Does anyone really consistently use DoT spells over DD spells, in any situation other than Root-Dotting (which is horribly slow without Enhanced/Viscid Roots)? Even while I root dot, I just click epic once, maybe a sporecaller click, then chain nuke (usually Ancient Starfire of Ro since it's the most efficient atm) and I have Viscid Roots & Ornate Legs so root isn't that much of a nuisance.

But seriously, why would druids use their dots, ever? I just simply cannot justify it. I have Boots of the Wind (20% mana pres) for all detrimental spells, Umbracite Hoop for cold nukes, Ceramic Burner for fire/destroy nukes, and <strong>Miserable Bauble for burning affliction</strong>. Chain nuking is more MANA EFFICIENT than DoTing. Even if I only had 10-15% mana pres, I wouldn't DoT because it's so bloody slow! There's simply no reason to dot; I thought DoTs were supposed to have -much- superior mana efficiency than Direct Damage spells, since they take time to work and PRODUCE MORE AGRO? Also, to add onto that, I'm specialized in Evocation, so I'm saving a lot more mana by nuking than conjuring swarms, and I can consistently crit nuke (SCF3/FoM3) .

The only cases I can see a druid using Damage-over-Time spells is if he or she is fighting an extremely resistant mob, so that the -100 mr resist mod on the swarm lines is useful, but even so, you could Hand of Ro or Sunder the mob's FR and nuke. What's the point?

If you have the time clicky DOT or the Marr clicky DOT, then DOTting can be very good, otherwise charming and quadding are probably your best bet.

Ancient Starfire of Ro:
. instant, 1175 damage
. 1298.375 average damage post Ceramic Burner
. 1427.625 average damage post SCF3 and FoM3 (11% crits I think?)

. 285 mana
. 255.075 average mana post Boots of the Wind
. 195.225 average mana post SCM3 and Spec: Evoc @ 200
Final Efficiency: ~7.313 damage per mana

Swarming Death:
. 6 ticks, 7 damage intervals, 240 damage per interval, 1680 total damage
. 1856.4 average damage post Miserable Bauble

. 350 mana
. 313.25 average mana post Boots of the Wind
. 269.5 average mana post SCM3 and Spec: Conj @ 50 (2.5% savings I think?)
Final Efficiency: ~6.888 damage per mana

Immolation of Ro:
. 10 ticks, 11 damage intervals, 140 damage per interval, 1540 total damage
. 1701.7 average damage post Miserable Bauble

. 320 mana
. 286.4 average mana post Boots of the Wind
. 219.2 average mana post SCM3 and Spec: Evoc @ 200
Final Efficiency: ~7.763 damage per mana

If you don't believe that 6 ticks equates to 7 damage intervals, turn on the damage reporting for dots in game and count them sometime. And I disagree that dots produce more aggro but I have no proof either way so I am not going to argue that point.

Since I've spent long enough doing the math that I'm bored now, I will bring up some last points from my personal situation. I am alteration specialized, dropping nuke efficiency relative to swarming death. I do not have the ancient nuke, further dropping nuke efficiency. I have 15% mana savings on Winter's Storm (Conservation of Solusek), 20% on Summer's Flame (Ornate Gloves), and 25% on dots (affliction efficiency 4). This means that my dots are considerably more efficient than my nukes. This is why a druid would use dots over nukes.

Edit to respond to L1ndara, it's pointless to include click dots since they can be used whether dotting or nuking.

I beg to differ. I DoT all the time. I can stack 5 dots on mob and then med while he slowly melts down. I will also throw in a couple of nukes toward the end. I was able to kill non-stop without any downtime, especially now that Mages have a damage bracer specifically for DoT classes that adds to the DoT damage.

When I chain nuke I always, always have down time medding back up. Grats to you that you have Ancient Starfire of Ro. I do not!

I primarily do my AA grinding in HoH and have tried many different ways to kill. Root/dotting, Aggro-kiting with DC pet, chain nuking or combination dot/nuking.

I am not a numbers cruncher and never will be. I go with my own experiences and to me dotting is just as useful as nuking.

I am specialized in alteration also.

Bolodo
Storm Warden

Yeah.. I can see why an Alteration-specialized druid would use DoTs, but not Evocation's.

I use Immolation of Ro whenever I'm fighting non-fire immune mobs, it's good mana efficiency, it's evocation, and debuffs FR and AC, but still has really nasty agro.

And Lord MM still has yet to drop the druid scimmy for my guild! Argh :/

Btw, thanks Taralon for doing all that math for us :)

I think it's specifically Immolation of Ro that is high aggro, because of the debuff component that seems to cause a large amount of aggro every tick. It is the only dot that has ever gotten me summoned on a tick (and the only thing that has ever gotten me summoned against seru, I might add).

<strong> . 1427.625 average damage post SCF3 and FoM3 (11% crits I think?)</strong>

13% crit. 1451 average damage, 192 mana = 7.56d/m
With time cloak and bard the average damage goes up to 1621.5 or 8.44d/m. Think you can toss the shaman potion on top of that for 8.62d/m! Heh, think wizards break 10d/m with Strike of Solusek. Evil gits, druids had the best fire nuke in the game in Luclin, damn wizards stealing druid powers! :)

<strong>Edit to respond to L1ndara, it's pointless to include click dots since they can be used whether dotting or nuking.</strong>

If you have the better click DOTs, you line up half a dozen mobs and just click your brains out. But yeah, if you're nuking a single mob you may as well toss 'em on then too.

"But seriously, why would druids use their dots, ever? I just simply cannot justify it. I have Boots of the Wind (20% mana pres) for all detrimental spells, Umbracite Hoop for cold nukes, Ceramic Burner for fire/destroy nukes, and Miserable Bauble for burning affliction. Chain nuking is more MANA EFFICIENT than DoTing."

OK, I had a good chuckle reading this. Not that you're wrong, you're not. But you need to add one word to it. "....why would >top-tier/uber/adjective-of-choice< druids...". Many of us will never see the equipment you're talking about, so let's examine it for the rest of us (or at least, some of the rest of us).

The most efficient spells we have are our quadding spells, and I quadded a lot pre-PoP (hunting in the zones myself, not era-wise). But my problem in PoP is, I don't have the mana pool/regen to quad efficiently. Yes, I CAN, but it winds up taking just as long as root/rot, if not longer, with the med kiting and all. I AM working on getting there, cause once I can do it, it will be faster than root/dot, but I'm not there yet. A little more mana pool, a little more mana regen/FT, a little more SCF/FoM, and a faster horse so I can use it while quadding. That should get me there.

OK, next we have charming. Two problems there. I never really learned the ropes, and even more important, we have limited spots to do it, and there is much competition. I can play 2, maybe 3 hours a night. And I get called away for the times there's enough guild members on to do something together. So when I go to my solo spot, I want to be able to jump in without waiting. Fortunately I have a great spot with mobs in my bonus XP range, that can be quaded or rotted, but there are no animals anywhere near (yes it's PoP). And there is NEVER another soul around, except for friends that come to join me there.

So that leaves root/rot. And this is where a horse really shines, because you hardly ever have to move. So there's about an FT18 equivalent boost. Add burning affliction to boost damage by 10% (I'm 61, so still using sub-60 DoTs, my Coldain Military Wristguard still works), and now we're talking more efficient damage than nukes. So for those of us who don't have top of the line equipment, but are hunting in PoP zones, root/rot is a very good way to XP, and more efficient than nuking, until we get some more levels/AAs/equipment/whatever. But combine the fact that DoTs are more efficient than nukes, looking at the base mana numbers, plus the fact that most druids have 2 free DoTs to use, makes root/DoT a pretty efficient way to hunt.

Oh, and I am evocation specced.

Tat

DoT's being more mana effiecient was true back in their hay-day. I think 2 things have reduced that -

1. There are more areas where you can improve DD efficiency compared to DoTs. Both areas have effects (AA/Focus) which can improve mana preservation (although DD has more options, and sometimes greater savings), damage output (again DD's have more options also I don't believe Bard Songs work with DoT's). Also DD's have the Crit factor, which to alot of High AA druids can be a significant amount. If DoT's got the same Focus and AA attentions I believe the arguement could be put back to DoTs being more efficient.

2. Now lets analyse the progression of base mana efficiency of both types of spells from 49+

DD's
Spell: Starfire Scoriae Frost Wildfire Moonfire Ancient Starfire of Ro Summer's Flame Winter's Frost
Level: 49 54 57 59 60 60 64 65
Damage: 612 688 762 1024 1150 1175 1400 1550
Mana: 250 250 250 320 320 285 355 390
DPM: 2.448 2.752 3.048 3.2 3.594 4.122 3.944 3.974

DoT's (including LDoN)
Spell: Breath of Ro Winged Death Vengeance of Nature Immolation of Ro Swarming Death Vengeance of Tunare
Level: 52 53 55 62 63 64
Ticks: 10 9 5 10 6 5
Damage: 1012 (92*11) 1430 (143*10) 1290 (215*6) 1540 (140*11) 1680 (240*7) 1800 (300*6)
Mana: 250 350 340 320 350 355
DPM: 4.048 4.086 3.794 4.812 4.8 5.07


<strong>Analysis</strong> DD spells over the space of 15 levels have gone from 2.448 to 3.974 DPM (4.122 for Ancient) that's an increase of 62% (68% for Ancient). In the case of DoT's Vengence of Nature actually takes a step backwards, but we move from 4.048 to 5.07 DPM (well we will when LDoN arrives) that's an increase of only 25%.

Now you can see why DoT's lose their strengths at the highest level. So the question I guess is "What <strong>DO</strong> DoT's offer these days?" I think Sony needs to go back and have a very long hard look at this. DoT's were more mana efficient becuase of the fact it took time to do the damage (they ever said it themselves), so why now are DD's more efficient.
If anything the DoT's should be more efficient the higher you go. For DoT's to keep their place this is how the line should look

Mana inprovement
DoT's (including LDoN)
Spell: Breath of Ro Winged Death Vengeance of Nature Immolation of Ro Swarming Death Vengeance of Tunare
Level: 52 53 55 62 63 64
Ticks: 10 9 5 10 6 5
Damage: 1012 (92*11) 1430 (143*10) 1290 (215*6) 1540 (140*11) 1680 (240*7) 1800 (300*6)
Mana:<strong> 250 332 280 265 275 275</strong>
DPM: 4.048 4.3 4.6 5.812 6.1 6.55

Or

Damage Improvement
DoT's (including LDoN)
Spell: Breath of Ro Winged Death Vengeance of Nature Immolation of Ro Swarming Death Vengeance of Tunare
Level: 52 53 55 62 63 64
Ticks: 10 9 5 10 6 5
Damage:<strong> 1012 (92*11) 1510 (151*10) 1560 (260*6) 1870 (170*11) 2135 (305*7) 2310 (385*6)</strong>
Mana: 250 350 340 320 350 355
DPM: 4.048 4.31 4.588 5.844 6.1 6.51


Now that is where I think DoT's should lie. I guess Sony could always nerf DD's :) . But after this exercise I'm just amazed at how inefficient I was really getting, just think in another 10 level DD's will completely over take DoT's all together.

Couple this with the first point of more saving on DD's and maybe they already have.

Nice chart, Geddine. Another one for me to snarf up into my private collection :) .

About DOTs in groups:

From the way I understand Taunt, when it works it puts the taunter on top of the aggro list. When I nuke twice for 2k, after a successful taunt the warrior has gained that 2k aggro.

If I stack dots for 2k, after a successful Taunt, the Warrior has gained 1 DOT tick worth of aggro. More ticks will follow. We've all seen a heavily dotted mob repeatedly turning to you, even after many Taunts.

Lately, it seems that tanks rely less on Taunt and more on aggro generation via spells. But it still somewhat reduces the effectiveness of their aggro-holding tools.

i use dots on named/raid/event/etc. mobs often, as long as there is zero chance they'll need to be mezzed..... for the sole reason that they allow me to add to damage, AND do other things at the same time. only on long fights (or ones where i've a specific duty) do i stick to 'my job' for mana issues, be it spot healing, heal rotation, /assist heals, nukes, rebuffing the dead, crowd control, etc... but for, say, a 1-2 group excursion to kill a mini-boss, yeah, i dot heavily. 500+/tic adds up fast, so you have to watch agro, or be able to take a few swings.

i've 15% detrimental mana pres.
i've 18%(? i think) detrimental casting speed.

it' does't take much mana or time to stack a few dots and carry on with your other duties.

alyn cross
forces unknown

<strong>it' does't take much mana or time to stack a few dots and carry on with your other duties.</strong>

The magic DOTs take about as long to cast as a nuke and do about the same damage, and are no more efficient.

And I think that is exactly what needs to be addressed by Sony L1ndara

<strong> And I think that is exactly what needs to be addressed by Sony L1ndara</strong>

Yeah, get rid of the DOTs. Druids aren't shamans or necros. Necros and shamans had the highest mana regen so got DOTs which limited rate they could deal their damage and innefficient and smalle nukes. Why druids even got DOTs in the first place is something of a mystery, although maybe less of one than why magicians, enchanters and clerics got their even more laughable DOTs.

Well, they can have your DoTs then, but they better not touch mine ;P

Tat

Chalk me up for the non-DoTting club. I don't have Swarming Death yet, but in general my nukes are almost as mana-efficient as my DoTs. (For informational purposes, I generally nuke using Moonfire with a Ceramic Rod of Storms equipped, and SCF1.)

Swarming Death does 1440 points of damage over 7 ticks or so for 350 mana.

I can do nuke damage in that same range of damage for 320 mana. (Max damage using focus, without a crit or bard-song damage amp. is around 1414.)

I generally hunt in a group, so the nuke solution is extremely favorable for me. Almost the same damage/mana ratio. The trade off I run into is that I run the risk of either getting a crit (increased damage/mana) or a resist (decreased or no damage/mana.) But considering the fact that in most grouping situations, a DoT doesn't do it's full damage anyway, that's not a problem for me. (And if I'm willing to spend the mana to debuff FR or CR, I can reduce that risk.)

When I do solo, it's most frequently been with my DoTs. Unlike nukes, there are no partial resists on a DoT. Root/DoT may take longer, but since I can stack multiple DoTs on a mob at once and never worry that it's going to do less than full damage, that's helpful.

I think it's neat that they've tried to shorten DoT time for Swarming Death... but all told, I think DoTs need a bit of an upgrade if they want them to actually be used. A 63 DoT that, in most scenarios I face, is no more mana efficient than my current nuke is not terribly attractive to me.

The problem is, starting with vex thal swarming death does have a significant edge over ancient starfire of ro, mostly due to focus of mediocrity stacking with burning affliction (8.48 dpm versus 6.78 dpm by my calculations, assuming burning affliction, focus of mediocrity, focus of flame, wind of mana, pernicious focus, SCM3, SCF3, FoM3). This wasn't the case until extended affliction type effects were converted to burning affliction, which then stacked with focus of mediocrity and timeburn.

I think this 8.48 to 6.78 is an appropriate ratio, and so it's only people that are not in vex thal or the elementals that need a boost to dots. Maybe the answer is to reintroduce extended affliction focus effects? Focus of mediocrity and timeburn would still remain very useful since they extend detrimental spells that aren't dots, and in the case of focus of mediocrity, beneficial spells all in one effect...