View Full Forums : iCheal Day One - How did it work out for you.


Windfyreskii
09-26-2002, 09:04 PM
Ok,

For me this heal is AMAZING. I was a main healer today for CT with 2 warriors and one monk with no slower. For the first time I could heal without worry. It shocked the living @#%$ out them and me.

Since this spell is a billion times more mana effective then what we are used to, we can also throw in other offensive spells. So its almost like we are wizards and clerics wrapped into one awsome package.

Throw in a nuke, an epic, a bracer, another nuke.. 1 cheal and the mob is down dead.

I was starting to get pissed because I wanted to use it more often, yet i didnt have to. I was so used to Natures Touch.

Im very happy with this spell and think its alot better then we all thought it was going to be. Hats off the Varent.

For once i was taken over a cleric for an exp group. It felt good to tell the cleric "Hey go solo, i got a group". LOL

Weoden
09-26-2002, 09:14 PM
Id like to get some feedback on how this spell works in groups. I have not had the chance to get a group as a healer yet but im going to try and work that into a group... Does this spell heal up to 75 percent of health? How does it work?

Stamina01
09-26-2002, 09:15 PM
"Since this spell is a billion times more mana effective then what we are used to, we can also throw in other offensive spells. So its almost like we are wizards and clerics wrapped into one awsome package."


And yet 95% of the 60 druids here continue to whine about wanting other things, or to see other classses get certain things at a higher level so they can be more like druids.

L1ndara
09-26-2002, 09:23 PM
It's pretty close to the same as casting NT twice but half the mana. *yawn*

Kreado
09-26-2002, 09:27 PM
warr 5kish hp's max heal was 2952
druid (me) 3440hp's max heal 2500
monk 4kish hp's max heal 2632
(base heals, no AA/focus effects)
without exact hp's on monk and wrr cant give an exact percentage but seems to be about 75%

Tudamorf
09-26-2002, 09:29 PM
L1ndara says: It's pretty close to the same as casting NT twice but half the mana.

Let's try some math, shall we?

NT = 978.
2 x NT = 1,956.
NR = 2,925.

A value of 2,925 isn't "pretty close" to 1,956. In fact, NR is "pretty close" to THREE times the amount healed of NT, for the same mana.

*edit* Manually removing the quibbling going on.

L1ndara
09-26-2002, 09:41 PM
*edit* Manually removing the quibbling going on.

Tudamorf
09-26-2002, 11:00 PM
*edit* Manually removing the quibbling going on.

JigsawDenniz
09-26-2002, 11:07 PM
2 things:

1. WE ARE BALANCED NOW SHADDUP!

2. Its TR, not NR. NR is Nature's Recovery. TR is Tunare's Renewal. Big difference.


-oh-

3. Tonight while taking down Aaryonar we had a very funny moment. It was our third attempt (Aaryonar is bugged to all hell in his current form) and when he was about 30% and everything looked to be running perfectly one of us druids said "Guys ~ Mid-fight Statement" ... "I LOVE MY NEW HEAL". Made everyone very happy. I was thinking exactly the same thing at the time. Of course just then Aary warped to god-only-knows where and summoned us each one-by-one to his feet. With 15 minutes until server down I've never seen a CR done so quickly.



Tonight sucked though because channels weren't working. It was very weird doing things the old-fashioned way again. Four guilds in ToV (one doing Doze, one doing HoT, one doing WToV, and us doing NToV) was very interesting. I just hope I rememember to turn my /ooc, /auc, and /shout back on when I sign on tomorrow.

And what was with all the LDs?! They better fix that!

And taunt doesn't seem to do @#%$ for nothing anymore. That kind of sucks.

L1ndara
09-26-2002, 11:07 PM
Both of you need to go take some prozac.
edited.

SuburbanLife
09-26-2002, 11:10 PM
This spell is amazing, plain and simple.

I was able to keep a group alive in the Village in Velks, I had C3 at that time, and I never dipped below 80% in mana, was doing a little nuking, DSing etc. A definate upgrade to using Chloroblast.

Not only that, but now my favorite hunting spot has been improved. I charm wolfs in Maidens Eye and then get any mobs I see and take em down fast, with our pets 70% haste spell, shield of blades, and natureskin, mobs go down fast. This heal spell has created zero downtime for me, pet regens a lot of hps when im out pulling several mobs, and by the time its done fighting I just toss one or two Tunares Renewal on it, then good to go.

Not only that, but now when I group with a druid friend of mine, we can derail all those nasty trains that head to DSP, so no more problems with those mobs coming from a wizards 20mob quad, we just root em and smoke em. /evil grin

If your not 58, hurry your @#%$ up to 58 to get this spell, it is jawdropping.

Bartleby Windtalker
www.magelo.com/eq_view_pr...num=312452 (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=312452)

aandaie
09-26-2002, 11:39 PM
I already thought we were basically balanced, so to me all this stuff is "free" ;)

A lot of people are confused and think it heals up to 75 percent of your HP.. like.. someone casts it on you and you are healed to 75 percent, or they are wording it funny and I get confused. It heals a MAX amount of hp according to 75 percent of your hitpoints with a max limit of 2900 or so? So on a player with 2500 hp, its going to be an 1875 heal no matter what that players HP are at... so yeah, if they were at zero they'd be healed to 1875 so it would look like a "heal to 75 percent of their hp" then. If they were at 500 it would still heal 1875 so you'd heal them to full hp.

Actually the new heal is not going to look that much better than Nature's recovery since all your AA stuff works on the old one and evidently they screwed up and it has no effect on the new. This could make it look like the mana for hp healed difference between them was not that great. However, my guess is this was a mistake and will be fixed.

My, you people are up as late as I am.. ahaha.

L1ndara
09-26-2002, 11:40 PM
*edit* Manually removing the quibbling going on.

Bizitt
09-26-2002, 11:46 PM
Had great fun with it the first day.

Duo'ed with a 60 war (5k-ish hp) in ME the old-fashioned way (no aggro-kite -- she smacks, I ds, dot and heal). No problems, no mana shortage (even after C3 wore, with the exception of trains).

Was in CC/debuff group in VT later so didn't get to test it out much -- back to chloroblast patching till the cleric could get EE/DL off. But TR also came in handy for bigger spot heals and rampage healing. It would have been useful for the group shammy too, but he kept trying to outpace both my heal and the cleric's with his own new heal :p .

Stormhaven
09-26-2002, 11:57 PM
There, now I'm happy. Both L1nd and Tuda were editted. So if you guys wanna keep sniping at each other, take it somewhere else.

Lotusfly Stewnicely
09-27-2002, 12:01 AM
If I could offer an opinion, which is seldom sensible on a forum such as this...

You know that things are awry when the topic of Tunare's Renewal being equivalent to two, or three, Nature's Touches for the same mana causes vitriol, and abuse. ^_^

Whether it's two, whether it's three, whether it's 2.34 - it seems to be having a positive effect on those posters that have experimented with it. Come and enjoy the game, and leave the making-of-enemies-over-trivia to someone else - life is a much more peaceful place that way! I cannot guarantee you spiritual enlightenment, but I can promise you that life is easier and more enjoyable. ^_))


Toodlepip,

Rebecca

Tils
09-27-2002, 12:21 AM
Im sure Lotusfly is on drugs or cabbage or something ...all her posts for the last few days have been very hmm ...enlightening! and cryptic :P

hehe

Tils

Turrwin Trickle
09-27-2002, 01:19 AM
we did servitor of luclin in griegs end last evening. ok, servitor is not really a high end encounter but not the everyday kill, too.

I was able to keep the maintank alive all on my own once servitor was slowed. just short before the end of the fight, when some wizzies in my group got aggro and I had to heal them I needed some help of the clerics.

I'm pretty happy with that spell.

poor clerics. now I understand why they were so upset. they were the only ones who really knew how powerful their CH was in fact and how powerful druids would become with that heal.

I still believe it would have been better to give druids the ethereal line clerics got instead of our new heal, but, well, that's only my opinion.

cu
Turrwin Trickle
Hierophant
Innoruuk

MellenFC
09-27-2002, 01:33 AM
It was great for mana stoning while soloing today. With a crystalline torque and self buffed (only 58 so was using natureskin) at 2100hp I was able to gate to misty and MS from 0/10m to full in about 4mins.

Gattwin Greyleaf
09-27-2002, 01:50 AM
For once i was taken over a cleric for an exp group. It felt good to tell the cleric "Hey go solo, i got a group". LOL


I'm sure that cleric will be happy to res you when you go LD or if the zone crashes now. Oh, and clerics still cannot solo effectively btw...

L1ndara
09-27-2002, 01:57 AM
poor clerics. now I understand why they were so upset. they were the only ones who really knew how powerful their CH was in fact and how powerful druids would become with that heal.

LOL, you've never used CH. CH is to TR what TR is to greater healing.

ShadowfrostXev
09-27-2002, 02:51 AM
poor clerics. now I understand why they were so upset. they were the only ones who really knew how powerful their CH was in fact and how powerful druids would become with that heal.

*mildly*

I did try to let you know. :)

Question:- Have any druids here found that the spell is not adequate to heal their xp group in the absence of a cleric or shaman ?

Tils
09-27-2002, 03:00 AM
"Question:- Have any druids here found that the spell is not adequate to heal their xp group in the absence of a cleric or shaman ? "

Isnt that the whole point of having the spell? Why should you need a cleric or shaman in a group over a druid in an exp group?

Tils

Andryhanel
09-27-2002, 03:13 AM
I absolutely could not be happier.

I was invited to a king group in sebilis. There was not another healer in the group, and yet I had zero trouble keeping the main tank warrior healed. In fact only once when her health dipped down below 20% did it not act as a complete heal.

Not only that but I had mana to snare, nuke every mob a couple times, keep the group buffed, and generally have a very good time.

You can quote all the numbers you want to, the bottom line is this: Im having fun! =)

SilleyEskimo
09-27-2002, 03:17 AM
I bought the spell, and Sev spawned. Our guild rushed to EJ and immediately went to a Gore spawn. I was pulling Gore and, like an idiot, tried to cast a 10 second heal on myself with Gore swatting at me ;) Gore died, loot was distributed, then I had to log and entertian RL friends. So, from the 45 minutes I was online last night, TR really didn't seem to help with poor judgment ;)

I really look forward to trying it tonight, although I think we have a DoT group schedualed for the Grey. I don't think I'll get a chance to try it there... I'll get around to it eventually!

Seriena
09-27-2002, 03:22 AM
Shadowfrost, I posted my exp in another thread. In some cases it was adequate, in other cases like an unslowed Seb Protector it was pretty difficult and I needed help.

Blackin DeMaster
09-27-2002, 03:22 AM
I didn't play much last night, but I did walk in once while my wife was up doing Emperor with the guild and she says "Watch this!!!".

A 60 Troll Warlord in her group had just died, been rezzed and had just gotten dressed. Sitting at about 35%, she hit him with the new heal and it put him at 100%. She cackled gleefully. :)

That's good enough for me...

greggo rumbletum
09-27-2002, 03:44 AM
I couldnt be happier - this is a huge upgrade for my druid. Duoing with my wife (mage) with no outside buffs we slaughtered the disturbed elyysians.

Aaeamdar
09-27-2002, 03:47 AM
My experiences are mixed.

I really love the spell. It is clearly, even as is, a big improvement to Druid healing. That said, everytime I cast it, I am reminded how I utterly wasted over one half of my current AA points. That kind of sucks. If I had been an evocation speced druid that pumped points in SCF, I am sure I would be completely happy. If I were a Druid that played enough to have 100+ AA, I am sure I would be completely happy. As is, casting it just makes me pissed off. I only cast it at all, because it is our best heal, even as it is.

ShadowfrostXev
09-27-2002, 03:52 AM
Tils:- Rich Waters said that it should be possible for a druid to perform the role of main healer in an XP group. I was curious to know whether the Tunare's Renewal spell achieves this objective. I felt that logically, it should, but I didn't know.

I'm on record as saying that Tunare's Renewal is a much-needed upgrade to the druid class and calling for it to be implemented. Are you imputing some other motive on me ?

Scirocco
09-27-2002, 04:11 AM
From the reports, TR seems to be doing well in low blue XP groups (druid able to heal without a slower) and in higher range XP groups with a slower. This is the type of information I asked for yesterday.

Now, push it. Try the higher range XP groups without a slower. Try the high blue XP groups where you get an XP bonus (the 55+ mobs).

And raids, of course. What experiences with CH rots, or handling rampaged tanks, or handling AoE damage? And report the mobs being dealt with, of course...:)

Scirocco
09-27-2002, 04:13 AM
Oh, and let's stop referring to it as a Cheal please. We all know it's not really close. Call it TR, or even a Pheal, if you must.

Kildaere LiSiofra
09-27-2002, 04:18 AM
Way way fun for xp group, 3 of us in chardok, had a great time keeping monk and rogue alive, with no slows on nameds!.. no raids yesterday, but looking forward to testing it out. I'm sick to death of raids being called off because of lack of clerics.

Plendil
09-27-2002, 05:01 AM
Oh, and let's stop referring to it as a Cheal please. We all know it's not really close. Call it TR, or even a Pheal, if you must.

I guess all those tanks are now going to want to "cop a pheal" from the druids?

Plendil

LivinAmbuDunamis
09-27-2002, 05:01 AM
I'm really glad to see people liking this spell. Of course, I could have told you you would like it. I know people whined about how we couldn't be useful on raids (load of crap) and this spell was a waste of time. In my experience, raids weren't the problem. Most all of the raids I've gone on have been with my guild and they take me just because I'm a guildie. At least now I'll be able to contribute a little more. The best thing I can see coming from this heal is with XP groups. My biggest problem (and probably yours) is always being LFG because no one really wanted us. The only time I ever got into an XP group is if they had an extra space and felt sorry for the poor druid who kept shouting LFG. Probably just wanted to shut me up. From what I'm hearing (I'm only lvl 56, so I haven't used this spell yet), this spell makes us wanted in XP groups now. This has always been my main complaint with being a druid and seems to be corrected now. Now, all they need to do is bump down NT to a lower lvl so druids 51-57 can get into a group.

Scirocco
09-27-2002, 05:09 AM
Of course, there now have been a couple of changes since yesterday. MP and similar focus effects no longer work with it.

And to my understanding, HG and HA still do not work with it. I'm scratching my head over these two, because a level 58-60 druid has no reason to spend the AA points on HG and HA now. Yes, they work with CB, but the clerics have taken over the fast heal role at the higher levels now (when we would get HG and HA).

How many people would want their HG and HA points back if this restriction remains?

Sedeth
09-27-2002, 05:16 AM
I think the Heal AA effects being removed from this spell is, well, dumb. :) All in all had a great time using it yesterday. Used it on a Gore raid and fortuantly already had several hours practicing timing on myself so it worked out VERY well indeed. :) I can't think of a lot I would change about it other then lowering the cast time possibly and just flatout making it a 3k heal. The fact that our AA will be wasted while using this spell is a bit harsh IMO. It is NOT a cleric CH and shouldn't be treated as such.

BEKKEN1
09-27-2002, 05:23 AM
Certainly hoping that the lack of HA/HG is an oversite that will be corrected by VI. I've got both at lvl 3 and was certainly looking forward to getting a crit for 6k or so.

Overall the spell is great and was very useful in fighting the Emp and VT mobs

Scirocco
09-27-2002, 05:28 AM
Go test it. I've seen one report of increased HP working...perhaps. With HA 3 and HG 3, you ought to be seeing some crits.

Racmoor
09-27-2002, 05:38 AM
I'm against this spell for a few reasons that I've stated before. Having said that, I am man enough to say that this is a good spell for us. The only complaint I have about the spell itself is HA and HG did not have any effect when I logged at 0100hrs this morning. I hear it's changed. I hope so.

Racmoor

Morningmist Avalanche
09-27-2002, 05:48 AM
Personally, I like the idea of calling our new heal iCH-- 'in-Complete Heal' hehe. Don't get me wrong tho, t I haven't been ingame yet and used the heal but based on what others are saying, it sounds great and I can't wait--maybe I'll actually get back into my druid now that it looks like I'll be able to get good groups!!:)

Teaenea
09-27-2002, 05:56 AM
I had to pick up a guild warrior so he could join us at an EXP camp last night. On the way there the two of us got jumped by a couple of mobs. (in ME) I had no problem keeping him alive. I was down one bub of mana in a situation where I would be down 3.

Later in our EXP camp, I told our cleric to let me play around with my new heal for a while. She was very happy to play melee for the night. (She had a blast) I had no problem being our groups healer in UP. We did have a slower (chanter). I was able to easily keep up on heals, Buffs, snares, Epic dot, Group Damage shields and rarely dropped below 75% mana.

I used both Chloroblast, for fast heals and to top off hp's on others, and TR.

one thing that was very obvious to me. I definately saw a big advantage to clerics having group heals. Now that we have TR, I don't think we really "need" them, but it is definately a nice healing advantages clerics have.

I was healing our level 60 Warrior, with full HoT gear, Eggo and Focus to full HP from just under 2 bubs of health left. Before our cleric and shaman were there he only had cabbage. Durring that time I was able to wait until he hit berzerk mode before healing him to full. Healing our SK and Monk with Eggo and Focus was never a problem. Casting time was not an issue for me last night. (I don't have any focus gear)

I honestly can agree with anyone that thinks this spell is crap. Fact of the matter is, even if it's only healing 1100 hps, it's a bigger heal than NT.

I do know that several people did not understand how the spell worked. I explained to a few people that it can heal you to 100% health. Just the total amount of HP healed is capped at 75% of the PC's max HP up to 3K.

Thank you Verant.

Milesgond
09-27-2002, 06:05 AM
awesome! I love it! as far as I'm concerned, our class is fixed!! :D

Cyanravyn
09-27-2002, 06:18 AM
I really havn't had the chance to play with it yet. But it really sounds like it's a good spell.
On casting, do you treat it like the clerics treat cheal? ie when tank was down to 2reds you toss it out? How have you guys found it to be MOST effective in actual group usage? Do you guys keep Chloro up still? For the quick heals. Just curious :0)

Onetree Tallbarque
09-27-2002, 06:42 AM
After trying various healing combinations while group exp hunting, I have replaced NT with TR. TR takes longer but is more effective.

NR is also seeing less use since TR is more efficient.

The real problem is CB. Yes, it's fast (3s), but it does so very little healing. I tried using NT instead of CB and nearly lost my tank a few times. That extra 2.5 seconds is just too long in heavy battle.

If only Nature's Touch was changed to 3 seconds cast I'd be happy. Then CB would go the way of the dinosaur.

Batou062671
09-27-2002, 06:46 AM
Question:- Have any druids here found that the spell is not adequate to heal their xp group in the absence of a cleric or shaman ?

Well, I went to DN with a group yesterday that was made up of 2 druids, 2 warriors, a monk and an enchanter. The only time TR wasn't enough, was when we poped a bettle trap and both warriors got down very low in life. I wouldn't have been able to heal both and one would have died. However, we both did a TR and kept the two warriors alive. Overall, I'm pleased with the heal so far, though I could wish that AA and Focus items would work [/quote]

Stormfront
09-27-2002, 06:55 AM
Will you marry me Lotusfly? :)

P.S. Humans do it better!

BTW, grats to all of you druids with your hardcore new heal, I'll get it one day :P

Glorybme
09-27-2002, 07:02 AM
Well I just got through grouping for exp in ME and was a desired group member who loves and adores the new heal. Everyone in the group was making comments on how valued I was now lol. Well, I was before but whatever, at least they appreciate the new heal spell, along with a ton of buffs. Not one group member died either.

Aldarion Shard
09-27-2002, 07:30 AM
Oh, and clerics still cannot solo effectively btw...


yeah. neitehr can monks, druids, necros, shamans, or SK's. /bonk

as for the original question - the new heal is perfect. lvl 58 is oh about FOUR FREAKIN LEVELS TOO HIGH but whatever...balance late is better than balance never.

druids are now balanced from 1-40, and 58-60. things could be worse. :)

Tarsiid
09-27-2002, 07:35 AM
I was in a 4 person group that went down into the Chardok mines area last night -- 60 Druid, 60 Monk, 60 Paladin, 58 Cleric. Obviously, with the Paladin and Cleric around, we had plenty of healing in general, so this isn't an "I was the only healer in a 55+ area" story.

However, our basic gameplan was for the Druid to try to act as primary healer, while the Paladin and Cleric were just used offensively. It turns out that even without a slower, Tunare's Renewal was plenty of healing to keep the Paladin alive vs the (level 55) Enslaved Iksar Miners, without the group ever being forced to stop pulling.

After KEI wore off (doh!), the Cleric had to back off their offense somewhat (though not completely) and throw in the occasional CH. Note that even if the Cleric wasn't there, we could have continued to hunt in that area (which is a mix of 55+ and sub-55 mobs)... we just would have had to reduce our pull rate. Since we weren't even a full group, and we were in a high level area, I'd still say this is a success story.

Bottom line: for the first time in *years*, I felt like my Druid was performing as a REAL healer, not some half-assed "patch healer". Since I made my Druid with the goal of being a healer, this makes me very happy.

I feel like Druids are now balanced for the Luclin era. My only concern is with Planes of Power; I don't see any new spells that will *keep* us balanced as tank HPs climb up towards 10K.

Aluaeia
09-27-2002, 07:38 AM
I wouldn't have a massive twitch in the side of my face if I got exp for training people. Or if VI had a clue of any sort.

Whee. 143% exp more of suckage.

Teuffel
09-27-2002, 07:46 AM
I'm very very pleased with the spell. I duo a lot with a warlord when I exp, so last night I wanted to put it through a nice test. I got myself a Kei, buffed myself and the warlord with druid buffs....and we headed to Velks.

Chasing spiders around wasn't really testing out my new heal spell very well....so he and I dropped down into the 'Pits' kobold area. There happened to be 3 kobolds at the drop down point, an Icepaw Kobold, an Icepaw Prophet, and an Icepaw Sorcerer(had never seen him before, but haven't hung out in pits a ton so /shrug). Anyway, the initial break was a tad frisky...but not only did Tunares Renewal allow us to break and hold the camp down there (nice exp when duoing btw :) ) but we faced an interesting challenge when Grendek Icepaw spawned. (The 2 of us beat him fairly easily) The spell didn't seem to generate much aggro, I even sat to med several times instantly after casting.

I'm very happy with the spell, I feel like my value to a group has multiplied exponentially :)

Edit: Wanted to add that the warlord was using a slow-procing weapon (Truncheon of Doom) to start out all the fights till the mobs got slowed. Heh, I can't take all the credit ;)

L1ndara
09-27-2002, 07:54 AM
The real problem is CB. Yes, it's fast (3s), but it does so very little healing. I tried using NT instead of CB and nearly lost my tank a few times. That extra 2.5 seconds is just too long in heavy battle.

With HA3 and healing focus it's 514 average, which is a fair number of HPs, enough that it's the spell I keep memed for soloing and not NT. HG can crit it for over 1k healing which is nice when it happens.

MoonDancer
09-27-2002, 07:56 AM
well i figured i would post my experiances in VT. Last night i got stuck in the pull group since my GL wanted to try it out. anyway 4 monks, me and a mage pumping out rods i never went below 60 mana and one monk died only once during the 3 hour run.

Using a mix of NR, NT, and TR though i think i will replace NT with CB.

when it came to named i was ooc(out of chain heals) and totally mopped up in this roll as well as a rampage healer along with anouther cleric. i think it will be incredibley efficient to swap standard rolls in rampage healing where the cleric becomes the fast healer with ugh name just popped out of my head. anyway and the druid becomes the main CHer in this.

i also duod with a ranger in chardok down to the herbalist which includes a slew of 55+ mobs. and i never dropped below 60mana except when nuking.

-MoonDancer

Cyanravyn
09-27-2002, 08:49 AM
Wow sounding good guys. Thanks, much appreciated. Can't WAIT to get ahold of my tank and go to town :0)

chenier
09-27-2002, 08:53 AM
I like it. =)

Was in a full xp grp that crawled the deep (wizard, warrior, ranger, chanter, me, cleric - we group together quite often). I sent a tell to the cleric to make sure I wasn't stepping on her toes (she said, no not at all!).

Used it a little, but not really a super need to because of the cleric in the group (sure was fun tho).

I ended up having all three heals loaded (CB, NT and TR), though I think I won't have NT loaded next time. Gotta have CB to throw on the chanter or wizzy when they get aggro, or when we get trained and the warrior is going down fast (I lob in several CBs while the cleric casts cheal - again, it's our normal xp grp, so the cleric and I work well together).

I wish I could take HG2 back and put it in nuke crits 2, but whatever. It's done.

Apollohades
09-27-2002, 09:25 AM
yeah. neitehr can monks, druids, necros, shamans, or SK's. /bonk

Are you playing everquest or Unreal Tournament 2003?

Last I checked, most of those classes are extremely good at soloing.

Grats to druids for getting their wishes. /rude to VI for giving clerics a hammer and calling it "balanced if you spend 30AA getting the Alt skills to allow you to half-arsed melee."

Mithrull
09-27-2002, 09:32 AM
A 60 Troll Warlord in her group had just died, been rezzed and had just gotten dressed. Sitting at about 35%, she hit him with the new heal and it put him at 100%. She cackled gleefully.


Hehe, and people say this spell is nothing like CH. CH's are timed to land at just about 30% and for good reason. They heal to full. For anything that doesn't require a CH chain where you might have big damage spikes this heal is *IN PRACTICE* extremely close to CH.

Aaeamdar
09-27-2002, 09:34 AM
Cheal Day One - How did it work out for you.

Bought a copy of Cheal and found it was still tagged Cleric only. I could not scribe it. Anyone else have a different experience?

Kytelae
09-27-2002, 09:44 AM
There's another reason why we need to stop referring to this as CHeal. It's not CHeal at all, and calling it that is confusing.

Aldarion Shard
09-27-2002, 09:52 AM
Last I checked, most of those classes are extremely good at soloing.

as are clerics, now. my 57 cleric buddy solo kills blue mobs non-stop, zero downtime - he and i have both timed and parsed it. his dps (melee+procs+hammer pet) is currently at about 75% of warrior melee damage, plus he has nukes, undead dots, and heals and roots.

he solos quite effectively at 57, with the 56 store bought hammer spell.

yes, clerics solo just fine.. at least post 56.

Geneze
09-27-2002, 10:13 AM
Your warrior only does about 26dps? What a gimp!

Monax
09-27-2002, 10:14 AM
Was glad to see this heal go live. I wish it had when we received the cleric heal upgrades (not gonna talk about the hammer).

I'm struggling on the exp grouping impact but I think time and culture will tell.

Hopefully less small raids will die when the sandman comes calling for me.

Good luck.

Doc

SoulforgerMountcalm
09-27-2002, 10:21 AM
I spent quite a bit of time soloing mobs in Skyfire post Rage patch and I can say cleric solo is still a joke. My lvl 42 monk outputs more damage and takes less damage than my cleric.

I currently use the 58Hammer, there was some parsing done on the cleric website regarding this.

32
From another thread :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~===------===

September 4th: Cazic Thule - Using the unnerfed hammer
Duration: 3922 (1 hour, 5 minutes)
Damage: 82810
Melee: 34161
Proc Damage: 48664
Procs: 430
DPS: 21.11
Proc DPS: 12.41
Average time between procs: 9.12 seconds


September 7th: Ssra Temple - Using the nerfed 56th hammer
Duration: 7251 (2 hours)
Damage: 107873
Melee: 48430
Proc Damage: 56894
Procs: 501
DPS: 14.88
Proc DPS: 7.85
Average time between procs: 14.47 seconds


September 10th: Acrylia Caverns @ The High Priest Ring - Using 58th Hammer
Duration: 3981 (1 hour, 6 minutes)
Damage: 138933
Melee: 60092
Proc Damage: 38199
Procs: 335
DPS: 34.90
Proc DPS: 9.60
Average time between procs: 11.88 seconds
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


With soloing there is also time where you do not swing your hammer, IE: CH etc. On average it would take me 3 to 5 min to solo a Mature Wyvern. After soloing 4 I would be LOM without C3.

That is with casting MoR, MoK, Yaulp 5 SCHW (22% Haste) and The pet hammer. We just do not do enough DPS to make it worthwhile.

After getting 1 to 1.5 blue in 1hr I can't really call this awesome or even average solo power. Perhaps as I gain another 20-30AA points melee will be a better option.... Root n Nuke is not much better and resists on our Magic only nukes can limit where we solo.

Our dots are Undead only (not to mention a sick joke) and even then it can be a pain to try and find a decent spot to solo that is semi easy to access. Lets face it clerics are not a real mobile lot even with the nexus.

Soulforger Mountcalm
60 Cleric of Brell

~~Btw gratz on the 3K heal.

~~~EDIT Can't get quote link to work

Oldoaktree
09-27-2002, 10:29 AM
My experience Day 1.

Well, marathon PoG raid last night in spite of all the bugs (no chat channels....SUX on raids...don't know how we got by without em in the old days).

Most notable thing was that we for once had an overabundance of healing. My guild is pretty well mixed but we always seem to be just shy a cleric or to not quite have enough healing to go around. At the PoG raid we had 5 shaman and 4 druids at various points, along with oh 5 or so clerics.

Since TR was the new toy, druids mostly wanted to heal (odd even to me an alt specialist...everyone likes to nuke more lol). Anyway, it was incredibly gratifying to actually be able to save that warrior that was multitanking. Or to know that you could take care of that melee inyour group while the cleric watched the MA or SA.

I felt....useful.

I know that sounds very woe is me, but I had the opportunity to play a CH cleric not long back and realized how radically different our raid roles were. I did need to watch my mana on the cleric, but I was really able to keep up with the healing I needed to do with no problems. As a druid I am used to being oom or at 20% a hefty percent of the time and trying to figure out just how much mana I can spare and whether this or that person can wait a bit.

Also as a druid I am used to mostly nuking these days (we are better on cleric numbers than we once were). Sure I see the ocassional crit, but mostly I just keep dumping my mana into dmg and on a boss mob, my best nuke barely shifts the mob health bar by a pixel. It is discouraging to think that the agreggate contribution you made in dmg terms might be less than half a bubble of the mobs health. In absolute terms that might seem like a lot of hp, but it doesn't make you feel...needed.

I wasn't strictly speaking needed yesterday either since we had so much healing going on. But knowing that I could cast a heal spell and it would actually be enough to fix the dmg problem was downright revelatory for me.

I am thrilled about the new spell, mostly for what it means for my guilds raiding. This will make the game more enjoyable not just for me, but for my guildies around me. And I think everyone is pretty pleased.

Aldarion Shard
09-27-2002, 10:31 AM
yes. warriors do about 26 dps.

not *my*warrior only, either. this is a good average dps figure for warriors in their mid 50's.

Geneze
09-27-2002, 11:41 AM
well, I'm not mid 50s. I'm 60, with decent equipt, including 31% haste. A 60 warrior should have at least 36%. I'm guessing he's a bit higher than 26dps.

BTW, I know a 60 paladin that averages about 52DPS. If warriors really only do 26 dps, then they are truly broke.

Riggen
09-27-2002, 11:46 AM
Don't feel bad, Soul. It usually takes longer than 3 to 5 minutes for a Druid to Root/Dot a Mature Wyvern to Death, and if you're doing 4 of them in a row before needing to stop to recover you're doing pretty darn good.

Experience in Skyfire just plain sucks anyway.

Moving on to my first day experience: Two Pallies, a Shaman, a Ranger, a Rogue, an Enchanter, and myself (Druid) killed Radir Fireshower and then the Spirit of Radir in Umbral Plains. Once Slow landed, it was no trouble at all.

Tudamorf
09-27-2002, 01:11 PM
First, level 55+ warriors don't do 26 DPS, that's ridiculous. Even a gimpy level 55 warrior will do 40 DPS.

Second, on topic, I did a little XP today with NR and it was awesome. On a dire charmed pet with about 8K hit points, it healed almost 2 bubbles worth, which meant I only needed to cast it once every 3 fights (or so), on slowed level 50-56 NPCs. I was amazed at all the extra mana I had.

I was going to head to CT next, but didn't have time... But I can just imagine how ridiculously easy healing there is going to be now.

SoulforgerMountcalm
09-27-2002, 01:33 PM
I don't feel bad, just unbalanced since I have watched countless druids quad mobs in SF just as fast as I can kill 1 maybe 1.5 mobs. Vs other priest or Int casters and most melee we just don't cut the mustard. But you know that Riggen you have a cleric.

Khardan
09-27-2002, 01:36 PM
ask your warriors what their DPS is vs. ssra bosses =p

warrior dps CAN get rather low on some encounters. . .has very little to do with gear or skill in those cases =p

Oldoaktree
09-27-2002, 01:57 PM
Quadding in skyfire? Wierd...I have never seen it done.

Effective quadding needs 4 mobs of the exact same type (since they need to run ...err walk...at exactly the same speed) and it is generally better if they have about the same number of HP.

Skyfire is a) very varied in mobs, b) very prone to adds, and c) [unparellel structure] the mobs have too many hp for effective quadding most of the time.

There are only a handful of quadding zones most druids who quad use...others can be forced to work but generally are just too much trouble.

And the exp sucks in Skyfire anyway.

Haass
09-27-2002, 02:25 PM
I seriously hope how you all know how well off you are now.

My normal hunting group consists of me and 1 friend, both 2 boxing. Toons are 60 warrior/shaman/monk/53 cleric. On the 53 cleric account is a 60 druid.

The cleric is now totally, 100% useless. Allow me to demonstrate for the feeble minded.

My warrior with said group has 5800hp buffed (4200 unbuffed, which is a tad above average..not uber, not trash, well equipped). CH's land on me at approx 30% life. They heal right around 3000hp.

We replace cleric with druid and we become MORE EFFICIENT. I lose 400hp from symbol, gain a little more from Glades. Group gains Clarity. I no longer have to use a snare whip, and can switch to a higher DPS weapon. Druid can nuke for 1024. Druid can apply manaless bracer DoT. Druid has mana free Grove. Druid brought us to the Dungeon, druid will port us back to the nexus afterwards. And guess what? For the exact same amount of mana the cleric heals me to full with, the druid heals me to full with. That is so overpowered, it's not even funny.

I"ll agree with you on one point. On raids, where tanks reach 7khp, Natures touch doesn't cut it. But a 3k heal breaks the XP grind so badly that clerics do not have a place anymore. Don't tell me that i'm just some dr00d hater, because I'm not making the choice between a random druid and a random cleric. I know who is in control of both toons, and I know the druid is A BETTER CHOICE AS A SINGLE HEALER for that group slot. They heal just as well as clerics and bring more utility to the table. The druid heal should be nerfed for game balance down to the shaman heal. However, as long as it's in game, you bet your @#%$ i'll be using it.

*edited happy thoughts*

Nalin
09-27-2002, 02:43 PM
I still prefer to have a cleric in the group. As an Evoc speced Druid, I like to nuke. If I wanted to be a cleric, I would have been one. On the other hand I feel this spell was needed because in my 3+ years of playing, NOTHING breaks up a group faster than the cleric saying they have to log. Now when the cleric leaves, we can stay and keep xping. Also the cleric dieing no long means we have to evac or get wiped out.
I dont feel people should use druids "instead" of clerics, but rather should consider how nicely we can SUPPLIMENT them now. TR is great for healing the cleric who is getting beat on and used up DA. In raids with enough clerics, you can lessen the chances of failure to losing a cleric in the chain by having druids watch the clerics health. Smaller guilds should be able to do mobs they couldnt before.

To the clerics reading this: Please dont flame the PEOPLE behind the keyboard playing druids. It feels lame to one day be loved by the clerics im porting and the next day get flamed for something VI did. Remember it's a game an we didnt create the spell and hack into VIs servers and add it. There have been many positive changes to the game recently, I very much doubt priest balancing is complete. We just need to wait and see what VI does for clerics next.

Oldoaktree
09-27-2002, 02:44 PM
Comparing a 60 druid to a 53 cleric is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

Aldarion Shard
09-27-2002, 02:56 PM
Tudamorf:

I parse daily. Im obsessed with my dps. 57 warrior, wielding CBoL and FB (10/18 and 12/22) = 26 dps. (this is unhasted, 22% haste item).

with chanter or shaman haste that can easily jump to 40 dps.

but 26 dps unhasted IS actually the norm.

Oldoaktree
09-27-2002, 03:07 PM
WHICH IS YOUR ROLE..NOT A CH CHAIN ON THE MAIN TANK.


I am not sure I 100% agree with that. Clerics are indubitibly better at it, but "MY ROLE" is really what my guild needs of me on a given raid.

I really do believe VI recognizes that the game should not be so desperately reliant on a cleric count for any given raid like it is now. Some of those counts need to be quite high.

They even sort of said so explicitly (without mentioning the CH rot itself).

If I were a gambling man, I would gamble that they deliberately set the spell specifically so it was possible for 2 druids or so to replace a missing cleric in a CH rot.

No one likes the job, but hell I will be the first in line to do it if it will help my guild achieve its goals.

Serenya EQ
09-27-2002, 03:27 PM
/quote
Comparing a 60 druid to a 53 cleric is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?
/endquote

Well, since the main choice is whether to use someone to heal with a level 39 spell, or somone to heal with the 58 equivalent plus do stuff, it's not really that disingenuous. Using a 60 cleric in his example would change what exactly? Adding a hammer?

FyyrLuStorm
09-27-2002, 03:27 PM
I had great fun with it.

First usage was on MT on Ixi thing for a cleric friend.

Love the irony.

Need to work on my timing though, lotsa overlap. /smile.

FyyrLuStorm
09-27-2002, 03:29 PM
ps, thanks Scirocco.

Though it does make it look like a not com addy now.

But that's ok too.

Haass
09-27-2002, 03:32 PM
Comparing a 60 druid to a 53 cleric is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

Not at all. between 53 and 60, what does a cleric get? Better buffs, which are still offset by Glades on the entire group Better heals, which are still less effective than CH and TR.

Bottom line, there's nothing a 60 cleric brings to the table that a 53 doesn't, in a slightly less efficient fashion. Both are less useful than a druid now in the XP grind. If I had a 60 cleric to swap with on that account, we'd aego the tanks and then we'd switch to the druid. It's the effiecient thing to do.

Oldoaktree
09-27-2002, 03:33 PM
Well, since the main choice is whether to use someone to heal with a level 39 spell, or somone to heal with the 58 equivalent plus do stuff, it's not really that disingenuous. Using a 60 cleric in his example would change what exactly? Adding a hammer?

Differences:

Aego vs. POTG (yes, the buff was figured into the persons argument)

Mana pool of a 53 cleric vs a 60 cleric

MoK

Hammer (yup it would matter)

The other cleric heals (including the hugely efficient HoT spells and the recently added ones as well)

Revivinisce

Higher level cleric nukes that are closer in dmg to a druids (probably would be enough mana to nuke)

Greater hp pool and ability to withstand melee/resist spells in the higher cleric vs the lower.


There are a tremendous lot of advantages to a 60 cleric. And no you really can't compare it just on the merits of the one heal spell. A 53 druid with a 400 mana heal would also not be able to last very long.

Kailyssa DarkWynd
09-27-2002, 03:35 PM
Not managed to be at a raid since it went in so i will find out tomorrow :) being a evocation druid that NEVER groups unless its for a raid or mob for friends quest/epic its gonna be interesting indeed :)

nieros
09-27-2002, 03:44 PM
Intresting.
Ntov tonight.

Pulled all of eashens guards at once. ya ya, bit of a mistake.
However.....

1 warrior on one guard <tank001>
1 druid on the warrior.
Dmg shield him
And start healing

Several chants of HEAL <tank001>...

Nieros shouts, Look I got it its ok

More chants of KEEP AN EYE ON <tank001>

Again nieros shouts, ITS OK I GOT HIM COVERED

Tank001 laughs and says get me a cleric now crap druid healing ...

By this stage I already healed him a few times.

I rant saying 'LOOK IGNORE IT I HAVE TANK001 IN HAND DEAL WITH OTHER PEOPLE'

Everyone assumes at this point a cleric has started healing tank001 anyway.

Every other guard killed and multiple hatchlings dead and me and this tank still going strong with me at 70% mana still.

Once all is dead I simply cough.
Say 'ahem, whats that about druids poxy healing tank001?'

Tank001 raises an eyebrow.

Nieros states, you do know those heals were me right ?

Tank001 falls of chair.
Oh. Right.
Bugger.

Love it ! :)

<-- happy

- nieros

Tudamorf
09-27-2002, 04:06 PM
Aldarion says: but 26 dps unhasted IS actually the norm.

Maybe, but I was talking about hasted tanks, since that's the normal grouping situation. It also depends, of course, on what you're fighting. Against low blue XP mobs, a high end tank can reach 80-90 DPS, whereas in very difficult areas, the DPS figure will drop.

By the way, did I mention that when I was in CT and Sebilis for XP, I saw quite a number of clerics and shamans LFG, but NO druids LFG? I'm telling you, there is soon going to be a severe cleric backlash coupled with nerf demands because clerics have been rendered irrelevant for anything other than large, multi-group raids. Clerics weren't really needed before for XP, and now they're definitely not needed. How are they going to reach raid level XP/AAXP when no one needs to group with them?

Oldoaktree
09-27-2002, 04:10 PM
ROFL tuda....false conclusion reached in a heartbeat. You usually reason out your arguments better than that.

Druids have not tried to go lfg with the new spell that much yet in all likelihood. I really doubt we have overnight overcome the value of slow, or real CH plus Revivinisce.

The "who is lfg" argument has been disproved over and over again, whether it is druids making the argument (I have myself lol) or others.

It is meaningless unless you actually study who comes into a zone over time and LFG, vs who acutally gets them. If 14 shamans go to CT in a night for instance, not all of them might get groups. If 3 druids went, they all might. Without knowing those real numbers you can conclude absolutely nothing from a snapshot of who is sitting at a zone LFG at any given time. Nothing at all.

And such a study would need to be sustained over several play sessions to build a large enough data sample.

Tudamorf
09-27-2002, 04:16 PM
I wasn't attempting to draw any scientific conclusions Oldoaktree, just pointing out what I saw, which was very unusual in my experience. It could very well be that on average druids aren't getting groups more often, but I have an unconfirmed, untested feeling that this will change in the near future once everyone sees how druids have transformed into a god class for XP.

Oldoaktree
09-27-2002, 04:18 PM
which will last for all of 3 more weeks, when tank hp's start climbing to the point that we can no longer viably heal them with TR.

Put me with a 9k tank and have me keep him alive in CT along with keep some lizard AoE dmg healed and you will see me sweating for mana again.

I am enjoying the interlude, but the world is about to change and our wonderful new heal (and it really is wonderful) will not buy us a lot of exp groups for very long.

Of course I should say my example is false. With PoP, the exp zones are going to shift again. CT will become the new seb (safe exp grind zone), and the great loot/great exp/ need a cleric zones will all be in the planes...and that is where everyone is going to want to be.

Scirocco
09-27-2002, 04:21 PM
Tudamorf, send me some of what you're smoking. I wanna feel like a god!

Oldoaktree
09-27-2002, 04:23 PM
And I still wouldn't knock a clerics dmg output. Their nukes are pretty strong as it is, and they also now have a melee option (and pet that is really a low cost dot) that let them output sustained dmg for little or no mana cost. Not super high DPS iwth the storebought hammer perhaps, but hte dropped ones from Ssra are supposed to be a different matter altogether.

Even with this new heal I can't afford to blow a lot of mana nuking in an exp group...I will be sucking fumes too soon and that will mean med breaks, which no one would put up with.

Tudamorf
09-27-2002, 04:41 PM
Oldoaktree says: Put me with a 9k tank and have me keep him alive in CT along with keep some lizard AoE dmg healed and you will see me sweating for mana again.

What does a tank's HP have to do with it, as long as it's over 3,900? If you can keep them healed in CT when they have 5K, you can keep them healed in CT if they have 100K HP.

Now if you're saying that PoP XP will require far more healing, you may have a point. But it's pure speculation, and while we're speculating, somehow I doubt PoP will require 3x the healing, putting druids back into the position pre-TR.

In the meantime, druids have been made into true XP gods, encompassing not only the primary healer role in XP groups, but also the teleporter and secondary damage dealer.

SoulforgerMountcalm
09-27-2002, 04:53 PM
Our nukes are a joke on any mob with the slightest MR. We are limited to Magic nukes alone. Nothing beats dumping 325man per nuke to read 16mg 41dmg 79dmg 324dmg. You have the option to switch and also have a fire debuff.

Don't want to pull agro from nuking and healing? Just toss low agro dots. The cleric hammer is nice, it is one of the few things we have going for us DPS wise. Then again the faster the mob dies the less use a hammer / any dot is.

Our melee option is a joke, sorry but it really is. Pre nerf the hammer was nice yet since the nerf it is just a light source and stat item for most clerics. The 58 Hammer is not that much different from the nerfed 56 hammer and the dps stats on the 60 hammer do not have me holding my breath.

I do agree with one key point that is brought up time and time again with heals. The only heal you need is the one that gets the job done. Just because HP skyrocket does not mean tanks will be dropping 5K a pull in HP. AC will also be going up along with stat bonuses and DPS.

I have heard people say slow is the best heal, I do not agree. DPS is the best way to avoid heavy healing along with CC / mez. Slows do not protect you from PBAoE casters or dd nukes. Slows are viable if not vital in some encounters but DPS really determines what a group can and can not do.

Be certain of one thing, DPS will also skyrocket. Many clerics knew a 3K heal would be a powerful spell because we know what we heal for on most CHs. With todays DPS / CC and Slow a true CH is not really needed in many groups. For most a 3K heal will do esp stacked with shaman slows.

Broomhilda
09-27-2002, 04:55 PM
Ok, if Druids are gods, then what the hell are Shamans? They got practically the same heal, and have the 70% slow, haste, regens, canni, torpor, nice pet, focus, disease resists, etc.

We all knew just how powerful Shamans were before the heal, think about after. So if Druids are Gods, whats that make Shamans?

We're definitely not Gods. We're just adequate healers now. With Slowers we can do alot more, just like a Clerics could. Without Slowers, in tough places, Clerics excel.

Arrysi
09-27-2002, 05:53 PM
experience is good so far...though a few tanks are probably still traumatized by being knocked unconsious before my heal landed. (erm...was still testing the the spell when i learned that casters can change the amount of damage pretty darn fast.) i can not complain at all about this spell. :) oh yeah, this spell is also pretty raid friendly too. i was the primary healer for my group and had little trouble keeping people alive. /cheer

i was wrong in thinking this spell would be useless on raids...

brum15
09-27-2002, 06:34 PM
Problem is broom is that with tanks steadily improving ac and damage mitigation there just are not that many tough places. Remember before the heal went in and everyone said "yeah but CT will still require a cleric" IT DONT.

With the improved damage mitigation and ac of tanks and super increased dps of groups it just doesnt take too much healing any more. Both druids and clerics will have extra mana. The question is-- What do both of them have to spend it on? Cleric nukes have a loooonnnnggg recast time. And as far as nuking and meleeing--well whenever you cast a spell you quit meleeing til the spell goes off--that is why hybrids got the decreased casting time on their spells. So we kind of have to choose between nuking or melee. Our melee is not much better now than nuking due to the serious nerf they did on the hammer. So we are stuck with a nuke that does less damage, has a longer recast time and is magic based only. That wont get us groups.

Also as far as people saying that clerics took 2 steps forward and you took one. Well out of the three heals we got-only one is useful and was not as big of a jump as what you got. Now admitted you needed it for groups. So group wise you came up on us since the hammer really only equals the nuking we had before and any benefit we got there would be about as useful as your dots being able to stack. yaulp 5 only helps us if we melee and since meleeing isnt much more attractive than nuking (except for the fun value) probably wont be worth my time continually mashing the button. I would rather sit-get up nuke-sit.

The extra two heals we got are about equal to you getting the 8 ports (4 self and 4 group) to luclin. Thanks for the spell--but I had plenty of that variety already.

Solo wise--WE SUCK
utility wise--WE SUCK

verant did nothing to fix this--well they did and then they promptly turned around and nerfed it to oblivion.

I do totally expect to see clerics getting shoved out of exp grind groups. And yeah a backlash will probably be there and verant will probably respond with their stupid response to everything NERF. Would be much better if they were proactive and gave us something to use in groups like an aura which added to atk, save, mana regen, ac and hps of everyone in our group. Would be like bard spells where we had to be in group to get it to take effect and would stack with any spells or bard songs.

For solo exp, put in about 6 undead only zones and in those zones any spell other than undead specific ones only do 1/2 damage. That would keep others from quadding in zone. That keeps us out of your hair in your solo spots and protects ours also. Also increase clerics damage mitigation when they get hit to other plate classes. We woud still get hit more often than tanks due to lower dodge and no parry or disc, but when we did get hit we would take less damage. We are the only plate class that takes damage on a chain table.

Oh and for those of you who have seen my post--you know the other thing. INVIS please pretty pretty please

Fayne Dethe
09-27-2002, 07:21 PM
I am so tired of hearing "clerics will never be wanted for xp groups again." Druids have never been the main contenders for xp groups, it has always been shamans, yet again and again we hear the same rhetoric that druids are stealing groups. This new druid heal wont change matters any. You say druids have all these wonderful spells that groups are dying to get, yeah right. Clerics get stuns, nukes, roots, damage shields, a viable pet, hammer in conjunction with new yaulp, etc. The only different thing druids add to the table is evac, which I have not had to used in quite a while, and snare which many other classes have via spell or weapons. Really effective grouping is all about slowing the mobs and which case CH isnt even necessary.

Also, I find it amusing that people are complaining that a level 53 cleric wont be prefered over a OMG level 60 druid.

Anway, regarding TR day one, I had nothing to contribute on day one because I couldnt find a group and ended up quadding. Wow big change there. I tried it out tonight at raids, and it was nice to heal the modding clerics, but its not good enough of a heal to be used against AL, Cursed, etc. Although, it can also be useful when helping to heal non-MTs low on health from dots.

Oldoaktree
09-27-2002, 07:24 PM
What does a tank's HP have to do with it, as long as it's over 3,900? If you can keep them healed in CT when they have 5K, you can keep them healed in CT if they have 100K HP.



Yes, in the same way I could do it before with NT. You are right though. And what is true in CT is probably irrelevant. I had revised my post maybe after you saw it but yes my real thought is that exp zones will be moving to the planes and dmg out put and tank hp will both be going up in a way that we can't keep up with.

Of course nothing can be known for certain until PoP comes out, but I have at least 2 expansions that back up my premise and I doubt very much life will change all that much.

The biggest change I think will affect everyone? Raid experience. Imagine how game changing it would be if you could actually be working exp while raiding. Then EVERYONE wins. There will still be exp grouping of course, but some of the pressure for finding the exp groups in the down time will be taken away by getting exp while doing what many would rather be doing anyway.

No point in fretting about it until it is out, but I think any sturm and drang over how TR works pre-PoP should not be worried about overmuch. We will be better off yes (and if I have not said it enough already I love having the new heal) but I doubt that we need to be assembling care packages for the clerics just yet.

And if any of the three priest classes is the god of exp, it has always and will always be the shaman. Slow > all. I don't have issues with that, but it strikes me as fundamentally false to imply that a 3k heal puts us so far beyond a class with a 2k heal and a 75% (soon to be 80%) slow. The argument holds no water.

vowelumos
09-27-2002, 07:37 PM
On average it would take me 3 to 5 min to solo a Mature Wyvern. After soloing 4 I would be LOM without C3

You do know this is the same or better than druids will do root dotting them? Mature Wyverns make a doable for some , but very high mana quad so root dotting is really the only thing to compare them too. Without using Druid epic , 4 to 5 minutes is common, with epic 3 might be about right. You guys really need to learn that everyone has downtime soloing and it is not all it is cracked up to be.

L1ndara
09-27-2002, 08:56 PM
What does a tank's HP have to do with it, as long as it's over 3,900? If you can keep them healed in CT when they have 5K, you can keep them healed in CT if they have 100K HP.

Because at 9k CH is over twice as efficient as TR which means while the druid is sitting on their @#%$ getting mana for the next TR the cleric is nuking or banging away with the hammer.

In the meantime, druids have been made into true XP gods, encompassing not only the primary healer role in XP groups, but also the teleporter and secondary damage dealer.

Sorry Tuda, but unlike you our druids can't cast haste, slow, mez, KEI etc.

Calling druids XP gods is incredibly naive. I really have to question if you even play the game. A 60 shaman will outnuke and outheal a druid, offer crowd control and far superior buffs including haste. Clerics will handily outheal druids, offer better buffs, and if any amount of healing is actually needed the cleric is going to outdamage the druid too. You've consistantly proven with statements like this you have a very poor grasp of the game or more likely you're simply trolling.

Fayne Dethe
09-27-2002, 09:41 PM
Lindara, you hit the nail on the head. Comments like Tuda's are just to feed the trolls and to try to get all the clerics stirred up, its absolutely ridiculous to call druids xp gods and has 0 basis in what I would like to call reality. Its like the world is coming to an end if a group picks a 60th druid to heal rather than a level 46 cleric, something must be wrong. As I previously stated, an efficient xp group is based around slow, not CH. Throw in a druid in a group without slow, he wont have any time to be casting our supposed uber grouping spells other than healing. Clerics are better at that with efficient HoT spells that gives them more leeway to cast other spells. In addition, if you try to point out all the supposed utility druids bring, one can also point out all the various utility clerics have that people ignore (stuns, nukes, root, resses, 2 types of damage shields, pet that would be the equivalent of a druid dot, etc).

Tudamorf
09-27-2002, 10:03 PM
L1ndara says: You've consistantly proven with statements like this you have a very poor grasp of the game or more likely you're simply trolling.

No, I just always play with an enchanter or bard (usually enchanter). I find it odd that everyone keeps considering each class in isolation, instead of seeing what a druid will offer in a typical group setup. A typical group WILL have someone to cover crowd control and mana regen. And either crowd control class can easily cover slow and haste.

Now, assuming you have an enchanter or bard already, pre-TR, shamans still had a healing edge over Druids due to Torpor, which was three times more efficient than NT. That allowed shamans to handle healing situations where the Druid would simply run out of mana.

But post-TR, Druids heal with an efficiency that rivals shamans, for more HP/sec, and most importantly, with no negative slow/snare side effects! On top of that, compared to shamans, Druids add two critical abilities -- snare and evac -- as well as much greater fast damage potential for tough situations.

It's no wonder the shaman is out of a job, because he's been outclassed. All he has is Torpor (which is gimpy by comparison to TR, because it kills a tank's damage output, and which requires level 60 and is a rare drop), a gimpy version of TR (that doesn't match the Druid), Chloroblast (which is too slow and weak for serious healing), meaningless stat buffs, and insane mana regen that is useful for, well, nothing, since he can't do damage very fast even if he had all the mana in the world.

Suffice it to say, I have a feeling you'll see many more shamans soloing for XP or sitting LFG from now on. At least shamans can solo very well.

What about clerics? Sure they have their neat little hammer toys, but they're not a primary damage class, and they're not going to be picked over a real damage dealer for just damage. While they have a 10K CH, in XP groups it's just not needed, as even the 3K CH is overkill in many places. And they can't snare or evac.

So clerics really boil down to res. While res is important in some situations, it doesn't require a cleric in the group, any more than KEI requires an enchanter in the group. Plus, you can often pick up a paladin. So given the choice between cleric and Druid, I'm picking the druid, who gives me everything I need while only taking a single slot in the group.

It's just too bad clerics can't solo as well as shamans, as they're going end up really screwed by this ascension of the Druid class.

Fayne Dethe says: As I previously stated, an efficient xp group is based around slow, not CH.

Agreed. But what if you already have someone to slow and haste (enchanter or bard)? Do you STILL think shamans are better than Druids in such a group, and if so, why?

SuburbanLife
09-27-2002, 10:24 PM
Holy Cow!!!!

Our guild took down Vindi(first time) today and in short this heal is the reason why we succeeded (also help from a 60 war(epic'ed) from uber guild gave us a slight edge which we were missing.

Anyhow we had CH cycle of Cleric Druid Cleric Druid Cleric Druid, then myself and another druid were assigned to heal rampage tankers, anyhow my target got smoked in about 5 seconds, only was able to cast about 2 TR before he went down.

So what did I do?

Well I did what any druid would do who just let the guild leader die, its called Egress =) Just kiddin

I jumped in on the CH cycle, about 10 seconds before Vindi went down the MT died, aggro had pinged around for a few but in the end there were only 3 deaths, not bad for first Vindi kill.

And the reason we succeeded -- Tunares Renewal =)

-Bartleby Windtalker

Riggen
09-27-2002, 10:28 PM
Remember there's been a promise of more Cleric changes to come. It's a little surprising that we didn't see some hint of it at the same time that Tunare's Renewal went live. I presume that Verant wants to evaluate things step by step in the same manner that they evaluated the hammer and pet upgrades before pushing the SHM/DRU heals live.

Give it a couple weeks or so and see what happens.

SuburbanLife
09-27-2002, 11:20 PM
Well I hope that they don't give clerics too much more power, granted I do think they need to have the ability to solo, not so much as where we have several options available to us (Root/Dot, PBae, Quadding, Charm Kiting).

The hammer was a nice step up for them but I have watched clerics try and solo a mere goranga gatherer in Maidens Eye. Now remember, this cleric was from the most uber guild on our server, only one that can go into VT. It took her around 5 minutes to take it out, and she had to constantly back off to heal herself.

I just think that if Rich Waters truthfully means that all priests should be balanced in group/raid/solo situations, the clerics should have a couple/few more tools to their arsenal to help them with that.

And as for druids, I am extremely pleased with Tunares Renewal, the next step I think should be a group heal for those AE mobs or lower the casting time & mana cost signifigantly on Natures Touch to be more in line with Chloroblast, kind of like a shammy keeping AEgroup alive with Torpor.

-Bartleby Windtalker

SoulforgerMountcalm
09-28-2002, 01:10 AM
You do know this is the same or better than druids will do root dotting them? Mature Wyverns make a doable for some , but very high mana quad so root dotting is really the only thing to compare them too. Without using Druid epic , 4 to 5 minutes is common, with epic 3 might be about right. You guys really need to learn that everyone has downtime soloing and it is not all it is cracked up to be.

This will be my last post regarding this. I am a 60 cleric with 24AA Ssra, ToV and other higher end gear. It is just as crazy to compare a 53 clerics heals vs a 60 druid as it is to compare a 50 something druid w/o epic vs a 60 cleric with some pretty nice gear and 24AA.

The fact that it took me 3-5min to drop light blue to low end dark blue con mobs 4x mobs = 16 - 20min + 10 min med time is not what I call soloing. Or a balanced solo solution for the priest classes vs what a druid or a shaman can do.

[quote] Well I hope that they don't give clerics too much more power, granted I do think they need to have the ability to solo, not so much as where we have several options available to us (Root/Dot, PBae, Quadding, Charm Kiting).

The hammer was a nice step up for them but I have watched clerics try and solo a mere goranga gatherer in Maidens Eye. Now remember, this cleric was from the most uber guild on our server, only one that can go into VT. It took her around 5 minutes to take it out, and she had to constantly back off to heal herself. [/qoute]

This is a pretty good example of how soloing goes for most clerics.

Anyways enjoy the heal and most of all happy hunting.

Soulforger Mountcalm
60 Cleric of Brell

Haass
09-28-2002, 02:30 AM
This will be my last post regarding this. I am a 60 cleric with 24AA Ssra, ToV and other higher end gear. It is just as crazy to compare a 53 clerics heals vs a 60 druid as it is to compare a 50 something druid w/o epic vs a 60 cleric with some pretty nice gear and 24AA.


No, seriously..what drug are you people on? What massive utility abilities does a cleric get between 53 and 60. MoK, MoR. That's it folks. In essence, there is ZERO difference between a 53 cleric and 60 cleric in terms of overall utility to a group and that minor utility is now totally overshadowed by a druid who can heal your average XP group tank exactly the same as your cleric AND he brings utility to the table. SoE, Invis, Succor, Ports, Glades, Damage Shields, Charm, Regrowth, 2 different element nukes (3 really)....

I'm telling you straight up, even if our cleric was 60, we'd still be benching him for the druid. We'd aego the tanks, and we'd log him off. This is not me being choosy over which random person i'm deciding to group with, this is me choosing which of my own characters I would use. There is no xp group situation where we will ever use the cleric again. MoR is weak seeing as how Legacy of Spike is 20 DS for the group, and it's unresistable. MoK is weak considering regrowth is mana free off the breastplate.

You wanna start in on shaman too? Get over slow. Just get over it. i'm so sick and tired of people whining about slow. Guess what, you can slow with a chanter, you can slow with a bard, hell..when I don't play my shaman, I slow with my warrior's Truncheon. Just because shaman have the ability doesn't make them gods any more than you having damage shields does. Lets consider a duo. Warrior + priest.

Warrior + shaman = mob is slowed, shaman has to heal once every 2 or 3 mobs. Shaman spends 250 mana on each slow tho, and typically has a much smaller mana pool than either of the other priests. Shaman's time is spent cannabalizing and keeping his mana up.

Warrior + Cleric = Mob is not slowed, but warrior is buffed fairly well..lets say 5k'ish hp. Cleric starts casting Ch when warrior goes berserk, CH heals just about 3khp. Cleric can also use MoR for 15 point DS.

Warrior + druid = mob is not slowed, warrior has slightly less hp, but DRUID SPENDS SAME AMOUNT OF MANA HEALING WARRIOR AS THE CLERIC DOES. Druid also has 32 point DS, and doesn't have to root runners, because druid has snare.

Warrior + cleric has been known to work absolutely fine forever now. Now warrior + druid works BETTER. Forget the rez aspect. You can get a rez from anyone these days. If you as a druid can't keep up with heals now without a slower, then maybe you should ask the clerics how they've been doing it all these years, because your heal is EXACTLY the same on a 5khp tank as the cleric's is.

It totally baffles me how some people just can not look at this game from an objective perspective and can only see out of their characters eyes.

SilleyEskimo
09-28-2002, 03:04 AM
I used it exclusively in chardok last night. 59 druid, 59 warrior, 54 bard, and 53 chanter.

Held fort, zone in and zone out.

I was Healer and Puller (with ensnare). I immediately added WD to almost every pull. I nuked when we had to burn several at once. I evacced twice thanks to trains. I buffed everyone with Girdle of Karana, SoE outside, PotC and Regrowth. I added my clickable DS to our tank. I got haste and DEX buffs and meleed with my Hiero crook, procing about 2-3 times per fight. On my tank last night, I was casting Complete Heals.

I was extremely impressed and had more fun in that exp group than I have had in ages. Good times. Hats off to the new heal. I am impressed in the difference a simple 400 mana spell can make.

ShadowfrostXev
09-28-2002, 03:57 AM
/boggle Haass

MoK is free off a breastplate too.

Aside from MoK, MoR and Aego (which you mentioned), Clerics get the whole Ethereal line, Yaulp V, Unswerving Hammer, and the whole proccing summoned hammer line between 53 and 60. These things are not insignificant. ;)

Please get a grip ! I do see the point that you're trying to make (which is that an xp group is better off with a druid) but you're seriously exaggerating and overstating your case.

L1ndara
09-28-2002, 05:03 AM
No, I just always play with an enchanter or bard (usually enchanter). I find it odd that everyone keeps considering each class in isolation, instead of seeing what a druid will offer in a typical group setup. A typical group WILL have someone to cover crowd control and mana regen. And either crowd control class can easily cover slow and haste.

I rarely group with an enchanter and only occasionally with a bard. Neither are what I'd call a common class.

Now, assuming you have an enchanter or bard already, pre-TR, shamans still had a healing edge over Druids due to Torpor, which was three times more efficient than NT. That allowed shamans to handle healing situations where the Druid would simply run out of mana.

Torpor PLUS 75% slow PLUS 3x the mana regen.

But post-TR, Druids heal with an efficiency that rivals shamans, for more HP/sec, and most importantly, with no negative slow/snare side effects! On top of that, compared to shamans, Druids add two critical abilities -- snare and evac -- as well as much greater fast damage potential for tough situations.

There are many more classes that provide snare than the 2 classess, bards and enchanters, which you seem to somehow expect druids to always group with, one of them being bards. So saying we offer this to a group is frankly silly, calling it a critical ability is laughable, next you'll be saying we offer SoW to groups. Evac is similiarly a non arguement, while it can be useful it's generally only so because of lack of crowd control/pulling ability and no one seriously looks for it unless they're going deep in a dungeon and don't want to have to walk back out.

Burst damage is almost never useful and in the case of a druid who is supposed to be main healer it just won't be happening. 75% slow > killing a mob quickly.

It's no wonder the shaman is out of a job, because he's been outclassed.

Put down the crack pipe, sheesh.

All he has is Torpor (which is gimpy by comparison to TR, because it kills a tank's damage output, and which requires level 60 and is a rare drop), a gimpy version of TR (that doesn't match the Druid), Chloroblast (which is too slow and weak for serious healing), meaningless stat buffs, and insane mana regen that is useful for, well, nothing, since he can't do damage very fast even if he had all the mana in the world.

LMAO. You amazingly ignore the fact that shamans have 75% slow, probably the most powerful spell in the game, maybe because you're still deluding that druids can cast Forlorn Deeds? Torpor is rarely needed in combat, it's negative effects are often negligable. Shamans can't do damage fast so that makes them useless? LMAO, sorry bucky but that is just so stupid in so many ways I'm having a hard time typing I'm laughing so hard. Apparently your druid somehow has unlimited mana to play with and can chaincast moonfire forever, really, really, lay off the crack pipe, a shaman is going to easily outdamage a druid in a group unless they're too busy doing more important things.

Suffice it to say, I have a feeling you'll see many more shamans soloing for XP or sitting LFG from now on. At least shamans can solo very well.

Ahh yes, their buffs are useless, their haste and slow meaningless because every group has an enchanter, their damage less than a druid because druids have unlimited mana, their healing not needed because every group has a druid. Man, you must play on one seriously @#%$ up server because your EQ just doesn't match everyone else's.

What about clerics? Sure they have their neat little hammer toys, but they're not a primary damage class, and they're not going to be picked over a real damage dealer for just damage.

LOL, and druids will be picked for damage? Oh wait, your version of druids have no mana concerns, I forgot. But apparently your clerics do so can't chaincast judgement.

While they have a 10K CH, in XP groups it's just not needed, as even the 3K CH is overkill in many places. And they can't snare or evac.

Sure, play up snare and evac, you look like a noob, my god.

So clerics really boil down to res. While res is important in some situations, it doesn't require a cleric in the group, any more than KEI requires an enchanter in the group. Plus, you can often pick up a paladin. So given the choice between cleric and Druid, I'm picking the druid, who gives me everything I need while only taking a single slot in the group.

So in your world of every group having an enchanter + paladin + warrior, with no other class that can cast snare, they go to probably the one place in the game where they need evac but a druid can keep the enchanter alive, where the mobs are so frail a druid's 12k/minute half the mana pool burst damage will matter, where mobs die so fast the shaman can't land a nuke but give so much XP that they can be pulled slowly so the druid can get all their mana back between each.

You my friend, are playing a completely different game than the rest of us.

It's just too bad clerics can't solo as well as shamans, as they're going end up really screwed by this ascension of the Druid class.

LMAO!

You know, this does explain something. In your world druids have unlimited mana so could always chain cast NT infinitly. No wonder you thought druids were so good before.

L1ndara
09-28-2002, 05:17 AM
I was Healer and Puller (with ensnare). I immediately added WD to almost every pull. I nuked when we had to burn several at once. I evacced twice thanks to trains. I buffed everyone with Girdle of Karana, SoE outside, PotC and Regrowth. I added my clickable DS to our tank. I got haste and DEX buffs and meleed with my Hiero crook, procing about 2-3 times per fight. On my tank last night, I was casting Complete Heals.

I was extremely impressed and had more fun in that exp group than I have had in ages. Good times. Hats off to the new heal. I am impressed in the difference a simple 400 mana spell can make.

You either have an amazing standing mana regen (Mind Wrack + KEI + bard?) or you were killing extreeemely slowly. You pulled, meleed, healed and WDed for each mob?

Really the only thing the heal bought you over NT was it freed up the mana to WD or freed up the non med time to be the puller. You could have been most of the same amazing proccing pulling engine of healing destruction with the old heal.

Gattwin Greyleaf
09-28-2002, 05:53 AM
Once again Tudamorf hits the nail on the head with his last post.

TR moves druids from last to first in terms of the ideal main healer in a typical aaxp group. Most cleric CH's are only healing 3k in level 60 xp groups. Anything over 1600 hitpoints makes it better then any other cleric heal in terms of mana/hp. That's why many Clerics were upset when this heal was announced. It's basically the 2nd best heal in the game and ties with the best the majority of the time.

all 3 priests can be the main healer just fine, just druids add the most in terms of other abilities (Nuke, DoT, SoW/SoE, Snare, Evac/Ports, Damage Shield, Regen, HP Buff, CoSeasons).

Gattwin Greyleaf
09-28-2002, 05:56 AM
I rarely group with an enchanter and only occasionally with a bard. Neither are what I'd call a common class.


I *always* group with an enchanter or bard. 98% of the time. What game are you playing?

edit: Enchanters are, by far, the most valuable grouping class in EQ. Not only do they add mana regen, they have the best spell haste and can slow and mez. All four abilities together are awesome for an xp group. If you rarely group with enchanters, you need to start. You probably don't see many LFG because they already got one.

Butor
09-28-2002, 06:01 AM
But a 3k heal breaks the XP grind so badly that clerics do not have a place anymore.

Gimme a break will you

It just means that 1 class between 15 will not be a absolute necessity in a 6 slots group. Wow. You're right, TR is soooo unbalancing.

I'm an evoc druid, I group everyday with an exarch, I couldn't do half the job he does healing so our XP flows at the right speed. Even with TR, wich is a very cool spell.

Stop throwing at us your 2 boxing stuff, it is certainly not the way most people level their chars, and it certainly doesn't represent any kind of truth vis a vis the healing situation in EQ now that TR is out.

Aaeamdar
09-28-2002, 06:29 AM
Don't Clerics have their own boards to cry on?

Batou062671
09-28-2002, 07:25 AM
You know... My thought is this... I'd STILL rather have a cleric in the group! If none are available, at least I can fill in now, but I'd STILL rather have a cleric for rez, symbol, more efficient heals and some added dps. Call my crazy but I'd prefer to NOT be primary healer.

Nicholaa Darkling
09-28-2002, 08:07 AM
Well the first night TR was out I was the main healer for a guild group in chardok. 60 necro, 59 pally, 53 monk and myself. We held the Bk and surounding area very easily. The pally kept telling me how much he really loved my new heal :) This was well worth waiting for.

Nicholaa
59 Druid
Order of the Keg aka the guild formerly known as Drunken Bandits

Tudamorf
09-28-2002, 08:45 AM
L1ndara says: I rarely group with an enchanter and only occasionally with a bard.

My whole post was centered around grouping with one of these two classes. I think it's silly not to pick one of the two for your group for multiple reasons, and enchanters in particular are pretty common. But, if you don't group with either, I would buy your argument that the shaman is still competitive with the druid.

With an enchanter or bard though, the shaman drops down to the bottom of the list in desirability for your group.

L1ndara
09-28-2002, 09:23 AM
TR moves druids from last to first in terms of the ideal main healer in a typical aaxp group. Most cleric CH's are only healing 3k in level 60 xp groups.

3k is probably the low end of what I CH for, not the average, even without shaman buffs. Don't forget druids buff around 700 hps less than clerics, so if both classes CH/TR at the same number of HPs left the cleric one will heal at least 700 more hps. Of course nothing stops the meleers from getting Aego before joining, and sometimes we just forget about even trying to keep HP buffs up on the puller because of dispells but the monks are running around with over 4k unbuffed anyway.

With PoP it's looking like HPs could shoot through the roof and 3k could be a 30% heal in an XP group.

Broomhilda
09-28-2002, 12:16 PM
I dont know what CT you all play in, but i'd love to see all these supposed Druid main healers getting the crap beat out of them from the ae rains. You druids are either spoiled by very good pullers or very good CC'ers. Even with Ench slow, they hit hard, like 200+'s to the point that your not doing much offensive nuking. So you Clerics saying we can all of a sudden do all this offense and defensive stuff should get a clue. Sure, sometimes we can, but more often than not we're busy healing and curing, rebuffing, etc. etc. unless your just doing entrance or something.

Fact is Clerics are still the prefered healers in CT, theres no doubt in my mind of that, dont even try and act as though Druids can heal nearly as well in any intense situation. Tudamorf doesnt know anything about whos more desirable, he plays with the same people day in and day out, whats he gonna know about getting into groups? Hes just trolling for an argument against all of us he thinks are whining. Trust me, i spent all day today in CT grouped with a cleric and w/o one with me as a main healer in ltc and 4c, its a Clerics dungeon, no doubt about it.

Oldoaktree
09-28-2002, 12:53 PM
Tuda...

The arguments you are posting almost sound kind of crazy. Sometimes when a person takes a position the inertia of it causes him to keep defending an indefensible position.

I mean, sheesh, Shaman being threatened by our spell?!? That is just mad. They are still the strongest class, and while their heal spell is 1000 less than hours, they still just got a huge bump in their spot healing too.

And they could play main healer effectively before the addition.

I thnk all the druids are happy to have hte new spell. But let it go...we have not taken over the game.

Relbeek Einre
09-28-2002, 01:34 PM
Took 60 monk, chanter, and warrior with me into Umbral Plains today to try out the spell..

... I came!

Oh My God... Oh look my monk is down to 30 percent (cast) VWOOP! Could heal him for up to 2652 at a pop (which was 75% of his hitpoints) at the same mana cost as NR. With KEI, POTG/POTC, Mask of the Hunter and FT6 I never fell below 75% mana.

I'm in love, thanks.

Gimli fan
09-28-2002, 02:28 PM
Dont even have the heal yet I am only 57.

My cleric loves her CH though so I imagine the PCheal will be nice, perhaps even allowing me to get into a group.

Thanks to all the pioneers who blaze a path for the Druid on raids as well.

/bow

Fozzick
09-28-2002, 03:15 PM
Anyone know if Focus 3 healing items or Healing adept aa skill affects the druid cheal ?

SilleyEskimo
09-28-2002, 03:49 PM
"You either have an amazing standing mana regen (Mind Wrack + KEI + bard?) or you were killing extreeemely slowly."

Potc, C2, some FT. So no, it was nothing steller and we pulled as soon as they spawned.

"You pulled, meleed, healed and WDed for each mob?"

Yes, that is what I said. I will type it again if it will help.

"Really the only thing the heal bought you over NT was it freed up the mana to WD or freed up the non med time to be the puller."

It actually did more. It allowed us to take the camp without a cleric/shaman, which is something that was previously not possible for a group of those levels. MoBs spawned too fast for me to keep up with CB, regen, and GH. We would've been confined to either zone in or zone out. Insread, we took zone in, zone out, and fort. I only had to heal the tank about every 2.5 kills and was easily able to med that mana back. Pulling is cake anyway at fort in chardok, almost everything is within casting distance.

"You could have been most of the same amazing proccing pulling engine of healing destruction with the old heal."

With a cleric/shaman, yes. Without a cleric/shaman, no.

In short, I was the jack-of-all-trades that I love to be in EQ. The difference was, my healing is now more in line with my other skills.

Tudamorf
09-28-2002, 06:33 PM
Broomhilda says: but i'd love to see all these supposed Druid main healers getting the crap beat out of them from the ae rains.

Heh, you masochist. Have you considered moving out of the AE radius?

Even with Ench slow, they hit hard, like 200+'s to the point that your not doing much offensive nuking.

With enchanter slow, Nature's Touch+Nature's Recovery can keep your tanks alive quite well. Now with TR, it's trivial. They hit in the 200 range, but unless your tank is level 50 and naked, the average hits will be much, much lower, and should require a TR every minute or so on average. I can't even imagine how you could not have enough mana to do that plus throw moonfires at will.

I suppose this might be a good time to mention that I was able to do primary healing in Ssra first floor PRE-TR. With TR I now wouldn't hesitate to do the second floor, unslowable elites and all. Since the snakes there make CT look like a joke, you shouldn't have much trouble in CT.

Oldoaktree says: I mean, sheesh, Shaman being threatened by our spell?!? That is just mad. They are still the strongest class, and while their heal spell is 1000 less than hours, they still just got a huge bump in their spot healing too.

Nope, that's just it. Shamans had TR-like efficiency before, but at the price of a heal-over-time with negative side effects. Druids didn't. That made shamans better healers than druids, because a druid couldn't match the healing efficiency.

Now druids got TR, which has roughly the efficiency of torpor, with no negative side effects, and faster HP/sec. Shamans got a spell with 2/3 the power -- one that is even less efficient than what they already had in torpor. In effect, druids got a "super torpor" as a new spell while shamans got a "gimpy torpor" as a new spell.

So while shamans were the superior healer before, now druids are clearly the superior healer, with TR and Nature's Touch for really fast and large patch heals. So if slow is already covered in the group, there is no need for a shaman. In fact, shamans <a href=http://forums.interealms.com/shaman/showthread.php?s=27d823e4d88c17168e31b416373a8228&threadid=5900>are already whining</a> about how they've been screwed by the ascension of the druid class.

And they could play main healer effectively before the addition.

Right. And now they've been outclassed by druids in an important area. That is why I think you will see a backlash in the near future.

Tell me, if a group already has an enchanter (to cover slows and haste) and a druid (to cover healing, snare, evac, and secondary damage), for what do they need a shaman? Absolutely nothing. "Shaman LFG!"

L1ndara
09-28-2002, 10:41 PM
Oh My God... Oh look my monk is down to 30 percent (cast) VWOOP! Could heal him for up to 2652 at a pop (which was 75% of his hitpoints) at the same mana cost as NR. With KEI, POTG/POTC, Mask of the Hunter and FT6 I never fell below 75% mana.

Get a horse. =D Not many zones it's useful in (right now) but it's worth it when you play in them.

Hopefully the planes will mostly be outdoor zones and horses still work... I'm not sure VI would just hand us that kind of extra mana regen for boss mob fights, but then I look at how much they upped bardsong and I have more than a little hope. =D We're going to be over +15 more mana/tick with PoP raids, it could very well mean mana is mostly irrelevant for damage dealing and it'll purely be DPS and agro.

L1ndara
09-28-2002, 10:55 PM
"You pulled, meleed, healed and WDed for each mob?"

Yes, that is what I said. I will type it again if it will help.

"Really the only thing the heal bought you over NT was it freed up the mana to WD or freed up the non med time to be the puller."

It actually did more. It allowed us to take the camp without a cleric/shaman, which is something that was previously not possible for a group of those levels. MoBs spawned too fast for me to keep up with CB, regen, and GH. We would've been confined to either zone in or zone out. Insread, we took zone in, zone out, and fort. I only had to heal the tank about every 2.5 kills and was easily able to med that mana back. Pulling is cake anyway at fort in chardok, almost everything is within casting distance.

If you healed the tank every 2.5 kills you were spending close to 900 in WD and 400 in TR per 2.5 kills. 1300 in Chloroblast > 400 in TR. Hence the only thing it bought you was the mana to WD with, or the time to not med but pull instead, as I said. I can cut'n'paste that again if it'll help.

Oldoaktree
09-28-2002, 11:19 PM
Lol...if slow didn't exist, shamans would have gotten the same heal we did.

But slow does.

I am not going to put on the ashes and sack cloth because druids can now get groups.

Of course if one druid gets a group, someone else (perhaps shaman, perhaps cleric) might not get one.

But you want to know what I heard today as I was talking to some guildies about heading to an exp spot in UP? The warrior said "I can't survive that without slow."

Not healing. Slow.

And shamans not only bring slow to the table along with great healing, they also have just about the best tank buffs in the game (with the exception of faster haste from chanter and Aego from cleric, everything else is a Shaman buff if it matters).

I am not by any means gunning for Shaman, but they already have plenty of reasons to be wanted in a group. If anything, the new spells make it more possible that druid/shaman combos are wanted in groups.

None of the shamans in my guild are worried. They know they have no reason to be. Saying they do is just laughable to me.

Broomhilda
09-29-2002, 07:33 AM
"eh, you masochist. Have you considered moving out of the AE radius?"


Are you that naive? Umm, the whole party is taking damage, even if i moved out of range in a place where there isnt much room as it is, there would be at least 3 melee getting the same knock downs to 1/4 life in damage from the waves of AE rains. We at one point had multiple AE rains on us, luckily we had the cleric in the group using EE at the time, and me spot healing, and even then we barely survived. There is no doubt in my mind one Druid couldnt have kept the group alive in that situation, so it makes me wonder where exactly you pull as the sole healer in CT. Because i know your going to get AE rains, unstunnable mobs that CH, clicking between heals and counteract disease, and your also telling us you do all kinds of dps at the same time? Give me a break.

Tudamorf, your full of it. You play in a sheltered environment and claim to speak about class desirability when you have no clue because your rarely if ever 'trying' to get in a group. You exxagerate our abilities, and anybody thats really doing CT will tell you a Druid is not the best choice for a healer there, especially over a Cleric. Who knows, it could be your 90+ AA's that makes you different but i doubt it, i have no idea what your situation truly is, but i do know your not coming with the full truth as usual.

Ever since you were somehow reincarnated as a 60 Druid w/ 90+ AA points for only 2 months has it been?, you've made some ludicrous arguments just to argue. I dont think this is any different. There is no way Druids are Gods and own CT over Clerics. The reality of that statement is so untrue, that i wonder what the reality of your situation is, and what you conveniently leave out in telling us what REALLY happens,....

Haass
09-29-2002, 01:00 PM
Are you that naive? Umm, the whole party is taking damage, even if i moved out of range in a place where there isnt much room as it is, there would be at least 3 melee getting the same knock downs to 1/4 life in damage from the waves of AE rains. We at one point had multiple AE rains on us, luckily we had the cleric in the group using EE at the time, and me spot healing, and even then we barely survived. There is no doubt in my mind one Druid couldnt have kept the group alive in that situation, so it makes me wonder where exactly you pull as the sole healer in CT. Because i know your going to get AE rains, unstunnable mobs that CH, clicking between heals and counteract disease, and your also telling us you do all kinds of dps at the same time? Give me a break.


Tell your dumbass melees to get out of the AE radius. My normal group did just fine in CT with a druid as only healer because we're intelligent. My warrior is MT, there are 2 other melees grouped. When the AE rain goes off, the other 2 melees back off, only my warrior takes damage, he gets CH'd by TR, life goes on.

Intelligence is still the key in many situations..something many druids seem to lack, judging by reading these responses.

Broomhilda
09-30-2002, 05:12 AM
We were moving around 4C when we were getting crazy rains. There was back and front spawn, we had limited room to work with unless we wanted more adds when we already constantly had at least 2 at every pull. You should get over yourself Haas, your no smarter than anyone else you gimp, if we could move out of range without aggroing other stuff, we would have.

I mean if your doing entrance or something the whole time then i'm sure you have plenty of room. Regardless, theres no doubt in my mind a Druid wont be preffered over a Cleric in CT, anybody thats saying that is just flat out lying. Sure, some druids may be able to handle some groups(because it can work depending on a number of factors), but more often than not people will be picking Clerics over Druids everytime.

Merlman
09-30-2002, 09:09 AM
Have you peeps used this spell? Sure doesent sound like it. Try using it in a raid, stand the same place the clerics do and see if you can hit the same targets they are.

This spell is gimped crap. Lets see NT is level 60 and heals for 1k and has a range that makes it useful. Now we get a lvl 58 spell that might heal 3k if you have your head up the @#%$ of the person your trying to heal. This spell is total crap, give me something useful like a group heal or anything to make me needed.

L1ndara
09-30-2002, 09:55 AM
This spell is gimped crap. Lets see NT is level 60 and heals for 1k and has a range that makes it useful.

Same 100 units as CH. No way they'd make it 200. Encounters are designed around CH's range and while TR isn't CH, it's close enough that you only need a dozen druds to make a remarkable simulation instead of 30+ with NT. =D

If you don't have a range focus item, the supple scale armband from KC is really easy to get, just ask the warlord group if you can loot one when their 50th drops for the night. It'll take it up to a massive 110 range. ;D

Panamah
09-30-2002, 09:23 PM
I guess all those tanks are now going to want to "cop a pheal" from the druids?
ROFL!
He kills me. He just utterly kills me.

I think Tudamorf is right on the money, for the most part. I think I have a different view of this than most. I play all 3 priest classes. All are 60 except the shammy who is 58. 2 of the 3 use a lot of mana and are extremely useful in almost every group. 1 sits around full mana 95% of time. All 3 are very useful on raids, but 1 is only really useful for the end encounter on the raid. Getting to the end encounter, she could be playing gems the whole time and no one would notice unless she's in the pullers or MT's groups.

Yes, that'd be the cleric. Ocassionally the cleric gets to play the part of stunner to interrupt heals and gates, but it's really limited to a few zones. If you're doing that, you really have to take down other damage spells, pets, fancy schmancy heals and so on.

I love the druid and shaman heal. I'm glad they're here, don't want them nerfed! But I think clerics are going to suffer. Even so, I don't want the heals nerfed.

That clerics are suffering or will suffer is not your fault nor your responsibility. You can afford to spare a little compassion though and hope they get something to make them useful again in places other than extremely difficult encounters and raids. But even if you don't it doesn't really matter. So nattering back and forth about it is pointless.

Be happy and enjoy your new toys! I know I am and also looking forward to being able to do more stuff with my guild that was out of our reach with our few clerics.

L1ndara
10-01-2002, 05:18 AM
2 of the 3 use a lot of mana and are extremely useful in almost every group. 1 sits around full mana 95% of time. All 3 are very useful on raids, but 1 is only really useful for the end encounter on the raid. Getting to the end encounter, she could be playing gems the whole time and no one would notice unless she's in the pullers or MT's groups.

It sounds like you're trying pretty hard to make your cleric useless. Can't be bothered to nuke or melee with the cleric but can with the druid? *boggle* And you imply that a druid WOULD be missed getting to the bossmob while the cleric isn't, again I have to wonder, HUH?

brum15
10-01-2002, 07:08 AM
It is the stinking recast time on our nukes. I swear I could get up-go make myself a grilled cheese and come back and it still would not have cycled. Plus on a lot of mobs a Magic based nuke is just resisted too much and we dont have any other type of nuke to fall back on.