View Full Forums : Are all druids red headed step Children?


wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 11:49 AM
Is it just my perception or are druids treated like an unwanted class in EQ?
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Is there anything a druid can do best?
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Nuke?
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Nope, Mages, Wizards, and Necros have us beat in that department.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Heal?
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Nope There is always the cleric who has everyone flat busted in that one.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Buffs?
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
HP buffs à Cleric
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Stat Buffs à Shammy
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Mana Buffs à Enchanter
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Damage shield à Mages are at least our equal if not our better.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
How about run speed buffs? Nope even a ranger is our equal in that.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
OK so lets give up on spells because ours are at best equal and in most cases far inferior.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Combat?
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
I know we must be best at running away.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Nope a wizzy is our equal in that.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
And now I see the new spell lists in development and start looking and what do I see? The gaps are getting larger yet.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
The Wizzy has a DD spell that does over 10K without a crit… OMG Our best DOT only does 7200 max and a Wizzy can cast his spell twice in that time.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
We aren’t even the best Kiters, Rangers can kite better than us. All they have to do is snare and arrow to death. And they can deal with 10 or 15 red mobs at a time. I’ve seen it done. Several times. If we Kite and run out of mana all we can do is throw rocks until snare wears off and then run.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
I love my druid and He is a well respected officer in his guild and is requested in groups because I never panic, and I can back up just about anybody at need, but that is all I am a back up. Never the hero always the sidekick.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
SOE we need an upgrade to become an equal class not more hand me downs and afterthoughts, at least make some items with decent AC bonuses on them so we don’t fall over every time a red mob looks at us. The cleric in the party can take more punishment than we can because they get to wear metal armor and we are stuck with leather.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
lvl because it has to be toned down so much compared to the others to allow us to complete it. Yes I soloed it from one end to the other. Look at your tracking in the zones we have to go to for our 1.0, most of the mobs are gray to us at 55 If you think this is just a rant or bad day thing think about this Druid epic 1.0 I soloed it at 60thth.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
It is sad to think that Sony thinks so little of the great and noble Druid, we are the protectors of the woodlands, the friends and kin of the animals, and the red headed step children of EQ…

Fenier
08-29-2007, 11:59 AM
Is there anything a druid can do best?

We actually can move faster then any other class (baring items) due to our ability to Teleport and Cast movement rate increasing buffs.

We are hands down the best at debuffing Attack and AC.
Buffs?
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Damage shield ŗ Mages are at least our equal if not our better.

We beat our mages for Damage Shields.
Fernspur > *Skin Line
Thier Single > Our Single
We also however have DSs on:
Coat buffs
CoS AA Line
SotW AA Line
WotW AA Line
and as a recourse for Hungry Vines.

All our Damage Shields stack with the exception of CoS and SotW.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
How about run speed buffs? Nope even a ranger is our equal in that.

Incorrect. Form of the Hunter is 77% outdoor only. Flight of Eagles is 65%. Spirit of Eagle, the Ranger's best movement buff is 60%
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--> <!--[endif]-->
And now I see the new spell lists in development and start looking and what do I see? The gaps are getting larger yet.


Which tells me you do not quite understand what Alpha means. It means untuned. It means untested. It means highly subject to extensive change.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->SOE we need an upgrade to become an equal class not more hand me downs and afterthoughts, at least make some items with decent AC bonuses on them so we donít fall over every time a red mob looks at us.The cleric in the party can take more punishment than we can because they get to wear metal armor and we are stuck with leather.

Actually it's because of the innate mitigation differiance & difference in overcap returns on that AC value. They could give us Plate level AC and you wouldn't see a huge difference because our overcap returns are the worst of any class except silk casters.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 12:50 PM
We actually can move faster then any other class (baring items) due to our ability to Teleport and Cast movement rate increasing buffs.

Actually wizzys can port to more places...

We are hands down the best at debuffing Attack and AC.
Buffs?
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Maybe I haven't looked into weather we are the best at it or not but have noted this has very minimal effect on combat at best. Try this, /log one of your combat sessions and then go back and look at mobs debuffed verses mobs not debuffed. You will see that on average the mobs die 1 to 2 ticks faster. That is a whole lot of mana on creatures for very little DPS return. We would be better off hitting them with our weapons wish gives an average of 3 to 4 ticks faster with a good weapon.

We beat our mages for Damage Shields.
Fernspur > *Skin Line
Thier Single > Our Single
We also however have DSs on:
Coat buffs
CoS AA Line
SotW AA Line
WotW AA Line
and as a recourse for Hungry Vines.

All our Damage Shields stack with the exception of CoS and SotW.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
So we are best at getting beat on for DPS...
That makes me feel so much better. Thanx.
Aren't these DS AAs self only I know the coat series is.

Furnspur RK III 499 per hit http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=11768
Scortching Skin RK III 549 per hit http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=10722

How exactly is this better because furnspur last 1 tick longer and look at the mana cost. 800 for Furnspur vr 390 for Scortching Skin.

Then go to the top singles ours 72 per hit for 15 minutes.
Theirs 81 per hit for 15 minutes.

again how exactly is this better? and to add insult to injury ours is 72nd level theirs is 71st.


Incorrect. Form of the Hunter is 77% outdoor only. Flight of Eagles is 65%. Spirit of Eagle, the Ranger's best movement buff is 60%

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]-->The fastest horse still beats those speeds but point is valid I can see why an extra 5% run speed would make you want a druid in the party instead of a ranger.<!--[endif]-->


Which tells me you do not quite understand what Alpha means. It means untuned. It means untested. It means highly subject to extensive change.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->Yes I understand what alfa means I am not an idiot, but if this is their consept for beta test than we are truly going to be hurting after the next expansion. These upgrades are far short of what is needed to put druids back into the game. A sinple fix would be give us a one spell all resists buff for 75 points each... It would be a buff people would want because it only takes 1 slot instead of the four we need now. Or make or net damage shield last for 30 minutes as... Or an invis that doesn't drop off if you walk within 200 feet of a zone...

Actually it's because of the innate mitigation differiance & difference in overcap returns on that AC value. They could give us Plate level AC and you wouldn't see a huge difference because our overcap returns are the worst of any class except silk casters.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

So now you tell me that not only does the armor available to me have less AC bonus but I also am inefective at using it? That really helps...

serinity_inny
08-29-2007, 12:58 PM
you might not be an idiot but you sure need to learn how to spell to be taken serious.

and coat series is not an AA and know our DS AA can be applies to anyone.

Our AA invis is fixed for 30minutes you might want to consider purchasing that since most people LOVE IT. 17 aa's is almost the best aa's I ever spent sure gets used the most (5 for self 12 for group)

If you would have read the parses you would know the effect Debuffs have on raid mobs (and in tough group exp mobs Hand of Ro helps alot).

I agree we need some help but all that if
support whatever you did really hurts the eyes and will never get any attention.

Fenier
08-29-2007, 01:11 PM
Actually wizzys can port to more places...

It's the combonation of movement and teleporting. Not just one half of it.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->Maybe I haven't looked into weather we are the best at it or not but have noted this has very minimal effect on combat at best. Try this, /log one of your combat sessions and then go back and look at mobs debuffed verses mobs not debuffed. You will see that on average the mobs die 1 to 2 ticks faster. That is a whole lot of mana on creatures for very little DPS return. We would be better off hitting them with our weapons wish gives an average of 3 to 4 ticks faster with a good weapon.

Underlined the important part of your paragraph. Your looking at the entire situation incorrect. AC debuffing scales verus every melee hitting the mob. Rashere has posted that mob AC levels have stagnated, but this is something he plans to correct with SoF.

As for the Attack debuffing portion I personally have done fairly extensive parsing located at the following links:

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13652&highlight=attack+debuff
as well as:
http://thedruidsgrove.org/eq/forums/showpost.php?p=189142&postcount=13
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
Aren't these DS AAs self only I know the coat series is.

Spirit of the Wood
Legacy / Shield of X
Convergance of Spirits
Hungry Vines Recourse
Fernspur

All are either group or single target. The only self only DS we have is our Coat Spellline.

Furnspur RK III 499 per hit http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=11768
Scortching Skin RK III 549 per hit http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=10722

How exactly is this better because furnspur last 1 tick longer and look at the mana cost. 800 for Furnspur vr 390 for Scortching Skin.

Due to the fact you can't count.

Fernspur is 499 x 8 hits. That means it deals 3992 Damage at minimum assuming all 8 hits land. It also has a 10% chance to proc Wild Fernspurs which equals 8 hits of 998, or a total of 7984 unresistable damage. In addition to this the buff is extended by SCRM AA and is instant cast.

Mage Skin DS is a max of 4 hits, giving them a Total of 2196. This makes Fernspur 45% more powerful at the cost of twice as many hits to deal the damage. On a Wild Fernspur Proc this makes Fernspur 68% more powerful.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 01:24 PM
you might not be an idiot but you sure need to learn how to spell to be taken serious.

and coat series is not an AA and know our DS AA can be applies to anyone.

I never said the coat series was an AA I guess you need to learn to read before you can be taken seriously and by the way insulting someone is not the best way to prove a point.

Our AA invis is fixed for 30minutes you might want to consider purchasing that since most people LOVE IT. 17 aa's is almost the best aa's I ever spent sure gets used the most (5 for self 12 for group)

Odd last time I checked just about every if not every class could get invisibility AA, I know for a fact rangers can get the group one, so again how does this make us best in this?

If you would have read the parses you would know the effect Debuffs have on raid mobs (and in tough group exp mobs Hand of Ro helps alot).

I have read the parses but I did something even more valuable I did actual experiments. Have you done this or are you just repeating what you have heard?

When a mob has an AC of 2.5K lowering it by 15 doesn't mean anything, and decreasing attack on a mob that has an attack of 2K is pretty meaningless. But lets decrease a mobs fire resist by 72 lets see that will bring him down to what 500 instead of 572. Did you even read the stats on the raid mobs before you went on the raid? Most raid mobs have HPs in the 100s of K, by casting this spell you have increased everyone damage output by about 2% on average. That means over the entire combat the mob takes an extra 2000 hp of damage. For a mana cost of 165 if you only have to cast it once in that time. If the Combat lasts only 100 ticks that is a DPS of 3.6 points per second. Congrats a warrior with a toothpick has that beat.



I agree we need some help but all that if
support whatever you did really hurts the eyes and will never get any attention.

Huh?!?

What exactly does this sentence mean?

Fenier
08-29-2007, 01:32 PM
Odd last time I checked just about every if not every class could get invisibility AA, I know for a fact rangers can get the group one, so again how does this make us best in this?

Rangers do not get SCRM.

I have read the parses but I did something even more valuable I did actual experiments. Have you done this or are you just repeating what you have heard?

When a mob has an AC of 2.5K lowering it by 15 doesn't mean anything, and decreasing attack on a mob that has an attack of 2K is pretty meaningless. But lets decrease a mobs fire resist by 72 lets see that will bring him down to what 500 instead of 572. Did you even read the stats on the raid mobs before you went on the raid? Most raid mobs have HPs in the 100s of K, by casting this spell you have increased everyone damage output by about 2% on average. That means over the entire combat the mob takes an extra 2000 hp of damage. For a mana cost of 165 if you only have to cast it once in that time. If the Combat lasts only 100 ticks that is a DPS of 3.6 points per second.

If your only lowering a mobs AC by 15 then your doing somethng wrong.
Loweing the attack of a mob (any mob) with a moderate DI value has significant impact in adjusting the average DI value to a lower interger and drastically decreases the chance of DI 20 rounds. This holds true for 98% of content out there barring exceptions like Delvin in Dagger form and a few mobs from Gates of Discord. If you have parses which disprove all the parsing I have done, as well as all the parsing the warriors on TSW have done since my intial research, I invite you to share it.

As far as AC being lowered it's multiplicative. It's not just X% increase per person, it's a variable increase realtive to the attack of the player and mAC value of the mob in question which determines the resultant DPS increase.

Finally if a Mob has a Resist value is 575, plus the difference in resist formula from level difference you are not likely to be landing a -200 Fire spell anyway, and should be using cold.

-Fenier

Palarran
08-29-2007, 01:57 PM
Bow kiting is slow. Archery damage is cut in half on moving or rooted mobs, if I remember right.

In any case, it seems there's a general shortage of healing in the game, and as one of only three classes that can call healing a primary role, good druids are in high demand--sometimes even as the "hero" (sole healer). No, we can't do it as well as a cleric can, but we do it well enough for most purposes.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 02:12 PM
It's the combonation of movement and teleporting. Not just one half of it.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

Underlined the important part of your paragraph. Your looking at the entire situation incorrect. AC debuffing scales verus every melee hitting the mob. Rashere has posted that mob AC levels have stagnated, but this is something he plans to correct with SoF.

As for the Attack debuffing portion I personally have done fairly extensive parsing located at the following links:

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13652&highlight=attack+debuff
as well as:
http://thedruidsgrove.org/eq/forums/showpost.php?p=189142&postcount=13
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

Thank you that is actually helpful I can see the effect is opposite of what I searched for. It is in the damage output of the creature not its intake.

Spirit of the Wood
Legacy / Shield of X
Convergance of Spirits
Hungry Vines Recourse
Fernspur

All are either group or single target. The only self only DS we have is our Coat Spellline.

I still don't think we should have to use AA's to become useful as a class. My point is still valid Druids need to be upgraded not left in the dust once again.

Due to the fact you can't count.

Fernspur is 499 x 8 hits. That means it deals 3992 Damage at minimum assuming all 8 hits land. It also has a 10% chance to proc Wild Fernspurs which equals 8 hits of 998, or a total of 7984 unresistable damage. In addition to this the buff is extended by SCRM AA and is instant cast.

Mage Skin DS is a max of 4 hits, giving them a Total of 2196. This makes Fernspur 45% more powerful at the cost of twice as many hits to deal the damage. On a Wild Fernspur Proc this makes Fernspur 68% more powerful.

Again I iterate that insulting someone is not the best way to teach.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 02:14 PM
Bow kiting is slow. Archery damage is cut in half on moving or rooted mobs, if I remember right.

In any case, it seems there's a general shortage of healing in the game, and as one of only three classes that can call healing a primary role, good druids are in high demand--sometimes even as the "hero" (sole healer). No, we can't do it as well as a cleric can, but we do it well enough for most purposes.

What server do you play on? There is no shortage of clerics on the one I am on. Every one and their brother has a cleric alt.

Fenier
08-29-2007, 02:14 PM
Again I iterate that insulting someone is not the best way to teach.

Nor is presenting flawed agruements when attempting to prove a position.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 02:29 PM
Nor is presenting flawed agruements when attempting to prove a position.

I am the one trying to learn you are trying to teach me the error in my logic, If my college teachers had insulted me in class the way the people here seem to want to do I probably would have found another college.

Please treat me as an adult and I will do the same for you that is all I ask.

Fenier
08-29-2007, 02:43 PM
You may find better luck with poster replies (I can only speak for myself) if you research data prior to attempting to illusitrate a weakness by comparison, and present that data in a contructive argument without the tone you used in your first few posts - which, at least to me, came across like you where ranting.

There is a difference in writing:

I do not understand why our Damage Shields have fallen behind Mages

And:

Mage DSs own ours, we suck, Sony hates us.

The first one is apt to get you a more considerate reply then the later.

Additionally, having done upwards of 100 hours worth of parsing the values of our attack debuffs, I personally took offense to you calling it meaningless because it clearly proved you hadn't reviewed the data available to you prior to writing your reply.

I don't think anyone here expects you to be an expert, and I am sure many people would like to help you, but you have been coming across as agressive and people have been replying in kind.

-Fenier

Palarran
08-29-2007, 02:47 PM
I'm on the Tribunal. Yes, lots of people have cleric alts. I have one myself; I play both my druid main and cleric alt on nearly all of our raids.

What you have to remember is that most people cannot 2-box a cleric very effectively. I can, but it has taken me years of practice (I have 2-boxed my druid main and cleric alt on nearly all of our raids for the past 3 years). Sure, a 2-boxed cleric may be adequate for some situations, but most people I know prefer a good druid over a cleric alt, except when massive AE damage is involved--and I know Fenier is working on getting Lunarlight bumped up to an appropriate power level for that reason.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 02:59 PM
The reason I started this thread is I am getting very discouraged with my druid, at 68th level a Dark Blue mob is deadly to me and has been for a long time. Yet my 40 Mage can take on three reds at a time and barely break a sweat.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
I love my druid he was the first class I picked when I started playing, He is the character that I most empathize with, and he is the one I play the most. But it can be very discouraging to get into a fight with a Light Blue or Green Mob and get my fanny handed to me on a platter. I should not be having this much trouble with this toon, I am 68th level and have 6.2K HPs, 6K mana, and an AC almost 1.4K unbuffed. With Buffs and the right campfire I can hit 10K HP, 8K mana, and AC 1.7K and with this got plastered by a light blue mob last night.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
The reasons;
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
He hit me and I couldnít cast a spell, my spells get interrupted by everything. Look a fly landed on your nose, your spell is interrupted. I have even had my spells interrupted when casting buffs while standing still.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
I take more damage from mob attacks than any one else in the party, the other day I had a gray hit me for 1.2K.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
And because of these 2 things my DPS output is terrible, I do more DPS with my weapon than with my spells. It is a joke in the group that I have to be covered more than the cleric because if I get looked at mean Iím dead.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
If I am not mobbed I get great DPS but if I draw agro I am dead as a mackerel before anyone can react.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->
I need new life in my druid, and I am sorry in a good party druid debuffs donít count for much. Raids may be different but then I donít raid. My greatest contribution to my groups is DSs and I can outrun mobs so I can lead off the adds. Run off mob succor and rejoin party.

Sippin
08-29-2007, 03:13 PM
Is there anything a druid can do best?

Is there anything we NEED to do best? It isn't all about being the best at a single ability. Historically druids have been a multi-talented class. I hesitate to use "jack of all trades" since it implies mediocrity at all of them but really the best a competent druid can really aspire to is to be really good, but not necessarily the best, in many different skills.

I play a 75 druid as well as a 75 mage and 75 wizard and I'd much rather solo with the druid. Mages lack heals, roots and snares and wizards lack heals and have practically no HPs or armor to speak of; both classes suffer from these shortcomings far more than a druid suffers in any talent area where s/he can't claim to be the best.

Personally, I'd like to see a 40 mage take on 3 reds at a time. Let me know when you do this again and I'll make a level 1 on your server and run there to watch. If your 68 druid is getting regularly plastered by single green mobs, you're doing some important things seriously wrong.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 03:18 PM
You may find better luck with poster replies (I can only speak for myself) if you research data prior to attempting to illusitrate a weakness by comparison, and present that data in a contructive argument without the tone you used in your first few posts - which, at least to me, came across like you where ranting.

There is a difference in writing:

I do not understand why our Damage Shields have fallen behind Mages

And:

Mage DSs own ours, we suck, Sony hates us.

The first one is apt to get you a more considerate reply then the later.

Additionally, having done upwards of 100 hours worth of parsing the values of our attack debuffs, I personally took offense to you calling it meaningless because it clearly proved you hadn't reviewed the data available to you prior to writing your reply.

I don't think anyone here expects you to be an expert, and I am sure many people would like to help you, but you have been coming across as agressive and people have been replying in kind.

-Fenier

While I may have come across as aggressive I made no attempt to insult, Your first reply came as a welcome counterpoint to my view. Then the next poster opens with an insult.

I think that is a pretty rude way to treat someone they have never even spoke to before.

I do appologize for the tone of aggression It was not my intent.

I do want to thank you. You have helped me to see something I didn't see before.

I do have a parsing experiment for you to consider though. Try doing the same experiment with creature that only get about 24 hits off before they die. That is the average number of hits the spiders in Vald get against my group. I will be willing to bet you that the numbers are drastically different in short fights.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 03:21 PM
Is there anything we NEED to do best? It isn't all about being the best at a single ability. Historically druids have been a multi-talented class. I hesitate to use "jack of all trades" since it implies mediocrity at all of them but really the best a competent druid can really aspire to is to be really good, but not necessarily the best, in many different skills.

I play a 75 druid as well as a 75 mage and 75 wizard and I'd much rather solo with the druid. Mages lack heals, roots and snares and wizards lack heals and have practically no HPs or armor to speak of; both classes suffer from these shortcomings far more than a druid suffers in any talent area where s/he can't claim to be the best.

Personally, I'd like to see a 40 mage take on 3 reds at a time. Let me know when you do this again and I'll make a level 1 on your server and run there to watch. If your 68 druid is getting regularly plastered by single green mobs, you're doing some important things seriously wrong.

I play on antonius Bayle and I take on the giants in Burning woods solo all the time, They are red and yellow to me. you are welcome to come watch.

If I only take on one red my pet does it for me. I don't even have to cast a spell.:thumbsup:

Fenier
08-29-2007, 03:25 PM
I do have a parsing experiment for you to consider though. Try doing the same experiment with creature that only get about 24 hits off before they die. That is the average number of hits the spiders in Vald get against my group. I will be willing to bet you that the numbers are drastically different in short fights.

If a mob is only alive for 24 hits then the value of all debuffs, including slow reduces drastically due to the high DPS of the group in question. I don' thave parse numbers for Vald spiders handy, but most exp trash mobs hit only around 40% of the time on a content geared Tank.

Additonally, 24 hits is a short sample size. If you were to take the hit logs of your spiders to come up with say 2400 Hits debuffed and 2400 hits normal, you would see the same pattern play out. It's just not as clear in short fights.

-Fenier

Fenier
08-29-2007, 03:28 PM
We would be able to better isolate your issue with dying with a Magelo profile and content area you are having issues with.

Additionally the 3 reds your 40s mage can kill are dissimilar to mobs at your level due to the fact that mobs at level 43 likely only double attack, and mobs at 68th likely tripple or quad attack per round.

-Fenier

Meltheanlor
08-29-2007, 03:34 PM
I am a 70 druid with some Qvic gear and I can Kite red mobs and I regularly solo/tank several Green/LB at the same time. I was soloing in GE from 65-70 going toe to toe with on average 8-10 mobs before i would have to sit and med. I know I have decent gear for a lvl 70 but I am in just a family guild not a raiding guild. I am not sure how you can say we are that weak.

This is just my 2 CP

serinity_inny
08-29-2007, 03:40 PM
"<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->"


This is the kind of stuff I see in your post and makes me want to skip it.

You talk about raid mobs and debuffs but you say your lvl 68? Also level 68 is not going to do well in valdeholm content.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 03:41 PM
We would be able to better isolate your issue with dying with a Magelo profile and content area you are having issues with.

Additionally the 3 reds your 40s mage can kill are dissimilar to mobs at your level due to the fact that mobs at level 43 likely only double attack, and mobs at 68th likely tripple or quad attack per round.

-Fenier

What is a Magelo Profile?

I understand the difference in mobs over the levels but I would think that if a 40th lvl mage can solo 3 reds at a time a 68 druid should be able to solo a white at least. If I try to solo a white I am toast in a big nasty fast way.

Fenier
08-29-2007, 03:44 PM
What is a Magelo Profile?
http://eq.magelo.com/home.jspa

Click the image in my sig to see what I mean.

I understand the difference in mobs over the levels but I would think that if a 40th lvl mage can solo 3 reds at a time a 68 druid should be able to solo a white at least. If I try to solo a white I am toast in a big nasty fast way.
You still have not qualifed the type of mob, and what exactly you are doing to attempt to solo it.

List the mob and zone you are attemping to kill, and the spells you are using to attempt to kill it.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 03:44 PM
I am a 70 druid with some Qvic gear and I can Kite red mobs and I regularly solo/tank several Green/LB at the same time. I was soloing in GE from 65-70 going toe to toe with on average 8-10 mobs before i would have to sit and med. I know I have decent gear for a lvl 70 but I am in just a family guild not a raiding guild. I am not sure how you can say we are that weak.

This is just my 2 CP

Not surprising considering most mobs in GE are gray to me at 68. I have to hunt for LB for exp and that is just slow as all get out.

serinity_inny
08-29-2007, 03:45 PM
I solo red/whites and yellows all the time....it is about your gear which is what magelo profiles show us. Mine is below. Fenier's is in his signature.

Also just so you know lvl 69 for DoN snare (you can buy a lower level version of it from the vendor at 62) is a saving gracer with solo.....hardly ever resisted.

http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1333393

Sippin
08-29-2007, 03:50 PM
Heck, I've always thought druids were second only to necros in being able to solo high-level reds. Necros have the edge for summoning reds since their pet can tank them. But druids can even handle summoners if there's a charmable animal in the zone. I used to solo the two big statue mobs guarding TT's zone in PoN (red to me at the time) by charming a raven.

Yeah, I still would like to see a 40 mage solo 3 level 43 or higher Burning Wood giants at the same time. Maybe you're kiting two of them around while your pet tanks one but I'm not convinced a 40 mage pet can solo a 43 giant without the mage stopping long enough to heal the pet frequently. I suppose you can run the 2 giants far enough away to get the 4 seconds or so you need to stop and heal. But such an encounter is hardly what I would consider taking on 3 reds at once, which implies battling the 3 of them all at the same time.

A 40 mage pet can beat down a 43 giant from start to finish without you casting one spell? I haven't played a mage at that level in a long time but that sounds surprisingly powerful for a PC pet, especially against giants.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 04:01 PM
http://eq.magelo.com/home.jspa

Click the image in my sig to see what I mean.


You still have not qualifed the type of mob, and what exactly you are doing to attempt to solo it.

List the mob and zone you are attemping to kill, and the spells you are using to attempt to kill it.

I will have to run it tonight and put profile up tomorrow

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 04:17 PM
http://eq.magelo.com/home.jspa

Click the image in my sig to see what I mean.


You still have not qualifed the type of mob, and what exactly you are doing to attempt to solo it.

List the mob and zone you are attemping to kill, and the spells you are using to attempt to kill it.

The mob is any and all 68th level mobs. If I attempt to snare it even with Mire Thorns it will break loose ( I get the message your Mire Thorns Spell has worn off of a %T ) before I can even cast a second spell. Or the Mob resists this hard to resist spell, I would say about half the times it is cast it is resisted.

If I root it then I usually manage to get 1 DOT off before it breaks loose. Then all I have to do is run until I can get enough disance to reroot or re dot.

If I get lucky enough to land Mire Thorns on the mob and it sticks, then I can Wasp Swarm, Imolation of the sun, run for a bit, Then Summer's Flame usually and run repeat until dead. But the usual outcome Is either Add = Death, or First attempted spell is resisted and Mob is on me before I can cast a second or run.

If the Mob gets ahold of me I am dead it is that simple, usually within 6 seconds but always within 12.

A great example of my spell failures is I got jumped by that Basher troll in Innothule the other day. This Mob is green to me. I cast Mire Thorns, Resisted. I ran, turned and Cast Mire Thorns again, resisted. I Tried Savage roots Resisted, I ran, I turned and tried Wasp swarm, You guessed it resisted. I tried Imolation of the Sun, lets all say it together, Resisted.
Mob caught me I spent the next 12 seconds stunned and then had to get cleric to rez me in Guild Lobby.

wackywizjr
08-29-2007, 04:21 PM
Heck, I've always thought druids were second only to necros in being able to solo high-level reds. Necros have the edge for summoning reds since their pet can tank them. But druids can even handle summoners if there's a charmable animal in the zone. I used to solo the two big statue mobs guarding TT's zone in PoN (red to me at the time) by charming a raven.

Yeah, I still would like to see a 40 mage solo 3 level 43 or higher Burning Wood giants at the same time. Maybe you're kiting two of them around while your pet tanks one but I'm not convinced a 40 mage pet can solo a 43 giant without the mage stopping long enough to heal the pet frequently. I suppose you can run the 2 giants far enough away to get the 4 seconds or so you need to stop and heal. But such an encounter is hardly what I would consider taking on 3 reds at once, which implies battling the 3 of them all at the same time.

A 40 mage pet can beat down a 43 giant from start to finish without you casting one spell? I haven't played a mage at that level in a long time but that sounds surprisingly powerful for a PC pet, especially against giants.

Try going to the Bazaar and looking at a summoned lucid belt, it is a pet toy that is good for an extra 850 Hit points then add a complete set of eidolons plate armor and that brings the total up to 1250 extra hit points, then add temp on top of that to the pet and you have 2050 extra hit points. For a 40th level pet that gives the pet around 8KHP and an AC around 1700, this makes the giants in BW look like candy...

Fenier
08-29-2007, 04:31 PM
The mob is any and all 68th level mobs. If I attempt to snare it even with Mire Thorns it will break loose ( I get the message your Mire Thorns Spell has worn off of a %T ) before I can even cast a second spell. Or the Mob resists this hard to resist spell, I would say about half the times it is cast it is resisted.

Mire Thorns should not be wearing off early unless it's dispelled. Do the mobs you attempt to solo Cast? Can you provide a specfic zone and mob this happens consisently on?

If I root it then I usually manage to get 1 DOT off before it breaks loose. Then all I have to do is run until I can get enough disance to reroot or re dot.

Savage Roots may not be viable for whatever your trying to solo. You should have better luck at 69 when you gain access to Spore Spiral.

If I get lucky enough to land Mire Thorns on the mob and it sticks, then I can Wasp Swarm, Imolation of the sun, run for a bit, Then Summer's Flame usually and run repeat until dead. But the usual outcome Is either Add = Death, or First attempted spell is resisted and Mob is on me before I can cast a second or run.

You need to watch out for adds. If your soloing you may need to harmony pull things.

As far as mob speed goes if you see a resist move first to create distance, then attempt to resnare. Mire Thorns should not resist normally however.

If the Mob gets ahold of me I am dead it is that simple, usually within 6 seconds but always within 12.

This can be solved somewhat via better gear and Damage avoidance/mitigation AAs.

A great example of my spell failures is I got jumped by that Basher troll in Innothule the other day. This Mob is green to me. I cast Mire Thorns, Resisted. I ran, turned and Cast Mire Thorns again, resisted. I Tried Savage roots Resisted, I ran, I turned and tried Wasp swarm, You guessed it resisted. I tried Imolation of the Sun, lets all say it together, Resisted.
Mob caught me I spent the next 12 seconds stunned and then had to get cleric to rez me in Guild Lobby.

That's actually a bad example, since old world guards are more resisant by design then most raid mobs due to the fact they are there to protect newbies, not be killed by players. While you can kill a Guard, they are not intended to be killed, and are thus extra difficult to kill.

Palarran
08-29-2007, 05:40 PM
What you have to realize is that mob power increases more quickly than player power, especially over level 60. Soloing a red con at level 40 is much easier than soloing a red con at level 68 or 75, regardless of class.

Sippin
08-29-2007, 09:24 PM
Try going to the Bazaar and looking at a summoned lucid belt, it is a pet toy that is good for an extra 850 Hit points then add a complete set of eidolons plate armor and that brings the total up to 1250 extra hit points, then add temp on top of that to the pet and you have 2050 extra hit points. For a 40th level pet that gives the pet around 8KHP and an AC around 1700, this makes the giants in BW look like candy...


http://eq1.eqsummoners.com/viewtopic.php?t=15851

Hmm.... according to the link above, from the magician's very own web site, the earth pet summonable at level 40 has 1450 HPs, not the 3800+ you imply in your numbers. Magicians get the most robust pets in EQ but they ain't that robust.

I don't have any toons on your server but with invis and a little luck I might be able to run a level 1 to BW and if so, I'd love to see your level 40 mage pet solo a giant without a single heal.

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 10:49 AM
https://eq.magelo.com/profile/1369700

I do not have skills and my few AAs programed in yet but here is my equipment profile...

:ohwell:

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 11:18 AM
Mire Thorns should not be wearing off early unless it's dispelled. Do the mobs you attempt to solo Cast? Can you provide a specfic zone and mob this happens consisently on?

The undead in Direwind Cliffs
All Mobs in Walls of Slaughter
Bears in Icefall? (I think that is were they are)

And the problem is dual if it doesn't wear off early it never lands in the first place.


Savage Roots may not be viable for whatever your trying to solo. You should have better luck at 69 when you gain access to Spore Spiral.

I have all but given up on root spells they never hold for more than 1 hit and usually end up getting me killed because they agro mobs beyond the warriors ability to get them off of me.



You need to watch out for adds. If your soloing you may need to harmony pull things.

The adds usually add after the pull not during it I have no trouble pulling just one creature. What usually happens is I will pull one and then while trying to kite him a wanderer comes by and goes oh look a fight...

As far as mob speed goes if you see a resist move first to create distance, then attempt to resnare. Mire Thorns should not resist normally however.

It is more of a speed/range thing. If the mobs are inside my range then they will hit me before the spell casts. If I am out of range I cant cast the spell till they get within range... It is a vicious circle that usually ends in an out of body experience.



This can be solved somewhat via better gear and Damage avoidance/mitigation AAs.

If you say raid gear, then no thank you I don't raid. I have been invited in 3 raids and I was used as cannon fodder to keep the tanks alive each time and then the raid said sorry we don't rez during a raid. So I got no EXP out of it and no loot. I got nothing but a 4% loss to EXP and a bad taste in my mouth for raids. (No this was not my guild and I won't say which guild it was.)



That's actually a bad example, since old world guards are more resisant by design then most raid mobs due to the fact they are there to protect newbies, not be killed by players. While you can kill a Guard, they are not intended to be killed, and are thus extra difficult to kill.

This mob attacks me on sight every time and always has and is green to me, it should not be hitting me for over 2K of damage at a time. The Spiders in Vald only hit me for 1k on average and they are around 75th lvl mobs.

To further explain the Vlad thing I am the lowest lvl in my group. The group is;

Warrior 75th with ~1500AAs
Mage 75th with ~2000AAs
Cleric 70th with ~300AAs
Enchanter 74th ~1000AAs
Rogue 72nd with ~300AAs
Druid 68th with ~ 50AAs

Yes I look out of place with this group but as long as they can keep agro off of me I add decent DPS and oddly enough I like the place because my Mire Thorns spell works there the most.

Sippin
08-30-2007, 11:37 AM
If that group has to work to keep aggro off you I suggest the warrior, rogue and mage are ninja-afk at all times.

serinity_inny
08-30-2007, 11:45 AM
You should not be able to solo icefall bears those are dblue, white and yellow to lvl 75.

Same with undead in Direwind.

At lvl 68 IF you want to solo head to the steppes and do the gnolls that are not archers. Great exp and you can work on the mana pres 6 aug which also has 50hp/mana.

If your friends are willing to let you group in valdeholm like that then they would probably help you get 8 no drop pelts for the bracer quest in valdeholm. http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=53700 this would help greatly on mana regen. (especially when you get the aa's that allow you to raise it over the normal cap.)

I would ditch all of the resist augs as soon as you can pick up other augs.

DoN merchant mana augs and if you want hps would serve you better.

Let me ask this when you are with that group are you leveling or doing AA's?

And if that warrior can't keep aggro off you something is up for sure, the rogue or mage should be stealing it more then you. (Snare when mob is at 40-50% not too early on)

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 12:04 PM
http://eq1.eqsummoners.com/viewtopic.php?t=15851

Hmm.... according to the link above, from the magician's very own web site, the earth pet summonable at level 40 has 1450 HPs, not the 3800+ you imply in your numbers. Magicians get the most robust pets in EQ but they ain't that robust.

I don't have any toons on your server but with invis and a little luck I might be able to run a level 1 to BW and if so, I'd love to see your level 40 mage pet solo a giant without a single heal.

I looked up the info from this website and re-ran my numbers from the combat log taking the 30pt/tick regen rate into acount.

Pet Calculated HP 1457, Listed 1450. (With Gear ~3500hp)
Giant Calculated HP 2326 (I have not found a listed HP for them and am assuming 30Pt/tick regen same as pet)
http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=4453

Mob hit to pet average 45pts, average number of hits per minute 24 or DPS of 18. Damage done after 1 minute of combat = 1080
Pet hit to mob average 75pts, avgerage number of hits per minute 26 or DPS of 32.5. Damage after 1 minute of combat = 1950

Monster dead in 12 ticks or 1 minute 12 seconds.

I do Have to add that my mage is twinked to the gills for his lvl. I have spent over 500K plat on his gear.

Try it it works quite well.

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 12:06 PM
If that group has to work to keep aggro off you I suggest the warrior, rogue and mage are ninja-afk at all times.

The problem is not when I am grouped with them only when I solo. The only time I get agro with them is when I crit nuke too early...:eek: For some reason that agros the heck out of the mobs...

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 12:27 PM
You should not be able to solo icefall bears those are dblue, white and yellow to lvl 75.

Same with undead in Direwind.

I have seen these bears kited 15 to 20 at a time by a 75 ranger. I am not joking about this. I told a friend I needed a quick AA point and he said come with me.

He snared around 15 bears and backed in circles for 35 minutes shooting arrows with his druzzil's bow and snared adds and wear offs as needed. he killed every single one of them in about 35 minutes and gave me a Ping and a 1/2 while I just watched. I never helped at all.

I told him he needed to start charging people to watch it because it is amazing as all heck to watch.

At lvl 68 IF you want to solo head to the steppes and do the gnolls that are not archers. Great exp and you can work on the mana pres 6 aug which also has 50hp/mana.

At the rate I get EXP from those I will be 5 years before I ding 69. I need about 10 to 15 kills per little blue bubble. There are 125 blue bubbles per lvl.
That is best case 1250 kills to lvl, worst case 1875. And that will be very very boreing after the first 200 kills.

If your friends are willing to let you group in valdeholm like that then they would probably help you get 8 no drop pelts for the bracer quest in valdeholm. http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=53700 this would help greatly on mana regen. (especially when you get the aa's that allow you to raise it over the normal cap.)

We are working on the pelts for me. :thumbsup:

I would ditch all of the resist augs as soon as you can pick up other augs.

DoN merchant mana augs and if you want hps would serve you better.

I can get new augs tonight if you can tell me why I would want my resists lower.

Let me ask this when you are with that group are you leveling or doing AA's?

Always lvling right now until I hit 70 then I will go to AAs for a few hundred or so.

And if that warrior can't keep aggro off you something is up for sure, the rogue or mage should be stealing it more then you. (Snare when mob is at 40-50% not too early on)

See answer above and is such a late snare a good idea. If I draw agro having the snare on the creature has kept me alive many times.

And one other thing about this are druid heals inherently more aggravating to mobs?

Our cleric can toss heals around like they are feathers and very seldom draws agro. I send in a Sylvan Infusion and Blammo the mobs come to shake my hand.

serinity_inny
08-30-2007, 01:22 PM
cleric prob has at least epic 1.5 if not 2.0 which helps with lowering aggro and she prob has spell casting subtelty.

If you fight in icefall or valdeholm name a mob you solo that cast on you?

Steppes might cast some but not much.

So might point is you want to survive more (hps) and be able to cast more (mana) and resists help you do neither. Also get the braaiinnss aug to put in your shield (ac in shield gives better return then any other spot)

At lvl 70 you can get some really nice type 12 mana/hp augs from DoN vendor.

If you spent 500k on your mage then I am guessing you also have the pp to get the radiant cut augs with affliction efficieny 5 on it and maybe consider getting one with Improved dodge III on one.

Until you get certain aa's I think you will be frustrated trying to solo mobs way above you and probably resisted ALOT.

a 75 ranger is totally different from 68 druid hands down he won't get resisted as much as you. Also if you think about it you want to find the weakest lvl dblue mob you can and solo those because they will die faster then reds, yellows and white and still get good aa exp.

Good luck to you whatever you choose.

I forgot to add you should look into the relic quests for a ring, earring and an aug that would help you out quite a bit.

Fenier
08-30-2007, 01:32 PM
And the problem is dual if it doesn't wear off early it never lands in the first place.

You 'are' aware that Mire Thorns has a 3 minute duration as opposed to a 15 minute duration yes?


I have all but given up on root spells they never hold for more than 1 hit and usually end up getting me killed because they agro mobs beyond the warriors ability to get them off of me.

Spore Spiral normally lasts full duration due to it being chromatic. Root AA also decrease the chances of it breaking.


The adds usually add after the pull not during it I have no trouble pulling just one creature. What usually happens is I will pull one and then while trying to kite him a wanderer comes by and goes oh look a fight...

Do it in the reverse order. Kill the Wanderer first. Time it, then kill the other mob. That way the wanderer doesn't jump you.

It is more of a speed/range thing. If the mobs are inside my range then they will hit me before the spell casts. If I am out of range I cant cast the spell till they get within range... It is a vicious circle that usually ends in an out of body experience.

Get an extended Range Augment.

If you say raid gear, then no thank you I don't raid. I have been invited in 3 raids and I was used as cannon fodder to keep the tanks alive each time and then the raid said sorry we don't rez during a raid. So I got no EXP out of it and no loot. I got nothing but a 4% loss to EXP and a bad taste in my mouth for raids. (No this was not my guild and I won't say which guild it was.)

You are a priest, it's not a uncommon expectation to expect you to heal in a raid environment.

As far as gear goes - there is no reason you can not get 200 / hp mana per slot armor at 68. At 75 This goes upto 280~ hp / mana per slot all from groupable content before augments.

If your using gear which is 125~ hp/mana or worse, then you can and should upgrade it.


This mob attacks me on sight every time and always has and is green to me, it should not be hitting me for over 2K of damage at a time. The Spiders in Vald only hit me for 1k on average and they are around 75th lvl mobs.

I'll repeat again. Old World Guards were not intended to be killed and are drastic undercons.

Fenier
08-30-2007, 01:35 PM
I can get new augs tonight if you can tell me why I would want my resists lower.

It's a function of what's important to you 'now' The zones you've been listing that you exp in do not typically have mobs which cast or AE. You do not raid. +Mana or +Hp/mana augments would serve you better in such a situation.


And one other thing about this are druid heals inherently more aggravating to mobs?

Our cleric can toss heals around like they are feathers and very seldom draws agro. I send in a Sylvan Infusion and Blammo the mobs come to shake my hand.

This is a function of AA and the type of Heals. HoTs do not generate aggro liek direct heals do. She wit that AA count likely has SCS maxed, which gives her considerably lower aggro per cast.

Fenier
08-30-2007, 01:40 PM
The problem is not when I am grouped with them only when I solo. The only time I get agro with them is when I crit nuke too early...:eek: For some reason that agros the heck out of the mobs...
Crticals do not generate any more aggro then normal nukes.

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 02:30 PM
Crticals do not generate any more aggro then normal nukes.

This I would need to see in the game code itself My experience with it argues against this statement very much. If I crit Nuke before the Mob gets below 85% I draw agro every time, No fail. If I crit after the 85% mark I never draw agro. Hence the technique of Snare, DOT, DOT, Nuke, Repeat till dead.:gunfight::boohoo:

I am going to be changing that to Snare, Debuff, DOT, DOT, Nuke, Repeat till dead after this conversation.

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 02:34 PM
It's a function of what's important to you 'now' The zones you've been listing that you exp in do not typically have mobs which cast or AE. You do not raid. +Mana or +Hp/mana augments would serve you better in such a situation.

Good enough I will invest in some different augs tonight, I will have to Bazaar farm a couple of 100K first but that should only take a couple of hours.




This is a function of AA and the type of Heals. HoTs do not generate aggro liek direct heals do. She wit that AA count likely has SCS maxed, which gives her considerably lower aggro per cast.

The cleric usually uses CH and ask me to keep Sylvan Infusion up for backup. Her Complete heal almost never draws agro maybe 1 in 100 times she casts it. SI gets me agro 1 in 3. it must be a function of her AAs she has chosen I will ask her to let me know what she has gotten.

Fenier
08-30-2007, 02:40 PM
This I would need to see in the game code itself My experience with it argues against this statement very much. If I crit Nuke before the Mob gets below 85% I draw agro every time, No fail.

This quote by Rashere the games Lead Dev says your incorrect.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=110464#1547798

It's pretty easy to confirm when you have the code in front of you showing that its using the value pulled straight from the spell data, not what it actually lands for, and the in-game debug showing the exact NPC aggro generated that matches the expectations set by the code.


Simply put, crits don't generate additional aggro in DDs or DoTs.

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 02:52 PM
You 'are' aware that Mire Thorns has a 3 minute duration as opposed to a 15 minute duration yes?

Yes




Spore Spiral normally lasts full duration due to it being chromatic. Root AA also decrease the chances of it breaking.

Then I will probably swith to it as soon as I can.


Do it in the reverse order. Kill the Wanderer first. Time it, then kill the other mob. That way the wanderer doesn't jump you.

Will Try.



Get an extended Range Augment.

I am looking for a good one I have one it is just weak.


You are a priest, it's not a uncommon expectation to expect you to heal in a raid environment.

As far as gear goes - there is no reason you can not get 200 / hp mana per slot armor at 68. At 75 This goes upto 280~ hp / mana per slot all from groupable content before augments.

If your using gear which is 125~ hp/mana or worse, then you can and should upgrade it.

I wasn't just asked to heal. The first time I was asked to be the primary healer and concentrate on the main tank. The main tank was in a group with 2 72+ clerics in it. When my chain healing of the warrior drew agro, He moved to another MOB and left me to fend for myself against a raid MOB.

The second time I was asked to nuke, I started nuking and got summoned, when The MOB switched to me the warrior moved to another MOB and left me to fend for myself against the MOB.

The last time, I was told to Nuke again and back up the healer, this is my normal mode so I was comfortable with it. Then at the final MOB, He summoned in a bunch of sub mobs. They went after the healers, The tank protected the clerics first understood, Then the mage, Then the other warrior. and by the time he got to me I had already been dead for close to a minute. I get a tell from the warrior "Sorry about that dude but you weren't going to get any treasure anyway because your not in our guild. Maybe you will at least survive next time." I answered "There won't be a next time."


I'll repeat again. Old World Guards were not intended to be killed and are drastic undercons.

It is still BS and they should be fixed at least to con right.

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 02:57 PM
This quote by Rashere the games Lead Dev says your incorrect.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=110464#1547798



I will remember this quote the next time I am waiting for rez effects to wear off. I will repeat the Mantra "It was not the crit nuke, MOBs just like me...":lmao:

Fenier
08-30-2007, 02:58 PM
It is still BS and they should be fixed at least to con right.

It's a waste of resources to raise their level every time the level cap increses. The gate guards iirc con red to 50 - which was the max level at the time of their development.

As far as your raiding experience goes - which encounter was this exactly?

Fenier
08-30-2007, 03:03 PM
I will remember this quote the next time I am waiting for rez effects to wear off. I will repeat the Mantra "It was not the crit nuke, MOBs just like me...":lmao:

Ok, let me see if I can explain this.

You have afaik, no ranks of SCS. This means every time you cast you gain full aggro from the spell you use.

In the first several percent of combat on a trash mob (which is basically the first 10 seconds) it's possible for a mob to be at 85 - then your nuke hits. Aggro is calucated off the base damage of the spell, so if you were to use, say Sol Strike, you'd gain 2000~ aggro (That value may be off, but it's good enough for what I am trying to explain).

If the tank hasn't generated that level of aggro yet - and they may not have, it's dependent on the tank in question, this may shift you to the top of the hate list, and the mob will either summon you, or run towards you.

The tank will then be incapable of regaining aggro until they exceed your aggro value, or they get a sucessful taunt.

It's important to note that DoTs have a hate value on the cast, but you will continue to build aggro as the DoT runs. This means it's easier for you to pull aggro with stacked DoTs then it is to chain nuke something.

-Fenier

-Fenier

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 03:12 PM
It's a waste of resources to raise their level every time the level cap increses. The gate guards iirc con red to 50 - which was the max level at the time of their development.

As far as your raiding experience goes - which encounter was this exactly?

I don't remember the names of them as I was never told, But one of them involved a Big Fat MOB in a tower that wouldn't leave his room. And I seem to remember something about BoT.

One was on plane of Time.

And another was at GE.

These were about 3-6 months ago so it is a little hard to remember them very well. I just remember the warriors final tell very clearly, and the fact that I came very close to leaving the game after that because everybody kept telling me you had to raid to get good equipment.

During my time around then I would sit around guild hall and Bazaar and refuse to go do anything. That is when I developed my technique for Bazaar farming and found out how much money can be made.:thumbsup:

wackywizjr
08-30-2007, 03:17 PM
Ok, let me see if I can explain this.

You have afaik, no ranks of SCS. This means every time you cast you gain full aggro from the spell you use.

In the first several percent of combat on a trash mob (which is basically the first 10 seconds) it's possible for a mob to be at 85 - then your nuke hits. Aggro is calucated off the base damage of the spell, so if you were to use, say Sol Strike, you'd gain 2000~ aggro (That value may be off, but it's good enough for what I am trying to explain).

If the tank hasn't generated that level of aggro yet - and they may not have, it's dependent on the tank in question, this may shift you to the top of the hate list, and the mob will either summon you, or run towards you.

The tank will then be incapable of regaining aggro until they exceed your aggro value, or they get a sucessful taunt.

It's important to note that DoTs have a hate value on the cast, but you will continue to build aggro as the DoT runs. This means it's easier for you to pull aggro with stacked DoTs then it is to chain nuke something.

-Fenier

-Fenier

What you say is probably true after all you have no reason to lie. I just have a hard time believing it. Every time I draw agro it is from a heal or a crit nuke before the mob gets to 85%. I can nuke three times back to back with the mob at 90% and not draw agro. But if even one of them is a crit. Blammo!

jiga
08-30-2007, 06:41 PM
At level 68, try soloing stuff in the older expansion. They have less hitpoints. If you are KT flagged, try killing in the primal area of Yxxta, they have low hitpoints and don't resist your snares. But they will hit hard and fast if they catch you.

And you can use your ensnare to overwrite mire. Very useful in kiting.

Also, if you are exp hungery and want to maximize your LoD, you can always fight snareable fleeing mobs. Pull mob, kite till fleeing, then leave it alone, pull next mob, rinse and repeat until you have a bunch of snared fleeing mobs. Blow you LoD, get some sweet exp. It gets boring after awhile though.

Lowerth
08-31-2007, 09:11 AM
I am going to be changing that to Snare, Debuff, DOT, DOT, Nuke, Repeat till dead after this conversation.

I see no reason to put snare first. Snare is a huge agro tool.
Try Debuff, dot, dot, nuke, nuke, and snare at 50-70% this should help you a lot.

Agro management is the most important skill for anyone to learn. As you progress through the game environment you will be running into more mobs that will have a higher chance to one or two round you.
Your mana does you no good when you are having an "out of body experience"
Adjust your play style and agro level to your environment and reevaluate on an encounter basis untill you find your comfort level.

Fenier
08-31-2007, 02:33 PM
I don't remember the names of them as I was never told, But one of them involved a Big Fat MOB in a tower that wouldn't leave his room. And I seem to remember something about BoT.

One was on plane of Time.

And another was at GE.

Ok, without exact encounter names, this is going to be a bit more difficult, but I'll try to present a viewpoint of someone who leads raids.

I wasn't just asked to heal. The first time I was asked to be the primary healer and concentrate on the main tank. The main tank was in a group with 2 72+ clerics in it. When my chain healing of the warrior drew agro, He moved to another MOB and left me to fend for myself against a raid MOB.

This healing setup is viable for several targets. It's not that uncommon. So to better understand your complinant see if you can remember the answers to the following questions:

Did the mob he was orignally tanking die prior to the target switch - and / or did additional mobs spawn during the encounter? Raid mobs spawning adds (several at a time) has been common practice since PoP. If the raid was light on tanks he may have only been able to get one of them, which left you with the add.

The second time I was asked to nuke, I started nuking and got summoned, when The MOB switched to me the warrior moved to another MOB and left me to fend for myself against the MOB.

Are you totally sure that he switched targets, and didn't just fail taunt? Tanks 'are' able to pull mobs back to them, with taunt, but it can and does fail. This may leave you tanking for slightly longer then your able to survive.

One thing I've noticed is all of your comments center around a single tank. Raids typically need several to survive most raid content past Luclin. You need to remember in a raid setting running around is not conductive to living longer. While kitting may seem an excellant idea, people have a harder time getting the mob from you that way. I am not saying you did kite, or you are in the wrong in any way - just something to consider.

Deaths on raids are common, esp for people who's gear is less then the content they are raiding as a guest or applicant. When my guild was doing Gates progression, Kelekdrix in Inktu'ta flat out owned our applicants due to the upwards of 7k AE damage they can generate when the event starts.

In any event where you deal damage - and this applies down to the group level, over aggroing is apt to get you killed. As we've said before SCS AA line will help you draw aggro less, and allow you to nuke / heal more often without generating the full amount of hate that goes with it.

Finally on any encounter where adds spawn on or near the raid it's expected that 1 or 2 people will get unlucky and owned prior to the raid locking them down. Having raided from Kunark and now entering DoD and PoR it's the same situation. Adds kill people, be it in Vex-Thal, or Queen Sendaii.

Now I'm sorry your raiding experience wasnt a positve one, but I would suggest not writing the entire thing off based on your interactions with that one guild.

-Fenier

Rajolae
09-04-2007, 12:02 AM
Maybe I haven't looked into weather we are the best at it or not but have noted this has very minimal effect on combat at best. Try this, /log one of your combat sessions and then go back and look at mobs debuffed verses mobs not debuffed. You will see that on average the mobs die 1 to 2 ticks faster. That is a whole lot of mana on creatures for very little DPS return. We would be better off hitting them with our weapons wish gives an average of 3 to 4 ticks faster with a good weapon.

Yes I understand what alfa means I am not an idiot, but if this is their consept for beta test than we are truly going to be hurting after the next expansion. These upgrades are far short of what is needed to put druids back into the game. A sinple fix would be give us a one spell all resists buff for 75 points each... It would be a buff people would want because it only takes 1 slot instead of the four we need now. Or make or net damage shield last for 30 minutes as... Or an invis that doesn't drop off if you walk within 200 feet of a zone...



So now you tell me that not only does the armor available to me have less AC bonus but I also am inefective at using it? That really helps...

Judging by the bolded stuff, I'd be inclined to disagree with the underlined and bolded part. Also, the benefit form our ATK debuffs is just that, the ATK debuff parts. People can post parses for days cataloging the benefit they provide. You also must be oblivious to the group camo AA.


When a mob has an AC of 2.5K lowering it by 15 doesn't mean anything, and decreasing attack on a mob that has an attack of 2K is pretty meaningless. But lets decrease a mobs fire resist by 72 lets see that will bring him down to what 500 instead of 572. Did you even read the stats on the raid mobs before you went on the raid? Most raid mobs have HPs in the 100s of K, by casting this spell you have increased everyone damage output by about 2% on average. That means over the entire combat the mob takes an extra 2000 hp of damage. For a mana cost of 165 if you only have to cast it once in that time. If the Combat lasts only 100 ticks that is a DPS of 3.6 points per second. Congrats a warrior with a toothpick has that beat.


Yeah, I'm going to totally disagree with that "I'm not an idiot" statement you made.

Rajolae
09-04-2007, 12:27 AM
Spirit of the Wood
Legacy / Shield of X
Convergance of Spirits
Hungry Vines Recourse
Fernspur

Fernspur is 499 x 8 hits. That means it deals 3992 Damage at minimum assuming all 8 hits land. It also has a 10% chance to proc Wild Fernspurs which equals 8 hits of 998, or a total of 7984 unresistable damage. In addition to this the buff is extended by SCRM AA and is instant cast.

Mage Skin DS is a max of 4 hits, giving them a Total of 2196. This makes Fernspur 45% more powerful at the cost of twice as many hits to deal the damage. On a Wild Fernspur Proc this makes Fernspur 68% more powerful.

Sir, when was the last time anyone seriously used Hungry Vines in any setting? That spell is the equivalent of the turds my dog leaves in the backyard. I'm not going to bother going through the same old song and dance as to why Fernspur isn't a good spell again. Also, SCRM doesn't affect the num hits part of Fernspur anyway, which is the real limiting factor of the spell. We are also trying to get the DS removed from SotW/CoS or at least have upgraded versions or some such that lack the DS component.

Rajolae
09-04-2007, 12:44 AM
Bow kiting is slow. Archery damage is cut in half on moving or rooted mobs, if I remember right.

In any case, it seems there's a general shortage of healing in the game, and as one of only three classes that can call healing a primary role, good druids are in high demand--sometimes even as the "hero" (sole healer). No, we can't do it as well as a cleric can, but we do it well enough for most purposes.


He's refering to Hail of Arrow kiting, which from what I understand is pretty much as broken good as Wizards kiting with Beam of Solteris.

Taolana
09-04-2007, 02:01 AM
I use hungry vines sometimes...snare + ds...why not

Micahle
09-04-2007, 02:32 AM
I haven't used it since the week i got it, which wasn't long after OoW release. total rubbish it is.

Sanoliene
09-04-2007, 02:45 AM
good for pl'ing

Micahle
09-04-2007, 05:26 AM
Yep, cus that's what we should base new spell lines and upgrades on; How much use they are for PLing. :banghead:

Sanoliene
09-04-2007, 07:34 AM
oh I agree with you totally I think the spell is useless :eek: and I hate pl'ing so I never use it. Was just highlighting the only use is horrid!

Fenier
09-04-2007, 09:05 AM
I use it occasionally, but always more for the vie / ds then the snare.

Palarran
09-04-2007, 09:25 AM
I use Hungry Vines on rare occasion as a pre-snare when there are a lot of snareable mobs in a small space.

Conveniently, I play a cleric at the same time, so I can give myself DI just before doing so. :P

But yeah, it's a spell that I only find a use for once every few months or so.

wackywizjr
09-04-2007, 11:36 AM
Judging by the bolded stuff, I'd be inclined to disagree with the underlined and bolded part. Also, the benefit form our ATK debuffs is just that, the ATK debuff parts. People can post parses for days cataloging the benefit they provide. You also must be oblivious to the group camo AA.



Yeah, I'm going to totally disagree with that "I'm not an idiot" statement you made.


Pardon My dyslexia and bad typing asswipe

wackywizjr
09-04-2007, 11:40 AM
I'm sorry but the constant need to insult and belittle her has driven me away, The moderators here need to learn that insulting people is bad and should be stopped. I have had enough of your self righteous aditude and stupidity. If I want people to look down their nose at me I can go just about anywhere. I came here to try and improve my play in the game and get attacked personally multiple times.

This is enough.

Good bye.

Fanra
09-06-2007, 07:38 AM
Is there one thing we can do better than any other class?

YES THERE IS!

As FyyrLuStorm said:

"We can turn people into wolves who do not want to be wolves better than ANY other class."

Allegretta
09-12-2007, 01:54 PM
I'm sorry but the constant need to insult and belittle her has driven me away, The moderators here need to learn that insulting people is bad and should be stopped. I have had enough of your self righteous aditude and stupidity. If I want people to look down their nose at me I can go just about anywhere. I came here to try and improve my play in the game and get attacked personally multiple times.

This is enough.

Good bye.

Actually I think Fenier went above and beyond to provide information and to answer your questions. Can't you take what's useful to you and ignore the rest?

Riverwinter
09-18-2007, 04:45 PM
I'm sorry but the constant need to insult and belittle her has driven me away, The moderators here need to learn that insulting people is bad and should be stopped. I have had enough of your self righteous aditude and stupidity. If I want people to look down their nose at me I can go just about anywhere. I came here to try and improve my play in the game and get attacked personally multiple times.

This is enough.

Good bye.

For a guy with only a couple dozen posts, he was surely expert, cutting and pasting and quoting, skillz fer shure. :ohwell:

Haven't you all learned not to feed the trolls. :banghead:

akilah
09-19-2007, 02:50 PM
I apologize for not reading all the replies in this post, but just wanted to mention a few things about my Druid and my Guild's Druids. Realizing, that Druids by Nature don't do any one thing better than another class, we do however do a lot of things well and is why we are so versatile and valuable.

My Druid has been what I call a Healing Druid since he was born. Most of the Druids in my guild, Sanity's Edge on Povar (Formally Valheru), are required to be healers. We quite often have mostly and on some occassions all Druids in the CHR. We are currently farming CoA, have gotten into Qvic, ToB, DSK, 2 kills as a guild away from Demi-Plane and close on a Vish kill. If it weren't for our Druids, we wouldstill be in Time.

So in my opinion, Druids, are extremely valuable and needed. Just wish Sony would upgrade our CH and not give us too many more snares.

Kadwen
09-19-2007, 09:16 PM
I will admit that the druid class is challenging to play and sometimes frustrating. However, this is what makes a game a game, the challenege no?

Iv'e had many doubts about the dev team but it just takes a while to get into the ideal moment where you understand the situation and know which abilities would be best suited.

Khauruk
09-20-2007, 11:12 PM
Ignore CHes for the rest of your life...they won't get upgraded. Fight for other healing tools/other healing methods, those you have a chance on.

KR won't get upgraded, just like CH won't ever be upgraded.