I believe the devs no longer have a clear understanding of what they want from the class or what they expect players to enjoy while playing it.

Before I begin, let me preface by saying that I have always been an optimist when it comes to playing druid. Over the years I have played devil's advocate with those that believe that the druid class is a dps and and also those that believe we are a healing class. Through the years I've felt that our utility bridges the gap of slightly lesser dps and healing.

That gap has become a ravine.

It's absolutely no secret that casters had fallen far behind the curve on a dps scale. Any parse could have told you that the true dps class carried a weapon instead of a wand. I watched night after night as more and more melee classes joined the top ranks (our guild runs a parser for nearly every event). I can tell you that the distancing between caster and melee dps over the years is very real, to the point that the tank classes were out-dpsing our wizards, even the ones tanking!!

When it was announced some time ago that the devs realized that the long cast times in EQ were not aging well, I was optimistic. When that fix ended up being the fix for wizards only, I was angry. Now that I'm seeing the net result of that change, I'm to the point where my long-time passion for the class and game is waning.

I was fine with doing comparable damage. Now I'm wondering where we stand. I went from barely being able to scrape 1.2k dps to barely being able to scrape 1.3k dps after SoF. That would have been fine, if I were not for the fact that SoF blew the lid off straight dps class dps. Need proof?

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/948/orc24ro1.jpg

Wizards are now doing 4k DPS!! (Dise and Ceelani are the wizard classes on that list)

The numbers speak for themselves. It used to be bringing a druid along to heal for a grind every bit as good as a cleric because the class was also a functional dps class. Now what's the point? Our dps hasn't changed at all. It just hasn't. We're awful. We're forgotten. You need one druid on a raid for skin and debuffs.

So my question is, what is the threshold between a straight dps class and a "functional dps" class? Should a straight dps class have 3 times the capabilities of the functional dps class? Where have the margins gone? Is this reasonable? Are our debuffs really that valuable?

As a good friend of mine said recently, "druids have become Jack-of-all-traded to obscurity". This same friend recently main swapped from druid to wizard. I've actually seen this happen twice in the last 3 months and I will give you names to prove it:

Dose (druid and guild leader of Conviction) --> Dise (his wizard)
Hippe (long time druid and good friend) --> Imiik (his monk)

Hippe didn't even bother getting his druid to 80 first he was so bored with him.

And that's where I stand. I'm wondering if this is where we can expect to stay. If it is, I don't expect I'll be playing this game (or at least this class) past the PoP anniversary. I'm frustrated and angry, I feel very ineffective as a druid in this game and I'm wondering what's the point?

And that's where I stand. I'm wondering if this is where we can expect to stay. If it is, I don't expect I'll be playing this game (or at least this class) past the PoP anniversary. I'm frustrated and angry, I feel very ineffective as a druid in this game and I'm wondering what's the point?

Near as I can tell, Druids are expected to be Clerics. Heals have been improved considerably, their types expanded to HoT and other kinds of heals that the developers once swore Druids would never get.

They also announced a while back that Druid nukes are going to be identical in power to Mage DPS, which incidentally explains why Druid DPS has been stationary in the Secrets of Faydwer era. Mages did get a much needed boost to their DPS, only it was through their pets (which now make up at least half of their DPS) which means that per their edict Druids could not get better DPS.
Desperate pleas to base Druid AND Mage DPS off Wizard have gone unheard, so it is unlikely that Druids will ever again contribute meaningful DPS post level 70 or in the newer expansions.

So, to answer your question where Druids are left, my best guess is that the game needs replacement Clerics and Druids are chosen to be it. Trying to twist a class that never was meant to be healer and a game that does not really allow alternative methods, the developers are turning Druids gradually into "Cleric Light", and because healers are not supposed to deal damage, Druid DPS "obviously" needs to be curtailed. Which is what we have been seeing the past year and a half.
Maybe I am a tiny bit cynical about it, but that is how it looks like to me.


Eri

With only a few exceptions, SoF had vanilla upgrades for all 3 priest classes. Whatever made you go from loving the class to hating the class probably has little to do with actual changes to the class and more to do with gut feelings, or something.

From the sounds of it, you'd probably be better off switching mains.

Try a ranger. Before I quit my druid, and later EQ, a ranger was a fun class to play. They seem to be about what you are hinting about as a functional Dps class, with versatility. I don't know about now, with the latest expansions how well they would do. But, they were fun to off tank(substitute fun druid stuff), tank(at least not end game stuff), pull, crowd control, just beat on mobs, soloing, being the last one in the group standing off a wipe(and laughing about it), whatever floats your boat at the time, you know kinda like how a druid used to be.

So my question is, what is the threshold between a straight dps class and a "functional dps" class? Should a straight dps class have 3 times the capabilities of the functional dps class? Where have the margins gone? Is this reasonable? Are our debuffs really that valuable?

I measure all such questions in 'total output.'

Don't feel like getting into numbers yet again, but if you take all forms dps + healing + mitigation we're prity much the worst class ever, and there's only any doubt since enchanters can, on occasion, be terrible too.

In super-lazy-hypothetical-land balance is clerics doing 2000 health per second, wizard doing 2000 dps, and druids doing some value whos total also equals 2000. Of course that's not possible for us in any combination under the sun. Add our inferior efficiency and feeble mana tools to the picture and it's depressing.

qoute"In super-lazy-hypothetical-land balance is clerics doing 2000 health per second, wizard doing 2000 dps, and druids doing some value whos total also equals 2000. Of course that's not possible for us in any combination under the sun. Add our inferior efficiency and feeble mana tools to the picture and it's depressing."


Earlier in the developement of Eq, the first 3 expansions, especially with the group buffs when they were added, a druid would certainly have had those characteristics. The "mitigation" provided with damage shields and regenerations were a good selling point with druids in groups with decent direct damage abilities. Wizards were capable of very good direct damage, the highest in direct damage.

Mages and druids were relatively equal direct damage wise, with the mage having the pet do quite a bit more and a better damage shield to mitigate, and being competitive along with things like coth, with druids bringing up the rear with their direct damage, single target snare capabilities, regens, damage shields, small heals. It would even out, between those 3 classes, each having their skill sets and drawbacks but, still competitive with each other.

Unfortunely, the damage shields and regens, didn't scale to well after Luclin, with the high spikes with PoP and on, so, that was a loss of utility. With that 2K health and Dps idea, prior to pop, you would get about that, not, the 2k damage and healing part(it was more around 150 dps in that era), but, relatively the same concept.

That parse is awesome, my guild doesnt see numbers anywhere near that (we are half way through solteris). I guess its only a minute and a half in duration but still pretty impressive.

100 seconds to kill the orc? Is that 1 add wave?

I can't see the game from your level, I've never been there but I can sympathise with your post after playing a druid almost exclusively since '99.

We've been beaten to death with the utility stick for years, despite the worth of that utility dropping with every expansion. Travel is inconsequential. SoW, Levitate, Invis etc. can all be bought out of a bottle. We can heal, but not all that well and we certainly aren't scaled to the cleric as was claimed. We can do damage but to suggest we could make a meaningful DPS contribution to a group or raid seems a little laughable looking at your parse.

There is a problem with increasing our DPS though and that's soloing. We have skills that make it easy to solo and I doubt anyone wants to make it even easier.

Maybe a one shot AA could be introduced that scales our damage as group size increases. If you're solo you see no increase, a 10% increase in a duo, 15% in a trio, 20% in a 4 man group, 25% for 5 and 30% in a full group. Maybe even a little more if you're a member of a raid.

Call it Energy of the Pack or something similar to keep it in character.

There is a problem with increasing our DPS though and that's soloing. We have skills that make it easy to solo and I doubt anyone wants to make it even easier.

I've never liked that arguement, and in the face of group content which devs state cleary IS the core of EQ, it's simply invalid for druids to hurt in other aspects because of our perceived power at soloing.

I have to laugh, however. They could double the dps of our dots and nukes and my experience solo would increase maybe 10%, half it lose maybe 10%. Charm is just too foolproof in that regard. They'd have to almost triple dps for me to switch away from charm.

the dps gap is huge.
we have been turned towards being weak clerics because clerics were too boring and lots left.
how they think they can replace clerics with us i have never understood... we won't like the job any more than clerics did.

at least if someone rolled a cleric, they pretty much HAD to understand at the time that "Hey, I am rolling a cleric to heal... that's my job. That's my spell lineup. I will be THE BEST HEALER CLASS in the game."

how they can expect druids to accept ****ty heals AND ****ty dps and not leave in droves... i don't know.

i remember the days where i solidly kicked ass over a warrior for dps. no where close, now.


i am going to be just stupid enough to see if merloc and prathun make these type 3 augs do anything for us. not holding my breath, but i'm willing to look at it. (dumb, i know. cynical as i am, i keep hoping anyway) otherwise... yeah... after PoP fabled would be a good exit time i guess.

I've never liked that arguement, and in the face of group content which devs state cleary IS the core of EQ, it's simply invalid for druids to hurt in other aspects because of our perceived power at soloing.

The important word there is perceived. I don't particularly like the argument either but it is one that will be levelled at the devs if they increase our solo DPS. There's no point making one class happier if it just upsets 6 other classes whose perception is that we're already strong soloers, however we do it.

I measure all such questions in 'total output.'

Don't feel like getting into numbers yet again, but if you take all forms dps + healing + mitigation we're prity much the worst class ever, and there's only any doubt since enchanters can, on occasion, be terrible too.

There was a discussion on the official EQ veterans board to this extend where several raid leaders said as much and were firmly shot down for it by others.
The problem of course being that both sides of the argument (would not call it a discussion after a few posts) were saying different things that each on their own were correct:
- I would have rather any other class than a druid in the raid since they will be able to perform better. (which is correct, clerics and probably shamans do make better healers in raid content, wizard and just about everybody else provide better dps. There is nothing particularly unique to druids that requires more than one on a raid, a problem shared with enchanters).
- Druids are not useless, they can replace clerics when needed. (which is also correct. Druid healing has been boosted enough that it can be used to fill in the gaps left by insufficient clerics. Just not as efficient and secure).

In super-lazy-hypothetical-land balance is clerics doing 2000 health per second, wizard doing 2000 dps, and druids doing some value whos total also equals 2000. Of course that's not possible for us in any combination under the sun. Add our inferior efficiency and feeble mana tools to the picture and it's depressing.

This gets even worse when you realise that this theoretical distribution only works if heals and dps can be used concurrently. The moment when it is not an 'and' but an 'or' situation you are looking at a very lightweight cleric or a very lightweight wizard and not at a hybrid.
Which of course is why some have been argueing that druids should have 75 to 80pct of the cleric heals and 75 to 80pct of wizard dps, as long as they have to choose which of the two sides to use at any given moment.
Right now in raw heal power druids are close to the stated target for clerics (though they still suffer the double penalty of both lower heal output and greater inefficiency) but we are unfortunately so far behind wizard dps that it is not even laughable anymore (according to the parse it is 35pct I think?).
Druid dps seems to be balanced not against dps classes but against clerics (i.e. we do some 30pct less heals and some 30pct more dps).

And yes, if clerics leave the game because it is boring (or thankless?) being one, forcing other classes into that same role does not seem to be a safe bet at boosting healer numbers in the long run ..


Eri

That parse is awesome, my guild doesnt see numbers anywhere near that (we are half way through solteris). I guess its only a minute and a half in duration but still pretty impressive.

100 seconds to kill the orc? Is that 1 add wave?

I think we had a NO add fight with him once, but I wasn't there.

It's funny because we're a guild that's been known for hard and heavy DPS; it wasn't until we hit Solteris (a DPS dependent zone) that it really benefitted us like it is. We jumped from almost the 40's in rank to #15 serverwide when we killed the 2 Gods event.

Anyone know the plans for a new class correspondent? I'd have done it 2 years ago, but I don't have anywhere near the time I did then.

Anyone know the plans for a new class correspondent? I'd have done it 2 years ago, but I don't have anywhere near the time I did then.

Five Classes are without CCs atm, Clerics, Beastlords, Bards, Monks and Druids. I no longer have access to the CC forums, but I still do talk to the other CCs and have yet to hear anything about Zatoria's plans, if any. She last told the CCs changes would be occurring early December, and March is now fast approaching.

Truthfully I found the best way to get answers as a CC, is to totally ignore going through Zatoria and strike up conversations with the correct Developer depending on the issue I wanted addressed. I found this worked far better because I actually 'got' answers, even if the answer was "I don't know right now" rather then getting nothing back.

The CC program is handled by the community team, not the Dev team, so the Dev team has very little, if any, say in the CC program. This is why the system breaks down for months at a time.

I double checked and made sure Nodyin had links to the AA threads, and he had a few other questions which I answered and he said he'd look into things. I can't speak for what Prathun is working on because January has been very busy for me and the bulk of my free time is now on Weekends - which are the days the Dev team has off.

If and when a new CC is chosen, they are likely going to have to do similar unless large changes in how the CC program works are instated.

I just don't have the time to focus on it like I once did, my new job is working out well, but I clock in anywhere from 24 to 32 hours in the first 3 days of the week and that leaves room for eating, and sleeping a few hours before starting the next shift, heh.

While a CC program which actually works would be best, the best thing anyone can do (and it's more apt to yield results) is to PM the Dev in charge of the question you have. Certain devs are more apt to reply. Prathun rarely replies, while Nodyin and Rashere tend to. /shrug They will either say yes, no, or we need to discuss it more. If they say no, don't pester them right off, go back to it later Annoying them isn't going to help anything and they don't technically -have- to reply to you. Politness works well.

-Fenier

I really miss the old chat channel that we all had with the dev team in it.

Talking live about bugs and issues and having devs like Prathun jump on and actually watch "it" happen live was fantastic.

The time to resolution was very fast in those days.