View Full Forums : How do you feel about the modified Epic effect?

Tiliki Thistledowne
09-10-2002, 12:58 PM
With the 9/4 patch, the druid epic weapon effect, Wrath of Nature, was modified to no longer have a snare effect. It is now simply a Damage over time spell that does 55 points of damage per tick for three minutes. Casting time remains 9 seconds.

The downside: No more snare. The epic snare slowed movement by more than either Snare or Ensnare, and lasted as long as the DoT.

The upside: With DoT stacking going live at the same time, Wrath of Nature stacks when cast by multiple druids. WoN is now somewhat less resisted than before, though the specifics are unclear since resist changes went in at the same time, and our other magic-based DoTs seem to be resisted more, too. WoN is no longer overwritten by many spells that used to do so. WoN no longer overwrites Ensnare, so no more worrying on those long kites that you didn't or couldn't get WoN refreshed, since you're now depending on a different spells for snaring. Run-speed change immune mobs are no longer immune to WoN.

What is your opinion on the current state of Wrath of Nature?

Talyena Trueheart
09-10-2002, 01:33 PM
I think a good start will win out by far. The snare needed to go, but the damage on it is far below that of the necro and shaman epics and could definitely use a boost, even if they have to shorten the duration. And cut the cast time down, it isn't like we are going to chain dot a mob to death.

Tiliki Thistledowne
09-10-2002, 03:21 PM
I have to admit, writing up the pros vs. cons for the poll, I started to think that giving up the snare wasn't so bad. It still annoys me I have to seperately snare greens when I'm farming CC, to keep them from all breaking root at once and rushing me.

On the other hand, it looks like root is lasting the full duration a lot more often on greens now, too. Seem to be a lot of unforseen consequences of the resist changes...

09-10-2002, 07:50 PM
I am definitely happy to see the snare go. Not that I didn't like having it, but the separate resist check issue created way too many situations where the epic was useless. IMHO, the epic is far more useful now. Drop the cast time to 7 seconds and reduce the duration to 2 minutes and I think you have the perfect solution. There definitely should be some further tuning to compensate for the loss of the snare effect.

09-10-2002, 10:49 PM
Was going to go with number 2 but it's worded in a way that could be misleading... the if the duration was shortend (which I'm very much for) the total dmg would have to be less... more dmg/tick but less dmg overall or it'd be over powering.

Cast time I don't see as as big of an issue... in most cases you're using it you don't really need to cast it fast so why bother.

I think the removing of the snare component was an upgrade but with it gone I'd like to see the dot fall more in line with the shm/nec epic, with shorter duration, more dmg per tic... maybe have the dps of our epic match the shm/nec ones since those are already the same.

09-11-2002, 02:44 AM
Epic without snare is much better. Epic could now use a slight decrease in Cast time and a look at the Damage per minute.

09-11-2002, 06:04 AM
I voted 2.

Not trying to start any class wars again, but to me it is clearly that our epic is now even more underpowered than it was before. Here is the 3 epics which has DOT effect's if anyone care to compare them.

Druid. Nature walkers scimitar.
1: DoT for 1650 Hit Points (HP) in 30 ticks (3 minutes). Cast time 9.

Shaman. Spear of fate, and posibel to do apart of the quest again to be rewarded black fur boots.
1: DoT for 1268 Hit Points (HP) in 14 ticks (1 minute 24 secunds). Cast time 9.
2: Black fur boots effect instant click spirit of wolf.

Necro. Scythe of the shadowed soul.
1: DoT for 1200 Hit Points (HP) in 16 ticks (1 minute 36 secunds) Cast time 9 ?
2: Decrease Movement Speed 65% (Lvl 55)

If they wanna balance us, they have to eather lower the cast time, or make the damage higher pr tick. Until this happend i can still not see how this was and improvement.

09-11-2002, 06:08 AM
I'd say lower the time to 20 ticks for the druid epic (keeping same total damage, of course).

09-11-2002, 07:38 AM
Perhaps Verant should give us an imbue spell that would 'turn on' the snare component for NWS. The effect would remain active until we logged, same as a no-rent item, then the NWS would revert back to its 'dot only' form.

Such a line of spells could be extended to include other components, too. Could imbue the NWS with healing properties, so instead of a DoT, it cast a HoT.

/daydream off


Tuved Stormrunner
09-11-2002, 09:02 AM
The epic effect was and is a joke. I don't even click it.

09-11-2002, 09:22 AM
I'm also happy to see the snare booted.

I'm happy with it now.

I'd be happier with a lower cast time.

I'd be ecstatic with a duration shorter than 3 mins.

Wyte Psycnosis <Ordo Malleus>
60 Dooid - Rallos Zek

09-11-2002, 09:50 AM
I think it would be great to up the DMG and lower the cast time, it's supposed to be Epic after all. :) I do prefer it with the snare removed.

09-12-2002, 08:50 AM
Same total damage. 20 ticks duration. That seems about right.

09-12-2002, 01:41 PM
btw they better be changing the spell effect for the epic too ...cause atm its a root / snare effect and with the option gone should be changed to a winged death effect...and yea does matter to me :P


09-13-2002, 07:19 AM
for those of us that actually used the epic partially for its snare, the removal of the snare without any additional changes was just a nerf. suddenly my epic is nerfed and i lose a spell slot to perma-memmed snare. im not jumping for joy so far =P

the duration needs to be shortened up now. i believe it was only as long as it was because of the snare component. if that reasoning is gone, there is no reason for it to be such a long slow dot.

09-13-2002, 08:54 AM
Ok ok...enough is enough! Someone snare that dang gerbil please!

/cracks up everytime he see's a Kalinn post

09-13-2002, 09:56 AM
I think they should lower the cast time, shorten the duration , leave dmg the same and add a right click soe or sow to it...

Znail vh
09-13-2002, 08:02 PM
Quote by Feebbil: (edited out secondary item)
Here is the 3 epics which has DOT effect's if anyone care to compare them.

Druid. Nature walkers scimitar.
1: DoT for 1650 Hit Points (HP) in 30 ticks (3 minutes). Cast time 9.

Shaman. Spear of fate, and posibel to do apart of the quest again to be rewarded black fur boots.
1: DoT for 1268 Hit Points (HP) in 14 ticks (1 minute 24 secunds). Cast time 9.

Necro. Scythe of the shadowed soul.
1: DoT for 1200 Hit Points (HP) in 16 ticks (1 minute 36 secunds) Cast time 9 ?
2: Decrease Movement Speed 65% (Lvl 55)
All these have some advantages and disadvantages. Druids get the highest total damage/cast time. Shamans get the highest total damage/duration. Necromancers gets the highest damage if the dotted mob lives 1 min or less.

Necromancers also gets a built in snare, but this also means the dot doesnt stack.

I dont find any of them to be clearly better then the other.

Sobe Silvertree
09-13-2002, 09:16 PM

Your Sig is Killa - I love it, thx for the smile at 2:12 am.

Be Well. - Epic now useful, I wouldn't ask for more. It stacks with everything we got and will hopefully remain that way.

Ardur Iskall
09-14-2002, 01:11 AM
The change was to the better I am sure most agree on that, but we always want more huh?

The epic was kunark era, do not expect it to still be 'epic'. If we get an Epic II then I am sure the effect will be improved further too.

Old saying in Sweden: give the devil your little finger and he will take your hand.

So many whiners...

09-14-2002, 07:57 PM
So many whiners...

Then why did you feel compelled to add yourself to their ranks? Stop trolling, please.

Druids get the highest total damage/cast time.

Damage per cast time? Of what relevance is THAT given a three minute DoT and relatively insignificant differences in cast time among the three?

09-14-2002, 09:27 PM
Druids get the highest total damage/cast time.

have to agree with scirocco on that one. cast time is really only a consideration when it comes to nukes, not for dots. your time limiting factor for dots is duration. between these three epics, given just about ANY length of time, the druid epic does considerably less over an equal period of time (the sole exception would be the shaman epic at times under 14 ticks due to its splurt nature).

as for epics being epic.... yes, for casters epics still are epic. we do not have the wide range of choices available to us that melee do, and there are VERY few (probably less than 4) that are equal to or better than the druid epic when you take effects into consideration. for most melee epics are just a stepping point with few exceptions, for the majority of casters we are more likely to be wielding those epics for a much greater length of time.

Znail vh
09-14-2002, 10:40 PM
Quote by Scirocco:
Damage per cast time? Of what relevance is THAT given a three minute DoT and relatively insignificant differences in cast time among the three?
Consdier if you are using root/snare/epic to kill several mobs at a time. Sooner or later so will you reach a max number of mobs that you have time to keep rooted and epiced. This is where the damage/cast time will be noticeable. For instance, ES bracer doesnt look as good when you consider this. Against single mobs so will this be much less important. So depending on what tactics you are using so may this not matter to you, but it is an advantage to someone out there.

09-15-2002, 03:48 PM
assuming the situation you outline, where mobs killed is limited only by number of epic applications possible per dot cycle, the following numbers apply:

shaman epic can do 9 applications during one dot period of 14 ticks. damage total is 11412 over 14 ticks, or 8151 damage per minute, or 905 damage per mob per minute.
necro epic can do 10 applications during one dot period of 16 ticks. damage total is 12000 over 16 ticks, or 7500 damage per minute, or 750 damage per mob per minute.
druid epic can do 20 applications during one dot period of 30 ticks. damage total is 33000 over 30 ticks, or 11000 damage per minute, or 550 damage per mob per minute.

now, while the numbers are all impressive, NO ONE is going to be root dotting 20 mobs at a time, nor even likely to have 9 going at once. you are more likely to see a max of 4-6 at a time. the determining factors are usually root length and mob availability, not dot cast time.

so if all three classes are doing 6 mobs at a time, the shaman will come out far ahead in regards to kills per minute, with the necro then druid following.

this is the basic imbalance we are talking about getting corrected, that the druid epic is only doing 60% of the shaman epic and 73% of the necro epic given the same time period.

09-16-2002, 06:03 AM
We we told (assumed???) that the only reason our epic was three minutes is because it was linked to the snare effect on it.


1 min epic = 1 min snare
2 min epic = 2 min snare


Well I, and others I'm sure, were pretty sure that if they removed what was at the time considered a bonus (snare effect) that they would at least lower the duration now that there was no limiting second effect.

They did not do so. The epic is better now as ensnare is a MUCH safer snare to have up on a mob unless you used to kill the mobs in under 3 mins. Most high level mobs when being soloed did not die that fast so you would have to reapply the epic at about the 2 min mark (in case of a resist you did not want a pissed off unsnared mob after you) and this reapplication before the effect was even done made the epic even less efficient.

It also had a much longer cast time and was dangerous to pull with in some areas so many would pull with the faster casting ensnare anyway and then have it overwritten later by the epic snare.

This is a win win for the Druid class and I thank Verant but please please consider lowering the duration by at least 30-45 seconds if you are reading this Verant.

09-16-2002, 07:33 PM
grown to like the change. :)

09-17-2002, 08:00 PM
Sorry, I'm just trying to find a relavance to the damage of the epic per the casting time as a factor to compair vs other epics. Seems to me there are several other more important factors

09-19-2002, 05:12 AM
As far as priest balancing has gone so far, clerics have gotten a huge improvement so they should no longer feel unwanted in groups.. (/sigh). Druids on the other hand got a nerf to their Epic weapon with no compensation.

09-19-2002, 11:06 AM
It's not a nerf as most Druids asked for it.

It would have been nice to lower the duration a bit but an Epic without snare is MUCH better than an epic with snare.

Druids have been asking for the snare to be removed for months. Now if people liked the snare still wanted it during all these months they most certainly did not speak up in nay way that I remember.

I thank Verant for removing Snare from the epic. I frown a bit that they could not have at least lowered the duration by even 30 seconds as snare was a plus when the epic came out and only turned into a liability when the game changed.

Znail vh
09-19-2002, 11:59 AM
A small detail, on test so do the druid epic have -100 to resist, while shaman and necro do not. This is a fairly big advantage actualy.

09-25-2002, 06:04 AM
Growing to disklike this change more and more as time goes by... I miss the snare effect and not having to mem a snare. The loss of the spell gem was significant.

09-25-2002, 12:57 PM
I have to keep reminding myself that it is not a snare but I am still happier with the longer duration ensnare.

But I do find that I use it a lot less. When soloing before, I would always get this in either as the pull spell or immediately after root, and I would keep it up.

Now I find I forget sometimes to cast it and don't always bother refreshing it. The DPS is so low that it just doesn't seem to matter much.

Siul Zeuqzav
10-04-2002, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure about most of you, but having the epic didn't remove the need to mem ensnare. Ensnare has been memmed since I got it in Level 29.

I have always used the epic for the extra dot and not for the snare component. You can cast snare many times in 1 cast of your epic, and getting a mob snared/rooted is more important than applying a dot. I enjoy pulling my quad victims using ensnare (quick and easy snare job).

Once you got a few mobs snared/rooted, then applying dots are cake. I, for one, am glad of this change. No need to worry about reapplying the epic snare so that the mob will not lose its snare and you have to deal with an unsnared mob rushing you.