View Full Forums : Druid CH on test (at least according to Lucy)


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Nalilya
08-20-2002, 08:29 PM
Check out this link, third spell from the bottom. There is also one on the next page for shaman.

lucy.fnord.net/newspells.html?source=Test&date=2002-08-21%2005:05:17&page=1 (http://lucy.fnord.net/newspells.html?source=Test&date=2002-08-21%2005:05:17&page=1)

Of course it doesn't mean it will go live, or go live in its current form.

Also looks like they undid the change to wizard lure spells and made them resistant again.


Nalilya
60 Druid

Fayne Dethe
08-20-2002, 08:38 PM
How is this a 75% heal as listed by Lucy if the max it can do is 3k?? 75% of a tank's fully buffed hitpoints is more around 5k.

SunnieEQ
08-20-2002, 08:57 PM
They capped it at 3k. /shrug At level 54, that's still really nice. Same cost as NT, but up to 3k hps, or 75% of the targets hps. Think I'd have to level my druid up if that goes live. =P

Jentriken Aspenbark
08-20-2002, 08:58 PM
it's just a hard coded limit as to not let us become too powerful. a 3khp heal is still friggin awesome.

Tudamorf
08-20-2002, 09:02 PM
LOL, the shaman one is listed as having 1950 max. Even though they hard coded a message into the spell data file saying it's just a test, "Don't panic", I'd love to see all the whining on the shaman forums once they get wind of this. <img src=http://lag9.com/biggrin.gif>

Seriously though, if this goes live, the druid class will go from "powerful and versatile" to "godly".

tetrian corbec
08-20-2002, 09:05 PM
Ok, Clerics are gonna have a fit over these spells =)

I really hope they think really good about the shaman version of the spell, they already do have 75% slow, and a CH, even a lesser version, could give them even more power/imbalance with canabalize than there already is.

Anyways, the shaman version from lucy :)

Changed 'Cast on you' message from "You Squirm!" to "This spell is a test spell and may not go live!"
08-21 05:05 Changed 'Cast on other' message from " Squirms!." to "The ratio and stats on this spell may change! Don't Panic!"
08-21 05:05 Changed Slot 1 from "Unknown #147 (100/50/1000)" to "Increase Hitpoints by 75% (1950 max)"
08-21 05:05 Changed Classes from None to SHM/54
08-21 05:05 Changed Mana cost from 60 to 400
08-21 05:05 Changed Name from Large Test to CH Test - Shaman
08-21 05:05 Changed Fizzle Adj from 25 to 0
08-21 05:05 Changed Casting Time from 3.0 seconds to 10.0 seconds
08-13 00:05 Initial Entry



-edit, forgot a word =X

Fayne Dethe
08-20-2002, 09:08 PM
I think they either need to lower the cast time or up the max amount of possible heal. And if this is going to be considered a druid "CH" then will it have same limitations of not working with any focus items?? If it works with all focus items, then I am less concerned about the max amount of the heal. Oh yeah, they might want to raise the level of the spell to higher level so clerics wont freak out as much.

And the reason some arent ecstatic is that it really isnt a 75% or even a 50% heal for tanks on a raid along with a 10 second cast time. However, as I said if the heal works with all focus items and AA skills then I think it may not be as much of an issue.

I dunno how well this will work on a raid situation, guess thats why it is on test server right now to see if it really makes much of a difference.

Shayariel
08-20-2002, 09:08 PM
I cannot understand what some Druids have to ramble now!! That is exaclty, if not better, what most of you agreed to, some said, give us a

- 2400hp:400mana heal (6:1), you got a 2925hp:400mana (7,31:1)
- 50% heal, you got a 75% heal (with a cap though)

Even though this is just on test, it is VERY nice that VI tests what you all suggested to them. Imagine this goes life...
a 3k heal for xp group, not balancing? a 7:1 heal on raids, not balancing?

I tell you, this is all I wanted for the Druid class, now I can choose from whoever comes first for xp groups, Cleric OR Druid, as they can for the tank spot - that is all I, at least I, ever wanted.
Now I just need to calculate how many HPs I acn get with PotG and my level 60 Paladin buffs - oh my god, and I must buy peridots for the groups now /BLECH nerfnerfnerf :p JK

Shayariel Arrowkeeper
Crusader of Tunare
MithMarr

edit: P.S.: WOW, and now I even can go to lesser raids like PoH and such even if not one Cleric shows up, yes I can, all I need will be a few Druids and a Paladin/Necromancer for Rezzes.

P.P.S.: For the Clerics that read here and want to start ranting over this raiding point: This was also the case for the tank spot earlier and now you can grab a knight as well for many raids - doing this for priests as well is only just and fair...

Role Meggido
08-20-2002, 09:23 PM
First, I'd say not to go over the top on this. Someone is at least doing some testing on healing, and I don't think we can do anything but appreciate that.

Healing changes will probably happen, but how exactly is probably tentative at this point.

The 75 % heal (assuming it is of total hp) is imo relatively close to exactly what people have asked for.

I would say it is probably best to just look and see what happens.

ccLothar
08-20-2002, 09:25 PM
Hmmmm
Hmmmm
Hmmmm

A lot to think about here. Glad this is on test and not live yet. Do I want to be more like a Cleric, or more like a Wizard?

Hmmmm
Hmmmm
Hmmmm

On the side Meteor Storm looked cool. Would be nice to get an upgrade to Wake of Karana ...tho Meteor Storm probably isn't it.

These changes are fun.

Cassea
08-20-2002, 09:26 PM
Current Numbers:

CH Test - Druid Detail

Increase Hitpoints by 75% (2925 max)

Mana: 400 Skill: Alteration
Casting Time: 10 Recast Time: 0
Fizzle Time: 2.5 Resist: Unresistable
Range: 100 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Target Type: All
Spell Type: Beneficial Source: Test 08/21


Classes: DRU/54
Duration: Instant


Cast on you: This spell is a test spell and may not go live!
Cast on other: Someone The ratio and stats on this spell may change! Don't Panic!

Cassea
08-20-2002, 09:29 PM
Considering that we currently have a 1k heal fro 400 mana a 3k heal for the same mana is wonderfull!

Let's take the high road here and "help" Verant and not bitch and moan about a really nice gift that will, along with the other changes, make Druids into a real class once again at the high end.

Thanks Verant!

I know it may not go live but the fact that you are even testing this sure is sweet!

Talyena Trueheart
08-20-2002, 09:53 PM
It is really a relief they are taking a serious look at healing. They have done pretty well so far looking at issues druids have brought up, but most of the changes were relatively minor and many affected more classes than just druids. Don't get me wrong, they have been positive changes, but nothing that really did much to balance anything.

As for this heal, it is better than I expected, but I have some reservations about it the way it looks like it would work. I think it should either have the maximum cap raised a bit (a 5000 hp cap would make it an actual 75% heal on all but the pretty high end tanks), or they should remove the percentage part and leave it as a 3kish heal with the same stats otherwise as CH. Of course, this looks like the first test of the spell so it is unlikely to make in into the game exactly as is.

All in all, great job guys. Nice to see some real heal testing going on.


Hmmm, what is that taste in my mouth? Kinda a sweet taste. Hey, where is the bitter taste I am used to having after druid spells get changed? ;)

Kolen SL
08-20-2002, 10:01 PM
I agree with Cassea here. If this gets through, it's a pretty major healing upgrade. More than I certainly expected. That's a pretty big if though :)

On raids this will be a "caster cheal" I think :p Druids become useful to babysit people rodding (not a wonderfully fun role, but realistically I don't think many people have a "fun" role on raids).

One think I'm curious is if it will heal to 75% or heal a max of 75% of total hp.

In terms of cleric vs druid healing on this... Clerics will still be needed for tanks. Cleric CH is still better than this. Aego and/or symbol is still wanted for buffs. 96% res are still wanted for raids (duh). To be blunt that's more of a unique raid role than many classes still have. XP balance is another issue, see below...

I am puzzled by the level they put this at though. Lvl 54 is pretty low. I'd seriously expect this at 60, when XP group balance is, perhaps less of an issue than prior. (I don't know about other 60 druids, but I'd guesstimate I spend 80-90% of online time raiding or porting for raids). Also at 54 the hp limit is not really an issue, making this an only slightly less efficient CH.

As they say though, this is all still being tested, so we'll see :)

-Kolen

Tudamorf
08-20-2002, 10:15 PM
Why was this thread moved to Class Balance? Many people will miss it here, and it has little to do with class balance.

Bria Sunrider
08-20-2002, 10:40 PM
Clerics get CH at a very early age, I think the level is fine. Starting it then gives a little time to work with the timing and get the feel of it before you start facing the high end encounters. (For those not already there of course.)

I'm so happy that they are testing and working on priest balancing. As a matter of fact I've been very happy about a lot of changes of late. I'm looking forward to seeing what will come to the live servers.

Thank you very much guys if you are reading here. The new changes are most welcome and appreciated :) .

Rainus7
08-20-2002, 10:47 PM
3k cap is kinda of low imo ...


You might think that 3k upgrade greater than our current 1k heal ...

but 10 sec cast time ...

if persay it becomes a 3k heal .. in 5 secs .. that might be more in line with our general roles as spot healers *though might be way too powerful*

as it is .. I can foresee an uproar from clerics in that we are encroaching their sacred place in xp groups

It's a good thing though .. making priest cast inter replaceable *though at a slightly lower efficiency*
54 might be a tad low for a spell of such power *thinks that verant really did shoot themselves in the foot for giving Cheal at such a low level to Clerics*

just my personal thoughts

Miss Foxfyre
08-20-2002, 11:23 PM
I don't know who moved it, but as it is part of their priest balance move, I'm assuming that's why it ended up here. Sobe opened this section for posts of this type. /bonk

tetrian corbec
08-20-2002, 11:24 PM
If they made it much faster cast it would be way too powerfull, the main advantage to a heal like this is the mana to hitpoints ratio, not speed - though a second or two off wouldnt be too bad :)

Tils
08-20-2002, 11:38 PM
Crit that and your going to do a nice 6k heal = 1 highish end warrior

Plus increased !0% heals / focus items....youd be doing just under 7k heal if you crit.

hmm....druid rotations. Not sure if i want to be a rotation druid.....BUT it will make us wanted in the high end gameplay alot more.

Clerics will probably be a little miffed though....I hope they get something aswell which the want to lighten it up a bit.

Tils

Darjeeling
08-21-2002, 12:18 AM
I'd love to see all the whining on the shaman forums once they get wind of this.

Heh look no further than your own backyard, Tud:

I really hope they think really good about the shaman version of the spell, they already do have 75% slow, and a CH, even a lesser version, could give them even more power/imbalance with canabalize than there already is.

And the reason some arent ecstatic is that it really isnt a 75% or even a 50% heal for tanks on a raid along with a 10 second cast time.

Would be nice to get an upgrade to Wake of Karana

As for this heal, it is better than I expected, but I have some reservations about it the way it looks like it would work.

3k cap is kinda of low imo

Too funny...

Gwynet Woodsister
08-21-2002, 12:41 AM
Hmm 2950hp heal at 54.


WTF are they smoking? Sorry, but at 60 I could think about it but 54 is totally stupid IMO.

Hobbo
08-21-2002, 12:55 AM
If this heal goes live it's beyond anything I could have hoped for. This heal is 3X better than what we got now... with this I think I can pretty much keep up with any healing task on a raid except MT ch rotation.

And yes I agree in a XP group at lvl 54 this is pretty much complete heal.

Mikar
08-21-2002, 01:03 AM
If AA and focus items have an effect on this spell I think its too good.

HA3 = +10% healed
IH3 = +7.5% healed (guessed)
HG3 = crit 10% of the time for 2x healed

MP3 = 5.5% reduction in cost
spec200 = 11% reduction in cost
scm3 = 10% reduction in cost

spell haste = 15% faster casting

This would make it a 3488 hp for 294 mana in 8.5 sec + whatever value you want to assign to crit heals.

Thats almost 12:1 hp/mana - or too close to CH in most cases for my liking - in particular as it would heal faster than CH.

If this spell is exluded from getting better with *any* focus items (except range) I would still consider it too good - if further neither HA nor HG had an effect I would consider it balanced (but not having the AA skills effect it would be stupid I admit).

Firren
08-21-2002, 01:30 AM
If AA and focus items have an effect on this spell I think its too good.


I didnt think focus items affected clerics CH cast time, why should it effect this one ?

You're also talking about a shed load of aa points and decent equipment, at lvl 54 you'll most likely have nothing to aid you.

Firren

BobolinkWareagle
08-21-2002, 02:12 AM
I think 54 is a fine level for this spell. Also, I don't think shammys should be too upset, they gain enough aggro by slowing.

I might finally be rewarded for being spec alt. If this goes live I say kudos to Verant!

Lith Ahntalon
08-21-2002, 02:37 AM
I will be honest with y'all, when I first heard this I went off like a pack of firecrackers. This is a major upgrade for my fellow preists in terms of viability in raids and outside raids, should it go live. I would honestly expect upgrades for clerics of a similar equivalency (sp?) in terms of damage output and utility. In a game where damage output and utility has gained an edge on healing it is the right thing to do to increase these things for clerics.


Short Answer: Hooray for y'all if it goes live but, lets keep things real and balance the other third of the priests as well and it is the latter I have my doubts about when concenring VI.

Qhue
08-21-2002, 02:43 AM
The spell needs to be capped at 75% of the max hits so that is ISNT a complete heal since clerics have, and should have, that as a special ability.

It only heals 2925 max because once again the REALLY big 6000+ hp heals are for clerics and its the main thing other than rezzes that they bring to a raid/group.

That having been said it does allow for druids and shaman to have a very efficient if slow casting heal that makes clerics less required and more of an option just like everyone else.

Its not a fast heal and should NOT have a casting time lower than the full 10 seconds. The main drawback to a CHeal is that it takes forever to cast. You already have the fast casting spot-heals, you dont need anymore of those.

This allows a raid to proceed even when they dont have XX number of clerics to fill up a Cheal chain. MOST Complete Heals land for far less than max hits on a raid. In fact on some mobs nearly all CHs land for < 2000 hits!

These new spells would allow for the creation of a 6-man Cheal rotation that interweaves Clerics with Shaman and Druids so that the Druids and Shaman heals can keep the tank alive while the Cleric Cheals bring him back up to full.

This gets Clerics out of being stuck with Cheal-chain or Rez/rebuff and lets them do more things on a raid while still letting you at least HAVE a raid when not as many clerics log on.

I think these spells are an excellent compromise.

Smartypus
08-21-2002, 02:46 AM
/clap I hope this goes live. It might persuade some Druids to go back to Alteration. :D

Gilu FreeWind
08-21-2002, 02:52 AM
Complete Healing = Increase Hitpoints by 10000

Now on interpretation :
CH Test Druid = Increase Hitpoints by 2925

which makes :
CH Test Druid = Complete Healing * 29.25%
CH Test < Complete Healing * 30%


On CH Test, we can read :
Increase Hitpoints by 75%
And as far as they consider that 2925 HP Cap healing, that would mean they consider a regular "Tank" with :
HP Healed = 2925
HP Healed = HP Tank * 75%
HP Tank = HP Healed / 75%
HP Tank = 3900 HPs

I guess they take an average of HP on "Tanking" abled classes.


So far, i know some people who would actually read that :
CH Test = Complete Heal * 75%
what is, of course, completly false.

Just numbers and rumors hearing :p

Prodigious
08-21-2002, 03:07 AM
this will be a great thing for EQ. you might not be able to heal AOW with druids, but you could do stuff like dain, zlandicar, rhags, statue, many ntov dragons, va`wimp, and more without *needing* those - no offense - damn clerics. it's the bane of raiding that you absolutely need X clerics or the raid isn't happening. this might change now :)

imo, the 3k hp heal is maybe just a tad overpowered, but lets see. the shaman ch is fair because they have insane mana regen and torpor.

Keryia Winterwolf
08-21-2002, 03:11 AM
I don't mind the cap of 75% it makes sense and is a balancing move. Combine that with our other heals and we'll be able to keep a MT alive pretty easy. If it actually healed to full regardless about the hp to be healed it would be too close to a cleric heal.

Can't ask for a better spell for druids for healing :)

Keryia

Gilu FreeWind
08-21-2002, 03:16 AM
Anyone got any idea where they reach that number : 2925 ?

i don't.

Probably 2925 seems overpowering druids, but in figures, 2925 is just a down rating.

What is your Warriors HPs in your guild, w/o buffs, with raid equipment ?

For Novae, Average warrior HPs ~ 4560 HPs

3900 < 4560

Seriena
08-21-2002, 03:17 AM
I wouldn't have this spell be available at 54. 55 at the earliest but it's probably more suited to 57+.

Great to hear we might get something like this though at all...especially when so many wanted to convince us that druid healing was capped and the petition was a waste of time.

/cheer

Miss Foxfyre
08-21-2002, 03:18 AM
I'm sorry, but any arguments you make about druids becoming "godly," Tudamorf, should be applied to shamans as well IF these 3k and 2k spells go live. Shamans are incredibly powerful already and godly to some, while druids have not been considered overpowered for some time (if someone thinks they are, then they've been living under a rock for the last two years).

Thund SS
08-21-2002, 03:22 AM
Overall I like this spell but I agree that something needs to be given to the clerics if this goes live. I would suggest making their undead only nukes about as powerful as moonfire with lower resists. That way against undead mobs (AL, etc) it might be more logical to do a druid CH chain with clerics nuking.

the occasional role reversal is fun.

le freez
08-21-2002, 03:24 AM
if it goes live its great
for my part i dont think this spell need to work with focus item/aaskill we are not cleric and the spell is enough good like that

and i dont want to be a cleric
cleric is a boring to hell (heal ;) class to play (ch, count 3s, ch, - target slowed-, count 7s, ch ...)

i just hope for them VI will not forget cleric in the class balance


edit : lvl 54 is too low, i see it more like a 58-60 spell

Vumni
08-21-2002, 03:25 AM
As a cleric let me say i'm VERY happy for you to get this spell :)

Now if they'd just do SOMETHING ok ANYTHING to the clerics, so we can port, and invis we'll be happy.

Enjoy your new found bot key.

Miss Foxfyre
08-21-2002, 03:27 AM
There's a lot one could do to clerics to make them more rounded. :p

Sherazade
08-21-2002, 03:29 AM
/agree Vumni :)

Butor
08-21-2002, 03:30 AM
I would love to see this spell go live, and I don't feel the numbers need to be twinked, except maybe the spell level : 54 seems a bit early. Even if I'm quite sure clerics have nothing to fear in mid 50's exp group, people at those levels are still very attached to getting rezzes (with good reasons).

People that think druid raid role can be balanced without affecting other play styles (grouping, soloing,...) are bound to be very disapointed. I think it's just plain impossible.

75% capped at 3k will never infringe on the cleric role on raids.

If that spell goes live, if the dot stacking stuff and the non snaring epic goes too, I'm considering myself a balanced druid. Hoo mmm well I could use the cold debuff thing too.

Aaeamdar
08-21-2002, 03:33 AM
Well, the direction is right. % based heal is what is needed so we won't slowly fall out of balance over time as new expansions push HP and Mob damage ever higher. I don't like the cap, since it runs counter the the reasons for having a % based heal in the first place. They need to remove the cap and just figure out at what percentage or level they want Druid's healing today. E.g., Today 3k is about a 50% heal on a raid tank. If that is what they want, gank the cap and put the percentage at 50%.

Scirocco
08-21-2002, 03:34 AM
The only that gives me concern is that I might be expected to heal now...:)

This is a lot better than most of us had expected or asked for. Except, perhaps, for the very small (but vocal) percentage that wanted CH for real. That isn't going to happen.

I would have no problem with the shaman and druid versions of this being the same.

Tudamorf, this topic is exactly what this forum was created for. It's the main part of the "priest balancing." Just look at the other healing threads here.

Gaash2002
08-21-2002, 03:34 AM
Ok first let me start off by saying the following post is not an attempt to troll, this is my honest opinion.

Am I the only one who thinks that's a stupid idea? I'm very happy with our current state of healing abilities and I think this 75% Druid CH is going a bit overboard.

Gift3 + Adept3 + 10% Healing penalty removal + Improved Healing Focus Item = Good enough.

Sure not every Druid has maxed out healing AA's, but they're available if that's what's important to you. Druids are not supposed to be Clerics. Our jack-of-all-trades role is what we do best. I think we're just fine as healers in a pinch. I think I'm one of the few Druids happy with the class as it stands now.

I hope this doesn't go live.

Cassea
08-21-2002, 03:35 AM
Why was this thread moved to Class Balance? Many people will miss it here, and it has little to do with class balance.


I moved it here. If this is not part of Druid balancing then I do not know what is :)

People will find it. Those that care about balancing check this section anyway.

SilleyEskimo
08-21-2002, 03:40 AM
Holy @#%$!

If this goes live, I'll have to make alot of room on the happy druid bench! Come on over you bitter druids, you know you want too ;)

I also wanted to add that I didn't like this thread getting moved here either. Just my 2cp, but it's kinda silly seeing as it's such an important topic. It should most definately be on the main page.

Fairweather Pure

Miss Foxfyre
08-21-2002, 03:44 AM
Gift3 + Adept3 + 10% Healing penalty removal + Improved Healing Focus Item = Good enough.

No.


Sure not every Druid has maxed out healing AA's, but they're available if that's what's important to you. Druids are not supposed to be Clerics. Our jack-of-all-trades role is what we do best. I think we're just fine as healers in a pinch. I think I'm one of the few Druids happy with the class as it stands now.

My first hurl of the day, and it's so early. :(

Druids aren't supposed to BE clerics, but druids are supposed to be a healer. Or maybe the definition of "priest" should just be forgotten and there should be only one priest class!

I'm glad you're happy with the class as it now, so if you get healing upgrades, then don't buy the spells or just shove them into the back of your spellbook where you won't be tempted to go.

Gaash2002
08-21-2002, 03:50 AM
Of course I'll buy the spell if this goes live, I just don't think a Druid 75% (2925) healing spell is necessary. :)

SilleyEskimo
08-21-2002, 03:50 AM
"Am I the only one who thinks that's a stupid idea?"

Short answer-- Yes.

Long answer---Yes.

Hey, I'm a happy druid too, and loathed by many for being that way. However, this makes me go from "just able to get by" to an actual "I can be main healer" role. Plus! No more having to wait on clerics for the smaller MoBs like Vindi, Velk, Kunark Dragons, ect. This makes our versitile class even more versitile.

Fairweather Pure

Gilu FreeWind
08-21-2002, 03:59 AM
lol Gaash ;)

Arsdenyl
08-21-2002, 04:03 AM
This will be an incredible upgrade for smaller guilds, along the lines of Manaburn. Where before a guild might not try a big mob like a Rumblecrush because they don't have enough clerics to have a CH rotation, this will let them. (Afterall druids breed like bunnies ;) ) Sure its not a COMPLETE heal but rarely in a CH rotation does the MT get that low in heal (lag permitting) to need 10000 HPs at a pop.

I think a little adjusting might be need as far as level. 54 seems low to me. Just an opinion /shrug.

greggo rumbletum
08-21-2002, 04:04 AM
54 is too low.

Kinare
08-21-2002, 04:08 AM
I like this change, don't get me wrong, but I am waiting to see if this goes live before I get all excited. I am also wanting to know what clerics are going to be getting to offset this. Admittedly if this does go live, clerics will be put in the back for exp groups (depending on how the spell works. Does it heal 75% total or 75% hurt HP?).

My cleric though.... I don't think she likes this change very much :) What is she going to get to put her back on top?

SilleyEskimo
08-21-2002, 04:13 AM
I posted this on my guild board just now. Should this go live,
the fact that we have more druids than any other class means that this would have a large impact on the entire guild.
I assume there will be tweeks and changes here and there befor this goes live, but the fact that they are impelementing some form of high end heal makes me very happy indeed.

I am actually excited as to how cleric versitility will get addressed. VI has done a superb job with us druids so far. I certianly hope the clerics end up as happy with thier results.

Fairweather Pure

Miss Foxfyre
08-21-2002, 04:15 AM
75% but not over 2950

Ack, now you guys are confusing me.

Mikar
08-21-2002, 04:20 AM
I didnt think focus items affected clerics CH cast time, why should it effect this one ?

You're also talking about a shed load of aa points and decent equipment, at lvl 54 you'll most likely have nothing to aid you.

Firren


I specifically posted what I did to maybe help ensure that the new heal gets excluded from focus items - as I dont know yet that this is the case. But, lets just assume thats the case as we seem to agree it should be. If so I only think the druid heal is a little too good - but acceptable.

As for Level 54

First, my personal concern isnt the sub-60 game - but rather the 60 w/30+ aa game as thats what I play.

But, that aside - at level 54 the tanks are also extremely unlikely to have more than 4k buffed - so the cap isnt an issue. The druid heal will hence heal to full any time the tank isnt below 75% yet - so the only difference is when the heal lands at a point when the tank is down more than 25%. I submit that this isnt exactly something that happens on most CHs - and that that those CHs that do land for more than 75% dont land for 99% either.

So, at level 54 the druid heal is easily more than 75% of the cleric CH - I would probably rate it as 90% as good on anyone with less than 4k hp - dropping down in comperative value as tanks get more hp.

So, at the end game I think the heal is acceptable assuming focus items dont work with it. At anything below the end game I think its too good - specifically at level 54 I think its about 90% as good as CH. Finally, it might not be enough come PoP - unless they finally stop giving tanks more HP (+100/+125 hp items in all slots + ND3 are as much to blame as CH for the current problem).

Spyder001
08-21-2002, 04:23 AM
54 isnt too low. 39 is too low (clerics).

Katria
08-21-2002, 04:27 AM
"Am I the only one who thinks that's a stupid idea?"

Short answer-- No.
Long answer---No.

I mean honestly, this is a druid board. What person playing a druid is going to object to getting more useful spells? I wouldn't expect any. But seriously, where do you guys all draw the line at? You've got your full DOT damage nerf taken away, you've got the healing nerf taken away, you can port, you can evac, you can sow, you can forage, you can track, you can dot, you can nuke, you can buff, you can invis, you can levitate, you can breath underwater, you get a pet, you can solo better than pretty much any other class.. and you can do all of the above very well. What else do you seriously need? Next we'll be reading that druids are getting clarity.

Oh wait, I'm sorry. You already have something like that.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
08-21-2002, 04:31 AM
Why was this thread moved to Class Balance? Many people will miss it here, and it has little to do with class balance.

Because it has everything to do with class balance?

Perhaps the Bitterness will end up Victorious in the end after all =)

Seriena
08-21-2002, 04:34 AM
Katria, please see this <a href=http://eq.crgaming.com/creationguides/Druid.asp> Druid Creation Guide</a> and make sure to name your druid something "earthy" like Treelover, Runningwind or something of the like.

Take care and thanks for stopping by!

Grolmn
08-21-2002, 04:35 AM
I would really be surprised to see this go live. On the other hand I am very happy that VI is taking a good look at healing.

I think to offset this addition if it went live for druids, that VI would in turn add some versatility to clerics. Hard to say, but I think they listen more now that the Vision TM is dead.

kahlus
08-21-2002, 04:37 AM
My thoughts, cross-posted to cleric forums:

I think the problem here is people failing to see two very different things.

*Yes, this heal was needed for raids where the clerics are all doing CH rotations and the druids are struggling to keep rampage tanks alive. The benefit of this spell is that the druid has a place in the end game again, and can contribute significantly rather than just prolong the inevitable death of any tank without a cleric behind them.

*No, this heal was NOT needed for xp groups. The drawback is obviously that the cleric role in xp groups is going to suffer here. I want to see VI's changes to clerics to compensate them for the loss in xp groups.


Speaking as someone who has a 60 epic druid and a 60 epic cleric and is in a VT guild, I am both pleased and displeased with the change. Raidwise, it makes perfect sense, and our clerics are still going to be the cornerstone of our raiding force. But Verant cannot let this kind of change go live without addressing some of the issues of the cleric class as well.

I'd like to see clerics:
*Get the ability to port to other temples. Maybe have something similar to the firepots located in each of the temples - this would still require a faithstone to get to your home temple before porting to one of the others.

*Increase the range and duration on Epitath of Life. Love that it stacks with Turning of the Unnatural, but you have to practically stand in melee range to stick the stupid thing, and then recast it like 30 secs later, all while clicking your weapon to land Dawnfire every 30 secs as well.

*Slow or Snare Undead type spell. 50% slow or something of that nature seems pretty appropriate, and does not infringe upon the other slowing classes anymore than the "Druid CH" infringes upon our CH abilities. This would especially be nice for clerics in the upper 40s/lower 50s fighting in lguk who would have to compete with the new "ghetto ch" druids and shamans.

(Edit: Forgot to add that the level for the ghetto CH is way too early. I grew up as a druid back when SH was the uber heal and was level 53. This spells needs to be level 60, and move NT down to 5:cool:

Kahlia Girlie
High Priest, Nightbane
Karana

ShadowfrostXev
08-21-2002, 04:37 AM
Haha, I'm a cleric and I don't think that it's a stupid idea. Why on earth do you think it's stupid ?

This is for the benefit of everyone. The limiting factor on most high end raids is the number of clerics, and if druids and shammies can band together and help substitute for clerics, then I imagine that most raiding guilds will be delighted.

Most XP groups will find it easier to fill the healer slot. Less LFG time and more XP time for everyone.

Speaking as someone who's been casting CH for a LONG time, I think I should point out to you leather-wearing types that this spell is going to draw a lot of aggro. And most druids don't have the AC to deal with the consequences of casting it... If you're going for the healer slot in XP groups, give thought to dropping some Wis and getting some more AC and HP. :)

Of course, speaking as a cleric, I'm looking forward to receiving snare at 75% of druidic ability, invis (but not improved or group invis), SoW, a magic resist debuff to match the druid fire debuff, versions of haste and slow to 50% of the shammy abilities, a revised epic quest where Ragefire's a triggered 8-hour spawn like Faydedar, a new range of undead DoT's at 75% of druidic efficiency and a huge fat undead nuke with a mana/damage ratio to make a wizard drool. So I can afford to be happy for you !

Miss Foxfyre
08-21-2002, 04:41 AM
I mean honestly, this is a druid board. What person playing a druid is going to object to getting more useful spells? I wouldn't expect any.
Some already have objected within reason. But the worst kind of druid is a self-loather and class-hater, which we don't have here, thankfully. If you're looking for them, they are hanging out on Graffe's all the time being traitors and taking potshots at their own class.


But seriously, where do you guys all draw the line at? You've got your full DOT damage nerf taken away, you've got the healing nerf taken away, you can port, you can evac, you can sow, you can forage, you can track, you can dot, you can nuke, you can buff, you can invis, you can levitate, you can breath underwater, you get a pet, you can solo better than pretty much any other class.. and you can do all of the above very well.
We can't solo better than shamans or necros, really. Not with their better mana regain. By the way, those old nerfs you listed are frickin' antiquated stupidities that were added when the EQ Live team of yore couldn't decide what to do except nerf. And how dare you enter Booboo into the equation? It's not a real pet by any means.

But seriously, just because we have those utility spells doesn't mean clerics shouldn't get some for CRYING OUT LOUD the millionth time. Druids have never been opposed to clerics becoming better rounded.


What else do you seriously need? Next we'll be reading that druids are getting clarity.

Oh wait, I'm sorry. You already have something like that.
That was introduced long ago, so even bringing it up is kind of lame. Clerics also get a mana regen buff spell -- teehee -- and let's not forget that for a long time druids get no mana regen except for Form of the Howler.

LilWolf
08-21-2002, 04:52 AM
People have been saying... it should be 54...

why?

You loose the ability to heal effectively in your mid 40's.

I think it's a perfect time.

but why only one spell?

how about 50% at 44 with a max at 2k
then 75% at 54 with a max at 4k

or something similar.

The idea is that some people LOVE to heal. They play healing druids. The spend 50 days to find out that they can't really do it anymore. Why not fill in some gaps.

Adon Borealis
08-21-2002, 04:59 AM
Hi druids :)

Let me say that I am very happy about this change for you guys, and even more so for us clerics since 1) pressure relief on raids 2) must get versatility in compensation!

I shudder to think what encounters in POP might be though with more CHtype spells going in the game though!!!

Fear the quadding/flurrying for 3000hp a pop mobs where you have to have several CH/quasi CH chains going at once to survive.

What do you druids think is good compensation for clerics?

75% slow?

75% snare?

75% teleports?

75% magic debuff/fire debuff?

75% invis?

75% SoW?

75% DoTs?

75% haste?

75% pets?

Obviously some combination of the above would be good. Probably undead only versions or to temple only or some such stuff.

Just wondering what you guys think.

Adon
Venerable High Priest of Tunare and Rodcet Nife

BobolinkWareagle
08-21-2002, 05:01 AM
I agree LilWolf. I was a pretty effective healer for a long time. I never really played with clerics much until I hit my 40s. I had to get used to the way they healed, letting the MT get down to 40% before casting, where as I usually tried to keep my MT at 80-100%.

A 50% heal at 44 would rock, and I still think the 75% spell should stay at 54.

Tils
08-21-2002, 05:02 AM
So whats stopping VI from moving our 2k heal off level 60 to 54 and then having this 3k heal at 60? Seems a logicial upgrade (yes I know its far slower). But it gives a mid level druid some healing power but not a 3k heal which should be able to pretty close to CH tanks at that level.

Time on the heal 10 secs...well I would be able to live with that I guess. What Im personally looking for is this spell to basically mean that 2 druid = 1 cleric in healing power. If it does this then Im happy and I hope clerics would still be wanted / needed in raids.

Whats important is the balance is right ...you want to raid..you need 5 clerics in order to successfully do this raid. At the moment you have the options

1) Dont Raid because you cant get enough clerics and maybe 35 other people cant do zip all night
2) Raid because you get the clerics
3) 2nd Box a cleric to make up the number
4) Play someone elses character instead of your own in order to be able to raid.


Now if they get this balance right what should happen is this.

Only have 3 clerics. However 4 druids are also online. Druid healing is half as good as clerics so you need double the numbers.

This means that it could be harder to succed in the raid because theres more healing / possible mistakes. BUT what it does mean is those 35 people CAN raid and dont have to wait all night for a cleric to log on.

I truely think clerics always should be needed to do better raids however I do not think they should be a full requirement of a raid in order for people to be able to raid.

A 10 sec healing will almost not benefit a druid for soloing. However in group / raid situations it will make them more "wanted" because they can go back to this possibly backup healing role which we lose at level 60.

Again this healing wont help a druid other than raid / group situations so who benfits from this? Probably everyone....other than maybe clerics. But dont ask me what the solution is...and no I laugh when I see clerics say they want ports...I really hope your joking. Maybe you should get a 75% duriation of Levi / Sow or something which you seem to want...and some undead stuff.

Tils

P.S. Sorry about the long post ;P

Glynna1
08-21-2002, 05:03 AM
OMG Please say it is so. I'll be happy with a 3k heal. :)

marthisdil
08-21-2002, 05:04 AM
I tell you, this is all I wanted for the Druid class, now I can choose from whoever comes first for xp groups, Cleric OR Druid, as they can for the tank spot - that is all I, at least I, ever wanted.That's already happening now - and a major source of the Cleric complaints. They have a very difficult time soloing, and aren't "needed" in 98% of the exp camps out there because Shammies and Druids heal just fine in those groups as it is.

I'm not saying these are bad upgrades for Druids and Shammies, but I pray to god the do something to help the desirability of clerics in groups - otherwise, we'll be seeing a mass exodus of raid-level clerics because they're not happy...Nobody wins then :(

Marth

Trevize
08-21-2002, 05:05 AM
hmmm

Our warriors are 7k+ hit points. That's not a 75% heal.

It's still a very good heal tho. 10 seconds tho.. for 3k HP? hmmm that's a bit on the long side. 7-8 seconds I think would be more in line maybe even 6.
My thoughts on why:

For a 3k heal (or 2800 whatever) that would typically be casted on anybody except a warrior. It would also only be casted when they are very low on health. If they are very low on health and you start casting a 10 second long heal.... they'll be dead before you heal them. So if you're trying to save them you'd have to cast Chloro to get them to a "safetly" health type status, but then they would probably be close to 75% health anyway and then this heal would have 0 effect.

Also how is Verant doing the math here.

1 - does it take the target's total HP*75% then cap at 3k and heal for that much on the target reguardless of how much HP they have? or

2 - does it take the target's total HP*75% camp at 3k and then only heal the target if they are below 75% health and then stop healing at 75%?

Also do AA skills have a play on this heal? Can we crit it?

I dunno guys. I know a lot of discussions and a lot of people have been saying "give druids a 75% heal". But at 10 seconds for a cast time, I'm having a hard time seeing how it will be usefull during raids. Unless as you say, all we'll do with it is heal people who are mana rodding..... As usefull as that sounds it is just meh.. blah.


[signature file size out of control]

NallowinDawnfeather
08-21-2002, 05:08 AM
Ok kinda confused.

Lv 54 is too low is claimed by some.
2925 hp is too low by others.

What if later at lv 60 there is a true 75% heal with a 7.5k cap. Who knows, but lets not start arguments over something that is on test.

Just a thought, I love the fact that Verant is open to ideas and willing to work on things.

~Nallowin

Falamil Woodhelven
08-21-2002, 05:09 AM
Sign me up as a druid coming out of retirement if this goes live.

Seriously, two druids and a bit of coordination and you have another cleric for the CH chain. This would be a very, very large help for lower tiered guilds.


Now how do I raise my bard's HPs high enough to make effective use of this heal? =)

Nerma
08-21-2002, 05:13 AM
I have to say that I am excited by the possiblity of being able to help a raid healing so that it can happen or continue when the clerics don't show or get too sleepy. Honestly the power that single class holds in the raiding department is too much for anyones good.

Level 54 seems fine to me. All those making calculations on what the would mean with AA this and Item that should try to remember that most of those awesome AA's and Items won't be available to a level 54 druid. AND it wouldn't hurt to have a few levels to get used to the spell.

Let's not also forget the agro we will generate by casting the spell. Are we equiped as a leather wearing class to handle that? I hope the adjust for that in the spell itself. I realy don't want my DCH to be a one cast death cast spell.

Clerics- I hope you get your *realistic* wishes too. I think they added faithstones and so forth to help you at least get out of the bind at the zone problem. And do forget that most people don't even need ports these days. And with POP druid ports will be almost completely unnecessary.

I cheer any change that makes a class more wanted, especially one that has long since been demoted to "nearly useless" except for rounding up people.

Europa

Sorrun
08-21-2002, 05:14 AM
Wow.. alot more then I expected to see and I am arguably the most optimistic of the bunch around here... very nice upgrade.

I only hope clerics get well compensated, versatility wise... shaman are pretty powerful as it is and druids will regain alot of ground but clerics will be left in the dust.

If it doesnt make it live at least we know Verant is willing to stretch the envelope and truely go where none of us expected they would go... that is refreshing.

54 though? Seems a bit low although >58 seems to high... either way who am I to argue being 3 yellows or so from 54... :)

Miss Foxfyre
08-21-2002, 05:16 AM
LilWolf's post:

<blockquote>If you ask the cleric community if they could loose / share one ability what would it be? CH?

I think they would say Ressurect myself. Why? Clerics can suck to play... but more and more... your life becomes could you run 3 zones and res me please?

Ress's are not essential to the game and create HUGE downtime that people get pissed off with. Why not give Ressing to another class to allow clerics to actually group more?

CH? Well, another need to seperate... Not for clerics themselfs, but more to allow more diverse group combinations (that don't involve running or rooting).

This is my thought. Seperate the healing of Shammans and Druids. Give one to one and the other to the other.

btw, I'm not talking the full versions of each. maybe give a xp res that puts a desease on that makes healing slow down for 5 minutes or something. Some disadvantage over the Clerics... but keeping the xp.

Druids get res would be the most benificial to the game (but sucks for us a little). We would keep to our tools label and be able to move around helping people. Imagine how convient for others it will be to get a xp res from someone who can teleport.

Shammans get CH.

but this might be too powerful.. (can't make it to easy can we).

shammans get xp Res (to lighten the load for clerics) but they can't TP. Shammans already have something to do in raids and xp groups... so trying to slow and ch might give them to much agro.

druids get CH.

Just an idea

btw, before any clerics get pissy... Warriors gave up their skills to Rangers/Pallys/Rogues/SK/Bards.... Wizards gave up smaller versions of their skills to Mages and Druids..... The idea is to keep you the best healer, but make it so you can have others, just not as effective thats all.</blockquote>

Ganlaan Stormwind
08-21-2002, 05:17 AM
hehe I am glad now that i recently changed my spec to Alteration :) . And really.....I do not think clerics will mind this too much on raids. If a druid gets some Imp Healing 3 items and there AA skills in the right place. They might be a viable candidate for a CH chain? One of the clerics responded to this on our guild forums as saying it should be a welcomed spell by clerics, now they might be able to come out of the CH chain and just be a group healer on raids.

I was not expecting something like this to happen, if it does go live. But hey....I'm not complaining. The lvl 54 might be a little low...I would have expected it a little closer to 60. I think this should be a welcomed addition by players. Even though if this does happen, druids now have better healing than Shammy's. I don't really see a problem with that. Shammy's have other roles to fill on raids.

Zephaus
08-21-2002, 05:24 AM
Clerics got Faithstones so they can port to their home cities without us druids =) So there's your compensation. The Druid CH is just paying us back for some lost business hehehe.

Zep

Aaeamdar
08-21-2002, 05:26 AM
Personally, I try not think of it in terms of compensation. But here is what I think, generally.

Druids in the end game have always had a hard time finding a role on raids. Our main role has always been healing non-MT, but we have never been able to do that effectively. This heal will change that. It will also allow guilds with lots of Druids and not lots of Clerics to adjust to a psuedo CH rotation involving 2 Druid/Shammy replacing one Cleric, or more reasonably, since the ratio does not need to be that bad, just go with much faster rotations on when teh Druid/Shammy part hits.

Grouping. I remember Level 30 and below, when my healing was as almost as good as a Clerics, my nuking was almost as good as a Wizard, my buffing was better than a Cleric (HP buffs almost as good, but then I had regen and DS). At those levels, there are few reasons (apart from being friends) to have a Cleric. I am most concerned that this spell will have a similar effect on Clerics at 60 in xp groups, though I could be wrong, as a 60 Cleric offers more different things than a 60 Druid when compared to a 30 Druid and a 30 Cleric. That said, I think what needs to happen, is that Clerics need something else other than healoing to offer a group if Druid (and more importantly Shaman) healing gets too close to Cleric healing.

I think that a focus on adding more undead stuff to Clerics is the wrong approach. Druids have anti-summoning DDs and stuff to effect animals. These all range from useless to mostly toys. Certainly, undead are more prevelant than animals and summoned, but if I were a cleric I would not be looking for improvements to versatility that were limited by the target.

Giving Clerics a wider variety of heling does nto help either, as this new heal (and a Clerics own CH) would make most of those obsolete upon creation.

Haste and Slow are both reasonable options. Maybe something along Shammy Haste (or a little worse) and Chanter Slow (or a little worse). I like the idea of spreading these critical abilities across more classes.

Pets. Pets are trouble for classes that have great buffs and great healing. I would not look to go this route.

The other stuff you list are all kind of /blah abilities. They are not generally a reason to invite someone to a group, which is the key thing that should be looked at, since Cleric CH chains will always be the cornerstone of raids.

That said, Invis. IMO, the more people that can cast invis the better. SoW is a non-issue. SoE is nice. SoW is something that is at the back of my spellbook. You might think you want it, but if you have Run3, you will find that you would not bother meming it and casting it in most cases anyway.

Anyway, I would be looking for either: 1. some new group friendly ability or 2. a high priority group ability (Mez, Slow, Haste) currently possessed by another class or a couple classes that Clerics could take a reduced effectiveness. Other than Slow and Haste, your list did not really have it.

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 05:31 AM
What do you druids think is good compensation for clerics?

First off, if you compensate one class for every change another class gets, then it isn't balancing. Take a scale (you know, the ones with a tray on each side) and drop a dime on one side. Now drop a penny on each side at the same time until it is balanced and tell me how much money you now have. But, if you are speaking of them making clerics more well rounded, I think it is a good idea. Next, you seem to be stuck on 75%. If you look at the proposed heals, they aren't really 75% heals. 75% is just a restriction placed on the heal. I couldn't heal myself for a full 75% with that heal and full raid buffs.

75% slow? no way. The best shaman slow is 75% and there is no way clerics should get that. They would then have the two most powerful spells in the game.
75% snare? How about a full undead snare. That would be completely inline with the whole cleric vs undead thing and help out cleric soloing.
75% ports? If you mean porting others, you are welcome to it, but I don't think it would be very in line with clerics. Plus, you would get even more gamewide res requests. If you are speaking of self only, you will have at least that good when PoP comes out.
75% debuffs? Sure, why not. Not sure why you would want them though. Everyone else would have better and it would be a spell you would almost never use.
75% invis? Sure, make every mob you run by invis have a 75% chance of seeing you? Of courese, you already do have a percentage of invis since a good percentage of the mobs in game are undead and you can invis against those. I wouldn't mind seeing clerics get a self only invis though.
75% sow? You have that available now and even better if you have the cash.
75% dots? You already have undead dots that have a very good dps but less mana efficiency.
75% haste? That is better than shaman have. I don't think haste fits at all with what clerics do though.
75% pets? Hehe, you already have better (as far as the druid pet). I wouldn't be against a cleric undead charm though. That would be quite interesting.

How about a cleric ae vs undead spell? With an undead snare, you could see clerics out quad kiting the undead. Then clerics would be as overpowered as druids since they could solo well. :)

Nimphe Wildwood
08-21-2002, 05:32 AM
If it truely does come about, I'll be one happy Druid!

I'll feel sorry for those Druids who don't know how/what the heal spell is...

Batou062671
08-21-2002, 05:36 AM
None of us are really sure what the cap on the heal means. For all we know it could just some number fed into an internal calculation like they have been known to do in the past. I think the real information will come when a druid who plays on test actualy gets the spell and sees what it does.

Adon Borealis
08-21-2002, 05:48 AM
*sigh*

I didn't mean literally 75% of those spells, I meant "dummy" versions of the spells that shamans and druids get, like gate/teleport to home temple only, snare/slow undead only, debuff undead only, invis self only, levitate self only, haste self only, etc :)

Sorry I wasn't more clear. Speaking to druids, I should know better!

Adon

NightGod
08-21-2002, 05:49 AM
Just for the record, cleric here.

I'm glad druids are getting this spell...and I hope they up the limit (7500 max sounds reasonable since it is supposed to be a 75% CHeal and CHeal tops at 10000). I'm honestly guessing they may have put in the 3K limit because they are still tweaking the 75% code thing and want to get a feel for how the spell goes over on Test without having to worry about a possible bug there.

Druids will have more to do on raids, clerics will have less pressure to log on/go to a raid. I see it as win/win, especially in the end game. Though I can see some possible issues with exp grouping...well, that's why I have friends to group with.

Now I really hope VI decides to blanace things out a bit on the cleric side by improving our ability to solo undead. Not going to get into details of exactly what I'm looking for, just going to say I truly hope VI's version of cleric balancing is going to extend beyond lowering the mana cost on our "uber hammer"...

Seriena
08-21-2002, 05:51 AM
Sorry I wasn't more clear. Speaking to druids, I should know better!

*rolls eyes*

If you want to come here, discuss something and be taken seriously, leave the God complex at the door and get your point across without insults.

Thanks :)

aanmezz
08-21-2002, 05:54 AM
We can't solo better than shamans or necros, really. Not with their better mana regain.

This is the core of almost every argument raised by druids, "Someone else can do X thing better than us" but always misses the point that no class can do more things, even bards.

Yes, a necro or shaman can solo slightly more efficiently or in more zones. So what? Does this limit your ability to solo effectively? Nope. Now consider that soloing to 54 is a cake walk for druids (root cook glacier yeti in DL and you can go from 44-51 in a weekend) and you arrive at 54 as a far more viable exp grind priest than a cleric because you can effectively heal the MA and can PORT everyone to the appointed grind. So now the road to 60 is far simpler for druids than ever before and it wasn't all that hard to begin with.

It won't happen overnight, but I assure you that cleric populations will dwindle and druid populations will rise and outside of VT/Ssra/NToV/etc, druids will be quickly adopted as the preferred healing class of the game. But even if that happens, I bet cannibalize/lich, manaburn, modrod2, aego, pets and slow will still give you reasons to gripe about the druid lot in Norrath life. And it won't surprise me in the least to see druids get some, if not most of those listed abilities before EQ2 comes out and saves us from that scary world of wood elf/assling domination.

Aan

AladainAF
08-21-2002, 05:56 AM
75% manaburn coming up next (with a cap of 4000dmg)

Mikar
08-21-2002, 05:57 AM
Raidwise

I am thrilled druids get this - I positively hated the total *need* for umpteen clerics on raids. Major thumbs up.

Exp wise

Clerics were already in trouble exp wise as we offer so little apart from CH - and CH was only really need in few places. This new druid spell will make this even worse for clerics.

So, I think clerics need something pretty good for exping thats inconsequencial for raids. Then both druids and clerics can perform well on raids AND during exping (like shaman already do imo).

As to what it should be - thats harder to say - and probably better debated on the cleric board.

Trakkur
08-21-2002, 06:01 AM
I'm a cleric and think that it is great, but those druids better have gate memed, hehe...CH gets quite an aggro.....Hope a fragile druid can take the hits, lol

Peyotie
08-21-2002, 06:04 AM
I readily agree with the clerics here. I'm GLAD we are getting looked at. I do seriously hope VI throws a bone to clerics with xp'ing. Lets face it druids have NO problems whatsoever with xp'ing. If we can't find a group in Seb we port to whereever and look some more, if we look and can't find a group we can solo in alot of places. Clerics do NOT have those options.

Keep up the good work VI and I hope this goes live. Finally have a chance to be able to be a healer in a small group vs constantly being oom trying to keep 2 people alive.

Accretion
08-21-2002, 06:05 AM
Wow. Once again I'm completely at a loss... How many of us actually thought we'd even get consideration for a 3k heal???

/cheer Verant

At any rate, I agree with the Clerics posting here that there should be added versatility of some type for their class. Invis, slow undead, added ports (my personal favorite -- means a lot less work for us) all would be viable options, IMO.

HOWEVER

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that WE raised the SAME concerns when OUR class abilities had been diluted (Run3, SoW/DS Pots, Faithstones/Nexus, Wiz/Clr nuking, Pally healing, procs, melee improvements, etc.) and were met with countless "shut up, Druids are plenty powerful as it is so quit your whining" responses.

How many of us have returned that favor in this thread?

Please remember that.

http://sun.he.net/~justin1/eq/sig1.jpg
Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=202599)

Sobe Silvertree
08-21-2002, 06:07 AM
<h5>***********************************************</h5>So far we have figured out:

1. 75% (not > 2925) Heal.
2. Evocation Druids still do not like to heal.
3. Uber Druids (OMG that's not 75% of 8000 hps our Warriors have).
4. Level 54 + The Learning Curve is a good place to start.
5. Tuma doesn't believe this is Class Balance (/bonk).
6. Question of the Day.. Does AA Skills/Focus items Effect this Spell?
7. Smartypus believes we should all be Alteration and doesn't understand no class even comes close to a 60 Wizard in Damage in the Caster's Dept.
8. The Name of the SPELL WILL BE CHANGED.. (Cabbage anyone?)

For those that do not understand the Druid Class.

- Druids are split half/half Evocation and Alteration hense some of the "disagreements about healing upgrades".
- Uber Druids know that 2925 is around 1/3 of a heal (33%) for todays Tank (shoot our bard is around 7200 buffed and Rogue's are closing in).

What do I think?
The spell from what I can understand is a marriage between Divine Light/Nature's Touch and the now named Druid CH, it clearly says; this is designed so that NT for Druids is still a usable spell; (NT is still around and crits for 2k+), and that DL is still usable by Clerics.

I am an Evocation Druid, though if I was going to ask for any change I would say:

ONLY IF: AA or Focus did not effect the spell: I believe 5% added per level to the MAX HP's healed: 2925...(additional 30% once 60 is hit) from level 54, this would probably resolve the Uber Druid concerns of tanks with 7500 - 8k Hps.

ONLY If the spell is effected by AA/Focus, I would only request an addition 10% AA in CLASS AA's. But who knows what is going to happen in PoP.


Evocation Druids have 1150 Moonfire and some Ubers: (Rare case) have Ancient Starfire of Ro: 1175/better mana ratio and shorter recast, a slight increase but still nothing even close to Wizard Power, but slightly better then a Mage Best Nuke not overall damage (DPS), as it should be: pet is uber and mod rods own.

Both Alt and Evo Druids have DoT Stacking, DoTs as you know are Conjuration so they are mana intensive for both Versions of Druids.

As most Druids understand for the passed 3 years of upgrades
Alteration and Evocation sides have been clearly the focus that VI has push forward in upgrading. The Problem is that most people look at the Druid Class as a whole and forget that Specialization ( Hey you can Nuke, but I am an Alt Druid, Hey you can Heal, but I am an Evo Druid ) plays an important factor in the role of the Druids line of spells.

(Raiding)
- IE: If your an Alt Druid, Evocation spells are huge mana.
- IE: If your an Evo Druid, (from experience) its like passing kidney stones.

As for those that take this as a complaint..
learn why before you assume that we are all " b i t c h i n g ".

As for wanting more.. I expect that VI wants Feedback - both positive and negative to adjust the spell if necessary.
<h5>***********************************************</h5>

Razumihin
08-21-2002, 06:19 AM
Druids should be getting a powerful group heal before this in my opinion.

bdg55
08-21-2002, 06:20 AM
okay, gonna dive into this head first:

54 is the right level, by then most tanks are 4000hp+ buffed, so 2900 and change is good, but not a true CH, this allows the druid class a chance to group usefully if no cleric is around and use our specialize alteration.

And yes Clerics need something, anything, to help them compensate for the pure lack of functionality outside of heal/rez, slow undead is a great idea as is the port to temples.

Hope some of this works it way to live, while i am sure some will get their nose out of joint, most will rejoice....


ahhh my 2cp, where would you be without it....

LilWolf
08-21-2002, 06:23 AM
75% slow?

I could see an undead slow.

75% snare?

You can already get full snare in a few items

75% teleports?

Given out to everyone. Just wait until Pop... be glad that they didn't add CH/warrior and CH/Necro and CH/Ranger...ect

75% magic debuff/fire debuff?

Can get them (better then ours) in PoM...

75% invis?

Can get items for this also.

75% SoW?

JBoots... Run3... By golly, all our abilities seem to have leached out...

75% DoTs?

DoT to undead would be great for clerics. Give them something to do other then heal in a group... But I still like the idea that clerics regen mana when standing so that they can be battle clerics and run into battle and also be able to heal as effectively! I would play one in a second!

75% haste?

Items already have this. But they stack so people think it's different. But how often do shamans cast haste in an xp group? Not as often as slow.

75% pets?

You can have our pets... wait... you have one don't you! Probably as good as bobo is.


Boy, all the things you asked for you basically have... thats pretty convient. Seems that druids aren't required in every group anymore because of it... like...well...clerics.

I would LOVE to see the spells that clerics cast and don't seem to like that much moved around to leaviate the pain of playing and add fun things to each class. Make it so people WANT to play each class because it's fun, even in a xp group.

I love the idea of battle cleric. I love the idea of reducing 'can you go 3 zones and res me please' (either by removing the xp on death or giving xp res to other classes).

But what do clerics really want anyway?

SilleyEskimo
08-21-2002, 06:24 AM
I'm at 3500 HP with raid buffs and resist gear and my items are far from Uber. I think I can take a couple of whacks ;)

Fairweather Pure

Trevize
08-21-2002, 06:28 AM
- Uber Druids know that 2925 is around 1/3 of a heal (33%) for todays Tank (shoot our bard is around 7200 buffed and Rogue's are closing in).


So true, so true. Hell that's not even 75% of my own buffed Hitpoints as I'm closing in on 5k HP very fast.

Anyway. I'm thrilled Verant is testing healing on test. Even at it's current 2925 HP heal in 10 seconds for 400 mana shows me that Verant has really thought about where to target the spell. The more I think about this spell the more I like where it fits. I'm still thinking 8 seconds though would fit better.

I agree with Sobe on the Evoc vs Alt . Currently I'm Evoc and would probably stay Evoc unless AA skills and focus items effect this spell. I also beleive that AA skills and focus should MOST DEFINATLY effect this spell. This spell + AA skills would be a huge boon for druids in caster balancing. It would make druid AA skills which are presently very weak to be suddenly incredibly useful and sought after. Focus items also need to effect this cause if they don't.... well why have focus items. On the subject of focus items I hope Verant gets to round #2 soon. Still can't beleive how many healing 3 items out there are melee items. =/

And ya ya I nerfed my own .sig and I'll make a smaller one soon....

-Trevize - Cats in Hats - Drinal

Tudamorf
08-21-2002, 06:31 AM
Sobe says: 5. Tuma doesn't believe this is Class Balance (/bonk).

What I meant was, this is not a theoretical discussion, but an actual news item about an actual spell that is in testing. Many people don't read this forum and are re-posting it on the general page, or not hearing about it at all. At least there should be a notice there that there's a thread going on in here.

Gaash2002 says: Of course I'll buy the spell if this goes live

Why do you assume you'll be able to buy it?

Teaenea
08-21-2002, 06:35 AM
What do you druids think is good compensation for clerics?


Honesly, I'm not sure if Compensation is really needed, as Clerics aren't actually giving up anything. But, Since you didn't post this as a flame, I'll give my opinions.

Slow - Probably not as it's not something that either clerics or druids can do in any form. Shaman can, but, it looks like their version of the spell will be less effective.

Snare - Normal, no. Undead perhaps. not entirely sure though.

Teleports - No. The closest thing that comes to a Teleport are a Cleric's res ability. It's more of a time saver. Plus, with PoP, Teleports to cities will be much simpler. So, in a way, everyone is getting it in a "ghetto" form.

Magic-Fire debuff: Fire, no. Especially since clerics have no fire based spells. Magic - Undead yes. To the same level that druids can on animals. Druids have an animal only MR debuff at 49ish. This would seem a fair and appropriate addition to the clerics ability

Invis - No. It just doesn't seem to be in the clerics realm of abilities.

SoW - No, but then again, Clerics can get some reasonable speed increases without the spell. Run speed, J-boots, T-boots.

DoT's- I think your Undead DoT's should be as efficient as Any Druid DoT. I don't think that is the case at the moment. Just realize, that Druid Dot's aren't as efficient as most think. Many high level wizard DD's are more efficient than our best DoT.

Haste- No, Same reason as Slow.

Pets - Heh, wan't to trade pets? Booboo is around level 20ish.

So, with your individual ideas listed. Here's what I think Clerics should get to help balance.

Give clerics the following.

1. An Undead only MR debuff that matches the Druids Animal Only MR debuff. (would help soloing, and to a very small extent, grouping)

2. Increase Cleric undead only DD's and DoT's to be the equivalant power to Druids Nukes and DoT's.

3. A High Level 1500 to 2000 pt Direct Heal with the same efficiency of their other non, CH heals. Compair Chloroblast to Natures Touch. Along those lines, but, more HP healed at the same efficiency.

Those are my suggestions.

Tuved Stormrunner
08-21-2002, 06:40 AM
The cleric response over on their boards seems very supportive for which I'm very grateful. Lets face it VI didn't have to give us anything. Instead they made DoT's stack for us, they are likely removing the snare component of our epic, they removed the 10 percent healing penalty for non clerics, (we got moonfire, my personal favorite hehe), AND we're getting a much more powerful single target heal. 3k for the price of NT. That's very cool. I will be able to efffectivly heal as a backup healer on raids now for non tank groups and even do ok on non MA tanks. This is wonderful. The clerics support it and if it goes live I'll personally not say a bad thing about VI ever again hehehe.

I honestly don't understand the level 54 though on this spell. It should be level 60. Why should a level 54 heal for 3k for the same manna as NT and a level 60 spell heal for 981 for the same manna?

Daanya
08-21-2002, 06:46 AM
Several things.

First, I'm not a druid. I'm a 60 cleric. Came here just to see what the druid response was.

To about 70-85% of you: Thank you. With tweaking this can be a nice spell and I think it's great you all agree if this goes life, clerics could use some MAJOR enchancements.

To the rest of you: grow up.

To the ones saying 3k is not enough: Have you ever seen a CH rotation? Landing a CH when the tank is less than 60% health is asking for problems. You simply must leave room for error in either lag, a person's innability to count, add, whatever. A tank would be hard pressed to beat 8k hp. 40% of 8khp is 3200 hp, which is about as much as you can heal anyway.

And yes, slight modifications would need to be made, as the druid couldn't go above 75% health. So, for instance, it could be timed to land when the tank is at 45-50% health, and a 25% heal is perfectly good and probably about as much as clerics do anyway.

54 is just fine for a level. Too often VI specifically designs things only for the lvl 60 crowd and it's getting pretty drab. Being 60, I get to take part in it all, but it's kind of silly to see them selling out like that, so I for one think it's a good level.

And while I didn't see this sentiment much, just to squelch the few who did voice an opinion something to the effect of "Well good, now clerics won't have a strangelhold on group situations," you must not have played in the past year or so. I'm lucky if I can get a group 20% of the time and I've resorted to soloing for exp. And btw, you may not be the masters of soloing anymore, but you're still a whole lot better than me.

The main reason this is good is because clerics will get the upgrades we need. I'm seeing one or more of:

- Self invis
- Better designed port stones (Dear VI: I killed a couple mobs in PoG.. thx for worthless portstone!!)
- Upgrade to Judgement at level 60 (Approx: 350 mana, 1150 damage)
- Upgrade to Exile Undead at level 59 (Approx: 275 mana, 1075 damage)
- Upgrade to Epitaph of Life at level 58 (Approx: 400 mana, 1450 damage)
- Undead snare (Approx: 125 mana, 60% movement reduction, 4 minute duration)
- Useful AA's (AA Rez changed to once a day, Regen changed to once an hour, DA changed to once an hour, TU changed to insta-cast, IIVU changed to PERMANENT while not attacking/casting)

Trevize
08-21-2002, 06:48 AM
There's lots of reason to put this spell at level 54.

First it's % based heal so it's use is very different then NT.
Second. can we say fizzle? At level 54 I'd wager this may be a high fizzle rate spell. By level 60 those fizzles should be highly reduced. At level 60 with AA points those fizzles will be near zero.

Anyway... that's my guess on why level 54.

Geddine
08-21-2002, 06:48 AM
Well I was shocked at the level 54 part also, I thought it would be in the range of 57-60. As to all those who talk about getting/having a million and 1 AA points. Just think not everyone does. It happens alot of very high level people troll these boards but I think you'll find the majority of the druid population in game is lower than 60. I see mention of small MoBs such as Vindi, well it does go to show you may have forgotten where you came from. For some people he is a very tough challenge. My guild attempted him the other day and got him to 1% before wiping, he was 1 blast or so from dieing. I'm sure if the druids had this heal he would have been very possible.

I personally don't like the healing role, but it is the role I'm given at raids when not enough clerics turn up, but I'm resorted to healing casters only or in group 8 or 9 with the scraps. It'll be good to be a replacement Cleric on raids, but if they are there I also like the ability to nuke when I can or needed.

Clerics should look at this as a good thing in one way. With a decent backup healer the pressure comes off them to HAVE to turn up to ever raid, stuck on a CH rotation instead of doing something with a bit of variety.

Well thats about it.

Geneze
08-21-2002, 06:49 AM
<--- Cleric

Let me just say, I think this is a great idea. I do not begrudge druids getting this spell at all. I *hate* CH.

Welcome to the rotation, fellow whores!

Tuved Stormrunner
08-21-2002, 06:51 AM
Yeah 54 is a fine level if NT wasn't already 60. Not sure what the point is in working for NT. The shorter cast time? If they introduce this CH type spell they really should give NT the cast time of Chloroblast. Something has to be dont to it to make it a level 60 heal.

A Lenen
08-21-2002, 06:52 AM
I think this is an awesome addition for us. It is a great heal for us, but there is one thing that concerns me. Somone already mentioned this, but if it is a % heal, then it shouldn't have a cap. As was said earlier, they should figure out what % they want us to have, and set it there, no cap. Otherwise we're going to have another scaling issue as tanks hps increase.

Sobe Silvertree
08-21-2002, 06:53 AM
I just want to know why level 54 is such a big deal, I hear shocked, concerned etc.. but no real solid information on why it shouldn't be 54.

More Evidence leads to it being best suited for level 54 (20 levels after Cleric CH).

Fizzle less, heal more..

Learning Curve.. let the 54 + Druids Learn how to use it.

Good for Grouping from 54 +, I like to see more "Druids Group" instead of solo'ing.

Nothing so far really deserve's your willingness to nerf the level of the spell.

Grolmn
08-21-2002, 07:03 AM
If I read this spell correctly you will only heal for 2925 if the person being healed has 4000hp or more. So it will heal 75% of their total hps or 2925, whichever is greater. So my raid buffed hps are about 3400, so this spell would only heal 2550. Not bad at all, just pointing out this is not just a flat 3k heal.

LyphNmar
08-21-2002, 07:03 AM
>Yeah 54 is a fine level if NT wasn't already 60. Not sure
>what the point is in working for NT. The shorter cast time? If
>they introduce this CH type spell they really should give NT
>the cast time of Chloroblast. Something has to be dont to it
>to make it a level 60 heal.

A 10 sec cast time spell will never replace a shorter cast time spell for patching or saving a butt.

Clerics too get CH before Divine light or Remedy, a 10 sec casting time heal is a hard to use tool and it request some preemption of fight to use it effectively, but you guys will discover that soon, it's part of the fun !

Anyway as soon this heal go live, I want to rush Vindi with only druids in rotation, that gona rock. :)

Lystrahawk Northernfury
08-21-2002, 07:04 AM
I'm quite honestly stunned about this development. It is in point of fact, more than I dared hope for. I figured we'd be lucky to get a 50% heal let alone a 75% with a 3k cap. 54 seems about the right level-- thats about the time when grouping dried up as a druid and forced me into a life of solo'ing to get to 60 (which I hated).

Cheers... Lets hope it makes it off test. And I have no complaints... I really wish everyone would take this as the blessing it is rather than look a gift horse in the mouth :)

nieros
08-21-2002, 07:04 AM
3 words to play with :

'peridot reagent cost'

Just a thought ehh ;)

Would love to see clerics get something to help emm make xp, undead dot would be sweet and yes a self only invis please for the love of god let them get that!

Very curious how this will all turn out.
Just sit back and see what happens imho.

- nieros

Falamil Woodhelven
08-21-2002, 07:05 AM
I've seen several people reference the heal capping at 75%.


Do we know that this spell will not heal a PC to over 75%? It would seem to make more sense to me that the spell will heal up to 75% of the total hit points of a player, not stop at 75% of their life bar.


If the heal is capped to not take a player above 75% of their total, that's going to cut a lot of it's usefulness healing ramage tanks and casters. Especially casters.

Mikar
08-21-2002, 07:14 AM
Sobe

At level 54 no tanks have more than 4k hp. Hence your druidCH is a 3k heal and CH is a 4k heal - but much of the time they both land for 3k or less - and the rest of the time CH still doesnt land for 4k but merely somewhere between 3k and 4k. So, at level 54 druidCH will be 90% of clericCH or better.

As a cleric I think thats broken - but I obviously dont know if you as a druid agree.


Thats making some assumptions on what 75% means I admit - it could mean different things.

Example: 6k hp tank at 3k hp

A - It heals only 1500 hp because 75%*6k = 4.5k so you cannot heal to above 75%.
B - It heals 2250 hp because (6k-3k)*75% = 2250.
C - It heals 3k hp because 6k*75% > 3k.
D - Something else entirely

Assuming its A I think its not good enough at all - assuming its C I think its too good sub-60 and outside raids but thats its SPOT ON for 60 raids.

Maybe the suggestion posted on Graffe to make it option C but have it cost some gem to cast isnt all bad (though I dont think it should be as much as a peridot - maybe some 2-3pp gem).

That way druids would get the boost you badly need for raids without upsetting exp groups too much.

Xelar Willowshade
08-21-2002, 07:15 AM
This seems a bit much to me....

75% heal with a max of 3k? Ten second casting time? The casting time really is trivial, and the heal is a tad more powerful then I ever would have expected VI even to contemplate. CH essentially "ruined" EQ, so giving something similar to the other priest classes will trivialize every encounter.

/shrug I am glad they are looking into druid healing since it needs work, but I just can't believe that this would be the correct answer.

Twirlingwood
08-21-2002, 07:17 AM
Thank you Verant!! This will help alot!


Not so bitter now)

peace
Thistlewood

Sir Yakk
08-21-2002, 07:18 AM
Because it makes druids and clerics more similar.

I mean, verant, come on! Do something interesting! Give druids a defining ability!

Instead, they go and copy another class' defining ability.

How about a 12 second duration damage absorb shield, equal to 75% of the targets max HPs? (Not that useful in XP grinds, amazing on raids)

A spell that heals 25% of the targets LOST hps (ie, current damage) per tick, for 4 ticks? (not that useful on raids (stacking issues, etc), good in XP grinds)

A stacking spell (so more than 1 person can cast) that makes 5% to 50% to 100% of the damage on the target get applied to the druid (different spells, for raids & grind), and vice-versa? (low % good for raids, high % good for groups)

A small resist debuff, with a counter. -4 to all resists and AC, 30 second recast time, PER cast of the resist debuff. (VERY good for long raids)

75% SoW?

JBoots... Run3... By golly, all our abilities seem to have leached out...

SoW is 50%+. JBoots/Run3 is under 20. That's not 75% of a sow.

...

Now if this goes live, what should clerics get to make them viable?

NOT a druid or shaman ability.

Try something like:

PBAE lure-resist root (fixed duration, breaks on damage). Possibly makes the targets immune to damage shields.

Death-proc AoEGroup DA buff.

Last-chance spells: 20% chance for a group DA+evac (brings corpses, on failure places a buff on everyone preventing another attempt).

Fast-casting group CHeal, drops cleric to 1 HP.

Gift of Grace (buff that makes all heals heal 10% more).

Blade Barrier (long duration/long recast rain spell, hits 2 mobs per pulse -- effectively an area DoT)

Heal proc buff.

- Better designed port stones (Dear VI: I killed a couple mobs in PoG.. thx for worthless portstone!!)

Lol. Isn't hindsight 20-20? Maybe in PoP, you can earn back some of that faction for killing the belovid children of your diety.

Nimphe Wildwood
08-21-2002, 07:26 AM
Uber Druid or Not...if it's an upgrade...be happy about it.

Foulsbane01
08-21-2002, 07:27 AM
[Foulsbane, shut up. Your post has been edited because you chose to violate the posting policy by writing a semi-illiterate flame.]

ShadowfrostXev
08-21-2002, 07:29 AM
There is no reason why the compensatory clerical abilities should be specific to undead.

From a class balance point of view, upgrading clerical abilities against undead would impact most on necromancers and paladins, while not affecting druids and shamans at all.

I can understand that druids would want it to be this way... However, it is druids and shamans who are receiving powers which clerics previously possessed, so from a balance point of view, the clerical upgrades have to come from the druid/shaman list of benefits.

Snare. Slow. Haste.

Xican TempestWolf
08-21-2002, 07:31 AM
Little Help here, folks. Apparently I'm retarded. How in the hell does this help a Druid's raiding capability?

Hold on wizard's! I'll start my ten second heal now! **5 seconds pass** /ooc Wizard down!!

Really, this heal is the very essence of mediocrity. It's just not enough to heal a fully buffed melee. And it's too long to heal a caster. This doesn't fit in on raids at all.

Where will this help? I'd imagine in places like Ssra, or the Deep. We can become an efficient main healer in exp groups of high level.

Over all pessimistic consensus by Xican: This is a nice spell for those of you that were hoping to get more AA with your guild in the late game dungeons. If you wanna use this on a raid however, you'd best be prepared to get your @#%$ handed to you on two basis' alone. One: This will generate a ****load of aggro. Not the kind of aggro a Druid can handle (No chain armor et al Shaman). Two: It's completely ****in' useless on a raid. The people you need to be healing will be dead by the time you finish casting.

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 07:32 AM
CH essentially "ruined" EQ, so giving something similar to the other priest classes will trivialize every encounter.

As long as you don't give out something better than CH, the potential difficulty of an encounter will not change. It might make it easier on guilds if they are short on clerics, but it won't have any effect on the encounter since nothing in the game design is stopping them from bringing more clerics.

SoW is 50%+. JBoots/Run3 is under 20. That's not 75% of a sow.

SoW is a 55% speed increase at level 60. Jboots are a 35% speed increase. That means with jboots you are running 87% as fast as someone with level 60 sow.

Teaenea
08-21-2002, 07:33 AM
No shadow. You forget. Druids and Shaman already have the ability to Heal. So, using that logic, any Cleric upgrades should come from abilities that All three classes have. Not just one as in Snare, Slow, Haste.

Adon Borealis
08-21-2002, 07:38 AM
So like a pet that stays for more than one mob?

ShadowfrostXev
08-21-2002, 07:43 AM
No shadow. You forget. Druids and Shaman already have the ability to Heal. So, using that logic, any Cleric upgrades should come from abilities that All three classes have. Not just one as in Snare, Slow, Haste.

Surely you understand my point better than that.

Silverblade the Enchanter
08-21-2002, 07:45 AM
Hm, this is nice for druids :)
Hope clerics get some things to make the class re fun.

But, will this mean mages have to make More rods or LESS?
better be less...*sigh* have to make rods for clerics AND druids...screw that :(

Redorious
Archmage
Karana

Teaenea
08-21-2002, 07:46 AM
Heh, if you want a pet that is identical in stats to Booboo, and looks like a hammer at level 55+ (same as Boo-Boo) Have at it.

Tuved Stormrunner
08-21-2002, 07:47 AM
Isn't CHeal also 10sec? I think we'll figure out ways to use this spell. I think they also should in addition lower the cast time a little on NT to make it "better" than this spell. I greet most changes to our class with a /shrug now anyway. I'm sure this will be usefull in some context. I'm not really excited about getting chosen for groups as a healer though. Heheh I wish we could attach a message to LFG like we can AFK. LFG------No I will not be the groups healer. Get a cleric. I nuke.------- :p

Aidon Rufflefuzz
08-21-2002, 07:50 AM
Dont' make me harrangue you in game Gaash =P

Tuved Stormrunner
08-21-2002, 07:52 AM
Sobe, my point isn't so much that the druid 75 percent heal spell shouldn't be 54. Yes clerics get cheal even earlier. My point is, what's the point of then having NT in it's current form be level 60? Make NT cast rocket fast like Chloroblast and then you've got a nice level 60 spell.

Graal the Dorf
08-21-2002, 07:53 AM
I can't believe I am seeing people whine about this spell. That's friggin ridiculous.

For those people complaining about the cap, think about this: How many hp does a tank usually have when a CH lands on him? Usually more than 1 bubble of health. That means that if this spell was used exactly the same way as CH in xp groups, it would give the exact same effect. It would essentially be exactly the same as CH. That is why there is a cap on the amount of hp healed.

The last few times I've had CH cast on me, I easily had more than 25% of my health left.

Ennder
08-21-2002, 07:54 AM
This is a great change but I do think clerics need a little something to try to keep things balanced in the healing department. I would suggest something like a 2kish hp direct heal with a lower casting cost, maybe 4 seconds or so. Something that is useful in a raid type encounter since there really aren't any direct heals that are.

Even with no changes this won't put clerics out of a job, in raids or exp groups. Will just tone down the number of clerics you need. You will be able to get by without a cleric in a more healing intensive exp grind, but you'd still be better with a cleric. You'll be able to scrape buy with 1 or 2 fewer clerics in a raid, but you'd still rather have the cleric than the druid for the rotation.

Sashanna
08-21-2002, 07:56 AM
My guilds tanks are a hair under 8k hps fully buffed. 3k more like 35 - 40% of their hps.

Legolys
08-21-2002, 07:56 AM
I really don't understand clerics asking for something to "compensate" them.

What did druids get when clerics got their nukes upgraded to more than 75% of druid nukes? (and for several levels in the 50's are *better* nukers than druids)

What did druids get when clerics got faithstones, the Nexus, firepot binds, and future PoP enhancements to travel? For 8 months, druids even had to stay bound in the Nexus or have to spend the same 15 minutes as everyone else waiting on the spires. During that time, clerics could still bind anywhere they wanted and use their faithstone to get home for banking or transporation elsewhere.

What did druids get when every class no longer needed sow because they had Run3? Get real clerics - When was the last time you asked for a sow?

And yet clerics still have rez, better buffs, and *yes* still better heals. A 50-75% heal for druids is not going to take away the need for clerics with their heal-over-time, group heals, and still 100% CH. And as many have mentioned, druids will have a harder time using their new heal due to lack of AC (plate vs leather) and lack of DA.

Clerics still rock. They are still going to be *preferred* in most exp groups over druids. They are still going to be *preferred* in most raid situations over druids.

This change, if it goes live, doesn't warrant *any* new capabilities for clerics. If you get some, great - But don't act like you deserve them due to this change.

Vonic
08-21-2002, 07:59 AM
I think this spell will be a great addition to the druid arsenal. I agree with the sentiment that a 3k is probably a reasonable ceiling for the druid and that the cast time also keeps us in line without infringing on clerics. I'm really looking forward to seeing this go live and hope it does.

I also freverently hope they do something for our poor cleric brethern to make their gameplay more interesting and less of a burden. I think a cleric invis and/or wider range of gate abilities such as that available thru the new faithstones would be a good addition.

Znail vh
08-21-2002, 08:01 AM
Talyena, so how much worse is a 10 hp buff on a 7k tank compared to a 1000 hp buff? (7010/8000=88%)

Sinark
08-21-2002, 08:02 AM
Re: getting the spell at level 54. I suspect that the level is purely for testing purposes. If they set it to 60 on the Test server, they may not get as many people using it as they'd like, and perhaps not get sufficent data as a result.

Similarily, I wouldn't expect it to be easy to get if it does go live. I'm inclined to think that it would be a level 60 spell dropping from a high level encounter.

SilleyEskimo
08-21-2002, 08:04 AM
"The last few times I've had CH cast on me, I easily had more than 25% of my health left."

Not to mention that with regens, I never want my MT at full health anyway. I keep em right around 80-90 full at all times.

Fairweather Pure

Nimphe Wildwood
08-21-2002, 08:04 AM
I say again, Uber Druid from Uber Guild or Not Uber Druid from a Not Uber guild....If it's an upgrade, be happy. Could be worse and not getting the spell at all.

A Lenen
08-21-2002, 08:06 AM
I can understand your concern that druids are going to be infringing upon your abilities. We may have a % based heal now, that used to be only your niche...now it's something given to other classes.

Somehow, I can't play the violin for you, considering how many of our abilities were given to other classes with no compensation.

Just remember, this is balancing, so there will be changes which there is no compensation for. Clerics and shaman are hugely more desireable for almost all circumstances. Its about time we made it so there were 3 priest classes instead of 2.

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 08:08 AM
I can't believe I am seeing people whine about this spell.

Exactly who is whining? Is it whining to say this or that should be done different with a spell? I think it is feedback, and this type of feedback is one of the main reasons a spell like this is even being looked at. I am sure there are people from VI surfing the boards to see what people have to say about the spell changes.

At first, I didn't really like the 75% cap. It just seems restricting, but since the spell is marked at level 54, it makes sense. I still think a spell more along the lines of a 66% heal with a much higher cap would be the way to go. It wouldn't be as powerful as this one at 54, but it would scale much better for future expansions. This spell as done right now starts dropping in power the first time a new higher hp item is dropped in the game and continues until they need to check balance again. Don't get me wrong though (want to make sure you don't think I am whining), this is a major upgrade to the druid class and I will gladly take it. It will probably keep me quite happy until I quit the game. On the other hand, you never know how hp are going to expand in the next expansion and we will be back here telling them that our healing power is dropping once again.

Adon Borealis
08-21-2002, 08:10 AM
This change, if it goes live, doesn't warrant *any* new capabilities for clerics. If you get some, great - But don't act like you deserve them due to this change.

There will be changes to the cleric class. Don't worry your pretty tree hugging head over it.

And to answer your points, druids now have DoTs that stack, 75% CH, Luclin teleports, removed penalty on heals, their epic effect changed to remove the snare component--that I can mention off my head.

In that time, clerics have had the hammer pet that no one uses reduced in mana cost from 600 to 250. You think Boo-boo is useless?

There will be changes. Oh yes, there will be.

Polygirl
08-21-2002, 08:15 AM
If you think about rolls in the game there are at least 2 classes for almost every raid roll if one class isnt available the other class can take the role. Clarity, Mez, Charm = Enchanters and Bards - Tanks= Warriors Sk's Pallys-- Pullers =Monks Shadow Knights - Slows = Shammy Enchanter Heals = Cleric.. you cant do any big raids situation if you have no clerics giving someone else the ability to heal better such as they are doing on test is just going to get rid of the age old problem of" We have no clerics on tonight so we cant raid" situation.

Now only if our necros friends could get a little hope as we have gotten with these test heals. =/

Tenzan
08-21-2002, 08:18 AM
Hmm, is there any reason now to level my 51 cleric when I have a 55 druid on the shelf? Anyways I grouped with Tuved a while back in Seb disco with my non uber 57 warrior with around 1090ac buffed. Exp group wise if you either chanter or shaman slow, healing other than regen isnt even required. Tuved never had to heal me as MT until that time I pulled 7+ mobs, hehe sorry again Tuved(we had no enchanter). But the point is with regen+slow healing is not a issue in standard exp groups. BTW Tuved i'm still impressed with those 2x2700+ crits you did in less than 15 mins.

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 08:21 AM
Talyena, so how much worse is a 10 hp buff on a 7k tank compared to a 1000 hp buff? (7010/8000=88%)

And as long as ch hits them both at 7000, then both buffs get the job done. The main purpose of sow is to out run the mobs. It doesn't matter if you are 35% faster than the mob or 55% faster. And if you really want to be 55% faster, you can buy sow potions (where is my symbol potion?) or better yet, buy a horse and travel at near bard speed (where can I spend 100k to get a mana free hp buff that is better than aego?).

Tubbz
08-21-2002, 08:23 AM
Heals are nice, but again I don't know that I want to be third in the string for whatever the new ability that makes us wanted is.

I'd like to have an ability that is EXCLUSIVE to my class. But if you think about it - there's one slot available and the choice is between a Shaman and a Druid both with the 75% heal capability I the Shaman would be chosen, mega-buff city, slows and speed - all best in class (well maybe not speed).

Give us something that only WE can do, or that we do the best. This would make us more sought after IMHO.

Just my $.02

aanmezz
08-21-2002, 08:30 AM
Just remember, this is balancing, so there will be changes which there is no compensation for. Clerics and shaman are hugely more desireable for almost all circumstances.

This is the sort of doom and gloom and prediction that makes this discussion board so famous. As a 56 enchanter, I can tell you that the first exp group I set up if these spells go live will start with /who lfg druid 54 60 all. I can assure you a druid would be my first choice, far and away. Here's why...

a) As an enchanter in most 54+ exp zones, I am necessary for haste/slow/mezz/C2, so groups want me.

b) Since I have haste and slow covered, I don't need a shaman. Also, the druid CH is better by 50% than the shaman CH, so go with what works.

c) I would like HB and Symbol, but I can get by on druid HP buff and my personal shield and thank goodness for Rune3 and the 1 jasper cost.

d) Druid DS kicks my DS' booty so I get that base covered. There are DS potions and items, but druid DS stacks and shaman and clerics don't have it.

e) Druids have snare, as in best on in game. Clerics and shaman don't. No running mobs.

f) Druids can port me and the group to our grind. If it is camped, we can quickly go elsewhere. Can a shaman or cleric offer me that?

g) If the druid has a leafblower (and which 54+ druids don't?), I get a mana free DoT with every mob, even if it doesn't burn for full dmg.

h) If things get unruly, we have evac. Evac is always preferable to death->rezz. Shaman and clerics dont have evac, do they?

i) Druids have the 2nd best nukes in the game. Shaman and clerics do not.

This is the reasoning of an enchanter and how many 54+ exp groups don't bring enchanters along? So keep telling me how shaman and clerics will be the top two preferred healers and I will keep saying that if any druid that is 54+ is lfg when this goes live, I guarantee that I will grab you for a grind over a cleric or shaman every day of the week and twice on Sunday. I play on Vazaelle as Aaneldaarie and will happily back up that claim.

When this goes live, you will see that I will not be the only person who has considered all this. Trust me.

Aaneldaarie
Segzy Dominatrix of Felwithe

Aaeamdar
08-21-2002, 08:31 AM
For those people complaining about the cap, think about this: How many hp does a tank usually have when a CH lands on him?

The problem with the cap is not that it prevents this spell from healing enough right now. IMO, 75% is too close to CH, unless it is capped. The problem with the Cap is that two expansions later, it puts VI right back where it is now - Druid heals won't keep up with Mob damage (mob damage has increased because PC HP have increased, making CH more effective requiring a retuning of mob damage output). If 3k is the right spot for Druid healing RIGHT NOW, then VI needs to give us a percent based heal without a cap that heals 3k on the average tank today. IMO, that % heal is somewhere between 40% and 50%. If they do that, they don't have to revisit this topic again. If they cap it, eventually they will be right back where they are now.

As an aside to that, if they manage to change the 125 limit on item bonuses, then they should also change CH for a 10,500 heal to a 100% heal. (Which, of course, they need to not give to mobs).

Daanya
08-21-2002, 08:32 AM
Legolys you must be reeeeally jealous of clerics or something. Let's break apart this post.

What did druids get when clerics got their nukes upgraded to more than 75% of druid nukes? (and for several levels in the 50's are *better* nukers than druids)
Your dots have been and still are FAR better damage than our dd's. Don't even begin to whine about a takeover of damage dealing ability.

What did druids get when clerics got faithstones, the Nexus, firepot binds, and future PoP enhancements to travel? For 8 months, druids even had to stay bound in the Nexus or have to spend the same 15 minutes as everyone else waiting on the spires. During that time, clerics could still bind anywhere they wanted and use their faithstone to get home for banking or transporation elsewhere.
You have got to be joking me. Seriously. Since release you have been able to travel to almost any zone by porting, then putting up sow and running the distance. Now, we get faithstones. Do you realize how much they suck? Do you? With the sole exception of Humans, they dropped you off in a remote city where the only perk is buying dots, banking, and burning a manastone. Guess what.. MISTY PORT!! You've had that for years!! Plus I WISH I could have efficiently bound in Nexus. If you plan on doing Seb, GFL on that. If a group dies they expect the cleric to be bound at bubble for quick turnaround. And Velks (in addition to sucking) is even a long haul to be bound at Nexus.

And wtf is with this PoP enhancements to travel?! I have heard nothing and I stay pretty abreast on issues like these. Even if there are rumors circulating, they are just that. I would not count on anything in PoP yet in terms of balance. But nice try.

What did druids get when every class no longer needed sow because they had Run3? Get real clerics - When was the last time you asked for a sow?
Get real Legolys, run3 is definately less than sow. And What did clerics get when our rez was whored to paladins? What did clerics get when our DL was whored to YOUR CLASS. What did clerics get when our 15% bonus over you was dropped to 5%?

If you are honestly miffed that no one relies on sow for you so you can charge 5pp tips or something, grow up.

And yet clerics still have rez,
By, whoop-de-do, 6%

better buffs,
On raids, 1 clr is enough to buff everyone and in exp groups, who cares?

and *yes* still better heals.
NOT REALLY. First SH, then Remedy, then DL were all whored to you. ALL WE HAVE IS CH. Now you get that. You know, it used to be a joke to say that such a class wants CH. Everyone knew that was the one thing clerics could do. Well now, you can too. Congrats.

A 50-75% heal for druids is not going to take away the need for clerics with their heal-over-time, group heals, and still 100% CH.
OMG! ROFL YOU ACTUALLY MENTIONED 100% REZ???!

See, when people have to mention things like the loss of uniqueness of sow, or Divine Rez, you know they are at a loss of things to prove their point. Lemme clue you in. The recast is somewhere in the one week of REAL TIME. And know what? It's for 4 EXTRA PERCENT! Pardon me while I faint.

And about "the need for .. heal-over-time, group heals" .. Have you positively lost your mind? First of all, paladins have better AE heals than us. It's not really up for debate. And lets compare: 300 mana, 1200-1500 health, 24-30 second duration versus 400 mana, 2000-3000 health, 12 second duration (including some lag / standing). Yea I'd say that pretty much invalidates it.

And as many have mentioned, druids will have a harder time using their new heal due to lack of AC (plate vs leather) and lack of DA.
Cry me a bloody river. First of all, the aggro generated from CH is only apparent if there is an unmezzed, unattacked mob, or you sit down right away. It will take even druids only about a week to figure this out and your helpless leather selfs will cope just fine.

Clerics still rock. They are still going to be *preferred* in most exp groups over druids. They are still going to be *preferred* in most raid situations over druids.
We now rock about as much as necros make for tanks. And btw, we won't be preferred in exp groups. I can't believe you even think that. Time it right, and you will heal about 85-90% as well as me, and bring good dots, snare, DS, evac, regen, even booboo to the group. I bring: Aego. WOO!!

This change, if it goes live, doesn't warrant *any* new capabilities for clerics. If you get some, great - But don't act like you deserve them due to this change.
Like hell we don't.

Why is this impossible for you to grasp? All I do in a group is this:
CH
Celes
Nuke

I do nothing else. There's nothing else I CAN do. MoR/K but suck, they sit on page 32. Stuns aren't worth the time as I already have extra mana just with CH/Celes. You can now do 85% of my CH (Yes, you're going to need to learn to time it right, but it's there), You have NT/Regen to cover my Celes, and god knows you can do more dmg than me. Why again will a group want me?

And to the other druids, I'm sorry if I'm sounding envious, jealous, harsh, whatever.. it's just there seems to be those who think the violin has been playing for them for the past year and a half, when it's simply not true.

greggo rumbletum
08-21-2002, 08:34 AM
Necros got dot stacking....oh wait we are getting that too :0

Necros can mez and heal and regen mana; its a pretty underrated class.

Firemynd
08-21-2002, 08:34 AM
I'm not engaging in any criticism of this spell -- mana cost, heal ratio, heal cap, etc. -- until it goes live. While I am excited to see it being tested by Verant, I realize full well that it may be nerfed all to hell by the time it goes live (thinking: NR) ... and that's IF it goes live.

What I will say in advance is this:
ANY spell which is to be considered a factor in "class/priest balance" should NOT be restricted to dropping from named-cycle NPCs that only top-tier guilds have any hope against. Such would not be balancing for the druid CLASS, it would merely be a bonus for druids in a select minority.

If this new spell goes live and ends up dropping only in places where top-tier guilds effectively "own" the rights, we won't be any closer to class balance than we were before.

~Firemynd

Atermy
08-21-2002, 08:34 AM
druids want = druids get

Broomhilda
08-21-2002, 08:37 AM
I think this new CH is even better than what ideas we came up with. It has its limits that make it acceptable to Clerics(most of them at least), while significantly improving our ability to heal in raids, making Clerics less of a necessity as they were. Which was the main problem to begin wtih, Clerics are too vital to a raid happening that its imbalancing. I know more than a few uber guilds are recruiting clerics, leaving the lower end guilds short on them. This helps balance that out to some degree.

I'm all for giving Clerics some new abilities. Give them sows, ports, snares, etc. i really dont care. This at least gives Druids a reason to be Alt specc'd again. I'll give Verant alot of credit if this change goes in, just for having the courage to break from the whole 'Cleric healing is sacred' mentality. There are 3 priest classes, its about time Druids could heal like one :P

btw giving Shamans a weaker version of this is being kind. Shamans have been the 'Godly' priest class for a while now...

Yeah, and i'm kinda worried too that i wont be able to nuke anymore.

Overall, a very good idea by Verant.

Sobe Silvertree
08-21-2002, 08:38 AM
Adon say's,
Don't worry your pretty tree hugging head over it.

You complained about our moderation on your class boards, but then you continue with your derogatory remarks here. /respect thy neighbor

Understand?

As for the rest of you - Keep off the grass! We will rake the leaves before winter.

Firemynd
08-21-2002, 08:39 AM
OMG! ROFL YOU ACTUALLY MENTIONED 100% REZ???!

Reading is such a useful skill. Wish we could give it to you through AAXP.

The poster you quoted said "..still 100% CH" --not 100% rez.

Firemynd (edit: fixed quote tag)

Tenzan
08-21-2002, 08:42 AM
"I'd like to have an ability that is EXCLUSIVE to my class. But if you think about it - there's one slot available and the choice is between a Shaman and a Druid both with the 75% heal capability I the Shaman would be chosen, mega-buff city, slows and speed - all best in class (well maybe not speed)."

Sounds like your talking about exp groups so my 2 cents. Lots of exp groups will already have a either chanter or shaman as slower, no need for both since a chanter can slow about as well and can tash to land it easier. Everyone talks about shaman mega buffs but the only ones that are really useful are STA and talisman. So basically you have 2 choices as healer, druid or cleric. DMG shields are underated, the group one sucks but the single target is extremely mana efficient and last a long time. Druid dd's and dot's are superior to a clerics and snare is necessary in dungeons and there aren't always sk's, necros, or rangers around. I'd take the druid.

Who needs rezzes when things go haywire when a druid can just intra zone evac. Oh btw even with no cleric in the group rezzes are pretty easy to come by.

P.S. As a 51 cleric who has spent some time in Seb and KC I can tell you the aggro from CH in exp areas is not bad. With a chanter mezzing+stunning its virtually non existant. Anways druids have roots to park mobs that may aggro them anyway.

Lalian
08-21-2002, 08:49 AM
This'll be great to heal rampaged tanks with. I can also see where it will really help a lower guild. You may see some ghetto rotations with druids doing druid CH and some other backup healers doing Chloro/Remedy and/or NT/DL.

Firemynd
08-21-2002, 08:53 AM
Why is this impossible for you to grasp? All I do in a group is this:
CH
Celes
Nuke

I do nothing else.


You don't rez? You don't DA? Maybe you need to visit some higher level zones so you can get the full benefit of your spell book. :)

You don't root? You don't buff? My goodness, if you were in my group I'd be searching for a replacement cleric long before you actually had to go ...

Much like you seem to see druids as whiners who want it all, I see you as a spoiled, bitter cleric who got angry because you may have had to LFG for more than 15 minutes once or twice. Poor thing. Let me get you a tissue.

~Firemynd

Polygirl
08-21-2002, 08:53 AM
Aye not every guild has a large amount of clerics which limits them from doing things this heal will change a lot for those types of guilds giving them a better chance to do things they couldnt do before.


*Edit: Polygirl (something odd is happening with your post) if you had more text then the above please repost it. I believe its your Signature, thats messing up it up so I am untaging that for now till its fixed.

aanmezz
08-21-2002, 08:55 AM
Lots of exp groups will already have a either chanter or shaman as slower, no need for both since a chanter can slow about as well and can tash to land it easier.

Finally someone who knows what I know. If your exp group has a 54+ enchanter, which is C2, 60% slow, 64% haste and Glamour of Kintaz, taking a shaman or cleric over a druid is doing nothing more than lowering your efficiency and safety margin. Play an enchanter to 54+ and you will get the point.

I am happy that you guys will get this because clerics are too hard to find and you can't swing a dead assling without smacking a druid. So my preferred exp grind options are going to be wonderful!

Stumps Mistrunner
08-21-2002, 09:01 AM
how many times have you been in a high pull area pickup group (even at 60) and within minutes of the cleric leaving, the group breaks up cause the druid healer is oom?
This is a wonderful addition. Will make druids much more viable in a pickup group zones ie, velks pit, DN, CT, whereas before its simply not possible for a druid to be a viable healer without a shammy or chanter slowing, even then, in a fast pull area, still very difficult to keep the MA healed.
I dont think people should get angry about this, its kinda ridiculous, its going to create alot more opportunity for groups to happen and exp to be earned. Clerics will always be healing the MA, and in the *end game* this wont change anything....druids spot heal the MA till CH gets off, this has the same cast time as CH, so it isnt going to be an effective spot heal by any means. Clerics will never be turned away because of a druid, because that same druid can nuke and dot; and guess what, if the cleric does leave , doesnt mean everyone else has to.

Cassea
08-21-2002, 09:01 AM
I can tell you that the first exp group I set up if these spells go live will start with /who lfg druid 54 60 all. I can assure you a druid would be my first choice, far and away


Is it so wrong for Druids to be wanted in certain situations? I think we have been so ingrained with Druids = solo only or crap raid rolls that the very thought of people actually "wanting" a Druid seems so strange.

As it stands now Druids are only called for when other classes are not available. Sure we are good in single groups but only when a group cannot get a cleric. After this change most "single" groups could use any of the Priest Classes as well they should.

For the "big" raids you need the best and Clerics will be desired over all other healers. This change only will allow Shamen and Druids to "fill in" when there is a shortage of Clerics and will ensure that a few Druids are always desired on raids.

Does it scare people so much that maybe - just maybe Druids might move up from group 9 or 10 on a raid to something a little more desirable?

Does anyone see a Clerics being turned away while a group "waits" for a Druid?

Let's be real here.

Yuniargo
08-21-2002, 09:02 AM
Cleric proposal that is totally different from the generic clerics:

If druids were to get the above, clerics should probably change roles a bit.

o Clerics get double attack at 51 and caps at 100 skill at level 60.
o Clerics no longer need to sit to meditate at level 51.
o Clerics get a direct target heal "ability" with a 10 minute timer. Heal amount scales depending on level. Increased heal amount at "significant" levels (10, 25, 40, 51, 55, 60).
o Clerics get a group heal "ability" with a 30 minute timer. Heal amount scales depending on level. Increased heal amount at "significant" levels (15, 30, 45, 53, 58).
o Area effect mezmerize spell or ability (no single target mez) on a long timer. Only useful for emergencies.

In my opinion the above seem very in line with clerics from a role-playing perspective. It would also give the cleric "something to do" if there was a druid or shaman in the group using their new complete heal spell and in my opinion would make the game much more fun for the cleric. The cleric would not be doing "significant" damage that would impact a group's leveling performance and a druid or shaman could even potentially take over the healing for the group if the cleric chose to be an "offensive melee" cleric that day (in an xp group).

What do you guys think? This is what I've always wanted from my cleric when I first created her. I never wanted to be reduced to the "press one button then sit down" class. Please take this into consideration.

Kulothar
08-21-2002, 09:08 AM
All I have to say is thank you Verant. Some positive changes finally.

I have to laugh at the whining that some people are doing because they are a little less UBER but those of us that raid with good teams realize that anything that benefits the team is a good thing.

As for CH agro, it can't be any worse than RSD(FoR/BoR) or Snare (Wrath of Nature) agro... Any raid I can expect to be summoned more than any other class when I am designated for snare and debuff both, but I am used to it and just do my job knowing that someone is covering my back. Now maybe I can help take some of the agro off the cleric and help keep a MA alive when it battle runs too long. That Cleric OOM won't cause as much panic.

Sir Yakk
08-21-2002, 09:09 AM
SoW is a 55% speed increase at level 60. Jboots are a 35% speed increase. That means with jboots you are running 87% as fast as someone with level 60 sow.

Grated. Footspeed effectiveness should be measured as "% of mobs you can outrun", and jboots is definatly more than 75% as good as sow. =)

What did druids get when clerics got faithstones, the Nexus, firepot binds, and future PoP enhancements to travel? For 8 months, druids even had to stay bound in the Nexus or have to spend the same 15 minutes as everyone else waiting on the spires. During that time, clerics could still bind anywhere they wanted and use their faithstone to get home for banking or transporation elsewhere.

That is laughable. The Cleric has to bind at Nexus just as much as a Druid has to bind at Nexus. If not, the Cleric has to spend the same 15 minutes as everyone else waiting on the spires. During this time, cdruids could still bind anywhere they wanted and use their legions of teleport spells to get to many different banks or for transportation elsewhere.

/chuckle.

And as many have mentioned, druids will have a harder time using their new heal due to lack of AC (plate vs leather) and lack of DA.

Psst, a secret: clerics rarely get aggro. Really.

Clerics still rock. They are still going to be *preferred* in most exp groups over druids. They are still going to be *preferred* in most raid situations over druids.

And, this is why this is a bad fix. Druids need an area to EXCEL in, not another area to be not-quite-good-enough.

This change, if it goes live, doesn't warrant *any* new capabilities for clerics. If you get some, great - But don't act like you deserve them due to this change.

But, the thing is, Clerics have had very little utility or power added to them. Because they had CHeal. For 3 expansions.

I'll admit, Druids have had the same problem -- but it was soloing, and ease of leveling from 1 to 54 or so, that justified the lack of additional power over expansions.

However, this isn't the right way to do it. It is more than likely the way Verant +will+ do it, I'll admit.

Shaynia
08-21-2002, 09:09 AM
I rarely ever post on these boards but I do want to add something in respects to this thread. Quick introduction, i'm a 60 druidess in a VT capable guilded with 5k hps buffed and been playing her for 3 years approx.

When seeing new spells come in I examine them from the high end game point of view. I can only say that I'm laughing when people start to imagine themselves being in CH chains for high end encounters with this new spell. I myself think CH chains will still be reserved for high end clerics mainly for a couple of reasons:
- They have the experience to handle CH chains where we have not. It takes time for a guild to get acquainted to eachother and to the healing process. Thinking because druids now have a 3khp heal we can easily slip into that chain is not realistic.
- All our tanks have 7.5K+ hp's. I'm not even going to think of healing them with this spell. We are and always have been support healers and should demand to keep our place in that region. We shine on healing ranger/rogue/monk (ie non-plate classes) during high end raids (ie. Arch Lich type encouters). Getting a 3k heal is not going to keep a main tank up for long. I've seen many instances where 5 secs means dead 7k+ tank (even on rampage) so please don't consider druids a replacement for clerics in the high end game.
- Be careful what you wish for. We are a leather class + have no DA. Being a main healer will inadvertelly get you high on the aggro list of any mob. How many druids are going to survive this without DA? Proves my point again, leave clerics their rightfull place of healing plate classes and main tanks, they are equiped to do the job right.

Now do I say no to this spell, not at all, i'm a druid and any improvement is good. I'm just saddened that all of a sudden druids are considered a viable alternative for a cleric. It may be so in the kunark world, but absolutely not in High end context, at least not with a 3k/10 sec cast time that is..

Sir Yakk
08-21-2002, 09:13 AM
- They have the experience to handle CH chains where we have not. It takes time for a guild to get acquainted to eachother and to the healing process. Thinking because druids now have a 3khp heal we can easily slip into that chain is not realistic.

one two three four five
click
one two three four five
click
one two three four five
click

Kytelae
08-21-2002, 09:15 AM
This is a great enhancement, assuming it goes live.

re: clerics. Just a small thing, but I've always thought that all casters should get the utility spells: invis, levitate, and EB, up to and including hybrids.

Shaynia
08-21-2002, 09:19 AM
Aye assuming the tanks are expecting a full heal on 7k hp's, Imagine how click /5 is going to work on getting a 2.9k heal :p

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 09:20 AM
Clerics no longer need to sit to meditate at level 51.

There is no reason clerics should get this if no one else does. On the other hand, I think this would be a great addition to the game. How about at level 51, standing meditation started at 10% and hit 100% at level 60 for all casting classes? Of course, this should be like horse back where you don't med while moving, fighting, or casting. Or, they could make it an arch or class AA skill. I know that would be one of the top druid class skills if it [/quote]

Racmoor
08-21-2002, 09:21 AM
I really hate when a class gets something and another class says "What do we get in compensation?". If everyone got something then we would be back where we started. Having said that I'm gonna tell you what I think clerics should get to become balanced NOT what they should get in return.

Clerics never have, nor will they ever really have a problem getting an xp group. It may come down to the fact that you don't get to xp in CT with level 60s fully equipped reaping miraculous xp. You may have to start running with some "ghetto" groups on occasion. Face it though, who's going deep into a dungeon without a rez?

I play both cleric and druid. Things I would like my cleric to have.

1) Self Invis.
2) Better undead offensive spells. Is a rain spell unrealistic?
3) The ability to port to "SAME ALIGNMENT" temples from my home temple. Why would a tunare cleric be able to port to Inny's temple? Quite frankly that would be suicide.

Racmoor

Bizitt
08-21-2002, 09:22 AM
I'm very happy with the possibility of a bigger heal -- even though I'm cringing at the possibility of Ghetto CH Rotation(tm) hotkeys. When I heard about this last night, I do admit to a momentary lapse into whining ("WTF, 3k is not 75% of a raid-buffed tank's HP!") until a necro friend quite rightfully smacked me upside the head :) . Dunno if it will go live and in what form, but thanks for looking at our healing, Verant!

I'm a pretty happy druid right now, but this would make me an ecstatic, irritatingly bouncy one!

Not really saying anything that hasn't been said here, but here's a summary of my thoughts on the 75% CH:

1. Great to get a healing upgrade -- I'd actually prefer this over a group heal. Since it's % based, I have no problem with the level.

2. I'm ok with shaman getting full value of it as well, though I'm assuming their 1k penalty is an attempt to balance for torpor's low mana cost.

3. Given the usefulness of this new heal, I will not whine about additional aggro. So I have to give up one of my quest earrings for a mage item during raids and do a little more aggro management tweaking in general. Small price for the utility this brings.

4. What's to be done with NT? With this putative new addition, it's kind of a lame 60 spell in its current form. Maybe, as others suggested, lower cast time and turn it into a 60 chloroblast?

5. Given that this spell will make it much easier for xp groups to have a shm/dru as primary healer, clerics' xp group and soloing abilities should be upgraded as well. I like one of the earlier ideas about undead slow and/or snare, as well as undead-only dots and dds equivalent to druid ones (and maybe an upgrade to the Judgement line of general nukes). They also should get invis.

But all in all, this is Good Times! Can't wait to see what happens if/when some form of this makes it to the live servers!

--Bizitt

Broomhilda
08-21-2002, 09:24 AM
"how many times have you been in a high pull area pickup group (even at 60) and within minutes of the cleric leaving, the group breaks up cause the druid healer is oom?"


Umm, where were you when i was talking about our lack of exp grouping desirability, particularly our inability to heal? And yeah, i can relate to your above example, at least we're playing the same game :) .

You might be shocked to learn some Druids say they can primarily heal anywhere w/o a slower just fine, some have even gone so far as to say they can primarily heal in CT / Regardless, i'd love to see it for myself, actually would be more curious as to the pull rate of the groups those druids are doing.

aanmezz
08-21-2002, 09:27 AM
Is it so wrong for Druids to be wanted in certain situations? I think we have been so ingrained with Druids = solo only or crap raid rolls that the very thought of people actually "wanting" a Druid seems so strange.

I have never claimed that it is wrong for druids to be wanted in certain situations, Cassea. My contention is to oppose folks who think this will mean nothing to clerics or shaman in exp grouping. I am one enchanter on one server, but I can't believe I am the only person who can't see that a) 54+ druids are far easier to locate than 54+ clerics simply because anyone with 12 days played can solo a druid to 54 and b) a 54+ druid with the new 75% CH brings far better efficiency to any group I am in than either a cleric or shaman.

So it isn't wrong that druids get this, but do not be naive enough to think that this will have no downside to the cleric community as far as exp grinding and non-boss raids are concerned. Also, druids have griped continually that finding groups is too hard and they hate soloing, but soloing is still, and always has been, an option. Clerics do not have the solo option and only rogues solo worse. Now you can turn on lfg and solo while waiting for the smart group that knows a druid is best call. Should take bewteen 5 and 10 minutes on a slow day.

Daanya
08-21-2002, 09:27 AM
My apologies Firemynd. I noticed, however, you couldn't find anything else wrong with the reply, so I'm glad to know there's another druid in favor of clerics getting serious improvements as a result of this!

Edit: Noticed you had another post! Let me continue:

You don't rez? You don't DA? Maybe you need to visit some higher level zones so you can get the full benefit of your spell book.

You don't root? You don't buff? My goodness, if you were in my group I'd be searching for a replacement cleric long before you actually had to go ...

Much like you seem to see druids as whiners who want it all, I see you as a spoiled, bitter cleric who got angry because you may have had to LFG for more than 15 minutes once or twice. Poor thing. Let me get you a tissue.

No I don't rez. My groups don't die cuz I don't suck.
No I don't DA because I know how to control my aggro. The spell is loaded though for when a retard in group lives up to his retardedness.
No I don't root. If YOU have ever gone to a "higher level zone" you'd know you mez, not root. And any tank who can't break a mez, I don't want to group with. But again, it's loaded in case.
Yes, I buff. I cast aego twice at the beginning of a group. That's pretty much equivalent to you casting sow on yourself once on the way into a dungeon.

And I don't see all druids as whiners. I see Legolys, and now you as a whiner. Thanks though ;)

LFG for more than 15 minutes once or twice? Do you have an inkling of an idea of what you're talking about? I get groups maybe 20% of the time because druids and shaman do my job just fine. Now you are going to be doing it better. Yep, no reason to be bitter!

Fayne Dethe
08-21-2002, 09:28 AM
I agree with Talyena, how about make it a 66% heal with a 5k heal cap?? There will be even more hitpoint mudflation in PoP so this spell will become relatively useless for raids as time goes on. The only other solution I see is to make it fully work with AA skills and focus items so that a 59+ druid can have the spell still be useful for 7k+ hp tanks. I still think 66% heal + 5k cap would be more "future poof" for upcoming expansion.

Huzurdadi
08-21-2002, 09:28 AM
As I said to each of the clerics when we were "debating" this earlier.

I'm right. You're wrong.

Too bad. Druids needed CH. You were greedy b*tches.

I'm glad to see that druids can heal again. Now Rich has to look into rez.

I have total faith in the dude. He has not made a mistake yet.

He's conservative. A little too conservative in my book, but heck if I was actually changing the code I would be conservative as well. Baby steps.

Rich, man, I hope that you are going to be used on EQ2 balancing. You are doing an AMAZING job. You rock.

Sir Yakk
08-21-2002, 09:31 AM
Aye assuming the tanks are expecting a full heal on 7k hp's, Imagine how click /5 is going to work on getting a 2.9k heal

=) I was just making fun of your "experience to handle CH chains" comment.

But yes, the viability of the Druid Heal depends on what the 75% means.

Does it mean it refuses to heal the top 25% of damage?

Does it mean it only heals 75% of the HPs currently lost?

Does it mean the spell heals min(3 k, .75 * TARGET_HP)?

If the first two, it really hurts on ultra high end -- druids can be used to patch between clerics however, possibly reducing the number of clerics required by a bit.

On easier targets for your guild, 2 druids can replace a cleric.

If the last, 2 druids can replace a cleric on any raid. They both heal (about) the same time, and voila, a nearly-cheal on almost any tank.

Clerics never have, nor will they ever really have a problem getting an xp group.

Shamans > Cleric in many XP areas.
Solo > Cleric in many XP areas.
And really, in many XP areas, a Druid does quite fine right now. What melees really need more than regen?

2) Better undead offensive spells. Is a rain spell unrealistic?

Screw undead offensive spells.

Give clerics a 10 tick, 2 hits per wave, rain spell (blade barrier).

Give them AoE fixed duration root.

Flame Strike (500 magic DD + 1 wave of 500 fire rain).

I mean, how many zones are there to XP in post-50 with undead?

Daanya
08-21-2002, 09:36 AM
Is it so wrong for Druids to be wanted in certain situations? I think we have been so ingrained with Druids = solo only or crap raid rolls that the very thought of people actually "wanting" a Druid seems so strange.

Does anyone see a Clerics being turned away while a group "waits" for a Druid?

No, it's not wrong to be wanted in CERTAIN situations. It is wrong that you will now be superior to us in MOST situations. Most = all but Ssra and CT.

Also, A cleric will very easily be turned away now if a group already has ENC/DRU or ENC/SHM. If you insist otherwise, you're blind to the truth.

ELITWO
08-21-2002, 09:38 AM
*No, this heal was NOT needed for xp groups. The drawback is obviously that the cleric role in xp groups is going to suffer here. I want to see VI's changes to clerics to compensate them for the loss in xp groups.
while I love this as a possible raid fix for druids, I (as a druid) do worry somewhat about the impact of clerics 54-59 getting exp groups.

anyway - I would move this to 57.

also - if I was verant, I would have leaned in the direction of good 600-700pt group heal as a raid fix.

Daanya
08-21-2002, 09:41 AM
Clerics never have, nor will they ever really have a problem getting an xp group. It may come down to the fact that you don't get to xp in CT with level 60s fully equipped reaping miraculous xp. You may have to start running with some "ghetto" groups on occasion. Face it though, who's going deep into a dungeon without a rez?

And the last time you tried to get a group with your cleric is? I spend more time soloing while LFG than anything else I do combined three-fold.

Tenzan
08-21-2002, 09:42 AM
If your uber tanks in your guild have 7.5k hps you also know that CH rotations usually land around 60% of the MT's health. That is 3000hps healed, about the same as the new druid heal. Also 7.5k is pretty uber considering my level 57 warrior has 4200hps raid buffed. This new heal is better than a lot of people think.

Riggen
08-21-2002, 09:42 AM
Personally I was floored when I saw this new heal. It's amazing and I'd love to see it go live. I'm also stunned and a little ashamed to hear fellow Druids complain about something that has the potential to be our best upgrade ever.

We needed something to help with our usefulness in high end encounters without overbalancing our utility in standard groups. This is an ideal solution--a bulk tank heal that automatically loses effectiveness on lower hitpoint targets.

Coupled with the emerging implementation of DoT stacking, I'd say that the future of Druidic raid utility is looking brighter.

Kieros1
08-21-2002, 09:46 AM
I think this will be a great improvement to the druid class. This will certainly help us get into experience groups which btw are, at times, MUCH better than soloing for those clerics who did not know. I hope this goes through and no matter how you slice it, clerics will always be needed and will always be chosen ahead of druids for healing.

anaxamandra
08-21-2002, 09:47 AM
Daayna, without getting into the rest of the
argument, in an earlier post you were wondering
where the info about PoP and all classes travelling
came from.

-------------------------------------------------
*PoP will allow everyone (even lowbies) to port to
any zone -- in the plane of knowledge. *
-------------------------------------------------

I know this because I saw a PoP demo at
GenCon and travel was one of the only things they
would discuss. They have not decided fully yet
on character enhancement advancement. They
showed the plane of knowledge as well as the
large courtyard full of stones (they look like engraved
headstones with the city/zone name on them).

Click once and you are instantly teleported to that
zone.

So unless they throw all that out, it looks like
all classes will have the ability to port.

Legynd Arydoc
08-21-2002, 09:48 AM
I think druids in particular definitely needed a better heal spell. I applaud the change if it goes live and am happy for the druids.

I don't think clerics need "compensation" for this change. I just think clerics have needed changes period for a long time. Luclin has utterly destroyed the 6-man group. 2-box clerics have become the norm for helping melee get xp; they would rather use their 2-box than gimp their own xp by taking a cleric into their group. It seems hardly anyone gets axp by grouping anymore, other than through ae groups (of which there is usually 1 going 24 hours, in FG, still one of the worst designed zones ever).

Clerics can't solo. I have FT15 and plenty of axp and I can't solo efficiently at all. This is the one thing that needs to change, in my opinion. I'm fine with druids and shamans being able to fulfill the priest role in a group. I've always thought an xp group should be able to get by with ONE healer (clr/dru/shm), even at the highest level of the game. I'd just like to see flexibility added to the cleric class so they have some alternative way to get xp when they can't find a group.

I've never understood the whole clerics vs. druids mentality that happens on these boards. We should all be happy for what the other class gets. Druids definitely needed something, and now they're getting it. Clerics also need something (for xp purposes), and hopefully they'll get it too.

Legynd / High Priest / Magister

ScytheEQ
08-21-2002, 09:49 AM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry I wasn't more clear. Speaking to druids, I should know better!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



*rolls eyes*

If you want to come here, discuss something and be taken seriously, leave the God complex at the door and get your point across without insults.

Thanks


Obviously you have never met Adon :) . His head has been the size of Dreadlands ever since he lucked into his Prime Healer's Bulwark. He got an Email answered publically by Verant once, and has been meddling ever since.

Tuved Stormrunner
08-21-2002, 09:51 AM
I totally agree. Give clerics anything they want. They have a terribly boring class to play.

Broomhilda
08-21-2002, 09:51 AM
"LFG for more than 15 minutes once or twice? Do you have an inkling of an idea of what you're talking about? I get groups maybe 20% of the time because druids and shaman do my job just fine. Now you are going to be doing it better. Yep, no reason to be bitter"


We had this topic already, i wish you were here for it;) . I do pickup groups just about every other day, i'm constantly getting passed up for Clerics and Shamans. More frustratingly many of them tend to be lower lvl than i am. The reality that i've experienced is groups tend to want Clerics first. When Clerics arent available, theyll look for a Shaman. When they cant find a Shaman, they'll settle for the Druid but still be looking for another healer. Most groups dont believe a Druid can keep pace, and many times they cant w/o a slower. Cleric has CH, mana efficiency in general heals, which allows them to capably keep a group up by themself. A shaman has Slow which mitigates damage up to 75%, as well as the 2nd most mana efficient heal next to CH. A druid has a 400 mana heal for about 1000 hps. So you tell me if theres a major disparity here when looking at the classes to capably keep a group healed. The only advantage druids get is Natures Recovery which is a good regen but comes nowhere close to allowing us to be capable healers. Dont even bring DS's into it, because if you played a Druid in the high lvls, you'd know just how little that DS amounts to in exp groups.

As for an Enchanter making a Shaman un-needed and vice versa, its really just a matter of adjusting to other classes. Shaman is obviously slowing and playing the healer role, while the Enchanter is on CC and can move to stuns. Stuns+ 75%Slow=no damage taken at all. I've experienced it, and know for a fact one doesnt make the other useless. An Enchanter can do aton of things, more importantly add better mana regen to the group. For the record, a Shaman is a better pure healer w/o Slow than a Druid is if you want to compare them straight up.

SilleyEskimo
08-21-2002, 09:53 AM
"I'm also stunned and a little ashamed to hear fellow Druids complain about something that has the potential to be our best upgrade ever."

LOL

Seriously, have you ever read ths board before? This board could find something wrong with any improvement VI were to give us, no matter how powerful or unbalancing it was. It's funny really. I get a kick out of it. It only makes me mad when other classes read some of the complaints and it gives them ammo to use against me when I try to dicuss druid issues with them :(

Fairweather Pure

vowelumos
08-21-2002, 10:01 AM
It was stated already by VI that Clerics would definately be seeing upgrades to their utility. Until we see what these upgrades are, it does not make much sense to bicker about it.

Tuved Stormrunner
08-21-2002, 10:04 AM
Maybe if we're lucky, they'll give clerics all of our ports :p

Trevize
08-21-2002, 10:06 AM
I'd like to point out something to the clerics and some druids too that keep posting that "they can't get a group because of the other class".

You guys are both missing the boat on this one. Clerics are not going to get fewer groups because of druids get a better heal. Druids arn't your competition in the first place. Same with druids. The reason you aren't getting groups has very little to do with clerics.

The issue is 99% of the melee out there gets better XP solo. Look at Fungus Grove for example, or even Velks. Melee DON'T NEED HEALERS here.

Wizards I think gave up a while ago on doing anything except raiding, quadding or AE groups.

Verant is slowly but surely killing the 6 man XP grind group. And spells such as a new druid heal has NOTHING to do with it.

I really enjoy statements like, "druids will replace clerics in groups every where except CT and Ssra". LOL wake up, melee don't need a healer in so many XP spots now that CT and Ssra are basically the only place you DO need a healer and BING BING BING you nailed it, they MUST get a cleric.

Anyway, clerics inability to find a group has very little to do with druids and this spell isn't going to change that.

I look at the melee in my guild during XP times and none of them are grouped. They are all in their hottest little XP corning soloing. The clerics are in the Bazaar making /rude gestures for a group, the wizards are in ME or The Grey quadding, Enchanters are giving cyber to the clerics in the Bazaar and druids... well some are trying to Quad with the Wizards in ME but OMG the Wizards don't leave much to pull.

That's why when I login first thing I do is send tells to the melee wondering if they have their bane weapons done and if not I yank them over to Ssra mines, snag a cleric, an enchanter and a quadding wizard and go knock out some XP.
Personally, when I see clerics, saying things like "we need something in return if druids get this", then they suggest, "we need gates, sow, invis, etc..." Well, why don't you try GROUPING with a druid then the cleric and the druid can have the best of both worlds in their group and let eachothers skills and spells compliment eachother rather then fighting with eachother over group spots that don't exist anyway. /boggle make a group with a class that has the skills you are looking for. What a novel idea. Oh wait neither class can melee, well are you saying that since clerics need gates because druids have them that you also need melee abilities. Then you don't need to group with melee's either? Come on people, really. It's what making a group is all about.

-Trevize - Cats in Hats - Drinal

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 10:06 AM
Seriously, have you ever read ths board before? This board could find something wrong with any improvement VI were to give us, no matter how powerful or unbalancing it was. It's funny really. I get a kick out of it. It only makes me mad when other classes read some of the complaints and it gives them ammo to use against me when I try to dicuss druid issues with them

But this change wouldn't even be in the works if all druids were like you. You come here all the time saying druids are just fine in your (limited) experience. You seem to think if anyone has experiences different than yours then they are doing something wrong. To top it off, you aren't even level 60 but feel free to tell level 60 druids there is no problem with the class. You should be thanking those druids for without them you would still be waiting for ports to the moon so you could heal your guild mates with a broken fizzle rate SH and your roots would still be breaking themselves when you cast them.

Broomhilda
08-21-2002, 10:06 AM
Without those complainers this thread nor this change would be here. It sure didnt come from the ones who have been content with our healing all along /

Plus, i dont think i've read anything in this thread that amounts to a complaint, as opposed to an honest opinion. People love to make stuff out of nothing, like if anything less than positive is said about something, then some tend to construe it as a complaint. Not that i disagree, i find it hard to complain about this, but people just love to make something out of nothing when their are hardly any complaints.

Firemynd
08-21-2002, 10:08 AM
My apologies Firemynd. I noticed, however, you couldn't find anything else wrong with the reply, so I'm glad to know there's another druid in favor of clerics getting serious improvements as a result of this!


Apology accepted, but be aware, the only reason I didn't reply to other points in your post was because I've learned to discount much of what I read from clerics who visit a druid message board and whine about what clerics need, all while attempting to make arguments against any improvements to the druid class. If you don't want the druids in your guild to be better-equipped to help YOU out, then you're either ignorant or envious, neither of which are qualities that merit much of my attention.

In case you haven't noticed, this is a druid community board, for discussing ideas focused on the druid class. If you believe clerics aren't balanced, this is not the forum in which to seek redressal.

(Note that I do think clerics need a few basic utilities, such as self-invis without relying upon clickable items, but I am attentive enough to notice the big DRUID sign at the top of this forum, and if I ever decide to champion the cleric cause, I'll trot myself on over to the cleric board.)

No I don't rez. My groups don't die cuz I don't suck.
No I don't DA because I know how to control my aggro. The spell is loaded though for when a retard in group lives up to his retardedness.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt; there are many instances in which a rez might be needed, aside from a cleric not knowing how to play the class after 60 levels of practice. But when *MY* groupmate dies because of a lag spike, or bugged mobs coming through floors/ceilings/walls, or getting trained by someone in another group, etc... I know that *I* cannot rez that groupmate. When something beyond my group's control dumps a ton of aggro in my lap, I know that *I* cannot DA while tank establishes aggro, and I know that my group isn't going to be happy about being whisked away to the zone line, to make our way through the dungeon all over again.

And I don't see all druids as whiners. I see Legolys, and now you as a whiner.

If you really think anyone here cares how you see them, your'e more delusional than I suspected and you have a much higher degree of self-importance than is healthy for participation in any community forum. Ciao.

~Firemynd

Broomhilda
08-21-2002, 10:09 AM
Grrr, Talyena beat me to it.

Stumbletoe
08-21-2002, 10:09 AM
Wow. Sounds great to me.

Just wondering though....would Nature's Touch be retired to the back of the Spellbook? If this change goes live....I cant really see a use for Nature's Touch. Chloroblast is much faster, and helps for the patch heals. The new 75% heal would dominate for the needed large heals. So.....Nature's Touch is a useless 60 spell?

No complaints from me though, an upgrade in healing is an upgrade in healing. And something that I would love.

Stumbletoe

Solice Farwalker
08-21-2002, 10:10 AM
This looks like a pretty darn good upgrade.

The only thing is the cast time should probably be a little faster. If the max it will heal is about 3k (not sure what cleric CH is 10K?) then the cast time should be less than the cleric CH, maybe about 7 or 8 instead of 10.

I wouldn't complain either way, but just think it would be of much more use in the situations that something less than a cleric CH is needed, if it had a faster cast time.

Arkin Ryndale
08-21-2002, 10:14 AM
Darn it, my original post on "% Heal" is not available anymore. I made all my excellent points way back when. ;-) A % based heal is a wonderful thing. 75% with 3k max is a nice balance.

The big catch is we might become "heal slaves" like clerics. I like the fact that I cast more than 1 spell. If clerics complain, then they are not seeing the fact that they have other spells available to them.

Anyway, CH is a horrible choke point for the game mechanics. All strategy tends to revolve around it. It will be nice to have more power in druid CH to perhaps try some other techniques. There are more fun tactics to try people!

DigginsEQ
08-21-2002, 10:17 AM
"4. What's to be done with NT? With this putative new addition, it's kind of a lame 60 spell in its current form. Maybe, as others suggested, lower cast time and turn it into a 60 chloroblast?"

I only wish this is the kind of heal upgrade that was really being considered instead of the ridiculous 75% one they're testing out. The above is exactly what we need along with an upgrade to the pathetic Nature's Recovery to balance out our healing abilities at the high end game, not this garbage.

If they reduced the cast time on NT to be equal to chloroblast and slightly upped mana cost, I would never even load up this 3k heal being considered as a raiding player. In the high end raiding groups I'm in(usually the necro group) at such places as Ssra and VT, my job varies. I nuke, dot, debuff, heal casters and do emergency spot healing on the MT/rampage tank when a cleric goes down or LD or whatever. WTF good is this 2950 heal with a 10 second casting time going to do me in those roles? Oh wow, now we can form crappy druid 75% CH chains? lol give me a break.

I generally support the DG's efforts to improve our lacking class abilities and desirability, but I can't understand this obsession with druids being a pseudo-cleric and not much else that everyone seems to think is so great here. Sorry, but I for one don't want to be pigeonholed into a cleric wanna-be. I want to have the class diversity that I really enjoy in my druid and have a "unique" ability like a super fast efficient heal or new buff/debuff that makes raid leaders take notice.

Giving a 3k heal to druids and shaman at level 54 is crazy. It will wipe out the need for clerics for anything but rezzes at those levels because even a decked out level 54ish tank won't have more than 4k or so in hps. At those levels, you're generally in spots like HS, Seb or Velketors. Heck, a good druid can keep his group healed even with the heals we have now in those places. We can also solo and solo well at those levels unlike a cleric. Where's their desirability now if another class can do 75% of what they can and a whole slew of other things as well? Not much. Read what that enchanter posted earlier in this thread heh. I hope the testers at least up this to 58 or so if it goes live.

Yeah, I'm sure I'll be flamed or picked apart for posting this, but a lot of these hypothetical situations people post here to back up their claims that we need CH just aren't played out that way in the real game as far as I've seen. Granted, this new heal would be a boon to druids in exp groups in such places like the Deep or DN where the mobs hit too hard and fast for our healing to keep up currently. For top end raiding situations, this upgrade is mediocre IMO.

SilleyEskimo
08-21-2002, 10:27 AM
Diggins, I sense a little hostility... Correct me if I'm not reading between the lines, but are you saying you're opposed to a 3k heal? I couldn't really tell if you were for or against it.

Fairweather Pure

DigginsEQ
08-21-2002, 10:31 AM
Silly, Heh, I'm neutral on it actually. Like I said, it'll be great for level 60 traditional exp groups in the Ssra mines or Deep if you don't have a cleric around to heal. For level 60 raiding scenarios though, it's a disappointment. I'd rather have seen the casting time on NT reduced.

And, yes, I think it would have a negative effect on mid level 50s clerics. All the druids I've seen saying don't worry here tend to be level 60 druids talking about level 60 situations.

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 10:31 AM
I generally support the DG's efforts to improve our lacking class abilities and desirability, but I can't understand this obsession with druids being a pseudo-cleric and not much else that everyone seems to think is so great here. Sorry, but I for one don't want to be pigeonholed into a cleric wanna-be.

Ummm, dg didnt make that spell, VI did. Why don't you hop over to the paly board and tell them they should have their defensive cap lowered because they shouldn't be pseudo-warriros. Druids are healers and wanting our healing increased has nothing to do with clerics. Our heals haven't improved since Kunark came out, but everyone's hp have increased drastically. If you don't want to heal, fine, don't heal. No one is forcing you to mem any healing spells. Druids are a multi use class, but one of our main roles is healing, but our old heals just weren't up to par. As for making NT cast faster, I would love to see that change. Of course I would also expect to see clerics get a similar larger, fast casting heal as well. I don't want to be a cleric, but I do want to be a viable healer.

Sir Yakk
08-21-2002, 10:32 AM
Just wondering though....would Nature's Touch be retired to the back of the Spellbook? If this change goes live....I cant really see a use for Nature's Touch. Chloroblast is much faster, and helps for the patch heals. The new 75% heal would dominate for the needed large heals. So.....Nature's Touch is a useless 60 spell?

As a 3.5 k or so HP fully buffed enchanter, what are you going to cast when I've got 2 CT mobs on me?

Hint: You better not say "350 pt heal" or "10 second heal".

A 4-second (post spell haste effects) 1 k heal is just about right. A 10 second (no haste on CHeal-type-spells) 2.6 k heal isn't right.

Oh wow, now we can form crappy druid 75% CH chains? lol give me a break

2 druids can now replace a cleric. /shrug.

I generally support the DG's efforts to improve our lacking class abilities and desirability, but I can't understand this obsession with druids being a pseudo-cleric and not much else that everyone seems to think is so great here. Sorry, but I for one don't want to be pigeonholed into a cleric wanna-be. I want to have the class diversity that I really enjoy in my druid and have a "unique" ability like a super fast efficient heal or new buff/debuff that makes raid leaders take notice.

I agree!

However, buffs/debuffs don't stack well. 50 druids with a debuff is no better than 2 druids with that debuff.

You need something unique and that stacks well.

Like, a 75% of targets (max) HPs damage absorb buff, that fades after 12 to 24 seconds.

Together with weaker spells in the line (50% and 25%), it would solve your grouping and raiding problems, without making you gimped cleric clones.

Just say no to gimped cleric clonage.

stripe bl
08-21-2002, 10:32 AM
"I mean honestly, this is a druid board. What person playing a druid is going to object to getting more useful spells? "

This made me laugh. What druid board have you been reading?

Anyways, glad to see the changes, made, as I am always in favor of abilities getting better.

aanmezz
08-21-2002, 10:34 AM
From the necro boards:

If those changes happen, anyone who lets a cleric into a pickup xp group is a fool.

Keep denying it all you guys want, but this heal spell will lock up your top spot in any 54-59 exp group. But as I said before, that is fine by this enchanter because every zone has about 50 druids in it anyway so the preferred healer will be much more accessible. WOOT!

And can anyone give me a rational explanation for the griping about PoP and everyone porting? So what if people can get to where they want without you? They still can't evac without you or a wizard and wizards don't get CH. I don't understand why this is even a topic being brought up. Can someone elaborate? Is it the cash farming thing?

DigginsEQ
08-21-2002, 10:37 AM
"one of our main roles is healing"

That's a subjective statement and your opinion. Others like me have differing views :) .

If you think this is a great upgrade, knock yourself out! I'm not saying no one should use it or be happy it may happen. It's just that it's not my cup of tea. I was hoping VI would have taken another tangent to improve our healing skills.

AzariahTunare
08-21-2002, 10:39 AM
eqcleric.gameglow.com/for...adid=11084 (http://eqcleric.gameglow.com/forums/showthread.php?s=2775b261a2f963140967e1ebee683c32&threadid=11084)

In case you want to read another 11 pages from the cleric's perspective.

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 10:39 AM
From the necro boards:

If those changes happen, anyone who lets a cleric into a pickup xp group is a fool.

Hahaha, necros talking about grouping.

Firemynd
08-21-2002, 10:41 AM
Diggins, I see what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying, in principle. IMO, reducing the cast time (and perhaps mana cost) on Nature's Touch would be the ideal upgrade for druids, considering we are most often called upon to be backup/spot healers in raiding situations. It would make our "emergency" heals more effective, hence make druids more desirable for raids. However, there is more to the issue than that one desired role.

As it stands right now, one class is absolutely essential to every high-end raid encounter, usually no less than 5 or 6 clerics for an adequate CH chain or the raid is cancelled altogether. However, druids getting a more substantial direct heal, will benefit a vast number of guilds who sometimes find themselves without "enough" clerics.

I've seen many raids where one warrior was enough for MT duty. I've seen many raids where one shaman was enough for slow duty. I've seen many raids where one chanter was enough to handle crowd control. Unfortunately, I've also seen many raids where not even one druid was necessary, not one mage, not one necro, not one bard, not one beastlord, not one shadowknight, not one paladin ....

So can we really consider classes balanced in the high end game if some classes aren't needed at all, while one particular class is needed in volume?

~Firemynd

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 10:42 AM
"one of our main roles is healing"

That's a subjective statement and your opinion. Others like me have differing views

No, that isn't my opinion, that is a fact of game design. Much like saying one of the main roles of a paladin is tanking, one of the main roles of druids is healing. I don't know what game you are playing if you can't see that as a fact.

Firemynd
08-21-2002, 10:44 AM
As a 3.5 k or so HP fully buffed enchanter, what are you going to cast when I've got 2 CT mobs on me?

Hint: You better not say "350 pt heal" or "10 second heal".

LOL good point.

~Firemynd

DigginsEQ
08-21-2002, 10:45 AM
"No, that isn't my opinion, that is a fact of game design. Much like saying one of the main roles of a paladin is tanking, one of the main roles of druids is healing. I don't know what game you are playing if you can't see that as a fact. "

I'm playing EQ lately. How about you? I see healing as one of our abilities, not necessarily a primary one. Maybe I think nuking is more important or debuffing. Get off your high horse lol.

Broomhilda
08-21-2002, 10:46 AM
Why dont you guys apply that logic of being a wannabe Cleric Gimp clone to us wanting to be a wannabe Wizard Gimp clone? Afterall, thats what we are in terms of our nuking, and imo our heals were just balanced out to make us equivalent on the Alteration side of things if this goes live. The disparity between our ability to nuke as opposed to heal was way too one-sided towards Evocation.

I dont want anymore debuffs or buffs unless its a cold debuff, generally those are so boring and all it takes is one person of that class to do it so its not like your making a difference in terms of druids being wanted to a significant degree if we received abilities like that. And trust me, this Ch spell would be much more noticeable than any DoT or whatever Verant could have given us. Did you ever think that Druids *might* be able to be substituted for Clerics to make a raid happen? I didnt, and now its a possiblity. I mean if you want to talk about being desired for raiding, this is probably the best route for them to do it considering raids revolve around CH.

tinsi
08-21-2002, 10:47 AM
"Hahaha, necros talking about grouping."

cool, ok - you take the chanter, I take the necro. Let's all grab some others to gruop with, let's say a shaman, a cleric, a SK and a wizard each, go to seb and after say - 4 hours, let's compare xp and downtime.

ok?

Necros in groups are awsome.

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 10:52 AM
I'm playing EQ lately. How about you? I see healing as one of our abilities, not necessarily a primary one. Maybe I think nuking is more important or debuffing. Get off your high horse lol.

How can healing not be one of our primary roles? We are one of the three healing classes. I never said it was our primary role, you are trying to put words in my mouth to defend your argument. Our primary role can change depending on the group, the raid, and the way we specialize, but that doesn't change the fact that ONE of our main roles is healing.

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 10:56 AM
cool, ok - you take the chanter, I take the necro. Let's all grab some others to gruop with, let's say a shaman, a cleric, a SK and a wizard each, go to seb and after say - 4 hours, let's compare xp and downtime.

I never said they weren't good in groups. It is just so rare to see a good grouping necro now days. Hopefully dot stacking will bring some of them back. But if you want, I'll take a chanter and a group of my choice and go to a zone of my choice and you take the necro and go to seb and we can compare xp at the end of the day. ;)

Fayne Dethe
08-21-2002, 10:57 AM
"I'm also stunned and a little ashamed to hear fellow Druids complain about something that has the potential to be our best upgrade ever."


Um, if you arent critical of anything new added to the game, generally Verant will add it in its least useful form. I wouldnt be suprised right now if the spell caps at 3k or 75% hitpoints (whichever is lower) and does not work with any AA skills or focus items. Such a spell would be very useful for mid 50s level guilds low on clerics, but pretty much useless to a 60 raiding guild for "tier 1 or tier 2" guilds. And with PoP coming, expect more hitpoint mudflation across the board for all types of guilds. I'd like Verant to add a spell that will be useful for all kinds of 54+ druids and still be useful in Planes of Power. That's why I suggest making sure it works with all AA's/focus items and/or change the spell to 66% heal with 5k cap.



Regarding clerics, I think they need to make it so clerics can solo better and that will resolve many complaints. An undead-only tash and undead-only snare would work well towards that - then clerics can effectively fear kite undead and even use their cheap mana pet to help (their pet owns poor boo boo). I already see clerics using Turn Undead (at level 2, level 3 takes too long to cast ;p) soloing some, some new spells like undead snare/tash would help. I'd also fix Turn Undead so level 3 was faster cast time, and that it worked full hitpoint damage on perma-rooted mobs so clerics can have a dot-like manaburn on undead boss mobs.

SilleyEskimo
08-21-2002, 10:59 AM
Hey diggins, how about this?

Our healing is now to Clerics as to what our nuking is to Wizards. Well, not exactely, but close enough.

If a group has a cleric (or shaman), we nuke. If a group has no healer, we are now able to fill that role significantly better than before. All this does is balance us out to be more in line with how we were lvls 1-35ish. We can do whatever role is needed but are not forced into one imparticular. Nothing wrong with that.

And to those of you that don't think this will effect raiding, you're nuts. Spamming 400 pt heals on the MT while Boss MoB_101 quad hits for 450+ is a little redundant. Landing 3k every 10 seconds is just the sort of saftey net the CH roataion needs to get started. Then, switch to nukes! Actually, DoTs, then nukes! Wait... Debuffs, DoTs, then nukes! Dammit, proabbly want to get those DoTs in first... How about, heal MT twice, epic MoB, then WD, med a bit while watching group heals, then refresh DoTs, then nuke at 40%. Yeah, that's better ;)

Fairweather Pure

FyyrLuStorm
08-21-2002, 11:01 AM
Healing IS *one* of our roles.

That is hardly a subjective observation or statement.

50% of Druids say that is thier main role.

DigginsEQ
08-21-2002, 11:07 AM
Talenya,

Let's forget the sparring over whether healing is end all and be all of druiding and address my other concerns eh? I take it Dawntreaders is a raiding guild or no? If you guys are, how will this new upcoming heal make your raids better? Are all your druids ecstatic over this and can't wait to form CH chains as one of their primary roles? And the BIG question: Will you want a lot more druids in your guild if this 75% CH goes live? Maybe I'm wrong, but one of the big motivations I've seen here behind this heal is to increase our chances to get into Ye Local Uber Guild.

vowelumos
08-21-2002, 11:08 AM
Fairwether,
I think you ran out of spell slots :)

tinsi
08-21-2002, 11:13 AM
"But if you want, I'll take a chanter and a group of my choice and go to a zone of my choice and you take the necro and go to seb and we can compare xp at the end of the day."

/grin
Nice try! :P With such cunning you could almost pass as a hobbit.

Malarix
08-21-2002, 11:17 AM
But if you want, I'll take a chanter and a group of my choice and go to a zone of my choice and you take the necro and go to seb and we can compare xp at the end of the day.

Quite frankly a solo necro would wrack in more xp than both groups so I miss the point. =d

Fayne Dethe
08-21-2002, 11:19 AM
Nice input there Malarix. Real contribution and insightful input. I dont know what we would do without such brilliant retorts. Did you even bother to read any of the reasons why people were suggesting some changes to the spell? I think not, also try coming back once you are 60 and seen the high-end game and the lack of usefulness the spell will have on it if the spell is too restricted.

Aluaeia
08-21-2002, 11:20 AM
It'd be a nice spell, I don't care if it's 54 or 55 though as long as I get to scribe it. :) 55 would make it a nice goal for people struggling with the 54 hell anyways (like booboo was for me, but I'm slightly crazy), but not 60. I probably wouldn't mind it being 56 or 57 even, but 55 would be better.

And this also makes me not consider re-specializing from the alteration that I've had since 30 to evocation.

Also, like someone else said, clerics get CH at 39, THAT'S too low as far as horrifically unbalancing spells go (not bashing clerics, but anyone with a whit of sense can see that the very existence of CH completely changes game mechanics)

As far as complaints go, I didn't feel like reading all 10 pages of angry clerics and druids bantering, so I'll just summarize and add my opinion

Cleric says "but now druids will be more desired in groups than me"

OMG, wow, you'll have to go /lfg for more than 5 minutes, like someone else said, I've spent more time /lfg than actually grouped.

Cleric says "but now I won't be able to get groups, and I can't solo"

Sounds like a warrior friend of mine, most of his groups are 'pity' groups with friends (kind of like me), the monk tanks and he just adds a bit of dps.

I do think though that clerics should get some sort of improvement in terms of solo or utility ability (ports would be the most entertaining from my point of view), undead only snare and slow would definitely be a reasonable upgrade, and upgraded undead DD would be good also. IMO Judgement is already pretty nice, but a slight upgrade at level 60 wouldn't be too bad.

Gift3 + Adept3 + 10% Healing penalty removal + Improved Healing Focus Item = Good enough.

You're nuts sir. It shouldn't take a halfling full of AA and focus items to make us "good enough" healers.

re: agro issues

Whoop-de-do, I already tank things better than about 30% of clerics out there, bar DA/DB. Symbol me and we can up that to about 45%. It will still have some possible drawbacks on raids, but honestly, do you really think that CH-level agro > RSD or slow agro? And even if it is more agro; so we get eaten 10% more often, oh well.

reagent cost for the spell?

Eww... just... Eww...

Oh yeah, and Sobe's logical reasoning is the best I've seen so far.

I'm probably missing something since halfway through this post I went to eat lunch and 3 more pages showed up.

Feather Silverthorn
08-21-2002, 11:22 AM
Healing is one of your roles.

What other roles can a druid fill?

How long does it take you to see that seblis is camped, then go to Velks and check there. What can you do with ease if a blue named walks by you while you travel?

If you are a cleric ask yourself the same questions?

What do clerics do in any group? What else do they do besides that?

How do they get from place to place. How do they kill the green that aggros them while moving from place to place. How much money do clerics spend when someone gets dispelled. How much money do druids spend when a charecter gets debuffed.

Maybe just maybe, despite having the lock down on groups for so long clerics are deserving some utility. How many druids say I could never be a cleric.

Guess what. If the clerics all quit do you know what role you will have with the new heal spell? the spell that is 1000 points better than the shamans.

(Yep you guessed it. )

Druids will be the new cleric. So shut up, sit down, and heal.

Do you want that?

Snoww Silverhammer Bashy bear E marr

frisleafshadow
08-21-2002, 11:25 AM
Hi druids

Let me say that I am very happy about this change for you guys, and even more so for us clerics since 1) pressure relief on raids 2) must get versatility in compensation!

I shudder to think what encounters in POP might be though with more CHtype spells going in the game though!!!

Fear the quadding/flurrying for 3000hp a pop mobs where you have to have several CH/quasi CH chains going at once to survive.

What do you druids think is good compensation for clerics?

75% slow?

75% snare?

75% teleports?

75% magic debuff/fire debuff?

75% invis?

75% SoW?

75% DoTs?

75% haste?

75% pets?

Obviously some combination of the above would be good. Probably undead only versions or to temple only or some such stuff.

Just wondering what you guys think.

Adon
Venerable High Priest of Tunare and Rodcet Nife


how about

75% of the raid force? how many clerics are on raids, how many druids are on raids?

tinsi
08-21-2002, 11:25 AM
"Quite frankly a solo necro would wrack in more xp than both groups so I miss the point. =d"

Probably, yes. But soloing is oooooh soooo mindnumbingly booooooring. And from the necromancers I know, most share that perspective - soloing is something to do when you can't get a group, or don't want a group (i.e. nice to be able to go afk a lot if kids are around etc.)

And mind wrack and group heal are, in addition to necro CC, too sweet to give up, not to mention TWO necroes in a caster heavy group against mobs with mana. /drool endless mana.

FyyrLuStorm
08-21-2002, 11:39 AM
RE: Clerics not getting groups...

Send me an email if your cleric is for sale, addy is in my profile.

Will make fair offer, even if a ninja looter, loot whore, gates during raids, I don't care.

I want to learn what NOT getting a group is all about, first hand.

tetrian corbec
08-21-2002, 11:44 AM
Yeah, sure you can have 75% of booboo - as long as you dont get any funny ideas like making a nice steak out of him.

Ntropy Reverser
08-21-2002, 11:47 AM
Out of curiosity, has this spell been found on the Test Server? Wondering if it will be Mob Dropped, vender sold, ect.. or even if its currently in game at all.

I'm excited that our healing abilities are getting looked at, and hope some form of this spell makes it live. :)


Venerable Ntropy Reverser
Druid of 60 Seasons
<Valorguard> - The Nameless

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 11:47 AM
Quite frankly a solo necro would wrack in more xp than both groups so I miss the point. =d

You really believe that? My group would be me, the chanter, a bard, a cleric, and two wizards. :p

Tolanin
08-21-2002, 11:56 AM
No actually soloing is what you do when you want exp... when you want to fart around for 6 hours to get an aa point you join a group..

Dont hold your breath on this spell being anything other than lv 60 because it wont be.. its only 54 on test because they want to test it and there arent to many lv 60s on test... this is a great spell and will help druids on there rolls in raids...... and in exp groups though why anyone would want to join one is beyond me =/.... to say CH is overpowered at lvl 39 right now is true but in the original context that it was added it was not overpowered at that lvl... for clerics who say you need more now i partially agree you shold be able to solo and invis yourselves... but you were/are the most overpowered class for a long time and that will prolly reflect itself is any abilitys you get

Exedor
08-21-2002, 11:56 AM
This is a great sign that they are really putting an effort into fixing things.

I feel though that they need to either remove the 75 % cap OR raise the total amount healed in order to make this spell a real fix to the brokeness of healers. Either way is fine. But I'd prefer the straight 3 k heal to a 75 % ch capped at 10k.

Shamans dont need a healing upgrade at all, they have slow and torpor. If they share this with shamans then they ought to make nature's recovery heal the same amount over 24 secs rather than 3 mins.

Clerics=REQUIRED Shamans=REQUIRED Druids=NOT REQUIRED.
Verant needs to take a stand and look at how FAR FAR less desired the unrequired druid class is than the other priest classes in both raiding AND grouping environments and fix the class who is broken without upgrading the overpowered ones to prevent whining.


>>>Seriously though, if this goes live, the druid class will go from "powerful and versatile" to "godly".

What planet are you from man? I have a 60 druid and 59 cleric, do you? CH owns EVERYTHING a druid can do COMBINED and that's a fact. So does slow/torpor/cann/haste. Druids are versatile in a way which is nice when you duo low hitting mobs but a shaman is far more versatile in ways that count, including that duo.

To make your statement reflect the reality that I (and every druid I've discussed it with IN GAME) have experienced in playing this game since beta in 1998 and having 50 + chars in many classes, reword the end to 'from "strongly undesired and totally un-needed" to "tolerably desired but still un-needed"'.

elgadol
08-21-2002, 12:02 PM
I will have to try it before I can say what I think. But I know from past experience that it will most likely help me in XP groups.
85% of my EQ life is spent in groups that consist of usually this: a pally, a mage, a monk, a bard and me, or some mix there of. Swap out a warrior for the monk, a wizzard for the mage, etc.
The reason for that is, there is almost NEVER an enchanter or a cleric around looking for groups where I hunt.
So, we make do, we root off mobs instead of mez, and I play healer/snarer/free dotter. This heal will help me out immensely.
Would I like to group with a cleric? YES!!!!
I'd love to play in nothing but fun and balanced groups all day long. But I make do with what I have cos that isnt possible. And this spell will help me do that as a lvl 56 druid that doesnt have oober gear and hates to solo.
Thanks

Talyena Trueheart
08-21-2002, 12:03 PM
If you guys are, how will this new upcoming heal make your raids better?

Raiding won't depend totally on the cleric count that night. We would still need clerics for the rotation, but a druid would actually be able to backup heal much better.

Are all your druids ecstatic over this and can't wait to form CH chains as one of their primary roles?

Don't know, haven't logged on yet today, but I will bet most are quite happy. What I don't think you will see is druids in the rotation though. Maybe on an easier mob, but I believe most of our warriors are over 6khp with raid buffs which would mean 3 druids to replace one cleric.

And the BIG question: Will you want a lot more druids in your guild if this 75% CH goes live? Maybe I'm wrong, but one of the big motivations I've seen here behind this heal is to increase our chances to get into Ye Local Uber Guild.

We are recruiting druids right now, but we haven't added one in a while. It takes quite a while to go from an app to a member. Best case is usually two to three months and that is with apps that attend every raid and are quite good. Heck, it often takes a month or two just to become an official app, so getting into the guild can take well over three months.

Remi
08-21-2002, 12:09 PM
Only was able to read 3 pages of this thread so far but have to run, so putting in my 2 coppers...

This is an exciting proposal but I'm really hesitant to be more relied on for healing than I already am for back up healing. We already have enough agro issues than to add a 3k heal to the agro list. It sorta begs the question of while I'm casting this 10 second spell, who's going to be back up healing the others in the group?

Who's gonna cast that fast chlory so the tank doesn't die before CH hits? Who's going to heal the Chanter or Shammy or even the cleric while I'm 10 second healing someone? For mana efficiency, I have to wait til someone is at 1/4 life before healing them - is that enough hp left to wait 10 seconds for a heal? Maybe on the tanks, but not on the casters if they still have agro.

This spell has the potential for dramatically changing the way we currently back up heal. I'm worried about those changes, but it may be just that I'm not yet able to *see* how well this new spell might work.

At this point, for raiding and for discussion purposes, I'd still prefer a group heal.

AladainAF
08-21-2002, 12:14 PM
Whats it take to please this class?

I predict in about 6 months, after all of this has gone live, we're going to hear how its not fair that druids cant nuke, and they will get a 75% manaburn, capped at 4000dmg. Seriously.

On a serious note, druids, I'm a cleric and I really dont like some aspects of these changes. I think druids need something UNIQUE that makes them original and needed, not just filling the role. So many of you have commented that you want ONE thing to excel in, yet you sure seem happy to still be the second best healer. You guys have no consistency on exactly what you want. You are quite blessed you get VI here a lot to listen to you. I've been a member at eqcleric for almost 2 years now, and I've seen Verant post there three times. Once about the nuke changes, once about this what were dealing with today, and once from Absor, to which he said "I dont visit here often because I dont have anything to tell you". During the fan faire, clerics were told in reference to ragefire to "Just let it go".

Clerics are upset not at druids, though you are feeling the brunt of it from many classes, not just clerics. Why ? It seems that every single time a druid whines, or petitions for something, you get it. No other class has near that kind of power. Clerics have asked for the simplest thing for AGES - Invis - Always told No. We've begged and begged for ragefire to be fixed in Sol B. What did they do ? They made it WORSE. Magicians thought Isle 7 in POA was rediculous. It kinda is, in comparison. No change. Necros have been asking for DoT stacking for ages, Verant FINALLY is working on it. Necros have been asking for a change to their epic, and all they get is "Sorry, the image file is full". Enchanters are broken on some raid-level encounters. I guarantee you a druid is 10x more useful doing soemthing like halls of testing in ToV than an enchanter is. Warriors have been asking for more DPS (Monk, Ranger, Rogue >>> Warrior), and it falls on deaf ears.

Druids asked verant to fix the VS epic part to remove bitterness and contention because the spawn was fought over. GRANTED and viewed as a slap in the face to clerics. VS was never nearly as contested, or fought for, or generated hate and angst amoungst players as ragefire does. Druids asked for the healing penalty to be removed. GRANTED - personally i have no problem here. Druids asked for a DL type heal and a Remedy type heal. GRANTED - i have no problem here - it finally put you in your spot imo in reguards to healing. Druids asked for Root and Snare to be fixed. GRANTED. Druids asked for CH or something close and it looks like you might be getting it (When was the last time a spell was put on test that didnt make it live?).

Do you see why so many people get upset over druids? Not saying its all your fault, but it seems, at least to me, that everything you ask for at one time gets granted. Its not just clerics that seem to notice it.

Aladain

AladainAF
08-21-2002, 12:18 PM
We already have enough agro issues than to add a 3k heal to the agro list. It sorta begs the question of while I'm casting this 10 second spell, who's going to be back up healing the others in the group?

Who's gonna cast that fast chlory so the tank doesn't die before CH hits? Who's going to heal the Chanter or Shammy or even the cleric while I'm 10 second healing someone?

Remi,

BRILLIANT post IMO.

The answer to your questions is: A Druid.

Aladain

Aaeamdar
08-21-2002, 12:20 PM
This is not a spell that puts Druids in the CH rotation. This is a spell that lets Druids get a better mana ratio than CB/NT on heals greater then 1.2K and allows Druids to have better HPS on a group sustaining AE damage. It is still not going to keep up any sort of effeciency on AE unless you have a wall to hide behind, since it is going to take at least 1 minute to cast this spell on each group member, but it will be nice when you have a wall and have 2-3 melee sustaining AE Damage in your group or to cast on Melee that run behind the wall and ask for a heal.

Malarix
08-21-2002, 12:22 PM
[EDIT: All right, enought is enough. And yes we do play other characters as mains, so quit your flaming.]

Grolmn
08-21-2002, 12:23 PM
I predict in about 6 months, after all of this has gone live, we're going to hear how its not fair that druids cant nuke, and they will get a 75% manaburn, capped at 4000dmg. Seriously.

ROFL!

Oh no. A class voiced an opinion and got something nice. How unfair! Can't anyone just be happy for another class that they got some improvements? Geez!

And no, I don't want Manaburn. Not in the official druid petition of things we would like to see. Pretty much I think druids nuke fine.

Grolmn
08-21-2002, 12:28 PM
Druids are too wrapped up in the fact that THEY aren't BETTER than another class in a area that THAT class is supposed to be the best. They whine, and whine, and quite frankly have been given what they wanted but does it satisfy them? No they whine more, they want this, they want that, they get it and aren't happy with it.

Most druids are not at all concerned about not being better, most of our complaints come from being so far behind in the skills we are supposed to backup.

So far most are excited to see this change on test. The whining in this thread is mainly coming from necros and clerics who like trolling the druid board. To suggest a change to something on test is not whining, it is feedback. That is part of the reason we have boards like this.

koolkatz
08-21-2002, 12:30 PM
Sorry if anyone has said this before, I haven't had time to sift through all 13 pages.

In my opinion though, they gave shamans group regen and group SOW, I don't see why we can't get a torpor-like spell. And honestly, that would solve a lot of the high end druid healing problems without endangering clerics--their niche is far too narrow anyways. I don't want CH or something like it, I don't want to able to replace clerics, I just want to be able to keep more than 3 or 4 people alive against the Arch Lich or one of the other mobs with nasty AOE's.

Something along the lines of 500 mana for a 1600 point heal over time in 4 ticks (with no slow component unlike torpor, and no cleansing component unlike celestial elixir) wouldn't be unbalancing and would let us do backup healing much more effectively.

Of course, I won't cry if this spell goes in either ;)

Kattibrie Puppypaws
The Seventh Hammer

FyyrLuStorm
08-21-2002, 12:33 PM
"who's going to be back up healing the others in the group"

Paladins.

I already get a pally in my group, when I want to nuke.



This one spell is going to boost the worth of pallys like 5 fold. They know it too.

AladainAF
08-21-2002, 12:39 PM
Grolmn,

First off, I'll be honest I didnt mean to say Seriously at the end of that manaburn comment - I meant to say just kidding. I was thinking ahead to the next paragraph which I said "On a more serious note", meaning I was joking about manaburn.

HOWEVER

A class voiced an opinion and got something nice. How unfair! Can't anyone just be happy for another class that they got some improvements?

Did you read my post? I commented in a few places that I think some druid upgrades in the past were really nice. The difference is I distinctly remember reading here when the debate over Chrolo and NT was nbeing done, and druids said "This will fix us for healing!!!", and IMO, it DID, but I should have known better. Clerics have always had a running joke -- in good jest -- that Druids will be asking for Rez and CH sometime in the future. *Shrug* I guess you should watch what ya joke for ;)

And no, I don't want Manaburn. Not in the official druid petition of things we would like to see. Pretty much I think druids nuke fine.

See, thats the problem. Guess what? A lot of druids think you heal fine too. A lot of druids replace me. You seem to have it in your head that its impossible for a cleric to be replaced in an exp group but its totally possible. Last night, I grouped my 59 rogue with a 60 druid as a main healer in the sewers of cazic thule. He was busy, yes, but he still kicked butt and did the job right and kept us alive quite well too i might add.

Aladain

Fayne Dethe
08-21-2002, 12:39 PM
Quote:
"Druids asked verant to fix the VS epic part to remove bitterness and contention because the spawn was fought over. GRANTED and viewed as a slap in the face to clerics. VS was never nearly as contested, or fought for, or generated hate and angst amoungst players as ragefire does. Druids asked for the healing penalty to be removed. GRANTED - personally i have no problem here. Druids asked for a DL type heal and a Remedy type heal. GRANTED - i have no problem here - it finally put you in your spot imo in reguards to healing. Druids asked for Root and Snare to be fixed. GRANTED. Druids asked for CH or something close and it looks like you might be getting it (When was the last time a spell was put on test that didnt make it live?)."



First of all root and snaring wasnt a druid fix, it helped every single class - remember when a mob rooted you and got rid of all your movement spells or if you as a cleric rooted a mob then snare would poof and mob would run away? Also, root for druids was completely BUGGED with its damage component - this was a bug fix not an addition to druid class. The change to dots and dot stacking is far more a boon to necros/shamans than druids who only have 1 single Dot worth mentioning. Remedy/DL type heals - um do you remember how much a joke any other class healing was in Kunark, this I viewed as more of an oversight to not giving other classes remedy/DL to begin with, and now with hitpoints of tanks reaching 7000-7500+ and casters 4000-5000+ on raids, both DL and remedy are jokes for healing in today's expansions and upcoming PoP. Druid epic - the druid epic has absolutely ZERO relevance on high end raiding while cleric epic is absolutely essential, that is why Verant is so stingy with it although I think Ragefire is totally stupid in its current implementation. The removal of the heal penalty - this was a totally outdated concept put in place pre-Kunark when CH wasnt used and Verant needed a method to differentiate healing - again, this wasnt druid specific but helped hybrids, shamans, and druids. And if you look at all these changes, they still dont give a druid a real role on a raid, you can still easily get by with 0 druids there. Clerics have been and always will be absolutely essential to raiding (same with shamans the other priest class, albiet not quite absolutely necessary). That said, I really think clerics need new spells that help them solo for their AA xp.


Now will this new druid/shaman "CH" make any difference? I dont see it really helping much at all in its current form on high end raids but it will be useful in areas like Kael arena, HoT, etc. I'd prefer a group heal which would allow druids to heal their groups and still nuke.

Exedor
08-21-2002, 12:41 PM
Clueless bitter necro said:
>>:D O ANY of you play a MAIN character other than a druid? Obviously not.

No but I have alts higher than your main =p

AladainAF
08-21-2002, 12:45 PM
In my opinion though, they gave shamans group regen and group SOW, I don't see why we can't get a torpor-like spell.

I think (thought I might be wrong) Shaman are the original masters of SoW. That is why they get it one spell-rank earlier than druids. The fact you got a group version first was very likely a mistake. Dunno about regen, though.