Tank + chanter + healer

This really came about during Kunark, before that slow wasnt so important, although Crowd control in some dungeons such as guk was.

Id have to say that the most poplular (at least most played class) in EQ is the cleric then probably the druid. Can't kill a named without 3 druids circling around kiting (or however the saying goes). Both classes have excellent heals, and are quite capable of keeping a tank up and group up under a variety of pressing circumstances, and I don't think its unreasonable to expect that 90 perc of groups will have one or the other in the reserved healer spot. (This isnt a bad thing.. there are alot of both classes)

Tank... Melees have had it bad for a long time, and have been waiting on the long fabled retune since ... well yeah im not holding my breath. I personally prefer a hybrid for agro reasons since warriors are really one shot chumps thanks to defensive (changing a little with time armour..go go balancing from the top down) but you need someone to take the punishment for us more delicate classes because its more effecient to heal him... then bounce agro around and heal everyone.

Enchanter... enchanters fill three important roles in most groups... 1) buffs - (kei and haste) 2) crowd control 3) slow

1) buffs - if you make dungeons strip buffs, you make this a perma slot for enchanters.. haste people can get from other classes such as bst and shaman.. but kei.. there really isnt a replacement for it (however clarity potions are an idea - but make them a enchanter made item, maybe not as good as clarity, but will do in a pinch)

2) crowd control - bards do this just as well, in some cases better; and root is probly the most effecient CC method, next to single pulls (go go FD splitting and pac pulling)

3) slow - everyone and their bot can do this.. for the most part.. if you make a group without a slower..thats on you

What makes enchanters so vital, is that we can fill all three of these roles at the same time (where only a bard can do the same) thereby being the most effecient choice in class (we are a force multiplier)

Question is, do you want to sacrifice 2! or more DPS slots to fill what one chanter could do? Perhaps giving a wider range of classes access to DPS abilities could help balance this out while they are subbing in for one of those 3 abilities.

Anyhow.. just my thoughts..

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Question is, do you want to sacrifice 2! or more DPS slots to fill what one chanter could do? Perhaps giving a wider range of classes access to DPS abilities could help balance this out while they are subbing in for one of those 3 abilities.[/quote]

I have a better question... why does everyone have to obsess over the Perfect Group instead of just grabbing some friends, filling in the holes with random LFG people and just going into these dungeons and having fun?

No one knows yet just what these mobs are going to be like, but if the Gamespot article is correct, it will be based upon the abilities the group possesses. Stripping buffs will only ensure that level 45 twinks aren't blowing through dungeons meant to be challenging, but trivialized by level 60+ buffs.

People need to get over this dependancy upon KEI and just learn to live without it. If you have it, great... if not, oh well.

You might be eating crow when LDoN comes out Alyssia. People may need KEI depending on how it's set up. You want it to be for the average joe? Well the average joe isn't going to have FT15 to compensate.

We also don't live in a perfect game world. In a perfect game world everyone would be equal. I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. People don't just 'grab' anyone for a group, they want to be successful and if that means leaving someone out then oh well. If certain classes can't cut it in LDoN they won't be brought along, much like the inane PoJ trials that you like to make an example of. Oh the irony...

The dungeons aren't going to be based on jack either. The technology and AI aren't there to make a dungeon that smart. At best it might adjust the number and level of mobs to the number and level of players. If you think it's going to take into account every last bit of minute detail about each player and go look at everyone's Magelo then you're dreaming.

Try this simple concept:

Mana regeneration in EQ is too slow. It creates downtime of sitting on your arse doing nothing but meditating.

Only one class in eq has a long lasting buff that greatly increases mana regeneration. Kei reduces the downtime. Less downtime = more fun.

People prefer to have fun over not having fun, especially when they are paying for it.

That's not a difficult concept to wrap your uber-hating head around. A druid with no mana is a useless toon, they can do absolutely nothing. Most casting classes are in the same boat. Why would you want to play a game where in order to function as your chosen class you can only actively be doing something 25% of the time, when for the small price of 50pp you can boost that to 50% and spend less time doing nothing.

And yes, as much as enchanters have long tried to deny it, they (and shammies) are nearly perfect as grouping classes go. They bring nearly all the tools needed to keep a group moving briskly and not spending a) time on their ass medding, b) 2-3 times longer killing a mob with their unhasted melee and unkei'd casters, c) less risk of death due to superb crowd control abilities, and d) slow, the most overpowered tool in the game, reduces the output of mob damage by 70-75% and thus reducing the amount of mana needed to heal everyone engaged in it, resulting in an even more efficient group. That's all leaving out the possibility of charming pets for added damage, since that's mildly situational and high maintenance anyway.

Trust me, I've considered playing an enchanter, but I've never been able to target things well with my mouse (I play exclusively with the keyboard), and my system is often too laggy on dialup to be able to react instantly the way the best enchanters seem to. I have great respect for those who play the class well.

Tia

You'd think KEI is the only mana regen in the game the way some people carry on about it.

there are other ways to compensate for lack of kei.
firstly Bot9 is half a kei, also having a sham instea of ench is 5 % better slow, 700+? hp more on main tank, so cheals become more efficient and less damage is taken by tank. Just having a really good tank can take away the need for slow, having many dps means fights are short / downtime low. Many combinations can be 'fun' and i find even with some downtime the more unorthodox groups tend to be more fun...
ever seen a druid main tank plane of earth? :p

<---- Regular unintentional MT in poe :D

gotta push that agro edge

Ok I read the first post once, and skimmed it again.

Please show me where it mentions LDoN. You guys are so stuck on the same points, you are responding without reading the post. It's like you are on autopilot.

Q) Where is the best place to level?
A) LDoN should have buffs stripped.

Q) What color is the sky in Time?
A) LDoN is not going to be fair to the casual gamer.

Q) Who's on first?
A) KEI ruined the game, and you should not have in, in, LDoN.

Q) Who's the short stop?
A) No, Who is on first, but I will tell you the name of our short stop....

[quote[if you make dungeons strip buffs, you make this a perma slot for enchanters[/quote]

That line. The chanter in question is one of those people that seem to think a chanter is absolutely required for a dungeon that strips buffs. Another advocate for the "Perfect Group".

*shrugs* I've tried changing peoples minds about groups, but so many people just have to have certain classes or they chicken out. It's damned annoying to have some friends grouped together and then grab some LFG people and they leave because we didn't have a cleric as the healer... or a chanter for haste/slows.

It just pisses me off when people pass over perfectly good players, just because they're not class.x or class.y *shrugs*. One of the reasons I hate the stupid concept of the "Holy Trinity" of groups and never really believed in it.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have a better question... why does everyone have to obsess over the Perfect Group instead of just grabbing some friends, filling in the holes with random LFG people and just going into these dungeons and having fun?[/quote]

Well for me, doing something with a gimp group when I could be getting xp two or three times faster with a good group isnt much fun.

Being as efficient as possible and crushing all before me in a wave of destructive power is fun for me, or as fun as an xp group can get.

Grouping with 4 clerics and a paladin and taking half an eternity to kill a mob makes me grind my teeth in frustration. I would generally rather log off than play in a slow, inefficient group but thats just the way I like to play.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
<strong>if you make dungeons strip buffs, you make this a perma slot for enchanters</strong>

That line. The chanter in question is one of those people that seem to think a chanter is absolutely required for a dungeon that strips buffs. Another advocate for the "Perfect Group".
[/quote]
She's not advocating the perfect group. She's making a prediction about grouping preferences.

It's naive to think people would give up their buffs without a fight. If taking an enchanter means you keep your KEI, people will fall over themselves to group chanters.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That line. The chanter in question is one of those people that seem to think a chanter is absolutely required for a dungeon that strips buffs. Another advocate for the "Perfect Group".[/quote]

It is the great conspiracy... now that we've addicted you to KEI, there is nothing you can do without us.

On a serious note, enchanters are a utility class just like bards, we get groups because not only can we slow, we can cast <strong>CRACK</strong> and do a bit of crowd control. Get KEI before you go spelunking, encourage SoE to implement better clarity potions, maybe something like ultima avatar series, pools that if you stand in or near can recover your wounds or mana faster. Lots of options here.

Druids and maybe wizards, are the masters of the outdoor zones that allow kiting, long range killing and all that evil stuff. Slap up a few walls you can't cast through, put in some cobwebs and a hellacious train, and make the exit on the other side and you have just entered the realm of the enchanter.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You'd think KEI is the only mana regen in the game the way some people carry on about it.[/quote]

That pretty much sums up my thoughts too.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>however clarity potions are an idea - but make them a enchanter made item[/quote]


..errr why?

Chanters already have massive advantages in most tradeskills and now you want to tread on a class specific one too? You'll be telling us next you need the money!!

Hmmm...if there were high regen areas (maybe a permanent song or something?) with one-way walls such that once you enter, regen, and go out to fight some more, you won't be able to re-enter...

How linear do you think these dungeons will be anyway?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well for me, doing something with a gimp group when I could be getting xp two or three times faster with a good group isnt much fun.[/quote]

"Gimp group"... that term sets my teeth on edge. Maybe it's from the days I was a pre-level 56 cleric and only had a 90% res and someone called it a "gimp res".

Nothing personal but it's sounds like someone that won't ride with a friend in an old car because they could get in this new fancy car with a stranger and get there 2 minutes faster. "Sorry pal, that's a gimp car".

I'll go watch this TV program at home alone on my 56" plasma screen TV rather than watch it with my friends on a 27" television because they've got a "gimp tv".

Hope you're not that way in real life.

<strong>How linear do you think these dungeons will be anyway?</strong>


Very.

i dunno if u guys do this yourself (altho i do encourage you to try)

me (65 druid) , a 65 war and a 65 shaman, Group up on server up and Go after Named dragon such as Severlious, woushi, Talendor, gore (altho hardest), Kolorek`dar, Its a great way to Learn group experiance, And a good way to make cash. never once was the tank close to dieing with the new heals, Even got a few dots and nukes off (each were 9-12 minute fights, not including pain in the ass adds in Skyfire talendor).

It's true, people need to be more flexible with their grouping. But within reason. While the range of good groups is wider than most people usually consider, there is also such a thing as a bad grouping.

A few things to consider...

The average shaman without KEI has more mana than the average enchanter with KEI. He can use that extra mana for oh, I don't know, DPS maybe?

The shaman slow is a higher percentage than the enchanter's, but haste is capped so the enchanter haste isn't really any faster for people with a good haste cloak or belt.

The average necro doesn't even want clarity, he can regen mana better with his own spells.

Replacing the enchanter with a monk (for example) will actually increase the DPS in some groups. Some people will have to do without haste (unless their weapon procs)... but three unhasted melee can do more damage than two hasted melee.

now...

Doesn't anyone remember back in Velious, when Velks Lab was the place to be below 60? Back then we fought low-blue mobs for xp instead of even-cons. Many groups would choose a melee class instead of an enchanter because it was so easy for the clerics to keep up with heals. Slow was simply not needed, and clerics did not run out of mana. In PoP we have mobs hitting so hard that the clerics can't keep up without slow, but if any of the LDoN zones are more like Velks than PoV, people will again want more DPS and less support classes.

Or remember six months ago, doing the execution trial in PoJ? DPS was the key because it was a timed event, and many groups found it was easier without an enchanter... or if they did bring an enchanter they asked him to cast nukes rather than slows. There are other types of timed events too... for example an area could have a 3-minute respawn. Or a mob could cast a huge unresistable AE every 30 seconds so you need to kill it really fast... I remember actually asking clerics to nuke instead of heal on Chardok Queen fights. Or a mob could spawn an add every 30 seconds during the fight, like that big spider in PoN used to do. If any of the LDoN dungeons include those types of tricks, you might very well see people leaving out support classes like enchanters and even clerics in favor of wizards/rogues, just like they sometimes did in the trials.

I sometimes think people get too used to PoP and forget what it was like to fight hordes of low-blues instead of single-pulls of even cons.

Gimp group, gimp group, gimp group! Take that Panamah! :p *goes to find a chalkboard to drag his nails across*

*drags Autumn10 off to the doggy groomer for a nail clipping, and a nice poodle cut since we're there*

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The shaman slow is a higher percentage than the enchanter's, but haste is capped so the enchanter haste isn't really any faster for people with a good haste cloak or belt.
[/quote]
Small inaccuracy.

Lets see... going from Memory now. I don't know for sure what the best haste item in the game is now, but I'd say average haste items are around 40%. Rogue Epic gives 40% haste. SoV is 68%. That takes rogues up to their haste cap or real close. Rogues can be hasted up to 105 or 110, forget which. SoV also increases Dex, Attack and AGI.

Shammies best haste is Swift like the wind gets you 60% which doesn't take rogues to their haste cap. Doesn't give any other stat boost. So there's a difference. Even enough of a difference that I can feel it in playing.

Min/maxer's like GimpGroupMan will always want the enchanter. But really, I'd take either.

You're right about enchanters and their DPS though. Except now they have good charms and they can contribute majorly to DPS. Shammies are pretty weak on DPS unless you have long, long fights for dots to take effect and mobs without insane resistances to poison and disease.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It's true, people need to be more flexible with their grouping. But within reason. While the range of good groups is wider than most people usually consider, there is also such a thing as a bad grouping.[/quote]
No one can require that other players be more flexible in their play style. Not you, not me, not the developers. You can't dictate how someone else will play. You might get a few to listen to you but the majority will blow you off. The reason that players play that was is because classes aren't balanced and they naturally gravitate to the best combiations.

The problem isn't that they gravitate to the best combinations, it's that the difference in superiorty of certian combinations is so far ahead of other's that they are not willing to even contemplate replacing with the next choise down because it's so much less optimal than the best choise. I.E. The class balalance is out of whack.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
The problem isn't that they gravitate to the best combinations, it's that the difference in superiorty of certian combinations is so far ahead of other's that they are not willing to even contemplate replacing with the next choise down because it's so much less optimal than the best choise. I.E. The class balalance is out of whack.
[/quote]

I think this is already less true than it was, now exp is not as unbalanced as it was between PoP and non-PoP zones.

PoP zones are in many ways good, but they are all fundamentally similar - high-DPS single-pullable non-undead mobs, outdoors, no traps or locks, etc. For that single situation, obviously a single group structure will be optimal, especially given that most people will have more experience of playing that way.

Veksar and droga already add a bit of diversity, if LDoN has many more diverse zone types, then there will be a lot more variation in what types of groups work best.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surpised to find that this time we get all zones being moderate-DPS CC-required undead mobs, indoors with many traps and locks. Or else one sub-zone of the 40 becomes 'the one to do', and noone ever touches the other 39.

Soru

I agree with Batou. You're never going to get people to change their minds unless you actually balance the classes once and for all. That's the only way to change people's perceptions and attitudes about classes on a grand scale.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>why does everyone have to obsess over the Perfect Group [/quote]

Because the majority of players are unimaginative and love repitition. If it ain't in an online guide they don't do it.

For example, look at the crowds at the zones mentioned in every classes "leveling" guides such as PC or Echo Caverns. Camped to high heaven. Then travel to Unrest, Kurns, Dalnir, Befallen, Najena, mistmoor, etc and find maybe 3-5 players level spread too far to even group (on Prexus no less, one of the most crowded servers).

Equal or better exp bonuses, better loot, and NO players. Go figure. Its not like its hard to get anywhere any more.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Lets see... going from Memory now. I don't know for sure what the best haste item in the game is now, but I'd say average haste items are around 40%. Rogue Epic gives 40% haste. SoV is 68%. That takes rogues up to their haste cap or real close. Rogues can be hasted up to 105 or 110, forget which. SoV also increases Dex, Attack and AGI.[/quote]

That is still open to debate. Many, many people believe that the haste cap is 100%, and anything over that is just due to rounding errors. There's no real proof that I've seen that shows someone with 105% worth of haste (not including overhaste) does more damage than someone with 100% haste. Then add that shamans provide a huge number of stat, hp, and atk buffage, and the amount that SoV adds to stats is negligable.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Nothing personal but it's sounds like someone that won't ride with a friend in an old car because they could get in this new fancy car with a stranger and get there 2 minutes faster. "Sorry pal, that's a gimp car".[/quote]

A more accurate analogy would be someone who chooses to ride with a friend in a new lexus (max speed 70mph, comfortable, relaxing) versus a friend with a 25 year old Pinto (max speed 35mph, seats that have springs sticking out of them, no ac, and likely you'll have to change a blown tire 3 times on the trip) for a 3-4 hour trip. Hell yeah, you'd want to ride in the lexus. Yeah, the trip in the pinto might be amusing... two years later when you're telling the story maybe.

Berfert

I think SOE themselves revealed the data on the haste cap. I'm not going digging for it though, but it's likely on Caster's Realm in their archives.

Frankly, I don't dump my friends based on what car they drive or class they play.

Most people wouldn't...but pickup groups with strangers are another story.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> I think SOE themselves revealed the data on the haste cap[/quote]

Couldn't find it on castersrealm. Never heard of VI or SoE releasing any such info, and don't believe they ever did.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Frankly, I don't dump my friends based on what car they drive or class they play[/quote]

Neither do I, but I'll generally try to choose the better option when it comes to two friends. Its just stupid to choose a rogue when you need healing... or a cleric when you need mezzing... or a paladin when you need dps... assuming another friend who fills the role better is also available.

When it comes to pickup groups, I'd rather wait for a better fit to the role to come along than take a random person that doesn't fit it.

Berfert

btw... Other then reducing downtime... why do you think kei is important??

Sure it will be nice.. But without spawns, the enchanters crowd control will be more useful then mana regen. Not that you wouldn't use it.... but really..

we can't fight without kei...sigh...

without spawns... Making it to the end of a dungeon is basically going to be making each room / encounter doable without triggering the next...

Enchanters will be on the top of everyones list for mez.... Sure it's nice to reduce downtime... but thats it. It only reduces downtime.

So if you can single pull (pretend) then making it to the end of the dungeon is only if you are able to make it through each fight without people dying... then fully medding for the next.

If you removed the enchanter... and added any other class. You probably could drop a single mob faster and with more remaining mana then if the enchanter was in the group with kei.... So for that single fight... A wizard would probably be more useful.

But... where will the enchanter be really really useful! Crowd Control! This is where the whole dungeon adventure will be make or break (assuming that everyone playing has enought time and doesn't have to log before they get to the end).

Who else can CC as well / or almost as good as an Enchanter?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>Lilwolf said...</strong>Who else can CC as well / or almost as good as an Enchanter? [[/quote]

A bard specially for 4 or less targets

Take a well skilled Monk with you and you won't need crowd control...

or any of the half dozen classes with the lull line (unless that gets nerfed or sidestepped for LDoN).

Soru

except the harmony casters (druids and rangers), cause this spell is outdoor only :/

<strong>A bard specially for 4 or less targets</strong>

Ouch...

4 mobs beating on you for 1 pulse...
3 mobs beating on you for 2 pulses...
2 mobs beating on you for 3 pulses...

:(

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>No one can require that other players be more flexible in their play style. [/quote]

I've been playing the "low end game" on Prexus lately. Under 35, limited selection of players to group with, and totally empty old world and kunark dungeons. Unrest, Mistmoor, or Upper Guk are massively more difficult if you are the ONLY 5 or 6 players in zone.

I think that environment mimics what LDoN will be like.

I think that environment re-enforces the "Trinity". If I am dependent solely on 6 players to deal with anything, I want as much duplication of function as possible, as much healing as possible, and classes that can fill many roles: Enchanter, Bard, Druid, Cleric, Necro, Pally for example.

Gives me the following:

3 snarers, multiple rooters
5 classes with healing ability
Rez and summon corpse
Evac
3 mana regen classes
4 stunners
3 nukers
4 dotters
1.5 tanks
2 pets (plus up to 3 charmers)
1 lockpicker
1 FD puller
2 stacking slowers
2 stacking hasters
2 crowd control classes

Basically covers every aspect of the game, usually in duplicate. When you have only yourselves to rely on, specialists can be a real hassle.

can you say one chanter thats full of her/himself?
Groups dont need a chanter and to scarafacing 2 or more dps spots... Shammy and Bard can do exactly same thing as chanter just fine for xp groups ei slow haste and CC and in some cases you can just hang out with friends and totaly forget about stuck up ppl who think they better then others...

Well, reading the original post, I have to say this is a troll but anyway.

First, warriors have had problems holding and keeping agro which goes way back. Warriors are the most equipment dependent class(rogs and monks too) in the game. Also, verant wants warriors to be gimp in the taunt area ... for some reason....

Anyway, I prefer an enchanter or bard in the cc/mez/mana slot. Its a hassle to ask members to get kei or what happens if someone dies... That said, after an enchanter see's one of my pulls... well they generally leave the group due to being scared of my pulling skeels.

In any case, my warrior can double or triple tank slowed mobs in pov... or tank an unslowed mob. It takes 2x as many heals but it is still doable.

So, why did you post? to Troll? I had posted suggestions about improving the druid class by giving druids a slow and haste but that leaves mana production kinda out... well potg/bot9...

Finally, the holy trinity groups are "safe" and depending on your tank, you may need "safe" to xp in more difficult zones.

<em>First, warriors have had problems holding and keeping agro which goes way back.</em>

Considering the fact that Druids steal agro(with pride), usually at half(or more) mana, from a tank...

I really don't think you will have any disagreement here.

Warrior agro is borked.

/shrug




fix it

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In any case, my warrior can double or triple tank slowed mobs in pov... or tank an unslowed mob. It takes 2x as many heals but it is still doable.[/quote]

In a vaccuum maybe. I doubt you hold aggro on all three while the mobs are being slowed.

Also, I don't see why ya think the chanter was trolling. Despite personal beliefs/delusions, a large number of casters want KEI because they have experienced the difference with having and not having.

For my chanter, I hope buffs are stripped. For my druid, I won't buy the expansion for that account if buffs are stripped because it will be a cleric's dream come true.

I do find it interesting that everyone is so sensitive to protecting the cleric hit point buffs and rez monopoly, yet are so eager to peel away and distribute the chanters' mana regen. They are both beneficiaries of the Kunark era holy trinity and the cleric has actually enjoyed their prominance even to pesent time, but the chanter doesn't enjoy the reverence that so many bestow upon the clerics. Is it because everyone believes all chanters were soloing "minis", that we fear being black balled for rezzes by the cleric community or feel gratitude to the clerics for the rezzes despite the reality that we receive assistance and return to all other classes in one way or another? I guess I just don't understand the jealousy and anger towards the chanters in an environment where clerics are treated like sacred cows.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In a vaccuum maybe. I doubt you hold aggro on all three while the mobs are being slowed.[/quote]

Root.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I do find it interesting that everyone is so sensitive to protecting the cleric hit point buffs and rez monopoly[/quote]

Not quite this bad for HP buffs. In case you never noticed:
Paladin > Cleric
Druid + BST/Shaman = Cleric (is close)

Paladins are better Max HP buffers than Clerics. In any set of players without either Clerics or Paladins, adding a Paladin will increase max hps more than adding a Cleric.

And, as an aside:
BST > Shaman
at buffing Sta/HP. BST doesn't stack as well with Paladins however.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Not quite this bad for HP buffs. In case you never noticed:
Paladin > Cleric[/quote]
While I have been aware of the Paladin hit point buffs, I have never noticed because I've never been in a situation where the pally volunteers to symbol except for once and it was a level 62 pally at the time. I never thought though that a 62 pally could buff for more hit points than a 62 cleric and I also thought Nine was required for this to be true at 65.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Root.[/quote]
Yeah. I'm sure that was inherent in his comments. :lol: