I guess there should be some talk about the animal/plant tags in the game.

After all there are a ton of useless spells in our book because creatures that are clearly animals are not tagged as such (plus Dire charm is in the mix).

Plant spell we have is 100% worthless. By the time you get it there is nothing that is low enough level for you to charm that you would bother charming.

Making our Dire Charm plant and animal based would actually open up some more possibilities to us. Or just make all our charm spells work on either and we could be using Call of Karana in FG and Scarlet Desert.

If of course.. mushrooms and vines are plants..

Unfortunately in Fungus Grove, the Lotus and Mushrooms are monsters. I feel these should be plants. I also feel we should have a higher level of charm for plants and animals. Just doesn't seem right that our spells are useless in higher level zones.

For the love of all that's good and wholesome and worthy of respect...make the damned apes and raptors in CT animals. I'm not sure if they are low enough to charm, but I'd at least like the option to try.

And ffs, a spider is an animal. Our spell isn't charm mammal. Its charm animal. I can charm griffons and fishes but I can't charm any bugs??? Someone didn't make it past grade school bio I suspect...

For the love of all that's good and wholesome and worthy of respect...make the damned apes and raptors in CT animals. I'm not sure if they are low enough to charm, but I'd at least like the option to try.

Aidon, that would ruin the whole balance of the game. We're not allowed to use Harmony there. However, Lull Animal just *might* work.

- Chronomis

There are just not enough animals in game through all levels. Even necros have much more undead to charm than we.

I think all our charms (including dire charm) should be extended to charm plants too, of course plants have to be tagged as plants first.


**edit
actually this would be a great AA class ability. Extending charms to plants.

Hmm, I'd just always assumed it was a running joke on the part of the dev team that nothing that looked like an animal actually was.

Animals (Kingdom Animalia) includes both vertebrates and invertebrates. The Druid's animal line spells currently affect most mammals and fish. The animal kingdom however includes: insects, arachnids, reptiles, mammals, birds, worms etc.

If you can think of animals in the game, add the zone and name of the animal to the list.

Not Affected zone: animal/mob type
Kunark:
Old Sebilis: Necrosis Scarab, Gangrenous Scarab, Frenzied Pox Scarab, A Sepsis Scarab, A Pox Scarab, Leprous Scarab
Burning Wood: A Cinder Hornet, An Ash Hornet, An Ember Hornet, A Scoriae Hornet, apes/gorillas

Velious:
Velketor's Lab: A Blizzard Hunter, A Blizzard Spider, A Frenzied Velium Broodling, A Frenzied Velium Stalker, A Velium Broodling, A Velium Hunter, A Velium Stalker, Crystal Eyes, Crystal Fang, Shard Spider , The Brood Master, The Brood Mother
Dragon Necropolis: A Phase Spider
Iceclad: Lodizal

Luclin:


List of animals affected by our animal spell line.
Affected zone: animal/mob type
Old World:
Oasis: crocodiles
StoneBruntMountains: some pandas, cats
Karanas & other old world zones: wolves, bears, griffons

Velious:
Siren's Grotto: Sea horse, Sea Elephant, Manatee, Sea Walrus
Dragon Necropolis: A Carrion Bat
Iceclad: Cougars
Western Wastes: Velium Hound, Ice Burrower, Brontotherium, Glacier Mastadon, Icehackle, Stronghorn, Tantor

Luclin:
Umbral Plains: wolves, Gargantuan Zelniak
The Grey: worms

Animals from Lotusfly's Dire Charm summary


Fungi and plants are different Kingdoms. So technically the fungi in Fungal Grove are not plants. That being said, I believe I read that our Charm Plant spell not only works on Cacti in Overthere but also the Fungus Men in Swamp of No Hope. However, Old Sebilis Fungus Men are not affected by the spell (level restrictions?). So I don't know what's the deal here. Option is to either remove fungi from plant line all together or include it under the influence. One low/mid level spell for plants seems to be an incomplete spell line.

I'm in favour of an Animal Slow spell (we have Animal Tash/Charm/Fear/Haste) however I'd prefer to see the raiding abilities of Druids corrected first. Any changes to our animal line will certainly help our xp'ing.

This list is far from exhaustive. Please post any corrections or additions

--
Kenuon
of the Bitter Druids

Phyla of Kingdom Animalia. Mammals fall under Phylum Chordata

Anybody else think our Dire Charm should work on Plants too? Not sure what I'd charm, but still.

Not Affected
Burning Woods: All of the apes and Gorillas




I realize this was brough to their attention when Kunark was released and the answer was something about them being undead. I do not think that is the case anyway. Even if they are undead, they are undead animals, do they prevent enchanters from charming things that are undead or animals?

If Verant's reasoning behind the exclusion of the Burning Woods' apes and gorillas is because they are undead, I'd accept this. An undead animal is unnatural and a Druid's power deals with the natural, so I can understand their reasoning. I've added it to the list because it is/was an animal.

Enchanters can mez/charm everything that falls within the level range of the spell except those mobs flagged as uncharmable (particular giants in Kael). Interestingly enough Necromancers can also mez anything like Enchanters but are restricted to undead mobs for charm.

--
Kenuon
of the Bitter Druids

" I realize this was brough to their attention when Kunark was released and the answer was something about them being undead. I do not think that is the case anyway. Even if they are undead, they are undead animals, do they prevent enchanters from charming things that are undead or animals? "

I've said similar before. When someone says it would be imbalancing to tag ALL animals AS animals, and ALL plants AS plants, I point to exhibit A: the Enchanter. With only occasional and few exceptions, a 60th level chanter can charm ANY non-named mob type provided it falls within level range, and in fact can charm most named mobs as well.

I believe that chanters should be able to charm sentient life forms (basically, those with language), and druids should be able to charm "dumb" animals and plants. That, to me, would be far more balanced game-wise, and definitely more true to traditional RPG charm distinctions.

~Firemynd

Old Sebilis: Necrosis Scarab, Gangrenous Scarab, Frenzied Pox Scarab, A Sepsis Scarab, A Pox Scarab, Leprous Scarab

Frogs aren't animals?!? :D

" Frogs aren't animals?!?"

Given that frogloks can be wizards (INT casters), they'd technically qualify as humanoid more than ogres, shamans, vah shir, barbarians... hmm... even woodelves and dwarves.

Besides, do you know how much skill and coordination it takes to cast a spell while landing a perfect backflip? We can't even cast a level 1 spell while walking a step or two... ;)

~Firemynd

We've been through this a couple of times in the past I think.

Kingdom Animalia pretty much encompasses anything that breathes, with the exception of a few single-celled organisms, fungi and some plants and the like. Everquest was not based on the scientific classification of Animals. Instead it was based on a AD&D definition of "animal."

So break out your old 1st and 2nd edition AD&D rules - you'll see that the "everything" tag was hold/charm monster There were restrictions for Dominate Animal, Plant and Person. Various things that looked like animals could not be dominated with the "animal" spells because they were undead, planar, or something similar.

The short of it is that Animals in Everquest are not defined by Kingdom Animalia.

Yeah I would be happy with what the everyday joe would call an animal. Cats, monkeys, alligators, walrus, and so on. Mostly the mammals with a few exceptions in EQ. I dont think insects should qualify, nor do I think sentient (high enough int to have a culture and casters - ie frogloks, va shir) animals should qualify.

I still think it should be Charm Plant/Animal though. Call of Karana on a TT in Fear /drool

nm....missed Storms post...

List of animals affected by our animal spell line.
Affected zone: animal/mob type
Siren's Grotto: Sea horseYou forgot the non-legged land creatures in SG, which can sometimes even be dire charmed (e.g. sea elephants). Umbral Plains: Elysian Remains?Since they're skeletons and you think they're animals, I'm guessing you haven't been there.

Why shouldn't we be able to charm insects?

If it's because you think druids have no influence over insects, take another look at our main DoT line. What do you think we are summoning and controlling but swarms of insects? If we can control insects en masses, we certainly should be able to control insects one-on-one!

Im reading this, and this post doesnt have to be about our animal charms. I beleive we should an expanded array of spells towards animals. ANIMAL SLOW, hell even make it out door only.

Let me list a 3 classes, and a 2 lines of spells they each get, YOU find the missing link

Chanter-
1. Can Slow any type of mob
2 . Can Charm any type of mob
(Obviously give or take a few)

Necro
1. Can Slow any Undead
2. Can charm any undead
(Obviously give or take a few)

Druid
1. Can slow___________
2. Can charm any animal
(Obviously give or take a few)

I could also through in an animal mez, but i know thats to much.....Ill just stick with root thank you =)


[image size way over limit, sorry]

Fran wrote: Frogs aren't animals?!? :)

Frogs are animals but frogloks are human-like (anthropoid). If humans undergo lycanthropy to become werewolves, then by some dark magical art humans were mixed with frogs to become frogloks. Frogloks and the like, are greater than mere animals with their human-like abilities, so go beyond the realm of the Druid animal spell line.


Stormhaven wrote: The short of it is that Animals in Everquest are not defined by Kingdom Animalia.

Aye, that much is clear. Norrath is not Earth and perhaps a reasonable explanation would be animals on Norrath are not the same as on Earth.


Ligge wrote: I dont think insects should qualify.

Considering that worms are qualified as animals in EQ, I'm not sure why insects are left out. Would you call the humble earthworm an animal or a worm? Scirocco raised the important issue of the need for consistent Druidic influence.


Abru wrote: Since they're skeletons and you think they're animals, I'm guessing you haven't been there.

heh, wrong guess. If your computer ran close to a slide show in SoL like mine does I think you'd visit Umbral as infrequently as I do, much less hunt there. I knew someone would pick me up on that, thus the question mark. I've read there is a charmable mob in Umbral. In fairness to Verant it's appropriate to list high level content that is can be influenced by the Druid animal line. So, what is it?


--
Kenuon
of the Bitter Druids

The wolves guarding The Remains of Vah Kerath can be charmed, but there's also about 8 of them there, 7 of which will kick your butt if you try to charm one. :)

The Gargantuan Zelniaks can also be charmed if you happen to find one that's level 53. However, they can't be snared, which can make things interesting. With one of these charmed while I was helping out solo, I was able to KS a full group of people without too much trouble.

I finally played with my charm animal line for the first time a long while. I forgot how fun it could be. Blue con big worm pet while killing Sun Revs for shards in the Grey. Grouped up for fun and the monk was pulling massive trains between clearings of the lake. My giant worm pet was rockin n rollin!

about animals and charm

VI give us the class aaskill the pet discipline, it would be usefull ...
(on a side note enchanter need this skill too)

Treants are a sentient plant-based race, yet are effected by plant-affecting spells.

Anyway, I find it amusing that a griffon (a mythical/magical creature) is an animal, while a spider or insect is not....

speaking of the guardians arround vah kherra remains...

when i try to DC one of them i get a resist...
not 'too high' .. but resist...

even with glamour :(

since i'm ally with them, i really doubt the others would aggro... doesnt make sense there...

havent tried call of karana though.

obviously, when dc fails they aggro, so be prepared to evac / run fast ;)

they cast pretty high druid spells ... (55+)

i also played some with zhelniaks... they are fun to charm, but a real problem when it wears off... not something you wanna deal with solo ;)

Do you want the real answer?

The Druid Class was poorly thought out back in '98 '99 and it lead to lines of spells that would be overpowering if we could do it all.

Despite the fact that we have entire lines of animal control type spells they have told us time and again that to give us the same type of control over animals that chanters have would be unbalancing.

Let's be honest here... most of the non-humanoid type mobs could be considered animals in the traditional sense but technically there is no difference between a Lizardman and a Lizard - both are animals.

What does make the difference is the level of intellect so to speak. This allows Verant freedom to choose what they think we can charm and what we cannot.

This is the difference between an Animal Charm and a regular charm that can charm almost anything.

Our charm spell is not powerful enough to charm mobs that have a certain level of intellect.

Now clearly a few mobs do not make sense but most do.

Undead of course being the exception.

Maybe if, instead of charm animal we could simply have the same charm as chanters but have all mobs tagged with an "intel" number. We could do Lessor Charms and Chanters Greater Charms which would mean that we could charm the "dumb" stuff while they could do "smarter" mobs.

Maybe this would have been a better way to do it or maybe I'm just losing my mind again :)

Burning Wood: A Cinder Hornet, An Ash Hornet, An Ember Hornet, A Scoriae Hornet, apes/gorillas

The hornets there count as "summoned" creatures. Therefore, since they're not exactly from our plane of exsistence (being summoned to fight here, and all...) they shouldn't count as animals.

Well, you used to be able to charm the monkeys and raptors in CT but now cant. When I was in my 20's Charming the apes was a basic part of fighting the temple. If they base the druid on having power over nature then we should have the ability to charm plants and animals AND they should be tagged properly.

The tags ARE NOT alined with D&D or Apes, lizzards and some of the other animals would be tagged since they are listed as animals in D&D and not treents and griffons. Why can we charm some apes, raptors and spiders and not others?

As for the spell being overpowering. Remember back when you charmed that griff and it plus it's target both ripped you to pieces when the charm broke... I do..

There are enough limits on our control..
one: level limits which should be removed at the higher levels.
Two: the animal tries to kill us when it breaks. and
three: we can only charm plants and animals. We cannot charm humanoids, undead, giants, dragons, etc...

If they tag all the plants and animals properly they can take the tags off the Griffons and Treents and even make restrictions like no "Giant Animals", fungus or insects which we could live with.

Elawnah wrote: " The hornets there count as "summoned" creatures."

Nah, the hornets got changed to normal monsters a few months back so our anti-summoned spells are no longer effective against them. Besides, they are insects. :)

" Bitter Monkeys" ?
I'm glad Druids aren't the only ones bitter!

--
Kenuon
of the Bitter Druids

Id love to see an AA skill that expanded our animal line.

Natures Elder. Cost 9.
A druid of this level has reach such a level of enlightment that they realize all living creatures are part of nature.

In essence, all non-summoned non-undead would be affectable by our animal line of spells.

Brings us close to enchanter for charm. at a huge cost. and still not able to charm undead like they can.

Could do it in stages even. 3 points per stage
1) Plants
2) Insects
3) Sentient

I believe they were changed to insects not monsters.

Remember that patch message about retagging a bunch of stuff insects. Coincided with hornets not being summoned.

Since there are currently no mob insect affecting spells, dunno for sure.

And if there are insect affecting spells in the works(why say they are insects if it don't make a difference) who would get them other than Druids? As Scirocco said, most the stuff you have keeled over the years has been by controlling swarms of insects.

all mobs in CT are uncharmable fyi, simply flagged immune.

Maybe in PoP:

Change Shape: Animal
AASkill 20 min, 144 min reset. (just guessing here)

Take on shape of a random animal/beast in the zone.
(No need to add new graphics for the zone)
Convert the druid to a temporary melee for those epic encounters or emergencies.

Possible Effects:

Damage Bonus on hits, Proc Damage
Boost Attack Skill, Strength
Boost AC, Agility, Dexterity
Boost Stamina, HP
Damage Mitigation
Boost Resist
Regen HP
Neg Wisdom (Need a disadvantage)
Neg or no Mana Regen (Disadvantage)