Pardon Libby?

WASHINGTON: President George W. Bush has pardoned 113 people during his presidency, including a Tennessee bootlegger and a Mississippi odometer scammer. Suffice to say, none has drawn the same public scrutiny, nor posed the same political challenge, as the candidate in line for Bush presidential pardon No. 114: I. Lewis Libby Jr., the former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney who was convicted of lying to investigators in the CIA leak case and sentenced Tuesday to 30 months in prison.

To pardon Libby would attract more painful attention to a case from which Bush had managed to keep his distance for three years, a case inextricably linked to the flawed intelligence used to justify the Iraq war and an administration effort to discredit a critic that ultimately exposed a CIA agent. The Democrats who control Congress would be none too pleased, either.

A decision not to pardon Libby would further alienate members of Bush's traditional base of support in the conservative movement, a group already angry about his proposed immigration policy, his administration's spending and his approach to Iran. So far, Bush seems to be willing to take that chance.
More here (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/06/news/leak.php)

I don't think he will. I think President Bush will use him as a fall guy, as he had been doing already.

Ok, my bet is he will pardon Libby. He's proved to be unfailingly loyal to the scum he appoints. :p Besides, Darth Cheney will probably threaten him with death by psychic strangulation if he doesn't.

If he pardons Libby it really does make a mockery of the justicial system. Just how much money was spent on that investigation?

Well maybe if he doesn't get pardoned, he can be in jail for a couple of days but get out for a rare medical condition and spend the rest of his sentence in his house?

Seriously though, for the "crime" he was convicted of, his sentence is a bit out of whack. Look at those convicted during Watergate, the most they got was 18 months. 30 months for his part in the whole mockery of the CIA scandal does seem a bit harsh.

The judge was trying to make a point that high administration officials have a duty to tell the truth in the courtroom when they're under oath. Something I think Gonzales might want to try doing sometime.

Maybe the Watergate guys got off too easy?

Come on everyone, make your predictions! At the end of 2008 we'll come back to this and see who was right and who was dead. Oops... I was channeling Wesley there for a moment.

He should pardon libby.

America shouldn't hound him for pardoning libby.

Its not like the man was convicted of selling state secrets.

What's the ****ing point of being president if you can't pardon an ally of a minor crime.

Its not like the man was convicted of selling state secrets.

What's the ****ing point of being president if you can't pardon an ally of a minor crime.

Look at it again. Libby and the President took the US public for fools by leaking information in back room conversations to the press as a smear campaign. They then lied to the press, i.e. the US public, repeatedly. They then lied to investigators acting as agents for the US public, repeatedly, until they couldn't lie any longer. They went back on promises to sack the lieing toerags. They are taking you, the US public, for complete fools if they then pardon their own dirty tricks merchants.

A lot of people complain about dirty politics on these boards. Scooter Libby is dirty politics. Keep him in jail. It's damn hard to catch these guys out and those you do catch shouldn't be let go.

Look at it again. Libby and the President took the US public for fools by leaking information in back room conversations to the press as a smear campaign. They then lied to the press, i.e. the US public, repeatedly. They then lied to investigators acting as agents for the US public, repeatedly, until they couldn't lie any longer. They went back on promises to sack the lieing toerags. They are taking you, the US public, for complete fools if they then pardon their own dirty tricks merchants.

A lot of people complain about dirty politics on these boards. Scooter Libby is dirty politics. Keep him in jail. It's damn hard to catch these guys out and those you do catch shouldn't be let go.

Libby is just the fall guy.

He should be pardoned.

Bush, on the other hand, should be impeached and convicted.

I agree Libby is the fall guy. That was too easy to see. I alse think that he will be pardoned. I am not saying he SHOULD be, only that he most likeyl WILL be.

Looks like he's headed to the slammer. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6753365.stm

I guess he will, after all.

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jul02/0,4670,CIALeakTrial,00.html<b>Bush Spares Libby From Prison</b>

WASHINGTON — President Bush spared former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby from a 2 1/2-year prison term on Monday, issuing an order that commutes his sentence.

This is a breaking news update. Check back soon for further information.

It was half a pardon. His sentence was commuted but the other stuff stands.

It was half a pardon. His sentence was commuted but the other stuff stands.

You really have to begin to wonder if Bush wants the Republicans to lose the next election...


Eri

You really have to begin to wonder if Bush wants the Republicans to lose the next election

Well he just thinks the public are fools, doesn't he? As long he keeps his oh so clever oil buddies happy he's done a heckuva job.

You really have to begin to wonder if Bush wants the Republicans to lose the next election...
Eri
The problem is, Republicans don't care. It just outrages the democrats.

G.W. Bush February 10, 2004: "If there's a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. If the person has violated law, that person will be taken care of."
I understand this quote a bit better now. When Bush said "taken care of" he actually meant it.

LOL! Good point, Klath. Very, very good point.

Glass houses and all that....

Just for perspective: Clinton pardoned 140 and granted 36 clemency durring his tenure. Some of his choices included:


* Carlos A. Vignali had his sentence for cocaine trafficking commuted, after serving 6 of 15 years in federal prison.
* Almon Glenn Braswell was pardoned of his mail fraud and perjury convictions, even while a federal investigation was underway regarding additional money laundering and tax evasion charges.[12] Braswell and Carlos Vignali each paid approximately $200,000 to Hillary Clinton’s brother, Hugh Rodham, to represent their respective cases for clemency. Hugh Rodham returned the payments after they were disclosed to the public.[citation needed] Braswell would later invoke the Fifth Amendment at a Senate Committee hearing in 2001, when questioned about allegations of his having systematically defrauded senior citizens of millions of dollars.[13]
* Marc Rich, a fugitive, was pardoned of tax evasion, after clemency pleas from Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, among many other international luminaries. Denise Rich, Marc’s former wife, was a close friend of the Clintons and had made substantial donations to both Clinton’s library and Hillary’s Senate campaign. According to Paul Volcker’s independent investigation of Iraqi Oil-for-Food kickback schemes, Marc Rich was a middleman for several suspect Iraqi oil deals involving over 4 million barrels of oil.[14]
* Susan McDougal, who had already completed her sentence, was pardoned for her role in the Whitewater scandal; McDougal had served 18 months on contempt charges for refusing to testify about Clinton’s role.
* Dan Rostenkowski, a former Democratic Congressman convicted in the Congressional Post Office Scandal. Rostenkowski had served his entire sentence.
* Melvin J. Reynolds, a Democratic Congressman from Illinois, who was convicted of bank fraud, 12 counts of sexual assault, obstruction of justice, and solicitation of child ****ography had his sentence commuted on the bank fraud charged and was allowed to serve the final months under the auspices of a half way house. He had served his entire sentence on child sex abuse charges before the commutation of the later convictions.
* Roger Clinton, the president’s half-brother, on drug charges after having served the entire sentence more than a decade before. Roger Clinton would be charged with drunk driving and disorderly conduct in an unrelated incident within a year of the pardon.[15] He was also briefly alleged to have been utilized in lobbying for the Braswell pardon, among others.

How many posters would like to see presidential pardons discontinued? It seems like an excuse to make one law for the political class and another law for everyone else.

How many posters would like to see presidential pardons discontinued?I wouldn't. It's a counterbalance to legislative/judicial power, albeit a small one.

Without a president/governor's ability to pardon, the legislature and judicial branches could simply put away any politician they didn't like.

Without a president/governor's ability to pardon, the legislature and judicial branches could simply put away any politician they didn't like.

How is that worse than a President letting loose any crook they like, given the judicial process uses a jury and has an appeals process?

I heard yesterday that Nixon could have pardoned himself and then resigned.
How many posters would like to see presidential pardons discontinued? It seems like an excuse to make one law for the political class and another law for everyone else.
I would, or else have it restricted by quite a lot.

As far as the Clinton pardons... well, two wrongs don't make a right. It was wrong when he did it, it was wrong now. It just seems to me this ability gets misused more often than used reasonably.

There's one case where I feel it was used well, that was when the Governor of New Jersey basically commuted the death sentence for all the inmates on death row, due to having so many people found innocent by, I think, the Innocence Project.

How is that worse than a President letting loose any crook they like, given the judicial process uses a jury and has an appeals process?

The politic price to pay. If a judge send someone in jail, it will hard to track the actions of every judges. It is a lot easier to follow the action of 50 gouvernors and 1 president for the pardon.

Who want to get a good place in History? Judges or polititians?

When the pardon thing is overdue, the polititians (or members of his party) will have harder time to get re-elected.

But the 2 thing can be abused, the pardon thing a little more easier to be abused, but generaly it also do a little less dommage to the society (can you imagine a cabal of extremist christians judges deciding to clean the politic class to their view?). And a lot easier to pin on someone.

Also as the pardon is a very public thing; can you imagine what will be the reputation of someone that is pardonned because he is a buddy of a president that is looking as one of the worse one of the US history?

Eridalafar

When the pardon thing is overdue, the polititians (or members of his party) will have harder time to get re-elected.
Yeah, that's why they wait until they can't be re-elected to abuse it. :p

Glass houses and all that....

Just for perspective: Clinton pardoned 140 and granted 36 clemency durring his tenure. Some of his choices included:

It probably means very little, but it does seem to me that most of the people that were pardoned by Clinton, on that list at least, had already served their entire sentence, or were not pardoned for the more serious crimes.
Unless of course those terms mean something different from what I think they do?



* Carlos A. Vignali had his sentence for cocaine trafficking commuted, after serving 6 of 15 years in federal prison.
* Almon Glenn Braswell was pardoned of his mail fraud and perjury convictions
* Marc Rich, after clemency pleas from Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, among many other international luminaries.
* Susan McDougal, who had already completed her sentence
* Dan Rostenkowski, had served his entire sentence.
* Melvin J. Reynolds, had served his entire sentence on child sex abuse charges before the commutation of the later convictions.
* Roger Clinton, having served the entire sentence more than a decade before.


So, unless I misunderstand entirley. One person was pardoned shortly before becoming eligible for early release, one was outright pardoned. One had many international supports asking for his pardon, including the prime minister of an allied country. The rest of this short list already had served their entire sentence.
Please do not misunderstand, I do not think that Clinton should have pardoned most of these people, but I do have the strong impression that this particular list was assembled by somebody who wanted to make Clinton look bad in such a way as to make him appear as corrupt as possible.


Eri

How is that worse than a President letting loose any crook they like, given the judicial process uses a jury and has an appeals process?Presidents can be impeached, and need to be re-elected frequently. Also, their decisions are highly publicized and one man bears all the responsibility.

Presidents can be impeached, and need to be re-elected frequently. Also, their decisions are highly publicized and one man bears all the responsibility.

I doubt that anyone will change their vote based on Bush pardoning his duplicitous spin doctor. It just adds to the general disillusionment with the political process, which might tempt people not to vote at all.

I doubt that anyone will change their vote based on Bush pardoning his duplicitous spin doctor.Because they probably don't care either way. I certainly don't.

However, if the president abuses the power, or pardons highly unpopular individuals, it could hurt him politically.

What's it matter if he's not running for office again?

What's it matter if he's not running for office again?It reflects badly on their party.

It reflects badly on their party.

Since when has Bush cared about what his actions do for his parties reputation?

It probably means very little, but it does seem to me that most of the people that were pardoned by Clinton, on that list at least, had already served their entire sentence, or were not pardoned for the more serious crimes.
Unless of course those terms mean something different from what I think they do?




So, unless I misunderstand entirley. One person was pardoned shortly before becoming eligible for early release, one was outright pardoned. One had many international supports asking for his pardon, including the prime minister of an allied country. The rest of this short list already had served their entire sentence.
Please do not misunderstand, I do not think that Clinton should have pardoned most of these people, but I do have the strong impression that this particular list was assembled by somebody who wanted to make Clinton look bad in such a way as to make him appear as corrupt as possible.


Eri

And in this case, the prison sentence was commuted but everything else stands. A guy that many feel was just a fall guy (not my words) is spared from 30 months in minimum security prison. Hardly any worse than this one:

Almon Glenn Braswell was pardoned of his mail fraud and perjury convictions, even while a federal investigation was underway regarding additional money laundering and tax evasion charges.[12] Braswell and Carlos Vignali each paid approximately $200,000 to Hillary Clinton’s brother, Hugh Rodham, to represent their respective cases for clemency. Hugh Rodham returned the payments after they were disclosed to the public.[citation needed] Braswell would later invoke the Fifth Amendment at a Senate Committee hearing in 2001, when questioned about allegations of his having systematically defrauded senior citizens of millions of dollars.[13]


So, as I said, glass houses and such. It continually amazes me how people love to point out things about the republican party while at the same time downplaying or completely turning a blind eye on the democrats for doing the same stuff. This crap isn't something just one party is doing but is endemic of the entire political system.

How many posters would like to see presidential pardons discontinued? It seems like an excuse to make one law for the political class and another law for everyone else.

No. Just as Courts of Equity provide for the old chancery appeals (appealing to the King's Chancellor) for various reasons in civil law, so to does there need to be the ability for a convict to appeal to the "King" as it were (in this case the Governor or President).

Sometimes the justice system breaks down and someone who doesn't belong in prison ends up there (A good example being that kid in Georgia...the law he was convicted over was atrocious, and changed, but the courts feel that their hands are tied by the law as it was at the time, he's a prime candidate for a Gubernatorial pardon, in my opinion, and if I were the governor of Georgia, I would so grant one, if the Governor of Georgia has that power).

Sometimes circumstance may change such that a greater good is granting clemency for someone convicted of a crime, rather than forcing them to serve their entire sentence (Father is in prison for a relatively minor or non-violent crime...his wife dies while he's in and there is no other family for their children to stay with and the guy's been a model prisoner, but isn't yet eligble for parole. I would submit that a greater good is done by granting him clemency and allowing him to care for his children, than by keeping him in prison and feeding two more children into the foster care system).

Above Tea cut and pasted a list of seven questionable commutations or pardons by President Clinton. He granted 140 pardons during his tenure and granted clemency to almost 40 people. If seven of them were objectionable...that still leaves well over a hundred people. It would be a far greater injustice to remove this final appeal for pardon or reprieve from those with a clearly legitimate claim, merely to stop the President from using a few pardons for political or personal reasons.