(The two separate polls are now combined with the most popular choices)

After each expansion the average high level tank has experience a jump in hitpoints from 2000 in the original game to over 5000+ now. After each expansion Verant has had to adjust healing to try and keep up. Once the Cleric spell Complete Heal was added to the game this one spell automatically kept up as it healed 100% of a players hit points. Once again Healing needs to be looked at after this latest expansion.

The idea of a percentage based heal has been tossed around as a way to fix class healing once and for all. Please forgive all the figures but we wanted to be as accurate as possible and research this before we proceeded.

We suggest that Verant consider a percentage based heal for healing classes to "once and for all" settle all healing issues in game for "all" the classes. Even minor healing classes could get a limited percentage based heal for example.

Currently the classes that can heal others by spell have the following best "direct" heals at level 60 (not including Clerics CH which currently heals 10,000)

CLR/DRU/SHM/PAL/RAN/BST
955/978/583/583/300/300

Currently a percentage based heal (if translated to a classes current best direct heal) would heal the following amount (assuming a 5000 hit point tank):

Perecent/Amount Healed/Class

100% - 5000 (Current Cleric Complete Heal)
075% - 3750
050% - 2500
033% - 1665
030% - 1500
025% - 1250 (Current best Cleric/Druid Direct AA Point Heal)
020% - 1000 (Current best Cleric/Druid Non AA Point Heal)
015% - 0750
012% - 0600 (Current best Shamen/Paladin Direct Heal)
010% - 0500
006% - 0300 (Current best Ranger/Beastlord Direct Heal)
005% - 0250

Looking at Clerics and how a percentage based heal would affect them:

A Cleric CH assuming a 5000 point tank:

(Cast CH at 40% health - 2 bubbles left): 3000 (60% heal)
(Cast CH at 20% health - 1 bubble left): 4000 (80% heal)

So Clerics in effect really only have a 60-80% heal now.

Druid/Cleric Percentage Based Heal Comparison:

If a Cleric heals at 60% (3000 out of 5000 healed)

25% Druid heal (1250) = 42% of a Clerics CH
33% Druid heal (1666) = 55% of a Clerics CH
50% Druid heal (2500) = 83% of a Clerics CH

If a Cleric heals at 80% (4000 out of 5000 healed)

25% Druid heal (1250) = 31% of a Clerics CH
33% Druid heal (1666) = 42% of a Clerics CH
50% Druid heal (2500) = 63% of a Clerics CH

We would like input as to what people feel this percentage should be. Keep in mind that for that "average" tank with 5000 hit points:

woot 100% for 33% heal hehe ok ok only 2 vote but still :)

Make that 50/50 between 33% and 50% :)

haha @#%$ :( owned :)

Asking for a specific heal increase and crunching a slew of numbers is the best way to get Verant to discard your request.

Even if they took your numbers at face value and ignored all the other game balance factors outside your direct comparison with cleric/shaman heals, they would be disinclined to give precisely what you've asked, simply on the grounds that it would make them look foolish. Think about it. At best, they'd appear incompetent by relying upon players to tell them how to implement a specific solution to a problem they've yet to fully acknowledge, or at worst they'd seem sorely neglectful in not doing something sooner.

By now, they either realize that druids have fallen behind in their ability to perform adequately as backup healers, and are examining all relevant factors to develop a solution... or they will never realize it, in which case we need to focus our energies on other areas in which druids can be improved for high-end balance.

~Firemynd

Imho, no argue can be done about which part of the high end druid balance lacks most, it s heal definately, we heal/buff/nuke, nuke we re quite fine, some ask for a little better but we re ok, buff we re quite ok, could do a little better but won t change much, but in heal we ve totally lost what we were supposed to be , a healer, capable to be the only healer in the party, less competent than a cleric, of course, but still, we re no where close to what we should be able imho, if i duo with a buffed war friend of my guild with say 7khp, when his life is nearly empty it d take me say 7 NT (2800mana to CH him LOOL) and of course way longer casting than CH , in that case how can u tell we re still competent for our job :) NR was a nice 'minor' bonus but doesn t change the world as it is right now.

Quote: we need to focus our energies on other areas in which druids can be improved for high-end balance.


Com'on :) tell me what u think about cuz apart heal there's seriously nothing that s close to need as much work as it :) I might be wrong, but hell i d be surprised :)

P.S: Well, seems the poll head for 50% as it is, i still think it sounds a little bit too much asking but well :) Now get absor to read all of those recent debate and get to work? hehe :)

Fire,

Why is doing your homework going to get Verant to not listen? Are you advocating that Verant would not listen just to spite us?

All these numbers mean one thing IMHO and that is that we did our homework. Looked at healing across the board for all the classes and are trying to back up what we propose with facts and not class envy, emotion or spite.

Now I understand that no matter what you do a certain percentage of Druids/Clerics/Other Classes will fight any change. People do not like change as a rule and even if you present facts and figures some will still not listen. (Picture someone with their hands over their ears saying la la la la)

Verant may listen or they may not but we can but try. Part of the problem is that some issues have go so long that they have become etched in stone so to speak.

The entire "Jack of all trades" comes to mind in reference to Druids. This was never officially said. This was said by someone and repeated so long (even by many Druids) that it is not accepted as fact by many:

Druids can do everything so they should never be good at anything is what some think.

Most Druids feel that we nuke well but need a boost in healing.

Most Druids feel that we are fine prior to the mid 50's with maybe, just maybe Superior heal being dropped from 51 to at least 44 (going from 29 - 50 using greater heal defies all logic - 21 levels - keep in mind that even new world mid level mobs hit alot harder and mid level tanks have alot more hit points)

Most Druids would prefer a stackable (more than one Druid can cast) "real" roll in high end encouters

BUT

Most Druids acknowledge that at the very least (If Verant does not want to retune the high end game) Druids need a bump in healing.

I've said enough. I can but hope level heads prevail across the board both on both sides.

oy! im so confused ~_@
someone explain this to me ^_^~_~-_-


oh yeah - Cobbyl is my hero!

I am presuming this would be a level 60 heal?

Yes it would be a level 60 heal for all classes but Clerics who would get it about level 50.

I would hope that maybe then Verant might consider:

1. Bumping Chlorblast to 52
2. Bumping Superior Heal to 44 (going from 29 to 51 is too long for a new heal in the current game)
3. Natures Touch down to 57

Other classes getting a similar bump down in their healing.

But even if Verant wnats to leave healing the way it is I would hope they consider putting in a percentage heal at 60 for the endgame.

Once you reach 60 there is no more leveling and the only possible improovements in healing comes via AA points.

Obviously putting in percentage heals as AA points would work also:

Heal 1 = 10%
Heal 2 = 20%
Heal 3 = 30%

Or something like that. The only problem I would have with doing it that way is that it would almost have to be in the hard to get AA point skills (IE not the first set) so it would force Druids to level up dozens of times with level 51 exp just to fix healing to the point in which they could raid.

I can see raid guild then requiring Druids to have a zillion aa points just to get in so they can heal properly.

So I would rather they do it by a direct spell at level 60 before taking the AA point route.

Quote:

Obviously putting in percentage heals as AA points would work also:

Heal 1 = 10%
Heal 2 = 20%
Heal 3 = 30%

Couple things..

First, I dont' think this works as AAXP. AAXP skills are manaless and button based. I am not aware of any that creates a scroll you can scribe in your book, and unless this skill were castable, it would not be made useful. As a button, with zero mana cost, I would wager on a very long reset (like the 77min for MGB) in which case it would be ineffective in addressing healing issues. Manaless and quick reset and suddenly we would be unstoppable as healers. It is just too strong.

If you mean that this AAXP would convert existing spells to behave differently I suppose that might work but somehow I doubt the programming would be possible.

Second, neither a 10% nor a 20% heal represent an improvement in healing power in most cases. 30% is a little iffy. Assume that the average 60 druid is in a guild where the top warrior has about 6500 hp raid buffed. 10% would be a 650 heal, and only at 20% would you begin to see an improvement over NT.

HOWEVER, most druids are not in fact having to heal the warriors with the big hp. We are healing the rangers/bards etc ... also the casters. They have hp more in the 3000 to 4500 range. On a 3000hp player, 30% is still less healing than NT. On a 4500 hp player, 20% is stil less than NT (30% on 4500 hp is a bit better than NT). Situationally, the 30% heal would grant little benefit in most cases where druids are healing.

In terms of looking at an AAXP change, the one I would favor would still be to improve the (god i can never remember -- gift or adept) so that instead of improving by 2%, 5% and 10% for the three levels, it would be 5%, 25%, and 50% (or some other significant set of numbers). This would have the added benefit of working for all priests. And in terms of our balance against mob dmg at least, we would all see improvement althought our relative power would remain unchanged. And the programming has already been done so that that ability does not in fact make CH stronger, which would only make the game more out of balance than it is.

Not sure about this oldoak but i think Cassea meant changing the value on Healing Adept (the aaskill that increase ur current heal of 2,5,10percent depending skill lvl) just in upping them, if i m wrong then yeah i guess the value stated are a little low.
But about recast time, u stated 2 valid point, but remember there is many possibility between both so u could find a good deal (15min like AE taunt perhaps? or 5 min or whatever i dunno but whatever VI feels like).

If I can't use a heal several times within the same minute it probably will not make much difference to me in terms of my healing power.

It becomes an ocassional helper tool or a downtime tool.

During a raid situation if I am healing I am chain healing...several targets in my group, CB or NT as fast as I can cast them. Or I am not healing at all (no AoE, but that is kinda rare other than Vindi/Statue).

15 minute reset on a heal spell would make it pretty useless to me. Sure I would use it, and maybe make a priority of getting it, but it would not make me meaningfully more able to heal on a raid or in a group.

Agreed. Any lengthy reset on a heal spell (say, over 15 to 20 seconds) would render it largely useless for what we really need it for.

Which is why I would MUCH rather have a 33% heal that I can chain cast than a 50% with restrictions.

For sure I would like a 50% unrestricted but the unrestricted part is more important to me than a higher percentage.

As far as the AA points go. I'm against doing it this way. I mean if this is the "only" way Verant will put it in then I guess we have not choice but it would not really be a balance issue if you need a zillion AA points to get the skill.

imo, percentage based is a bad idea, In a group where I am main healer - I would rather top off a warrior and give myself extra time to do other buffs rather than chain cast a 33% spell knowing it gets less efficient each time. There would definitely need to be a mix of % based healing and 'flat rate' healing. I prefer to top off the tanks and the only way I can see to improve druids' healing abilities is to increase the efficiency of the spells HealingHP/mana and decrease the casting time of the spell to a degree (I would definitely welcome any improvment no matter how small heh). This would definitely help during raids where we can increase our healing rate (healingHP/time). I don't mind the HP of our heals, but increase our rate and efficiency of our heals would be best.

Verant could even make a small change in these areas and not tell anyone... they could save-face this way and it would be a win-win situation to a recognized problem /wink /wink

A percentage based heal would heal the percentage based on the FULL maximum hit points that the person being healed has.

It will not get weaker after each heal.

For example:

Tank a has 4000 hit points total:

Each 33% heal would heal 1333 no matter how hurt the tank is.

Tank b has 5000 hit points total:

Each 33% heal would heal 1667 no matter how hurt the tank is.

I think some people are confusing this with healing a percentage that the player is hurt. This would prove to be nearly useless unless a tank has lots of hit points and was near death as it would prove to be a worse heal than what we have now.

Cassea,
That makes much more sense. I would still hope for a mix of % based and 'flat rate' as i mentioned earlier and not just switch all our healing spells to % based (wave bye-bye to a druid's ability to PL). I'd also like to add that with a 50% heal you could have Druids on their own CHeal rotation just like the clerics, but landing the heals when tanks are at 50% then... I think clerics would really fight that one... I see 50% heals as a far off dream... 33% would be nice but also a pretty large jump in healing abilities for tanks with 5000hp. 1666 healing ability as opposed to our current 978 /shrug. It is a good idea but I forsee TOO MUCH opposition to this change also, but I'm all for it ;)

It's no secret that I'm pushing for a 33% "unlimited" heal.

Unlimited in that Verant does not make it's use more restrictive that our current best heal but maybe with a slightly high mana cost.

The problem is that we are dealing with two issues here.

Druids need a "bump" in healing ability to put us back in the game as well as a way to fix healing forever.

The reason some advocate a 50% heal can be attributed to our original healing roles pre-expansion. Some thought we could heal too well back then but the issue now is not level 1-54 but 55+ and in particular on raids in which we cannot heal enough.

How do they bump up Druids healing without stepping on Clerics toes. Well you can't really. Since we started off being the number one and two healers in the game we will forever overlap in healing abilities.

The numbers speak for a bump in healing and a percentage heal for other classes. Whether they add this or not I do not know. I hope they do not "save" healing fixes for POP or I may not be around to see it.

I cannot see how they can wait that long to balance the casters.

I want to see wizards do the same DPS as Rogues (and other casters bumped up percentage wise based on Wizards)

THAT is balance.

I want to see Chanters get a Complete Mana Dump that would return all casters to full mana with one cast. Sound silly? Yep - about as silly as having one spell return a player to full health.

Balance to me means that Casters and Melee types given the same number do the same damage.

Does anyone have any numbers from maybe a log parser what casters do vs melee on a raid? I would be very interested in seeing this.

Wizards outdamage rogues on many SoL raids.

Doing 100-150 dps sustained isnt abnormal for wizards (rend robe mixed with Ice Spear is 130 dps if not resisted - and with just a few rods can be kept up for pretty long) killing bosses. Rogues dont do 100+ dps due to high ac.

Clearing the trash wizards do even better - as each mob is dead in less than 15 sec just one of their high damage nukes (critted) often carries the exp.

Also - if you mean in a non-raid situation. If wizards could do the same sustained dps as rogues in every exp group - but be able to do it in spurts when its REALLY needed (which rogues cant really do) then that might be a tad much. The ability to do the damage fast still should count for something.

Before I make my comment here, I think your ideas are good ideas so please don't feel I'm being critical on the idea itself.

But have you considered one major problem of a percentage healing spell from a computer mechanics side?

Right now, if I cast a heal, it does a set amount of healing. Fairly simple, and easy on the system.

If you cast a percentage healing spell, each time I cast that spell, the game is going to have to find out how many hitpoints the person it is being cast on has, and then calculate a percentage of their hitpoints. For each casting of this spell.

And each person that it is cast on, it would have to do this for.

My worry would be, that you are looking at definite increase in load on the servers/clients because you will have to pass information from the druid casting, to the person that is being cast on, then the person it is cast on has to pass information back to the server of their hitpoints, then the server has to calculate their percentage healed and pass that back to the person it was cast on.

Takes a lot more computing power than "this spell was cast on, increase this amount".

Spiritual
EQDruids.com

Before we started this I was told that the programming was already in the game as another spell works similar to this. CH now works by simply healing 10k which is more than any tank currently has.

Whether you see the number or not you already have the hit points left for the tank. When you target someone the data has to be xfered so you can see their health bar so I do not think any more lag would occur from this.

Consider this:

1. Druid targets Tank
2. Server reports health of Tank so Druid can see Health Bar
3. Druid casts Percent Heal and info xfered to server
4. Server already has the variable - MAXTANKHEALTH in memory and calls up spell subroutine
5. This occurs:

CURRENTTANKHEALTH=CURRENTTANKHEALTH+(MAXTANKHEALTH *.33)

Effect = 33% heal

The current direct heal is:

1. Druid targets Tank
2. Server reports health of Tank so Druid can see Health Bar
3. Druid casts Direct Heal and info xfered to server
4. This occurs:

CURRENTTANKHEALTH=CURRENTTANKHEALTH+SPELLHEALAMOUN T

So it does not really take any extra work on the server part unless there is something else going on behind the scenes that I do not know about :)

I got an idea!! Give us a heal with same mana/cast time as CH but have it heal 20% less. So make it an 8k heal.

:)

Please forgive all the figures but we wanted to be as accurate as possible and research this before we proceeded.

Oh wow most druids picked the biggest percent. Stunning conclusion and a fabbo bit of research.

Give it a rest. This poll was a combination of two prior polls.

The polls ranged from no change to 10%, 20%, 25% 33% 50% 75%

The two most popular were 33% and 50% so we combined the two polls.

The numbers are accurate and presented in a fair and unbiased way. We even researched what a "real" Cleric CH is and were told that it really was a 60% or 80% heal depending on the situation.

Had we wanted to make the numbers tipped in our favor we could have compared a 100% heal but we all know that this would not be fair and in fact no one (I am told) waits until a player is near death to cast CH.

I might also point our that we used a 5000 hit point tank as the basis for our numbers. I am told that high level tanks top 6000, 7000 or even 8000+ hit points now but many "average" tanks are still around the 4000-5000 range.

5000 seemed like a good compromise.

You see had we used 8000 as the figure it would make a 33% or 50% heal seem "much" more powerful BUT it would also push the healing ratio for CH to the 16-1 range and in fact would have "helped" our cause.

Using 5000 hit points and 60% - 80% for the basis of this poll and the numbers was IMHO very very fair.

I'm sure Verant crunched all the numbers and came to a similar conclusion as they, in fact, are testing an even better heal than we asked for (well better in one way - higher percentage, but worse in another - capped at 2940)

While I would have prefered a percentage heal without a cap I understand why they did it and also understand that if the numbers in POP show the heal to later prove inadiquate then Verant could simply up the cap if needed.

If you cast a percentage healing spell, each time I cast that spell, the game is going to have to find out how many hitpoints the person it is being cast on has, and then calculate a percentage of their hitpoints. For each casting of this spell.

In assembly, for a 25% or 50% heal, you can simply use the SHR command. One of the fastest commands to execute on many computers. 75% you simply do both a 25% and a 50% and add them together. no need to spend processor time with DIV

What SHR, or Shift Right, does, is to move all the bits one time to the right.
10101110 (174)
becomes
01010111 (87)
which if you continues becomes
00101011 (43)
00010101 (21)
00001010 (10)
00000101 (5)
00000010 (2)
00000001 (1)
00000000 (0)

So it's not really a lot of calculations as long as it's optimized properly.