View Full Forums : SoD will they get me again?


Saum02
09-15-2008, 01:36 PM
So its almost time for the new expansion to hit the streets. In less than 6 weeks we will all be busy leveling up to 85. Ginding New AA and exploring New zones for the first time ! I for one am hopefull again that we will find some sort of saving grace in this expansion for our class, something that makes us defined and group worthy again. So with that thought in mind I decided i would put my hopes down for the new expansion and see who thinks im frigging nuts and who has similiar hopes !


AA's

Storm Strike
Im hoping we get a few new ranks in storm strike. This is probably my favorite AA we have recieved in quite some time. Its not over powered and is alot of fun

Heal strike
i know this is wishfull thinking, but i would love a AA similiar to storm strike that does a little heal. Use the same mechanic as stormstrike. let it crit and make the max possible heal in the 2K area. that wouldnt be overpowered IMHO. but would be nice for heals in a pinch and for topping off tanks after a fight.

SCM
I sure wouldnt mind seeing a couple new levels added to this. This might go along way to compensating for the expensive mana cost of our healing spells

Charm AA
If they are going to force us to solo then please give us an AA that decreases the chance charm will break. Personally I dont charm kite very often, but if they would give Charm classes "enchanters included" this ability it would deff help out.

Spells

Heals
Please, please, please allow us to heal more efficiantly. Im not saying cleric level of heals. but it would be nice to be effective healing in places such as Crys without having the group stop every 5 mins while you med up. We just need a little boost is all im asking :)

Charms
Triple the mana cost, I dont care !! just make it last longer & be more consistant darn it !

DPS
It would be nice to see a few quicker casting DPS spells. While im not unhappy with the DPS level we put out. we sure do put it out SLOWLY. drop 1 sec off our cast times would be helpfull. bringing most spells from a modified 4 seconds down to 3 seconds.


Content
How about some class specific solo instances? It would be alot of fun IMHO.

How about outdoor content where druids are needed. It seems every major group area for high end content over the last few expansions have been indoors :( this makes me a Sad druid.


Anyway As the dawn of a new expansion is upon us. I am as always hopefull. On the other hand my wife is already preparing for the inevitable screaming the comes from the computer room when the NDA is lifted.

See ya in Game

Saumey

Woodelfous
09-16-2008, 04:14 AM
Fixed white wolf plz.

Tanom
09-16-2008, 10:55 AM
What is wrong with it?

Saum02
09-16-2008, 12:16 PM
duration is way to short :)

Tanom
09-16-2008, 01:24 PM
Hah that was intended.

I do agree however it is too short

Vekx
09-16-2008, 05:55 PM
DPS
It would be nice to see a few quicker casting DPS spells. While im not unhappy with the DPS level we put out. we sure do put it out SLOWLY. drop 1 sec off our cast times would be helpfull. bringing most spells from a modified 4 seconds down to 3 seconds.

No matter if in group or raid, the mob is usually dead before I can get off a nuke. Especially since to make it land I have to cast a debuff first.

Manlaen
09-20-2008, 01:33 PM
I think debuffing is the biggest problem facing the class at the moment.

All I would like to see is instead of them just doing a cut and paste of the cold atk debuff (which I think is what is being done) that they give a spell similar to Winter's Flame. A double attack debuff and hate increase with maybe a -10 or -20 check the debuffs so it will usually land on group mobs but tougher content will still require resist debuffing. The hate increase would offset the bonus of it all being in one spell instead of the current state of casting 3 spells to attack debuff.

Erianaiel
09-23-2008, 04:32 AM
I think debuffing is the biggest problem facing the class at the moment.

All I would like to see is instead of them just doing a cut and paste of the cold atk debuff (which I think is what is being done) that they give a spell similar to Winter's Flame. A double attack debuff and hate increase with maybe a -10 or -20 check the debuffs so it will usually land on group mobs but tougher content will still require resist debuffing. The hate increase would offset the bonus of it all being in one spell instead of the current state of casting 3 spells to attack debuff.

Actually, I would oppose such an idea. No other debuffing class is forced to put up with such limitations, especially not when that debuffing is considered essential to the functioning of the class. E.g. Shamen do not have to cast three spells just to slow a monster. The developers have stated they see our ATK debuff as the equivalent of a Shaman's slow, to the extent of having some areas designed specifically so that ATK debuffing is more effective than slowing. The fact that we need three or four spells to get an effect similar to a heavily partially resisted slow just makes the whole thing yet another meaningless developer gimmick that does not really help the class. Many Druids, if they even bother with ATK debuffing stick with Hand of Ro and leave it at that, realising only half the potential debuffing because of this unwieldy (and in many cases plain silly due to the speed with which monsters go down against an average group) mechanism.
The big disadvantage of ATK debuffs is that its effect is dependent on the tank's AC and that is enough of a disadvantage already. We do not have to offer the developers to accept even more disadvantages just to get something halfway functional.

The real problem is that due to the see-sawing nature of Druid spell design throughout the expansions the only way to really solve most of the issues is by going back through the spell list and reshape them into something coherent. Something the developers are unwilling to spend the time and resources on, and thus we are staying stuck with abandoned concepts, half baked ideas and spell lines that did not keep up with the rest of the game.


Eri

Manlaen
09-23-2008, 07:39 AM
I'm not sure what you mean. You oppose the idea of having a 1 spell attack debuff but then talk about how worthless it is to have to cast three spells now.

Erianaiel
09-24-2008, 05:23 AM
I'm not sure what you mean. You oppose the idea of having a 1 spell attack debuff but then talk about how worthless it is to have to cast three spells now.

I oppose the idea of having to have some 'negatives' on that single ATK debuff. We are supposed to put all debuffs on the monster, as per developer statement that the ATK debuff is integral part of the Druid's healing ability, so it should be as functional as similar debuffs for other classes.
Right now it isn't and -that- should be fixed. Adding additional restrictions on the spell is unreasonable and makes it as useless as the current situation is. Players still stick with using Hand of Ro (if that) as the best debuff we have.


Eri

oakdad
09-28-2008, 06:55 PM
How about the wizards get the gate you can not take the guild hall portal to please.

Manlaen
09-28-2008, 11:23 PM
I oppose the idea of having to have some 'negatives' on that single ATK debuff. We are supposed to put all debuffs on the monster, as per developer statement that the ATK debuff is integral part of the Druid's healing ability, so it should be as functional as similar debuffs for other classes.
Right now it isn't and -that- should be fixed. Adding additional restrictions on the spell is unreasonable and makes it as useless as the current situation is. Players still stick with using Hand of Ro (if that) as the best debuff we have.


Eri

If they wanted druids to atk debuff with out negatives we'd have a single spell that debuffs for 500 with a chromatic resist check but I'm guessing that's never going to happen just like they're never going to give shammys a slow that's unresistable or clerics a rune that absorbs 100k damage before dropping.
If you have a suggestion that could feasably be implemented than I'd love to hear it.
Saying that any suggested solution should not have a negative aspect attached shows a lack of understanding of the class balance issues in the game.

evanderx
09-29-2008, 07:45 AM
about time they gave us a stronger pet - boo boo is what, lvl 35? For that matter, how come its a bear... I'm thinking maybe a badger with attitude, something that hits in the low 100's so at least there is some extra dps..

Tanom
09-29-2008, 09:18 AM
Level 55, and think of it as a toy. It was never meant a true pet.

Tuiggi
09-29-2008, 02:15 PM
Please let me quad again! Give me the power to drop four (4) 70+ level, snared mobs. Give me the upgraded power!

jennaoha
09-29-2008, 03:36 PM
I would like a swarm of natrue's guardian aa

Vekx
09-30-2008, 05:53 PM
What about recast timer changes?

It seems to me that if several mobs are pulled to the raid/group, all of them are slowed before my 1st debuff refreshes.

Elric91
10-01-2008, 02:34 PM
The developers have stated they see our ATK debuff as the equivalent of a Shaman's slow, to the extent of having some areas designed specifically so that ATK debuffing is more effective than slowing.
Personally, i dis-agree COMPLETELY that our debuffs will rival shaman slowing. I have had this discussion with Fenier, and my data might not be based on parses and the like, but i have been playing my druid consistantly for 5 years, and my data is in hardcore gaming experience.

Lets use an in game example.

I was trying to solo Animist Yeoh in Eldarr Forest for the Marble Band of the Thex House for my Ranger.

This was maybe a week or two ago. I have 2600 ac as a druid, 2100 aa's, all my gear is way over the 300 hp/mana range, I have max avoidance on my gear, and simply put, I could not kill animist Yeoh. I kept losing.

Lets try another named i tried to solo. Muckdiver in Thalasius, The Coral keep. Same story, I would lose repeatedly.

After having this "Our debuffs rivals shaman slow" conversation with Fenier, I went back and tried again, and i died almost as fast, there was not a noticible reduction in the damage i was taking.

I then asked a shaman from my guild to come slow them for me, and I solo'd Animist Yeoh like he was a pre-schooler.

More examples?

Our Group main tank, Veronica, has 3300 ac, and more aa's than me. I am usually the group healer, and one day in steam factory i asked the slower not to slow, so i could try debuffing.

Now, in defense, when i debuffed trash mobs, i could see a noticeable reduction in my healing. But not really on the named mobs, and in either case, it may have been noticable, but with the clumsy 3 debuff system, and the fact that i could not ignore my healing for the 10 or 15 seconds it takes for me to toss the debuffs, makes certain that it definately does not RIVAL slow from a shaman.

And what about adds? If adds are pulled, we have to worry about squeezing 3 debuffs in between chain heals, compared to one spell from a shaman slower. Even if our debuffs numerically and damage wise rivals slow, Which from all my play experience i dont think it does, it would still be sadly lacking on the practical end of things.

In order to say debuffing rivals slow, you need to first be able to understand that druids are being herded more and more, by sony, into the Group Healer mode. Then we need to be realistic. Everquest does not revolve around raid guilds. Not everyone belongs to one, and our spells should not be based on what a raid geared person can do.

If a group kills a mob before a druid debuff lands, then slowing probably is not needed, you are overpowered for the zone. But in a zone where a non raid group is challenged, and a slower or debuffer is needed for the group, Does Druid debuffs rival slow? Heck no. A druid has to worry about squeezing 3 spells in between chain heals from unslowed mobs that quad hit for 2k +, (and lets be real, even raid geared ppl will have trouble taking hits like that), while the shaman lazily tosses a slow on incoming, and not a single combat moment from the mob is unslowed.

Rivals slow? Bah, no way.

For sony to make a statement like that shows that they do not play their own game at all, and that all their data is based on hypothetical scenarios and printouts. If they had any in game play experience, they would know that it simply isn't true.

Now, to anyone reading that says the debuffs are not meant to be used when we are group healers, remember shamans easily slow when they are group healers, and we are talking about our debuffs "Rivaling" slow. Not to mention having 3 debuff spells locked into our spell gems severely ties up our spell lineup, while shamans are able to have one spell gem for slow, and two extra to spare.

Druids are being forced more and more down the "We need you to be the healer" path, and although i have not really read any of the dev's boards, apparently they think our debuffs are use-able in a "we are the group healer" sort of mode. :We are supposed to put all debuffs on the monster, as per developer statement that the ATK debuff is integral part of the Druid's healing ability
So, if this is the case, our class needs an all in one debuff on attacks. Right now, Druids are a distant third behind shamans as healers. Shamans Have a considerable HoT, Healing in places like Crystallos Druids run out of mana pretty fast while the shaman sits there happily cannibalizing themselves to FM, and to top it all off, they laugh themselves silly looking at our clumsy replacement of their god-like slowing abilty that they cast once the puller has the mob heading for the party, leaving them to cast HoT on the tank, and just sit and merrily heal away.

Thats why most groups i have seen would rather have shamans as a healer over a druid. An All-in-One attack debuff might go along way towards re-balanceing our role as healers, and catching us up to the shamans, but based on sony ignoring our cries at every corner and giving us cut and paste versions of the near useless debuffing spells, i dont expect much on their end.

Elric91
10-01-2008, 04:48 PM
Lets now consider slowing effectiveness vs Debuffing effectiveness.

I may be wrong, but based on play experience, perhaps a mobs attack patterns would look like this:

Damage1----------------------Damage1

Damage2 ---------------------Damage2

Damage3 --Pause 1 Second ---Damage3 ----Pause 1 Second

Damage4 ---------------------Damage4

Now there will be misses and blocks in there, but thats basically the formula i think.

So, if we are taking roughly 4 hits per combat pass, maybe a few misses, so lets assume 5k damage per combat pass, with 1 second in between combat passes. Thats roughly 50k damage taken in 10 seconds. Now lets say the mob is slowed by 50% by a shaman after slow reduction is considered. i may be wrong here, so correct me if i am, but wouldnt it look like this?

Damage1 -------------------------Damage1

Damage2 -------------------------Damage2

Damage3 ---Pause 1.5 Seconds ---Damage3 --Pause 1.5 Seconds

Damage4 -------------------------Damage4

Slow does not reduce the number of attacks in a given combat pass, but increases the "pause" the mob must wait before it can make another combat pass. so if the mob gets 4 attacks per combat pass, it still gets 4, but the wait time between passes is higher.

If thats true, then the damage taken in 10 seconds is now roughly 35000, and the slow the shaman tossed prevented 15000 damage over a 10 second parse.

So, for debuffing to be equivilant, we would need to prevent roughly 1500 damage per combat pass. and if each combat pass is comprised of up to 4 hits, thats about 377 less damage we need to see per hit with our debuffs, in order to be compareable.

It may be arguable we see that on trash mobs or named mobs in moderate zones, but as the damage rapidly rises in harder zones like steam factory and the mobs have higher attack ratings, the damage shamans prevent will rise, and the damage we prevent will decline. Try debuffing a raid mob and see if it makes a difference if you do not agree.

Simply put, theres no way our debuffs will prevent as much damage as a shamans slow can in the high lvl zones that a lvl 80 will be grouping in, and try to find time as Group Healer to squeeze in 3 debuffs on unslowed mobs that hit like mack trucks.

Sorrian
10-01-2008, 05:45 PM
I agree the debuffs aren't anywhere near as useful as a slow. From what I gathered from the boards, our atk debuffs were supposed to be more useful for tanks with lower AC and becoming less useful as the their AC grew. I also gathered that druid debuffs are "supposed" to be equivalent to shaman slow. Neither of these seem to be the case. Shaman slows are just as useful to a tank (in terms of taking damage) whether they have 3k AC or 5k AC. This alone proves they aren't equivalent.

I have a 79 warrior that I box. He has 3.3k AC and 21k HP fully buffed. He has max defensive aa's for level 79. I take him out to the Mino fort in DSH to do the stupid brownie faction and I have to heal at least twice for every 1 mino that I kill. When I group with a shaman and have them do nothing but slow I can kill 3 mino's for every 2-3 heals without atk debuffs. When using atk debuffs and slow it is still 3 mino's for every 2-3 heals. There was simply no advantage to using atk debuffs. This was with using every combination of atk debuffs I could think of. Nothing changed. There is no real advantage to reducing a mobs DPS from 800 to 720, considering the length of the fights.

I should add that a year ago I did notice that that our debuffs helped. Now it's not so much.

Tidilthelost
10-05-2008, 04:33 PM
I dont know if it matters or not what we say in here, but what I would like most is some heals that cause less hate such as HOT or group heals.