View Full Forums : Druid Class Issue (Group Heals)


Fenier
11-10-2007, 01:35 PM
This is for discussion on Moonshadow, Lunarlight, and Crescentbloom.

Now, We have tried to use spreadsheets, cross priest comparison and so forth to get this line addressed. None of that so far has worked. Thus, I want to try something else.

This is what I need. I need examples of the spell not working in the content it was designed for.

Moonshadow would be DoD / PoR
Lunarlight would be TSS / TBS

I need examples be it group / or raid. I need to know ideally what group makeup you have, what the issue is, what you are fighting, and where.

I am hoping we can come up with enough examples of why it's lacking (outside of spreadsheets) for them to take a serious look at the heals and possibly make adjustments.

-Fenier

Kamion
11-10-2007, 04:14 PM
On lethar (TSS/NAG), Lunarlight seems quite underpowered. Every time a I heal AE damage, I find myself having to cast LL+2-to-3 blast heals on people LL didn't crit on, took more damage, etc... where as clerics can do a better job in just 1 group heal cast.

Artreth
11-10-2007, 04:19 PM
Going back even further, Vish raids ... yeah it hasnt been an issue with me keeping the group alive, but Moonshadow doesnt heal even wizards to full health unless it crits (which isnt guaranteed) ... also sucks in demi.

I refused to buy Lunarlight as it wasnt a bigg enough upgrade imo to warrant me wasting the orum on it.

Glynna1
11-10-2007, 04:37 PM
On lethar (TSS/NAG), Lunarlight seems quite underpowered. Every time a I heal AE damage, I find myself having to cast LL+2-to-3 blast heals on people LL didn't crit on, took more damage, etc... where as clerics can do a better job in just 1 group heal cast.

I agree with Kamion 100% I rarely see LL crit and it is very ineffective

Aderel
11-10-2007, 05:32 PM
I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but if math doesn't work on devs I just don't see how anecdotes would.

I've gotta say I've pretty much given up on the whole class balance issue and accepted the fact that we're not bringing much to the table and it's going to stay that way until they close down the servers. Druids suck for healing and druids suck for dps and that's that. At least that is my belief and it seems to be shared by many in my guild.

I think I'd rather not have any group heals at all instead of having these sorry excuses for heals. That way I wouldn't constantly be placed in the frustrating position of having to heal AEs with these god awful tools. I mean, the heals have crap efficiency to begin with, but why stack a 18s recast on them to compound the problem?

What's really tragic about our heals is how close clerics are to our dps when they are trying. I've seen guild clerics parse over 900 dps, beating fellow druids occasionally. This is compared to the 1k-1.2k I usually do, and 1.3k-1.5k (1486 dps is my best recorded parse) on a really good day with bard and mana recursion. This dps only lasts for 4ish minutes ofcourse and then it will be pretty much zero. On the same parses the real dps classes are doing well over 3k dps. (btw, I'm not saying clerics do too much dps. I'm just saying druid dps is sub par)

With our current relative healing abilities I'd say we'd need a 50% dps boost to be considered a powerful class that equals any other powerful class in eq. I'm sure some choked on their morning coffee reading that but I don't think any lesser boost would make anyone seriously consider druids being useful dps, let alone powerful.

Sorry for the rant! I become bitter when I think about eq mechanics. ;)

Tobynn
11-10-2007, 05:40 PM
I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but if math doesn't work on devs I just don't see how anecdotes would.
Yup, that about sums it up, although I'm hoping Fenier has some Magic Wand tucked away.

Its been made clear, for three expansions now, that our group heal is working as intended. I don't undersstand how storytime will improve anything. The calculations have been presented, repeatedly, and we have been denied, repeatedly.

I just don't understand why the spell devs just don't come right out and say ... druid group heals are not getting revamped. They very clearly shot Dire Charm dead when they got tired of hearing about it. I think its high time they quit stringing us along and just put the group heal down too. I'll continue to focus my efforts on something that has a chance in hell of getting fixed, like 2nd Recall for example.

Fenier
11-10-2007, 06:01 PM
Secondary Recall is supposed to be looked at after SoF launch and code has more time.

Dire Charm was brought up during SoF beta and the dev team (not just Nodyin) rejected it.

Prathun works on spells. It's clear that the WoR nerf clerics got is going to impact us, and if we can present a solid case of examples (because I already have the spreedsheets) I may be able to draft up a solid arguement to forward to Rashere and Prathun.

-Fenier

Riffen
11-13-2007, 12:22 PM
Blah, blah, blah and more blah. I'm not a cleric and I have no desire to be one, I'm getting pretty tired of all the discussion on heals, if somebody needs a heal, I cast one or two if need be, yes the group heals suck, oh well, judging by the nerfs, they most likely always will. I have to agree with Aderel, some of us, believe it or not, have been evocation druids by design from the start. I would love to see DPS addressed, but we have a CC who only cares about debuffs and heals. Every time DPS is brought up, it just gets shoved under the rug. Fix the AAs that are broken like Exodus, Secondary Recall (should never collapse, imo), give us AA port to second bind like wizards have (druids could port before wizards could, it should be a natural AA for us to have), and give us some significant DPS increases. Did I say DPS? Oh yeah, and DPS. Maybe DPS, too.

P.S. This post will be buried/ignored, etc., like always, but I guess I had to vent to feel better. We can tell stories until we're blue in the face, but only a select few (the ones that deal with healing or the occasional debuff) will even be looked at.

Aldier
11-13-2007, 01:18 PM
Posting in the thread titled "Druid Class Issue (Group Heals) is probably NOT the best place to whine about DPS.

Perhaps start the thread..."Druid Class Issue (DPS). Notice also, there are several new threads "Druid Class Issue (XXX) in an attempt for Fenier to organize the thoughts and suggestions to prevent exactly what you are doing.


I think our group heals are slightly on the weak side, but I am not in the top cutting edge content to know if they are going to hold up in the next expansion my guild tackles. Also, I have to go back and see how lunarlight works for me now because until the changes to focus degradation, my average heal with Moonshadow was equal or better than LL. Mana pres was also better, but with some new foci acquired and the changes to degradation, I need to give it another shot.

I agree though, that data, hard numbers, should be the convincing evidence, not stories.

Fenier
11-13-2007, 01:20 PM
I would love to see DPS addressed, but we have a CC who only cares about debuffs and heals. Every time DPS is brought up, it just gets shoved under the rug

First, this isn't a thread denoted to DPS. I am looking at DPS and other balance concerns in a few weeks once people gain access to new spells and the dust settles.

Secondly, our DPS is balanced around Mages. We're not going to exceed that baseline, no matter how much Evoc specced Druids want it to happen.

Third, and beta tests can verify this, I gave quite a bit of feedback on Storm Strike, which was designed for druids who like to do DPS.

-Fenier

Riffen
11-13-2007, 02:39 PM
Looks to me that I picked exactly the right thread to post that in, it got noticed rather than "Marked as Read". As suggested, I will start a DPS thread. On topic: I don't foresee any changes going in to our healing spells, the group heals will suck, we aren't clerics, and never will be, and a lot of us don't even want to be. Yes, I would love to see some improvements like a bit more mana efficiency, shorter refresh times on group heals, anything that would be an improvement, but I really think we are beating a dead horse as evidenced in the last few expansions. I'll take what we get and use it like always, but if data can't get results, I highly doubt anything else can.

Tenielle
11-13-2007, 04:15 PM
I have no complaints with druid healing capabilities. SoTF was icing on the cake and now, I actually have another gem I can put it in.

morderir
11-14-2007, 02:20 PM
and now i have one gem freed from sotr :mad:

nduma
11-15-2007, 04:34 PM
Druid group healing is shyte. We do a terrible job with our group heal that time and time has to be augmented with blast heals.

You know clerics can't heal their group completely when the whole group needs healing but, at least when they cast a group heal spell, it does enough to keep the group alive for a few and hey guess what if everyoen still needs another heal, they can do that right away.

A druid in the same group will throw on a group heal that will do significantly less which means they too will have to augment but, augment using blast heals and who knows by that time they might lose one or two people because they had to heal each person individually.

Survival of the Fittest is NOT a group heal spell, it is a spell that was designed for emergency healing, it should have been an AA but, they out right refused for this to happen. It wasn't created to augment our group healing ability. So it cannot be considered in the balance of our group healing ability.

We have one group heal that we can use and that has been acknowledged across all levels, designers, competing classes such as clerics and paladins, our group heal is bad.

Our Lunarlight and Crescentbloom spells need to IMO have 3 things changed.

1) Increase heal amount - mudflation of HPs, increased damage with the expansion needs to be reflected in the heals
2) Decrease the mana cost - no matter what have to use blast heals to top people off, unless the group heal base is significant, then we use a lot more mana than others to keep a group alive.
3) Possibly code in having a higher chance to crit on the spell. When it comes to group healing in today's content - we are completely reliant on the crit for the heal to do enough. When we don't crit - we get screwed with having to use a lot more mana using single target heals.