View Full Forums : Renewing my call for SCFM


Scirocco
09-05-2002, 10:08 AM
I argued for this before on the basis that if druid/wizard nuking were in balance before the AA skills got put in, then we needed SCFM to maintain the balance. We already get SCF and Quick Damage, and SCFM would not be unbalancing (especially considering manaburn). Remember that nuking is one of our primary roles on raids.

The new cleric healing spells, based on reports from clerics I've seen here, pretty much eliminate the druid healing role on raids...yes, even our secondary and tertiary roles. Clerics outside the CH rot can now lay on a fast heal (2.75 secs) that does significantly more than chloroblast (and even more than NT!). The only reason I can see to even mem a healing spell when a cleric is around is because they've gotten distracted with their hammer...:)

Anyway, with our secondary/tertiary healing role essentially eliminated (and a 3K 10 second heal is not going to bring it back), I resign myself to being a junior wizard/necro. I do need the missing tools, though: SCFM and a DoT upgrade.

ccLothar
09-05-2002, 10:10 AM
I don't want to be a healer anyhow. Iam4nukes.

Trevize
09-05-2002, 10:12 AM
I like this idea much more then the healing one!




Alan are you listening?

ElethiomelTimberfall
09-05-2002, 10:15 AM
I agree 120%.

Like I've said in other threads, it should be abundantly clear even to the most die-hard cleric wannabe druids that we will NEVER be balanced as healers; if people here continue to define balance by how we rate against clerics healing, you'll never be happy.

I really feel our damage output and debuffing skills are where are balance interests should lie, though I'm not sure exactly what should be done.

That said, SCFM is a *great* start.

Remi
09-05-2002, 10:27 AM
Add me to the list! :) My mana is much more efficiently used causing damage rather than healing anymore.

Also let's add Spell casting subtlety to the list for mitigation of the agro.

Talyena Trueheart
09-05-2002, 10:32 AM
I agree that it would be a common sense idea.

I do just want to point out though that this would do very little for us as far as balance and raid or group desirability. It would also leave the game horribly broken with the main way for most classes to get experience revolving around the abilities of one single class. But, I'm always for more damage :)

Scirocco
09-05-2002, 10:33 AM
*bonk*

How could I forget Spell Casting Subtlety! An important part of the nuking arsenal.

I am serious about this, by the way. Keep in mind that in terms of absolute nuking damage, nothing really changes. SCFM doesn't increase our maximum damage, just doubles our chance of a crit (at SCFM 3). And subtlety just let's us avoid becoming roadkill a little bit quicker...

Quelm
09-05-2002, 10:54 AM
I agree. SCFM would help druids. Please get rid of Enhanced Root and refund the points of any who were curious enough to buy it.

In my opinion, Subtlety > (ND + CS + CA)

As casters, why did we suddenly get 3 melee arch skill categories, when a useful alternative existed?

Benkane
09-05-2002, 10:55 AM
Your nukes do good damage already and you do get heal's, even if they don't match a clerics. If you want nukes so badly all the times, make a Wizard IMO and level them. Druid's are great as they can dable in everything basically. As a wizard we get 1 single thing...Nukes. You shouldn't have the increasing ability's that we do to the extream. SCFM is something that is wonderful for an all nuking class. You as a druid are not just about nukes. I prefer a druid in my raiding group more then a cleric simply because there heal's are about what my life can get to, or good enough to keep me alive in the raiding.

As for that MB comment, ask any high end Wizard that has MB and they will tell you against anything luclin raid wise, it is absolutely useless. If they tell you otherwise they are lieing to you. Better DPS is attenable on protracted fight's with Sunstrike, EER, GSS coupled with SCM, SCF, SCFM. Now of course if you get 12 MB wizards together you can do some of the 100k mobs :p , not still on tipical raids MB is not used unless the mob is a low life mob.

Scirocco
09-05-2002, 11:01 AM
As a wizard we get 1 single thing...Nukes.

LOL...not this tired old argument again. Let's pretend we're grown up and mature and admit that wizard get more than one single thing, okay? It really will help with your credibility.

SCFM is something that is wonderful for an all nuking class.

And druids are a nuking class. So we should get SCFM. Glad you agree.


You as a druid are not just about nukes.

Give me some of what you're smoking. Then go look at the polls that show that about 60% of all high level druids consider themselves to be primarily nukers.

Also, you seemed to have missed the recent patch. Druids used to have a tertiary healing role. No longer. See my first post above, please.


BTW, do you agree that druid and wizard nuking was in balance at level 60 pre-AA?

Benkane
09-05-2002, 11:13 AM
In a raid place wizards nuke and evac(hopefully not :) ), but that's about it. Oh I guess I can Spellshield some people before the fight if it's a caster we fight :p

Druid's are a partial nuking class, they are not a pure nuking class. I agree with you totally that yes, druid' do a lot of nuking in a raid, but they do also do spot healing(which has saved my arse enough times :) ) and Sundering for Fire nukes. As wizards we do Nuke's Nuke's and when we get tired of that we do more Nukes, of course your a wizard so you know better then I in a raid :p But, no I don't think you should get SCFM.

Yes I read the patch, but a druid can still heal the caster's just fine in a raid situation imo.

As far as balancing in nukes pre-luclin, I doubt everyone will ever totally agree they are happy and think it was balanced, now or then. Pre-luclin wizards had Sunstrike as the primary nuke. 1800dd aprox. Druid's Wildfire, 1000 aprox. Being that we are pure nukers I'd say that's a good spread of damage between a pure nuker and a secondary one. Overall though people will always think they should get something and others will think they shouldn't. <shrug> that's life though.

ElethiomelTimberfall
09-05-2002, 12:05 PM
LOL. Look, a Wizard wants to talk to us about balancing AA. How cute.

OK, let's talk about balanced AA abilities. Let's see, what completely unbalancing AA abilities might wizards have that set them apart as nukers? Hmm. I wonder. Perhaps someone at Verant needs to look in to wizard AA, since they are in such a "balancing" mood lately.

(no I'm not seriously calling for a MB nerf, just kidding.)

Druids getting SCFM would not harm wizards in the least, and would seriously help druids. So far your only argument against it seems to center on the same logic of a kid grabbing his toys to himself and not wanting to share. Do you have a REAL reason druids should not get this ability?

Fayne Dethe
09-05-2002, 12:18 PM
I agree after this last fiasco of a patch, druids need SCFM. Verant clearly does not see druids as viable healers - clerics are now FAR better backup healers. I say forget about the new druid percent heal, it wont help matters any - it wont be useful in high level xp groups (must xp on level 56+ mobs to get EQUIVALENT to old xp or better), and its lack of usefulness at raids has been discussed many times in the past. Before every wizard and their grandma comes here and say "wizards only nuke", well look at druids on raids - they dont have much of a role other than nuking especially with the change in cleric healing. Damage shields - taken care of by the mage, buffs - um yeah right, potg isnt needed anymore except as self buff (and before people mention Marzin Mark, Ancient spells are dropping in Vex Thal after the last patch so guilds with MM will be using Ancient Aegolism instead), healing - um the new ethereal remedy makes druid fast healing obsolete and new group heal is far better at healing AOE and group regen was given to shamans with Luclin, dots - druids have ONE single dot thats any good so the new dot stacking is far more beneficial to necros/shamans, debuffs - RFS/disjunction line of spells that require one druid and have little to no tangible benefits (well after last patch, fire debuff might help a bit more). Wizards get some 2ndary crap that isnt that big of deal like Spellshield and their re-done pet is the equivalent of the druid dot, and of course translocate line of spells. All those secondary abilities of wizzies are on the same level as all the abilities of druids - some help on raids, but not that useful.

Even if druids are given SCFM, they are still far behind wizards - the wizards still have better nukes, innate crits, spell casting subtletely + concussion spell, and of course manaburn which is incredibly useful to raid (nuke at beginning with 0 aggro, then use mod rod and med a little bit to continue nuking with normal nukes). Also, I think lures might be a bit more useful since I was noticing alot of full resists of moonfire last night ;p. Yeah, Garrisons is rare as hell (should have it drop off all the end bosses to luclin - seru, atten ra, and emperor), but at least EER is starting to become more common dropping off both Ssra bosses and THO. Only about 50% of 60th druids have moonfire so that isnt even a given ;p. Druids fall way behind the curve without any SCF - mages should be getting this too. The nukes in the past have been pretty well balanced, but the lack of SCFM has really thrown mages and druids FAR behind wizards.

As a compromise why not give druid/mages a slightly less version of SCFM? Make it cost 9 AA pts and be the equivalent of SCFM2 (originally costs 3+6=9 pts to get as a wizzy) and call it a single skill like Spell Casting Fury Adeptness. Thus, wizards would enjoy the benefit of getting level 1 early at only 3 pts and go to level 3, while druids/mages would have only one skill of SCFM that's the equivalent to wizard level 2.

ElethiomelTimberfall
09-05-2002, 12:21 PM
SCFM is not that uber or unbalancing. Makes no sense to have a watered down version. Just give us the real thing.

Seriena
09-05-2002, 12:24 PM
Sure why not, rangers get inate camo...our best aa skill. Why shouldn't we have SCFM?

I would love it personally.

Fayne Dethe
09-05-2002, 12:25 PM
My suggestion wasnt really all that watered down - just instead of spending 18 pts to get SCFM3 (isnt it 3, 6, 9 pt progression?), druids and mages only get up to SCFM2 as one single skill and it cost the same amount of points, ie, 9 total. You know if they just flat out gave SCFM1-3, there would be alot of wizard complaints, this would be a little something to stop all the moaning. A very watered down version would be having to spend 18 pts for half the value of the wizard version ;p.

Scirocco
09-05-2002, 12:33 PM
there would be alot of wizard complaints

I don't care any more. Let the wizards moan all they like.

What SCFM3 does is add 7 percent to the chance to crit, thus doubling it from 7% for SCF 3 to 14%. Not including the innate crit that wizards get.

Scirocco
09-05-2002, 12:36 PM
Nah, haven't retired yet. Thinking about it, but I'll go solo some level 60 mobs first, just to win this particular PvV round...

Sunfire
09-05-2002, 02:30 PM
I'd take SCFM and some better heals and WoN turned into a lure DOT and then I might feel a little better about this patch .... a little...



Sunfire - 60 Heirophant - Rodcet Nife

Milwein
09-05-2002, 03:12 PM
Make WoN a lure dot? What's the point? It would be a Bracerdot that's bound to stick! whopee!

Ehran Dyrwulf
09-05-2002, 03:24 PM
If warriors can now get PE (I think that's the correct AA skill I'm thinking off) then druids danged well should get SCFM.

daser
09-05-2002, 03:49 PM
I am all for it.

SCFM and SCS should have been skills Druids could chose from the beginning.

But it wont fix us as a class, since how many have 24 + AA points, i dont think it is a large percentage of the druids playing.

If they did this they would still need to find something that also helped in the lvls from 50 to 60.

Anyone tried the delete spells function yet.= )

Since all our healing spells are store bought, those might be a good choice to test this new feature on.

Daser
Lvl 60 Druid
Arch Overseers
Bristlebane

Tubbz
09-05-2002, 07:46 PM
I wanna do DAMAGE! Not heal dammit

Arrysi
09-05-2002, 08:02 PM
geez, guess i'll be the lone voice that disagrees with this idea. i enjoy nuking, but i think wizards should remain in having this class defining skill. if anything, i think mages are next up class wise in getting this, but their pets already improve their damage output. i think druids should get their own line of critical skills that shortens the length of their dots and maybe doubling the damage it does. this would be a little bit more fair...but then necros and shamans would need something for it too.

seriously, if you want to do a lot of nuke damage, you should be wizard. we have sow, heals, snares, better ac/hp buffs than them. furthermore, we don't have to sit our butts in sro or oot for the darn jboots. wizards need to get a jboot to solo safely while we just ensnare and get 10 minutes to figure out what to do. in all fairness, this is one bad idea for the game as a whole.

Scirocco
09-05-2002, 08:26 PM
How did you miss the fact that we are the second best nukers in the game? We are the best wisdom nukers, as a matter of fact.

Nuking is hardly a class defining skill, by the way. And neither is critical nuking.

Scirocco
09-05-2002, 08:49 PM
im gonna start a druid..

Good. 'Cause all the druids are starting clerics, and there won't be enough druids to go around anymore...

Talyena Trueheart
09-05-2002, 08:53 PM
You mean you don't have a port bot druid already? You are way behind the curve.

Kenuon
09-05-2002, 08:57 PM
While this is a great idea in concept, improve our damage because we can't heal. I really doubt there can be anything to gain from this.

If we look at our recent attempts to get Druids healing upgrades, the resulting changes only made Clerics better healers.

If Verant do consider this seriously, and place on the Test server a Druid nuke upgrade. I can only foresee Verant making Wizards even more powerful in the nuking role.

Wizards, if you have anything to learn from the Clerics, imitate the behaviour of the Clerics on their boards and on our Druid's Grove and get upgrades.

I look forward to seeing Battle Wizards with an uber melee/debuffing/procing/nuking Familiar.

My personal deadline to see significant upgrades to the Druid class is today's patch. As our brother Sorrun says, "It's just a game, once it's not fun, move on."

--
Kenuon Windrunner
Druid of the 3 Steps - "1 step forward 2 steps back"

Arrysi
09-05-2002, 08:57 PM
How did you miss the fact that we are the second best nukers in the game? We are the best wisdom nukers, as a matter of fact.

Nuking is hardly a class defining skill, by the way. And neither is critical nuking. - Scirocco


didn't know that it was a "fact" about druids being the second best nukers. my alt 56 mage probably can dish out just as much damage in a shorter period of time than my druid with a level 54 spell. wizards aren't the best nukers because they have the max amount of damage. they're the best because they can dish out all that damage fast. seen a mage with critical using scars of sigil on mobs? 2.5 second cast doing about 1k damage each hit. to say the least, its a debate which class is the second best...though so many mages seem to think druids are.

nuking may be done by a LOT of classes, but when you think about serious nuke damage and lure damage, its wizards that hold that title. heck, you can say a bard is a nuker and be right, but tell a group, "i'm getting a nuker...here's the bard now." they'll probably think you're smoking something. :p

Kenny Smith
09-06-2002, 01:28 AM
didn't know that it was a "fact" about druids being the second best nukers

Fact alert !

Mage BEST DD

Ancient Shock of Sun
Mana 334
Damage 1125
Cast time 6.0

Druids Top 2 nooks

Ancient Starfire of Ro
Mana 285
Damage 1150
Cast time 6.0

Moonfire
Mana 320
Damage 1150
Cast time 6.2

So yes id say it is a fact ;)

Lindam Mystfyre
09-06-2002, 03:03 AM
I am all for SCFM and SCS...whether or not we will get it is a totally different story. One can hope though....

;)

GrunEQ
09-06-2002, 03:18 AM
So, you want to be the 2nd best healers and the 2nd best nukers.

Hmmmmmmmmm

Please choose one, you hurt your credibility trying for both.

IMHO, you should not have Moonfire and should get HWoP variant. That's the healing Druid class.

If you want to nuke, get NO changes to your heals and get SCFM to boost damage. Maybe even a new DD on a different resist. That is the nuking Druid.

Pick one or you just look foolish and greedy. The old days of the Druid being able to do everything are long gone as you know. Decide a future and push for that.

Or realize it's just a game like people have said, and stop playing when it's no fun :) I have left 3 times since March 99 at least.

Seriena
09-06-2002, 03:50 AM
Check out that Ancient spell. We really got the shaft when it comes to those spells sheesh. 35 less mana and 2 sec reduction casting time.

Arrysi
09-06-2002, 04:21 PM
"Fact alert !

Mage BEST DD

Ancient Shock of Sun
Mana 334
Damage 1125
Cast time 6.0

Druids Top 2 nooks

Ancient Starfire of Ro
Mana 285
Damage 1150
Cast time 6.0

Moonfire
Mana 320
Damage 1150
Cast time 6.2

So yes id say it is a fact


Kensmith Jellotoker
60 Druid Halfling TZ
Self proclaimed hypocrite and Officer of Veneration" - Kenny


that's nice and all, but you forget mages can summon that bracer that boost that damage out put by 20%. ;)

so if you want to get down an gritty with it, here are the actual figures.

1125 + 20% = 1350 dd

the druids dd = 1150 and same cast as mage.

this is all by spells ONLY. no uber items, or that 1% population gear. heck, these spells shouldn't even be counted much since ancient spells aren't even a standard bought spell.

if you want to use the regular spells that most semi capable druids/mages can get a hold of, use moonfire and shock of fiery blades.

mage = 1005 + 20% = 1201

druid = 1125 with a .2 longer cast time.

so Kenny, your argument doesn't hold water. spell for spell, mages are still the second best nukers around. this is why i laught at mages who complain they're not the second best nukers...the obviously don't use their focus items which they bought for...what? 14pp?!! pfft. anyways, not going to go into overpowered mages or whatnot, just wanted to let you know that it is NOT a "fact" that we are the second best nukers.

Scirocco
09-06-2002, 04:41 PM
Heh...I didn't mean to start a fight with mages. I am more than willing to share the no. 2 nuking spot with mages. Good enough?

My point was simply that druids are as much about nuking as we are about healing. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with being tied for second on the nuking ladder and the healing ladder. That's historically been our position.

Arrysi
09-06-2002, 04:46 PM
/agree Scirocco

that's exactly my point. we are in par with mages with nuking, and that's good enough. we are NOT in par with the other priest classes in healing however. this is my sticky point. our healing ability needs a bit of tweaking to make us more useful as healers, but i understand the clerics fear in grouping. i hope there is a solution that both clerics and druids can live with.

furthermore, i didn't mean to get into a fight with mages, heh. its just that i see a lot of mages complain about their nukes not being good enough, and i have a alt mage that tells me otherwise. i just think its funny that mages always argue that druids are second best while i just don't see it. *to any mage reading this, no offense to you intened.* :)

Kenny Smith
09-09-2002, 03:17 AM
so Kenny, your argument doesn't hold water. spell for spell, mages are still the second best nukers around


Interesting theory you have there. Spell for spell you say and then go one to mention your actually casting 2 spells to the druids 1 spell. Hmm i sense a sinking argument !

Mate come on ..if your going to be pedantic about druids not being able to use ID3 talisman or summoned bracer but mages can use the mage summoned bracer then i think we should take a look at the renewed stats.

Summon Ruby Bracelet
Mana: 160
Casting Time: 6.00 seconds


Now add that to your nook time and tell me Mages have better/more efficient DD's than druids.( Granted its only gonna affect the first 3 or 4 nook times, but after casting the summoned bracer you allready have the druid dishing out 1150 damage and starting on the second cast while you have just equipped your bracer)

I know that theory is stretching the realms of feasability but if youre gonna compare nook for nook at least add the same modifiers for both classes. Seeing as how the mage summoned bracer can be used by mages and druids its hardly fair to say druids cant have this item when i know for a fact that focus items are dished out to me within 10 mins of me loggin on.

Bare stats, no modifiers, non ancient spells, 1 cast and see who has the "best" DD spell druid or mage...if you cant see its a druid then i can run it thru with you again but i sense ill be waisting my time.

Schaos1701
09-09-2002, 03:35 AM
"Pick one or you just look foolish and greedy. The old days of the Druid being able to do everything are long gone as you know. Decide a future and push for that."

Umm...they just pointed out near the beginning of the post that this is something the druids would like if the healing upgrades don't come through.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
09-09-2002, 05:22 AM
The Archpriest speaks Truth.

I agree wholeheartedly

Batou062671
09-09-2002, 06:52 AM
Pick one or you just look foolish and greedy. The old days of the Druid being able to do everything are long gone as you know.
Druids are split 60/40 Nuking/Healing specialized. How exactly do you expect us to get a 2/3 majority agreement on anything regarding that? :p

that's nice and all, but you forget mages can summon that bracer that boost that damage out put by 20% (1350).

And with a Focus III item a druid can nuke for 1380... Besides if you're talking about raid nuking, the druids will end up with the ring and bracer for speed/damage bonus anyway (I've certinaly never had a mage in my guild say NO when I asked for em) so you can't really count them as unavailable to druids ever.

Furthermore, you have a hole in yoru logic. In one breath you compare the ancient line of spells and then toss moonfire out of the equation for the non ancient line. 55.4% of all druids polled have moonfire. Not all of them are in uberguilds, they just bought a copy of the spell. Don't cook the numbers to support your ar[/quote]

crazytaxi SZ
09-09-2002, 08:25 AM
Tubbz
Just got my shots!
Posts: 171
(9/5/02 11:46:32 pm)
Reply Add me to the list
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wanna do DAMAGE! Not heal dammit


DAMIT ALAN, I'm a wizard not a doctor!

Lemba
09-09-2002, 08:58 AM
I don't really think we need this, but hey it would be fun. I can see a case being made for it, but there is a time when we have to ask ourselves how much do we need to become truly valued on Raids, and in exp groups. What do we need to become balanced again.

Right when Kunark first came out Druids were slightly overpowered. Especially when compared to melee classes. I don't want to return to this state. Granted, every expansion since Kunark has seen us slip further behind the other classes as they were given significant upgrades in power and the melee balancing greatly improved melee damage, but still I don't want us to be known as the greedy class that wants it all.

Renbeny
09-09-2002, 09:02 AM
I think everyone here would benefit from reading my latter contribution to the "Cleric Hammer is nerfed" thread here in General. Because obviously nobody has any idea what the hell they are or what they want.

I can't say it enough. Druids are not a nuking class. Finito. End of story. Saying that Druids are a nuking class because they have more than one nuke that scales and progresses is like saying Mages are a nuke class for the same reason. None of you would say that about Mages. So you should stop saying it about yourselves. I, as a Bard, do not ask for increased critcal AAs. You know why. Which is the lead-in for the following paragraph.

If you want to be considered a nuke class, you should sacrifice -all- the heals. Period. Get rid of 'em. Until that time, no Druid should ever have nuking capability greater than 75% of that of a wizard. It's a very, very simple equation. You say you nuke half as well as a Wizard. You say you heal half as well as a Druid. Well, then, you've got your 100% efficiency split into two places. Get rid of one or the other.

The problem here is that absolutely nobody takes the argument that you should get better nukes seriously when for every one thread containing begging for increased nuke efficiency pops up, there are four threads that ask for increased healing proficiency. The class cannot decide whether or not it wants to be a nuking class or a healing class, and there are massive divisions in both. The class, as a whole, will not be satisfied until it has improvements in both areas. -You cannot have improvements in both areas-.

I've said it before this morning, and I'll say it again now. Druids -do not need increased healing capability-. Druids -do not need increased nuking capability-. Druids need a class-only line of viable spells that is useful in grouped situations, whether experience grouping or raiding. The argument gets raised that there are only so many things that can be done, and that doing something as a class steps on another class's toes. You're not worried about that. This thread is proof you don't care whose toes you step on as long as you get what's coming to you. So stop asking for everything you -don't- need and start asking for everything you -do- need. One line of spells. One. Druid-only. That's all you need.

As a matter of fact, I'd go ahead and rip away all save 25% healing from the Druid class and improve their nukes to 75% to 85% efficiency while adding a 100% efficiency class-only utility line for raiding and grouping use. Then I'd turn and give Shamen 25% nuke/DoT efficiency with 75% healing efficiency and 100% raid efficiency. Then we turn and give wizards 100% nuke efficiency with a 50% efficient raid line, meaning it's a nice raid line, like Bard haste or something, but it's not absolutely, positively necessary to all raids.

Holy crap, look what I just did. I balanced three classes. Of course, no Druid would ever volunteer to give up 25% of his healing, and no Shaman would ever volunteer to give up 25% of his nukes/dots, even if they were getting an additional 25% in the other department, but that's another story.

All said, summary : you don't need more. You need NEW. And so what if it steps on someone's toes? Nothing gets implemented anymore that doesn't. This whole thread is jumping up and down on someone's toes.

Ehran Dyrwulf
09-09-2002, 09:16 AM
"I've said it before this morning, and I'll say it again now. Druids -do not need increased healing capability-. Druids -do not need increased nuking capability-. Druids need a class-only line of viable spells that is useful in grouped situations, whether experience grouping or raiding."


I almost agree with you.

'Druids' may not need increased healing capability but this stupid, lame assed game certainly does.

I'm sick of watching raids be held up because we can't get enough clerics online at the same time.

You want to get rid of druid heals altogether and make us a pure nuking class? @#%$, that's fine with me. As long as SOMEONE is given enough of a healing upgrade where the "end game" isn't held hostage to one particular class out of the 15(?) in the game.

Scirocco
09-09-2002, 09:19 AM
I can't say it enough. Druids are not a nuking class. Finito. End of story.


No matter how often you say it, you're still wrong.

Talyena Trueheart
09-09-2002, 09:20 AM
I can't say it enough. Druids are not a nuking class. Finito. End of story.

So, in the Norath according to you there is only one nuking class? Since we nuke much better than we heal does that mean we aren't a healing class either? Since we nuke better than we dot and are third on the dot power list (vs second on the nuking list) then we aren't a dotting class either? What exactly are we then?

Tudamorf
09-09-2002, 09:45 AM
Scirocco says: I argued for this before on the basis that if druid/wizard nuking were in balance before the AA skills got put in, then we needed SCFM to maintain the balance.

If druids get it, mages will have to get it. If mages get it, you've just increased nuking power of the primary nuke classes across the board. Across the board changes are bad, because it just means SOE will adjust the NPCs to be more powerful to compensate. All three classes will lose in that situation.

Batou062671
09-09-2002, 09:47 AM
-You cannot have improvements in both areas-
That's not for you to decide. That's for the game designers and programmers to decide.

Talyena Trueheart
09-09-2002, 10:03 AM
If druids get it, mages will have to get it. If mages get it, you've just increased nuking power of the primary nuke classes across the board. Across the board changes are bad, because it just means SOE will adjust the NPCs to be more powerful to compensate. All three classes will lose in that situation.

You could give it to all classes that can nuke and it would still only be a very small upgrade. It would be a smaller step than the removal of the healing penalty, and that hasn't drastically changed the game in any way. And that change didn't even require alt exp to get it. The making encounters easier argument is the same one people use to say druids and shaman shouldn't get better heals. The fact is though, even if a druid could nuke better, you could still replace them with a wizard who could do even more damage. As long as you don't increase the top end power then encounters still won't be made any easier than it would be with the optimal raid. It might make it easier for less than optimal raiding groups, but an optimal raiding group would still be better.

frisleafshadow
09-09-2002, 10:28 AM
SCFM please. I don't want to be a healer. I want to heal if necessary, but not as my main role. Healing has not been my main role in 20 levels.

We will never replace a cleric on raids. Any healing situation that a druid can do, a cleric and do more effeciently.


Return balance to druids. Give us another caster buff like we had w/ potc, just now potc isn't wanted by most as clerics dont stack and shammys rather the more hps & cann/topor.

A desired raid buff and better 2nd rate nukeing will return balance to Druids. As is now, we have no place on raids.

If we are healing, a cleric and sometimes even a pally does more effeciently.

If we are nukeing, a wizard does more effeciently and w/ less agro.


Please give me a reason to play my druid other then PL'ing my new monk

Tuved Stormrunner
09-09-2002, 12:28 PM
I'd love SCFM.

Quelm
09-09-2002, 12:40 PM
You say you nuke half as well as a Wizard. You say you heal half as well as a Druid. Well, then, you've got your 100% efficiency split into two places. Get rid of one or the other.

The problem with this "equation" is mana regeneration. If one nukes half as efficiently as a Wizard, and heals half as efficiently as a Cleric (?) then, at best, we're 50% as effective as either. In a split healing/nuking situation, we're providing 1/4th the nuking of a Wizard, and 1/4th the healing of a Cleric. Impressive, no?

Druids are nukers. Druids are healers. IMO the trouble is we're not as good in either role relative to other classes, as we used to be. 60% Wizard + 15% Cleric is not a particularly powerful combination. 75% Wizard + 50% Cleric was, and would be, should druids get some upgrades. Druids need some serious healing upgrades, and a tweak or two to our nuking abilities. (SCFM!)

Aidon Rufflefuzz
09-09-2002, 01:27 PM
I can't say it enough. Druids are not a nuking class. Finito. End of story. Saying that Druids are a nuking class because they have more than one nuke that scales and progresses is like saying Mages are a nuke class for the same reason.

By your definition, then, there is one nuking class...Wizards.

Sorry, but Verant is trying to step away from there being a single class for any given role.

There is no single Tank class.

There is no single melee damage class.

There is no single pull class.

There is no single healing class.

There is no single pet class.

There is no single nuke class

Windfyreskii
09-09-2002, 01:31 PM
I would like SCFM but i dont think we are going to get it. If and when the Cheal goes live, if we like it or not, we are going to be put in more of a healers/utility role. So i dont think we can tip the hand of Varent to give us this ability.

Also you right when you say there is "no single class" but there are classes that are best at abilities.

vetoafauna
09-09-2002, 01:44 PM
"Druids need a class-only line of viable spells that is useful in grouped situations, whether experience grouping or raiding. The argument gets raised that there are only so many things that can be done, and that doing something as a class steps on another class's toes. You're not worried about that."

Any new line of spells would be either one of two things: 1) unbalancing in current encounters. these encounters were forged with a certain number of debuff and buff capabilities, adding something new to the mix will upset current endgame encounters. if it doesnt do that, then 2) it useful enough to need druids along, and the problem still isn't solved. by not creating enough of an unbalance against current mobs that dont require druids to kill, then it isnt having enough of an effect to make worth casting.

the only medium between the two i can think of would be focusesque buffs. since focus items are already ingame (and mage summoned ones) it wouldnt be totally unbalancing, but for a druid to be able to buff an additional 20% to nukes or 20% casting haste, it would mean not everyone would NEED these focus items should a druid be present. while not adding anything new to the game in terms of capability, its adding strength to a whole raid that was previously only available to certain people (the lucky folks with focus items). of course, mages would probably pitch a fit.

edit: SCFM. i'm not to keen on it personally, but i wanna wait and see whats up with PoP before saying either way (really depends on our new spell line up, new level cap/aa skills)

Talyena Trueheart
09-09-2002, 02:00 PM
Any new line of spells would be either one of two things: 1) unbalancing in current encounters. these encounters were forged with a certain number of debuff and buff capabilities, adding something new to the mix will upset current endgame encounters. if it doesnt do that, then 2) it useful enough to need druids along, and the problem still isn't solved. by not creating enough of an unbalance against current mobs that dont require druids to kill, then it isnt having enough of an effect to make worth casting.

I suggested a proc buff that you can cast on other characters on the class balancing boards, but I don't think anyone liked the idea, hehe. I mostly suggested it because it would kill two birds with one stone. Warriors often times have a hard time getting good weapons with a taunt proc and often have to use inferior weapons just because they need those procs to keep aggro. It wouldn't be something that is too overpowering, it would allow a little better aggro control on raids, and for groups other effects could be on different proc spells such as slows, anti taunt effects, pure damage, self haste, snare, root, or just about any proc effect you can think up.

Windfyreskii
09-09-2002, 02:05 PM
THe only new line of spells a druid can get is one that helps with a whole new situation that comes up in Planes of Power.

To give you an example. And this is just a hypothetical situation.

YOU CANT enter this plane without this shard.
Only druids cna summon the shard.

That would not have an impact on balancing yet would make druids needed. Now of course this particular spell would never happen, but its just an example.

That is the only way a druid could get a new line of spells

Talyena Trueheart
09-09-2002, 02:12 PM
THe only new line of spells a druid can get is one that helps with a whole new situation that comes up in Planes of Power.

Why is that? SKs just got a whole new line of spells and clerics just had some serious revamping of a couple of different lines of spells that they already had. I don't see why we couldn't get a new line of spells prePoP.

Batou062671
09-09-2002, 03:34 PM
THe only new line of spells a druid can get is one that helps with a whole new situation that comes up in Planes of Power.
Nope, preist classes have to be balanced before PoP comes out I do belive. Verant stated that at one point in one of their public posts. Also, such a suggestion ONLY balances the class in regards to that expansion, not the rest of the game.

Znail vh
09-09-2002, 04:01 PM
Quote by Quelm:
------------------------------------------------------------
Druids are nukers. Druids are healers. IMO the trouble is we're not as good in either role relative to other classes, as we used to be. 60% Wizard + 15% Cleric is not a particularly powerful combination. 75% Wizard + 50% Cleric was, and would be, should druids get some upgrades. Druids need some serious healing upgrades, and a tweak or two to our nuking abilities. (SCFM!)
------------------------------------------------------------
Druids are already better then 75% of wizards, so any tweaking to achieve '75% Wizard + 50% Cleric' would have to be increasing wizards or decreasing druids.

Its far from unlikely that wizards will get a tweak in mana efficiency sometime in the future.

Its highly unlikely that Druids will get any nuking upgrades unless wizards get them too.

Arrysi
09-09-2002, 05:00 PM
Ken, spell for spell didn't mean an order of casting or whatnot during a fight. you can try to skew it all you want, but spell for spell meant what spells are given to druids and what are given to mages. most mages will have whatever summoned focus item they're goign to use already on hand. so yes, mages do have a harder nukes than druids. they're damage output overall can kill a druid in the short or long run. when we go oom, we don't have a pet to continue the damage output more times than not. in the short run, druids don't have a fast casting nuke spell to get those quick short blasts into a fight before a mob goes down.

a mage with bracer and ring can smash a druid in nuking both in time and damage.

ring = 15% faster cast time. (i.e. Chloroblast = cast time: 3 to 2.5)

bracer = 20% damage max. (scars went from 450 to 540 max damage)

so you take these two simple summoned focus items with mages get and see how much of a nuker they are compared to druids. class wise, mages > druids in nuking.

examples:

mage = 1005 damage cast time 6.8
(with focus) = 1206 damage cast time 5.8

druid = 1150 damage cast time 6.2 flat

ancient spells?

mage = 1125 damage cast time 6.0
(with focus) 1350 damage cast time 5.1

druid = 1150 damage cast time 6.2

see the picture?

another thing, say the mage is somewhat absent minded and followed the order of cast by starting with focus items before nuking. k, the druid would win the first fight in damage over time with nukes. how about the second? third? fourth? see the picture now? so yes, your argument still doesn't hold any water.

Batou062671
09-09-2002, 08:58 PM
mage = 1005 damage cast time 6.8
(with focus) = 1206 damage cast time 5.8

druid = 1150 damage cast time 6.2 flat
This totaly ignores the fact that you are compareing to druids without focus. In a raid, druids will have focus bracers too and get 1380. You also fail to take into account that druids can also get faster nukes with AA. If you're going to compare factors other than the nukes themselves, you need to take into account all factors.

Arrysi
09-09-2002, 09:12 PM
Batou, Ken and i was talking about who is the second best nukers in game. its in debate though some "strongly" feel that druids are. i don't see it that way and feel that both classes are in par with each other. this whole thing started when i said, "i didn't know it was a "fact" that we were the second best nukers in game." (or something like that). this isn't about raids, this is about class design. mages can summon their focus items and is part of their spell arsenal. druids have no such thing in their spell arsenal so its misleading to go by pure damage alone. that is what we're talking about. who is the second best nukers in game? i think mages have a slight edge while some think druids do.

with that, i'll go hug a tree now. /bye

vetoafauna
09-09-2002, 09:15 PM
where do you consider a druid that wears a permanent ID3 item then? i dunno how many people actually do, or how many have VT ID focus items, but personally i use a yelinak mask full time for the ID on it. Doesn't seem like items should necessarily determine what class is better at nuking though, it should be based strictly on the spells they have and not items (since you could say a cleric with FT15 is a better nuker than a mage with 0 FT).

Quelm
09-09-2002, 09:34 PM
"Druids are already better then 75% of wizards, so any tweaking to achieve '75% Wizard + 50% Cleric' would have to be increasing wizards or decreasing druids."

Wizards have a few significant advantages over druids in the nuking department.

1. Better ratios
2. Faster cast times and bigger nukes
3. More crits (Innate crits, SCFM)
4. Less aggro (Concussion, Spell Casting Subtlety)
5. Free nukes on equipment
6. Epic effect that is great for modding, or manaconverting (*cough* epic+manarobe=shamanwiz)

Moonfire d/m vs EER d/m is just the beginning of the comparison of nuking abilities. Any all-encompassing figure like "75%" is going to be subjective. In my opinion, their ability to do all types of damage faster, with less aggro, for less mana puts Wizards above 133% of Druid nuking abilities.

Kalinn
09-09-2002, 10:33 PM
i would LOVE scfm. im one of those bizzare druids who like to nuke as much as i like to heal.

and why should we get scfm? because druids are completely shafted and got ONE, uno, singular, yes ONE unique class aaxp. and that one is worth crap.

wizards got 4! dammit, they can afford to share. for tunares sake, other caster classes get 4-5 unique aaxp abilities they dont share with anyone, and druids get ONE.

i want scfm. i want scs. i want some unique aaxp that we dont have to share, no matter how cheesy or stupid it is. i want an aaxp that allows my outdoor only spells to work indoors (even if harmony isnt included).

i just want the damn ability to customize my character like they said we could with aaxp. there is no customization if most of the skills are so sucky that we all take the same ones out of neccessity rather than choice.

Kenny Smith
09-09-2002, 11:53 PM
I see we are goin to have to agree to disagree on this topic. But the fact that i have yet so see a mage out crit 2760 which i get on a regular basis still leans me toward the druid holding firm on the 2nd place for nookers.
Also coming from a PvP server i can tell you a mage without a pet up is gonna die or have to gate real sharp if i start chaining moonfire. And if we are in the right zone and DC is up if hes got a pet he'd still better gate ;)

Botom line here really is druids can and do have the ID3 talisman or other ID3 items and also have easy access to the mage summoned toys and anyone of those druids that has them WILL out DD a mage.

Sunfire
09-10-2002, 01:19 AM
Are druids better nukers than mages - maybe but barely...

Would druids getting better nukes or SCFM be a threat to or somehow diminish the demand/desire for wizards ... NO WAY ...

come one you could give us a 1500pt DD that cast in 5s and we still wouldnt be a threat ... 2 words why wizards have nothing to fear from druids in the nuke department ... 1) Manaburn, 2) Lures ...

we can never get close in damage and we cant even hit the mobs you actually care about ....

so er... let us have SCFM and a better lvl 60 nuke .... k... thx

PS: to the guy early in the thread who was complaining that druids can't ask to be both the 2nd best healers and 2nd best nukers ... the point is we're not the #1 anything (not even porters thats wizzies also) so yes its ok for us to be #2 in a couple areas..

Rahjeir
09-10-2002, 02:33 AM
All I have to say is, BOOM! blow stuff up! I'm on healing strike! hehe

LyphNmar
09-10-2002, 02:42 AM
>Are druids better nukers than mages - maybe but barely...

They were not meant to, Mages were meant to be #2 nuker and druid #3 in The Vision (TM).

>PS: to the guy early in the thread who was complaining that
>druids can't ask to be both the 2nd best healers and 2nd best
>nukers ... the point is we're not the #1 anything (not even
>porters thats wizzies also) so yes its ok for us to be #2 in a
>couple areas..

You are #1 in versatility, that's a fact everyone just like to ignore.

Tils
09-10-2002, 03:03 AM
"They were not meant to, Mages were meant to be #2 nuker and druid #3 in The Vision (TM)."

Where does it say that? Gimme a link :P


Anyway.. as far as I always knew..Mages were ment to be #2 in INT nukers yes...and they are. Also Druids are #1 WIS nukers.

It just happens that the #1 WIS nuker has better nukes than the #2 INT nuker but not better than the #1 INT nuker which is right.

Tils

Elawnah
09-10-2002, 03:07 AM
Don't forget... even if I can out-nuke a Mage, they still have Pet DPS to add to their overall damage output. =)

vetoafauna
09-10-2002, 03:07 AM
"They were not meant to, Mages were meant to be #2 nuker and druid #3 in The Vision (TM)."

what, did we somehow accidently sneak our way up to second best without verant noticing or something? Mage nukes are not as good as druid nukes, if you wanna contest this i'll link you to our spells from lucy but i dont think that'd be necessary.

"You are #1 in versatility, that's a fact everyone just like to ignore."

Versitality is achieved only through abilities, without said abilities we LOSE THE VERSITILITY. It's the ability to do everything proficiently that makes a class "versitile" and currently druids cannot do their intended rolls proficiently. There are no spells that add directly to some ability to be versitile, being versitile means we have abilities in different areas where spells DO directly add to (ie healing ability, nuking ability, crowd control ability, debuff ability, damage shield ability, teleport ability, etc down the line)

In losing our ability to do these things, we lose our versitality.

Elawnah
09-10-2002, 03:09 AM
Veto needs a nap. =P

vetoafauna
09-10-2002, 03:09 AM
who kept my @#%$ up all night? =P

Elawnah
09-10-2002, 03:12 AM
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o">

Har har

Znail vh
09-10-2002, 07:05 AM
Quote by Quelm: (will make comments after /*)
------------------------------------------------------------
Wizards have a few significant advantages over druids in the nuking department.

1. Better ratios
/* This advantage puts druids at 90% or better.

2. Faster cast times and bigger nukes
/* Yes, the speed advantage makes Druids about 75%.
/* The biggness advantage is mostly for show thou.

3. More crits (Innate crits, SCFM)
/* Innate crits adds an average of 0.5% damage.
/* SCFM is on the other hand the best wizard class AA.

4. Less aggro (Concussion, Spell Casting Subtlety)
/* Druids does have several skills, AA skills and spells wizards do not have ofcourse.
/* How are wizards supposed to do more damage if they had no way around aggro?

5. Free nukes on equipment
/* Same for druids, but druids also have free dots.

6. Epic effect that is great for modding, or manaconverting
/* Druids also have an epic that has a manafree effect.

(*cough* epic+manarobe=shamanwiz)
/* Yes, someone calculated this to be an awesome 7 mana/tick advantage over meditating at level 60.


Quote by Sunfire:
------------------------------------------------------------
Would druids getting better nukes or SCFM be a threat to or somehow diminish the demand/desire for wizards ... NO WAY ...
------------------------------------------------------------
So, increasing wizard damage wouldnt diminish the demand/desire for Druids then I guess?


Quote by Sunfire:
------------------------------------------------------------
come one you could give us a 1500pt DD that cast in 5s and we still wouldnt be a threat ... 2 words why wizards have nothing to fear from druids in the nuke department ... 1) Manaburn, 2) Lures ...
------------------------------------------------------------
Manaburn and Lures combined are usefull in less then 5% of the encounters out there. So what makes it so that Druids should be better damage for 95% of the game?


Quote by Tils:
------------------------------------------------------------
They were not meant to, Mages were meant to be #2 nuker and druid #3 in The Vision (TM)."

Where does it say that? Gimme a link :P
------------------------------------------------------------
Check the spells that was around when the game came out (max level 50). Actualy, mages are closer to wizards then druids back then.


Quote by Vetoafauna:
------------------------------------------------------------
It's the ability to do everything proficiently that makes a class "versitile" and currently druids cannot do their intended rolls proficiently.
------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed. But Druids do not lack in nuking ability compared to Wizards. Both classes lack somewhat compared to melees, but that doesnt mean that Druids needs nuking upgrades more then Wizards do.

On short boss mob fights so do wizards have a large advantage because of the faster damage (~133% of druids). But if fast damage isnt required, then it falls back on mana efficiency where the advantage is much less. This is noticeable for groups. If you think a Druid has a hard time getting groups then consider losing heals and buffs to get less then 10% damage increase. Wizards actualy have a similar damage advantage over evocation spec druids as they have over alteration spec druids. Wizards lose all the healing ability to get it thou.

Atermy
09-10-2002, 07:13 AM
im a druid...
i want EVERYTHING

Scirocco
09-10-2002, 07:20 AM
SCFM increases the chance for a critical by 7%. All this means is that I will be hitting my max 2530 crits closer to the same amount of time the wizards in my guild hit their 4000 damage crits.

As a druid, I'd still be doing about 1500 points less in damage than a wizard, and I won't be getting more crits than a wizard (even if you neglect the innate crits).

Hate to say it, but a wizard arguing over a druid getting the above just seems...petty.

Scirocco
09-10-2002, 07:32 AM
Would druids getting better nukes or SCFM be a threat to or somehow diminish the demand/desire for wizards ... NO WAY ...
------------------------------------------------------------
So, increasing wizard damage wouldnt diminish the demand/desire for Druids then I guess?


Considering that there is a fairly low demand/desire already, and that Wizard nuking damage is so far beyond Druid nuking damage already, I'd say that's true.

What are wizards desired for? Fast, high damage with their nukes, and an evac for emergencies, right?

Now, what would giving druids SCFM do? Well, the big damage numbers stay the same. You still do over 4000 pts with a crit, and I'm still stuck at 2530. I just crits almost as much as you do now, hence increasing my average damage over time. Would this diminish the desirability of a wizard for the needs stated above? Not at all.

Znail vh
09-10-2002, 08:02 AM
Quote by Scirocco:
------------------------------------------------------------
Hate to say it, but a wizard arguing over a druid getting the above just seems...petty.
------------------------------------------------------------
And how does it seem when a druid arguing over that a wizard gets it and they dont?


Quote by Scirocco:
------------------------------------------------------------
I just crits almost as much as you do now, hence increasing my average damage over time. Would this diminish the desirability of a wizard for the needs stated above? Not at all.
------------------------------------------------------------
There you have the reason. Wizards doesnt have a noticeable advantage in damage over time, so yes, increasing this for Druids would make Wizards less wanted. Not that the desireabilty of wizards for sustained damage (xp groups) is very high as it is.

Its nice to see that you wouldnt mind wizards getting upgrades thou.

Scirocco
09-10-2002, 08:58 AM
And how does it seem when a druid arguing over that a wizard gets it and they dont?

Fair and reasonable, of course. Remember the logic:

1. Druid and wizard nuking are in proper relative position pre-AA skills.

2. Wizards get 4 AA nuking skills, while druids get two (SCF and Quick Damage). This creates an imbalance.

3. Restoring the balance re nuking means druids should get the the missing AA skills.

Note that I AM excluding manaburn as a nuking skill. It is a special form of causing damage, and does not enhance or affect a pre-existing nuke spell, and thus not what I consider to be a AA nuke skill.


There you have the reason. Wizards doesnt have a noticeable advantage in damage over time, so yes, increasing this for Druids would make Wizards less wanted.

Prove it. Or at least argue WHY this occurs. Remember, a wizard is going to crit for 4000+, while a druid is still going to crit for only 2530, even with SCFM. And no druid is going to crit more than a wizard, even with SCFM.


Its nice to see that you wouldnt mind wizards getting upgrades thou.

Never have, never would. One of my primary rules is to never call for the nerf of another class. Also, boosting wizard nukes gives me room to push for boosting druid nukes, proportionately. Remember, I did propose percentage nukes a month or so ago for wizards, mages and druids.

Moreover, I group and raid with wizards. Anything that makes THEM stronger also helps me. Are you in a guild with druid members? Do you raid with druids? If the druids on your raid can do a bit more damage with their nukes than now, doesn't that help YOU?

The same logic applies for healing upgrades, of course.

Znail vh
09-10-2002, 09:26 AM
Quote by Scirocco:
------------------------------------------------------------
1. Druid and wizard nuking are in proper relative position pre-AA skills.
------------------------------------------------------------
If that is a question, then my answer is no. More about this later.


Quote by Scirocco:
------------------------------------------------------------
2. Wizards get 4 AA nuking skills, while druids get two (SCF and Quick Damage). This creates an imbalance.
------------------------------------------------------------
Wizards also dont have any AA skills that improves healing or buffing. Being concentrated in one area does limit what kind of skills you can get. Druids having several things they can do get less number of skills in each area compared to a class that doesnt have as many diffrent areas. Else Druids would have many more choises for skills then other classes.



Quote by Scirocco:
------------------------------------------------------------
There you have the reason. Wizards doesnt have a noticeable advantage in damage over time, so yes, increasing this for Druids would make Wizards less wanted.

Prove it. Or at least argue WHY this occurs. Remember, a wizard is going to crit for 4000+, while a druid is still going to crit for only 2530, even with SCFM. And no druid is going to crit more than a wizard, even with SCFM.
------------------------------------------------------------
Max damage has very little to do with damage over time. The most important factor is damage/mana. The best non-ancient druid nuke has a ratio of 3.6. The non-ancient wizard nuke with best ratio has a ratio of 4.0 (this spell also have the disadvantage of 13 seconds recast time). I personaly dont consider 10% to be a huge diffrence. And there is deffinitly not alot of room for any large improvements for druids without improving wizards.

Oldoaktree
09-10-2002, 09:45 AM
It is a false comparison to not figure in the benefits of SCFM to the ratios.

No matter how you slice it wizards will be doing dramatically more dmg than druids over time if both had SCFM. Assuming for the moment that both crit at the same rate, that extra 1500ish in dmg wizards are doing when the crit will have a tremendous impact on the dmg over time figures. Sorry I don't follow your logic at all.

Scirocco
09-10-2002, 09:51 AM
1. Druid and wizard nuking are in proper relative position pre-AA skills.
------------------------------------------------------------
If that is a question, then my answer is no. More about this later


Then there's nothing left to discuss, really. We'll just have to disagree on the fundamental starting premise, and leave it at that.

However, for the benefit of everyone reading, I do have to point out the foolishness of relying on damage/mana ratio as the "most important factor," as claimed.

Consider a druid nuke that does 20 points of damage for 1 mana, and can be cast once per minute. That's a 20:1 ratio! So is THIS hypothetical druid nuke 5 times better than the best non-ancient wizard nuke with a ratio of 4.0? Of course not. Anyone claiming so would be foolish. It doesn't have enough damage/cast or DPS.

The two most important factors for a nuke are damage/cast and damage done over time (measured as DPS or however else you care to do so). That's where we get the "75%" relative power estimate from (let's just use 75% for argument's sake, now). This assumes that damage/mana ratios for the two classes are roughly the same.

Now, the druid damage/mana ratio is approximately 90% of the wizard damage/mana ratio (let's say). This doesn't mean that druid nuking is 90% of wizard nuking (anymore than the above hypothetical spell would mean that druid nuking was 500% of wizard nuking). What it does is further REDUCE the relative power estimate even further.

90% of 75% is 67.5%.

So, damage/mana ratio is not the starting point for druid/wizard nuking comparisons. It is a modifier to the relative power estimate established by comparing damage/cast and DPS.

To be fair, all three factors are cumulative. Damage/mana ratio thus WOULD be the primary factor ONLY IF the damage/cast and DPS figures for the druid and wizard nukes were similar.

So, any analysis has to look at: damage/cast, damage/time, and damage/mana. Other factors to be considered are: resistance rates, mana regen/pools, and aggro control.

Is there any dispute that wizards are far superior to druids in damage/cast and damage/time? And that wizards have an edge in damage/mana ratios AND aggro control that only drops druids down further, comparatively speaking? I'll consider any differences in resistance rates and mana regen/pools to be negligible at this point.

Znail vh
09-10-2002, 10:10 AM
Quote by Oldoaktree:
------------------------------------------------------------
It is a false comparison to not figure in the benefits of SCFM to the ratios.
------------------------------------------------------------
My post was about how good the spells by themself are. And if both classes gets SCFM, then that is what counts.
Not that it matters, but a wizard doesnt get SFCM for free when he gets 60. So there are plenty without it.


Quote by Oldoaktree:
------------------------------------------------------------
No matter how you slice it wizards will be doing dramatically more dmg than druids over time if both had SCFM.
------------------------------------------------------------
Are 10% dramaticly more for you? I guess you are happy for the dramatic upgrade to heal spells you got with the removal of the 10% penalty.


Quote by Oldoaktree:
------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming for the moment that both crit at the same rate, that extra 1500ish in dmg wizards are doing when the crit will have a tremendous impact on the dmg over time figures.
------------------------------------------------------------
Both will get the same % bonus to damage. It wont change their relative power.

Oldoaktree
09-10-2002, 10:21 AM
Are the wizard innate crits not additive to this as well?

And yes I understand that percentages are constant but as has been thoroughly beaten apart in previous threads on these issues you can't simply look at the numbers on a % basis (and yes I know that druids often post em that way too).

A lot of this is about the "real world" (for want of a better term) effective dmg done during the course of a raid or a target kill.

DPS matters. Total dmg per nuke/crit matters. Take a 10 min fight as an example. To keep life simple lets assume both the druid and wizard have complete access to mod rods or infinite mana (ie neither will run out). Also assume they are nuking for the entire 10 minutes and have super special mod rods that don't take any time to use (sorry trying to keep my life simple for the calcs).

Say a wizard nukes for an average of 2280 every 5 seconds. The druid will nuke for an average of 1311 every 7 seconds or so. During the 10 minutes, the wizard will do 274,000dmg and the druid will do about 112,000dmg.

Granted this example is artificial (since mana pool does indeed matter). I did not look up the casting time and delay on the wizzie 2k nukes (but know wizzie nukes are faster than druids). I think I am even overestimating how quickly druids can nuke.

If you took the time and made the numbers real the effect would be the same. Wizzies lay out a lot more smack in a fight of a fixed duration than druids do...even with both getting SCFM.

EDIT: Adjusted my figures. I think SCFM makes for 14% chance of crit? I had originally done 10%. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I also did not figure in wizard innate crit.

Scirocco
09-10-2002, 10:40 AM
SCF 3 = 7%
SCFM 3 = 14% (includes the 7% from SCF 3)

Chakkolio
09-10-2002, 12:54 PM
HTML Comments are not allowed

Chakkolio
09-10-2002, 12:58 PM
Apparently a collection of words and numbers (usually called paragraphs) translates into HTML comments are not allowed. Go figure, haha. Have a nice day.

Znail vh
09-10-2002, 01:25 PM
Oldoaktree, yes, wizards do significantly more damage during fixed (short) duration fights then druids. This is where the quicker damage of wizard shines. This is the reason why wizards are popular for raids.Althou some raids has longer fights as well.

During longer fights (high end boss mobs) or killing several mobs in a row (xp groups) so are mana ratio generaly the limit.
Althou most high end raids have a happy modrod vendor to resuply mana from.

Sunfire
09-10-2002, 02:37 PM
Znail I don't think many/any druids would begrudge wizards getting nuke upgrades...

For druids its a matter of having a degree of nuking ability that's useful enough to make it fun for us in the higher end game. SCFM would help and wouldnt take away from wizards desirability IMHO - alternately a better druid nuke or two could fill that role also... better meaning better damage/mana or lower resist (honestly this might be the most useful).

I want to hit one point you made that hasnt been addressed:
/*Manaburn and Lures combined are usefull in less then 5% of the encounters out there. So what makes it so that Druids should be better damage for 95% of the game?
*/

Usefull in less than 5% of the total encounters out there maybe, but I'd say useful bordering on necessary for >30-50% of the raid level encounters definitely.

I'm not going to even touch Manaburn except to say a group of manaburn wizards can kill just about any epic quest mob and half the dragons in WW some of which 20 druids couldnt take.

But lures ... come on, you can't say that lures are only useful in 5% of high end raids... check out the following table on Graffees (awesome table BTW) and tell me that again:
www.graffe.com/library/mo...stance.htm (http://www.graffe.com/library/mob_resistance.htm)

Gremi007
09-10-2002, 03:21 PM
I don't see the cause to moan after SCFM, that 60% of druids mentioned that considered themselves primary nukers are most likely the 5 druids who die 10 seconds into every big mob trying to KS. Many here say we need to be closer to wizards, but I'm siding with them on this balance issue as we are supposed to play behind mages, and with the advent of moonfire we even surpass their DPS on most raids/inside groups (yes pets add a lot but thats their niche..).

From what I read, most of you should rethink your class and make a wizard, saying our heals are useless is pushing it. Though NT is an awful mana/hp ratio, my first skills were healing gift3 and I manage to successfully keep all of my support groups alive while at the same time doing approx. 5500hp worth of damage a fight without gaining aggro and still having a high chance of gaining xp for group. With 1/10 of my heals going into critical for 2k I am able to keep eye on clerics/support melee while wizards who's primary job is to nuke(I do believe thats all they have, don't say concussion is a class bonus). Toward lower ends of fight I have just enough power to land enough damage to add my support to that role in fight added to my average 9k in dots per high hp mob. If I did not have heals or dots I would see the point in getting SCFM, but until then I see druids as balanced enough class not to need it(though I believe our heals are seriously underpowered at the moment, 2hp per mana is just not usefull anymore)

Thats just my thoughts, I just don't think how you druids such as sirrocco, who I am not pointing a finger at(I forgot all the other names :) ), play politician word twisting games with wizards words.. it just isn't balancing to give us that kind of critical power.

Scirocco
09-10-2002, 03:24 PM
...as we are supposed to play behind mages...


Proof, please. I've seen this said before and I'm still waiting.

Gremi007
09-10-2002, 03:26 PM
proof is until sol mages kept a higher dps with nukes, and I know I was pissed when my mage fell behind my druid on nuke dps on raids with the advent of moonfire. Mabey its not verants intention but its how it 'was'. You guys are druid supremisist I swear :(

Oldoaktree
09-10-2002, 03:36 PM
Mages dps has not ever been higher via nukes has it?

I don't cry for mages over dps though...everyone who posts that always leaves out the f'ing pet...it makes a BIG difference in dmg output and no, you can't pretend it doesn't exist because sometimes you don't get to use it.

I do pity mages the mod rod job though. Would be far better for them as a class if they could summon 30 charge mod rods at higher cost and just pass them out before the fight...let them go back to nuking and pets like they are designed to do instead of playing vending machine.

But no, I don't have much sympathy about their nuking power relative to druids. I will trade em booboo for their pet if they want to trade nukes...anytime.

Aren't wizards behind mages already, and druids behind wizards? If you do it right and include the pet that is...

Znail vh
09-10-2002, 03:37 PM
Quote by Sunfire:
------------------------------------------------------------
But lures ... come on, you can't say that lures are only useful in 5% of high end raids... check out the following table on Graffees (awesome table BTW) and tell me that again:
------------------------------------------------------------
Checked the chart. There was 4 encounters totaly where lures would make a large diffrence. There was 16 more mobs where is would be better to use a lure over a normal nuke. Do you think 20 mobs is more then 5% of the diffrent raid level mobs around in all the expansions? Notice that this includes diffrent mobs on planes and not only boss mobs as resistant versions of those are also included on this list. Remember that this list is mostly made up of the mobs that actualy are resistant in some way, and those that arent are left out.
On those 20 mobs in the game so can a Druid still do some good with some heals. A Wizard that cant land nukes are pretty useless.


Quote by Sunfire:
------------------------------------------------------------
SCFM would help and wouldnt take away from wizards desirability IMHO - alternately a better druid nuke or two could fill that role also... better meaning better damage/mana or lower resist
------------------------------------------------------------
Reread my earlier notes why this isnt practical without wizard upgrades. Even a small upgrade like 5% would half the damage/mana advantage of wizards.


Quote by Sunfire:
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not going to even touch Manaburn except to say a group of manaburn wizards can kill just about any epic quest mob and half the dragons in WW some of which 20 druids couldnt take.
------------------------------------------------------------
A shaman on my server has soloed half the dragons in WW. 2 Druids with equal equipment could probobly duo the same ones. Old mobs are easy to kill with or without manaburn. 20 level 50 druids with cloth armor would have a difficult time thou.

Oldoaktree
09-10-2002, 03:41 PM
A shaman on my server has soloed half the dragons in WW. 2 Druids with equal equipment could probobly duo the same ones. Old mobs are easy to kill with or without manaburn. 20 level 50 druids with cloth armor would have a difficult time thou.


EXTREMELY unlikely.


Druids don't solo summoning mobs well at all. Unlike a shaman, we can't slow it. That means when we get summoned, we are probably gonna die. The fight goes:

Druid 1 casts snare
Druid 2 casts dot 1

Druid 1 casts dot 1
Druid 2 starts to cast dot 2 but gets summoned

Druid 1 begins to cast dot 2
Druid 2 is trying to heal but is getting munched.

Druid 2 dies

Druid 1 is summoned

Druid 1 dies shortly thereafter

Mob is at 70% health with some dots wearing off

Now maybe with a charmed pet the agro can be controlled...there is probably a way...but no, they can't do "half the dragons in ww".

Druid soloing is vastly overstated by non druids...we do well with non summoning mobs, and we struggle hard with those that do summon.

Znail vh
09-10-2002, 04:00 PM
Oldoaktree, I said that it required equal equipment as said shaman. I am not sure there are two such druids on the same server :)
So its not easy to prove either way.

Well, most of the non-dispelling ones could be killed fairly easily with 2 charmed pets.

But something to remember about summoning is that it does have a reset time. So a well equiped person will not die, can move out of melee range, and even cast some spell before getting summoned again. There are wizards who have soloed summoning mobs using that tactic.

And being two people means that one person is not currently getting munched at and are free to heal or deal.

Scirocco
09-10-2002, 04:05 PM
Even a small upgrade like 5% would half the damage/mana advantage of wizards.


I've already shot down the damage/mana argument. Regardless of its minor effect on damage/mana, its effect on the TRUE advantage of wizards (to which you understandably wish to close your eyes) is even less.

Oldoaktree
09-10-2002, 04:22 PM
Shamans with equivalent gear to mine have done very many things solo that I would not attempt with another druid.

Soloing emperor in Seb for instance. Not bloodly likely. As well as a number of those WW dragons.

Shamans are solo machines...it takes more than 2 druids to do what one shaman can do.

With a non dispeller and charmed pets, you are probably right about some of the lower level WW dragons....but druid charm is pretty unreliable (having two pets there would sure help).

Znail vh
09-10-2002, 04:24 PM
Dire charm is very reliable I think.

Oldoaktree
09-10-2002, 04:26 PM
Level limits restrict most WW mobs as I understand it. Dire Charm caps at 48...most of those animals are above that I think.


Moot for me in any case since DC is a skill that only works well in about 2 zones for druids and so is not a priority for me at this point. There are more important skills in arch that will help me in a raid capacity and the toy of DC is way down my list.

vetoafauna
09-10-2002, 04:29 PM
dire charm is dispellable, also the cap was 46 to my understanding but either way it doesnt matter, the number of zones with mid 40's animals is very limited

Oldoaktree
09-10-2002, 04:30 PM
Yah just went looking for the level limit and was gonna correct it realized 48 didn't sound right. Looks like 2 elephants in 6 might be DC'able, but it is kind of dicey. About 1 rhino in 6 would be, and none of the wolves. Not a worthwhile use of so many AAXP to perform tricks.

All of this is pretty far off topic though.

Still haven't seen anything to suggest to me that Scirocco is wrong. SCFM for druids would be agood thing and wizards still would remain far ahead. THere might be a handful of exceptions where it worked differently but they would be few.

Znail vh
09-10-2002, 04:48 PM
I know Direcharm is dispellable. And the zone we was talking about does have suitable animals. So it would be useable against non-dispelling dragons in WW. And ofcourse its just a trick and not a very good use considering the AA points it takes. As if anyone would bother about gimp dragons one or two expansions old? :)

Anyway, no need to continue to drail this thread more then it is, unless someone finds this is important?

Sunfire
09-10-2002, 05:29 PM
Gremi - we're not "druid supremacists" or whatever term you used, the point is there are 3 ways to "balance" druids on the high end:

1) Far better heals - which is what you'd obviously prefer, some druids want this its the general 'balance us against clerics' argument

2) Far better nukes - hey based on an old eqdruids poll almost 50% of druids are specced in evocation and the other approach would be to improve druid nuking ability

3) A combination of marginally better nuking and healing - making us acceptable stop-gaps for either the missing cleric or the ld wizard - this is actually what I'd prefer..

What I'm trying to do is argue for 3 - my lifelong dream isnt to be a gimped cleric and I believe the kind of healing we need for (1) would really kinda step on their toes. I wouldnt mind (2) and actually I dont think it would step on wizzies toes as much as (1) steps on clerics but I appreciate Znail's points many of which are well made. I think a slightly better heal - either IN-CH which can be modded by our AAs or just a better ratio NT type heal AND a slightly improved nuke (and the point of this thread is to figure out whether that would take the form of giving us SCFM, just a better mana ratio high-dmg nuke, or maybe another class of nuke such as disease or poison based).

Side comment #1: Earlier someone commented that the only thing druids were #1 at was "versatility" - I see (3) as the high end balance for this role.

Side comment #2: I play with a mage frequently and he always outdamages me - this who's 2nd best nuker argument has entirely neglected **Maelstrom of Electricity** which does a total of 2025 damage unmodded and works far better than the druid rains which cap at Blizzard (54) and aren't nearly as effective since we dont have a pet that holds the mob under the rain.

Gremi007
09-10-2002, 05:48 PM
I can't see a point in using maelstorm in a raid situation, or most groups.. or anything involving high number pulls. Ya mages do more with those pets but they should have higher mana dps, I say this because yes they outdamage us, but we trade that bit of dps for our versatility.

Theres a difference between being undbalanced and having room to add a boon to the class without underpowering others. I think the CH which is a 1.5HPS for same mana would be a fine upgrade, because currently we fall so behind on heals that its impossible to stay on top of mana during raids/groups. But if we are going to move into giving druids a AA ability for catchup, I'd say we would make better use with subtlety than more crits. May be the only druid who argues against upgrades, but I play this game cause I think its kept pretty even steven, and I think adding extra damage or more nukes for us would just be something for druids to say 'NEW TOY' for.

Also from what I've read on this board(the whole day that i have known it was existant..nobody filled me in back when beta started :p ) it is hard to argue with someone who won't change their mind, and I think the majority of people here, myself included, are in the same rank.. as I read through these post I see lots of stuff from o'reilly factor 'I'm not buying it so god knows your wrong'. Thats why I said supremisist, as the majority of what I read are complaints about our upgrades not being enough and our good stuff not being good.

Aidon: Dooooooood. We said 30k, not 300k. :p Sig is neat and all but I felt the disturbance in the force of 1000's of people all trying to DL your sig and groaning in pain

-Forgot I had my guild sig on :p the rat tis leet though-

Arrysi
09-10-2002, 05:56 PM
isn't mana storm a magic based rain spell that is even more worthless than scirocco in most situations? rain criticals...weee, that's dps for ya. (unless they took out the rain criticals...sigh)

Scirocco
09-11-2002, 04:26 AM
Oh, I'll change my mind, when presented with facts or analyses that cause me to do so.

Nor am I seeking supremacy. Equality will do.

Tils
09-11-2002, 04:30 AM
holy fug Gremi your sig is 359k :P

Tils

Silverblade the Enchanter
09-11-2002, 04:34 AM
There are 3 high level mage rains:
Sirocco, 630hp per rain fire based.
Manastorm, 675 magic based BUT also has 30 mana drain per wave adding another set of resist checks so it SUCKS for resists.
Maelstrom of Electricity (lvl 60) 675 hp same damage as Manastorm but less resists.


Rains have to be used in specific settings, on 2 to 4 targets they can really rock. However normally their resists suck HUGE, mob really needs tashed, Ro's, Malosinied.
Most mages are Conjuration specialists, all the rains are Evocation.


Redorious
Archmage
Karana