Reposted since main thread considered closed. New ideas worthy of consideration for summary thread.
==============================================

I've been pondering this topic for days now and I think I have a solution narrowed down. First though, It's important to go over a few points I'm basing my proposition on.

1) Druids will never fill one of the "holy trinity" positions of Tank, Crowd Control or Pure Cleric.
2) PoP has rendered useless the need for Druids (or Wizards) as porters. Plain and simple, it's no longer one of our defining and <strong>NEEDED</strong> roles.
3) Graveyards, Run Speed I-III and Mounts have negated the need for Druids (Rangers, Shamans & Beastlords) to enhance movement outdoors. While this was a godsend to all classes, it again rendered useless one of our defining roles: <em>masters of travel</em>.
4) PoP and LoY have also lessened the need for Succor as zones are considerably smaller than SoV or RoK zones.
5) The sheer number of mobs that are immune to Root and Snare has grown exponentially since RoK and has rendered the Druid impotent in the role of crowd control.
6) Likewise, the nerfing of Harmony has only compounded our crowd control ability. What was once one of the most desired functions of a Druid is gone. This again hinders our desirability for groups.
7) PoP mobs have essentially made useless the current spell lines of Regeneration and Damage Shields for <strong>ALL</strong> classes. Simply stated, Damage Shields do so little effect that they are not even worth casting and Regeneration spells don't heal enough damage fast enough.

Thus, this leaves us to compete for one of three remaining slots in a group. Within this position we compete as backup healer, buffer, de-buffer, DS and DD/DPS. A wide range of roles which any other class can fill equally well. Thus the dilemma: "Why chose a Druid over another class?" It's because of our <em>Jack-of-all-Trades</em> aspect that has compounded with each expansion to limit the Druid to not having a specific role. Without a key role, or a key function in a group our desirability as a class is in direct competition with every other class that is not of the <em>holy trinity</em>.

The Druid <strong>IS</strong> a well-rounded class. We are the third-best healers, second best DSers, third best nukers and our DoTs are tied as being the best there are. But to a group looking to fill that last slot... nothing about us stands out as a <em>must have</em> class anymore. It's been a long time since it has.

After reading every single post ahead of mine I've drawn some key conclusions on how best to make the Druid a desired class once again. There are some wonderful arguments and some extremely far-fetched and ridiculous ideas too, but they all served to get me thinking about our class. I have tried to keep the key issue at hand: our desirability in a <strong>GROUP</strong>. Therefore:

- Changes must benefit Druids at <strong>ALL</strong> levels, so AA abilities were not even considered as an area to tweak
- Changes can <strong>NOT</strong> benefit Druids soloability

Furthermore, I've tried to keep the integrity of our class in tact and make sure that what I'm proposing would logically fall within the realm of a Druid's abilities. Lastly, I came to the conclusion that try as hard as I can... there is no way to avoid stepping on another classes toes to accomplish this. In order for us to be desired in a group, we're going to have to borrow a bit from some other classes. I've done my best to limit this and not turn us into the end-all be-all class. Likewise, I did not want to render useless <strong>ANOTHER</strong> classes desirability in a group; lest they fall victim to the same situation we're in now. My conclusion is that the only way we'll become valuable again in a group is to increase our ability to improve the abilities of <strong>OTHER</strong> classes we group with.

So how to accomplish this?

In a nutshell, two spell lines that already exist for Druids need to be revamped and enhanced and a new ability for Druids needs to be created.

<span style="text-decoration:underline">Change #1</span>
The Rez debate is the strongest source of public outcry. I do not propose nor think it necessary to give Druids the ability to Rez. The biggest downfall to dying is the experience loss. And it is the Cleric's job to get us that experience back. I don't want to take that key role away from them. Yet another aspect of dying while grouped or on a raid is that you're no longer contributing to the success of the group! You're absence of ability has lessened your group or raid's overall effectiveness. What I propose is that the Druid class assist in getting dead players back into action as soon as possible so they can be effective again. There will be plenty enough time for the Cleric to perform Rezes later. Here's how:

A line of spells (at level 24, 34, 44, 54, 64) that when cast on a player's corpse will 1) teleport the player back to their corpse 2) have no detrimental Rez effects (because a "Rez" was not performed, just a teleport) 3) a portion of <strong>BASE</strong> HPs and Mana (Unmodified by armor. IE: Naked stats) are intact that scale with the level of the spell being cast. The spell would be cast prior-to a Rez. A message box similar to the Cleric's Rez confirmation would pop-up asking the player if they accept or decline. It could only be cast <em>once</em> on a corpse and only if a Rez has <strong>NOT</strong> been performed previously on the corpse. This would serve to get players missing in action due to death <em>back into the group or raid</em> and in a somewhat better position to once again lend support.

L24 - Nature's Guard - 100Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 20% HP, 20% Mana
L34 - Nature's Conserve - 200Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 30% HP, 30% Mana
L44 - Nature's Preserve - 300Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 40% HP, 40% Mana
L54 - Nature's Embrace - 400Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 50% HP, 50% Mana
L64 - Nature's Gift - 500Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 75% HP, 75% Mana

<span style="text-decoration:underline">Change #2</span>
The debate for a stronger Regeneration effect and better enhancements to Tanks DPS has led to this proposal. Our current Illusion: Tree spell line is... well... worthless. Who needs to switch to a Tree illusion to regenerate Mana nowadays with KEI, AA abilities and our mounts? This line of spells can be reworked into a much more useful <strong>GROUP FRIENDLY</strong> line of spells. My idea is that once the Druid changes into a Tree of varying level, he imparts to his group certain <em>Blessings of Nature</em>. <strong><em>Only the Druid</em></strong> is perma-rooted in place and in tree form. The whole group gains the benefit of regeneration of HPs, Mana and an increased ATK though. The Mana component will overwrite the need for the Druid to be on his mount or sitting to regain Mana while the ATK enhancement was a borrowing of another of our spell lines (Share form of Wolf/Great Wolf). Players dislike being in wolf form and because of this, don't get to partake of one of the best components to these spells: an increase in <em>ATK</em>. Thus, I've borrowed the increase to ATK and scaled it down a bit for this series of spells. These spells will stack with all forms of HP and Mana regeneration, including that from Bards, Focus Items or AAs. However, the spells do not stack with higher or lower versions of themselves. Therefore, two Druids can't be in two different (or the same) tree form at the same time in the same group. Furthermore, the spell would take up a buff slot on the Druid's UI, yet for the entire group, the buff icon would also appear in the <em>song buff</em> window. The reason for this is that if the Druid dies, leaves the group or cancels tree form, the benefits for the group are <span style="text-decoration:underline">immediately</span> removed. This is a major departure for any spell, but one that would entice the Druid to be in tree form at all times. After all, Druids don't need to physically attack a mob so there's no setback to being rooted in place. And like the original tree form spells, Druids can still cast spells in tree form. One additional KEY aspect of this spell though is that it's Outdoor-Only modifier be <strong>DROPPED</strong>. So yes, having a tree inside a dungeon becomes a possible sight to see. My only little gratuitous plug for this line of spells is that at level 65 we get a new Illusion: Treant form and the root factor is negated and replaced with a 50% decrease in movement speed instead.

L09 - Treeform - 30Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Increase HPs 3-5/tic, Decrease FR by 10
L19 - Spirit of Elm - 40Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 4-6/tic, Increase Mana 1/tic, Increase ATK 10-15
L29 - Spirit of Ash - 50Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 6-8/tic, Increase Mana 2/tic, Increase ATK 20-25
L39 - Spirit of Oak - 60Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 8-10/tic, Increase Mana 3/tic, Increase ATK 30-35
L49 - Spirit of Darkwood - 80Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 10-12/tic, Increase Mana 4/tic, Increase ATK 40-45
L59 - Spirit of Shadewood - 100Mana - Duration:45min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 12-14/tic, Increase Mana 5/tic, Increase ATK 50-55
L63 - Spirit of the Glade - 200Mana - Duration:1hour - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 16-20/tic, Increase Mana 6/tic, Increase ATK 60-65
L65 - Spirit of Nature - 300Mana - Duration:1hour,24min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Treant/Decrease Movement Speed 50%, Group:Increase HP 25/tic, Increase Mana 7/tic, Increase ATK 70-75

<span style="text-decoration:underline">Change #3</span>
Lastly, our debuff lines of spells need to be enhanced. The benefits need to be raised for each spell and to further increase the effectiveness of the changes, the aggro generated by these debuffs need to be reduced by <strong>HALF</strong> and the resistance check needs to be lessened. If Druids are to become rooted in place with the addition of the new spells above, generating the same amount of aggro as we do now will only serve to kill us off even faster. The current amount of aggro these spells generate is much, <strong>MUCH</strong> too high compared to our ability to mitigate damage to ourselves. Currently, the degree to which mobs resist our debuffs at higher levels makes the spells uneffective in doing what they were meant to do. Resists <em>need</em> to be lowered. The original modifiers for these spells are in parenthesis "( )".

L39 - Ro's Fiery Sundering - 200Mana - Duration:2-3mins - 3.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 10-12(5-7), Decrease FR by 45-51(37-43)
L44 - Fixation of Ro - 100Mana - Duration:10mins - 2.5sec Cast - 6sec Recas
Effect: Decrease AC by 20-23(15-18.), Decrease ATK by 65-75(52-62)
L56 - Ro's Smouldering Disj. - 250Mana - Duration:10min - 4.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 30-35(26-27), Decrease FR by 75-80(66-68.), Decrease HP by 200(150), Decrease ATK by 65-70(58-62)
L61 - Hand of Ro - 165Mana - Duration:3.6-3.8min - 3.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 20(15), Decrease FR by 80(72), Decrease ATK by 120(100)
L62 - Ro's Illumination - 150Mana - Duration:10mins - 2.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 20(15), Decrease ATK by 100(80)

These are my proposals. To sum up, these are the changes to our abilities that will get us desired again in groups:

- Increased regeneration of HPs and Mana for group
- Increased ATK for group (Tanks and Melee to benefit mostly)
- Increased effectiveness of debuff line of spells with decreased aggro generated for their use and lowered chance of Resist
- Ability to teleport recently dead players back to their corpse with a portion of HPs and Mana intact and no detrimental Rez-type effects

These proposals are suggestions and welcome to debate, critique and scrutiny by the Druid community, other class communities and of course by Absor.

Wow, very well thought out. I must say at first glance I really like them!

Two suggestion: add a snare to the treant form so you can walk just not fast (real treants move slow), make the indoor version of the spells turn you into a rock (maybe tweak the indoor version downard a little IF needed.

Deller

I don't think it would be too unbalancing if we could simply teleport any corpse using our exisiting spells like succor, Nexus, PoK, ect. Only with consent and being grouped, of course ;)

It would help with CRs or simply to get bodies to a person who <em>can</em> rez.

Good suggestion Deller. Treants <em>DO</em> move slow.

Amended.

Didn't have a chance to read Kaidian's whole post yet (yay work!) but I'm pretty sure game mechanics wouldn't allow corpses to be moved cross zones, Silley.

I play a warrior and a druid both. IMO Druids are one of the stronger classes in the game and VERY desired in groups and on raids. Druid's heal just fine in groups, damage shields are VERY usefull still, harmony of nature is a great spell and anytime I XP in bot I want a druid or ranger to pull because of it...shall I go on? Honestly the druid class needs *nothing* as compared to all 3 of the pure melee classes and a few of the int casters who all need significant beefing up. Why should soe further upgrade one of the best classes in game when there are others that need help so much more?

Game mehcanics wouldn't allow corpse moving? There's this spell necros have that summons a corpse...it's really neat. :p

But that's <em>within</em> a zone. I think what he meant was that moving corpses across zones wouldn't work.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly Gorlab. Tanks and Melee classes DO need to be looked at. But what this thread is in reply to was a question/challenge posted by Absor himself:

<em>Many of you seem to think that a druid is a good addition to a PoP group. But you're saying that people don't want you in groups.

What is the reason that they don't want you?

What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?

Answer those with the understanding that there doesn't appear to be any real need for any huge changes to any classes. I'm not asking you to tell me that you need to be able to nuke like a wizard and heal like a cleric, nor am I expecting you to introduce me to a new form of ability never seen before. Let's keep this to a realistic level, within the realm of the possible.</em>

As a Class, we <strong>are</strong> pretty solid. But it's our desireability in groups that many Druids feel is lacking.

NO REZ!

OF ANY KIND!

sheesh.

the two best ideas from this recent whine-fest are:

an automatically scaling Damage Shield: (it's damage is scaled to the hits the mob is making)

Improved aggro control, whether by adding jolt-like spells or simply reducing aggro of druid spells.

What VI needs to do to balance groups is create a group evaluation matrix. At a minimun, they should test the following group configurations:

War War Cler Ench Nec Rog
Pal Pal Dru Bard Wiz Rng
SK SK Shm Ench Mag Mnk
Brd Brd Cler War Dru Bst
Cler Cler Pal Ench Wiz Rog

Rog Rog SK Bard Mag Rng
Rng Rng War Ench Dru Mnk
Shm Shm Pal Bard Nec Bst

Dru Dru SK Ench Mag Rog
Mnk Mnk War Bard Shm Rng
Bst Bst Pal Cler Nec Mnk

Wiz Wiz Sk Shm Dru Bst
Nec Nec War Bst Mag Rog
Mag Mag Pal Wiz Shm Rng
Ench Ench SK Nec Dru Mnk

Heh, I know I didn't do that *quite* right but goal was to have each group use one class twice then other slots be done so that all other classes were used 4 times in the list.

Madi,
It isnt a rez it is a teleport!

Deller

I still think one of the few things druids need is a group heal and to move the 58 heal spells down to 55.

Thats about it.

I like the idea of 'teleporting' a player to his/her corpse; fits the travel theme of the druid class, but in effect is similar to a 0% exp revive spell.

It's very frustrating when a group has progressed fairly deep into a dungeon and one person dies, especially if: 1) the group needs that person's abilities to continue, 2) there's no safe way for that person to make it back down without the whole group succoring to zone entrance and starting over.

There's a related idea I had some time ago, long before we had PoP graveyards, that would compliment this spell nicely ... one which places a person's corpse into a "Vessel of Preservation" so it stays with him until he leaves the zone or is succored, either of which would cause the corpse to be left at the zone's entrance. The spell could require an imbued gem acting as a vessel to receive the corpse.

This could give someone peace of mind to continue hunting with the group without worrying that his corpse was going to be stranded if/when the group ported out.

Vessel of Preservation:
Mana- 300, Cast- 10 seconds, Reagent- Imbued Emerald
Description- binds a single corpse into the spell's reagent gem which is then placed on the recipient's cursor and can be stored in his/her inventory. While the gem is intact (until the person zones or succors), that corpse timer is suspended.

~Firemynd

Rather than having DS's scale to how hard a mob is hitting (which I think would make them far too powerful on high level bosses) it would be better if they scaled to compensate for a mob being slower. So if a mob is 50% slowed, the DS would do 200% damage.

As for the teleport to corpse idea, without rez effects and with returning any mana at all I can see it being abused for zerg rushing on raids.

Finally, for aggro I dont see many druids picking up aggro for the debuff they case. Heals and nukes yes, debuffing mostly no unless they try doing it far too early.

Now these are the best ideas I've heard in awile. The corpse one could be exploited by a new version of "bind rushing" but all in all, a very workable idea.

I'm very impressed with the tree form idea and the ro's idea...nice work.

The treeform and Ro's suggestions are absolutely wonderful. Very original.

Easy to fix.

Add both a min and a max dmg component.

You don't want to lose too much dmg to the random hits for 1 or 20 dmg with a say 20% dmg return.

But you also don't want a mob that hits for 2000 suddenly taking 400 ds hits.

So cap the DS to deal with bosses, but also slap on a minimum so that you don't get a lot of zeros. We don't want the average DS dmg to actually go down ; ).

On the original post, there are some very interesting ideas there. Well thought out...still thinking it over though.

Wonderful suggestions.

Well thought out.

Right in line with other druid abilities.

Enhances areas that are much maligned in our spell lines.

Adds to the group in MANY ways.

Does not enhance soloing at all and is focused soloely on helping the druid get a group.

PC Teleport (Teleport <span style="font-size:large;"><strong>NOT</strong></span> REZ) to corpse is a great idea!

Very well written and original Kaidian. Good work.

Every time I see a post with the words "Holy Trinity" in it, I stop reading... period. That was a term that used to mean "Warrior/Enchanter/Cleric" requirements for every group. I'm sorry, but warriors are among the LEAST group desired classes in EQ at this point because of their suckage, and seeing somethign that implies that there's some "Holy Trinity" still at play is pretty downright annoying. If by "Holy Trinity" you mean tank/healer/slower, then by all means, say tank/healer/slower, but even this isn't really telling the whole story.

You want to help druids get groups? My suggestion is to help warriors get groups in a specific way that has recently been presented. It'll raise the desire for druids 10 fold EASY.

A Hate/Dot special attack for warriors that does damage over time as well as hate over time, enabling warriors to tank 2-3 mobs simultaneously while maintaining/building aggro on those he's not actively engaged with in melee.

How does this POSSIBLY help druids?

You want group desirability and your damage shields to matter? Get with 2 warriors and a cleric and a bard and watch the damage shield fireworks when you DONT slow the mobs. Warrior has 2-3 mobs on him with a nice damage shield... the 2nd warrior has the same damage shield and is /shielding the 2nd warrior unslowed, effectively doubling your damage shield effectiveness, and druid is casting of all things RAIN spells on all the mobs at the same time, but grouped instead of quadding. It's like advanced PLing while the druid is actually getting experience.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Warrior has 2-3 mobs on him with a nice damage shield... the 2nd warrior has the same damage shield and is /shielding the 2nd warrior unslowed, effectively doubling your damage shield effectiveness, and druid is casting of all things RAIN spells on all the mobs at the same time, but grouped instead of quadding.
[/quote]
Ack. That would produce CRAZY DS efficiency, but you're talking about 8-12 times the tanked DPS of the standard Single pull/Shaman Slow. I admit I don't understand /shield, is it effective enough to make the strategy viable?

I think I did say Tank/Healer(Pure Cleric)/Slower(Crowd Control), but I get your point.

Warriors need to keep aggro - PERIOD. If a tank can keep aggro even half as much as they do now, there would be no need to make adjustments to aggro any class generates from debuffs. I think the way Hate is generated is flawed.

If I'm a mob and someone walks up to me and just starts wailing on my a**, I'm going to be pretty pissed at him. If some other folks jump in and start hitting me from behind or from the side... yea, I'm gonna be pretty peeved at them too. But it's that guy that's really beating the crap out of me that I'm going to be pissed at most. Not the folks throwing things at me, not those guys in robes in the distance.... that guy RIGHT IN MY FACE laying the smack down on me.

THATS how aggro should work.

Very nice ideas :) I like them a lot, especially the new tree form.

Quote:

Every time I see a post with the words "Holy Trinity" in it, I stop reading... period. That was a term that used to mean "Warrior/Enchanter/Cleric" requirements for every group.


If only it would make you stop posting too.

Go home...warrior recos shoudl be on the warrior boards, not spoiling this good thread.

I am a little uncomfortable in two areas with the recommendations made.

On the first, I like the sound of the Treant buff...sounds very well thought out. And of the abilities listed, I think it would be the most important in terms of getting a group in a typical PoP zone (where it is realitvely easy to drag a corpse to a cleric or wait on a rez in the GY and keep going for now).

Ultimately, this would mean our group desireability would entirely rely on a single spell/buff. And while it sounds potent, the unknowables are:

How material will an extra 75 atk be...
What spell lines will that 75 atk stack with...
What would the mana and hp regen stack with...

I worry a little when it all boils down to being there for one and really only one purpose. The rest is frosting, this would be the cake.

The port to a corpse is a great utility, especially in the iterated dungeons they are looking at for the next expansion. But I don't know if they would really be group-getting at this stage.

On the last point I don't think adjusting the agro and resist rates on the spells will make them materially more valuable. They are not generally perceived as a value by non druids and often those people have no clue you are actually casting the spell. It is a perhaps 10% reduction in melee output which is great, but it is not very perceivable without parsing. I don't think it will help us to make these a little easier to cast.

I gotta say. These are the best ideas yet. I'd be very pleased if any of them actually made it to implementation. Thanks for your very nicely done post.

To the warrior (sorry I suck remembering named :) ), I completely concur that warriors need beefing up. You guys have gotten the shaft the same as druids have IMHO. That doesn't mean I don't think we don't need tweaking, I think we BOTH need tweaking. If anything, you are in the same boat as us, your counterparts are taking your job just because of increased efficiency (in your case aggro, in our watered down utility spells that have been taken from us without anything effective being done for us as class-defining).

These are just my opinions, but I'd say druids, necros and ALL pure melee classes could use some tweaks. Well, rogue seems well balanced to me, but monks and warriors definately need something.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If only it would make you stop posting too.[/quote]

Please don't suppress opinions.

The warrior concerns are valid. There are 2 other plate tanks that tank just as well and hold aggro better than warriors.

If you don't know this yet, warriors absolutely, positively LOVE damage shields. The make up all sorts of crazy ways to see more and more of those "XXX has been pierced ..." messages scroll by faster. Like that /shield method. Which, admittedly, is a VERY nice way to work with damage shields.

If there is a warrior in the group, druids are more likely to get into that group.

P.S.
They seem to like regen as well. Don't know why, replenishment has a snowball's chance in hell of helping heal him. But warriors just love seeing that blue hand in their buff box.

On sencond thought ... After the last patch, I saw Satan at the snowboard store. Not sure why ... But anything can happen.

Warriors never want my clicky BoR :( Something about some silly Dain ring!

it has nothing to do with this thread. I agree warriors need work on agro. This is not a warrior agro thread. And I suppress nothing on his opinions since he didn't actually present any about this topic. And I know he won't listen anyway. Any post that takes the position of "I refuse to read any post that says what you said but I am going to give you my opinion anyway" doesn't deserve a lot of respect.

There are several other threads going already where non-druids are posting their 2cp. This post didn't even respond to the meat of the post, but instead talked about a completely different topic in the vague hope that Absor will read this thread.

Do we really need to derail this one with yet another "what will fix you guys is if they fix us instead" post?

I also find the argument that druids get groups for our DS ability invalid.

First, mages have better DS's and add tremendous dmg. To fill a dmg slot, a mage is a better choice if your primary motivation is DS.

But the reality is most MA's in exp groups won't even bother to tell you when the DS is down. Once the mob is slowed, your DS does relatively minor dmg compared to what the group is actually dishing out. And no matter what they change, slow is still a god power and will be used in every group in some form.

i agreed with the poster untill the point where he explained his view of agro... if i'm a smart mob, and i am, i'm gonna lay into the quickest to kill pc who's going to make the bigest impact on my lifespan with his impending death.

/cackle

but the proposition on a whole has much merit, and kicks much behind. regarding the treant form, if the 75atk and mana regen doesn't stack with savagry/avatar/boatr/masks/bot9, than in the end game xp group, we're not gonna use it, anyway, though.

i'm not saying scrap the idea, i'm just saying it would have to stack with everything. introduce this with stacking issues and beasts/rangers/shaman/melee with primal become one of two things: obsolete if this is better, or dominant if this is worse.

alyn cross
forces unknown

Oldoak,

I told you an idea that would increase the power 10fold of your damage shields in experience groups without affecting raid level encounters, where you guys already have plenty of roles. If you want to pooh pooh that because it isn't a new spell or new skill and doesn't fit in line with your 'vision' or because in some instances a mage would be used instead (which is silly cause mages can't heal and the idea is a heal intensive one), then go right ahead and dismiss it, but at least consider the ramifications before being so blinded by the idea that an indirect upgrade to someone else can't have a direct impact on you, by taking a skill which you have AND are concerned about and making it all of a sudden have importance.

Why did you need the more recent "incomplete heal" spell Oldoak? I'll tell you why, not because you werent' able to heal yourself while soloing, it's because other classes had hit a point where your spells weren't effective TO THEM so your desirability was in the gutter, so don't run around thinking that other classes' skillsets don't DIRECTLY impact the importance of your current skillsets. Making your current skills more desirable and powerful without changing them but by changing encounters is a good thing, and it leads to more opportunities for YOU.

Of course, I'm not a druid so I couldn't possibly know, forgive me for tresspassing on your sacred grounds and trying to inject what I thought would be a GOOD idea for YOU.

It flat out won't work, and has nothing to do with druids anyway.

You posted something you felt would help warriors, and ressed it up in green.

Fact is, if you increase the power of DS 10fold, that is going to help mages get groups far more than druids.

Besides, I in no way see your recommendation having the affect you describe on EITHER druids OR warriors.

Would you really think gropus would shift to a porcupine strategy, with no slow, for this? I don't. Slow is hard wired into the game...it isn't going to go away. With it in, and in use, DS's will never amount to much.

Even a GODLIKE cleric with a druid helping would not be able to consistently keep a warrior alive through chain pulls of 2-4 POP mobs dishing out in aggregate 1500 or so dmg a melee round.

Consistently...that is the point. If it is not maintainable, for long durations, it will never be a popular or well used exp group option.

Oldoak,

You're forgetting some things:

I use porcupine groups to pass PoJ trials all the time, as a matter of fact, a porcupine group is the single most efficient trial group of them all. I'll link you my Mark of Justice as evidence, or you can ask Gaddin or Baraniel about em. They're really difficult to maintain as it is now though because of one thing, and that is sustained aggro on the tank.

Porcupining is killing the mob WITH the ds. Not just adding some dmg.

Even with lowish hp mobs like in trials a DS of say 120 (stacking a few differnt flavors) hitting 1-3x a melee round (lets say 3 for max benefit) will only do 3600dmg to a mob over the course of 60 seconds.

Trial mobs have what, 10khp? And as a warrior your mitigation will mean that on average you would be getting hit less than that 3 a round on average (by any given mob).

Perhaps the last of the 4 mobs would be materially dmg'd by the DS, but the first 3 are going to be killed by your DPS and your casters.

In my experience the real reason the execution mobs are not slowed is that it pulls agro off the tank and their dmg is low enough to ignore...better to have every party member focussed on dmg. The mobs have to each die withing 20seconds? anyway right?

And a trial mob is not a BOT mob, or a tactics mob, or an honor mob, or what have you. Try it again when the mobs max hits are 600 or 800.

Oldoak,

My friend, you're making some crazy assumptions here when saying outright "it won't work".

Incorrect Assumption #1: That blue con ranges are the same today as they were last week. If I can grab 2 other warriors, a druid, a bard and a cleric and go to PoInnovation, Disease, or Torment, or even Veksar or Some of the renewed dungeons that are now back to blue, and kill the mobs 3-4x as fast for less mana, then it's going to produce a similar to greater result. All the mobs con blue now, and with group exp bonuses, they are worth fighting again, particularly if it's at a significantly faster rate of kills. Did AE groups complain that they had to go to Seb and/or Acrylia and get less exp per kill? Heck no, they STILL racked up the exp.

Incorrect Assumption #2: Slow is Hard Wired into the game. No it isn't, it's only a major factor because of mob melee damage output in the more restricted areas that you had to exp in. Slow isn't necessary now in some of the lower PoP zones, and DEFINITELY not required in camps like Shrooms/Juggs/Veksar, which are now fully blue to 65. I used to duo in PoInnovation with a Paladin. Neither of us are big slowers and we did just fine.

Your strategy should work in those zones really without any changes to them.

I have arleady experimented with experience rates in PON with the con change. I know better.

The point of all the recent threads is about standard groups. Druids can do many things, but if you are suggesting that the slowless group is common in PoP you are gravely mistaken.

It can be worked around, but it rarely is. And with 4 classes with some form of castable slow, and another with a commonly held melee proc slow, the situation rarely arises.

At any rate, contending that this is a change "for druids" is laughable and transparent. I agree warrior agro needs work. Saying it is the way to fix druids is well ridiculous. Especially after saying you would not bother to read the substance of the thread you are posting to.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>At any rate, contending that this is a change "for druids" is laughable and transparent.[/quote]

Mind pointing out where I said that? I said specifically that it was a change for warriors, who need help that would also ABSOLUTELY benefit druids.

Could one of the mods either move or delete all the back and forth between Frodlin and I please?

I feel I am just helping derail a well prepared thread.

Hell I don't care leave in his warrior thingy just all the back and forth after.

All been done and said before and it is entirely irrelevant here.

Not fair to the original poster.

Mods, you really should sticky this thread, some pretty good ideas in it.

REPOSTING TO GET THIS BACK ON TRACK

How to Improve the Druid for GROUPING
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reposted since main thread considered closed. New ideas worthy of consideration for summary thread.
==============================================

I've been pondering this topic for days now and I think I have a solution narrowed down. First though, It's important to go over a few points I'm basing my proposition on.

1) Druids will never fill one of the "holy trinity" positions of Tank, Crowd Control or Pure Cleric.
2) PoP has rendered useless the need for Druids (or Wizards) as porters. Plain and simple, it's no longer one of our defining and NEEDED roles.
3) Graveyards, Run Speed I-III and Mounts have negated the need for Druids (Rangers, Shamans & Beastlords) to enhance movement outdoors. While this was a godsend to all classes, it again rendered useless one of our defining roles: masters of travel.
4) PoP and LoY have also lessened the need for Succor as zones are considerably smaller than SoV or RoK zones.
5) The sheer number of mobs that are immune to Root and Snare has grown exponentially since RoK and has rendered the Druid impotent in the role of crowd control.
6) Likewise, the nerfing of Harmony has only compounded our crowd control ability. What was once one of the most desired functions of a Druid is gone. This again hinders our desirability for groups.
7) PoP mobs have essentially made useless the current spell lines of Regeneration and Damage Shields for ALL classes. Simply stated, Damage Shields do so little effect that they are not even worth casting and Regeneration spells don't heal enough damage fast enough.

Thus, this leaves us to compete for one of three remaining slots in a group. Within this position we compete as backup healer, buffer, de-buffer, DS and DD/DPS. A wide range of roles which any other class can fill equally well. Thus the dilemma: "Why chose a Druid over another class?" It's because of our Jack-of-all-Trades aspect that has compounded with each expansion to limit the Druid to not having a specific role. Without a key role, or a key function in a group our desirability as a class is in direct competition with every other class that is not of the holy trinity.

The Druid IS a well-rounded class. We are the third-best healers, second best DSers, third best nukers and our DoTs are tied as being the best there are. But to a group looking to fill that last slot... nothing about us stands out as a must have class anymore. It's been a long time since it has.

After reading every single post ahead of mine I've drawn some key conclusions on how best to make the Druid a desired class once again. There are some wonderful arguments and some extremely far-fetched and ridiculous ideas too, but they all served to get me thinking about our class. I have tried to keep the key issue at hand: our desirability in a GROUP. Therefore:

- Changes must benefit Druids at ALL levels, so AA abilities were not even considered as an area to tweak
- Changes can NOT benefit Druids soloability

Furthermore, I've tried to keep the integrity of our class in tact and make sure that what I'm proposing would logically fall within the realm of a Druid's abilities. Lastly, I came to the conclusion that try as hard as I can... there is no way to avoid stepping on another classes toes to accomplish this. In order for us to be desired in a group, we're going to have to borrow a bit from some other classes. I've done my best to limit this and not turn us into the end-all be-all class. Likewise, I did not want to render useless ANOTHER classes desirability in a group; lest they fall victim to the same situation we're in now. My conclusion is that the only way we'll become valuable again in a group is to increase our ability to improve the abilities of OTHER classes we group with.

So how to accomplish this?

In a nutshell, two spell lines that already exist for Druids need to be revamped and enhanced and a new ability for Druids needs to be created.

Change #1
The Rez debate is the strongest source of public outcry. I do not propose nor think it necessary to give Druids the ability to Rez. The biggest downfall to dying is the experience loss. And it is the Cleric's job to get us that experience back. I don't want to take that key role away from them. Yet another aspect of dying while grouped or on a raid is that you're no longer contributing to the success of the group! You're absence of ability has lessened your group or raid's overall effectiveness. What I propose is that the Druid class assist in getting dead players back into action as soon as possible so they can be effective again. There will be plenty enough time for the Cleric to perform Rezes later. Here's how:

A line of spells (at level 24, 34, 44, 54, 64) that when cast on a player's corpse will 1) teleport the player back to their corpse 2) have no detrimental Rez effects (because a "Rez" was not performed, just a teleport) 3) a portion of BASE HPs and Mana (Unmodified by armor. IE: Naked stats) are intact that scale with the level of the spell being cast. The spell would be cast prior-to a Rez. A message box similar to the Cleric's Rez confirmation would pop-up asking the player if they accept or decline. It could only be cast once on a corpse and only if a Rez has NOT been performed previously on the corpse. This would serve to get players missing in action due to death back into the group or raid and in a somewhat better position to once again lend support.

L24 - Nature's Guard - 100Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 20% HP, 20% Mana
L34 - Nature's Conserve - 200Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 30% HP, 30% Mana
L44 - Nature's Preserve - 300Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 40% HP, 40% Mana
L54 - Nature's Embrace - 400Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 50% HP, 50% Mana
L64 - Nature's Gift - 500Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 75% HP, 75% Mana

Change #2
The debate for a stronger Regeneration effect and better enhancements to Tanks DPS has led to this proposal. Our current Illusion: Tree spell line is... well... worthless. Who needs to switch to a Tree illusion to regenerate Mana nowadays with KEI, AA abilities and our mounts? This line of spells can be reworked into a much more useful GROUP FRIENDLY line of spells. My idea is that once the Druid changes into a Tree of varying level, he imparts to his group certain Blessings of Nature. Only the Druid is perma-rooted in place and in tree form. The whole group gains the benefit of regeneration of HPs, Mana and an increased ATK though. The Mana component will overwrite the need for the Druid to be on his mount or sitting to regain Mana while the ATK enhancement was a borrowing of another of our spell lines (Share form of Wolf/Great Wolf). Players dislike being in wolf form and because of this, don't get to partake of one of the best components to these spells: an increase in ATK. Thus, I've borrowed the increase to ATK and scaled it down a bit for this series of spells. These spells will stack with all forms of HP and Mana regeneration, including that from Bards, Focus Items or AAs. However, the spells do not stack with higher or lower versions of themselves. Therefore, two Druids can't be in two different (or the same) tree form at the same time in the same group. Furthermore, the spell would take up a buff slot on the Druid's UI, yet for the entire group, the buff icon would also appear in the song buff window. The reason for this is that if the Druid dies, leaves the group or cancels tree form, the benefits for the group are immediately removed. This is a major departure for any spell, but one that would entice the Druid to be in tree form at all times. After all, Druids don't need to physically attack a mob so there's no setback to being rooted in place. And like the original tree form spells, Druids can still cast spells in tree form. One additional KEY aspect of this spell though is that it's Outdoor-Only modifier be DROPPED. So yes, having a tree inside a dungeon becomes a possible sight to see. My only little gratuitous plug for this line of spells is that at level 65 we get a new Illusion: Treant form and the root factor is negated and replaced with a 50% decrease in movement speed instead.

L09 - Treeform - 30Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Increase HPs 3-5/tic, Decrease FR by 10
L19 - Spirit of Elm - 40Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 4-6/tic, Increase Mana 1/tic, Increase ATK 10-15
L29 - Spirit of Ash - 50Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 6-8/tic, Increase Mana 2/tic, Increase ATK 20-25
L39 - Spirit of Oak - 60Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 8-10/tic, Increase Mana 3/tic, Increase ATK 30-35
L49 - Spirit of Darkwood - 80Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 10-12/tic, Increase Mana 4/tic, Increase ATK 40-45
L59 - Spirit of Shadewood - 100Mana - Duration:45min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 12-14/tic, Increase Mana 5/tic, Increase ATK 50-55
L63 - Spirit of the Glade - 200Mana - Duration:1hour - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 16-20/tic, Increase Mana 6/tic, Increase ATK 60-65
L65 - Spirit of Nature - 300Mana - Duration:1hour,24min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Treant/Decrease Movement Speed 50%, Group:Increase HP 25/tic, Increase Mana 7/tic, Increase ATK 70-75

Change #3
Lastly, our debuff lines of spells need to be enhanced. The benefits need to be raised for each spell and to further increase the effectiveness of the changes, the aggro generated by these debuffs need to be reduced by HALF and the resistance check needs to be lessened. If Druids are to become rooted in place with the addition of the new spells above, generating the same amount of aggro as we do now will only serve to kill us off even faster. The current amount of aggro these spells generate is much, MUCH too high compared to our ability to mitigate damage to ourselves. Currently, the degree to which mobs resist our debuffs at higher levels makes the spells uneffective in doing what they were meant to do. Resists need to be lowered. The original modifiers for these spells are in parenthesis "( )".

L39 - Ro's Fiery Sundering - 200Mana - Duration:2-3mins - 3.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 10-12(5-7), Decrease FR by 45-51(37-43)
L44 - Fixation of Ro - 100Mana - Duration:10mins - 2.5sec Cast - 6sec Recas
Effect: Decrease AC by 20-23(15-18.), Decrease ATK by 65-75(52-62)
L56 - Ro's Smouldering Disj. - 250Mana - Duration:10min - 4.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 30-35(26-27), Decrease FR by 75-80(66-68.), Decrease HP by 200(150), Decrease ATK by 65-70(58-62)
L61 - Hand of Ro - 165Mana - Duration:3.6-3.8min - 3.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 20(15), Decrease FR by 80(72), Decrease ATK by 120(100)
L62 - Ro's Illumination - 150Mana - Duration:10mins - 2.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 20(15), Decrease ATK by 100(80)

These are my proposals. To sum up, these are the changes to our abilities that will get us desired again in groups:

- Increased regeneration of HPs and Mana for group
- Increased ATK for group (Tanks and Melee to benefit mostly)
- Increased effectiveness of debuff line of spells with decreased aggro generated for their use and lowered chance of Resist
- Ability to teleport recently dead players back to their corpse with a portion of HPs and Mana intact and no detrimental Rez-type effects

These proposals are suggestions and welcome to debate, critique and scrutiny by the Druid community, other class communities and of course by Absor.

Thanks. Was getting worried there.

I have a querry though.... would the changes I proposed to our debuff line be better served if they were changed from a hard number modifier to a percent? So instead of decreasing ATK by 65-68, decrease it by 20%. This would scale differently on each mob as mobs have different ATK. Just a thought.

wow first time i have read a "changes to druid" thread that i thought was well thought out. Though i disagree with the what you think is a trvialization of damage sheilds. 40 point DS i have now adds up. (mob hits 30 times in a fight 1200 points of damage for a very miniscule amount of mana)

I like the idea of adding ATK, kinda like Firefist (why in heck do druids get this) but not a self only buff.

Improved regen is a nice idea, but to make it useful, would boarderline giving druids HoT's and/or the Shammy Torpor line of spells...well spells similar at least.

the treantform is a nice idea, i would like to see that actually go a little further in thought and consideration.

I used Firefist every fight in the beginning. I just can't bring myself to delete that 'ol friend.

Keiden, did you send your ideas to the developers corner? This stuff is just too brilliant not to. The percentage might be a better idea, you're right, but it would take hard core parsing to know exactly what's what.

I like the suggested changes to treeform...only one problem...

Treeform doesn't work in most of the newer zones. That would have to be fixed, otherwise, the spell line would continue to be useless.

The treants in PoP sure move at a pretty good clip. Why a snare component?

Heck, last time I TFed was when I was helping a friend do the scout in WW, and just did it to test faction. I did find out that TF no longer dispells SoW(SoE really).

I did have a copy of Spirit of Oak once, but I gave it away to a friend(who retired like a week after). I don't even have that spell to this day.

I used to use itwhen I needed an extra trash buff for a debuffing mob. It is fast casting and low mana so it worked pretty well ; ).

Personally, I haven't seen the PoP Treants yet. I suppose I was thinking <em>historically</em> for EQ - ie: the Treants in the Karanas and PoG. They don't move terribly fast. But I'm tempted to consider another poster's argument for why being rooted during combat is <strong>not</strong> such a novel idea. Mainly, having to move to target just out of reach players or mobs. I know tree form allows us to turn around in either direction and even pan our view up or down, but I'm beginning to lean toward agreement on the problems beeing rooted in place would cause.

A solution would be that the Treant form is given much earlier in the series of spells than at 65. Perhaps the decrease in movement can scale towards faster the higher the level the spell is. So for example, at the level 34 version you can move at only 50% speed while at the level 65 version you can move at normal speed (modified by whatever speed buffs or AAs you might have). This might work a bit better. Also PoG has Treants of varying size. So the models for smaller Treants <strong>DO</strong> exist. Perhaps the size of the Treant you turn into could scale toward larger with the higher the level of the spell as well.

The only problem I see is that the current version of Spirit of Oak (L59) keeps the Druid rooted in place. Getting rid of that component 30 levels sooner might not go over too well with the developers.

But I'm still thinking on it.

And no, Autius, I haven't sent the idea in yet. I'm still tweaking it. :)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>These proposals are suggestions and welcome to debate, critique and scrutiny by the Druid community, other class communities and of course by Absor.[/quote]
Since you asked for it, I will try to bring some constructive criticism to your propositions.

First, I can agree to most what you said in your initial post, except :
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>We are the third-best healers, second best DSers, third best nukers and our DoTs are tied as being the best there are.[/quote]
I don't see who supercedes clerics and druids in the healing department (raid and experience groups). Shamans are slowers and buffers, they don't like being main healers, and they aren't good at it either.

Second, looking objectively at the 3 changes with "class balance" in our mind, 2 of them are questionable.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>L64 - Nature's Gift - 500Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 75% HP, 75% Mana[/quote]
The ressurection is an ability as a whole, and part of it is bringing the player back to her corpse.

Take a part of that cleric/paladin/necromancer domain, partially improve it (bringing a player back with 75% health/mana!, not denying any further ressurection for experience) and you will hear an uproar of the corresponding communities.

You may find a consensus around a "Teleport Player to Corpse, 0% HP, 0% Mana".
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>L65 - Spirit of Nature - 300Mana - Duration:1hour,24min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Treant/Decrease Movement Speed 50%, Group:Increase HP 25/tic, Increase Mana 7/tic, Increase ATK 70-75[/quote]
I don't see the interest of this, unless you made it stack with our Skin/Regen line. PoT9 is 8 mana regen per tick, add 7 mana regen thanks to "treant form" and you get better mana regen than KEI. What good is having an enchanter in your group again ?
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>L62 - Ro's Illumination - 150Mana - Duration:10mins - 2.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 20(15), Decrease ATK by 100(80)[/quote]
I can see this happen, but I have yet to see a group really looking for a druid because of our Ro line spells.


<strong>Counter Propositions</strong>

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I still think one of the few things druids need is a group heal and to move the 58 heal spells down to 55.[/quote]
In my humble opinion, it would be the easiest and the quickest way to help our class with groups. It has no glitter, no glamour, but it is effective... and needed.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Lastly, I came to the conclusion that try as hard as I can... there is no way to avoid stepping on another classes toes to accomplish this.[/quote]
I disagree to some extent. It is possible NOT to take any other class ability AT ALL if we are given a new ability that simply... enhances other class abilities.

-> Cast a short duration spell on the paladin, and make their ressurection spell more effective.

-> Cast a short duration spell on the beastlord, and make their slow spell more effective.

-> Cast a short duration spell on the mage, and make their damage shield more effective.

etc.

I totally disagree with the <strong>premise</strong> of this thread, at least from a high end perspective. (The changes sound interesting, but the motivation for them is a bit off-base, IMHO). Perhaps we should narrow this down as to what level-range you are talking about. I would agree with some of these points for grouping in the 50s, but by the 60s, especially at 65, I don't think they apply any more.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1) Druids will never fill one of the "holy trinity" positions of Tank, Crowd Control or Pure Cleric.[/quote]
I consistently get groups in PoP where I am the sole healer. The holy trinity in PoP is Tank+Agrro, Slow, and Healing. With TR and NI (I rarely use KR unless the tank is raid buffed), Druid healing is just fine.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>2) PoP has rendered useless the need for Druids (or Wizards) as porters. Plain and simple, it's no longer one of our defining and NEEDED roles.[/quote]
Evac. And if you think people still don't ask for ports to places where there is no pedestal, you haven't spent enough time in PoK un-anon.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>3) Graveyards, Run Speed I-III and Mounts have negated the need for Druids (Rangers, Shamans & Beastlords) to enhance movement outdoors. While this was a godsend to all classes, it again rendered useless one of our defining roles: masters of travel.[/quote]
There is still a usefulness for SoE/FoE for when groups are running across zones. Besides which, I'm not shedding too many tears over not being constantly asked for SoWs :)
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>4) PoP and LoY have also lessened the need for Succor as zones are considerably smaller than SoV or RoK zones.[/quote]
You've obviously never jumped across Nadox using evac. Besides which, succor has another, more useful, function -- especially on a bad pull, if you're the sole healer and no rezzes are going to be available :)
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>5) The sheer number of mobs that are immune to Root and Snare has grown exponentially since RoK and has rendered the Druid impotent in the role of crowd control.[/quote]
Most of these mobs don't run, either. Yes, this can be annoying in CC situations, but unless your puller pulled a whole crowd of non-rootabels/non-snareables, usually there's at least one mob you can handle. And if there is no Ranger or SK in the group, Snare is also still highly desirable.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>6) Likewise, the nerfing of Harmony has only compounded our crowd control ability. What was once one of the most desired functions of a Druid is gone. This again hinders our desirability for groups.[/quote]
Again, I still get asked to use this ability in groups.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>7) PoP mobs have essentially made useless the current spell lines of Regeneration and Damage Shields for ALL classes. Simply stated, Damage Shields do so little effect that they are not even worth casting and Regeneration spells don't heal enough damage fast enough.[/quote]
PoP is all about DPS. The only groups in which I am not expected to cast DS in are those with a Mage. And Regen spells won't help the MT much, but for those instances where somone else takes a couple hits, it can mean the difference between only casting a Heal Over Time spell or having to blow a full heal.

Overall, I just don't see the problem. I get asked to join plenty of PoP groups, because druids have a useful multi-use role, providing healing and/or DPS. Is there a specific level-range you are trying to address?

I fail to understand the logic of lowering the level of when we get our percent heal. I have that spell and it is NOT A SINGLE BIT easier to get a group with it!!! This change will do nothing to help druids get groups!

Also kitten please explain why a cleric (or paladin) would be upset that we had the ability to transport a person back to there body with PARTIAL mana/health? It is not a rez of any kind. It speeds SOME corpse runs at the cost of mana and health, scaling with the level of the caster.

If fact I see one anoying (but acceptable) side to this:

Druid is hunting with his group and recieves a tell Cleric_01 tells you "Drood my group wiped at loc n 1000 p 3250 could you go cast Natures return on me so I can rez my group? THanks dude."

These ideas DO NOT in ANYWAY deminish ANY other class abilities. They are the first well thought out constructive and orginal approaches to the problem I have seen.

They would (in my opinion) solve the grouping issue for druids (but only if all three were implemented together) without adding one single once of soloing power.

It almosts seems that people will attack ANY idea to improve our grouping. Why is that? I had always thought it was out of fear of their class being forced out of the group, now I wonder.

Deller

Zephaus:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I totally disagree with the premise of this thread, at least from a high end perspective. [/quote]
While the wording of Kaidian's seven premise points is exagerrated, the points themselves are valid even for high end druids.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I consistently get groups in PoP where I am the sole healer. [/quote]
For every druid who consistently gets groups, I'd estimate a dozen druids who could easily cite repeated occasions where they sat at zone lines LFG for hours, while slowers and high DPS classes are invited within minutes after arriving.

I get groups easily too - with friends and guildmates. Their trust and comfort level with me as a player gave them the opportunity to see that druids can be effective in groups. Even so, they still hesitate to group in tier2+ PoP without a slower (although we've done it on many occasions), and they often want a cleric in group as well.

However, playing during off times when guildies and friends aren't around, I've tried the LFG thing in several PoP zones and seen first-hand the bias that exists where groups actively seek out many classes over a druid; and no surprise, most of the preferred classes are specialists. Only in tier1 PoP zones have I ever seen a group actively seek out "a healer type" rather than "a cleric" ... maybe that happens in tier2 zones as well, but in 8 months in PoS/PoV/BoT I haven't seen it yet and am left to assume it's uncommon at best.

Again, while Kaidian's points somewhat overstate our weaknesses, the premise of being less desirable to groups than several other classes is entirely valid.

SOE has made its intentions clear: they want to reward grouping and penalize soloers. The druid class has always had soloing abilities to compensate for its lack of group desirability.

Having taken away a portion of our soloing benefit, it is quite logical and reasonable for us to expect them to improve our group desirability. We don't want lesser versions of spells from another class and most have no desire for a true rez or slows, etc; we simply want our group-oriented abilities enhanced to the point where groups would consider unknown_druid as viable a grouping choice as unknown_otherclass.

This request is not about how easy any of us can get groups among guildmates and friends.

Everyone in a MMORPG, regardless of class, benefits from establishing a good reputation and making friends. However, in-game relationships should <strong><em>not</em></strong> be considered the sole basis for desirability above and beyond how well a class is balanced gamewise.

~Firemynd

I agree with all that Zephaus said.

I also think Firemynd made an excellent point that I did not include in my analysis, as I do not experience the "2 hours LFG" syndroma. No one can deny guildless druids the desire to feel somewhat needed and sought after in groups, considering that SoE nerfed the soloing ability of our class. This was implicitely admitted by Absor, since he came to our board and asked what could be done. Well written posts like Kaidian's help alot to encourage the discussion and achieving progress on that point.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have that spell and it is NOT A SINGLE BIT easier to get a group with it!!! This change will do nothing to help druids get groups![/quote]
I do not know the server you are playing on, and it may be a complete different situation than on mine, so my point may not be completely valid.

However, I can assure you that the druid CH made all the difference in the world to get me a group. If you checked many guild application requirements, you will see Druid = level 58. In my opinion, lowering it to 55 would give druids opportunities when no cleric is around (as a "cheap" main healer).
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Also kitten please explain why a cleric (or paladin) would be upset that we had the ability to transport a person back to there body with PARTIAL mana/health? It is not a rez of any kind. It speeds SOME corpse runs at the cost of mana and health, scaling with the level of the caster.[/quote]
If I was cleric, I would feel frustrated at the idea that my ressurection is less desired than the druid one in some (if not) most critical situations.

Let's say you are in a raid, which res would you take first ? Who would you ask to camp first ?

Druids -> who can restore players to their corpse with 75% health 75% mana
Clerics -> who can restore players to their corpse with 20% health 0% mana

Granted, the druid ressurection would not restore any experience, but this would be a secondary thought (3 hours is long enough to do it at the end of the raid, when no one pays attention to it...). Clerics WILL be upset, and rightfully so, as they are downgraded to a "second hand" resser.

I can see the point (perhaps even promote the idea) of a "Transportation to corpse 20% hp 0% mana" spell, equivalent to a 0% cleric ressurection spell, which can be completed by a cleric ressurection spell afterwards, which is what I said.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It almosts seems that people will attack ANY idea to improve our grouping. Why is that? I had always thought it was out of fear of their class being forced out of the group, now I wonder.[/quote]
On the contrary, I would love to see druids being considered more group friendly. I do not attack the idea of making us more group friendly, far from it, I criticized the idea of making us more group friendly at the expense of other classes and of the challenge of the game.

EQ was built around the idea that we needed "different" classes to succeed, balance if you wish. Mudflation (giving all the classes the same powers) is what kills the interest of a game.

I'm sorry if my ideas came out differently.

Although I'm no longer looking for xp or pickup groups, I would like to see the druid class become more group friendly. In my experience, druids with at least a few points of FT and ~25 or more AA are solid additions to any group. I think the target area for improvement should be the 50-65/25aa range.

Limiting factors in this level range are mana, healing speed, and agro/survivability.

Druids aren't as efficient or as fast as clerics when it comes to healing. The lack of a true Heal over Time spell hurts, especially when regen can't keep up with incidental damage on group members other than the main tank. Keeping a level 50-60 tank in mediocre gear alive until slow lands can be nerve-wracking and a drain on mana when the choices are Chloroblast, Nature's Touch or Tunare's Renewal.

Overpulls are particularly dangerous for a group with a druid as the main healer. Druids lack the healing speed and low agro heals of a cleric, as well as DA/DB. Druids are also incapable of slowing mobs to reduce risk. Of the 3 priest classes, we wear the lowest ac/hp armor.

I'd like to see a new line of spells to help druids in a support role in groups. Ideally, it would include one or more of the following: AC, hitpoint return, regen or defense bonuses. Defense bonuses could be defense skill modifiers, dodge / parry / riposte / block modifiers, combat stability / combat agility bonuses like the ones provided by AA, increased effective level for purposes of hit/damage calculations or something else entirely, as long as it improves survivability for group members.

Such a spell wouldn't do much to improve solo abilities of druids who rely on avoiding damage completely, but it could help druids find groups. By reducing incoming damage, it would make regen spells more effective, and lessen the impact of inefficient heals. As a buff, as opposed to a debuff cast on every mob, it wouldn't drain much mana and it wouldn't cause agro like Hand of Ro and Ro's Illumination.

I also support any changes that make treeform or wolfform more viable. Adding mana regen before potg (possibly stacked with potg) or +ATK with less of the current drawbacks would be welcome changes.

on a side note:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>For every druid who consistently gets groups, I'd estimate a dozen druids who could easily cite repeated occasions where they sat at zone lines LFG for hours, while slowers and high DPS classes are invited within minutes after arriving.[/quote]

Much like real life, EQ can be about who you know. If you impress people and show them you have skill and can do things, you will get asked back into groups with people. I love hearing "wow your a good druid, or wow didnt know druids could do that"

A while back they changed the way aggro was handled with damage shields so that aggro was attributed to the person whom the spell was cast upon.

Perhaps a revisit to this idea and a tweak or two would be in order.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Much like real life, EQ can be about who you know. If you impress people and show them you have skill and can do things, you will get asked back into groups with people. I love hearing "wow your a good druid, or wow didnt know druids could do that"[/quote]

Fair enough...if it was that way for all classes, but that simply isn't the case. For example, I've known clerics on Ayonae Ro who have fairly terrible reps as loot whores, jerks, douche bags, etc., and still get recruited into guilds and get groups on a consistent basis. The same thing applies to <strong>any</strong> class that is considered as "essential" to success by the masses, and not just clerics as in the given example. In fact, the biggest piece of human excrement I ever had the displeasure of meeting in the game has one of the "holy trinity" as a main, and despite his widely known reputation as a repugnant jerk, he rarely goes unguilded for long and doesn't seem to lack groups. People tolerate this guy's BS because of what his class is capable of. Let a druid (or other "non-essential" class) do and say what that guy does, and he or she would be trained on sight in every high level zone in the game, let alone ever get a group.

I do think druids should be tweaked to a point that it's no longer "who you know" as much as it is "what you can do" that gets us groups, since games, unlike real life, are supposed to strive for a certain degree of fairness, and having druids rely on "who you know" while other classes can just rely on "what they can do" to get groups indicates an imbalance, an unfairness, that should be addressed.

But, in closing, I want to repeat that I do not want any variation of rez or slow, nor become more of a poor man's cleric than I already am. Maybe if I repeat that enough, suggestions to once again push for even more of a healer role will morph into something more agreeable to evocation druids. :)

Regards,

Aldane Aglond
Ayonae Ro

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I do think druids should be tweaked to a point that it's no longer "who you know" as much as it is "what you can do" that gets us groups, since games, unlike real life, are supposed to strive for a certain degree of fairness, and having druids rely on "who you know" while other classes can just rely on "what they can do" to get groups indicates an imbalance, an unfairness, that should be addressed.[/quote]

Well stated and I completely agre.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But, in closing, I want to repeat that I do not want any variation of rez or slow, nor become more of a poor man's cleric than I already am. Maybe if I repeat that enough, suggestions to once again push for even more of a healer role will morph into something more agreeable to evocation druids.[/quote]

In four years, my druid has been an Alteration, Evocation and Conjuration Specialist. Our most effective role has bounced since release, with each expansion and within level ranges. In all honesty, I do not believe it is possible for the druid community to answer Absor's two questions with a single voice. We have druids who feel we need to be balanced as priests, druids who feel we need to reascend to our old number two spot in burst DPS, druids who are really alts and more concerned about their main characters, druids who are casuals, druids who are uber, druids in the pre-60 game, druids who raid far more than they group and druids who are trying to find solutions that will be beneficial soloing. I don't think druids will find agreement among ourselves as to what are the top five reasons are that druids have difficulty finding groups. There are segments of us who will agree with each other, but as a whole we will never reach a concensus as to what problems need to be solved let alone what the solutions should be.

I was trying to address this grouping issue for Druids of ALL levels, not just those over 60. Maybe the things I've proposed need more tweaking at the higher end for folks over 60? And yes, I base the Treeform hypothesis on the assumption that it would stack with everything.

I would love to see us get a HoT spell or have a few of our higher end Heals shuffled to slightly lower levels. But I didn't think that this alone was going to get us desired again. I was looking for a solution touching more than just one area. I would not be opposed to ammend adding a HoT to our spell line <em>in addition</em> to the suggestions I made. And I'm still torn about how to fix Damage Shields - if they can be fixed at this point.

*edit*
doh, mispost

Stormhaven....

Think you can add these ideas to the Driud Thread Overview? Thanks.

You know... I honestly think that the greatest nerf to druid grouping was the implementation of flagged zones. Before, we could group and if the group died, a group member could jump on another account with a 56+ rezzer OR get a friend to zone in and rez the group. You didn't NEED a cleric in the group to get a rez. Now groups are afraid to do anything without a rezzer, and pally/necro rezzes are usually seen as the last ditch effort.

For all our flexibilities, it's still the 96% rez that's king of EQ!

Was doing xp group in Plane of Earth last night with nothing but a Druid for heals with a group that consisted of Druid Rogue Enchanter (must have slow) Monk Ranger Shadowknight. No problems.

Just bring those heals down to 55 or so. Cant do any adequate healing til 58 which is the suck.

From a magician's point of view:


You cannot increase damage shields actual damage per hit greatly, without causing severe imbalance or coding problems. There is however a better way to work it...
Make their duraiton greatly extended.

In an old style group, you would have many mobs per hour. In PoP you have very few mobs per hour, but each has very high XP reward. So you kill far fewer per hour, than say in Sebilis. Now, that's where the problem with damage shields lie: where as before say a tank maybe hit 300 times for your 100 mana, now he maybe hit only 90 times, ergo the payback isn't as good.

If the duration of damage shields was increased by 3, 5 or 10 fold (as testing may suggest), that would be far better. DSes are superb DoTs in effect with no agro.

Oh on DS balance, think of PvP and the HELLISH amount of damage a damage shield would do if it were "proportional" on a typical MT uber mob fight hm? WAY out whack, and I love DSes!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Make their duraiton greatly extended.[/quote]

With 50% uptime, a 45 pt damage shield against a mob that is on average 50% slowed (not slowed right away, but for most of his life), has an average between-hit of 3 seconds, and hits on average 3 times per round (misses, DW failures, double attack failures, etc). . .

That's 11.25 DPS. Cute and all, but ignoreable.

With 80% uptime, average of 2 mobs in camp hitting players, unslowed, with an average attack delay of 3 seconds and 3 hits per round. . .

That's 71 DPS. Damage shields matter.

If we made 20% reflect damage shield, it would do a hell of alot of damage to AoW+ mobs. If you had these damage shields not work on hits rampage, only 1 person could do this damage -- it isn't a stacking source of damage. Adding 2 damage shield classes will not make it twice as bad. . .

The largest problem is the mage/druid rivalry over damage shields. Mages will want larger damage shields than what druids are allowed to provide.

The only real bennifit of Treeform is that it adds to hp regen, and supposedly has a chance of removeing/does remove some poison and disease effects. The mana regen on it is the same as whatever that wf is at 54/55..2 or 3 mana, whatever the meager regen is on it. That's crap anyhow, most other classes get much better regen. It does help, and I supposed that once you get cabbage/glades, it's just iceing anyhow.

Good post! Ro's Fiery Sundering...did they change the mana cost, or is still 20 or 30 mana like it used to be? That was it's saving grace in my view. It wasn't a huge help, but it did help some, and was very low mana.

Three thoughts...

1) How about letting Mage and Druid shields stack?

2) I like the increased duration for DS's, I thought (as a mage) it would be nice to have a kei/aego duration buff, or make MGB useful for mages.

3) unrelated, but how about a buff that reduced the % of xp lost if you die with it on, perhaps for a healing class that cannot rez or slow =)

I LOVE the tree idea! It is something that seems to me very druidish (is that a word?) while not stepping on any other class.

My first reaction to it though was that it was a bit much... and I still somewhat think so. But I checked and your Share Form of the Great Wolf gives 50-65 ATK so really what you listed isn't unreasonable at all. I think the mana regen component might be a little high IF it stacks with everything but again maybe not... beastlords get 9/9 at the highest level.

I also liked the indoor = rock idea. Maybe have it work at half or 3/4 inside? Inside I think that although a lot of your spells don't work people still want an evacer. Outside I'll admit my first choice doesn't usually include a druid but inside I really prefer to have one already.

Warning though... you DON'T always get what you ask for. :) Clerics asked for a bless line of spells. We wanted it to be like D&D and add attack to our group. We got 10% spell haste. Spell haste is nice I guess but definately not what we asked for when we said "bless."

Although I still think there are problems with clerics I think PoP fixed a lot for us and I'm pretty happy for the most part. Still wish I could solo better than I can but I've survived this long without it so I'll live. What fixed us hurt druids though and I think that is unfair and hope that you guys get something (besides healing which would just break clerics again) to get you back in groups when you want them.