View Full Forums : The one balancing issue all druids agree on
ElethiomelTimberfall
07-16-2002, 08:15 AM
Verant, when you look at balancing our class, PLEASE remember that the one universal gripe druids have as a community is Wrath of Nature, the effect on our epic. There are basically two problems with the effect; the snare, and the duration.
First, due to the snare component, Wrath of Nature has numerous issues that make it much less useful than other epic effects:
* it is resisted far more often than the effect on other epics (except
the necro epic)
* it causes the epic to be useless against monsters that are
immune to changes in run speed
* it prevents Wrath of Nature from stacking with the necro epic DoT
* it overwrites the (far superior duration) Ensnare spell
Second, although Wrath of Nature does a fair amount of damage, it is applied over a 3-minute duration. This makes Wrath of Nature significantly less powerful than Winged Death, which most druids have well before they get their epic. In fact, in normal XP groups, Wrath of Nature rarely does more than a few hundred points of damage to a monster, as it is very rare for a fight to last the full duration of the effect.
In balancing our epic effect, my suggestion is as follows:
* Remove snare effect
* Change duration to 60-90 seconds
This makes the effect similar to the shaman epic. Theirs does slightly less damage, but ours is checked against magic resistance. This seems like a good balance to me.
I will edit this post if the discussion by other druids reaches a consensus other than the one I propose.
Glynna1
07-16-2002, 08:21 AM
Well, missed this when I posted under role of a druid, heh. I agree, epic is resisted too many times. Something needs to be done. Not sure if snare should be removed. Maybe it should be changed to root?
ElethiomelTimberfall
07-16-2002, 08:23 AM
No. Should definitely be removed IMHO. Anything that makes the epic useless on mobs immune to snare and root is BAD.
Cassea
07-16-2002, 08:23 AM
I see our epic as designed for one purpose - soloing or limited pulling in a single group.
On raids or in a group where the mobs dies fast the long cast time and 3 min duration for full effect makes the epic near useless but then again other epics are very situational.
It's kinda funny (or sad) but I think the ONLY reason the epic has a 3 min duration is due to the snare being added to it. I think that the dot time is tied to the snare time in code.
If they removed the snare the epic time could be reduced
OR
they could change the snare time to only a minute and thus the dot would be a minute.
The problem with this is that a 1 minute snare is VERY dangerous for soloing so it seems we can either have an epic that is good for soloing or an epic that is good for raids.
I do not think Verant will ever open up epics to be changed for if they did every class would want their epics looked at.
I would much rather they look at our other issues rather than do something to our epic.
I could make one recommendation though that might be doable if it could work in code....
Could they make it so that we could cast ensnare that would overwrite the snare on the epic without losing the dot effect? If so we could ensnare after the epic hits or make the dot portion hit the mob even if it is immune to snare.
I suspect that both the dot and snare are tied together and if they allowed ensnare to overwrite the epic effect we would lose the dot also.
FyyrLuStorm
07-16-2002, 08:30 AM
Besides the secondary stats...
The Lumi Staff is far more epic than the NWS damage wise.
Remove the snare effect.
ElethiomelTimberfall
07-16-2002, 08:32 AM
Yeah, it's funny. Chain-casting the lumi staff on one mob has approximately the same DPS as our epic, and much higher DPS on 4 mobs.
Araxx
07-16-2002, 08:38 AM
Were'nt they gonna implement Epics#2?
Well, I don't think they will change any epics#1, because they can do Epics#2...
Or am I drunk again?
Ciao for now!
kahlus
07-16-2002, 08:44 AM
I'm all for losing snare on the epic.
Seriena
07-16-2002, 08:49 AM
Yep, our epic effect stinks. I never use it personally.
Grolmn
07-16-2002, 09:03 AM
I seem to remember VI saying there will be no changes to epics as they feel they are good where they are.
Talyena Trueheart
07-16-2002, 09:09 AM
They don't want to change the effect, but there is one thing they could do at least. Make it where if a mob can't be snared, the dot part of the epic will still stick if not resisted. Our little magic based nuke/stun will still do damage even if the mob can't be stunned, so I know they could apply that to our epic effect as well.
Fayne Dethe
07-16-2002, 09:16 AM
Actually I think this is a non-issue to many people. I keep epic banked and never take it out anymore - the majority of classes move past their epics. Only a few classes still use their effects - clerics for res, wizzies for regen/hp, mage for pet if pets even allowed, and bards cause it effects their songs ;p. Seems like enchanters all use VOG nowdays so they dont use their epic generally, and even rogues are banking their epic at high end raiding (most other melee classes bank their epics FAR earlier than rogues). Anyway, I'd much rather Verant give druids a new dot since we havent gotten one since level 53 Kunark era. Use of epic isnt that much of an issue anymore - it works fine on non-raid circumstances unless mob is snare immune. With Luclin, there are more alternatives to epic like scimy off Rhag2, mace off Blood, various ranged slot items that are primary/secondary too, and some items from Velious like Sprinkler.
ElethiomelTimberfall
07-16-2002, 09:25 AM
Eh, I know plenty of druids that use their epic. In fact, I'd say that less that 1% of all druids of a level capable of getting their epic have a weapon that is better than the epic stat-wise.
Chronomis
07-16-2002, 09:29 AM
I do not think Verant will ever open up epics to be changed for if they did every class would want their epics looked at.
I recently decided to get my rogue's epic instead of my druid's epic, and I can say I'm very happy with it and see no need to ask for changes. Easy to get, effect is irresistable... heck, I don't even have to click on it! It even enhances the effect of the non-epic weapon I use in my other hand.
I guess you can see why I deemed it a better deal than the druid epic. I agree, remove the snare.
- Chronomis
Ellendilh Silvermist
07-16-2002, 09:31 AM
They're not going to change it almost 2 years after, otherwise, other classes (maybe except clerics) are going to cry bloody murder to have theirs changed as well. Changing it at the time they improved the shaman epic would have probably been acceptable, but we missed our turn...
Epic is a non-issue in my opinion (and yes, I still use the effect when I solo).
Bern Fizzlesticks
07-16-2002, 09:35 AM
I agree with this one totally. Either take snare out (my preference) or make the dot stick without unsnarable creatures. Stacking with Necro epics would be nice as well.
YanguBoris
07-16-2002, 09:48 AM
Although I agree, we have a better chance of getting a new heal before they change our epic.
Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-16-2002, 10:30 AM
Verant made a statement shortly after our petition that they would not be making any changes to the stats or effects of the epic weapons as they are pleased with their balance.
The druid epic effect will continue to suck.
If you think we have it bad, consider the poor necros. Their epic is basically the same as ours (slightly different stats and the effect is slightly diffent, but its still a snare/dot) and they have one of the top two or three most difficult epics in the game.
greggo rumbletum
07-16-2002, 10:40 AM
I use epic snare all the time; wouldn't kill me if it was taken away but I never signed the petition.
Given druids can play the game as many ways as they want there is not going to be a unanimous answer to this sort of thing.
Cassea
07-16-2002, 10:56 AM
Quote: I keep epic banked and never take it out anymore - the majority of classes move past their epics.
ROTFLMAO!
Please tell me what is obtainable that a Druid could possible swap out their epic for? The Druid epic has some of the best stats class-wise in the entire game. For sure not "the" best but pretty sweet.
We can argue about the effects of course but numbers wise our epic is great and "obtainable."
I don't think you can put up a better example of the top 1% Druids assuming the rest have the same equipment by a statement saying you keep you epic in the bank (it's not even WORTHY of leaving in a bag on your person LOL)
You mean you actually use your epic? *smiles*
I bet most Druids still do not even have there epic and the ones that do equip it with pride.
Sorry for the harsh nature of this post and for sure I'm glad you have obtained something better than your epic and can leave yours in the bank.
*smiles*
Str+15, Sta+15, Wis+20, HP+20, Mana+90, +10 to all saves and a damn nice 1HS weapon.
POS right? :)
Loegan Wolfheart
07-16-2002, 11:02 AM
I agree with Cassea. If they make Ensnare overwrite the epic snare, then they are not changing the epic, but rather balancing stacking issues (Sure, it's a technicality, but it does squash the changing epic issue). I could live with the three minute DoT if ensnare overwrote the epic snare... I bet alot of druids could.
Kessel Icewind
07-16-2002, 11:05 AM
Hehe since when did you Fayne speak for the majority of druids out there? It might be a 'non' issue for you but I for sure dont see my swapping out my epic for a long time. And every 60 druid I know or have seen still have it and equipt it.
Things that make me go hmmmmmm. ^_~
As for the effect, personally I dont care either way. Im happy with it just for the stats and I personally use it everyday /shrug
Loegan Wolfheart
07-16-2002, 11:06 AM
Please tell me what is obtainable that a Druid could possible swap out their epic for?
Depends on what you consider obtainable. Sprinker of the Spirits is better for raiding and has better stats overall. I still use my epic for soloing though. Hard to beat a 1600 dmg mana free DoT.
Cassea
07-16-2002, 11:06 AM
The BEST solution IMHO would be to allow a separate check for snare and the DOT.
This way we could ensnare first and then epic - the dot would stick but the 3 min snare would not overwrite the 10+ min ensnare as well as allowing snare proof mobs to be hit with the dot.
Ligge
07-16-2002, 11:07 AM
Actually I think this is a non-issue to many people. I keep epic banked and never take it out anymore - the majority of classes move past their epics.
We dont travel in the same world thats for sure. Sorry, most druids I know still have theirs and use it everyday.
Hell I hate the fact that is a scimi. Hate it! But stat wise I can do no better at the present time.
phluux
07-16-2002, 11:32 AM
There are some NToV weapons and items dropped in Ssra that are much better than the druid epic.
Also, how are most other epics situational? I would think that the only situational epics are ones with DoT effects. That would be, hmmm, 3 classes.
Tilien Venator
07-16-2002, 11:36 AM
Can only think of a very few weapons that can replace the leaf blower.
The Mace of Confusion - 21/23 1hb 25str 25wis 100hp/mana 25dr/cr proc
Sprinkler of Spirits - 7/16 ac20 10str 15wis 75hp/mana 20 all saves
These are the only weapons I'd replace the leaf blower with on raids. No clue on the rarity of the Mace, but the sprinkler has been almost non-existant for us.
Even when I do finally replace the blower on raids, I'm still going to keep it bagged for soloing and pharming. Plus, I still use it on grinds alot. When I play healer I usually don't have the mana to nuke, so I like to use it for a bit of free damage. Its not much, but it makes me feel better to pretend I'm helping out damage wise.
When it comes to solo'ing I love the snare on the epic. When quading and I get a add, I epic it and its now out of range of my mobs. When root-rotting its a slower snare then ensnare and gives me more time to get a root off before it hits me (rotting is boring, usually surfing...).
Only way I'd ever bank the epic is if they gave us a new right-click dot that didn't stack and did more damage. Otherwise, your a complete idiot to give up free damage. Many a time, I've gotten a add while medding, oom, etc and use the bracer/epic to kill the free exp someone brought me while still continuing to med.
Come to think about it, I even like that it overrides ensnare. I've found it useful before. Its a two year old weapon, let it be. It has some weaknesses, but they can be used to your advantage if you use them properly. I'd be personally sad if it was changed at this point. Only think that really bugs me is that necro's override it, but not to hard to work that out with the necro's in the group.
Kalinn
07-16-2002, 11:42 AM
i highly doubt i will ever replace my epic. i love scims to begin with and they are my favored weapon, and the leaves just cant be beat.
but above and beyond that, it represents the culmination of a LOT of hard work and effort, and months and months of anticipation and learning, by both myself and my guild. hundreds of deaths as my guild learned how to do VS and that final moment when he fell for the first time and i had my stone. over 4 days of my life waiting just to have my @#%$ chased around an ocean by a dragon for an hour. being drug into kedge at 2 am after a 104 hour fey camp because kedge was the last piece i needed and some of my guildmates wouldnt let me go to sleep until i got it. i was more proud of finishing my epic than of getting 60 or of anything else ive ever done in norrath.
there isnt an item in existence that would make me give up my scim. and it makes me a little sad that more people dont experience those same things and are always in the quest for bigger and badder stats.
Lystrahawk Northernfury
07-16-2002, 12:00 PM
I would actually disagree with this balancing issue. The druid epic is adequate in the realm of epic weapons. I, like many above, view my epic as an accomplishment and a situational useful tool. The dot damage on it is fine for being manaless. The snare affect (while annoying on immune mobs) is acceptable as well. In a group situation, the dps output usually will kill the mob before the end of the duration of your epic snare. In a solo situation, sure the snare effect doesn't last as long as our straight out ensnare but by now any experienced epic'ed solo'er should instinctively know when s/he needs to redo the epic. Think of it as being able to redot.
Having said this, I will probably never bank my Nature Walker's. While I do not use its effects much in raid/large group situations, it still has great stats, nice resists, and its a testament to some long boring camps ;)
ElethiomelTimberfall
07-16-2002, 12:04 PM
Well put Kalinn. My leafblower is my end-game weapon, and I'm only changing it out if there ls another epic turnin quest added a la Fiery Defender.
Fayne Dethe
07-16-2002, 01:16 PM
Ugh I had a list and all for upgrades to druid epic, but when the thread got moved, my post was not saved :( . Anyway, the epic really isnt a balancing issue - it wont help druids be wanted for end-game raiding. I still stand by my statement - the majority of classes still move past their epics, although some still hold on to them for a beneficial raid effect like manaless Res. Even if they remove the snare effect, I dont consider a slow casting, very low damage DOT to be of much benefit on raids - you really think that if Verant removed the snare effect that they would lower the effect time to one minute or so while keeping identical damage? That's the only way I could see it being of any use, but Verant would only remove the snare and leave it at 3 minute effect.
Anyway, for druids there are alot more choices now even excluding items from VT like the Torch of Judgement (yes very unobtainable). But stuff like Scimitar of Oak (not necessarily better but an alternative to epic), Sprinkler of Spirits, primal velium warhammer (after monks all get wraps of course) arent exactly out of line. The mace from Blood can be a pain to get because 30+ members of the guild will need to get the ring that acts as Emperor key, but the fight itself against Blood is not too bad. There are other items, too, like the Hammer of Ironfrost (Creator actually not all that hard but you do need one key that will allow the entire guild through), and the Shadowed Storm Sphere (ok, Shei isnt easy from what I heard ;p).
ElethiomelTimberfall
07-16-2002, 01:27 PM
Balancing isn't all about making a class "desirable", it's also about fixing things that are broken with the class. As it is now, we have an epic weapon that has all of the problems listed above, and now would be as good a time as any to look at it.
Sobe Silvertree
07-16-2002, 03:26 PM
We had this discussion way back - a long time ago. The outcome of the talks was to split the spell effects. IE: this would not effect anyone but would increase the overall effectiveness of the weapon. I too would hate for the Snare effect to be removed, I would like this to be a Check like they Changed Cleric Stun, IE: 2 part, check for Snare if immuned, land DoT.
3 mins is fine for something that is manaless.
Verant said no change.
But that was then.
Oldoaktree
07-16-2002, 03:43 PM
On the post above about the majority of classes moving beyond their epic, I would categorically agree with that for t he melee and hybrid classes, and categorically disagree with it for the casters.
Epics were designed to buff all the relevant stats for the class using it. It is hard to surpass those combinations. While I see how nice the water sprinkler is, it really is a choice to go for fewer hp (Sta plus hp on NWS should, I think, add more than the 75 hp sprinkler does), less str in order to add the 20 ac and 10 to all resists. It is not a clear choice and it is a fairly rare drop.
I know of exactly one caster in my guild that has upgraded "past" their epic...a necro who went for big hp on a weapon lcea dropped. While some other casters have secondary weapons they use situationally (a stun proc, a good melee ratio for dueling, etc), on the whole it seems most casters stick with their epic right through.
Certainly true for Wizards. Mages. Chanters. Clerics. More questionable for the three classes with Dots (Shaman, Druid, Necro) but the vast majority of the people in those 3 classes still keep their epic as their main in my experience.
I posted the other thread because I am genuinely curiuos about what happens as you push to the very highest levels of the game...the true end game...whether those new drops are enough reason to switch.
Oldoaktree
07-16-2002, 03:51 PM
On the Epic Mark 2 thing, I think we all heard those rumors. I seriously doubt they will ever come to anything.
Melee already have a rich variety of choices post epic that they gladly migrate to. Would create a lot of chaos in game to suddenly devalue the vast investments of time many guilds have made to get primal, NTOV and Luclin weapons for their tanks, for instance.
Then there are the thorny issues like how exactly can you improve on the cleric epic? It is already pretty amazing. But if you materially change the effects of some epics but not others chaos would ensue.
There were also rumors about "epic armor" with Luclin which has also not been the case. That might have more potential. One item, unique by class, that is epic in scope and is more about AC than dmg. Say a shield for druids, helm for warriors, etc, etc.
Still not a perfect world. And an awful lot of work. I really think VI will just add great new gear in PoP and make working the way through the planes the way to improve your gear, just as always.
AmaraPeacegiver
07-16-2002, 07:39 PM
The monk epic gives Haste and ATK bonus. If the monk has an enchanter haste buff on him, it takes precedence and the haste effect will not be applied to the monk. However, the ATK buff will still be applied. The monk epic was changed numerous times. At one time, the ATK buff was actually a STR buff. Monks also complained about the monk epic effect not working at all with enchanter haste.. so Verant modified it so that the ATK buff would still go through with Enchanter haste.
Why can't the Druid epic be changed in a similar fashion?
WyteNK
07-16-2002, 08:45 PM
I would be happy with a reduction in cast time.
Wyte Psycnosis <Ordo Malleus>
60 Dooid - Rallos Zek
Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-17-2002, 04:12 AM
The dot damage on it is fine for being manaless.
Take a look at the shaman's manaless epic DoT...they basically get a manaless DoT almost on par with Winged Death. We get a manaless DoT on par with Drones of Doom.
Bern Fizzlesticks
07-17-2002, 04:29 AM
The stats are nice but the effect is worse than free DoTs that come on bracers. It is a crappy effect.
I heard they balanced effect with difficulty and since ours was easy to get we get low level effect but there are other easy Epics that have decent use.
Cassea
07-17-2002, 04:50 AM
I use my epic on almost every solo pull so please let us not give other classes the perception that we only want the world so to speak.
Yes I would love the snare removed and the dot time changed or at least make the snare check separate but even if our epic had no effect at all I would still love it as one of the best items in the game for Druids.
I would love to have an epic with a similar dot as the Shamen.
I'm sure Verant (at the time) thought the snare was a bonus. They are not going to change our epic. We have more important concerns IMHO but if we still want to pursue this epic thing maybe we could get them to make it so that there is a separate snare check (so the dot part will still work on snare resistant mobs) and/or allow ensnare to over write ONLY the snare part of the epic so we could ensnare after we cast the epic to get a longer snare time.
Sometimes we need to read what we are asking from the point of view of another class.
If the shamen have a better epic we have to ask:
Was it harder to obtain?
Does our epic have better stats?
Can the snare portion of the epic actually be considered a good feature? (I like to pull with the epic when I solo as it allows the mob to both be snared and take some damage as I run back to camp)
yadda yadda yadda *smiles*
Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-17-2002, 05:29 AM
I heard they balanced effect with difficulty and since ours was easy to get we get low level effect but there are other easy Epics that have decent use.
I would place the Shaman epic as easier than the Druid epic. At least all the Shaman I know who weren't complete slackers were able to get their Epics long before the Druids I know.
Oldoaktree
07-17-2002, 08:07 AM
Most of the Shaman epic can be done with one group.
FyyrLuStorm
07-17-2002, 08:14 AM
The snare WAS a bonus...
Before they added snare immune mobs, that makes the whole effect bounce.
To me it's kinda like changing the rules in the middle of the game..."Hey I just read here in the rules, that we don't put money on Free Parking, sorry Druids that you just landed there, but all that money has to go back in the bank now".
Tiane
07-17-2002, 02:17 PM
Just remember that the various class epics and the quests were all designed by seperate individuals/teams with little to no standard on difficulty or effectiveness on the final item, or communication between the teams. Hence the wide disparity.
The monk epic also can be done more or less with one good group (and a lot of bleedin camping!) and is pretty much never replaced even by bleeding edge monks. Whereas the warrior epic is a royal PITA and is almost more easily replaceable with alternate weapons like wavecrasher/willsapper/primal/hatebringer, etc.
This is why it's unfair for anyone to compare one epic to another in the ease of attainability vs effectiveness department, because the comparisons were never even made in the design process to begin with.
Hopefully the current balance team at VI is aware of what their predecessors did in this department and will not use it as an excuse for not changing them.
Tia
Umbrae
07-17-2002, 09:53 PM
I never did understand the effect on the druid epic. it is basicaly the same as the necro epic. yet I thought epics were suposed to have powerfull class definning ablities. epic pets for mages, rez for cleric, mana regen for wizzys (with a bit of a damage buffer in their too), life tap for SK's, snare dot for necros, snare dot for druids? . . . umm, is it just me or do you have another snare dot hidden in your spell line up I missed.
Makes no sence. not that the necro snare dot makes much since, the final out of that line is better then our epic all round, does more dmg, cast faster, and cost barly more mana, but at least it is in our line of class defining spells.
perhaps a mana free PotG, or just a dot like WD, but snare dot is just kinda out thier . . .
Stormhaven
07-17-2002, 11:37 PM
As far as the epic goes, I look at it this way - even before the completely "immune to changes in movement rate" mobs, even when I had my epic equiped full time, I still had ensnare mem'd all the time. Ensnare cost pretty much no mana, cast 3x's faster, and lasted 4x's longer.
Honestly, the druid epic needs to have snare dropped, and the length shortened to 1min for 1650. Heck, they could even lower the amount to 1400 if they thought 1650 was too much. I'd still use it 99% more than I do now.
My epic resides in a slot within my backpack. It hasn't quite reached the "banked" status due to the fact that once in a blue moon, my guild actually does go back to exp camping in older "kunarkian" type zones.
Right now my equiped weapon is the Sprinkler from NToV. Yeah, it's got that nifty "noob" mace look, but so does most everything else now days. No big loss, imo.
Kildaere LiSiofra
07-18-2002, 01:19 AM
Epic made me sad.
All that work to be the first in guild to get it.... all that excitement at the last fight.. then the turn in.. I was so happy I was nearly dancing in the chair......
And then I cast the effect. :o
Well hey, at least it's got floaty leaves. I leave damn good looking corpses laying about now.
Cassea
07-18-2002, 03:22 AM
Hmmmm I kinda like the fact that our Epic DOT stacks with all our other dots. I agree about the snare as I have said but when soloing it sure is nice to be able to stack 4-5 dots on top of a mob at the same time.
Look at it from the point of view of Verant:
They do not want to make Druids more powerful soloers.
If they remove the snare or make the dot faster they do not improve our raid abilities (one one druid could still us it and most mobs die too quick even for a 50 sec dot) but rather our solo abilities.
Makeing the snare/dot resistance checks separate for snare resistant mobs would be all IMHO Verant MIGHT look at.
Sure I would LOVE a 50 second 1600 dam dot epic without the snare (or even with the snare LOL) but I would also like a 50 sec 10k dot *smiles* but it's not gonna happen :)
Warrhead
07-18-2002, 05:43 AM
I would like to see a few more weapons that are better than epics. Everyone in the high end game carrying the same weapon is pretty tedious if you ask me. What was the point in us learning 1hb and 2hb.
I think we are long overdue for Epics to start becoming obsolete like just about every other item that came out earlier in the game. I don't therefore see the point in upgrading any epics. The game has moved on. Time for the next thing.
Hopefully PoP might address this.
Stormhaven
07-18-2002, 06:04 AM
Cassea - your point about VI and soloing is a bit flawed beacause the epic currently brings nothing to a raid situation anyhow, so all it is really used for is when soloing.
Grizlor
07-18-2002, 08:42 AM
The shaman epic also checks against magic resist.
IIRC, the druid epic is 1600ish damage. the fact that it does it slowly, makes it balanced for having higher damage
the shaman epic, while less likely resisted...is a SPLURT type dot... this means, on critters that die in 30 seconds, it's not even worth it to cast the epic, I can just hit my JBB and do more damage... the effect works in this manner:
Tick 1 - zero damage.. doesn't break mez till tick 2.
Tick 2 -12 damage
Tick 3 - 24 damage
Tick 4 - 36 damage
... and so on, totalling about 1206 damage. So in the first third of the epic's effect, it's barely dealing 100 points. You have to WAIT the ENTIRE DURATION to actually get some decent average dps out of the effect.
Now if you make the druid epic pure damage, it would make it much harder to resist, similar to our epic effect. please... consider the following:
Bane of Nife
Shm (56)
425 mana
Adding 10 poison counters.
Decrease hit points by 150
DoT for 1498 hit points in 42 seconds
Pox of Bertoxxules
Shm (59)
430 mana
Adding 10 disease counters
Decrease hitpoints by 90
DoT for 1998 hitpoints in 1 minute 48 seconds
Ancient: Scourge of Nife
Oops this spell does not exist!
Hello? Is anyone home? if you reduce it to one minute, not only are you trying to rationalize changing your epic effect to quite a decent DoT (better than your "winged death" by far)...but it's almost unresistable... I'm not sure if you guys are aware, but the same aggravation you have with the dual nature of your epic.... is on every single castable dot in the shaman's arsenal, other than the epic effect. in order to land, it makes both a DD check AND a DoT check, both against the same resistance... mobs typically have lower PR/DR which offsets this, but we exchange superior dots with needing to usually debuff resists first.
Lastly, we pay a hefty price that comes with nice poison/disease dots, and that's that they agro like holy hell... Bane of nife easily peeled mobs off an epic ranger I regularly duo with who had a good head start on agro.
If you wanted to make your effect be, say, 1000 damage, in 1 minute and 18 seconds or something similar, that's fine. but 1600 is just ridiculous.
FyyrLuStorm
07-18-2002, 09:52 AM
Did I mention that the Lumi Staff does way more damage than the epic? ;)
Stormhaven
07-18-2002, 10:16 AM
Grizlor said: the shaman epic, while less likely resisted...is a SPLURT type dot...
While it may be a splurt type dot, your dmg is also finished within one minute. Ours is currently 1650 over 3 minutes, making it a 550 dot for all intents and purposes. According to your statement, your problem with the splurt type dot seems to be that the mobs will not live long enough for the dot to be finished. Well, the druid dot takes a longer amount of time to do it's full damage, so the same argument can be used for our epic. Assuming a mob only lives one minute, the shaman epic has completed it's 1200 points of damage - the druid one, on the other hand, has done 550.
(snip)...we exchange superior dots with needing to usually debuff resists first.
For sheer damage over time, the druid dots are very hard to beat. You're saying that a 1000pt dot will not change the game, but a 1600pt dot will. Well considering that Winged Death is already a 1200pt dot, I really can't see that extra 400 unbalancing the whole thing. Even pre-Luclin, various Kunark mobs had around 10khp (giants and wurms in BW come to mind). 400 extra points even then would not be a big deal. Plus, the fact that the epic dot will overwrite itself will ensure that it's not a major dps factor on raids versus large mobs.
As far as resists go, shamans were given the tools to lower the resists of mobs in order for their slows and dots to take hold. Druids only have one resist debuff, and that's fire. Our epic and best spell dot are magic based. Now, if we were fighting an animal, yes, we could magic debuff it... but what's the likelyhood of fighting an animal?
Kalinn
07-18-2002, 02:51 PM
shaman epic and shaman spells have little to do with the druid epic and its effect.
the point being made here is that there are GREEN MOBS that are immune to an EPIC. immune, as in no amount of debuffing or recasting matters one damned bit. with shaman spells/epic you can debuff or recast if it doesnt land. with druid epic, you just cant use it.
how about we make some mobs immune to shaman epic, make certain mobs immune to ranger epic swords, or maybe if a certain mob kills you, you cant get a click stick rez.
oh, and changing it to even a minute dot without the snare is not all that different than what we already have. including dot bonuses, scim is 1770 damage, winged death is 1560. quite an acceptable difference if you consider one is a store bought lvl 53 spell and the other is an epic effect.
Cassea
07-20-2002, 04:31 AM
What I meant was that Verant does not want to improve our soloing abilities at this point.
Yes the dot/snare portion of our epic is used mostly for soloing (I use it to pull in single groups) but they do not want to improve this.
I would also say that the stats on the epic make it an excellent raid weapon. Maybe we do not use the dot/snare but I would venture to guess that most druids do not have an item fo rtheir weapon slot that has better stats than the epic. Some yes, most no.
Please tell me what is obtainable that a Druid could possible swap out their epic for? The Druid epic has some of the best stats class-wise in the entire game. For sure not "the" best but pretty sweet.There are lots of options for replacing the epic. I use the Sprinkler of the Spirits most of the time, since it has more resists, HP and AC.
Also for mele combat, these are better than the epic, and I keep them in a tink bag for special occasions:
Sporecaller 2hb 40/30 ... also a nice clickable dot (WITHOUT SNARE) that stacks with everything
Rightousness 1hb 20/22 100dd-proc ...
Primal 2hb 33/35ish avatar-proc ... (also 1hb, but I'm assuming you'd defer that to other meles in need of primal)
I also keep my epic in a bag, of course, but only use it on very rare occasions.
Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-22-2002, 06:38 AM
What I meant was that Verant does not want to improve our soloing abilities at this point.
Of course not..if we could solo as well as shaman or monks or even rangers again...the sky might fall.
Bikkun Wolfen
07-23-2002, 02:13 AM
I agree that the snare effect should go and just give us the dot portion and tune that so that iit is more in line with an Epic weapon like make the DoT a lure based DoT that will hit every time, I do not care if they do not cut the time down from 3 min just make it unresistable :)
AmaraPeacegiver
07-23-2002, 04:20 AM
I was on a ToV raid with a mage friend of mine recently and I asked him why he didn't use his Epic pet and he said it was because the resists on his Epic pet were rather poor in comparision to his Fire pet that he had summoned. With the changes to pets made on the test server, this essentially upgrades the mage epic by a tremendous amount.
If they can change the mage epic pet at this stage of the game by boosting it's resists, why can't they change the druid epic and make it more effective?
Xitix
07-26-2002, 02:02 AM
Fixing pets was a general fix not a specific one. You should be asking for a general fix for how multi effect debuffs and mob immunities work. Ask for code that lets spells land if the mob isn't immune to all effects of the spell but negates the effects it's immune to. They did it for DDs with a stun component because so many mobs were immune to stun. They should do it for DoTs with a snare component because so many mobs are immune to snare. Druid/SK/Necro all have a problem with DoTs with snare components just as Paladins/Clerics/Enchanters had with DD"s with stun components.
L1ndara
07-26-2002, 03:03 AM
Well... my opinion has changes somewhat with the DOT changes removing the damage reduction for moving mobs. Suddenly we don't care if mobs are moving so much so the snare actually matters, why, well our options for long term snare is:
10 minutes 52% ensnare
2 minutes 55% snare
1.8 minutes 65% bonds of tunare (5 target)
The epic is:
3 minutes 62% wrath of nature (can't overwrite BoT)
So you only need to run 4 seconds to get the same time before the mob reachs you with epic as you would under ensnare and running 5 seconds.
The big bringdown for Nature's Wrath I think is cast time, which I don't think should or could be made shorter. It makes it unweildy and coupled with high resist it makes the epic useless even on mobs that live an entire minute. I don't care so much that there are lots of mobs immune but I do care that it's completely useless for groups and it's high resist makes it pretty sucky, often taking 30 or 40 seconds to land it on anything level 55 or higher unless maloed/tashed.
It would be nice if the epic snare was lure so it wasn't resisted all the time, or if it had a DD on it like shaman DOTs so it isn't completely useless for groups, 250 to 300pts for instance. Removing the snare altogether is reasonable and I don't see why VI wouldn't do it if we wanted it, but it does leave a hole in our ability to snare. The extra snare given by epic is really noticable particularly if you're using blindness on mobs, ensnared mobs may often get out of range before your moonfire/wildfire lands but won't with epic on them.
Before the damage reduction removal combining snare with a DOT like that is really kinda dumb, you would definetly want the mob rooted taking 112% instead of 70% damage, but without that penalty you don't care so much if the mob moves, in fact you might even want it to if you're snare kiting.
Oldoaktree
07-26-2002, 08:17 AM
Adding a nuke to our epic would make it a triple check and so even more resisted. Or are you thinking the nuke would replace the snare?
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