for a 6k tank
3 Druids for a 7k tank
3 Druids for a 8k tank

50% heal

2 Druids for a 5k tank
2 Druids for a 6k tank
2 Druids for a 7k tank
2 Druids for a 8k tank

Your formular for a percentage heal would give us one slightly larger heal and that's it. It also would only be a better heal if the player to be healed had over 3k in hit points. So if we were assigned to heal a caster group for example we would never your your heal. If we were assigned to heal a tank we would have to wait until the tank was under a bubble of health before we cast it. Kinda dangerous don't you think?

You have no idea how many clerics would quit the game if they gave complete healing like spells away to other classes.

Its the ONE class defining skill they have.

Buffs can be supplemented from other classes.

Rezzes are on pallies now.

Why not just give druids CH and get rid of clerics altogether?
















End sarcasm.

That sounded silly didnt it?

Its exactly what alot of people on this board sound like.

You are all doomsayers because you feel as if by improving other classes, the druid class is somehow hurt, something which bespeaks of bitter envy, not a desire for class balance.

Druids are not meant to replace clerics on raids, I fail to see where this conception comes from. I have never, ever, seen an official proclamation by Verant saying druids should be the cleric replacement. So why the wish to be?

My opinion, as a wizard, which might not be worth much here, anyways, is that complete heal was intended for the last 11 levels of the game. It was probably to save the cleric from having to click click click heal the entire time. However, with the tank's hp going wwwaaaaaaay up there, complete heal exponentially increased in power. And it is now used for 21 levels, instead of 11. So I would be inclinded to agree with anyone here that complete heal is broken.

Mer,

Who proposed giving CH to any other class?

Ch = 100% heal

Some Druids have proposed a 33% or 50% heal and we currently have a poll seeing what is more popular.

You do not seem to understand that Verant is impoving other classes by giving away Druid skills.

Now that many classes have been given much of a Druids versitiility which is what made the Druid Class we should just "quit the game?"

How's this for upgrades: (tank buffed raid hit points - approx numbers)

'99 CH = 2k max (4.0 ratio) - Druid heal = 280 (1.9 ratio)
'00 CH = 3k max (6.0 ratio) - Druid heal = 580 (2.1 ratio)
'01 CH = 5k max (10.0 ratio) - Druid heal = 880 (2.2 ratio)
'02 CH = 8k max (16.0 ratio) - Druid heal = 960 (2.4 ratio)

How much longer can this go on?

The entire high end game revolves around one spell and as far as I know know other class has such a total lock on the game as Clerics. Complete Heal was balanced back in '99 because tanks only had 2k in hit points and the spell cost about one third of a clerics total mana to cast it. If they would have fix this problem years ago we would not be talking now. As it stands they ignored it until it blew up in theri face.

50% - overpowering
33% - dead on target

Most of the cleric's CH's on a raid don't hit for more than 50%. The few that do are the ones that save the raid usually.

Now, let's dispell a myth that seems to be going around this board. CH is not the ONLY factor in VI putting in MoB's with more hp's and higher damage. If you haven't noticed, DPS has also increased a ton since '99. If you take '02 DPS against the MoB's with the hp's of Naggy and Vox, they die in less than 5 seconds. Clerics do not shoulder the only responsibilty for the kind of MoB's you are seeing in the game. Rogues, monks, and wizards have a hand in this MUDflation as well.

How about scaling the mana cost of the CH to the HP healed, with the minimum cost being 400 mana? I doubt this is possible but then who knows?

CH may be unbalancing but under this system perhaps it would not be.

I have a 60 cleric too, and I would see this as reasonable.

"So I would be inclinded to agree with anyone here that complete heal is broken. "

Every cleric knows ch is broken.

But you NEED ch or the entire game has to be redone. VI designed the game around it. simple enough

OK, now you've done it. It's time for me to step in with a word.

Its exactly what alot of people on this board sound like.

You are all doomsayers because you feel as if by improving other classes, the druid class is somehow hurt, something which bespeaks of bitter envy, not a desire for class balance.
Doomsayers? Not me. And please point your finger somewhere else. The druid community here has not wished ill on other classes by any means, and for you to imply that we can't be happy for others when they're improved is ludicrous and it's a dubious observation. The longtime community of players has first and foremost addressed issues of balance and hasn't been envious of clerics. Druids want to remain druids and not become clerics. The ones who did left the class to play clerics full-time, capisci?


Druids are not meant to replace clerics on raids, I fail to see where this conception comes from. I have never, ever, seen an official proclamation by Verant saying druids should be the cleric replacement. So why the wish to be?
The conception comes from people like you, Meiren, who come to this board thinking they know what we want and stand for. Druids here have never wanted to replace clerics. And yet, visitors from other class forums come here to tell us what we said when we never said such a thing. Hearsay is totally unreliable, you know. So please forget about what you heard.

Meiren, you are entitled to express your opinions here even if they are different or disagree with those of others. But characterizing an entire forum as doomsayers does not lend to your credibility at all.

It seems you step in and clear up that fact when it is posted by other classes, Foxfyre. However, if it is so prevalent I'd remind you the rest of the game is not out to get you, we read your board too.

And yes, your people here act that way, and have the attention of VI to do so, despite the fact that some of the "leaders of the community" may disagree and deny the fact.

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics ...

If others read this board and retained anything at all, then they wouldn't come here and insult us with revisionist statements.

If you really want to be able to primary heal in a group (outside FG), you should be asking for a HoT spell. I've said that many times before. Many clerics now (I would say all but the most old-school die-hard CH fanatics) use a HoT as their mainstay heal for XP grouping. I know I do. In grouping, CH is really more of a novelty thing, to try for the absolute biggest heal you can get (ever hear the cleric asking the tank how much it hit for?). For grouping just about anywhere (even CT), Cel Elixer is the heal of choice. IMO, THAT is what you should be trying to get.

I would love a HoT spell in addition to a percentage based heal.

The idea around a percentage based heal is not to replace clerics but to "lock" all classes healing abilities so they do not become obsolete with each expansion.

If Druids (and other classes) got a percent heal two years ago we would not be talking about balance now in the same way.

All classes that could heal would be locked in the same exact heal power...

For example (just an example)

Clerics 100% 400 mana
Druids 33% 500 mana (3 Druids = 1 Cleric)
Shamen 25% 500 mana (4 Shamen = 1 Cleric or 2 Shamen if mob is slowable)
Paladins 20% 600 mana (5 Paly's = 1 Cleric)
Rangers 15% 600 mana (7 Rangers = 1 Cleric)
Beastlords 15% 600 mana (7 Beastlords = 1 Cleric)

(Mana just tossed in as a way to fine tune healing power)

No matter if players have 1k hit points of 20k hit points in EQ expansion # 25 all those classes would keep the same relative healing power.

Healing Balance would be done once and for all.

P.S. A percentage based heal would heal based on the "total" hit points and not how much healing needs to be done.

P.P.S. The numbers and such are just VERY rough ideas. I'm sure Verant would fine tune them to fit what they desire each classes power to be

I'm telling you, you don't want any heal that even remotely resembles CH. Take it from someone who knows. I'm a strong advocate of removing CH from the game, even if it means re-balincing every big encounter there is.

You will end up becoming just like clerics: whores. Instead of a CH ho, you will be a PH ho (percentage heal). You will NOT like the role it will force you into, I guarantee it.

A 33% heal is not even close to a CH nor is the very idea of adding a percentage base heal an attempt to get into the boring CH chain.

It is designed to "scale" so that it will never become obsolete and to a lessor extent allow raids to continue or not be called off if a raid is short one Cleric.

No one in their right mind would want three Druids instead of a Cleric but I'll tell you what... being able to start a raid until a Cleric can be found or continue a raid if a Cleric had to leave would sure be nice don't you think?

If players have 2k or 15k hit points (who knows where the game will be two years from now) a percentage based heal will not lose power.

The "only" reason that CH has grown more powerful is due to the percentage nature of the spell (yes yes I know it "really" only heals 10k right now) and aside from removing CH from the game or capping it the only "fair" way to keep the other healing classes (not just Druids) in the game is to provide them with percentage based heals.

SOV came out - Healing classes needed a bump in healing
SOL came out - Healing classes need a bump in healing
POP comes out - Guess what? *smiles*

Had all classes had a percentage based heal back in '99 then imagine all the agravation that could have been avoided.

Verant would still have the ability to "tweek" the healing power of the classes by adjusting the cast/recast time and/or mana usage so it would not overpower any one class.

With a percentage based heal a good raid leader would want Druids on the raid. We could effectively heal the caster groups and in the even of an emergency (Clerics goes LD or dies in the middle of the big fight) Druids could step in and "hold the fort" so to speak.

Since no one in their right mind would take 3-4 Druids over 1 cleric if given the option it would not cut down on Clerics desirability on the big raids nor would it in single groups as you either are in a zone that needs CH or you are not.

Single groups do not have the room to "fit" 3-4 Druids to equal the power of 1 Cleric *smiles*

Also keep in mind that a percentage based heal only makes sense if you have alot of hit points. The only people with alot of hit points are tanks or super buffed players on major raids.

So this percentage based heal would be used on the big raids and not solo or in groups for in a group you either do not need that much healing or if you due then only CH will cut it.

Only raids (for the most part) super buff all the players so that a percentage based heal makes sense and would have the room for multiple Druids (or other healers) to fill in if a Cleric drops.

Despite appearances I am a Cleric (and a Ranger and a Druid).

I've seen things from the point-of-view of a mid '99 Cleric competing for groups against Druids.

I've seen things as a Kunark generation melee in groups looking for healers.

I've also seen things as a 20-40 Kunark Generation Druid getting invites to groups.

In the first place, as a Cleric back in the pre-Kunark days, Clerics had a tough job getting groups, especially during levels 14 to 43. Clerics could buff and heal, not much else.
Groups were looking for SoW for the puller, snare for the mobs, harmony to break multiples. Tanks loved DS. In the higher of the mid-levels, groups also like regen, evac, group port. Clerics did still get groups, mainly on the fact that healers were required and Clerics (being a one-trick class) were more prepared to play that role. I remember joining groups containing a Druid and the Druid would say 'thank goodness we have a Cleric, I can stop healing and do the interesting stuff' read DoTs, Nukes, etc. In those days, Cheal was not useless exactly but very much a situational spell, I doubt I could have cast more than 3 without going OOM and with the long cast time and amount healed varying according to timing. Clerics were valued not for Cheal or buffs but for 90percent rez. That was pretty much the case post-Kunark too, Seb groups waiting at the zonein for a Cleric and a Chanter were not looking for a Chealer but a rezzer.

Looking at this from the Druid perspective, I never had problems getting a group as a Druid in LOIO, groups desperate for healers and Druids very welcome. My main problem was not enough mana to snare, DS and heal. Thank you SK, necro, Ranger for snaring. Thank you Mage for DS.
I have a second Druid (L24) on another account and I was surprised to get invited to a OT group (on the higher level side), I declined but the group was very serious in the offer. Druids ARE valued.

From the melee perspective, I remember grouping between 33 and 43 in OT, often Druids would join up and then leave the group in the lurch because 'xp was too slow' and 'better xp soloing'. k, cya bye.
Tanks value Clerics because they dont blow all their mana on DoTs and nukes and even though they have no utility support spells, maintaining health is the critical factor. Of course the ideal situation was Cleric AND Druid in the group.

Do Druids really want to be healers ? or are you looking for a niche and healing is the obvious area ?

I would break a high-end raid into 3 sections of players.

The damage takers and support classes. (Defensive Warrior, Cleric, Shaman) Secondary (Druids, Shaman, Paladins, SKs, Rangers)

The debuffers. (Chanter, Mage, Bard, Druid)

The damage dealers. (Monk, Rogue, Wizard, Ranger) Secondary (Mage, Druid, Paladin, Warrior, SK)

RotG is valuable in high-end gigs, don't dismiss it, over a long fight it can help a lot, especially against DoT mobs and AE.
Seasons is a niche spell that everyone wants. Wizards and Druids nearly always prefer PotG to BoA.

Using the above classification Druids fit into all 3 areas, very much valued as fill-in healers to cover CH gaps and rampage.
Competant debuffers although I think there is scope for improving this role.
Decent damage dealers, Druids and Mages doing enough damage to have that as a primary role despite my classification above.

I do think that a lot of these threads/posts are too much focused on healing. Druids and Shaman are a lot closer to Clerics in healing ability (spell wise) since Kunark.
I think the bottom line is - The highend gigs have been created to require Cheal (or much more powerful alternative heals should they be introduced). Should the healing task/burden be shared more than it currently is ? Probably
Should the one-trick class be given more versatility ? Certainly.
Can healing for Druids be considered in isolation from Clerics, Shaman and Paladins ? No.

I hope this post doesnt sound negative, I value and respect Druids, high-end raids would be much less viable without them.

It's not the amount healed that kills us it's the ratio.

Most people look and say - ahhhh A level 60 Druid can heal almost 1k. Wow!

They do not realize that we heal 1k for 400 mana while a Cleric can CH for 400 mana.

It's not the amount it's the ratio.

Druids - 2.4 to 1
Clerics - 10+ to 1 for CH
Clerics - 4+ to 1 for HoTs


How often do Clerics cast their 1k heal on raids vs CH or Hot's or Group heals?

This is the issue.

As far as filling rolls in raids. Few raid leaders want players who can fill all three rolls but are 3rd or 4th best at it. Now that Mages have pets that are fixed they are wanted over Druids for damage output.

The reason Druids want better heals is not because we want to sit on our @#%$ and med/heal but this is what most Raid Leaders ask of us and to be quite frank - due to the poor mana ratio of our heals, lack of a percentage heal, group heal or HoT - Druid suck @#%$ at raid healing.

Not why do Raid Leaders ask Druids to heal?

Simple - there is nothing else for us to do once the fighting starts. For sure we "could" nuke but if we nuke early we agg and die so we end up waiting till the end of battle and while the battle goes on we burn our mana trying to keep our group alive from the AOE damage :)

I do think that a lot of these threads/posts are too much focused on healing. Druids and Shaman are a lot closer to Clerics in healing ability (spell wise) since Kunark.

Druids haven't recieved a real healing increase since Kunark. CB and NT are both about the same in mana efficiency as SH is, which places us about even in direct healing efficiency as a level 34 cleric. Paladin direct heals are almost as efficient as ours until you figure in specs and scm, and paladins get HOTs and a killer group heal on top of that. So, since the release of Kunark, we have done nothing but fall further behind clerics in healing power as everyone has gained more and more hp.

I think the reason you see more focus on healing is because the lack of healing upgrades have set us so far behind the curve. We can nuke efficiency wise as well as a level 60 wizard with their best Kunark nuke, and we aren't too far behind them dps wise there either. We can heal efficiency wise as well as a level 34 cleric. Does that seem right? Are druids as a priest class supposed to be that bad at healing? Should we be so bad that a hybrid class can out heal us in many situations?

Should the one-trick class be given more versatility

Clerics can heal (the best), HOT (the best), dot, nuke, res (the best), ds (stackable with all other ds), root (top of the line), stun (up there with the best), invis to undead, buff ac (the best), buff hp (the best), direct heal (the best), point blank ae nukes (better than druids), cures (top of the line), group heal (the best), buff resists, and more. Which one trick were you talking about? The only reason they are thought of as one trick ponies is because they have one trick that is so much better than any other trick in the game. A dog playing dead is a neat trick, but no one cares if a talking dog can play dead, he can talk.

As it is, clerics are supposed to become more 'well rounded' in their caster balancing, but if druids aren't given more healing power and some unique ability to bring to raids, I don't see much future for the class other than soloing, powerleveling useful classes, and a two box porter.

Wicked,

I'll keep this simple. I think you are laughable. You come here spewing forth nonsensical arguments with nothing but your bias. No constructive proof. You ignore the fact that everything you say has been said and countered time and time again over the past 10 months.

I tell you this, I am a good druid. I am a very good druid. I know this game well, from melee and caster perspectives from near three years of playing the game entirely too much.

Its not bragging. Its simply the way it is.

To quote a cleric I've been guilded with for most of the past year, "If Aidon can't keep the wizard group alive, noone can".

Guess what? In many raid situations..its getting to be an absolute bitch keeping the wizard group alive. Let alone the cleric group who is Rodding like mad. Or the secondary melee group I've been given to heal, alone, because we only have 3 or 4 clerics who are busy with the MT and I'm the person the raid leader trusts next to heal them (Because the shaman are busy healing the clerics/mages).

Please stop with this ridiculous attitude that we must suck because we know the druid class has issues. I don't suck. MF, doesn't suck. Cassea doesn't suck. Surely you aren't suggesting that Sobe sucks?

'Druids haven't recieved a real healing increase since Kunark'

Before Kunark -
Clerics : GHeal, SupHeal, CHeal
Druids : GHeal
Shammies : Gheal

After Kunark -
Clerics : Gheal, SupHeal, Remedy, DivineLight, CelHeal, CelElixr, CHeal
Druids : GHeal, SupHeal, ChloroBlast, NaturesTouch
Shammies : Gheal, SupHeal, ChloroBlast, Torpor

I take on board what you are saying about ratio but the difference pre-Kunark was the difference between GHeal and SupHeal/CHeal and now it is the difference between NaturesTouch and CelElixr/CHeal. My point wasnt to say that Druids are close to Clerics in mana/hp ratio but that lots of Healing has been added for Druids since Kunark. Unfortunately once mobs >32k hp started to be introduced, we were forced into the Cheal/defensive warrior cycle.

'Paladin direct heals are almost as efficient as ours'

Paladins get LoH, SupHeal and HWoP. HWoP has the best group heal ratio but Paladins tend to have smaller mana pools than priest classes and (as you mention) don't have the AA investment to extend this further.

'We can nuke efficiency wise as well as a level 60 wizard with their best Kunark nuke, and we aren't too far behind them dps wise there either'

Suggesting perhaps that the legacy of the Vision (tm) has eased Druids from a secondary healer role into a nuker role. Nice for Evo Druids.

'We can heal efficiency wise as well as a level 34 cleric'
But a L60 Druid will beat the pants off a L34 Cleric in a healing contest. Mana pool, AAs and Natures Touch doing significantly more healage than the SupHeal available to the Cleric. You could argue that a L60 Cleric has the same heal efficiency as a L39 Cleric but I wouldnt be inviting a L39 to a top-end gig. Whereas I want as many Druids as I can get because of their healing and damage potential, as well Seasons, ROTG and ports.

1 - 'Clerics can heal (the best)' - no arguments there
2 - 'HOT (the best)' - HOT is a Heal, see point 1. CelElixr heals for less and more mana than Torpor but the restrictions on Torpor make it unsuitable as a melee healing spell during battle. CelElixr is 1 of the 2 significant differences between Druid and Cleric healing (Cheal being the obvious other).
3 - 'dot' - We can DOT and they stack, I personally never use them. Very few Clerics solo, Clerics at high-end gigs would be slapped about if they started DoTing. They are poor DoTers compared to Necros, Shammies and Druids.
4 - 'nuke' - I was surprised when VI upgraded Judgement. It does make Clerics almost viable nukers but someway behind Wizards, Druids, Mages. Slightly better than Chanters and much better than Necros. Again I don't nuke unless it is to kill agro Greens and even then the cast and recast time make Cleric nukes a pain. I didnt ask for nuke upgrades and I dont remember seeing them on the original balance list. Not sure why this happened.
5 - 'res (the best)' - no arguments, 96percent is better than 93 percent (Necro), 90 percent (Paladin) and 90 percent (rez stick). Not a unique ability for Clerics and people often eat 90percent rezzes in raids gone wrong.
6 - 'ds (stackable with all other ds)' Cast on a mob not a player therefore requires recast many times compared with conventional DS AND the mob has a good chance of resisting. Stackability is nice.
7 - 'root (top of the line),' - Clerics get the same roots as Chanters, Necros, Shammies. Druid AA root is probably the best. Not much to seperate the other classes.
8 - 'stun (up there with the best)' - disagree, Chanters get the best stuns. Clerics do use Force/Sound of Force in places like 6R/Seb (along with Pallies) and maybe Stun Command in AE groups. Recast time is horrendous.
9 - 'invis to undead' - along with Paladins, Necros, SKs, Chanters and WIZARDS!
10 - 'buff ac (the best)' - no arguments there
11 - 'buff hp (the best)' - no arguments there except the possible exception that casters will nearly always prefer POTG. If a Robe wearing nuker is getting hit by a top mob they are Dead, regardless of having BoA or POTG, they will nearly always go for extra mana. Exception is sometimes Chanters who make a career of getting thumped and like the extra HP. If Aego has been MGBed then everyone gets it and most likely keeps it. Other times I often see caster groups getting POTG and a Naltrons top-up.
12 - 'Direct Resists' - Disagree. Druids, Shammie and Chanters all have better resist spells. The only time I ever cast resists is to fill up my first few slots with 'craps' for dispell mobs. All other times I get the best i.e. Chanter (GRM), Druid (Seasons), Shammie (Epuration).

'Which one trick were you talking about?' - I should have qualified that statement :) 1 trick in high-end gigs (Cheal), 2.5 tricks overall (Cheal, 96Percent Rez and (0.5)BoA). Rez is like Evac, something to do when the caca hits the rotating thing.

'but if druids aren't given more healing power and some unique ability to bring to raids, I don't see much future for the class other than soloing, powerleveling useful classes, and a two box porter.'

I agree that Druids need more healing. On a seperate thread I suggested that Druids get the same GroupHeals as Clerics (4 levels after) and get some of the higher direct heals at earlier levels. Clerics would welcome the extra healing power that would add. At high-end gigs, everyone is on the same side working towards the common objective, Us VS the Mobs. I also agree that Druids need a niche, something of value to groups, something applicable to the high-end game and not necessarily soloing.

ITU? I can't remember the last time I cast that. Mok and Mor are nice but if you're in the rotation you are casting one spell, no nukes, roots etc. I do agree druids need a healing upgrade but to think clerics are balanced is insane. Guess thats why so many are bots now while people have gone on to play a class thats actually fun.


Menleniel

What is the difference between:

Heal 400 for 200 mana
Heal 800 for 400 mana
Heal 1200 for 600 mana
Heal 1600 for 800 mana

They are all the same. MAYBE just maybe slightly better due to faster casts but they are all the same heal.

I stand by the fact that Druids healing power has been bumped from:

'99 1.8
'02 2.4

and Clerics

'99 4.0 (CH)
'02 10.0 (CH on 5000 hp tank)
'02 16.0 (CH on 8000 hp tank)
'02 4.0 (Hot's)

On high level raids it's all about ratio and being able to sustain heals through a battle with an add or two.

Druids CAN keep a group up till we run out of mana. Once the mana is gone not only can we NOT heal but neither can we nuke, buff or do anything.

A percentage heal would fix this but if Verant does not like this idea then even a slight bump from 2.4 to 2.8 or 3.0 would do the trick

or

Give us a HoT or small Group Heal

What is the diffrence between:

1615 damage for 450 mana
1150 damage for 320 mana

They are all the same. MAYBE just maybe slightly better due to faster casts but they are the same damage spell.

Hey Aidon,

I really don't care if you like my opinions or not.

I know my posts don't fit in on this board because I don't agree with alot of the pity games about the druid class that the majority of people on this board try to portray in an effort to get upgrades.

My post, unlike many of yours has facts in it and I don't push things so far to the extreme like you and the doomsayers constantly do. Go read the numbers I posted and dismiss them. Go PROVE to me that druids heal at 45% of the power of a cleric on single target direct heals minus CH.

On the contrary, I've found many of your posts way more to the extreme of 'laughable'. I mean, come on, I've read some of the crap you've posted in class balancing. Your post trying to convince people that xping mobs quad for 100s of pts of dmg takes the cake. Do you really expect people to take that seriously ? But hey, some people gotta take things to the far end extreme to provide false information. Way to totally skew things to try to force your point on people with false data! Cry wolf too many times and it will bite you back in the @#%$. I'm sure Verant's having a good laugh reading this board.

I'm not gonna sit back and let the doomsayers club bend me over and expect me to take it up the @#%$ and like it.

Are some good? Are some bad? Yes to both. But when people wanna stir the pot with @#%$ that they can't even heal in an xp group because druid healing is so @#%$ is a crock. Maybe they want to portray to people pity for the druid class to get upgrades, I sure as hell do not.

Only going to say this once: Stick to the issues please and cut the crap talk out, thanks.

My post, unlike many of yours has facts in it and I don't push things so far to the extreme like you and the doomsayers constantly do. Go read the numbers I posted and dismiss them. Go PROVE to me that druids heal at 45% of the power of a cleric on single target direct heals minus CH.

There are a plethora of threads with numbers galore about healing. I'm tired of reiterating the same factoids over and over again for every two bit who slides along arguing the same worn arguments every day.

Druid healing is not sufficient for what we are required to do in the game.

That simple.

You want facts? Try looking at the the State of the Druid.

You want more Facts? Try looking at the threads that lead up to the State of the Druid and the first drafts of the State of the Druid.

You want more facts? Read one of the many threads Scirocco's posted on the matter.

Its there. Do not rail against us because you are not willing to research.