From the LDoN page:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Explore more than 40 diverse dungeons set in 5 new environments.
Experience a new dynamic dungeon system emphasizes personalized encounters reserved for your group.
Enjoy the excitement of "dungeon crawls" that are tailored to your group.
[/quote]

This is nice but who says this isn't just another PoJ style trial, where the actual number of 'instanced dungeons' is limited. It is even possible you will have to 'camp' dungeon entrances and wait till the group inside is wiped or completes the quest.

It could also be like Plane of Nightmare Maze quest or save the forest in PoS etc. etc. Those places are also 'tailored to one raid'.

Somehow I think there is alot of hype right now about instanced dungeons, it would be nice to actually get some information about this.

Is LDoN limited to 40 groups in 5 different environments ?

--Zorx

you're probably right


sony is probably misleeding everyone and having them believe that dungeon X can be visited by any amount of groups at the same time, when all it really is is dungeon Xa Xb Xc Xd Xe Xf Xg and each can only be occupied by one at a time

it most certainly wouldnt surprise me, and knowing their programming, this is probably the closest thing they could do to making personalized dungeons


everyone buys their lovely expansion thinking it will make personalized zones and everyone can fight in them, when really its just like a bunch of rooms with groups waiting their turn to go in

The Maze thing was actually 3 instances, it just never worked very well. It wasn't tailored to anything. It was just the same maze no matter who you brought.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Enjoy the excitement of "dungeon crawls" that are tailored to your group.[/quote]
That kind of tells me that they're supposed to be individual instances or on-demand copies of the dungeons. Better be, that's what everyone is expecting!

Well, I guess we'll see in around 45 days.

<strong>The Maze thing was actually 3 instances, it just never worked very well.</strong>

Actually, they weren't "instances" per se. There were three identical, pre-existing areas in the same zone that you got teleported to. People actually could go there to hunt the handful of reoccurring spawns, regardless of whether the hedge quest was being run.

An "instanced" dungeon does not exist prior to the time the group causes it to be created and enters it. No one else other than the ones in the group creating the dungeon can enter. It vanishes at some point after the group is finished or leaves.

The other details are just that. LDoN instanced dungeons apparently won't be semi-random layouts, unlike Diablo. There will be a variety of dungeons of preset configurations (and yes, we will see spoilers on each configuration soon after release). Like Diablo, though, there won't be any respawning of mobs.

I imagine the difficulty of a particular instance will be adjustable, based either on player choice, or automatically based on player level (and perhaps a few other stats, like AAs).

<strong> Like Diablo, though, there won't be any respawning of mobs. </strong>

Can you quote the source of that info? I somehow completely missed that ever being said.

Over on Graffes, I believe, Absor explained this several times.

There will be more than 40 UNIQUE dungeons with LDON.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Actually, they weren't "instances" per se. [/quote]

/quibble

An instance is a copy. These instances just happen to be pre-existing.

I think we're imagining that the LDoN instanced dungeons will be dynamic instances, rather than static ones. But there is nothing to say that's true. They might just have all the instances pre-existing and up and running on servers. But it would make more sense to create it on the least loaded "instance server".

Only SOE knows for sure!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Over on Graffes, I believe, Absor explained this several times.

There will be more than 40 UNIQUE dungeons with LDON.[/quote]

Based on 5 different enviroments. That means I'm sure Dungeon A, Dungeon B (ie. A backwards), Dungeon C (ie A randomly moved around a bit), Dungeon D (ie C backwards), etc etc.

First, on how the dungeon will be targeted, it sounds like level only...

<hr />
GameSpy: Will the dungeons feature randomly generated elements?
Shawn Lord: Random would not be the proper word to describe it. No content is completely random; we prefer to make certain that all the content is hand-crafted. These dungeons will not be randomly generated from parts, but factors such as the level of the party and the type of adventure that they want to undertake will determine what sort of encounters they have.
<hr />

Second, on the stuff being killed once and not respawning...
<hr />
GameSpy: How are you addressing camping and power-leveling in the new expansion?
Shawn Lord: Only members of your group can access a specific dungeon, and the challenge level of those dungeons is based on the composition of your party. In those dungeons NPCs will not be respawning, once they are killed they stay dead, so camping isn't an option. If you want a new fight, you have to move deeper into the dungeon.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>/quibble

An instance is a copy. These instances just happen to be pre-existing.

I think we're imagining that the LDoN instanced dungeons will be dynamic instances, rather than static ones. But there is nothing to say that's true. They might just have all the instances pre-existing and up and running on servers. But it would make more sense to create it on the least loaded "instance server".

Only SOE knows for sure! [/quote]

/quibble quibble

In object oriented programming terms, when you allocate memory for and construct a new 'object', you create an instance of that object. The process of creating the object is called instantiation. When you instantiate an object, it allocates enough memory from the free system ram to hold the object and then runs the objects consructor.

The programmers are probably refering to creating a new instance of a dungeon object when refering to a instanced dungeon. The programmers would use something like this in C++ which is the language Everquest is written in:

party_dungeon = new DEEPEST_GUK_DUNGEON;
party_dungeon->set_difficulty_level(average_party_level, sceneario_options);
.
.
.
Party goes though dungeon and leaves
.
.
.
delete party_dungeon;

This would allocate the memory to hold the new dungeon at runtime, set the difficulty of the dungeon and then once the players were done remove the dungeon from memory by calling it's destructor and freeing the memory it was using.

Quibble the quibble, quibble. :) Actually not sure you're disagreeing with me or just edumacating folks about object oriented programming.

Generically an instance, not related to any particular programming method:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><programming> An individual object of a certain class.
While a class is just the type definition, an actual usage of
a class is called "instance". Each instance of a class can
have different values for its instance variables, i.e. its
state.
[/quote] I think that's a decent description.

You could have an instance of an integer which isn't dynamically allocated at all.

I'd definitely call the hedge maze instances even though they weren't dynamically created.

If you look at the more traditional use of the word instance it can mean "case" or "example".

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Over on Graffes, I believe, Absor explained this several times.
There will be more than 40 UNIQUE dungeons with LDON.[/quote]

If you check the LDoN page:
everquest.station.sony.com/lostdungeons/dungeons.jsp?page=LDON%20Dungeon%20Index (http://everquest.station.sony.com/lostdungeons/dungeons.jsp?page=LDON%20Dungeon%20Index)

You see there will be only 5 zones, one of them is deepest guk. The patcher downloaded gukc, gukd, guke, ..... I bet we will download 40+ such zones.

This looks like predefined sets (and not tailored towards group). Maybe different difficulty of mobs.

The question is: can 2 or more groups do exactly the same dungeon (personal copy) at same time ?

--Zorx

I'm disagreeing that I belive they will be having it implemented like it was in the hedge maze. We all know it's a terible implementation and quite honsestly, I think it was a hack to compensate for a major bug in the instance engine they were planning on using for PoP that they found at the last minuet. This would explain why the hedge maze has never quite worked right.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you look at the more traditional use of the word instance it can mean "case" or "example". [/quote]
Yes, that is true. However, I doubt that the more traditional use of the worde is the correct one in this case since the term came from the programmers who write the application in C++. It's reasonable to assume they are using the word in context of their enviornment. Programmers tend to use technical jargon with specialized definitions for everything and when you hear a word like instance coming from their lips, it may not mean exactly what the dictonary says hehe.

Just a random thought, but if I rember the maps I saw generated from the zone files of PoP when it first came out, aren't the three hedge mazes slightly different in layout? If so then they aren't copies so aren't an example of an instanced dungeon at all, but rather, alternate dungeons.

*sighs* If you read the post over at Graffe's Absor laid it out pretty clearly...


There are 5 <strong>themes</strong>. Deepst Guk is one of those themes. So far we have 5 zones using the Deepest Guk <strong>theme</strong>. My guess is that each <strong>theme</strong> will have eight <strong>zones</strong> for a total of 40 zones. However, Absor and the LDoN website say there are more than 40 zones... so I guess we'll have to wait and see until launch day just how many zones there are.

Just to confuse the issues......

Is Deepgest Guk one of the MAIN 5 themes or one of the instanced dungeons BASED off of an overall GUK theme?

:)

Well Absors Post on Graffe isn't clear at all
Absor on Graffe:<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I don't know how to speak marketing, but I have been known to translate it on occassion...
This isn't supposed to be at all confusing, so let me state it as straightforward as I can (though I really hate destroying fiction with facts...).
There are 5 dungeon themes. From those 5 themes we've made more than 40 dungeons. Each of those dungeons can be "instanced" and filled with different populations depending on level and the type of adventure.
A[/quote]

Is instance just 1 copy or several copies ? I fear there is only content for around 40 groups at same time. Specially his comment 'fiction with facts' is very bad...

I think we really need an official answer to 'Can more than 200 groups play in LDoN at same time ??' before we pre order LDoN..


--Zorx

I'm pretty sure each zone can be used by more than one group. However, there is mostly likely a limit on how many different instances the servers can handle. I dunno how high that is, but it will have to be pretty high to handle the initial load of people flocking to test it out.

I think Absor's post was pretty damn clear myself. 5 Themes... and they have made over 40 unique geometry zones using those five themes. (Theme consists of textures, mobs, and the overall ambience of the dungeon.)

Optimist: 40 new dungeons each with randomly generated terrain, roaming monsters with varying powers and new uber loot based on who is in the party, their classes, equipment and spells.

Pessimist: 40 new dungeons in 5 different styles with randomly positioned monsters tailored based on level of the party.

Reality: <strong>There are 5 dungeon themes. From those 5 themes we've made more than 40 dungeons. Each of those dungeons can be "instanced" and filled with different populations depending on level and the type of adventure.</strong>

Translation: 8 new dungeons with 5 different wall textures and monster sets which were just lifted from existing dungeons, static spawn with level of the monsters being influenced by average level of the party. Hand-crafted by our volunteer interns. Initial drops will be broken with raid quality loot dropping like candy for the first 2 days for the fortunate few who manage to get it to work but nerfed to non-existance before the patch that lets the majority of players in.

From what I have read this is how I see it working.

zone + spawn table = an adventure
40+ new zones with several spawn tables each = lots of adventures
the 40 zones are spread over 5 themes

Instancing lets a group go on one of those adventures on thier own. Using some method your group is matched up with a zone + spawn table and it's instanced just for you and you go in and have your adventure.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> everyone buys their lovely expansion thinking it will make personalized zones and everyone can fight in them, when really its just like a bunch of rooms with groups waiting their turn to go in [/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Is instance just 1 copy or several copies ? I fear there is only content for around 40 groups at same time. Specially his comment 'fiction with facts' is very bad... [/quote]
I don't think so. This might help your fears. On the LDoN page I saw this:
<strong> Enjoy the excitement of "dungeon crawls" that are tailored to your group. </strong>

Hold your mouse over that line and a popup box shows up saying:
<strong> No more waiting for another group to finish a dungeon! </strong>

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm pretty sure each zone can be used by more than one group. However, there is mostly likely a limit on how many different instances the servers can handle. I dunno how high that is, but it will have to be pretty high to handle the initial load of people flocking to test it out.[/quote]

It really depends on how the coded it. Ideally, if they did it right, it would load balance the servers by picking the server with the lowest CPU/memory/disk load and creating the dungeon instance on that server for the players to zone in to.

The next step down is that all 'deepest guk' dungeons reside on the same server and all instances reside on same server. This is easier to code than the above, but very poor resource utilization.

In the end it's really a matter of how fast the CPU is and how much memory the servers have to determine how many instances can be running at once.

Assuming that they manage to get the instances running so that they perform load balancing as descrbied above, it would really help server performance by allowing servers with little used zones to pick up the computing slack.

Quote by Absor
------------------------------
I don't know how to speak marketing, but I have been known to translate it on occassion...
This isn't supposed to be at all confusing, so let me state it as straightforward as I can (though I really hate destroying fiction with facts...).
There are 5 dungeon themes. From those 5 themes we've made more than 40 dungeons.

Each of those dungeons can be "instanced" and filled with different populations -depending on level- and the type of adventure.
A
------------------------------

"Depending on level" - This sounds like TLC - Trivial Loot Code.

And if the same type of loot or the amount of loot is discourage due to the level of the group that is pretty low thing SoE is pulling.

For instance what if you go into a dungeon set for a group of 45th players they come out with a lot of loot but of average quality in result making that loot not no-drop. But then a group of 65th levels enter the dungeon get a very little good loot but its all no-drop.

I don't doubt SoE would pull that kind of crap. Besides, SoE doomed their expansion the first day after Boardwide news was stickied about the bug results of LDoN.

SoE doesn't even try to advertise during login that they fixed any of the issues with LDoN. God, forbid they admit they messed up to all that log in. Then others might still not buy the expansion out of fear. But if SoE did allow the standards for games they do maybe they might actually have a smooth deployment of an expansion.

The Truth

I'm sorry, Truth, but you didn't make any sense with this last post....

Your right Scirocco but couldn't edit what I wrote above either for some reason.

but the last sentence really should have been.

"But if SoE did -NOT- allow the standards for games they do, maybe they might actually have a smooth deployment of an expansion."

Its amazing what one word can do to the meaning of a sentence.

The Truth

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Optimist: 40 new dungeons each with randomly generated terrain, roaming monsters with varying powers and new uber loot based on who is in the party, their classes, equipment and spells.

Pessimist: 40 new dungeons in 5 different styles with randomly positioned monsters tailored based on level of the party.

Reality: There are 5 dungeon themes. From those 5 themes we've made more than 40 dungeons. Each of those dungeons can be "instanced" and filled with different populations depending on level and the type of adventure.[/quote]

If you read the entire thread for all of Absor's replies at Graffe's, you would have seen this:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Yikes. I don't know a clearer way to explain it.

More than 40 unique dungeons. Those dungeons are divided among 5 themes.

A[/quote]

And further down...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Ok, let's try this.

Ignore instancing. Forget it.

Then reread this:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>More than 40 unique dungeons. Those dungeons are divided among 5[/quote][/quote]

None of that involves any instances of anything at all.

A[/quote]

Seems pretty clear to me there are <strong>over 40</strong> unique geometry zones. These zones have been created using one of five themes. The mob population will vary based upon level and abilties (I hope) and the type of adventure chosen.

<strong>Seems pretty clear to me there are over 40 unique geometry zones.</strong>

They've also said, I think, that it'll take about 90 minutes to 2 hours per dungeon. Dick waving aside that means probably about 40-80ish mobs. I think you're looking at about 30 to 40 mobs to fight down to herb shack or bank in Chardok, about 40 to fight down to Juggs in Sebilis, around 30 average in the wings in the BoT tower. So each of those 40 zones could be about the size of the area we normally clear just to get TO a camp or about the size of the bigger BoT tower wings. i.e. tiny. (90 minutes sounds about right to clear a BoT tower wing with 1 average pickup group?)

And this is why it surprises me that Sony is already trying to get people to pre-order LDoN. We barely know anything about it. We know one of the five themes (although the other 4 have been reasonably guessed), we don't know how the "instancing" will actually work, we don't know how the reward system will work, etc. It'd be like buying a car when they only tell you who makes it and what color it is.

The way I understand it though is that there will be 5 themes. A <span style="text-decoration:underline">theme</span> is just a fancy word to explain why the dungeons will look like. For instance, Solusek A, Solusek B, and Temple of Sol Ro are all pretty much one theme because they all feature fire based mobs, the same wall patterns, and lava.

So, in LDoN there will be 8 <span style="text-decoration:underline">zones</span> per theme. That means the "Deepest Guk" theme will be throughout 8 different zones with froglok mobs and similiar looks.

Each zone will be <span style="text-decoration:underline">instanced</span> so that each group can have their own version of the zone. However, there will be <em>several</em> different instances of a dungeon so that each <span style="text-decoration:underline">zone</span> can be used many different ways. Consider how the Great Divide is normally and how it is during the Ring War. That'd sort of be along the same idea.

Honestly, I don't know why Sony is making it sound so confusing. They should provide examples to better explain how this system is going to work. This is how they end up getting themselves in a lot of trouble. People think Sony means one thing when, in fact, they mean something completely different. Then those people get extremely upset when they realize Sony didn't mean what they thought and they feel they got gypped.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Honestly, I don't know why Sony is making it sound so confusing.[/quote]

Well, you answered this by yourself.

To sell vaporware to customers the first and most important rule is to keep all important specs neboulous.

Look at SWG: Millions of preorderd copies with only a few hard facts. Millions of customers paid to play a beta status product because they trustet Sony.

Imho the only reason for having a preorder button before publishing hard facts on the expansion, is sonys need for some more cash flow in their next quarterly financial report.

I forget where, but I recall a interview where in they said that part of the adventure will be just getting to the NPC to spawn your instance.

(found the quote)

<a href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/everquestlostdungeonsofnorrath/preview_6030604.html"><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>GS: How large of a group can enter the new dungeons? Where will the dungeons be located, and how will you gain access to them?

RP: Groups will have five or six people. There will be entrances scattered around Norrath. Players will receive directions to these newly discovered dungeons when they select their adventure. [/quote]</a>

So...

You log on and /lfg... You finally get a group.
You all decide where to meet someplace... Say Qeynos.
Once your all there you talk to the NPC who sends you to a place outside Mistmoore?
You spend 45-90 minutes fighting.

So... Now what? You have to run the bloody hell back to BFE to get a new "adventure", then run the hell back to someplace else to start all over again?

Atleast with Kunark, SoL, Luclin, PoP you could sit your ass down at the zone in of Seblis/Velks/ME/PoV and wait for a group. Now you have to run all over Norrath?

This is going to be fun & easy how? Especially for the casual crowd. It's still going to suck just as much as always to get a group. Plus, you have the fun of wasting more time getting everyone to the starting NPC, then moving them all to the zone in. Only to have to repeat this all in 45-90 minutes... Anyone want to take bets that the most popular instance will be the one you have to move the least amount of distance from the NPC to the zone in for?

After all the Flag fun of PoP, I love this quote.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>GS: Tell us about the in-game interface for tracking progress through the adventure.
RP: Some of the secrets of the Lost Dungeons of Norrath are not ready to be revealed! [/quote]

Can't wait for the fun of 40 different dungeons to flag? If each dungeon has different types of "adventures" does that mean that we will have to flag 40 x Y (Y being the number of different adventure types.)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Atleast with Kunark, SoL, Luclin, PoP you could sit your ass down at the zone in of Seblis/Velks/ME/PoV and wait for a group. Now you have to run all over Norrath?[/quote]
A side effect of this might be that druids and wizards gain a bit of group desirability. :-)

Reading this quote from the LDoN site:

<strong>Beyond even the lowest depths of Guk, lost Ykeshian ruins wait to be explored.</strong>

That doesn't sound like the entrance is beside Guk. That sounds like the entrance is <em>in</em> Lguk. The expansion is targeted for level 20-65, but the lvl 20's would certainly NOT be visiting Deepest Guk.

I wonder if each Theme is geared towards a particular level range?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Imho the only reason for having a preorder button before publishing hard facts on the expansion, is sonys need for some more cash flow in their next quarterly financial report.[/quote]

Good point. You probably hit the nail on the head.

Cantus, what you said shows you what addicts gamers are. We were hooked long ago and trustingly buy new expansions... hoping, hoping, hoping that THIS next one will be the one that fits my playstyle.

They could put Hack on the CD and tell us the dungeons were 100% randomly generated and we'd trustingly buy it.

You're right, it's about 45 days until launch and they haven't told us much.

Of course, the less they tell us, the less we can call them on their marketing BS once the product is out. Maybe they're just skeered of us!

No, I buy expansions with the expectation I will have some fun with the new content and features. I don't care if I have to change playstyles I only care that given some of my other constraints like time and ability I am still able to have fun. It's probably better that I have to change some as doing the same thing for year after year is boring.

<strong>Cantus, what you said shows you what addicts gamers are. We were hooked long ago and trustingly buy new expansions... hoping, hoping, hoping that THIS next one will be the one that fits my playstyle.</strong>


My playstyle is PvV. Every expansion fits my playstyle...:)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Cant<strong>at</strong>us, what you said shows you what addicts gamers are. We were hooked long ago and trustingly buy new expansions... hoping, hoping, hoping that THIS next one will be the one that fits my playstyle.[/quote]

Well, thank god I'm not an addict gamer then. No way I'm buying LDoN til I know more about it, even if it means waiting til after release.

Well so far what I know about it sounds like it's gonna be the best expansion for me since Kunark. I love dungeon crawling. Even if the loot is awful, I'll at least have some fun crawling around dungeons. It's worth risking the $$'s for at least 1 of my accounts. I'll wait until I hear more before upgrading all of them.

"That sounds like the entrance is in Lguk."

Who knows?, they <em>are</em> all <strong>Lost</strong>.

Well, technically, as soon as the expansion comes out...it's named wrong. It should be:

<strong>Formerly Lost but OMG Here They Are Dungeons of Norrath</strong>

/duck

Or...

<strong>Are you happy to see me or is that a lost dungeon in your pocket?</strong>

I'd look to the Chardok addition to see how it may work...

each instance may be a 'pocket' zone.

Darn...so who is right?

Bah, wait until people play it and squeal, then I will decide.
It is funny how they try to get everyone to buy expansions by "oops" dropping uber loot for a few days. And I though it was to reward explorers...hehe.

I can tell you how it worked in a different game, called The Realm. The instances seemed to be finite, not infinite.

There were roughly ten 'instances' of each dungeon. Or maybe it was 20. Anyway... the entrance to a dungeon was a dark hole next to a big rock in some out-of-the-way place, like the middle of West Karana. You'd click on the rock and your whole group would be teleported into your own fully-populated instance of the dungeon, just like a group teleport spell. But if all ten instances were full you'd instead get a message 'you are number 7 in line'. Then you'd wait around near the rock until some other group finished their instance and ported out... then that instance would be repopulated and your group would teleport in. If people leave your group before the teleport happens they just don't come with you (again, just like a group port spell in EQ).

Once you were inside you didn't need to stay grouped. You could each go off and solo a different wing of the dungeon (though I can't imagine why you would want to).

That game handled deaths in a different way, so losing your corpse in an instance of a dungeon was a non-issue.

There will be 5 different dungeons, with multiple versions of each. Deepest Guk is 1 of the 5. There will be 4 more. That much is known, but not understood by most people.

Personally, I'm guessing, as an example, that each dungeon will have 8 variations of itself, depending on character level. A group with members level 25-30 range would recieve a key for the 1st insance of Deepest Guk, tailored to their levels, while a group with level 31-40 ranged players would recieve a key for the 2nd instance of Deepest Guk, tailored again to their levels. With each increase in player level, the dungeon that the group recieves the key too, will still be called Deepest Guk, but the mob types within, their levels, their dropped loot and possibly their spawn locations will all change.

It seems that the easiest way to do this would be to have 8 variations of each of the 5 dungeons, with some having 9 variations. That would equal "more than 40 unique dungeons".

I know there's alot of discussion and confusion about this, but if you look at the official LDON website you'll see this page

everquest.station.sony.co...on%20Index (http://everquest.station.sony.com/lostdungeons/dungeons.jsp?page=LDON%20Dungeon%20Index)

To me, that shows very clearly that they are only planning 5 actual new dungeons and the whole "instancing" thing will be what allows them to claim "40 unique dungeons". It's kinda cheap, but they've done stuff like this in the past, we all know that.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There will be 5 different dungeons, with multiple versions of each. Deepest Guk is 1 of the 5. There will be 4 more. That much is known, but not understood by most people.[/quote

That is flat out wrong.

There are 5 <strong>themes</strong>. Deepest Guk is one of the five <strong>themes</strong>. From each <strong>theme</strong>, they have created eight or more unique geometry <strong>zones</strong>.

5 x 8 = 40

Got that now? If you don't... here's something else...

Theme 1: Deepest Guk
-- Zone 1: Lost Temple of Ykesha
-- Zone 2: Hidden Palace of the Ykeshan Shamans
-- Zone 3: Tower of Guk
-- Zone 4: Catacombs of the Ykeshan Palace

Theme 2: <insert name here>
-- Zone 1: Blah blah blah
-- Zone 2: Blah blah blah
-- Zone 3: Blah blah blah
-- Zone 4: Blah blah blah

Now do that... for 5 themes, with 8 or more zones in each theme. Each zone being a unique geometry zone. Like comparing Dreadlands to the Overthere. Both use similar textures, but they're completely different layouts. Or better yet, SolA and SolB.

Theme: Fires of Solusek
-- Zone 1: SolusekA
-- Zone 2: SolusekB

You're starting to sound as dense as the wizards over at G[/quote]