One of those nifty "I can't sleep" days - so what do I do? I head over to the other class forums where I normally lurk every so often (once or twice a week). Well, I'm happy to say that "The Druid's Grove" has a dubious honor of having its very own thread on most of the other forums. So I started up this thread as a recognition of that fact, and to pay my own homage.

Both Graffe's and EQClerics make for very interesting reading. What strikes me as interesting is that both boards are worried about the druid infringing on their territory. Much like how a pack of wild dogs will defend its range from another intruding group of dogs, the two packs collide, bare fangs, maybe even get into a few scuffles. In the end territory can be gained or lost, but usually a stalemate results.

If our healing gets better, apparently the clerics' world will end. Should our nuking or any form of DPS increase, apparently we crush the wizards' ability to be of use. Conversely, if you keep reading beyond the simple flames, they all agree in some form or fashion that the druid needs to be upgraded due to the fact that the class's need in the high end raid is rather limited. Humorously enough, clerics think we should get buffs/debuffs which help nuking, while wizards think our healing should be improved. What is also of interest is the fact that apparently the "Druid CH" has caused the complete lack of need for any clerics in exp groups on the Test server. Also, the fact that druids can stack DoTs has dropped the need for wizards in the same fashion on the Live servers.

As for the Druid's Grove itself, apparently we are nothing but self-centered whiners who will refuse to see any other side of the coin except the one we support. Also, in case you were not aware, I am a power-hungry moderator who bans people with an total apparent lack of reason. I suppress threads, close them, move them, delete them with total abandon for the thoughts and replies contained therein. Also, according to many posters on the other forums, my power-hungry nature derives from the fact that I have "penis envy" - I'm sure that this should concern me greatly, considering my female gender in real life.

Anyhow, I've been awake now for somewhere around 26 hours so while reading all of the posts, I felt a nice "detachment" from the rather childish contents of the majority of the posts. I'm sure if I had already gotten a solid 8hrs of sleep or just got back from a full day at work, I would have gotten a little more emotionally charged by the replies, insults, and various other items which were in the posts. As it is, I read the posts as just another lurker. Once I read Graffe's, I read EQClerics. Once I got done with EQClerics, I read a little bit of the Steel Warrior, Monkly Business, and the Safehouse. The latter three didn't interest me as much at this point.

When I was done, I returned to The Druid's Grove and started pecking through a few of the threads that had gained momentum since the 9/4 patch. This is what I've concluded...

For the most part, they're all right. This board has degraded severely into a state of constant whining, ranting, and general flaming.

Do I think it'll stay this way?
No, not really.

Currently the moderators are on a "catch-up" mode - there's over 30-80 people browsing TDG at one time, and new threads popping up every day. Heck, when I finally checked the board for the first time yesterday, I had unread messages for two pages worth in General alone. Normally I see about ten total topics flagged. So I understand that we've got a boatload of newbies getting cross-linked and coming to us from the rather unsavory "General EQ Websites." From the general EQ sites come our trolls; our flamers. Experience has shown me that the majority of these people will go away on their own. They swoop in, indignant about the latest "nerf" and wanting everyone to share that anger. Once a week goes by, they get used to the change, and forget they were ever mad. The ones that don't stop flaming will be banned. Half of the ones that are banned will never return to find that they are banned.

To the "old school" members of The Druid's Grove, I think we know what to expect. It's been a while since we've seen a series of patches from Verant that we can just call... bad. At least "bad" on the grand scale that it's been these past few days. However, I think we're more willing to sit things out and see how the fixes go through.

To both Graffe's and EQClerics, it's rather apparent that there's a lot of animosity on both sides. Pointing fingers shouting "nerf!" won't help anyone though. I have always had an open invite to all classes to visit the Druid's Grove - I find that cross-class communication allows for all of us to expand our understanding of why the other class is so opposed to the changes that either side suggests. However, I'm not inviting you to my house to drag mud on the carpet. I'm asking you over to have a drink and hang out, shoot the sh*t. Maybe even get some stuff done while we're at it.

Either way right now, I think I can make an almost blanket statement and say that 99% of the Everquest forums around right now are full of whiners and ranters.

I just hope we don't end up shooting each other in the foot while we fight over this particular scrap of land.

That's funny that clerics think we whine so much. That's why our class continues to get screwed I guess. Who got upgraded out the wazoo in the last patch and who didn't? Nuff said.

"my power-hungry nature derives from the fact that I have "penis envy" - I'm sure that this should concern me greatly, considering my female gender in real life."

Penis envy actually is a Freudian term, which says that many females feel inferior(and become reactionary) to males because they do not have a penis.

I become reactionary to morons, some of whom are male. Does that count?

I also read both boards, and what I find amusing is the wizards actually have a reasonable complaint. Our nukes do come pretty close to a wizard's in efficiency at level 60. However, our heals are not even in the same ball park as clerics' (especially after the patch), yet they seem to fly off the handle much more about us getting better healing.

Some of the differences that I have observed between the boards are these:

1) This board has a high degree of Druids in the high-end game. They are articulate and know what they know, and pass that information, good and bad, to the board. I don't get that feeling from the other boards.

2) The other classes, at least the ones that are profoundly anti-druid, are those that are generally satisfied with the way that they are treated by Verant.

3) And as such, see Druids who are not, in a negative light. They treat us as if we are the adversary.

4) Druids generally do not see the other classes as the adversary, but Verant. You will get an oddball post like the one that Bam just posted sure. But by and large most Druids are completely satisfied when another class becomes stronger. And there are Druids here who are completely happy the way that they are now.

5) The mods here are a bit tighter about things than most boards. And when trolls come here from other boards, use to the leniency of their home board, get up in arms. What they do not know is that the reins are across the board, Druids(even long time posters) get similar treatment. They just aren't here long enough to see it.

The mods here would never let stand a post(long running post) "Which class do we hate the most"(with guess who in the #1 category). It would be nuked as soon as it was seen, and not let to run for a week or so.

My server board is mod'ed by those that have little restraint in name-calling nor full-on flaming. That's just the way it is.

6) To be continued...

Yes but in the real world a cleric is needed for a raid, as in 3 hours to kill one epic mob. But, I rarely hear "Come to seb man we really need you" Nope, a druid or shamen can handle those heals and as I result I'm pretty much stuck at 57, no one really needs a cleric anymore except when they die.

It's not so much that a druid healing upgrade will change anything, it's that Verant has totally screwed up the class balance. Look at warriors, you can get by just fine without them by using another melee class-which is turned around from the AD&D world.

On the one hand there are not enough clerics to go around because the entire game consists on sitty on your butt and CH. On a side note Druids don't really want this job, trust me, else you wouldn't play a druid. Imagine hearing "Druid, if you cast one more nuke you're out." A line every cleric has heard several times. When you do become the default healers you'll be wishing for the old-days.

"That's funny that clerics think we whine so much. That's why our class continues to get screwed I guess. Who got upgraded out the wazoo in the last patch and who didn't? Nuff said. "

I think that that post is what they were refering to.

I have read every post on the Cleric board. Honestly most Clerics think that you SHOULD get the new Druid CH on test. That isn't our gripe.

Some of us agree that all priest classes should share the last 3 heal spells that Clerics got last patch.

Most Clerics want a way to add DPS.

Thats all

Have the Test people published anything with numbers and experience, about how efficient it has to have a cleric and a wizard, versus 2 druids in the standard 60 AA exp group?

That has to be the coolest post I have read Stormhaven. I thought I was the only one that noticed the insanely stupid complaining on other boards. Thank you

Thank you for so eloquently articulating something I've also noticed on all the boards I frequent...

When I see the link in my favorites list and am deciding whether or not to go read that particular board my brain says "oh, what the heck, let's go see what <fill in the class> are bitching about today...

What a shame...

This situation is very much counter to what I found when I started out as a wide-eyed newbie Druid, when I could go to the boards and find multiple threads with just goldmines of information that was useful to me (/nods with gratitude towards the Archives on this site)...

With each new class I started the scenario has repeated itself - one of my biggest disappointments has been seeing EQ Clerics slide down the slippery slope in the last few months... what used to be a site full of really wonderful discussion of tactics and humor and comaraderie has become a place I avoid now...

What a shame...

I sure hope that along with the class balancing will come some "attitude balancing" and regaining the ability to see the Big Picture (and RL is a vital component of that Big Picture, IMO) - and that the humor-impaired move on to a new venue :evil:

Some of us agree that all priest classes should share the last 3 heal spells that Clerics got last patch. Most Clerics want a way to add DPS.


Tell you what, Croff. Get the clerics behind getting the druids the last 3 heals spells that clerics got (not taking them away from clerics, just giving them to druids), WITHOUT druids getting the 75% "CH" that's on test, and I (and most druids, I daresay), will be happy with that. I'll also push for more DPS for clerics, but you'll need to work out some arrangement with the paladins, because it's the melee toes on which you'll be stepping.

Perhaps push for paladins to get a pseudo-CH (or something close to it)?

Here is one other cleric who is behind it.

hehe, i totally agree with Scirocco.

those last 3 heal spells the clerics got from this last patch would drastically increase a druid's healing ability. only problem is, it would still endanger clerics possibly in exp groups. ethereal light would be a wonderful spell on raids with the decent cast time and large heal. that's sorta like the upgrade to chloroblast that i was talking about.

clerics are going to lose some desirability in exp groups no matter what happens, its inevitable. but, seeing as currently every group needs one (at least in the places where exp was raised instead of lowered), thats for the better. so many people worried about their desirability in groups going down, but guess what.. currently we have ZERO desirability in groups.

In a high blue group, I do think the cleric will be preferred in the healing role because of CH and res. Those mobs hit hard and cast hard (the resistance changes have made a BIG BIG difference in the amount of damage you take from casters). Along with the risk, groups will want a resser.

The triple set of new healing spells, shared by druids and clerics, would be more likely to put druids and clerics on equal footing in XP groups below the above. Each will have different other things to offer: aego, CH and res on the one hand, ensnare, PotG, and porting/evac on the other.

Clerics and druids are both losing group slots already. Not to each other or to any other class. The slots are just going empty.

On a raid, the triple set would boost druids in their secondary healing role without endangering the cleric monopoly on the CH rot at all. I know Verant wants to break that monopoly, and as I've made clear, that spell ought to be given to paladins.

If compensation is a valid concept, consider it compensation to the paladins for giving clerics more DPS and druids the group healing role. Given the respective history of paladins and druids (paladins are focused more on instant divine healing on a single target...e.g., res, LoH; druids have been more focused on regenerative healing and "pack" spells), it just makes more sense for druids to get a "pack" HoT, and paladins to get CH (or something close to it). After all, paladins already have LoH....

I totally agree with Stormhaven's observations, and I also think the new cleric heals would be a far greater benefit to druids than the proposed 75% heal capped at 3k. Etherial remedy is the ultimate in backup heals and some sort of group heal is what druids have wanted all along. I never really saw that big of push towards CH other than when Verant completely nerfed low blues XP, and clerics dont want any competition on their key raid role.

Before i read the Cleric board, i thought it was Druid vs Verant. After reading the Cleric board i realized it was Druids vs Clerics and Druids vs Verant =P

waits for Scirocco to remind Broom of the wizards... :p

lol, i havent been to Graffes in awhile, dont think i will, reading the Cleric forum was hard enough to swallow :(

THE WIZARDS! Yes remind him of us.

We have been silent for too long. We must stand up for ourselves.

We want a Gnome Bane nuke. 10k zone-wide unresistable damage for 100 mana, works only in Ak'anon.

:)

i actually do NOT want the ethereal heals over the %heal. mainly because the druid healing drawback has always been efficiency. the ethereal heals are not about efficiency, they are about speed, which should be the realm of the cleric, not the druid. speed heals wont make us any more valuable as a primary healer for grouping or keeping raid groups alive. those things take the efficiency that we just dont have. the efficiency of remedy and dl ethereals are worse than we currently have, and ethereal elixir is very situational.

just give me a 3k with its efficiency that is 3 times that of NT, and ill be happy. of course, if you want to give me the %heal AND the ethereals, i wont complain.

Our nukes do come pretty close to a wizard's in efficiency at level 60.

We are nowhere near a level 60 wizards ability to unleash pure hellish damage.

Don't let their stats fool you..they leave out such things as the ability to chain cast certain damage combos, how their spells are innately less resisted than ours. How druid spells have more aggro than other classes with similar spells.

Moonfire is on par with Ice Comet...a level 49 old world wizard spell.

Should we be close to their nuking? No. Our nuking is pretty solid atm

I used to read EQcleric a lot. I tend to take a look at it when there are potential changes to Ragefire or huge changes like the latest patch.

It is not the same board it was 6 months ago. It certainly ain't the same as it was a year ago.

It in no way reflects the general cleric community. Please do not attribute idiotic statements others make to me or any other cleric. I make my own idiotic statements thank you.

Tarf

Jeez I didnt read that one on EQclerics, just some of the others on Graffe's. They talk like if they share a fraction of their desirably with druids then their class is done with. It will be the day when I see a raid leader say "Sorry we are going to have to call the raid because we dont have enough druids ." However not haveing enough clerics is what ends our raiding every night.
I am sorry but that thread upset me more than anything else. I strongly recommend not reading it. If we dont get a heal that isn't capped, I think I am going to transfer all my gear over to a cleric. Come another year down the line when a 2950 heal isnt enough it will be the same thing all over again. Since CH isnt capped it is never "not enough." I hope VI does something soon, having to beg people for groups just isnt fun anymore.
P.S. Where do I sign up for bitter druids?

heh, you guys act like you'll have fun with a cheal. CH is not fun. Like raiding kael with a high 40s, low 50s group as a cleric was amazing fun, cause its pre-cheal chain and u go for efficiency, having cheal hit as the MT hits purple is a rush. But normal grouping? @#%$ it sucks unless you get in a good dungeon that takes challenge. As a lvl 50 cleric, all I get is KC group requests, what do I do? tell em to stick it. I'd rather log in an alt than xp in KC unless its like a basement group with friends.

wtb snare and sow so I can quad kite =/

Zerai Norezforyou
50th Cleric of Vaz
Teh Gimp

This board has seriously gone down hill. Druids don't need better heals, they need boxes of tissue to wipe their tears away for all the crying and whining.

Nothing wrong with bitching - hell, ask Aidon, I am with him 100% when it comes to complaining - but the class envy is just too much on these boards lately. We've gotten half of the things we wanted addressed on the petition, and the more important ones at that! Instead of this "the glass if half full" mentality, let's think about what we have gotten.

Kahlus Naester
60 Druid, Karana

Druids don't need better heals

Wrong.


We've gotten half of the things we wanted addressed on the petition, and the more important ones at that!

No. It's not half nor is it the more important ones since the healing issue was one of them.

<font color=green>
Remove the 10% healing penalty for noncleric healers.
Create a single-target version of Protection of the Glades.
Remove the snare from the epic's Wrath of Nature effect.
Allow druids to teleport to Luclin.
Fix Moonfire.
</font>

<font color=red>
Change Nature's Recovery to 24 seconds with a shorter recast time.
Give druids a group heal.
Give druids an upgrade to Nature's Touch.
Fix the stacking properties of POTG and Aegolism.
Upgrade Winged Death with an end-level DOT.
Create a cold debuff (line).
</font>

Just fyi: CHeal is capped at 10500. Just haven't met a tank yet that is at that mark. But a year from now..........

kahlia, if druids are so well balanced, explain these:

www.silentredemption.org/showpage.cgi?show=howtojoin (http://www.silentredemption.org/showpage.cgi?show=howtojoin)

www.afterlifeguild.org/?page=joining (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/?page=joining)

www.harmonium.net/app.asp (http://www.harmonium.net/app.asp)

www.hossguild.com/new/recruiting.php (http://www.hossguild.com/new/recruiting.php)

66.196.196.167/forums/announcement.php?s=b1717c9f6e3f01a0ab02e674e38e424 b&forumid=3 (http://66.196.196.167/forums/announcement.php?s=b1717c9f6e3f01a0ab02e674e38e424 b&forumid=3)

home.insightbb.com/~nightbane/Join.html (http://home.insightbb.com/~nightbane/Join.html)

www.hneguild.com/apply.asp (http://www.hneguild.com/apply.asp)

www.bladesofwrath.com/recruiting.htm (http://www.bladesofwrath.com/recruiting.htm)

no/low desirability anywhere, these aren't just coincidences. by class envy, i guess you could say we wish we were a class and not something to PL on a second account as a port ho.

Looking at the changes out of the petition, moonfire was more of a bugfix than a true upgrade - did you see it in its original form when luclin was released?? It was a total joke of a ratio and it wasnt even dropping in game (1-2 druids across all servers supposedly had it). Most of the other changes were mostly cosmetic and not of real importance like snare removed from epic and single target potg (PotC more of a self buff nowdays). The ports to luclin were more of a benefit to melee classes than anyone else as it allows wizards/druids to port melee to Nexus from anywhere (the other ports other than grimmling forest can be gotten to in like a minute or so if you have a fast zoning computer). Most people still havent bothered to change their bind point from Nexus unless its a temporary/situational bind.

The only real change so far has been the removal of the 10% penalty which is a step in the right direction. The original purpose of the penalty was to differentiate heals back when CH was not used, and combined with the mad hitpoint inflation over Velious and Luclin the penalty was no longer justified. However, there is still a huge healing gap and if Verant doesnt give a new role or beef up a different area to make druids desirable for raids, healing still needs to be looked in to.

Luclin ports were as inevitable as Winds of North and South working from anywhere. Or as we lost the Dragon rings teeth/keys.

No ports to Luclin was only a temporary way of slowing exploration of the Skinner Maze.

When PoP comes out, there will be an exploration bottleneck too, that will be removed as scheduled in 6 months, right before the next expansion.

Clockwork, that's all Luclin ports were.



RE: Dot change(which we did not even think of asking for) and the 10% penalty removal.

Can you imagine the hundreds of lines of code removed, or the millions of CPU cycles per second that those changes freed up?

RE: PotC, as much as it was a Druid quest, it was far, far more a Tradeskiller quest. For all those people who have worked tradeskills exclusively to do the shawl. For obvious reasons, I think that most avid tradeskillers are Druids, though.

Do I think CHeal chain sounds like fun? no, not really. But is running around shouting 56 druid lfg, all day long fun? I just spent 4 hours running around to each zone shouting lfg and didn't get one response.
I havent had anyone ask me to join their group, since level 30ish. I WISH I could zone into KC and have a group all ready for me to join and get exp.

The patch upset me.

However, I don't hate other classes for it.

It's all about PvV baby, sign me up for the Bitter Druids.

"clerics are going to lose some desirability in exp groups no matter what happens, its inevitable. but, seeing as currently every group needs one (at least in the places where exp was raised instead of lowered), thats for the better. so many people worried about their desirability in groups going down, but guess what.. currently we have ZERO desirability in groups."

-Elder Veto Zhir'Venhiruum
Hierophant
Echoes in Eternity
Rodcet Nife

exactly!
with the exp bonus in harder parts, clerics will be a must, so they'll be getting in to groups. I know I would NEVER take a group into UP, CT, even akheva, because if anyone dies, GL finding them a res. But with the exp bonus this just makes druids less desirable in groups. give me one good reason anyone would want a druid to join a group. At least with the 75% ch druids would be desirable for groups if clerics are no where to be found.

I'm a wuss.

I don't go anywhere fun without a cleric.

I love clerics.



All these Druids who brag "I'm main healer here, I'm main healer there", well, I just don't play that way.

Sue me.

kahlia, if druids are so well balanced, explain these:

;)

On that note: of interest is that Kahlia's old main was Kahlus the druid, but Nightbane (resident Uberguild on Karana) wouldn't let him join as a Druid. Afaik Kahlus still isn't in Nightbane...Kahlia the Cleric is though.

My necro gets no groups anywhere, but I don't care, I just go solo. Thats what our classes are about. Druids are pwn wikid soloers so are necros. When I wanted a group character, I made a cleric, but my necro is for soloing. I can't always play normal hours so I log my necro to solo.

If you want to group, make a group class, if you want to solo make a solo class.

i tend to think that if druids were meant NOT to group, we wouldnt have been given group regen, group thorns, group sow, group ports, group wolf form, group potg, group resists, group skins......

i think you get the picture. there is just about only one class that has the same degree of group functionality with spells as druids, and thats shaman, and ours is the only one that starts as low as lvl 9.

with as diverse as the classes are, and i dont think you can really say any class is that similar to another, the ability to solo or not *should not* be a major concern with whether you pick one class over another.

ideally you should be able to choose the class you LIKE best, not being limited to which one fits your real life schedule.

Kerai in 1999 when I made my Druid it was a group class. Frankly I would like to to go back to a group class. I find soloing boring, but I also don't have the time nor the inclination to start over from scratch.

You have fun soloing....

Korwyn
The Nameless

Ethereal Remedy would virtually dry up your mana in a matter of minutes if you use mod rods rarely. Same with Ethereal Elixir.

But at least YOU could cast it and clerics could focus on the CH chain. It was a MAJOR PAIN to patch heal the MA, to heal my group and all who yelled for heals during that last 12 min fight. I wish my group's druid had Ethereal Remedy and Ehereal Elixir, now that would have helped.

From my reading most clerics think the 3k heal means stepping too far on cleric turf whilst giving druids better, faster, larger spot heals would be a good solution, amongst some forms of "uber regen spells" (dunno, I think like heal 80HP/tick over 30 ticks or just like cele elixir).

As for those who don't like to patch heal well just think of doing Emp or any mob past tier 2 w/o patch healers...good luck winning this fight!

I don't mean to start something else that includes the shaman class as I don't really care. But reading the cleric's forums it seems alot of them were really concerned about us not accepting the fact that our dots stacking was a big deal. Well, its a big deal if the dots were administered in a smaller a mount of ticks.. don't know how your raids go but sometimes big mobs are either dead within the minute or the raid fails.. not all the time i know.. but most of the time if its not dead FAST.. it means trouble..our dots are not fast from what I've seen except BoR.. so there goes that portion.. but anyways.. I'm getting off of the main subject that I wanted to point out. They are simply demonstration being upset at us cause we are upset at them.. how come they don't think of what a group of shamans could do! Mother of GOD! If one shaman has the ability to solo incredibly.. specially like it has been mentioned here.. Summonable mobs with no trouble.. what can a group of shamans do.. and no this isn't to get everyone going crazy about shamans being overpowered now since they always stacked their dots and now they stack everyones!.. is simply to point out that the clerics want to BASH druids isntead of looking at the big picture.. I mean even one of them admited that their own concerns aren't even clear.. and that at least we have our S*** together..

Soloing is great and all and I have nothing against it. Quading is an awesome way to make exp (well havent done it since Sep 4/6 patch) when I can build up the attention span to do it. However the raptors dont drop uber loot. If I could solo the 8th shawl and HoT for better armor I would say that we dont need anything more. Since I cant really get anything better on my own, I need groups, and we all know how much druids are needed in groups.

OK, speaking as a cleric, I can't help reacting to this very one-sided presentation...

1. Verant's stated objective was making druids viable main healers for an xp group. Rich Waters said publicly that a druid or shaman should be able to do this and that was one of the main thrusts of `Priest class balancing`. (If you don't like this, blame Verant, not clerics.)

2. The `Ethereal` line of spells will not achieve this objective. I know how fast I would run oom trying to keep an xp group healed with them.

3. The proposed druid `CH`, on the other hand, will achieve this objective admirably. Most of my CH's do not land for more than 3,000 hp - and I have checked this assertion, since it's one that I've made several times.

4. Once druids become main healers in xp groups, clerics (pre-hammer) were out of a job. I've explained the reasons for this in another thread on this board.

5. Clerics were (historically) intensely jealous of druids because a druid can do basic things like get from one place to another or kill a blue mob without help... the cleric class (pre-hammer) was so helpless it was unbelievable. That was one of several reasons why clerics were abandoning the class in large numbers.

(I'm aware that druids are one of the most heavily-botted classes. Try to imagine how many clerics are uberguild raid-bots... I know for a fact that over half the clerics in my guild are second-account CH rotation/melee levelling slaves.)

6. It's always intimidating reading boards which belong to a class which is threatened by yours... I found the druid boards, and recently the paladin boards, almost frightening to read. And if you think the blatant, vitriolic hatred expressed by many druids towards clerics didn't start until the recent CH issue exploded across our boards, then you might want to re-read some of the older posts here. I do assure you that there were druids who hated clerics since the year dot.

7. Most intelligent clerics will stipulate that the Dev team were extremely tactless in implementing upgrades to clerics - and ones so poorly thought through that they needed to be nerfed within a day of implementation - while not upgrading druids. I posted to this effect on your boards earlier.

8. Clerics mostly did not ask for melee upgrades. We have received them and, from a clerical point of view, they are desirable not because they make the cleric class more powerful in a group or raid - any upgrade there is marginal at best; since the hammer nerf, in the order of 5 DPS versus most xp mobs - but because they make the cleric class a) able to solo somewhat and b) considerably more fun to play. Previously, playing a cleric was horribly dull !

9. The healing upgrades are mostly irrelevant to clerics. CH trivialises healing in most situations, while these do not. Consider that a 3,000 point CH heals 300hp per second and 7.5hp per mana if you aren't specialised in alteration:- the Ethereal line does not surpass these figures.

10. A group heal for druids would represent a direct attack on the grouping desirability of the paladin - a class which was already suffering before the priest balancing even started. If you ask for a group heal, you need to consider how you would rebalance paladins as a result.

Luclin uber mobs don't drop in under a minute and isn't winged death like a minute duration? not entirely sure on upper lvl dots, but I know some fights even the long lasting necro dots like the boil blood line actually reach the point of wearing off...

"9. The healing upgrades are mostly irrelevant to clerics. CH trivialises healing in most situations, while these do not. Consider that a 3,000 point CH heals 300hp per second and 7.5hp per mana if you aren't specialised in alteration:- the Ethereal line does not surpass these figures"

wrong.

ethereal remedy's 975/2.75 = 354.5 hp per second.

I referred to the balance between hp/second and hp/mana. Calculate how many casts of Ethereal Remedy would empty your mana bar and how many hp you would have healed in doing so, and you'll understand my point.

I have rarely memmed and never cast Ethereal Remedy. The hp/mana ratio makes it foolish to do so in every situation I have encountered, and that includes Cazic Thule, the Dragon Necropolis crawl, single-group Hate/Growth raids, Acrylia Caverns, and Ssraeshza Temple since the spell was made live.

Remedy line is useful for what it is, a quick heal, you use it on casters, a) its too inefficient to use cheal on a caster and b) it will be dead in 10 secs. even a HoT isn't usually good enough.

Aidon said:
On that note: of interest is that Kahlia's old main was Kahlus the druid, but Nightbane (resident Uberguild on Karana) wouldn't let him join as a Druid. Afaik Kahlus still isn't in Nightbane...Kahlia the Cleric is though.
Ah, well, in that case, owned. So please don't sign as a level 60 druid while speaking as your cleric main.

But they still have a lvl 60 druid so would understand the class better than just a lvl 60 cleric who had no druid.

do you not notice the irony of someone saying druids are balanced while they had to apply as a cleric to get into their desired guild because the druid wasn't sufficient?

do you not notice the deception someone is intentionally posting with by signing as a druid when their main is a cleric?


his opinion is that of cleric's, not that of a druid's, ergo signing as a druid is inapropriate regardless of what characters he has.

But they still have a lvl 60 druid so would understand the class better than just a lvl 60 cleric who had no druid.

If they did understand the class better, then they wouldn't be whining about whiners in the first place and subsequently making inaccurate statements about the petition's results. If you had a druid then decided it was not for you and you wanted to play a cleric as your main in a raid guild, then nut up, accept your decision, and stop telling druids what to do. There's a word for that kind of attitude, but Fyyr will remind me not to even think it. ;)

Well, in terms of this forum, I post more as my Cleric vs my Necro cause it has more relation in the threads I post in. Yet Kerai is my Necro.

I just feel someone with multiple classes probably understands the classes they play better than someone with one class. Because with the multiple, they can see how a member of their other class reacts in their groups or in their raids when they are their other class or how their classes interact.

Its like the grass is always greener on the other side, when you walk over the other side, you realize they are both the same colour.

no, this person was using their voice as a "60 druid" to make it appear as though a druid thought we were balanced, when in reality it was a cleric not wanting druids to get upgrades because of this irrational threat clerics feel. signing as a druid was deceitful as it lead us to believe they were someone who values a druid's concerns, albeit, it's just another cleric that would rather see druids get nothing in terms of healing upgrades.

edit: i leveled a monk to 60, but i dont go to the monk boards signing as a monk saying they need nerfed to hell.

Stormhaven and Veto Zhir'Venhiruum, I'd like to thank you both for posting such well articulated and intelligent messages.

I'd like to see all of the Everquest classes get along better than they have in the past. I will never forget sharing a boat ride to the Ocean of Tears with a character who's last name was Druidhater. I also remember the time when I wrote an e-mail to the developers corner pointing out how unfair it was to those in 3rd Tier guilds that 4-6 Manaburn wizards had become their main competition for Gorenaire, Ragefire, etc. None of us is without blame. Lets forgive each other for the mistakes we've made in the past and move on in the right direction.

The one thing that is most offensive (and that I myself have been guilty of--and regret) is calling for a nerf of another classes abilities. I'm glad Manaburn hasn't been nerfed. It sickens me to hear Paladins calling for nerfs of the recent cleric melee upgrades.

I would like to see clerics and all classes able to solo effectively. I'd like to see Clerics and all classes be highly desired by all experience groups. I'd also like to see Druids and all classes have a critical raid role to play. So lets come together no matter what class we have committed ourselves to playing, and help suggest ways for the developers to truly balance all classes.

"If they did understand the class better, then they wouldn't be whining about whiners in the first place and subsequently making inaccurate statements about the petition's results. "

More like unlike the rest of you, I happen to have played both classes in the end game.

If you guys didn't cry like little girls with skinned knees I wouldn't even be posting. The upgrades for druids (or fixes if you'd prefer to think of them that way) in the last few months are amazing, and if you are so damned bitter you can't see that, then you really do our class a disservice.

I agree, that the new heals on test for druids are very much needed, though I'm not sure how well they will work out. We'll just have to see what happens when they hit a live server and are used on some bigger raids. Other than that change, what are druids honestly missing at this point?

Also, unlike some of you, I have no problems getting in groups with either of my toons.

I don't remember Miss Foxfyre being this bitter - I think she may have just surpassed even one so highly decorated as Aidon as the ultimate in bitterness.



"no, this person was using their voice as a "60 druid" to make it appear as though a druid thought we were balanced, when in reality it was a cleric not wanting druids to get upgrades"

First off, my druid has been around since pre-kunark. My cleric was created post-velious. Second off, I'm known across the server as a druid, not a cleric. Third off, anyone from here who knows me in game knows I hang out on the druid channels and forums and rarely if ever visit the cleric ones. Fourth, even the guild makes jokes about "that druid playing a cleric".

You can have the upgrades all you want to. Hate to break it to you, but almost every cleric I know (sorry I only know 60s playing in the end game, so my information may be skewed in that regard) is CHEERING for the druid heal upgrades. Why? Because just for once I'd like to be able to skip a raid without the guild having to cancel it.

I'm not sure what kind of druids you have in your guild, but ours are pretty badass, and we couldn't succeed without their contributions. Making them more effective will just make our guild that much more successful.

And since some of you just couldn't get it, I was posting under my cleric account because my druid's ezboard account doesn't have access to our guild boards. Hence I don't see the point of switching back and forth just to post on the druid boards. But just for your benefit, here's my full sig:

Kahia Girlie
60 Cleric, Nightbane
Kahlus Naester
60 Druid, Nightbane (alt)


Edit:
"i leveled a monk to 60, but i dont go to the monk boards signing as a monk saying they need nerfed to hell. "

I, unlike you, have played my druid for almost 3 years, and the cleric for only 1. I'm as qualified as any other druid on this message board to comment on what we as a class do or do not need. And since you obviously didn't read my posts, I have championed the druid heals since day one. Feel free to look through any of my other posts on this board and you'll see that is the case.

"Ah, well, in that case, owned. So please don't sign as a level 60 druid while speaking as your cleric main."

Oh yeah, cause if you log off your druid and log in a level 1 ranger now you automatically become stupid and don't know anything about druids.

Get a clue. I've been around as long as you and know just as much about our class. If you don't agree with my opinions then get over it, but don't try to trash my credibility cause you only look stupid trying.

backpedal

I just feel someone with multiple classes probably understands the classes they play better than someone with one class. Because with the multiple, they can see how a member of their other class reacts in their groups or in their raids when they are their other class or how their classes interact.
The first statement is a given -- it's practically an axiom. I've played with other druids in my group while on as a druid, shaman, or cleric.

" do you not notice the irony of someone saying druids are balanced while they had to apply as a cleric to get into their desired guild because the druid wasn't sufficient?"

Actually my druid met every single requirement in gear, play time, connection speed, and above all, skill level. Even to this day the druid officer and I discuss druid strategies and try to one-up one another on solo'ing big mobs.

Unfortunately, my guild already had 5 druids, and wasn't recruiting them at the time. They were, however, recruiting clerics, and considering all three of my roommates were tagged in that guild, I was willing to play the cleric to hang out with them. Strange concept, yeah, people do play this game to hang out with their friends. Mine just happen to be in one of the top guilds on the server.


"do you not notice the deception someone is intentionally posting with by signing as a druid when their main is a cleric?"

When have I ever tried to deceive anyone? Lookup some of the threads I've posted on and you'll see me post under both of my accounts because I am too lazy to switch back and forth just so my ezboard signature matches the class board I'm on.


And again, think before you speak. I am one of the minority of druids on this forum who has leveled a druid AND a cleric from 1 to 60 in the last three years and is qualified to speak as either of them. You see me posting on the rogue forums just because I had a twink rogue once? No, I only post on boards I'm qualified to speak on.

"I, unlike you, have played my druid for almost 3 years, and the cleric for only 1. I'm as qualified as any other druid on this message board to comment on what we as a class do or do not need. And since you obviously didn't read my posts, I have championed the druid heals since day one. Feel free to look through any of my other posts on this board and you'll see that is the case."

first of all, my druid has been around since '99 and monk since early '01. druid has almost 300 days played, monk has only about 40. i looked through your other posts on this board, and i found this:

"Druids don't need better heals"


am i unjustified to think you came here with the intent to look like a druid saying your heals were sufficient but meanwhile you're just a cleric trying to keep druids from getting upgrades? the hell im not.

Could we please get back to the original topic at hand? Flaming individuals, and individuals defending themselves against those flames is of no use to anyone.

Lets try this again:

I'd like to see all of the Everquest classes get along better than they have in the past. I will never forget sharing a boat ride to the Ocean of Tears with a character who's last name was Druidhater. I also remember the time when I wrote an e-mail to the developers corner pointing out how unfair it was to those in 3rd Tier guilds that 4-6 Manaburn wizards had become unfair competitors for Gorenaire, Ragefire, etc. None of us is without blame. Let's forgive each other for the mistakes we've made in the past and move on in the right direction.

The one thing that is most offensive (and that I myself have been guilty of--and regret) is calling for a nerf of another classes abilities. I'm glad Manaburn hasn't been nerfed. It sickens me to hear Paladins calling for nerfs of the recent cleric melee upgrades.

I would like to see clerics and all classes able to solo effectively. I'd like to see Clerics and all classes be highly desired by all experience groups. I'd also like to see Druids and all classes have a critical raid role to play. So lets come together no matter what class we have committed ourselves to playing, and help suggest ways for the developers to truly balance all classes.

"Druids don't need better heals"

Care to show me where I posted that? Here's the exact quote I put under class balance with my druid ezboard account:

"*Yes, this heal was needed for raids where the clerics are all doing CH rotations and the druids are struggling to keep rampage tanks alive. The benefit of this spell is that the druid has a place in the end game again, and can contribute significantly rather than just prolong the inevitable death of any tank without a cleric behind them. "


Edit: Here's the actual link so you can check yourself what I posted:
pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...c&index=61 (http://pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovefrm30.showMessage?topicID=100.topic &index=61)

right here:

"This board has seriously gone down hill. Druids don't need better heals, they need boxes of tissue to wipe their tears away for all the crying and whining.

Nothing wrong with bitching - hell, ask Aidon, I am with him 100% when it comes to complaining - but the class envy is just too much on these boards lately. We've gotten half of the things we wanted addressed on the petition, and the more important ones at that! Instead of this "the glass if half full" mentality, let's think about what we have gotten.

Kahlus Naester
60 Druid, Karana"


page two of this thread.

OMG, even a 5 year old child could tell you are taking that out of context. Go to www.dictionary.com and lookup sarcasm.

backpedal

Actually I think the word you are looking for is called

hyperbole

not

sarcasm

Veto, replying to you is no longer worth my time.

Everyone else - as I have posted before and said in game to the other druids who know me, hope you get the new heal. Maybe you'll be able to play your druid as a main and not an alt like some of the rest of us did in order to see Vex Thal. Seeing the end game was my main goal in EQ, and I have no regrets about pushing my druid to the back burner to do that. Screenshots of my cleric standing over Aten Ha Ra's corpse have made up for every bit of disappointment I had when the druid couldn't get tagged with any of the ubers on our server.

Kahlia Girlie
60 Cleric, Nightbane

And before anyone hits the edit button:
<img src=http://gwynhyfar.homestead.com/files/tissues.jpg>

More like unlike the rest of you, I happen to have played both classes in the end game.

So what? I have played a 60 shaman and can see that clerics and druids have problems in different areas.


If you guys didn't cry like little girls with skinned knees I wouldn't even be posting. The upgrades for druids (or fixes if you'd prefer to think of them that way) in the last few months are amazing, and if you are so damned bitter you can't see that, then you really do our class a disservice.

Then you are easily amazed. POTC wasn't an upgrade, by the way.


I don't remember Miss Foxfyre being this bitter - I think she may have just surpassed even one so highly decorated as Aidon as the ultimate in bitterness.

LOL. Nice try. Try again after you read my last editorial and gazillion posts about demagoguery on either side. Anyone who calls me bitter like Aidon missed their ride on the clue train.

Of course PotC was an upgrade. Having to recast PotG while kiting tantor for a couple hours got old pretty fast at 1200mana a pop. 500mana a pop for a spell I only cast on myself up until MM started dropping on our server was a heck of an upgrade for me and my mana pool.

(Edit: typo on mana cost - fixed)

I look for the double-speak that sarcasm brings and fail to see it in such a straight forward statement. If you were truely being "sarcastic" I would suggest you seriously hone your skills in this ability. Personally I can only see "backpetal" as the true answer to this. If I am wrong, forgive me, but I think not.

Kahlia Girlie,

I have refrained from engaging you in discussion til now.





That last statement you just made pretty much says everything, don't it?

Coming from an uber Cleric on Karana, that well... just pretty... um... much sums up the whole arguement.

Thank you for agreeing and clarifying what every "whiny-assed-bitter" Druid has been saying for some time now.

I never claimed to have a Pulitzer hidden away in the closet, or an English degree on the wall, but nevertheless, my opinion was stated in the other forum. If you can't follow the chain of thought from that post to the current one in light of the constant rants lately, then I guess you won't be buying my book :(

quite frankly i think clerics solo just fine

"Screenshots of my cleric standing over Aten Ha Ra's corpse have made up for every bit of disappointment I had when the druid couldn't get tagged with any of the ubers on our server."


Keep writing things like that, I will buy your book.

I even took a screenshot.

It really is worthy of a text sig, actually. But I like my Hamlet quote better so far.




p.s. Fox, you do know what an Om is, right?

Fyyr,
I never claimed to be uber. Just stated that I was in a VT guild, and had to play cleric primary to do so.

The whole point of the post was that each class goes through its stages of extreme pissedoffness and disenchantment with class design and VI. Each class has gone through its periods of perceived whinyness or whinedom. The day the druid heal was leaked, clerics exploded, and the day the xp nerf happened, practically every class went to the boards to rant. So what?

Whinyness comes and goes. If anyone has been watching the various classes over the last two and a half years, they would have seen every class moan about something. Wizards, don't @#%$ forget your rants. ;)

Maybe rants are taken less seriously, but I'm one who takes each post into consideration to see whether the content is really talking about something or not. Just because something is rantish doesn't mean that there isn't some good content in that post.

The bottom line is, if you think the board has gone downhill or to hell in a handbasket, no one is forcing a gun to your head to read it. It's that simple. You visit or don't.

And what good is bitching at those who bitch, Kahlia?

I just love the fact that last night, playing my druid, I was close to brain washed to really really rather log it and come with my cleric.

Again, and again, and again.

Edit: I wonder if many other classes have the same treat.
Druids have been paying their versatility vs their desirability to the extreme.

/boggle

It's weird that I'm almost getting a chuckle out of this - in my own thread in which I vehemently try and discourage the whining and other rather annoying factors which have come to live on this board, I get a baby rant right in the middle of it.

I gotta say - to Kahlia, Veto and Fox, STFU. Seriously.

The past ten or more replies to this thread have been nothing more than childish bickering between three or so people. This is the kind of crap I would expect to see upon zoning into Greater Faydark and hearing people who's highest characters are level 45 arguing about how unfair it is how l33t you have to be in order to enter Vex Thal. This is also the kind of stuff I would tell my own guildmates to take to /tells, because quite honestly 99% of the of the guild couldn't give a rat's @$$, but what we do care about is the fact that you're filling our screen with neon green spam.

As for the rest of you, guess what? This may be a newsflash to some of you, but...
It is possible to question other people's thoughts and beliefs about this game without directly insulting their intelligence.

I could care less if Kahlia's main was a white and purple striped Goranga Elephant Herder, and if he/she had never played a level 60 druid in his/her life, or even if he/she eBay'd to get one into their possession.

Now, I don't want to make Kahlia out as a saint in all this, because that's definitely not true. Kahlia your post was inflammatory in nature and if you didn't think you were going to get the same type of replies in kind, you're delusional.

Perceptions of a class are formed not only by the examples of that class you encounter in the game, but also by how that class represents itself on public forums such as The Druid's Grove. If Kahlia thinks that druids don't need a new heal in the end game, there's got to be a reason why. We may find out that Kahlia is an Evocation druid who spends most of the time nuking and therefore hasn't had the joy of trying to keep a full group of casters alive during massive AE rains. Maybe he/she hasn't run into situations where a shaman dies because the small 489 chloroblast from a druid wasn't healing fast enough to keep them alive after a failed slow attempt. The fact is, we don't know how Kahlia formed this opinion because we automatically assumed that this person was just another troll because they didn't immediately disclose the fact that they had another level 60 character which is their primary.

So to summarize - Fox, Veto, Kahlia, I suggest that if you guys want to continue with this pretentious "you don't know wtf you're talking about" bravado, you guys take it to Rants, cause I'm flexing my power-hungry muscles - This is my thread, and I'll be damned if you're going to hijack it with your lame need to boost your own egos by flaming each other online.

no, this person was using their voice as a "60 druid" to make it appear as though a druid thought we were balanced, when in reality it was a cleric not wanting druids to get upgrades because of this irrational threat clerics feel. signing as a druid was deceitful as it lead us to believe they were someone who values a druid's concerns

Careful Veto. On another thread on this same board, you said, "i've played a 60 cleric, thanks. whats your experience on a druid like?" When I asked if you bought the 60 cleric off e-bay, you corrected yourself and admitted that, "No, i dont have a 60 cleric. But my guild regularly asks me to play a friend's cleric for raids instead of druid."

Now what is this about being "deceitful" and trying to lead people to believe that you understand the concerns of another class?

(I know I shouldn't let the little rivalry the two of us are starting spread out into other threads. It also looks like the moderators want the flaming in this thread to tone down a bit. But I just couldn't resist something like this.)

oh please, i said i have experience playing a 60 cleric at some raids in comparison to your much more limited experience as a druid. i'm not claiming to know a whole lot about clerics, but i will say i know the ins and outs of playing a druid at the top of it's class. now, your little attack at me here might hold some water if i was going to the cleric board and saying i had experience as a cleric and i know what they need for balance, but i've done nothing but throw my pitches from a druid's pov.

edit: Got Troll?™

second edit: when i said i had played a cleric at some raids it was in response to you asking "You've never played a cleric over lvl 50, have you?" I was merely answering your question.

2. The `Ethereal` line of spells will not achieve this objective. I know how fast I would run oom trying to keep an xp group healed with them.

Yet...clerics have frequently said our healing was perfectly fine using the much gimpier Chloroblast and Nature's Touch...;)

Wonderful post Stormhaven.

I have always been in a wait and see mode with our class. It is my belief that, VI is not ignorant and they are not out to get Druids. My hope would be that VI will treat us with the same respect as other classes in an unbiased manner. The reality of our situation, may be something a little further away from equality. But that is ok. It is just a game, in the end, and I enjoy playing my Druid even as it is, so what more can I ask, eh? Thus any positive changes made to the class will only make the druid that more enjoyable for me.

cheers!

Hate to break it to you, but almost every cleric I know (sorry I only know 60s playing in the end game, so my information may be skewed in that regard) is CHEERING for the druid heal upgrades. Why? Because just for once I'd like to be able to skip a raid without the guild having to cancel it.

Heh...maybe you could arrange to have the NB clerics make a pitstop over to the GH and Valoran clerics and explain this tidbit to them?

All I hear is whining about Druid's don't need anything more and new druid heals will ruin their lives.


Note:
I was making no suggestion regarding Kahlia's capacity to comment as a Druid. He played a damned fine Druid. I don't agree with his assessment that the Druid class is fine...we aren't and won't be until we can heal again. But I respect his opinions on Druidly things (as long as he doens't disagree with me too much =P).

My comment was solely pointing out the irony of Kahlia's situation..where his guild wouldn't let him join as his Druid...and he had to PLevel a cleric up.

Actually my druid met every single requirement in gear, play time, connection speed, and above all, skill level. Even to this day the druid officer and I discuss druid strategies and try to one-up one another on solo'ing big mobs.

<cough>

Kahlus still isn't in Nightbane however =P

I'm currently better equipped than half the druids in NB still (I think...been a while since I've bothered checking)...with the play time, connection speed, and skill level...I didn't even bother trying to apply though ;P

NB has all the druids they want. Why? Because for the end game druids suck.

If a guild has 5-7 druids..it means they have 1 or 2 on at any given time, which is sufficient for their needs since they have 10-12 clerics on at any given time.

Anyone who calls me bitter like Aidon missed their ride on the clue train.

To misquote an old Red Hot Chili Pepper's song:

"There's nobody Bitter like me!"

"I don't agree with his assessment that the Druid class is fine..."

Back up a sec. You've let my poor English skills (which someone pointed out and I cannot dispute) and some bad misinterpretations of my posts confuse you on my stance.

I am 100% in favor of druids getting a heal. The end game druid needs the heal. With the heal proposed on test a druid would be a very viable alternative to a cleric in situations like rampage healing on HP or XTC.

Gaash, ironically enough, is the druid in NB that doesn't think druids need new heals :)

As for gear comparisons, you might want to inspect Gaash or Allis some day. Their gear is nutty. I wouldn't be surpised if the gear sitting in their bank to put on when they've misplaced their corpses still has better stats than what Kahlus wears everyday.


"since they have 10-12 clerics on at any given time."

Heh, we aren't your average uber guild that has 15 clerics guilded. We have 8 total. Even with dual-boxed cleric alts I've never seen us hit more than 10 online, and that is when we have those "everybody log in this raid is important" kind of posts a few days before.

BTW, I didn't "PLevel a cleric up" to get into my guild. When I decided I wanted to be in an uber guild at the cost of making the druid an alt, my cleric was already level 58. I played her in normal xp groups from solb to seb to akheva.

Very seriously doubt someone with a cleric who didn't know how to play them would make it into any serious high end raiding guild. They just wouldn't have the heal aggro down well enough to live more than 2 min, especially on many of the mobs in Ssra.

Yet...clerics have frequently said our healing was perfectly fine using the much gimpier Chloroblast and Nature's Touch...

Some clerics might have said that. I didn't. ;)

It's certainly true to say that many clerics felt that Chloroblast represented a fair equivalent of Remedy and Natures' Touching represented a fair equivalent of Divine Light, taking into account the old theory - which no longer holds water - that the role of druid was firmly `secondary healer`. Nobody was ever going to use Remedy/Chloroblast or Divine Light/Nature's Touching as the mainstay spell for group healing, whether they were a cleric or a druid.

But that's all history anyway.

What has changed is that Rich Waters has stated that druids are supposed to be able to step into the `main healer` role in an XP group following the Priest Balancing. If you read my whole post, you'll see that my remarks are firmly in the context of this rather fundamental change to the previous druid role.

After so much mudflation, as I've asserted several times, the only spell which is going to form the mainstay of any group healer's options is Complete Healing or some reasonable facsimile of it. No other spell, and certainly not the Ethereal line, will cut the mustard at this - they can only augment a CH, not replace it.

Now, if you don't like the role of main healer in an xp group and you don't want it forced on you, then you should tell the Dev team, not the clerics.

If you do like it, then what the Dev team have proposed for a druid `CH` seems like a reasonable option. The Ethereal line is not a reasonable option, hence my post.

You can say this

I am 100% in favor of druids getting a heal.

all you want, but what people are going to rember you saying in your first post in this thread is this.

This board has seriously gone down hill. Druids don't need better heals, they need boxes of tissue to wipe their tears away for all the crying and whining.

Not only that, but you signed it like this

Kahlus Naester
60 Druid, Karana

even though the name of your ez board account is your real main who is a cleric. When you come here and claim to be a druid and say druids don't need a new heal and then backpeddle the whole time after it is pointed out that you had to get into your current guild with a cleric because they don't want your druid, you lose a lot of credibility. You can say this

I am 100% in favor of druids getting a heal.

all you want now, but I hope you understand that it will be hard for people to take you at your word at this point.

I have said it before and will say it again...if we limit what we think druids should be and get based on what other classes think is right, a level 60 druid will end up soloing orcs in WC and that is about it.

NO ONE wants to give up turf. Tough. It is for Verant to figure out how to balance these things, and I am not going to go sucking up to other classes who on the whole would sooner see us not in the game.

Nothing I post here will ever be based on "what clerics would accept" or what "Wizards would accept" or what any class "would accept."

It isn't up to them. It is up to Verant, and to a limited degree, us (in terms of how well we argue for our needs).

Talyena, the fact is, I hate to say it but the Druids Grove is considered the whiners grove.

There are many posts which are quite valid but there is a lot of whining too. There is no perfect class in EQ, accept this, a lot can do a lot of @#%$, not all of which is interesting.

Kahlus was making a sarcastic statement to just knock off the whining. Get a sense of humour.

I agree druids aren't balanced, neither are a lot of classes. VI has stated that they are going to start balancing stuff out now and they are in the position to know which needs to do what. Sure you may think your class needs A but in reality, VI might not want to give you A cause that makes you and class X the same and wtf u want 2 classes which are the same?

Sure VI does retarded things (like cleric melee...if I wanted to be a paladin, I woulda damn well made one) but they still do some good stuff.

edit: removing sig, not appropriate for a general forum $$

Already had 5 druids and weren't accepting more.

How many clerics did they have? 20? And I bet they were still in demand, so you got in.

Talyena, the fact is, I hate to say it but the Druids Grove is considered the whiners grove.

I read lots of boards and druids grove only falls in the middle range of whining and ranting. EQclerics has had far worse blowups here and Graffes is just a home for full time druid bashing even though it got so bad that the moderators tried to tone it down. The necro boards are almost as bad with druid bashing. The fact is though, druids do have a reason to complain. People say to just wait, they are working on it. I quit EQ for a while because of the stress placed on me trying to backup heal on raids. This was over a year ago and I have been back for quite a while and nothing has changed. If anything it has gotten worse as everyone has more and more hit points. Furor is the guild leader for one of the top end guilds in EQ, his opinion of druids for raiding is they suck. Raiding is what EQ has become all about and druids are at the bottom of the raiding class barrel.

Kahlus was making a sarcastic statement to just knock off the whining. Get a sense of humour.

He was making a rude and condescending statement meant to inflame people and start a fight. That isn't the type of statement you make when you want to have a discussion about a subject and that is the type of bashing that most of us are sick of hearing.

Come on Veto. I asked if you had any xp playing a cleric and you said you played a 60 cleric. You said it almost boastfully and asked what my druid experience was. (I bet you were hoping I'd say none, weren't you?) You also made several comments about how I don't know anything about the high-end game. It sounds pretty obvious that you were trying to insinuate that you knew the cleric class better than me and I should listen to your advice about how we clerics should play our class.


i've done nothing but throw my pitches from a druid's pov.

I've seen posts you made in several threads. Almost every single one of them is hostile to clerics, and to anybody else who doesn't agree with you. And your replies to my posts are usually filled with childish insults. (And I see you make them to other people also.) That sounds like a lot more than "a druid's pov" to me.

"Talyena, the fact is, I hate to say it but the Druids Grove is considered the whiners grove."


I dont care about being labeled as the whiniest by some, the whiniest are probably the most broken or else they would be fairly quiet like Shaman are. If i logged into EQ and had no grouping issues, i wouldnt be complaining, and i dont think most Druids would to this degree. Fact is some of us do log in and see those issues everyday we're sitting at zoneline trying to find a group for hours. Regardless of what issues you think other classes have, Druids probably have it worse at this current time than any other class.

Meanwhile, Clerics still own CH and healing to every degree, improved soloing, major epic change, new heals, new DS thats better than Druids on Test, and you wonder why Druids are whiners? Clerics are STILL the first choice as healers, even more so now than ever before(and Clerics saying Druids were being picked up as healers over them is an outright lie P). So what you should be doing is telling the still dissatisfied Clerics over on the Cleric board that they have no reason to be whining. The ones whining about their weapon nerf know damn well it was overpowered to begin with, and that you dont deserve compensation for what should've came in the way it is now in the first place. Its so rediculous that you guys think you deserve compensation because a overpowered hammer was first given to you then nerfed. You Clerics act as though you had that proc'ing hammer all along, and Verant just nerfed it. Talk about ungrateful, Druids are still waiting for anything.....

Clerics saying Druids were being picked up as healers over them is an outright lie

Actually, what happens is a misc group of people sits at a zone line for 30 to 40 min hoping a cleric will zone in. The druid is sitting there the whole time and the group says, well we can at least do camp x with the druid...are you all sure you don't have any cleric friends who can come?

So the group goes out with druid as healer (as long as there is a slower or another healer), take an easy camp, and a cleric finally zones in and finds no one at zone and thinks "that damn druid took my group."

Stupid really. The game should not hang on how many clerics are online and whether there happens to be one available when the other 5 people forming a group want to do something.

Kerai, Sarcasm, while it can be humorous, isn't usually considered to be "friendly" in addition, Sarcasm almost never translates into the printed word. Sarcasm usually involves changing the tone of voice, etc. I always remember my parents getting angry with me for being sarcastic with them.

Tell me if the following statement is sarcastic:

Kerai argues like a pro!

Is it a compliment giving you praise of your debating skills?
Is it a sarcastic remark meaning you can't argue?

See the point?

Stormy was correct in her post. But, at least I've never seen insulting remarks towards other classes included in signatures by any druids. Sad to say, there are at least two wizards on Graffe's that have insulting remarks about druids as a sig.

Ok let us stop all the personal attacks. They just aren't constructive coming from druids or any class. Now can we move on?

hey, if you think this board is just full of whiners, you got an option.

GO AWAY!

please.

=)

Talyena, the fact is, I hate to say it but the Druids Grove is considered the whiners grove.

Kerai, how can you start your post by saying this and expect anyone to take the rest of your post seriously? Once you've clearly announced you are trolling, people are just going to tune you out. And make no mistake, that statement is trolling.

Asking for upgrades doesnt make this board whiney. Its because there is usualy no arguments given beyond 'I always have to look for groups for a long time' , 'my servers uber guild wont let me join' or even worse some form of exageration. The bad thing with this is that the ones you need to convince (Verant) might never have played a Druid and they need details to see the problems. Or if details given, then they better not be (too) wrong as it generaly invalidates an oppinion.

The reason they have to fight these people, is because if we let them be we get other classes believing ALL druids share their views. Remember the guy that suggested, not seriously, that we needed CH and MB afew weeks back? EVERY other class messageboard lit up with that, and if we asked for ANYTHING all we got was "lol, you want CH and MB too". Keep it up guys, Kahlia will go away eventually. We're balanced yet you keep having to log in other classes to replace your druid...

Gaash, ironically enough, is the druid in NB that doesn't think druids need new heals

Yeah I know, Gaash is the Anti-Bitter =P

As for gear comparisons, you might want to inspect Gaash or Allis some day.

I wasn't speaking about Gaash or Allis =P Gaash is to be expected..and Allis always did have rather insane gear relative to the rest of the server's druids heh.

Only druid I've ever met to have a full viewable suit of Crystal Chitin just to look like a melee

*edit* Warned you already. You two want to keep bickering back and forth, take it to Rants.

"But Daddy, I want an Oompa-Loompa!"

"But Daddy, I want an Oompa-Loompa!"

But aren't clerics the big grapes?

I thought this thread would have some wicked cross-board comparisons =( Boy was I let down.

I'll go away? Heh, I've been playing a druid and lurking these boards as long as anyone. I just rarely feel like posting. Bring back the threads on solo'ing summoning mobs, or aoe kiting, and leave the current trend of threads behind.

We all get different things out of the game. Personally, the "druid challenge" we had going on for a while was one of the more exciting times I've had. Some of the achievements on that thread are nothing short of amazing, and I had a great time trying to one-up the others out there.

Instead of being so jaded and bitter all the time about this nerf or that buff, try enjoying your class again for the reasons you started playing it. Because at the end of the day, Verant is going to do whatever they want, and you can either accept it and try to make the best of it, or you can let it ruin your gaming experience.

Kahlia

"We're balanced yet you keep having to log in other classes to replace your druid"

Actually I play my druid everday. Ten times more fun of a class to play than cleric, IMO. No replacing that. But when the raid bell dings, the druid sleeps.

As for gear comparisons, you might want to inspect Gaash or Allis some day.

Gear can mean almost exactly nothing if there are enough mod rods piled in front of you and Torpor or Ethereal Elixirs are going off. What does FT15 mean when you're chewing 3 or 4 rods a minute? Nerf manastone then give us a better one, /boggle.

Gaash, ironically enough, is the druid in NB that doesn't think druids need new heals

But NB is recruiting more clerics last I heard... =)

Only druid I've ever met to have a full viewable suit of Crystal Chitin just to look like a melee

You've met me and Aallaani, I'm sure there are more. My shield, BP and gloves were drop, bracer obviously quested. An entire set though is only 45kpp or less. I've seen a few legs and BPs for sale over the last couple weeks.

I now have a Preserved Choikidai Vocal Chords too so I can have an offhand whip. =)

Never heard of a high end guild that wasn't in perma recruiting mode for clerics. But then again my experience is limited to Karana.

I love this cleric more and more.



Keep posting and I will give you a kiss.

Post - kiss me, sexy.

Ignoring the Rant...

And doubling back a bit, ShadowfrostXev seemed to post the last sense on this thread.

Clerics can't solo easily and can't move around easily, they also tend to be a bit boring to play...as compensation they are much wanted in high end group when they are around.

Compare to Druids?

Also, for the very last time, Heals are no good without the defence to deal with them. Why can so few highbie druids understand that? Or is the idea to whine for heal now then defence in 3-6months time, ouch!

Druids will never be as desirable in high end groups as Clerics, that's why you get ports/SoW to move around and find a group. Clerics get SFA in movement skills.

-------------

Also why do so few people understand the value of spells? I see comments like, this spell has X Hps, how much mana does it burn, how much time does it take to cast, how much time does it take to cast again, what does it stack with, how easy is it to interrupt, is it resistable, and how often, how long does it last??

--------------

As far as I can tell, many class broads, not just this one, are being hi-jacked by whiners how behave like children, the idea being, i guess, to whine loud enoguh in one direction to get what they want for there character at there level for there sole benefit. Moderators should start really culling there peeps.

Ooops that sounds like a rant, but I have jsut spent 30mins reading through this thread and much has been pointless.

Since when have Druids been a Priest Class...

To me, Druids are like Bards but they burn Mana, Bards get pure movement speed, outdoors, Druids get the very profitable Ports and SoW. Both can solo in there limited way through many levels. Neither is absolutely needed in all high end groups, but can fill in, ie they can utilise, in some high end situations.

If you what MEga Heal and defence they your going to lose Ports/SoW. To get both is crazy.

"Since when have Druids been a Priest Class"

Since the class was designed, along with clerics and shamans as our brother priests?

A warrior... that can heal! Unstoppable!

Sorry... he just reminded me of that. =P

Instead of being so jaded and bitter all the time about this nerf or that buff, try enjoying your class again for the reasons you started playing it.

But when the raid bell dings, the druid sleeps.

So, what you are saying is we should have to powerlevel a second character to raid and shouldn't be able to enjoy it with the class we love to play and have spent so much time playing since the game came out?

Clerics can't solo easily and can't move around easily

That is an old argument now. Clerics can solo pretty well, they can port to their home towns, and everyone can get around using the firepots in TD (where you can now bind), or the nexus portal system which gets you all over Norath in a much faster time than running. And once PoP comes out, travel will become trivial and clerics will be one of the best at it with the ability to port to their hometown.

Also, for the very last time, Heals are no good without the defence to deal with them. Why can so few highbie druids understand that?

Which would also be a balancing factor in our use of larger heals. Clerics seem to be worried at one end that druids are going to be able to nuke, dot, ds, buff, snare, debuff, and heal which will bump them out of parties (where the mana comes from I have no idea), and on the other hand they seem to think we won't know how to control our aggro on the heal spells. Truth is, we don't usually do all that stuff anyway because it would cause too much aggro. We do know to test the waters and which spells cause more aggro, and most of us would test the waters with any new heal spells. We wouldn't be able to do much of the things that clerics fear will make them obsolete in groups, but we should be able to cover the healing in a group when no cleric is around in one of the better experience zones.

As far as I can tell, many class broads, not just this one, are being hi-jacked by whiners

I resent that statement. I prefer being called a chick, not a broad. Of course, if you are talking about Fox, she might not mind being called a broad.

Since when have Druids been a Priest Class...


I'm still scratching my head over this one. The person who made it obviously is not playing EQ, or is on some wicked drugs....

As far as I can tell, many class broads, not just this one, are being hi-jacked by




I resent that statement. I prefer being called a chick, not a broad. Of course, if you are talking about Fox, she might not mind being called a broad. [/quote]


Broads Im guessing was meant to be Boards....I guess you knew that? :P

Tils

You've met me and Aallaani

Never seen either of you out in the full CC =P

I can think of sooo many other things to do with a full suit of CC armor than take up inventory space with it so I can look like a halfling pally :p

Well only one thing really...sell it so I can try and buy so many other things

Post - kiss me, sexy.

The only kissing I want to see around here is if you're using Kahlia with some of the wood elf druid lasses...or maybe a human druid lass =D

_____
If you what MEga Heal and defence they your going to lose Ports/SoW. To get both is crazy.
_____

Errr, excuse me...? With the new port stones and clicky SoW items / Run3 etc. are you suggesting that as they aquire these items clerics healing power should decrease...?

No? Thought not....!

I have a full set of CC armor (visible and non-visible). It's my paladin disguise (and on a human it works!).

I have managed to stump players asking for SoW, etc., by simply responding, "Do I look like a druid?" And one time in SH when I was standing around doing tradeskills, I heard one passerby comment about how some foolish druid had given his epic to a guard.

But I guess a halfling would look more like a silver fire hydrant and would have to fight off the dogs....

*Disclaimer* I am a level 60 cleric. I play a level 60 cleric. These are the opinions of a 60 cleric. I have a 25 and 41 druid. I want world peace, love for our fellow man and a pony.

I think it's important to note that there are trolls everywhere. We have our fair share on the cleric boards. I mean they troll about EVERYTHING. The ones that have blown my mind recently are the people whining about the fact that the recent epic changes made the epic too easy and we should go back to the old system of fighting tooth and nail for Ragefire *boggle*

I want the new druid and shaman heals to go live. I was disappointed they didn't. I still support moving NT to 57.

What I still find amazing is that people are STILL mad about the cleric changes. I find 90% boil down to these 2 statements.

1. The game should not center around clerics
2. Clerics do not need improvements to reduce their dependancy on groups.

Now, I actually agree with #1. I am tired of being the only class in the middle. But coupled with #2 it would be devastating to the cleric class.

Where my frustration has been is that people inevitably come back to #2. They they pull out cleric troll posts to futher their point. I have never said druids do not need better heals. In fact I've been pushing for expanded non-CH heals for a very long time. Healing in general has been broken and I am very glad to see it fixed.

But to assert that clerics were "just fine" they way we were or that we were "greedy" to hold onto CH... well, needless to say a lot of clerics took exception to that. Virtually nobody was on our side when we were trying to get improved because everyone saw us as "that class with CH and res". They pointed to our 925 nuke but never the 9 second recast. They pointed to res as a "fallback" position for us despite the fact that I have never gotten a group because I could res. It seemed like it was everyone vs clerics and sometimes it still does. Those that bothered to suggest improvements typically suggested bones (like more undead nukes to use against the non-existant undead).

Did we whine? You betcha. But not because we're a whiny lot. We whined because Verant only fixes the whiners. Period. Look at the changes since we've stopped with the calm, rational feedback to VI. And that's the way VI wants it apparently. They could ignore the whines but instead they cater to them.

The explosion after the new CH spells was understandable. Put yourselves in our shoes a second. Let's say necromancers get SoW and all ports on test and druids got a 100 mana reduction in pet cost. Don't tell me there wouldn't be an explosion on these boards of whining and anger. And there would be plenty of trolls coming here going "Well, you still have XXX".

It's not an exact analogy. The druid class doesn't revolve around ports and SoW like the cleric class revolves around CH but you get the idea. We saw our one and only remaining ability given away and in exchange we got a faster and cheaper pet.

Finally, we had this wonderful gem from Absor (http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6025&perpage=15&pagenumber=2) (his first ever post on the cleric boards)
Honestly, I post to the boards that are the busiest and only when I have something to say. I haven't really got any news for Clerics, so I haven't had anything to post.

In other words "I have nothing to say to clerics". Would it really have killed Absor to come to our boards and go "We're about to improve druids and shamen on test because we see a need to raise the healing abilities of all priests. These are big changes and we need to do extensive testing before they go live. There are changes for clerics in the works that will counterbalance these changes and expand your abilities and they should go live soon but I wanted to let you know about these changes before they went on test."

That has been the biggest frustration of all. Verant just doesn't talk to us. The one and only exception would be the fixes to Judgement and EF to make them more in line with the rest of their respective spell lines. Rich himself posted his changes, we posted suggestions and he actually MADE THEM. It's a rare oasis in a long string of ingorance by VI. MoK, Velious BP effects, epic quest... Verant never ONCE saw fit to ask us what we thought. In fact, they waited almost 24 hours after we saw the CH spells on Test and the boards were a towering inferno before they came and basically said "Look, these are on Test and may not go live and stuff and we'll do... something for clerics eventually".

So when you say EQClerics is whiny as of late, you're absolutely right. But it's not by choice.

Now, if you'll excuse me I have to go whine some more...

Boanerges Thundercry
<s>High Priest</s> Whiner of Prexus

2. Clerics do not need improvements to reduce their dependancy on groups.

I don't see any of that going on here. Most druids are applauding the cleric soloing changes.

The explosion after the new CH spells was understandable. Put yourselves in our shoes a second. Let's say necromancers get SoW and all ports on test and druids got a 100 mana reduction in pet cost. Don't tell me there wouldn't be an explosion on these boards of whining and anger. And there would be plenty of trolls coming here going "Well, you still have XXX".

At this point, I don't think many would care that much. There would be some complaints sure, but EVERYONE can easily get run speed increase items or potions and even get aa skills that make you run faster indoors and out. And from everything they have shown in PoP, EVERYONE will have porting abilities by going from city to city. Even now, people can bind in the firepot room in TD, so they can get around easily that way too. It is really hard to find a druid ability that hasn't been put on some item or potion in one way or another. I even saw a post that looks like a gnomish rain stopping device is in the works. =/

In fact, they waited almost 24 hours after we saw the CH spells on Test and the boards were a towering inferno before they came and basically said "Look, these are on Test and may not go live and stuff and we'll do... something for clerics eventually".

Pretty much everyone who saw those spells also saw this.

Spell cast on you: This spell is a test spell and may not go live!
Spell cast on someone: An orc centurionThe ratio and stats on this spell may change! Don't Panic!

Do you really think a peronal post or even a tell in game would have lowered the ranting? If people want to rant, they are going to rant and no post or disclaimer put on a spell (which is still on test even after the hammers went live) will stop them from ranting.

Good post Boanerges. I really think many Druids can relate to how Clerics feel/felt about the proposed CH. Erosion of unique class abilities is cause for concern. Two main differences, though...

1) Many of our abilities were whittled away over time...little by little...bit by bit. A snare proc here, a DS potion there, an AA skill here, a melee DPS upgrade there. So, much of the reason that TDG became so jaded is that these things mounted over a significant amount of time, kinda like a festering wound. I daresay we've been a good deal more positive (9/4 patch notwithstanding) since a lot of our "little" issues have been addressed and a healing upgrade promised.

2) We have no lock on ANY essential group or raid ability. No matter how boring it is (and I know it's hideously boring), Clerics will ALWAYS have the CH rotation to keep them squarely in the end-game. Even if we get the 3k heal, my guess is that it won't be much more than a nice patch heal or xp group spell a year from now because PoP loot/encounters will continue to raise the xp bar.

So, your points are valid (IMO) but the fact remains that what Clerics "fear" about xp grouping (hence the whining) and the 3k heal, is the reality Druids have been living in for raids since Luclin.

But thank you for presenting your POV in a coherent and considerable fashion. That goes a long way in gaining respect from the community.

http://sun.he.net/~justin1/eq/sig1.jpg
Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=202599)

Boanerges:

It was really a well thought out post. I have to agree with Talenya on some of the points of course. The value of ports is about to become dramatically less important, and druids have had a few small fixes over the years but really nothing earthshattering. More to the point, the expansions have tended to give us little of value in terms of good new spells (usually one or two per expansion, and those always seem to be made obsolete by the subsequent expansion or later changes to other classes /shrug).

That all aside, I would agree that I have seen no druids complaining about clerics being able to solo. However, the specific solution given to clerics is actually in many ways a more potent damage dealing ability than druids get. Why? Because it is virtually manaless, stacks perfectly, and is even better suited to groups than solo.

I don't begrudge clerics the change. But please bear in mind that ALL druids have been told so far is that we might possibly get a single spell that does a 3k heal...and we see a variety of new and powerful healing spells going to clerics which more than offset any increase in our relative healing. We don't have any word from verant at all that our dmg ability will be getting better and many of us see clerics actually able to contribute far more dmg than druids with the new combat abilities. So we see clerics: the best healing, including true complete heal and excellent group heals and very efficient HoT's; the best buffs which everyone always wants over druid buffs; rez, which I have to disagree--it does figure into people's decision to have a cleric in a group (particuarly in a dangerous zone); nukes that come close to druids in dmg albeit a bit more slowly; and now a new manalass combat ability that makes clerics able to contribute sustained dps at virtually no mana cost.

Also remember that the value of soloing has just been decreased.

At this point, even if druids got full CH instead of the gimp one, a druid would never, ever be a tenth as desired as a cleric in an experience group. And yet, VI virtually promised that the changes they were making to the priest classes would make druids truly desired in groups. That is not going to happen with a 3k heal. And even that is begrudged us by many clerics.

At the risk of fanning the flames, what more testing are they doing? I haven't seen anyone posting update links to how the heals have changed, nor any word from a test server druid or from Verant on it at all in a few days. Are they trying a whole new spell or different spells? My own opinion of course, but the longer they are silent about any more changes, the worse I think some of these class debates are going to become.

The only identifiable change to date is the 3k heal.

There are a ton of new effects listed in lucy, but it is impossible to say if they are mob effects, new spells for pop, new effects for pop, red herrings, or possibly in there a handful of new druid spells.

We have only the posts from Verant to guide us, and again, the only "definite possibility" is the 3k heal.

Many of us are pretty jaded at this point. I don't know that I believe they have anything else planned for druids until PoP.

Well only one thing really...sell it so I can try and buy so many other things

=( Why do you think lizard bone earrings go for 120k? At some point there simply is nothing else to spend PP on because everything is NODROP or never for sale.

I think it's important to note that there are trolls everywhere. We have our fair share on the cleric boards. I mean they troll about EVERYTHING. The ones that have blown my mind recently are the people whining about the fact that the recent epic changes made the epic too easy and we should go back to the old system of fighting tooth and nail for Ragefire *boggle*


I'm happy that clerics now no longer have the insane back log they needed to get through to finish the quest. On the otherhand, I do think that they may have over done it. Personally, I think they should make the trigger spawn like the Dorf for the druids epic. 12 hour repop. 8 epics in one day on a single server (as some have reported) does seem a bit much. Also, Since it is a spawned mob, it shouldn't have it's normal loot table. Fayd, for example, only drops the epic item. Trak only drops one BP instead of it's normal loot table. I do hope that they make some minor adjustments like that to make it on par with other epic spawns, after the back up is reasonably releaved. It is a good thing, however, that they changed the old method. Personally, I thought the SF Rage was a bigger Pain than the original method.


What I still find amazing is that people are STILL mad about the cleric changes. I find 90% boil down to these 2 statements.

1. The game should not center around clerics
2. Clerics do not need improvements to reduce their dependancy on groups.

Now, I actually agree with #1. I am tired of being the only class in the middle. But coupled with #2 it would be devastating to the cleric class.


I'm glad you agree with #1. As for #2...

There are druids that say that. I really don't think they are in the majority. I'd place them, firmly, in the same categry of as the clerics that demand to get snare AND ports AND harmony AND SoW AND ..... if druids get better healing. (I think those clerics aren't in the majority either)

I'm all for clerics getting better solo ability. As long as it's reasonable. Some clerics have a fasle sense of our actual solo ability. I've read one cleric suggest that we can use quadding to get a full yellow of AA in 30 minutes to an hour! It's just not the case. It seems that both sides make knee jerk statements, or take hearsay as fact.


But to assert that clerics were "just fine" they way we were or that we were "greedy" to hold onto CH... well, needless to say a lot of clerics took exception to that. Virtually nobody was on our side when we were trying to get improved because everyone saw us as "that class with CH and res". They pointed to our 925 nuke but never the 9 second recast.


One reason why your 9 second recast time is often over looked is: For raids, you don't need to nuke. Your mana is usually reserved for healing. For groups, there is almost never a need to "chain nuke". Often times, your 600ish point nuke can be alternated with your 900ish nuke for chain nuking.


They pointed to res as a "fallback" position for us despite the fact that I have never gotten a group because I could res.


I think this is one of those abilities that clerics don't often fully appreciate. Believe me, one of the reasons you get in groups IS because you can res. I have been in groups where I was the main healer (with a shaman to slow) and on several occasions, I've had newcomers to the group leave because we had no cleric for Res. (especially key classes like Shaman and Enchanters)

An example of why Res is better than Evac is often overlooked as well. If your puller dies Evac doesn't help out at all. Res does. In any tough dungeon I've been in the puller always dies at least a couple of times. With a cleric in the group it's not a big deal. You res and keep going. Without one, the group is now facing some serious downtime.

Some clerics say Res is "only if I mess up" and "I never need to use it in XP camps." Evac is used even less. You don't evac if only a single group member dies. You evac if you're going to have a total wipe out. You will use res far more often than a druid uses evac. And in cases where druids need to evac, there is a very good chance you're going to need at least one Res anyway. (typical reason to evac is when your healer or enchanter is dead)


It seemed like it was everyone vs clerics and sometimes it still does. Those that bothered to suggest improvements typically suggested bones (like more undead nukes to use against the non-existant undead).


I think it's mostly because they are trying to keep you inline with what you can already do, vs give you a brand new skill. Ie. Druids can already heal, Incomplete heal is just an upgrade. Clerics can already DoT undead etc... It just makes more logical sense to do it along that line as opposed to giving them Slow (as some clerics have suggested), a skill they don't have in any form at all.

It's funny how our classes have swapped possitions on this, isn't it? Once apon a time, druids were considered the best class and not needing any work. Clerics, on the other hand needed some help. These days most people that don't agree that druids need help (in the post 50 world) are the die hard druid haters that wish they never created the class. On the other hand, Most other classes think that Clerics are way overpowered because of CH. Pretty Ironic really.


The explosion after the new CH spells was understandable. Put yourselves in our shoes a second. Let's say necromancers get SoW and all ports on test and druids got a 100 mana reduction in pet cost. Don't tell me there wouldn't be an explosion on these boards of whining and anger. And there would be plenty of trolls coming here going "Well, you still have XXX".


As has been stated, in a way, this is sort of happening with SoL and PoP. SoL added Runspeed 3 to all classes, which is pretty big. VI has already said that the Plane of Knowledge is going to be a transportation hub, where there will be two way portals to every city in the game. (including Velious and Luclin). No, It's not quite the same as self ports and self sow. But, RunSpeed3 is pretty close. It's not as fast, but, it can be used indoors. Because of RS3 and the upcoming transportation scheme in PoP the relative power of SoW and ports is diminished. ie. While before RS/PoP/Faithstones a druids transportation skills was 100 times better than any other class (other than wizards). After PoP is out, It will be about twice as good.

I agree that it doesn't make those two skills any less usefull, but, it makes them less needed. They will no longer be the big advantage over non porting classes they currently are.

As for your Necro comparison, It's not really the best analogy. Yes, druids (and wizards) would be up in arms. But, necro's have no teleports (other than gate). It would be granting them a skill that they don't have. The incomplete heal is an upgrade to something we've done since level 1. Yes, a 2.9K heal is a big upgrade over a 1K heal. But, until the post 50 world druids and clerics were much closer in healing ability than they currently are. So, it's not like druids are getting a new skill.

Clerics have always over reacted to any healing changes, I believe. When Druids were given SH at 54 Clerics worried just as much as the are now with iCH. When Druids were given Chloroblast at 55,NT at 60, and SH moved to 51 the boards were everybit as active with the same sort of worries. When the Non-Cleric healing penatly was removed on test there were complaints as well. None of these changes have meant doom for the cleric class. Clerics have earned a reputation because of that. That is another place where some of the anamosity may stem from.


That has been the biggest frustration of all. Verant just doesn't talk to us. The one and only exception would be the fixes to Judgement and EF to make them more in line with the rest of their respective spell lines. Rich himself posted his changes, we posted suggestions and he actually MADE THEM. It's a rare oasis in a long string of ingorance by VI. MoK, Velious BP effects, epic quest... Verant never ONCE saw fit to ask us what we thought. In fact, they waited almost 24 hours after we saw the CH spells on Test and the boards were a towering inferno before they came and basically said "Look, these are on Test and may not go live and stuff and we'll do... something for clerics eventually".


I think every class gets this. I don't recall verant ever asking druids what we want. What druids did was to come together as a community and create a list of things and sent them off to VI. VI wasn't happy about it, but, no one can deny that a fair number of the suggestions in it have happened.

First of All: I have a lvl 55 Necro, lvl 50 Wizard, and lvl 40 Druid.

Druids/Necros are Exceptional Soloers. This is a proven fact. Druids especially are adept from level one.

Now Druids/Necros are not especially needed in large numbers in the end game. This is where the specialist classes shine (Warriors, Clerics, Wizards, Rogues ). Now to lvl a Wizard, Rogue, or Cleric to this level is much harder than a Druid/Necro. A wizard especially does not become very powerful until 50+. The druid/necro has always been powerful and soloable. Wizards/Clerics/Rogues have always had to group and felt at certain times to be vastly underpowered to defeat even single blues while Druids/Necros would kite/reservse kite groups of the same blues.

This is the cause of the problem. Many feel that because Druids/Necros ARE perfectly balanced the way they are because of their CLASS SKILL at all lvls. Most others classes sacrifice to get to the Ultimate Power at end game.

No wants to see anyone left out or nerfed but come on really look at Druids. They are a great class to play and a lot of fun from day one. Being a druid means you sacrifice a little at the end for fun all the way through.

A lot of the other classes is just sacrifice until the End Game. Then those classes really shine and they should.

GL to all and have fun.

=( Why do you think lizard bone earrings go for 120k? At some point there simply is nothing else to spend PP on because everything is NODROP or never for sale.

That's why Verant created twinks!

I consider twinks to be long term banking =D

When I have spare money...I twink slowly over the course of months.

When I need 95kpp over a few weeks to get stuff...I liquidate a twink!

Being a druid means you sacrifice a little at the end for fun all the way through.

So, druids have it a little easier to start, they lose ground after fifty, and suck for raiding at 60 and all is right with the world? Compare the ammount of time spent at those levels and you will see more time spent post fifty than pre fifty, and in the end, you will spend the most time at 60 because there is nowhere to go up from there. So, by your logic, druids should be mostly useless for a majority of their playing time, or be used to powerlevel up a useful class. NO class should be left out of the end game period!
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<<No wants to see anyone left out or nerfed but come on really look at Druids. They are a great class to play and a lot of fun from day one. Being a druid means you sacrifice a little at the end for fun all the way through.>>

When I made my druid 3+ years ago the "endgame" was level 50 ... NOT 60. Vox and Nagefen were the boss mobs. Fear, PoA, and PoH were the high end game. Druids could deal with this. Todays endgame makes the previous like a Sunday stoll in the park. LOL... they even went as far as to put banishment on Naggy and Vox for anyone over level 52 who would dare to fight them.
The game has evolved 3 expansions and 10 levels ( although some would say the 10 levels equals the previous 50) and the druid has advanced very minuetly compared to the rest of the game. Content and classes.
Almost everything we had has been given away in one form or another to boot.
So because I made my druid before post 50 was ever even a concept, I should sacrifice a little in the "new" endgame?
Sorry but the druid has sacrificed MORE then enough.
We have watched the other classes get stonger and more versatile (alot at our expense) as we kept getting picked apart and weakened relative to the game.
Again, like MANY old time druids, I made mine LONG before the game went in this direction. Verant hooked me on this EQ long before level 51 was a game reality, and they take my money each month like everyone else. I have as much right to be desired and needed in the endgame as any other class.
And no I should not have to give up ANYTHING to play todays game because I made a character decision years ago, when Verant is the one who upped the bar, not me or the druid community.

Selldor

Now to lvl a Wizard, Rogue, or Cleric to this level is much harder than a Druid/Necro.


BWAHAHAHA!


Sorry, an argument based on a patent falsehood isn't worth arguing.

Wizzies are a pita to pl 8( hehe...

And I never see any crystal chitin bp's or legs for sale!! So frustrating!

It's not like I can get a group in velks or anything 8(

Tia

As a cleric I have to disagree a little zero. I do agree that druids are much much easier and faster to level up to 50 (my druid took only half the time played as my cleric to reach the same level) but instead of punishing then post 50 for that they need to make the other classes as easy to level up to 50.

It is frustrating to level slowly and watch the druids shoot past you to the 50+ game, but for what payoff? Sorry just as we should not have to suffer the slower advance pre 50 they should not have to suffer the isolation post 50. Give them some darn heal spells already.

and Foxfyre as a cleric I do appreciate it that you do stay less bitter than others. It helps to know that one of the moderators wont jump down your throat if you present your opinion. I have said it before and I say it again /bow foxfyre

"instead of punishing then post 50 for that they need to make the other classes as easy to level up to 50"

absolutely couldn't agree more. i hear so much about "you can solo to xx level, you should have to pay for this in balance" and it's hard to wonder what people think the goal is in eq: to get to 60, or to explore and dominate as many zones/monsters/content as possible? i've been 60 since 2000, so "getting to 60" hasnt really been a concern for a couple years. What to do with a toon that's still paying for being able to level quickly is the real concern. I didn't get to 60 so i could say "i win" and make a twink. I'd much rather see other classes be able to reach the upper level game faster, for primaries AND twinks.

/derail on

It's alot harder to twink/PL a caster class so almost everyone has a rogue/monk/whatever melee twink, many of which have become mains. Primaries have the same problem because of mudflation, you can get gear/weapons as an untwinked level 30 for dirt cheap that pre RoK would have been considered godly. Casters don't have this luxury, or not nearly to the extent that melees do.

/derail off

Actually, it isn't that hard to twink or powerlevel a caster class these days (especially for a druid). As a matter of fact, I think I could powerlevel a wizard easier than just about any other class in the game and keep their evo skill up at the same time (or at least somewhat close). You just have to think outside the box of normal powerleveling.

As a cleric I have to disagree a little zero. I do agree that druids are much much easier and faster to level up to 50 (my druid took only half the time played as my cleric to reach the same level) but instead of punishing then post 50 for that they need to make the other classes as easy to level up to 50.

My cleric took, hmmm something like 1/15th the time to break 50 as my druid. I twinked a wizard HARD, kept her perma KEIed and SoWed etc. and quadded like crazy and my moderatly twinked cleric easily outleveled her soloing with a big stick.

So apparantly clerics need to be made worse than useless in the end game to compensate for their overly easy leveling, right? *chuckle*

i'm sure the advent of kei helped some ;) honestly i havent tried in a while, the last time i tried to PL a wizard (twink of a friend, wizard was in his 30's, this was probably a year ago) i gave him potg and logged on my monk to beat stuff up and fd it when its hp was 1 nuke from dead. it worked pretty well, but with my experience PLing melees with a damage shield it was less effective and ALOT more work.

Heh heh I think you are probably the exception L1ndara. But I would love to talk to you to find out your secrets. Just please tell me it is not a guild powerleveled cleribot. There are way too may cleribots and druidbots pl'd and run by guilds already.

You don't have to powerlevel a druid unless it's a melee who want's his travelwhore.

At a guild level there must be enough abandonned main char druids around normally.

Actually I have seen many guilds pl druids or wizzys in order to get travelbots. Makes collecting the guild for raids easier. Many guild players have two or more computers and commonly duo box for exp. So it is a simple procedure for them to log on travelbot and start picking up people for raids.

i'm sure the advent of kei helped some honestly i havent tried in a while, the last time i tried to PL a wizard (twink of a friend, wizard was in his 30's, this was probably a year ago) i gave him potg and logged on my monk to beat stuff up and fd it when its hp was 1 nuke from dead. it worked pretty well, but with my experience PLing melees with a damage shield it was less effective and ALOT more work.

See, you did it the slow way, hehe. Should have had your druid do the tanking. Buff up the said caster with at least potg and sow. Buff yourself up with everything including regen, thorns, and natures recovery if you have it (the more regen the better). Go out and smack three mobs, bring it back and get the caster to damage each mob. You use ae snare to keep the mobs busy (might want to keep your mr up, haven't done this since the resist change). Wizards are one of the easiest since they can ae the mobs while they are beating themselves to death on you. You might have to tone down the ds down if the mobs are too low level, but at higher levels it is fine to go all out. I have done this before in OT and can pull non stop until I get a goon, hehe.

Actually I have seen many guilds pl druids or wizzys in order to get travelbots. Makes collecting the guild for raids easier. Many guild players have two or more computers and commonly duo box for exp. So it is a simple procedure for them to log on travelbot and start picking up people for raids.

Actually, I think in my guild that about half (okay, probably more like 1/4) the people there have access to a retired druid to port people around. Those range from the high fourties all the way to level 60.

On that note brum, I've also seen players PL the following "bots":

* chanter bots, for increased mana regen.
* magician bots, for CoH and mod rods.
* necro bots, for corpse summons.
* cleric bots, for superior healing, buffing and rez.
* shaman bots, for PL'ing your monk.
* naturally, wizard and druid bots for porting.

Guess this leaves pure melees, hybrids and bards as the "not-in-style" botting classes. But it's "ok" to PL these classes as "mains"...

What was the point again?

-Mylene
Tarew Marr

A cleric is easy to level. I can put a cleric at level 40 in maybe four days. From there to level 56 I can put him in a high xp group every single night. Guaranteed.


Wizzies aren't hard to level, unless you consider 'boring' the same as 'hard'. They take a little longer, but the wizard is that absolute master of the quad. They do it very well, and level well as a result.

Rogues, dunno. Farthest I ever took one was level 30. That didn't take long, but I just had no interest in the class. Deleted him almost a year ago.

The only reason to PL a port bot is if you don't want to pay for another account. Otherwise, there are plenty of parked druids hanging around any guild.

Are we talking 1st character leveled versus follow ons? I leveled my druid and cleric up together as my first characters keeping them about equal. All of my follow on characters (mage, pally, rogue, wiz and enchanter) were super easy cause I knew where to go and they were twinked.

Regardless of how y'all feel about it 1000xZERO summed up the way ALOT of other players feel about Druids.......you may think it is incorrect ,you may not like it....but it IS (perceived) reality.

Dlaren

I wonder if it's possible that the reason there are so many 'whiners' and 'complainers' on many of the boards is because there are a lot of genuinely dissatisfied EQ customers out there!!!

If I were Verant I would be silly to not believe there is some fire where there is smoke. But that of course assumes they really care to much right now - after all all the whiners will still rush out and buy the next expansion!

Completely, sorta off subject here (well not really)..Rayne has finally decided to lock druid threads over on the cleric boards. So, hopefully we'll get less trollers. And we can probably offer the same "respect" and not troll them with posts on our boards regarding posts on theirs.

Any second character is going to take less time than your first character, regardless of class. My druid took me a looong time to level (started last July and only 54 now). Why? I explored in places I shouldn't have. Got killed by those stupid dark elves in WC, lets see, 4 or 5 times all together. Got a group to try Runnyeye at level 19...died at least 3 times that night. Tried SplitPaw...it went ok until someone pulled a train and the bard we had did not seem to know how to mez. Oh yes and there was the Najena experiment with a warrior partner...heh. Since it was my first character, I was more concerned with trying out new zones rather than leveling as fast as possible. Sure if you wanted to level fast as a druid, you could get a kei and quad kite nonstop and get some good experience (if you have a stable connection), but to assume that ALL druids do this is rather unfair.

I pretty much grouped my way to where I am now. At times I would get frustrated with not being able to level and soloed, but that happened rarely. Usually I just work on tradeskills when I can't group. Anyway, I leveled at the same rate as any other class I grouped with. Except halflings, rogues, and warriors, who I believe have an exp bonus.

So Brum15, how do you propose grouping classes should level faster? Larger bonus for full group? I think this is a good idea.

I know there is already a group bonus, but yeah making it larger so people would always try to fill up a group rather then saying 'nah we are good enough already' They need to give druids healing spells at a lower level (ie move both superior heal and Nt up a couple levels) and then make grouping exp a lot more attractive than soloing. Get druids involved in groups from the early twenties at least.

I will apologize to the druid community right now for my next statement because I know we as clerics have a lot of stupid members ourselves who even with the old combat system would stand up and melee when oom instead of medding for that extra heal.

But here goes and please dont take this personal as I am sure it does not apply to 98% of you. My regular sunday morning group has a druid who has played with us every week from level 1. He is not as good of a healer as I am but my group trusts him 100% in COM or KC or wherever they go if I am unable to make it. Why? they know he is a "group" druid. Going thru our 40s, I would once in a while play my paladin and if we did not have a full group would occasionally have a druid or cleric join us. On the average the clerics were more attentive to healing. Maybe it is just our boring personalities heh heh. We would have druids wanting to pull and nuke as the main healer and then be oom. On the other hand we had some dang awesome druids as prime healers and in talking to them we discovered that they hated soloing and always sought out groups. They immediatly went on friends list. Later days while short members, we would do a who all friends before we even looked for healers in zone and coax them into joining us. I think if it was more beneficial to druids to group from an early level, a lot of the stereotype about druids being bad healers would be gone.

. I agree your healing is inefficient but with the perception a lot of people have (probably wrong on 98% of you) you can not get groups in areas even where your healing is good enough. It is not always a matter of they dont trust the druids spells as much as they dont trust a druid who may be grouping for the first time for all they know. If people got used to druids being in groups for the early levels much of this prejudice would disappear.

Check out the gripes from people on PON about clerics almost letting people die because they want to play with their cool new toys. People want their healers to pay attention to healing and to be very practiced at it. If you were a tank joining a group in NTOV with a cleric as main healer and he stated that he had just bought the account on ebay and this was his first group experience, you would probably Disband immediatly. When you hire a plumber or contractor, do you not look for experience? We need to get druids in groups right from the beginning and let people get used to seeing them in groups not as the person who just pulled a quad kite past their group.

You may be surprised at the number of clerics who actually do want you to get better heals. Am I worried about losing out on exp groups--a little. But my guild needs the raid power and to me that is more important. For me I would love to see you get CH and rez both for raiding purposes, but that would scare the bejessis out of me when it came to grouping. Maybe some way to give you the CH for raid purposes only and give you 75% incomplete heal for everday grouping. I dont know and dont want to get into that. Besides with the new /army raid or whatever hopefully we will start seeing groups larger than 6.

oh well I leave you with this thought

cake>pie

"On the one hand there are not enough clerics to go around because the entire game consists on sitty on your butt and CH. On a side note Druids don't really want this job, trust me, else you wouldn't play a druid. Imagine hearing "Druid, if you cast one more nuke you're out." A line every cleric has heard several times. When you do become the default healers you'll be wishing for the old-days."

THANK YOU!! been saying this for months and all i get are funny looks :P

Brum, I hear your comment about people complaining when they arent healed. At lower levels (under perhaps 40-45 when melee are getting experience on the the receiving end of CH, many seem to expect to kept near full health.

My cleric is a level 32 alt, and was grouped in OT with two guild alts (28 warrior and 33 warrior) when a non guild ranger wanted to join. He was invited (lvl 30) into the group and when a sabertooth pull resulted in an additional sabertooth add we had to do some scrambling. The guild alts knew I wouldn't let them die if at all possible but the ranger started screaming for heals at 2 1/2 bubs of health. I eventually had to resort to medding just enough to be able to cast Heal (GHeal would take too much mana) as bandaids. No one died, in fact no one went under 1 1/2 bubs, but it was exciting. We eventually had to disband the ranger, never seemed to grasp that full health isn't a right, its a privlege.

That night, playing the cleric again, we made a group of 1 cleric and 3 druids when conventional class choices were not an option. It was a little slow, but we had fun snaring, fearing(me) and dot stacking the mobs. The druids were all level 31-33 and it was their first time to get a druid group together to hunt. It seemed wierd to be telling them what we could accomplish as a druid group when my character was a cleric but we had fun.

As a final note, my druid grew up in a small group consisting of two druids a ranger and a paladin. Healing has been a way of life for her, and she still would much prefer a cleric in the group for heals.

Eloria Rivermist
54 Wanderer, Warden of Tunare

Eloriana
32 Cleric of Tunare

Rayne has finally decided to lock druid threads over on the cleric boards. So, hopefully we'll get less trollers.

Not necessarily. If people can't complain there, they'll be more likely to do it somewhere else. Why would the inability to attack druids there stop people from doing it here?

Incidentally, they're not just locking threads. They're also banning anybody who says absolutely anything negative about druids, or even says something referring to druids that the moderator feels is in bad taste. In fact, they even banned somebody for posting a story about how a druid discovered Luclin. (I'm not exactly sure how that story was an attack on druids, but...)

On a related note, EQ Druids also forbade their readers from attacking clerics. Their moderator threatened to lock threads and ban anybody who persists in cleric bashing after their thread is locked.

Incidentally, they're not just locking threads. They're also banning anybody who says absolutely anything negative about druids, or even says something referring to druids that the moderator feels is in bad taste. In fact, they even banned somebody for posting a story about how a druid discovered Luclin. (I'm not exactly sure how that story was an attack on druids, but...) The thread was created for the express purpose of seeing how far Rayne would go. The entire point of said thread was to annoy Rayne and defy him. Despite the thread being somewhat lighthearted, here's the quote that caused Rayne to take action:

Thread dedicated to Rayne - the one who didn't want to hear about druids Rayne has a no bull**** policy. If he says he's going to lock threads and ban people if you do something, you better believe that he WILL lock threads and ban people when they do it.

On a related note, EQ Druids also forbade their readers from attacking clerics. Their moderator threatened to lock threads and ban anybody who persists in cleric bashing after their thread is locked.

I'm glad that the Druid's Grove community, as a vast majority, is above such conduct.

I can think of maybe one or two people on here who have bashed clerics...and they know better now.

Actually, the cleric bashing I saw at EQ Druids wasn't much different than things I've seen here (or things I've seen on EQ Clerics regarding druids). It was things about the other class is whiners, greedy, selfish, and so forth. But then again, I didn't read too many threads there, so I might have missed something.

I think this entire thread is a perfect example of the very first post.

what u talking about? Clerics suck ><

Zerai Norezforyou
50 ASSLING Cleric of Vazaelle

$$