One thing that has got my thinking is this - dungeon difficulty will be based on the groups makeup (whatever that ends up being is irrelevant).

What my concern is we have seen many a time in the past where expansions have come out and players suddenly flock to the "easy" zones and don't even touch the "tough/challenging" zones. Take Sirens Grotto for example, that zone was a nightmare and unplayable (except for the totally deranged players) until alot of tweaking was done, I think even to this day the zone only has people in it hunting for the old breatplate gems. In the case of LDoN this complexity of balance and risk is multiplied not only by the fact that it will affect EVERY zone in the expansion but it actually has a basis of randomness to it.

What is scary is the thought that LDoN can bring some fun back into the game and has alot of potential (more so than any other expansion) but if it is released too hard then it will go unused, released too easy and the playerbase goes nuts when it is "nerfed". I enjoyed doing missions in AO, hated them in SWG. But I always did them solo, even though both do have a group option (not that SWG one worked).

I guess there has been alot of talk of the balance of classes and LDoN effects on desirablity. But if the dungeons are too hard no-one is going to be bothered dying 6 times to finish a dungeon which has a smurf at the end that gives you a Rusty Dagger, and players will also get bored too quickly and not go if the dungeons appear too easy, or are too repeatative (although I don't think this part would be much of a problem).

Past experiences in balancing dungeons is another of Sonys not so shining points.

...players will also get bored too quickly and not go if the dungeons appear too easy, or are too repeatative...

Heh. If there's phat l3wtz or phat XP involved, the players will flock to any dungeon that is easy and repetitive, and keep doing it over, and over, and over. Over four years of EQ history proves this point.

www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/e...30604.html

Quote: GS: How does the dungeon system work? Is it a way to keep groups from competing with each other, or camping areas to get specific rare items?

RP: Players will be introduced to the Wayfarer's Brotherhood through world events long before the launch of Lost Dungeons of Norrath. These events will orient them to the coming changes in Norrath, including the ancient dungeons that have been found. Player groups will contact a member of the Wayfarer's Brotherhood to get their assignment and the key to the dungeon. Their adventure may be to kill the boss monster, rescue someone, or clear the dungeon of creatures. All these assignments will offer plenty of opportunities to gather loot and experience.

GS: How much will the dungeons be customized for a given group? Are there any randomly generated areas?


Groups of five or six characters can venture into the more than 40 new dungeons for a private adventure.


RP: There are some rules associated with the dungeons, in terms of the level range of the group, the time allotted to complete the adventure, the time allotted to start the adventure, and so on, but overall the dungeons are balanced to provide groups of five to six with an independent dungeon-crawl adventure that's tailored to their experience level and the adventure type they've selected and also balanced to offer them the hand-crafted content EQ is famous for. [/quote]

So basically it will be balanced to your groups avg level and if you picked a harder mission or a easier mission. I'm betting that killing the boss mobs of some dungeons will require a Def tank, cleric, etc, while the Mario Brothers "Save the princess" mission will be beatable by a blind monk, his cleric bot and 4 ebayers.

Quote: also balanced to offer them the hand-crafted content EQ is famous for[/quote]

BTW, I'd LOVE to meet the dev who hand-crafted Plane of Earth sometime... I'd spend the night or 365 in jail, but...

If they've got any sense, they will make the loot godly early on (say 75hp items from named mobs, 100hp from completing a dungeon, 150hp from completing all dungeons in a theme). That should push up the population of the zones, which will get the knowledge of how to do them out of the hands of the early adopters and into the general player base. Lots of recent content never made that crossover, and so sits unused.

Then, after a few weeks, nerf the difficulty of getting drops so that it doesn't totally destroy the economy. It's not a few weeks of common drops that causes mudflation, but month after month, with the prospect of further months to come.

The usual suspects will complain, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Soru

Quote:
So basically it will be balanced to your groups avg level and if you picked a harder mission or a easier mission. I'm betting that killing the boss mobs of some dungeons will require a Def tank, cleric, etc, while the Mario Brothers "Save the princess" mission will be beatable by a blind monk, his cleric bot and 4 ebayers. [/quote]

rofl......

I am assuming the balancing will be based on your groups composition... Examples would be if there is a Shaman in group then the Mobs will be Un-slowable and If there is a Chanter then they will be Un-Mezzabke and If there is a Druid they will be Un-Snareable and ...

Wouldn't it be easier just to make the mobs always unslowable, unsnareable and unmessable?

Soru

Trust what everyone else is saying. It will not be as customized as you would like it to be. I know this is supposedly "new" technology and thus you can't make assumptions with staunch assuredy.

However, I'd be more than willing to bet that it will simply check average level and number in the party (5 or 6) and adjust accordingly. If I'm wrong I'll happily retract this.

Here's to being wrong.................

Quote: I am assuming the balancing will be based on your groups composition... Examples would be if there is a Shaman in group then the Mobs will be Un-slowable and If there is a Chanter then they will be Un-Mezzabke and If there is a Druid they will be Un-Snareable and ... [/quote]

:evil:

Quote: it will simply check average level and number in the party (5 or 6) and adjust accordingly.[/quote]

5 lvl 65's and a 46 gimp = a lvl 62 instanced dungeon, and a freaking free for all.

From... Lost Dungeons of Norrath: #1 -- Deepest Guk

Quote: GameSpy: Is there any chance that some of the mobs will be NPCs with external quests?

Alan Vancouvering: We don't have any plans to introduce quests from within these zones, but each time you volunteer to help the Wayfarers Brotherhood you are, in essence, accepting a quest. What kind of quest you accept determines the nature of the creatures in the zone. Success or failure in your quest is determined by how well you perform in the dungeon.

GameSpy: What kind of unique loot will be uncovered in Deepest Guk?

Alan Vancouvering: There are all sorts of new loot to be found, some of it in Deepest Guk, and some of it as rewards given by the Wayfarers Brotherhood. <em>The more work you do for them, the more they will like you. Succeed for them enough times and they may allow you to choose a reward from their acquired treasure horde.</em> We're definitely keeping the tradition of discovery and reward alive in this expansion. We know how fun it is to be able to find and earn new treasure. [/quote]

I wonder if that last part referred to faction, or flags gained for each dungeon finished?

Succeed for them enough times and they may allow you to choose a reward from their acquired treasure horde.


This is something I mentioned in one of the other threads. You build up points to "buy" equipment with.


Sort of like DKP...:)

Actually it would be quite refreshing if we finally see some mobs that are immune to slow. As of late, raid content aside, most if not all one-groupable mobs are slowable or at least partially slowable, whereas the amount of mobs immune to snare are extraordinary. I suspect that shaman lobbying has alot to do with it. It's the price you pay for balancing a class completely around one ability.

But it would be even more refreshing if they looked beyond the immune to snare/slow/mez pool of special abilities. What about mobs that cannot be tanked? (e.g. you must root/dot it) Or mobs that prevent healing (so you must learn to spend your hps wisely). Or mobs with such high regen that only massive DoT stacking could ever damage it?

There are alot of untapped potential in EQ in terms of mob abilities. It's sad that SoE has only explored about 5% of them in the last five expansions.

Soru must work for SOE, since that's exactly what they do with every expansion.

Quote: If they've got any sense, they will make the loot godly early on (say 75hp items from named mobs, 100hp from completing a dungeon, 150hp from completing all dungeons in a theme). That should push up the population of the zones, which will get the knowledge of how to do them out of the hands of the early adopters and into the general player base. Lots of recent content never made that crossover, and so sits unused.

Then, after a few weeks, nerf the difficulty of getting drops so that it doesn't totally destroy the economy. It's not a few weeks of common drops that causes mudflation, but month after month, with the prospect of further months to come.
[/quote]

id just like to say


if LDON forces you into needing a perfect group in order to fight:

Warrior / Shadowknight / Paladin
Enchanter
Shaman
Cleric
Rogue
Monk / Wizard / Druid / Shadowknight / AddExtraPersonHere



I will be most upset

Quote: id just like to say


if LDON forces you into needing a perfect group in order to fight:

Warrior / Shadowknight / Paladin
Enchanter
Shaman
Cleric
Rogue
Monk / Wizard / Druid / Shadowknight / AddExtraPersonHere



I will be most upset[/quote]

Ayep, me too.

Why would you want to take a Warrior over a paladin or SK though? Unless your doing the "Boss" Adventure and need 1 war, 3 clr, 1 enc, 1 sk, 1 rog to beat the "adventure" your better off taking a Paladin or SK. Both can out aggro a Warrior 10 levels higher then them, can tank as well as a warrior of the same level (not counting /def) and have back-up skills like healing, pulling, HT, LH, etc....

Quote: But it would be even more refreshing if they looked beyond the immune to snare/slow/mez pool of special abilities. What about mobs that cannot be tanked? (e.g. you must root/dot it) Or mobs that prevent healing (so you must learn to spend your hps wisely). Or mobs with such high regen that only massive DoT stacking could ever damage it?[/quote]

It'd be awesome if the developers were willing to tailor encounters to not only allow unconventional strategies, but in some cases require them.

For instance, some mobs with very high-damage spiked skin that couldn't be simply dispelled because it was a natural attribute instead of a magical effect.

Mobs with slimy skin that coated any weapon used against it, causing any pointed/edged weapon to lose its sharpness for a time. Break out the staves, maces, and any other blunt instrument you can find and start swinging. )

Perhaps a mob that could only be damaged from its backside, with very low dmg direct hits, where you'd actually be better off to have a caster or hybrid tanking and holding aggro only with spells while all meleers attacked from the rear.

Maybe a creature which proc'd a detrimental buff that blocked all direct heals, allowing the characters healing to come only from regeneration-type spells and effects.

I'm still waiting for super-fast mobs with low damage/hit, where a good DS was actually more beneficial than slows.

Sadly, the devs at Sony have a history of designing encounters around the assumption that groups may have specialists in the roles of tank/slower/healer, and these encounters only serve to perpetuate holy trinity thinking.

~Firemynd

I'd probably pass out from sheer adoration if they would just implement some decent AI for ranged-attacking Mobs.


Why the hell caster mobs and archer mobs shoot once or twice and then run up to give you the beat down is completly beyond me.

It would also be nice... in a challenging way, if caster mobs could sense what buffs and debuffs you have, and act accordingly. Don't waste time dispelling someone without buffs, and stand back and cast debuffs then the appropriate spells after the debuff lands. For instance, rather than be random, wizard mobs should start with root, then snare, then begin to nuke, re-rooting, shadowstepping or backing up as required, and not going hand to hand till OOM, and then possibly gateing rather than go hand to hand. Granted, your very soul would shiver at the thought of encountering a room full of mobs with AI like that, but I would pay good money to see a group of warriors and a cleric get quadded....

Same with archer type mobs. They should close to 'optimum range' whatever that may be, and shoot. If you run to them, they should run back untill they are again at their proper range, meleeing only if rooted or out of ammo. This would make ranged PC's more wanted in a group, even if they are not the perfect class in the more traditional sense. At the very least, anyone with a pretention to stun, Root or snare would have a group spot.

rogue mobs could act similarly, staying at range and throwing knives till other mobs are engaged, then going invis only to show up behind you and backstabbing... Or just skipping the ranged part, and having them 'hide+sneak' and always trying to stay behind your tank, rather than just go toe to toe, unless there is another rogue mob nearby...

Priest caster AI is decent now, but it would be better if they too would sense debuffs, and cast what they have, as well as being more selective in what they cast. for instance, not casting the same dot 3 or 4 times in a row, thus getting overwrites, and rather should stack dots intellegently. Shaman should start with Root or Malo, then slow if your melee, then dot, etc...

if caster mobs nuked from afar the game would break


id just love to see caster mobs nuking me through 5 different walls while im targetting them and it says YOU CANNOT SEE YOUR TARGET

Quote: but I would pay good money to see a group of warriors and a cleric get quadded....[/quote]

That cracked me up.

Any cleric worth there salt would be stunning the snot out of that wizard anyway!