View Full Forums : Shaman Healing


corlathist
07-18-2002, 03:52 AM
From the Administration:
If this Post gets out of hand, (spider sense tingling) it will be locked down. If Trolls attack it (not you Shaman Troll people joo gonna be zok) you will just be deleted.. so don't waste your time.

On with the conversation...
<hr>

I watch everyone talk about druid healing vs cleric healing and say "upgrade druids (amount varies) and give clerics some utility/solo abilities.

Then they make the ultimate mistake they say "give shaman" more of a direct heal as well. ((Whatever you give the druid))

First, Shamans do NOT NOT NOT need any additional healing. Shamans Mana regen is so incredible you would be amazed.

I two box 60 Druid and 57 Shaman. My usual tank is a 59 Monk. I will tell you for a fact 75% of the healing is done by the shaman.

Never ever underestimate, mana regen in class balance.

Shaman's Mana Regen is more than double a druids.
Which means even if Druid had heals twice as strong as a shaman. A shaman would be able to outheal them over a period of time.

a 2500 Point Direct Heal for a shaman would be insane.
Cann 5, Direct Heal, full health and almost full mana.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-18-2002, 04:05 AM
ROFL.

ANd joo do know dat dere are shammies owt dere dat self buffed can't do Canni 5, becauz it takes too many HPs? Joo also realize dat Canni 5 is an AA skil and not a spell rite?

Joo make me wanna laff.

In da group wit no mana regen meez turn into: Haste, Buff, Slow, Heal central. With 2 tanks castin daHoS (and on yerself az well), its taking HALF meez bar of mana just to cast HoS, and dats WITH my wis gear on. It doesn't include de udder buffs dat tankies get (AGI/STAM) and doze go onto da casterz as well (Adds AC and HPs). Den Factor in Regrowth on da Shammy, and Haste on da tanks Ebery 7 mins or so, and Healing on top, and joo hab ALOT of mana goin tru da shammy. Most of it in BUFFS.

Dere are ALOT of times dat meez cant keep up in da expin group, if eberyting goes well, yep, tings are fine, get more den a single pull and thingz start to drain me ...FAST.

Oh, and meez hab a FUNGI tunic. Shammys wet dream. And alot of timez mez STILL goin OOM.

Nice try wit de "US Vs. THEM" mentality.

Druidz want da tweakin on da raidz, meez cool wit dat, but meez sayin and udder druidz do too, dat in da exp grindin dere are more camps you can do WITH a druid az da main healer, den joo can do witout da druid az da main healer.

"Boo Hoo! I can't keep my group alive in SSRAA temple doing a high level exp grind, but a clerik could!"
"Ummm, but you can go to Seb, Chardok, ME, FG, Acrylia, KC, HS and heal a group fine"
"But I want to exp in ssraa" /stamps foot

Uh huh.

Broomhilda
07-18-2002, 05:23 AM
I dont get it either. I wrote a post here yesterday talking about how stupid the whole idea of giving one priest class something usually means giving all priest classes the same thing. It makes some sense if every class were equally balanced in relation to one another, but theyre obviously not. Then again, its a lazy way of throwing all the classes something so nobody gets upset somebody else got upgraded and they didnt. Does nothing for overall class balance though, which is the REAL issue. With this way of doing things, no wonder the games so screwed up.

When we write a petition talking about how DRUIDIC abilities have been watered down citing specific facts, all Priest classes get upgrades? WTF? How do druids here even rationalize that?

Like i said before, Shamans are fine, more capable healers than clerics in most situations, and add more value to a group. Have no idea why Clerics are whining over Druids keeping them from groups, when Shamans have a much easier time making you obsolete. If you say otherwise, your either a Shaman, or have never grouped with a 60 Shaman. A 60 Druid comes nowhere close to that power.

Oh well, lets wait and see. Personally, i'm hoping Verant has some sense of reality, and gives Druids a heal upgrade or something that may allow them to heal in the form of damage mitigation. While they should allow Clerics the ability to solo better since alot of clerics issues seem to be from an overflow of clerics, and them being so reliant on groups. Those are the only 2 priest classes that really 'need' anything.

Thats as far as the c

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-18-2002, 05:28 AM
"Boo Hoo! I can't keep my group alive in SSRAA temple doing a high level exp grind, but a clerik could!"
"Ummm, but you can go to Seb, Chardok, ME, FG, Acrylia, KC, HS and heal a group fine"
"But I want to exp in ssraa" /stamps foot

The major reason why we would rather XP in Ssrae or CT or the likes is because at high end, Seb, Chardok, ME, FG, Acrylia, KC, and HS are so freaking easy we might as well just go to bed. We enjoy hunting in those zones which actually require us to be on our toes. And yes, we want to be able to XP in good XP zones. Nowhere did I read in the zone descriptions that Ssra and CT and the like were for shaman and clerics only.

Now, if we're talking about Druids who aren't in ToV armor, etc...guess what, they'll be having the same difficulties we complain about in CT etc, but in Velks, HS, etc.

Cassea
07-18-2002, 05:29 AM
I think it stems from the fact that most Druids do not want to appear "greedy" and only ask for things for themselves.

We have been blasted for so long as god-like greedy phat lewt Droods that we bend over backwards to not appear so.

Shamen prob do not need as much of an upgrade or dare I say no upgrade at all due to the VERY powereful slow that they get as well as "real" pets - at least at mid level but I would not get upset if Verant bumped up their healing as long as we got the same or better.

corlathist
07-18-2002, 05:33 AM
You missed my point and comment.

I am dual boxing. I am playing a shaman. I cast HOS and all the hastes etc. I slow etc.

I'm also only 57. ((so no cann 5 yet, heck no cann 4. Im using Can 3))

I'm still doing far more healing while buffs, & slowing in an XP group with the shaman, then I am with the druid.

Keep in mind other classes have buffs to keep up too.
Im refreshing Thorns and Haste about the same time span.

I used Cann 5 as the extreme example. Reading somewhere that Cann 5 + Torpor = 51 FT or so.

All, I'm saying in essence is you can't say
Cleric = #1 Healer
Shaman/Druid = #2 Healer - Tied so give same spell.

That wouldn't be a tie. Shaman's mana regen would mean they could cast the same healing spell so many more times that they'd outpace and break the tie.

My guess is if you gave shamans a 2500 direct heal
for 400 mana. You wouldnt ever need a cleric.
This is gut instinct because a shaman would be able to come up with 800 mana (2 casts) to match the cleric's 1 cast easily.

Cannabilize is what makes a shaman in my opinion the most powerful class in eq.

Hell, I can outnuke my 60 Druid Moonfire. with 54 Shaman nuke by same theory. 2 Shaman 54 Nukes > 1 Moonfire. And again, I can come up with twice as much mana to spend.

A shaman in nuke mode can outnuke any class, except maybe a Wizard against a mob. Thier only drawback being only cold based dd.

Balance is more than just numbers of heal.
It's also how much mana regen you have to be able to cast the heal how many times.

Keep in mind, I play and enjoy both. I know what kind of power my shaman packs. More than my druid.

Every zone a Druid can play main healer in. A shaman would play it better. ((NT/Chloroblast have same ratio))

Many of the above come with a requisite of slow. Shaman can slow.

Broomhilda
07-18-2002, 05:49 AM
I completely agree Corlathist, its just so evident in my experiences with high lvl Shamans in what they bring to the table. I dont have a Shaman alt, but i do group with Shaman regularly, know 2 high lvl Shaman i end up in groups with pretty often but i guess they are 'special' because they both have Torpor.

Also, my personal experiences make me feel strongly about this. I know for a fact Shamans are picked over me as a 'secondary priest' class or even primary healer everytime. I experience this way too often to say its just a fluke. What people dont realize is the whole idea behind getting groups comes down to class perceptions. Shamans are perceived as Gods, and justifiably so, especially in group situations.

Heh, alot of Druids here seem to have Shaman alts or even some as mains now. Every one of them seem to tell it like it is of just how powerful they are. I dont think i've read any of them talking about how underpowered they are.

Broomhilda
07-18-2002, 05:56 AM
Lemme add, i'm not saying to nerf Shamans. I'm saying Shamans dont need any upgrades when alot of people seem to be assuming they should get what we get.

Theres a big difference :P

Oldoaktree
07-18-2002, 08:18 AM
First on the Cani thing..

If you can't Cani V, you can still Cani III or IV. No rational person should be arguing that Cani and the mana regen that comes with it is not a huge deal. Neither of the other two priest classes can regen mana at anything approaching the rate of a shaman.

That said, I actually do believe shamans need a bigger direct heal than Chloroblast. The in group limitation on Torpor is the only one I actually care about. The slow and stuff? Pshaw. That is irrelevant. In an exp group Torpor tends to be cast between fights while pulls are coming in. It is definitely workable. I do agree though that the spell is relatively rare and expensive.

So give shaman a direct heal like NT...hell give them NT. With their selection of healing options, they still will be very strong. And NT will help them contribute more as helper healers on raids than they currently can.

Nothing they would get would be better than Torpor which has great efficiency. They would still use Torpor most of the time.

But that said...this is a druid board and I play a druid. I don't work for Verant. I don't have to make suggestions for the Shaman class. That is what they should be doing, on their boards.

Grizlor
07-18-2002, 08:19 AM
2500hp for 400 mana

So a spell that heals more than twice the health as torpor, INSTANTLY, with no ill effects, castable out of the group, and available on a vendor instead of Phara_Dar'sCorpse582340 finally...

...for only twice the mana.

*cough*

Oldoaktree
07-18-2002, 08:27 AM
Profoundly doubt that the spell would get in at a 350 mana cost.

It of course would be fantastic if it would but honestly I don't see it costing anything less than 400 or 500...even IF such a spell gets in the game.

Broomhilda
07-18-2002, 08:35 AM
"So a spell that heals more than twice the health as torpor, INSTANTLY, with no ill effects, castable out of the group, and available on a vendor instead of Phara_Dar'sCorpse582340 finally...

...for only twice the mana.

*cough* "



First of all, i'm not even in agreement of us gettinig this. I'd rather get a group heal, or HoT.

More importantly we have no form of damage mitigation like you have with slow. Slow obviously being one of the most powerful abilities in the game, especially complementing the ability to heal well. So as you can see, we're not the ones that can fully support a group by ourself. We cant haste the melee, Torpor one melee while the rest pound on a 70% slowed mob, and Canni all the mana we just lost back, then regain the health with regens. Only you Godly Shamans can do that, not even clerics can support groups as well as you can, and they have arguably the most powerful abililty in the game in CH. Then again Slow ranks right up there.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-18-2002, 09:05 AM
Dis sums up meez argument. Sumwun sed it on da shammy board...a Druid no less.

"If you give us a way to make a significant dent on a Raid Buffed tank, it unbalances Exp groupage"

And too bad, deel wit de fakt dat joo aint as useless as all joo saying joo are. Lots of exp groups I hab been in hab had a druiz az a slower and all da way to 59. (Meez bard is 59).

Adruid says " yes I can exp in groups and be main healer all the way to 60, not as good as a cleric, but its done all the time"
Adruid2 says "Yep me too."
Abard says "Our main healer in a group at 60 is a druid"
Broomhilda says "Thats not been my experience"

Not to single you out, but dat wuz jer comment. Mebbe its not da spells dat joo hab? Mebbe its da way YOU are using dem?

And wuts wit dis GOD shammy complex joo hab? Sheesh. If meez eber seen a a case of penis envy....WOW. Joo hab it sister.

Grizlor
07-18-2002, 09:22 AM
I would say 90% of the shamans you're competing with for groups do NOT have torpor. thus, they can regen themselves and get an effective 8 or so more HP a tick than you...

don't forget, that after I cast that 250 mana slow spell on a mob that's going to live maybe 30 seconds, I can't even sit down for a while usually, thanks to the ridiculous agro they generate... Cannibalize's best effect is it allows you a little mana intake while waiting to sit down again after slowing...

In cazic thule for instance... you'll see something like

Tank tells the group 'yo I got one o dem spiders incoming'
You begin casting turgur's insects.
A frenzied jungle spider resisted your turgur's insects spell!
You begin casting Malosini.
A frenzied jungle spider resisted your malosini spell!
A frenzied jungle spider bites YOU for 160 points of damage!
A frenzied jungle spider bites YOU for 110 points of damage!
A frenzied jungle spider kicks YOU for 85 points of damage!
You tell the group, 'F%#&'
you begin casting Turgur's insects
A frenzied jungle spider bites YOU for 90 points of damage!
A frenzied jungle spider bites YOU for 160 points of damage!
A frenzied jungle spider kicks YOU for 60 points of damage!
You regain concentration and continue casting.
A frenzied jungle spider yawns
Tank tells the group, 'yay. now if only I could taunt it!'


Hooray wheres all that health I can cannibalize now? :P I usually will end up just chloroblasting myself or something... net gain of a little mana after specialize factors in.

Broomhilda
07-18-2002, 09:52 AM
Once you slow a mob, your not taking nearly that damage in an exp group no less. You guys even hold up better than Druids do, and your telling me you get pounded like that after every slow in an exp group? Please. Hmm, i wonder what the pause intervals are between those hits when its slowed by 70%.

I agree that not every Shaman has Torpor, and thats something i'll side with you on. However, i will state that even w/o Torpor your heals are equivalent to ours. You have to realize NT is Chloroblast x's 2. Its practically the same mana efficiency. So the <lvl 60 Shamans can still pretty much heal at the same rate Druids can at lvl 60. And you still have the benefit of mitigating damage better than we ever could with Slow.

I dont get beat out of exp groups by only lvl 60 Shamans. Its just a perception that many other classes have of how well you complement them as opposed to maybe Druids. If you can be unbiased about it, take a good look at how much slow trivializes encounters and why a group would pick a Shaman over a Druid in most cases. Feel free to go to a melee board and pose the question of who they'd rather have in their group :)

Grizlor
07-18-2002, 10:11 AM
I'm trying to say, if slow resists and I get agro, I'm ufcked, not just the tank :P

I have around 1017ac with gear that reflects a desire to have AC and HP at the EXCLUSION of wisdom... you get beaten around a lot as a shaman ;)

Certain mobs (As you may know) are also flagged unslowable. Suddenly I'm in the same boat as you, spamming chloroblast... only thing that's on my side then is specialize alteration :)

Graal the Dorf
07-18-2002, 10:20 AM
My wife plays a 60 shaman, which I occasionally bot. I can say with confidence that shamans can generally play main healer in most groups quite adequately. On mobs that are immune to slow, druids will heal better. Of course, not many people xp by fighting unslowable mobs.

I am of the opinion that shaman healing is just about right the way it is. They could use a slightly better direct heal at 59-60, but they can get by without it. Say 700 hp for 320 mana with an appropriate cast time. That is the same ratio as chloroblast and NT. The only real benefit this would have is to allow them to manadump heals a little faster.

There are at least 3 shamans on my server that have been "/trade WTB torpor, willing to empty my bank account" for the last few months. My wife has been trying for over 4 months now to buy it, and we have spent time farming the emperor in seb and killed too many guardian wurms in SF to count. It really only comes off of kunark dragons, a couple of velious dragons like sontelak, and from VP.


Torpor shouldn't even be included in balance discussions unless you are talking about high end raid situations.

Varaho1
07-18-2002, 02:31 PM
An shot in the dark here but why not?

Clerics are valued as healers because they Have the best healing spells.

Shammen make excellent healers because their slow spells result in less healing.

So instead of doing a major overhaul with healing why not just tweak it a bit and allow druids to noticeably increase other classes DPS? You know when a mob dies faster then you do not need to heal as much type thing.

Heck if they did it right it might even become a druids own little class niche.

Firemynd
07-18-2002, 11:31 PM
" So instead of doing a major overhaul with healing why not just tweak it a bit and allow druids to noticeably increase other classes DPS? You know when a mob dies faster then you do not need to heal as much type thing. "

Tons of druids would agree, but the problem is trying to come up with an idea for such an ability given the game's mechanics. The vast majority of EQ encounters have been designed so there's only one reliable way to increase raw DPS: haste. If you gave druids that ability in any form you'd be stomping all over the chanter's flower garden (even their epic effect is haste), and to a lesser but significant degree, stepping on shaman toes as well.

Druid's method for increasing damage output "so the mob dies faster" was originally supposed to be our damage shields, but mages were given better DS (theirs comes with added resistance too). Even so, factor in the sheer number of hp mobs have after 50th level -- the increase in damage to the mob by our best thorn shield simply doesn't add up quickly enough to decrease healing needs by more than 1 to 2%. And remember that it's going to cost mana to reapply that DS every couple of fights.

Sad fact is, during most of the game's evolution, Verant held back on druid improvements for fear of overpowering the class. Eventually it just became an unspoken rule that giving any real enhancements to druids was just plain taboo.

Verant COULD have been creative by evolving druid DS lines beyond standard damage/hit.

They might have created damage shields that proc'd various effects -- such as having poisoned thorns break off into the mob and acting as a debuffer (bleeding profusely lowers stamina = decreases hp), or reduces ATK, etc.

Or even more innovative damage shields, such as one which makes a mob more susceptible to certain weapon types (blunt, slashing, or piercing), or "lure" damage shields that did double the amount of damage on specific creature types (similar to bane dmg).

But Verant didn't do any of that, so here we are.

~Firemynd

Tils
07-19-2002, 02:23 AM
"They might have created damage shields that proc'd various effects -- such as having poisoned thorns break off into the mob and acting as a debuffer (bleeding profusely lowers stamina = decreases hp), or reduces ATK, etc.

Or even more innovative damage shields, such as one which makes a mob more susceptible to certain weapon types (blunt, slashing, or piercing), or "lure" damage shields that did double the amount of damage on specific creature types (similar to bane dmg)."


Nice ideas :)

Tils

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-19-2002, 04:06 AM
So a spell that heals more than twice the health as torpor, INSTANTLY, with no ill effects, castable out of the group, and available on a vendor instead of Phara_Dar'sCorpse582340 finally...

...for only twice the mana.

So a spell that reduces a mob damage output by 75%, making it so you can heal with freaking bandages, available on a vendor...at level 51...for a pittance of the mana.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-19-2002, 05:59 AM
"So a spell that reduces a mob damage output by 75%, making it so you can heal with freaking bandages, available on a vendor"

Soo sorry dat joo seem ta be stuck fightin Orc Pawns still. *shrug*. I dunno where joo fightin, but eben slowed in LD last night in Velks I wuz gettin clocked fer triples at 150/round wit mebbe a nice bash and kick trown in dere.

When da 60 clerik we had left and we wuz waitin on da replacement, we pulled a couple of dogs. Meez not able ta keep up on da heelin on da 59 tank. At 20m and Sup heelin da Tank like a fiend, and he still went down ta bezerk. And it took 3 casts of SLOW ta get da doggie ta calm down. Dat wuz ONE dog.

Heal with a bandage....meez tinkin jer a bit too prone to make da mountains owt of da molehills. But dats nuttin new.



Guud ting meez Canni up and him hab da invig dance goin on wit da BP.

If ANYWUN else in da party had grabbed da aggro, dey would be ded, becuz dere wuz no way I wuz keepin up on da health loss.

Ikrini Geomancer
07-19-2002, 06:15 AM
Perhaps I'm reading it wrong (I dont really speak Troll) but I think he's saying if you had put a druid in that same situation you'd have to Succor or die.

yes, it's a good thing your canni was up isnt it?

please correct me if I'm worng.

Mikar
07-19-2002, 06:16 AM
Corlathis


I used Cann 5 as the extreme example. Reading somewhere that Cann 5 + Torpor = 51 FT or so.


Please be carefull not to bring false info to the table. CannV is good - but not that good.

In a perfect setting you get:
1: Decrease Hitpoints by 1924
2: Increase Mana by 1066
every 3 mins.

Then you need to heal back the 1924 hp at a 6:1 ratio using torpor - so you end up with 745 mana / 3 mins or if you prefer 25 mana/tick.

This is assuming you can cast it the instant its ready - and without counting lost med time. Its very good - no doubt about that - but its not 51 mana/tick.

tetrian corbec
07-19-2002, 06:24 AM
Tried adding cana4 on top of that?

Mikar
07-19-2002, 06:34 AM
Tetrian

No, I didnt try adding CannIV.

In case you missed it I am a cleric - so I dont have any reason to pretend Cann isnt incredible usefull - because it is.

I just corrected a factual error - and I hope we do agree that if someone does use numbers to argument - then those numbers used should be correct.

And claiming CannV is 51 mana/tick when its more like 25 mana/tick is a pretty large error. Dont you agree?

tetrian corbec
07-19-2002, 06:53 AM
Nm, tried calculating it, provided a shaman is using cana4 and 5, he will gain around 73 mana per tick - will even come out with 600 or so extra hps on top (didnt wanna go that deep into details :P)

probably a little more due to topor giving a extra tick or two every now and then.(hope my math isnt off)

Mikar
07-19-2002, 07:11 AM
Thats true for downtime w/ torpor - but not for uptime - because it wouldnt leave the shaman any time to use the mana ;)

But, no argument from me - Cann is extremely powerfull - mainly when used with torpor. I dont think anyone would ever deny that.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-19-2002, 07:22 AM
ROFL. I lub it when peeple start chiming in wit CANNI!

Lets put it dis way. I DID Canni (3) during da fight fer sum fast mana returnz.

Don't try ta confuse CANNI wit fast mana returnz in da combat situation. It duz improve jer mana regen, and in da long fights meez can CANNI fer 1 or 2 or 3 (dats pushin it) extra healz when tings are goin wrong. Cuz when it hits da fan joo dont hab TIME ta Canni. In controlled situationz yep, joo sure do. If meez wuz down ta 20m after da fight and 60 health frum da canni, chances are a drood woulda been OOM, but da party would be saved as well.

Wuts da difference between a Shammy dat Canni's fer a couple of extra healz and saves da party, and da Druid dat succors ta zone and saves da party?

Not much.

Oh, and No CANNI 5, No Torpor. But meez hab da Fungi. So meez mana returnz are faster den most.

Oldoaktree
07-19-2002, 09:54 AM
You are vastly understating the value of Cani by looking at it only "during the fight." Shamans tend to use Cani between pulls in experience groups and as a result they tend to be closer to FM going into the fight than a druid would.

On a raid, particuilarly on a boss fight, a careful shaman can and will cani up more mana so they can continue to contribute over a 20 or 30 minute fight.

For a druid, all you can do is try to steal a mod rod while no one is looking (they are for the clerics most of the time) or see if you can sit without getting summoned. Clerics are in the same boat...except they get necro twitching and mod rods as a priority.

Druids...we have to watch our mana depletion rates. On some raids (rare circumstances) you can bind very close to thefight and get back to it in case you die. In those situations it is often a relief to die...it gives me full mana again (although my naked mana pool is kinda tiny).

No matter how you slice it, Shamans have one of the best mana regen abilities in the game and it makes a huge, huge difference in their utility in a group or on a raid...or solo.

Is succor useful? Yes. But as power has increased, we find there are fewer and fewer zones where an evacer is "required." Once upon a time you would not go deeper in seb than say Necro or Gang without an evacer. Now people routinely work the deepest camps without evac and plan on fighting out.

The only zones where evacer is still sought are HS (cus it is too much of a pain to fight out...though I still have seen groups go without evac) and well...really that is it. People tend to plan to just die if it comes down to it.

I remember when I used to get tells asking me to come to Seb cuz an evacer was needed. That has not happened in over six months. Handy, yes. But I use succor more for utility porting or for raids (no not to run away, you just die...to get through SG, to get to the spot you fight Gore by porting to Skyfire, etc) now than I do for exp groups... by far.

Graal the Dorf
07-19-2002, 10:11 AM
Just wanted to point something out..

Is succor useful? Yes. But as power has increased, we find there are fewer and fewer zones where an evacer is "required." Once upon a time you would not go deeper in seb than say Necro or Gang without an evacer. Now people routinely work the deepest camps without evac and plan on fighting out.

Keep in mind that as power increases it becomes easier for a druid to act as main healer. As your evaccer role deteriorates, your ability to play main healer increases.

I don't disagree at all about shaman healing, but wanted to point out that little logical inconsistency. ;)

Oldoaktree
07-19-2002, 10:23 AM
Actually druid healing ability has not grown at the same pace player power has.

You have given some great statistics based on your own experience but while I have been in groups where the healing pace is like you have described, that is not normally the case for me.

I am a better than average equipped druid, but no where near as well equipped as some of the folks that post here. I can't keep up healing 2 tanks in Velks without a slower. I have tried. Velks is one of the few zones where a druid can walk in and get a pickup group very easily. While I hate the zone anyway what really drives me away is a dread of being sucked into playing cleric for multiple tanks that want continuous pulls. I go OOM there after about 3 fights and they tend to pull anyway. If there is a chanter or bard there I can do better because of the brain buffs - but then we are also having good crowd control and maybe slow /shrug.

Another example I was duoing with a bard guildmate the other night in FG...he was helping me kill lotuses for the drops I needed for the earings. Each lotus ate through 60% of my mana bar healing just one target. We are both level 60 and he has some great gear (including the Tunare bard weapon). Yes DPS would ahve been better with more people there and the agro target would have taken less dmg but no, I was not keeping up well. We fought 2 once...I started at 80m and he at full health...at the end of the fight I had 0 mana and he had 20% health. And yes, ROTG was up and it didn't matter a hill of beans.

The increase in power has meant that some of the plate classes (Sk, Pally, Warrior) take a lot less dmg than they used to yes, but the new zones have also introduced exp mobs with many more hps making the fights longer. I really don't keep up tremendously well there. It has also meant that player HP totals have increased while my rate of healing (900 or so hp with NT in about 6 secs) has remained the same. And no, I don't have a Heal 3 focus so figuring in the theoretical benefit of it is not meaningful to me...nor to the vast majority of druids in the game.

I understand all you have posted, but my real first hand experience is dramatically at variance with what you have concluded. I don't heal "well enough" for very many experience groups, and never, ever without a slower.

And if a group is looking for a dmg dealer, they will go for a rogue, then a monk or a ranger, then a wizard, then whoever else (maybe a druid).

Groups these days want to kill as fast and as furiously as possible and these days, we don't tend to do that as well...I can contribute 2 to 3k dmg per mob on an experience kill so long as every 5th fight or so I get some med time and nuke less or don't nuke.

But this is all off topic...

Sobe Silvertree
07-21-2002, 01:35 PM
Phidget Da Trollie,

Well my friend start working on Spell Casting Reinforcement Mastery.. because as you know.. that 1200 Torpor = 2100 Torpor when you get you max those AA's.

/hugs da Trollie

Aldarion Shard
07-21-2002, 01:49 PM
why is it shaman cant speak english out of game?

tetrian corbec
07-21-2002, 02:05 PM
I personally enjoy the roleplaying - It removes alot of the tension that could be around if the arguments came out in plain english.

Besides, now we can pull out the troll begone spray because of the spell rather than anoying comments :P

Phidget Da Trollie
07-22-2002, 05:43 AM
yeah...

Meez will werk on doze AA's az soon as meez come up wit da 150k dat da going rate fer Torpor is goin fer on meez server.

(aktually, its more den 150k, da lokal uber guild made da publik announcement dat dey payin 150k. No dowbt if meez raised 150k by sellin meez trolly arse, da guild wood just add anudder 25-50k and blow meez offer outta da water).

And yep. Canni iz a Great DOWNTIME tool. In da fights its not az handy, cuz da time it takes to get back da mana to cast da heal, dat gonna do any guud, aint happenin. Unless joo canni fer de entire fite. And eben den joo only gonna get 1-2 extra healz.

Druidz are so quik ta downplay dere own abilitiez and say "Shammies are regarded like GODS" (Dats abowt da stupidest line meez eber heard), ignorin wut shammies are aktually tellin dem.

Rite now meez wiz iz holdin steady at abowt 175. Dats not too bad fer da shammy. Wit wis gear and bearform meez pushin 195ish. Which iz pretty guud.

Da point jer not gettin iz dat in a bad situation, joo can probably heal as much az I can, and den go oom. I *MAY* be able ta get a heal or two more den joo from da canni, but dats offset by da fakt dat at my level druidz probably hittin 200+ wis, and hab a couple of extra healz from da start in dere static mana pool.

I recover FASTER, troo, but on a pure mana pool aspekt, meez probably hab less mana in da short term, but much more in da long term.

Jer saying dat "Well you can exp faster cuz joo recover quiker!!", of corse we iz recoverin quiker. But joo hab a druid wit a chanter, or bard, or twitchy necro (or combination of da two), and jer fine.

And az meez sed before I dont hab da problem wit a RAID level upgrade on da healin. Not at all. I do hab da problem on da EXP group healin, cuz of 1 ting:

Joo alreddy CAN EXP grind wit druid az main healer. And joo whining dat "MY GROUPS ARE DYING!" iz bein refuted by UDDER DRUIDZ.

If joo saying "well dats not my experience", den joo need ta do some hard tinkin. Change yer playstyle a bit, hit easier places, or get a different group make-up to cover jer weaknesses.

Broomhilda
07-22-2002, 05:50 AM
Shaman AE groups?


forums.interealms.com/sha...genumber=1 (http://forums.interealms.com/shaman/showthread.php?s=0b6b3a86f5ec41deb3d6be0cd9d3ad47&threadid=3350&perpage=40&pagenumber=1)


Funny how alot of these Shamans tend to think alot of Torpor, as well as Canni :P

Phidget Da Trollie
07-22-2002, 06:18 AM
Yeah.

Take a notice at the comments.

Joo noticin dat not everyone is chiming in saying "YEAH WE ARE!", "AoE ROCKS!", etc.

Most of da posters, includin meself, are rather skeptikal, cuz we know dat Shammys dont hold da candle to da Mage, Channy, Bard, Wiz, Druid, when it comes to da AE groups.

Shaman in AoE groups are not NEEDED. Dey are simply dere, and to be honest da role of da shammy in one iz much better done by any of da classes above.

Its like da warrior in da AE group, he aint needed, and knwoin hez in one hez pretty much a charity case fer da group. Cuze he aint needed.

Stormhaven
07-22-2002, 07:52 AM
Having to possibly organize a Skyfire raid on those level 60 wurm/wyverns for a copy of torpor for a shaman who doesn't have it. They might even drag me to VP :(

Talyena Trueheart
07-22-2002, 08:02 AM
Most of da posters, includin meself, are rather skeptikal, cuz we know dat Shammys dont hold da candle to da Mage, Channy, Bard, Wiz, Druid, when it comes to da AE groups.

You left out clerics. They actually ae better than druids plus can res the puller. :)

Oldoaktree
07-22-2002, 08:23 AM
Phidg..

Just an FYI.

Druids never, ever, ever get AE groups.

Our PBAoE is too long a reset.

There is a squirrely way we can use the spells solo but it takes a huge amount of skill and only works in one zone. I don't know if anyone has tried it since the Grey was changed either. Traps are death to a druid trying to use the technique.

It is theoretically possible yes, and while I bet a more than a handful of druids across all servers have tried it since they read about it, I would guess that fewer than 5 druids across all servers attempt to do so with any regularity.

AoE groups are all about a puller, a cleric, a chanter to stun, and then Wizzies/Mages to fill it out. Our PBAoE spells are unsuitable for those situations.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-22-2002, 09:34 AM
Tanks. meez not knowin dat, but da point remains.

Sumwun is pointing at shammys in da AOE groups, as if dey are sumhow UBER at da AoE, and shammy's shuld be ENVIED fer bein able ta AoE (Laff). Dey are probably second last in da "want ta have" fer da AoE.

Right ahead of da necro.

Da point meez iz tryin ta make iz dat druidz can heal in da exp, but several REALLY vokal peeple here are sayin "NO WE CAN'T!", and da udder druidz are like "Umm..yes we can" (But not as loud as de udder folkz).

Canni iz a great tool, but itz right up dere wit Chanter, KEI. KEI helps joo in da long fights, when joo hab da TIME ta recover, canni iz sorta da same way. When joo hab 2 minutes of HELL happenin in da group, druidz are better off den da shammyz (witowt torpor), becuz dere healin iz better (direkt healz), and dere mana pool will probably be bigger den de average shammy (Most shammys hover arownd 175 wis or so....chek da shammy board fer more information). Joo will go OOM a tad later den a shammy, and spend more time recovering, but its still doable. Though da shammys hab higher AC den druidz. If joo kan keep da healin aggro down, den joo rockin.

Meez just hate to see people on here saying "I don't feel so useless", "our groups will live if we could heal better", etc.

How abowt sumtin like "Our groups will live if we play smarter?"

Phidget

Oldoaktree
07-22-2002, 10:26 AM
Being able to heal in an exp group depends on several factors.

First and most importantly, we can only do that in the older, less popular experience zones. Ok ME too.

Second, we really DO need a slower. Only the ones who are far, far better geared than average (and so have high FT count and big mana pools) are really saying anything different.

Third, if we are healing we are doing nothing else, except perhaps some clicky dots. Other classes filling the same role would have a better choice of clickies.

Fourth, while we can get by under certain circumstances, we don't do so well at all. We are mana starved and stressed most of the time we attempt to do this.

I can limp for a while without a slower as an exp group healer in certain zones. But the pull rate has to be ridiculously slow. I have FT of about 4 and a mana pool of 3500. I am just about perfectly average based on the druid petitions profile. I CANNOT keep up as a healer for any length of time.

And I think you missed my point about Cani. It doesn't matter that it is used between fights (and yes sometimes during). Shamans rarely need to get much below full mana. A druid in an exp group (assuming they are playing healer) may be hovering between 20% and 50% mana most of the time.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-23-2002, 04:30 AM
But da point iz JOO CAN DO EXP groups. And sumwun here wuz askin fer lists and anudder druid wuz sayin:

Seb, HS, KC Basement, ME, FG, Chardok Not da Big camps in doze like Emperor or 4a, but de udders are doable, and not only wit all da uberest gear.

And da point is still valid. If joo dont hab da "perfeckt" group (Cleric, War, enchanter + 3 others), den de udder members of da group need ta make up fer da shortcomings.

Not enuff heelin? Den joo need ta slow..get a bard, or da chanter. Or recruit anudder healer, get da pally ta back up heal or hab da munkee get bandages frum da mage.

Da message meez tryin ta say iz dat joo are FAR from useless az all da whinerz keep moanin. Joo CAN exp az da main healer in da group or joo can solo all da way up to 60. Not many classes can say da same.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-23-2002, 05:48 AM
Joo noticin dat not everyone is chiming in saying "YEAH WE ARE!", "AoE ROCKS!", etc.

Most of da posters, includin meself, are rather skeptikal, cuz we know dat Shammys

Actually have read a thread on Graffes about wizards who love doing AE Duo's with shaman, killing mobs 12-20 at a time...

Oldoaktree
07-23-2002, 07:20 AM
Ok last time.

Phidg.

The camps I could actually play a healer at....no one goes to anymore.

In seb I can heal at Necro or Gang. That is about it. And actually I have not been there as the main healer since the patch for NPC casting. Chardok I solo in but I have only played duo healer with a Shaman there. I could NOT play solo healer there at least without a slower. KC basement is not an exp camp anymore on my server. The only people there are there for the piece of the VP key. ME I have tried to play healer without a slower and it was an unspeakable experience. I kept up for a while but there was a LOT of downtime. FG I tried again the other day duo and I did not keep up. In faster kill situations (groups) there are multiple pulls of the mushrooms and no, I could not keep up there wihtout another healer (have done those camps with a Pally).

It is a myth that druids are playing main healers all on their own all over the world. We do it in a pinch, but it only works "ok" if you have either a Shaman (ideal) or a Pally to help back you up.

If I am doing so, there is a Shaman there slowing. They could also do the same job without me.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-23-2002, 07:35 AM
OK. Last time Oak.

If meez iz da only healer in a group of 5 tanks and no mana regen or any kind of udder heelin, meez gonna get da same problems joo hab.

Throw anudder healer in, or casters dat know how to NOT get aggro, and its gettin better.

If joo expectin ta walk inta a high level exp grind camp wit 5 tanks and prosper, jer outta jer mind. Cleriks go OOM under doze conditionz and ritefully so, and meez would go OOM real fast too.

Its abowt da GROUP. And da people in da GROUP. I dont know how many timez meez hab to say dis:

*If joo are in a group wit weakness (crowd control, Healing, mana regen, damage, whatever), den de UDDER memberz of da group need ta reflekt dat.*

Oldoaktree
07-23-2002, 07:55 AM
I think the issue is that many of us (including me) are in guilds that almost all the Shamans are 60 and do have Torpor.

It may be true that you can't keep up much better. But you do have the same mana ratio on your heal that I do without having Torpor, and you have a much better regen rate.

And you can slow. I can't. Dmg taken in a group with you as main healer is at most 1/3 of what it is when I am in one without a healer. And you have Cani (in one of its forms) so you can self regen your mana much faster than I.

Even 3 or 5 levels behind me (I am 60), a Shaman can play solo healer better than I. And can do so without help.

With my current tools I never try to be solo healer. I will just go do boring solo work if that is what it comes down to. But why should druids be the only priests that can't keep a group standing on their own?

Talyena Trueheart
07-23-2002, 08:21 AM
If meez iz da only healer in a group of 5 tanks and no mana regen or any kind of udder heelin, meez gonna get da same problems joo hab.

That would be if I could reduce the mobs damage output by 75%, and increase the melee output by 50%. Well, it wouldn't be exactly true. You can increase the melee stats much better than I could and cani yourself for extra mana as well. Don't lie to us or yourself, we are nowhere even close to each other in healing abilities.

corlathist
07-23-2002, 11:08 AM
Killed my favorite 36k HP mob again today.

These are rough averages having killed the mob 20 or so times. Fights usually last 10 minutes approximately.

Shaman 57
Offensive Damage: 15K range (Bane and continual JBB) + Pet + Contributing to Monk's Haste

Druid 60
Offsive Damage: 9K + Thorns (Winged Death + Drones)

Defensively:
Monk self heals 2500 (2 mends + fungi)
Regrowth Heals 900 ((Either Druid or Shaman))
NR Heals 3k (3 Casts 10% Extension)
Druid Direct Heals: 4400 (5 Natures Touches are typical)
Shaman Direct Heals: 3500 (9 Chloroblasts. Usually Spam Heal 3 Chlorblasts to max hps, three times in fight))

Total Damage Healed: 11300

Debuffs:
Shaman Slows 75% + Cripple (Str/Ag/Dex -72) AC -32
Druid Stacks all 3 Ros so that Fixation/Disjunction on mob
ac 43 Attack 131

End Fight Results: Druid Mana 20ish. Shaman Mana 60ish
Both have horses to be medding while standing all fight


Conclusions: This is hard to quantify because I am not sure exactly what percentage of the monks damage should be attributed to Shamans Haste And Harnassing
also varies based on procs and theres no way of really telling if a proc would have proced anyway without dex bonus.

Still: I'd say Shaman accounts for half the damage output.

Okay number crunching: if a mob slowed 75% did 11300 damage. Then it would have really done about 44k.

So Shaman does half the damage while
Healing/Preventing 36k Damage + Cripple

Druid does about 30% Damage
Healing/Preventing 4.5K + Ro/Ro.

Now, lets talk balance. Try subbing Priest Classes in:

Druid replacing Druid Above: Duh.
Druid replacing Shaman Above: Impossible. I dont know a druid alive that could have Healed 36K while dishing out 18k in 10 minutes.

Shaman replace Shaman above: Duh
Shaman replace Druid Above: Sure. JBB stack. Do about 10k in JBB alone to replace damage side. Few extra chlorblasts to replace Natures Recovery.

Cleric replace Druid above: I think so. Even if cleric did 0 Damage. That would only increase the fight duration by about 40%. This means the 7500ish Druid Healed would need to be 10k ish. Thats 4 CH. easy.

Cleric replace shaman above: Hmmmm tough call. Doubt it. Fight would be almost twice as long. Cleric would have to heal roughly 70k in damage. Marks might speed it a bit, but your still guesstimating looking at healing 60k
or so.

Incidently use to do same fight before the shaman got JBB and Bane. Fights used to last 20 minutes. Druid was still 60. Monk was 58 first time we did it.

corlathist
07-23-2002, 11:23 AM
First of all, in all Class Balance discussions you had better be DAMN sure Im including ALL spells (other than ancient) and assuming a full spellbook.

I have a 57 Shaman, 60 Druid. Heres a list of what I spent on each Spells.

Shaman: Torpor = 20k. Pox = (Bracelet of Might +10k. Rough Value 20k). Bane = (Lotus Vine Necklace. Guessing 6k)

Druid: Moonfire = 20k Mask of Hunter = 15k Nature Recovery = 10k Ro Disjunction = 5k. Circle of Season = 5k. Bear Pet = 3500 Improved Camo =2500 Blizzard 2k

Still to buy: Druid = Mask of stalker.
Shaman = Mala (20k typical) Bear (3-5)

So in total: 70k in shaman spells 63k in Druid spells.

Roughly same since i doubt i will ever get mask of stalker.

----------------------------------------------------

Slow Agro.

Its all about management. Outdoors its easy. Buy a Horse. You will rarely have any mana or agro problems again.

----------------------------------------------------

Mana Regen

All two often dual boxing. I have OOM/LOM both the druid & shaman. I sorta laugh when Shaman is FM/FH while druid is at 30ish. What makes this really funny is that the druid had 7 more mana regen per tic (Mask + FT4)

-----------------------------------------------------

Healing

Druid can heal fine in most zones IF there is a slower.
Shaman provides his own slower.

-------------------------------------------------

Cann 5

Actually I did not calculate myself that it was 51 FT.
I read tat with it. Shaman could have equivlent of 51 FT. This was usuing Can5 + Cann4.

-------------------------------------------------

Anyway, when all is said and done if they give druids a 2k 400 mana direct heal. It will be about right. It wont break the game nor make druids suddenlyy overpowered.
if they give the same heal to shamans, Ill laugh as shamans totally replace clerics outside of boss mobs.

Broomhilda
07-23-2002, 11:38 AM
nice numbers Corlathist :)

Honestly tho, its pointless to debate with Phidget, all he'll keep saying is how we're the same class and how we can do anything they can do. Whether he really believes this or not, i have no idea.

Anyways, good luck fellas ;)

Oldoaktree
07-23-2002, 11:47 AM
Heh also bowing out Broom. /shrug.

Graal the Dorf
07-23-2002, 12:03 PM
The power of slow scales directly with the melee damage output of the mob you are fighting. The higher the melee damage output of the mob, the more powerful slow is. Conversely, if the mob has low melee damage output, slow becomes less powerful.

There are times when my wife doesn't even bother to slow because its simply a waste of mana to spend 250 mana slowing each mob when she can just heal me every 2 mobs for about the same mana instead. Of course, that's only when we fight wussy mobs. She also doesn't slow sometimes if we have a mage or druid in the group because of the DS. If the DS on me (with 8th ring DS) is 30 or so and the mobs average hit is 40-50, we get faster xp without slowing them. It all depends on how strong the mob's melee is. Slow in those situations doesn't really save mana, it actually costs more mana than just healing. On top of that, it cuts DS damage by 3/4.

Slow works best on harder mobs. My wife and I solo'd a guardian wurm last night (STILL no friggin torpor! heard someone saw it for sale for 75k last night...at least it's for sale). I had to use LoH and we were both OOM and down to 1 bubble of health. Without KEI we couldn't have done it. I doubt I could have done it with a cleric, and there is no way I could have done it with a druid. GWs just hit too hard, too fast, which makes slow incredibly powerful against them.

Generally slow is awesome, but there are times when it is a waste of mana.

EDIT: Holy #$%^! You bought torpor for 20k?!

corlathist
07-23-2002, 08:30 PM
Actually as I think back. He was asking 20k for torpor.
I bought it for 16k.

Graal the Dorf
07-23-2002, 09:57 PM
My wife just got torpor for 60k tonight. We had to take out a loan and empty both our bank accounts for it. 60k is the standard price on the rathe. Not sure how you got it for 16k. Someone was smoking the whacky weed.

It was worth it though.

corlathist
07-24-2002, 03:37 AM
Actually, I guess things are highly server dependent.

20k for torpor is the norm on my server.

Firemynd
07-24-2002, 03:57 AM
My wife and I solo'd a guardian wurm last night

If you and your wife are two different people, each playing a character, how was that soloing?

Sorry, it was killin' me and I had to say something. All better now. ;)

~Firemynd

Phidget Da Trollie
07-24-2002, 04:43 AM
ting iz dat it ain't useless ta argue....Meez just listening ta sum of da druids dat say:

"We heal OK (not great) in exp groups, but we need a raid boost"

And den da doom sayers dat say:

"We heal like crap, everyone dies in our groups, we need to be able to be the ONLY healer in a group (with no slower and no mana regen), and have everyone grind exp non-stop. Oh and we also need a raid level boost"

Meez agreein wit da first and disagree wit da second. Jer right, slow is a powerful tool and makes it SOOOO easy on da healers (Shammy included). But sumwun said it guud, Slow's effektivness scales against wutever MoBs joo hittin. Dere are alot of fights, dat cuz da damage output iz so high, dat I dont eben use da slow. Its Hastin and Healin.

And if dere's a channy in da group, meez Healin and buffin.

Druidz are broken fer raidz, but healin wise, dey pretty solid. Dey can cover as a back-up healer, but struggle as a main healer.

Silverblade the Enchanter
07-24-2002, 05:30 AM
Some points:

I *have* AoEd with a shaman slowing with no chnater, but doing small amounts of mobs, usually 4-8. Works very well, risky though it's NOT a cakewwalk. Shroom procs, intterupts etc suck.

I *have* AoEd with druids, they can heal as well as AoE, maybe not the best AoE but they CAN do it, and heals between casts save butts.

Arent that many xp mobs who DONT hit hard, and thus who dont need slowed. Varies on grouping etc I can see it being not vital at times.


Redorious
Archmage
karana

corlathist
07-24-2002, 07:01 AM
Okay you said you agree Druids need a Raid boost
and disagree they should be able to play main healer in a XP group.

What are you smoking.

Let's Look at Shaman, Druid, Cleric. Priest Class.

Solo Power:
Terms of Mobs capable of Soloing Power wise
Shaman > Druid > Cleric

Terms of XP per Hour
Shaman > Druid > Cleric

Groups in terms of where able to Play Main Healer
(No other Slower) upper difficulty zones. (umbral+)

Cleric > Shaman > Druid

Groups with Enchanter
Cleric > Shaman > Druid

Groups where able to play main healer (No other slower)
Lower Difficulty Zones (Velks floor, ME)

Shaman > Cleric > Druid


Raids

Cleric > Shaman > Druid


Shaman's can outsolo a druid.
Shaman's can out Main Heal a druid

So explain again, why Druids shouldnt have a boost to thier Main Heal capabilities.

PS: If you can't outsolo a druid, you need to work on your learning & maximizing your capabilities. Ive been outsoloing my 60 Druid in XP per hour ever since I hit 51 with my Shaman.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-24-2002, 07:37 AM
Jer not readin too good.

"and disagree they should be able to play main healer in a XP group"

I neber said dey SHOULDN'T be able ta play main healer in da exp group. I sed dat dey already CAN/DO play healer in da exp groups and several of da druidz on here have sed da same ting. Dey CAN play healer, its harder, buts it doable, and joo can't hit da heavy areas, but playin main healer up to 60 is doable fer da druid. Joo can go to KC, SEB, Chardok, The Hole, HS, ME, FG and grind exp dere nicely in a group and az da main healer. Meez not talkin frum experience, but what UDDER druidz are sayin.

Jer list is a TAD biased meez tinkin.

"Groups where able to play main healer (No other slower)
Lower Difficulty Zones (Velks floor, ME)"

What joo smokin? Dere wuz a druid on de udder thread dat was sayin its EASY ta do all of seb cept 4a, Juggs, Emp. for a 60 druid (and dere equipment wasn't all dat UBER, cuz Broom sed "Yeah if yer equip is uber"). Mebbe its time joo retinkin how joo play yer druid IF you insist on doin tings UDDER druids are alreddy doin. And meez personally been wit meez bard in ALOT of doze places, including a HS break (2 HTs on da SK), where da druid iz da main/only healer.

"If you can't outsolo a druid, you need to work on your learning & maximizing your capabilities. Ive been outsoloing my 60 Druid in XP per hour ever since I hit 51 with my Shaman"

Never sed dat. Joo keep readin tings meez not sayin. Meez not sayin dat I cant outsolo a druid, meez sayin dat joo aren't attaching ANY value to habbin de ability to virtually eliminate travel time in comparison to udder people. Sure meez can solo. But if meez hit da zone and da solo spots are camped. I spend an hour goin to da next one. You spend 5 minutes. In da time it takes me ta get to da exp huntin area ta solo, joo can alreddy have done a half a dozen quadz. Joo also dont attach any value to da ability ta single blues out for kills. Meez Hab to deal wit aggro greenies, light bloos and Over cons. Track (joo know dat Ranger/bard/druid skill dat no one wants...uh huh), allows joo ta single out da BEST exp gainin mobs fer da best quads and/or root rots. Meez hab to run around CONNING everyting and risk green/liteblue aggro and wasted time, cuz greeniez at high level still kick me arownd (like anyone).

Jer putting it down to a purely "Joo kan heal better den me" type of argument, while ignoring all de udder plusses inherent to jer class. Joo blow dem off, but dat nasty druid before joo sed it best "Why would I want to exp with a group in one of those places when I can get more exp solo".

Joo hab a TREMENDOUS amount of abilities dat make joo da best solo machine/farmer in da game. Mees not talkin abowt SINGLE mob takedown. But pure ability fer hitting 15 different zones, smackin all da Nameds, soloing out and quaddin all da exp givers den hitting da next zone. Your class is da BEST at dis. Hitting a dungeon, poppin up track, den moving on if no named MoBs are up. No other class can eben come close wit dis combination of abilities for pure solo ability ta maximize drops, exp and loot.

Jer so far out ahed of da pack and joo dont eben know it. De only place joo lack iz on da raidz. But den so do SKs, rangers, Necros, Shammys (more den one).

Graal the Dorf
07-24-2002, 08:30 AM
As much as it gives me a headache to read that troll RP mess, I have to say that there was a good summation mixed in.

"We heal OK (not great) in exp groups, but we need a raid boost"

And den da doom sayers dat say:

"We heal like crap, everyone dies in our groups, we need to be able to be the ONLY healer in a group (with no slower and no mana regen), and have everyone grind exp non-stop. Oh and we also need a raid level boost"

This is pretty much how I see things too, for what that's worth.

There are the druids who think that for xp groups, they do ok healing (not stellar but ok) but need some sort of defining role for raids.

Then there are the druids who essentially want to be able to heal as well as a cleric can. I know that those druids will pull out numbers and scream "CH!!!" to counter this, but if a druid can heal any group, without any support in that role, with no downtime, in any xp zone in the game...how could a cleric heal better than that?

I firmly support the first group of druids. I don't support druids in the later group.

Znail vh
07-27-2002, 03:08 AM
/agree Graal

Great post!

Broomhilda
07-27-2002, 08:52 AM
Well, my question to you Graal would be, do you find it perfectly acceptable that a Cleric and Shaman can keep a group alive by themself, when a Druid cant? Now i know this is when some Uber Druid chimes in talking about how he has no problem healing in exp groups w/o a slower. But guess what, hes the exception not the norm. Most Druids will tell you they require a slower to be able to heal in an exp group. In terms of a Shaman saying we can heal as well as them, well, you know thats BS when it comes to slowing a mob by 75% and having the same mana efficient heals we do along with the regens.

Thats the issue i have. Alot of the raiding druids dont do exp groups anymore, or have their own 'set' groups they do it with so getting groups is never a problem and they play in that 'sheltered' environment where they dont have to deal with class desirability. The Druids Grove is a poor representation of Druids as a whole imo, since most of the ones here tend to be uber, just look at the Moonfire thread. I swear most Druids dont have Moonfire, which makes that poll indicative of the type of players the DG has. Maybe EQDruids should be factored into this.

So when do i get groups you ask? When a Cleric and Shaman arent available, they ask the Druid. You should understand that getting groups are based on the perspectives other classes have of us, and many tend to still think of Clerics as the healer above all others, and Shamans as Gods. Where do Druids fit into the equation? We're convenient backups, we can do alot of the little things that dont even matter that much, but we should be soloing :P

So maybe thats the way its supposed to be. I'm starting to accept it more and more that we're by and large meant to be a soloing class. Our epic is a soloing tool, we get a recent change(dot change) that has to do with soloing more than anything. In terms of how priest grouping abilities stack up to one another, we're clearly behind Shaman(slow, haste, focus, healing, what else could a melee want?) and Clerics(guaranteed enough healing), but ahead in a soloing sense. Maybe not too far ahead of Shamans, but i feel this is probably how Druids are meant to be in Verants eyes. Can i get groups still? Sure, alot of it is based on timing, but when every class is available, i almost always see a Shaman and Cleric being the first choice. Recognize, we arent picked up for damage, but healing most of the time. Imo, we should be equally considered, but fact of the matter is a Shaman brings the power of SLOW to the group, while the Cleric brings the power of guaranteed HEALING. Druids bring little things, but nothing that can be considered as important or valuable to the group as the 2 most powerful abilities in the game, and even then both those class have other abilties that complement groups better than we can.

Btw, i'm somewhat the opposite. I enjoy a druids role on raids, i DONT want a new role. I just want some improvements to fulfill the healing side of the role. Imo a HoT or even a group heal would be fine and i'd be happy on raids. I think a group heal would add alot of value to a Druid on raids as well, its just rediculous to act as tho Pallys should have the monopoly on it. I do feel that we lack for desirability in exp groups these days, which is what most of the facts Druids have brought forth supports. The watering down of ports, sows, snares, etc. have more to do with our general desirability than raids.

Cassea
07-27-2002, 08:56 AM
Crimson Legacy has 166 members and is considered a high level guild on Eci.

We have 6 Druids at level 60 and only 2 (maybe 1) has Moonfire.

I know I don't LOL and even if I found it for sale I could not afford to buy it.

I too was a bit shocked to see (so far) that over half the Druids here have Moonfire.

Of course this poll is not scientific in the least. Anyone could vote yes even if they don't even play EQ LOL.

Broomhilda
07-27-2002, 09:06 AM
"Recognize, we arent picked up for damage, but healing most of the time"

I'm quoting myself here, but want to explain this. Somebody putting a group together, or even if a group had just lost one member and is looking to grab another class to fill the role of the person lost. Lets say they lost some DPS. Its a joke for anybody to say their going to grab the Druid for DPS, and i know a druid here or there will tell you that. Only an idiot would do it, a Druids dps is directly related to mana regen, and in most exp groups casters only have the benefit of either kei/clarity or manasong. If you think a Druid with one of those mana regens can come anywhere close to the dps of a monk, rogue, mage pet, etc. then your wrong. So in conclusion, Druids arent picked up for DPS despite what some will have you believe.

Healing is mainly why we're picked up, mostly because there arent too many alternatives. After a cleric all you really have are Shamans, druids, and pallys. Shamans are pretty much the no brainer, even prefered over clerics if they can torpor. Pally's are decent, but they excel in ae situations or even in situations where much healing isnt required at all. Druids kinda fall under the sitautions where healing isnt required that much, or if the group plans to waste another slot to complement the Druid. So basically it takes 2 slots for a DRuid to be main healer, when it only takes 1 slot for a Shaman and Cleric.

Theofold
07-29-2002, 02:51 AM
Interesting topic.

You here do realise that when in non uber gear using CanV is the best taunt button around do you?
You do know that druids are an asset on raids (if not time to replace your guildleader/raidofficer)?
You do know that Torpor is a RoK spell that is a little bit rare, so that not all shamans have it?

And i am also curious why i never see the pally mentioned in this kind of topic.

Bottem line. Druids can do great in an xp group, they just have to get over this self pitty and start using the tools they have. (btw ever seen a druid with a mana stone in action?)

Broomhilda
07-29-2002, 06:41 AM
"Bottem line. Druids can do great in an xp group, they just have to get over this self pitty and start using the tools they have. (btw ever seen a druid with a mana stone in action?)"


I'd just like one of you to explain for once why Druids are really wanted in exp groups, its not about pity, its about explaining your blanket statements with some support. I can just say Druids arent wanted in exp groups just like your saying they are, but that doesnt tell you anything. My point being i've gone into detail explaining why, whereas you people saying otherwise dont tend to. I know my roles, i know what i can do, and if you dont play a Druid or dont do pickup groups then dont claim to know how desired they are. Its just silly when somebody that groups with the same people all of the time or people that only raid come here and tell people how desired they are. They have no clue because they are never in the situation to know =P

Anyways, i'm just tired of hearing blanket statements w/o any support, especially the ones by the people that dont even know or do pickup exp groups anymore. Even silly examples like a Druid w/ a manastone is just dumb when your talking about a manastone, /sigh. First of all, it only works in the Hole in terms of exp groups, i dunno one druid taht ports back and forth from old world to kunark, vel, Luclin to use it in exp groups. Personally, i cant stand the Hole. Its the most bland zone with some of the most uninteresting mobs in the game imo. The loots so rare it sucks, and frankly i avoid taht place as much as possible. I'll go to HS anyday over the Hole.

Aamadar LeCambrion
07-29-2002, 06:46 AM
Quote

Well, my question to you Graal would be, do you find it perfectly acceptable that a Cleric and Shaman can keep a group alive by themself, when a Druid cant?

Yes I find it acceptable that a cleric can keep a group alive by themselves, after all 'Healing" is what we do by design. I would dare say the perception of most players would agree that is our purpose.

As far as the shaman being able to do it, I would imagine you base that on Torpor. I would also assume that you agree that spell (torpor) is fairly rare as evidenced by other threads on this board.

Be well and safe all

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-29-2002, 06:56 AM
Then there are the druids who essentially want to be able to heal as well as a cleric can. I know that those druids will pull out numbers and scream "CH!!!" to counter this, but if a druid can heal any group, without any support in that role, with no downtime, in any xp zone in the game...how could a cleric heal better than that?

You have to explain why the Druid class should be the only Priest class which cannot maintain the healing of a group as the sole healer without there being large downtime?

Clerics and Shaman can both be the sole healers of a group without a real downtime. They are both incredibly usefull if not outright mandatory for any given raid.

Where's my freaking pie?

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-29-2002, 07:01 AM
As far as the shaman being able to do it, I would imagine you base that on Torpor. I would also assume that you agree that spell (torpor) is fairly rare as evidenced by other threads on this board.

Torpor not required...just their level 51 slow.

Broomhilda
07-29-2002, 07:25 AM
"As far as the shaman being able to do it, I would imagine you base that on Torpor. I would also assume that you agree that spell (torpor) is fairly rare as evidenced by other threads on this board."


No, i dont base it solely on Torpor. I base it on a 75% slow along with the same heal abilities we have with the haste. A shaman w/o Torpor can keep a group up better than a Druid can easily, and even better than a cleric can in certain situations. They dont need Torpor to do it, all they need really is slow, a decent heal, and some hasted melee which increases the dps against already slowed mobs that reduces the need for heals.

So we're not only talking about clerics here. Even then i disagree that a cleric should be required in most groups. Healing is one of the most important facets of putting a group together, and only 3 classes that can fulfill that role to some degree, only 2 of those that are able to do it w/o support is just silly.

I'm hoping Verant gives you clerics better soloing abilities, because this monopoly on healing needs to be passed around abit more. Its just crazy that only 3 classes can heal(excluding Pallys because they are situational), and only 1 out of those classes feels they should be required in every group. No one class should be required for every group period, there should be more than 2 choices to fill any role in the game. All that does is deter people from putting groups together.

Aamadar LeCambrion
07-29-2002, 08:08 AM
Aye your right I forgot the slowing component of the Shaman my apologies. I disagree though on your term monopoly. It is almost taken to the context of damning the cleric class for what they do and do well. I am a cleric, I heal and I resurrect when I do not do it right.

Your correct though about in some instances Shamans and Druids are at times better for the group than a cleric. Shamans as you stated with the buffing and the added dps are more preffered in most exp groups for that very fact.

Btw Shamans are not the only slowers in the game. A druid enchanter mix in a exp group does pretty much the same even though the slow is not as effective and mana then is usually not much of an issue. The same could be said with the bard. A shaman encompasses all those abilities. A cleric encompasses one 'major' ablity.

My class shines in a group where the complete heal and mana efficiency is important, most other places this is not the case or even needed. As so many threads have pointed out upon these boards and others, healing is now a matter of a right click away.

As far as soloing, I particuarly do not like to solo. I have a baby necromancer for that.

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of MIthaniel
Fennin Ro

Talyena Trueheart
07-29-2002, 09:08 AM
Okay, clerics claim all they can do is heal, so being ten times as efficient as other healers is no big deal. Of course, healing isn't the only thing clerics can do, the are the best at healing, ac/hp buffing, and ressing. There are some other things they do, but not as well.

Let's do some comparisons though. The melee counterpart to the cleric is a warrior. They tank and that truely is it. They do nothing else. So, going by cleric logic, they should be ten times the tank of any other melee class. Well, that just isn't the case. Even in very hard experience zones, warriors can be easily replaced by a paladin or sk. They can even be replaced by well equipped monks and rangers in many of the harder experience zones. Warriors don't have any kind of lock on tanking, and melee balancing has already been done. Now, I don't think druids are asking to be as close to clerics in healing as SKs or paladins are to warriors in tanking, but is it outrageous that we should be as close as a ranger is to the tanking abilities of a warrior (tanking as in taking damage, not dealing it)? The druid is a priest class afterall.

Aamadar LeCambrion
07-29-2002, 12:06 PM
Quote

Okay, clerics claim all they can do is heal, so being ten times as efficient as other healers is no big deal.

I agree with that and the rest in that first statement. We can do other things but as stated not as well. We can root, fear, detect the direction of North, atone (mem wipe outside aggro range), stun, etc.

My primary function when given a tell (other than a res request) is much like yours, can you join up we need a healer. The other abilities we have (and some stated above) are not the primary focus we are asked to join a group. Does that argument sound familiar?

I would postulate though in conjunction with a shaman/enchanter or even a bard your ability to heal is adequate for most zones.

Raids are a different matter entirely and with that I agree with you on. A few of my fellow clerics that are more learned than I, have even made reasonable suggestions along with the druid with the percentage thing (even though I do not entirely agree it is valid and makes sense, my concern is at what level to implement it).

We are not that far off in our thinking I would hazard to guess. As for the second part of your post I agree about the replacement of the Warrior by the mentioned classes. Druids working in conjunction with Shaman/Enchanters can heal well. Will they heal the raw numbers of a cleric? Probably, by virtue of the 75 and 70 percent slows (hence the need for lesser healing requirement). Does that mean in a typical experience group that you could function as efficiently without the supporting cast? No then you will be back in the same boat you find yourself currently, behind a cleric in healing.

There is no claim to that, it is merely a statement of fact. Our class was designed to heal. The resurrection fits in with the mythology of the class. The ac/hp buffs while nice enhance our ability to heal. In other words make the complete heal more efficient by adding extra damage to heal. I know my job and my class and what the whole reason to play it is. First and foremost I heal. Above and beyond that is icing on the cake.

Be well and safe

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro

Talyena Trueheart
07-29-2002, 12:41 PM
We can do other things but as stated not as well. We can root, fear, detect the direction of North, atone (mem wipe outside aggro range), stun, etc.

Actually, you have some of the best stuns in the game along with top of the line roots and fears, so you can't really say you don't do those things that well as another class. Atone is handy, but not completely reliable. You forgot that you can nuke, dot, ds, and invis to undead as well. Clerics are far from the one trick ponies that everyone makes them out to be, it is just that they are the only one that can really do that one trick. It is like having a talking dog, he may roll over and sit almost as well as the other dogs, but you won't be impressed by that because he can talk.

I would postulate though in conjunction with a shaman/enchanter or even a bard your ability to heal is adequate for most zones.

Hmmm, putting us with a shaman isn't making us the group healer. So lets take a druid grouped with an enchanter. Now lets send that group to CT. The druid wont be able to do more than maybe heal for the first couple of mobs at the entrance. The group would be so slow that they would be better off elsewhere. Basically, a druid is only good in a situation where the main tank is in no danger of dying without any heals. A druid can just lower the tanks downtime then. But, if you took a cleric and gave them a well equipped ranger for a tank and went to CT (with a respectable group of corse), that ranger would have very little problem playing main tank.

If they are going to make clerics even more rounded than they are, they really need to drastically increase druid (and maybe shaman) healing.

Aamadar LeCambrion
07-30-2002, 03:23 AM
Quote


Actually, you have some of the best stuns in the game along with top of the line roots and fears, so you can't really say you don't do those things that well as another class. Atone is handy, but not completely reliable. You forgot that you can nuke, dot, ds, and invis to undead as well.

I am not going to rehash this, you along with others have pointed these strengths out. I pointed them out though not so succinctly. I am sorry you have to rehash this over and over as it is allready covered.

Now for the rest you talk of CT and being the main healer with an enchanter that you cant do it or it would be to slow. The point is then what do you consider fast enough? Do you wish to heal as well as a Cleric that may not suffer downtime? What would you consider functional downtime? What heal/strategy would you require to accomplish this feat?

Quote

Clerics are far from the one trick ponies that everyone makes them out to be, it is just that they are the only one that can really do that one trick.

And your point is what here? Clerics were designed to heal I see no problem with that as it is a class defining ability for a cleric. In any situation that requires it that is what we do. As others have pointed out Cleric's are a specialist class ergo healing class.

Quote

It is like having a talking dog, he may roll over and sit almost as well as the other dogs, but you won't be impressed by that because he can talk.


The point is not only can he/she talk but how many languages does he/she speak?

Be well and safe

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro

Phidget Da Trollie
07-30-2002, 04:44 AM
Wow..peeple knowin alot abowt dat cleriks.

Shame bout dat.

Stuns are an asset, joo know it. Problem wit da stunz iz dat unlike da Chanter, dere are 2 saves to stuns, on ebery stun da cleik doez, except da level 5 one. Since dere iz a stun component and da damage component, dere are 2 saves on dis one. Da resist rates on dis are stoopitly high. Not dat dey aren't useful, but touting dem as a "sought after" ability of da clerik is being incredibly stoopit jerself.

And joo just confirmed da point meez tryin ta make wit jer arguments.

Joo don't want ta be able to heal better, joo want ta be able to heal AS WELL AS a clerik. Meez hate to tell joo dis, but at da tender level of 55 and as da shammy meez hab a great deal of trouble bein da main healer in da group as long as most of da group iz meelees. And dere are places meez DO NOT GO TO, if meez da only healer. Cuz meez knowin dat da group aint gonna survive.

Oh boo hoo...joo can't be da only healer in CT. Well joo can, joo just aren't happy wit da pace of da group.

Cry me a river. Go sumwhere where joo CAN exp den wit jer group. Sheesh. A clerik wit no clarity/slower iz gonna be hard pressed ta do more den zone mobs in CT az well. Joo people hab sum really skrewed up "we're broken" ideaz.

"Hi there I'm a druid and I want to be able to heal as fast and as well as a cleric, because just hitting the "easier" zones, or having to slow down pulls for lack of healing isn't our style. Shamans can keep groups alive better than us, so we should be able to do exactly the same as them, and never have a problem with mana regen or slowing (Because everyone knows that Shamans can Canni for mana without other group members healing them and Slow is never resisted). Those should be inherent to our class too. Oh and give us some raid defining ability so they NEED us on a raid."

Whine.................Its so high pitched it hurtz da trolly earz

Aamadar LeCambrion
07-30-2002, 05:25 AM
Phidget sir,

Calling people whiners accomplishes nothing. You lessen the impact of your points when you resort to that sort of thing sir.

I do agree though that pretty much sums up what I have seen and read posted by other druids in this thread and others. Druids need a raid defining role or feel more appreciated to be there for what they bring.

The problem if kept to that line is resolvable, the problem mushrooms when comments are made about keeping a group alive the same as or better than a cleric. In many instances this is allready the fact because of the same arguments made about the dilution of their class, i.e. right click items.

Be well and safe all

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro

kegwell
07-30-2002, 06:21 AM
Did Lower Tae room last nite, chanter, rog, war, bard, monk, cleric.
Once spawns were spread out a bit, we didnt need the chater except for kei, and we could have had a druid replace me (cleric) with no problem, as I was melee ing and nuking 90% of the time.
Clerics are needed for "overpulls" and thats about it.

Broomhilda
07-30-2002, 06:34 AM
"The problem if kept to that line is resolvable, the problem mushrooms when comments are made about keeping a group alive the same as or better than a cleric. In many instances this is allready the fact because of the same arguments made about the dilution of their class, i.e. right click items."


Well, the problem is all the druids have different ideas of what we need. So the end game argument isnt the only issue druids have. As i said before i'm happy with our raiding role, whereas others seem to want a whole new one. I'm probably in the minority though when it comes to wanting improvements for Druids in groups in general.

My issue with you having an issue with Druids able to heal better in general groups has to do with your double standard against Druids, when Shamans are as capable as you are, and definitely more capable than Druids. So if your going to tell us only a Cleric should be able to heal in a group, then you should be arguing against Shamans, but you arent. You even point out that we can heal adequately if there is a Ench bard as well, but why should we still need the ench or bard when the Shaman doesnt? Even in situations with an Ench bard, there are many instances where they are so busy with other stuff(CC mainly, buffs, etc), they dont have the time to slow each mob as well, depending on the place and the pulls. Well, lets only say it works with an Enchanter, because when a Bard is doing CC and songs, its very difficult for him to maintain slows as well. Almost every bard i've seen stops everything for when hes crowd controlling. Keep in mind the only reason i'm comparing us 3 classes is because we compete directly against each other more than anybody for the same slots in a group.

Let me explain this a little better. Druids compete directly against Clerics and Shamans for groups, mostly for a healer role(as i explained, we are rarely if ever picked up for dps) in some capacity. Why would any group take a Druid when a Cleric and Shaman can heal better than they could self-sufficiently? They dont, only when those two classes arent available is when a Druid is picked. We are clearly the least wanted priest class in groups. Even in groups with Ench's i've had difficulty being main healer in somewhat easy places like Chef in OS. So we're talking way more places than CT where Druids cant heal. Altho, it really depends on the group makeup and that goes for every situation. A good group of 60's shouldnt need much healing in most places other than CT like places, but rarely am i ever grouped with all 60's when we're talking about pickups.

Our biggest problem is we have the same mana efficiency as Shamans in terms of heals, outside of Torpor. If Torpor is considered, then they are much better healers than we are. We have no damage mitigation in the form of slow Shamans have, nor do we have the buffs to complement the melee like Haste. The closest thing we have to that is our DS, of which most people at high lvls that have DS's will tell you how little of an effect it truly has. Anyways, lets say our DS is equivalent to a Shamans haste in desirability(even tho its not). So we have Slow vs snares? Do Druid have other abilities? Yes we do like ports, evacs, root control and thats about it. Why arent i mentioning those? Because it makes me laugh when Druids point these abilties out in terms of us being desired for groups, its such a naive viewpoint its funny. Its silly to think a one time a week evac if that is a big reason why other classes would want us. Same thing with root control, since most groups wont trust a Druid w/ root CC deep in any dungeon, especialy if the mobs summon. I'd bet evac doesnt even cross half of the group leaders minds when considering a Druid in their group, what crosses their mind are the abilities that class bring to the group on an everyday basis, and sadly for a Druid all that is are mana inefficient heals, DS, snares, and regens. Again noting that dps is not what a Druid is picked up for altho we 'can' nuke.

Feel free to point out any other abilities we contribute to a group on an everyday basis that may add up or directly compare with Slow or Guaranteed healing. There arent any, its just a misconception that we can do all these things for a group, when in fact we actually contribute very little out of "all those things" on an everyday basis. We're generally thought of as sub par healers that can snare. Thats about it, and thats what we bank on in terms of getting groups.

Aamadar LeCambrion
07-30-2002, 07:08 AM
Broom if a double standard was implied it was not my intent. I did not say though that only a cleric should be able to heal a group. The gist of my posts are that a cleric should be able to keep a group alive better than either a shaman or a druid. Shamans bring a gimmick to do this by virtue of their slow, so their ability to function that way is a given. Does it upset me? No they have always had that ability and it is part of their class.

It is funny though you mentiion the thing about crowd control with enchanters and bards and my counter to that is that the shaman is usually busy with slowing the mob then when slowed can heal. That point you make is not valid. Since with a enchanter the KeI is long lasting and continuous. Mez the adds slow the mob when able. The KeI replenishes your mana this could be applied to clerics as well mana regen always makes me happy.

Shaman is slow the mob, heal when able as you root park any adds and conversely slow them, canni lost mana. Bards work a bit harder to accomplish the same thing over a longer period of time (crowd control mana regen etc). Either of the three are perfect matchups and compliments to druids and clerics. Why go it alone?

As far as explaining anything better Broom I agree druids shamans and clerics compete that is a given. Chances are this will always be the case. What is wrong with that? Competition or availability has always dictated the group structure and the choice of where you go.

As stated earlier I am all for druids having a niche in a raid situation or allowed to have the chance to be the hero if you will. I know my role and my job and whats expected of my class in that situation. I agree the same can not be said of you.


Be well and safe

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro

Broomhilda
07-30-2002, 07:36 AM
"Shaman is slow the mob, heal when able as you root park any adds and conversely slow them, canni lost mana. Bards work a bit harder to accomplish the same thing over a longer period of time (crowd control mana regen etc). Either of the three are perfect matchups and compliments to druids and clerics. Why go it alone?"


Because the group with the Shaman and the Cleric doesnt need us. Why do they need support when they can maintain heals by themself? A Shaman even with slowing can maintain heals easily, its not the same as an Enchanter or Bard. A shaman lands slow at the start, and has the rest of the time to heal. More often than not i'm not with a KEI'ing Enchanter, and in many situations the one doing CC is very busy doing exactly that. Altho i'm not saying an Enchanter doesnt have time to slow, they do while maintainig mezz. I will say however that Bards when doing CC dont have time to slow. They seem to stop everything in order to CC multiple mobs, including songs.

See, my point is that when a group can pickup one class to maintain the healing side of thing of which they do when they pickup Shamans and Clerics, there is no need for support healing in most exp groups. What exp groups tend to do is grab one of those healing classes, and surround them with as much dps as they can muster. This in turn even creates less of a necessity to heal since the faster a mob goes down the less damage it does. Groups would much rather have 1 capable healer than 2 to accomplish the same task. In the latter scenario it takes away from the exp rate of just grabbing an extra damage dealer like a rogue.

All in all though, i think the core issue is specialization is more desired than alittle bit of everything(even tho what Druids offer is far from alil of everything as i said above). When a group needs dps who do they look to? A rogue of course, then monk, mage, etc.. When a group needs healing who do they look to? A cleric of course, then a Shaman, then Druid. Almost never is a group looking for a class that can do alot of little things unless nobody else is available, and this is where we currently stand. Druids are a fill in for when a group cant find their first and second choice classes. Kinda makes sense though considering thats what being less than half as good in mulitple areas probably would mean.

A druids current abilities mostly in regards healing isnt scaled high enough to seriously be considered against what Clerics and Shamans bring to the table.

Aamadar LeCambrion
07-30-2002, 09:39 AM
I see your pespective and your argument. I hope you see mine. Thank you for remiaining civil throughout this and I enjoyed the debate.


Be well and safe

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro

Graal the Dorf
07-30-2002, 09:45 AM
Let's do some comparisons though. The melee counterpart to the cleric is a warrior. They tank and that truely is it. They do nothing else. So, going by cleric logic, they should be ten times the tank of any other melee class. Well, that just isn't the case. Even in very hard experience zones, warriors can be easily replaced by a paladin or sk.

2 words:

/disc defensive

Warriors have the exact same problem that clerics do. They are absolutely essential for raids, but a smart xp group will pick someone else if they can. The exception is CT and Ssraa.

Back to the original topic, I have had a little over a week to judge the effectiveness of torpor. It is an awesome spell, but only a so-so heal. It's main usefullness is increasing mana regen for the shaman. I would really rather be healed any other way than torpor. I go from ~180% attack speed to about 70% attack speed. That cuts my damage output and taunt by 2/3. Often what happens is I get torpored, the mob turns on one of the casters, and I can't get over there to taunt it off because I am snared. Usually when my wife says she is gonna torpor me, I tell her that I can heal myself. ;)

The side effects of torpor aren't trivial. We had someone die a couple of nights ago because my wife torpored them at the wrong time. The snare effect got them killed.

Another thing that most druids overlook is the sheer amount of work that is involved in using torpor/canni. It isn't passive mana regen, it takes constant casting of cannibalize and torpor. While doing that, the shaman can't do anything else. My wife is now constantly clicking her spells, and rarely sits down. It isn't mana regen where you can sit down, go grab and go grab a soda from the fridge real quick. Any time she isn't casting, she is losing mana.

As far as slow goes, yes it does make a shaman a better healer when you look at druids and shaman in isolation. Shaman are not the only class with slow however. Enchanters, bards, and beastlords can all cast slow, and many melee classes can proc slow. A druid/enchanter team can heal just as well (if not better) than a shaman/enchanter team. A druid teamed with an epic ranger can handle many xp camps just fine.

On another thread, I pointed out how druids are actually better choices for group healer against low damage output mobs than a cleric is, using real world (sorta ;) ) numbers to make my point. The response I got wasn't "no, you are wrong", it was "but I can get more xp by soloing than by healing a group in those zones". Hrmm, nice logic.

Someone directed a question to me somewhere above regarding why druids are picked for xp groups. Because you can do damage and also heal. The fact that you can heal when the fit hits the shan is important to those groups. Will you be generally called upon to heal in those groups? Probably not. Does the fact that you can heal get you into groups when there is already a primary healer? Yes. A monk is almost certainly going to bring more sustained damage to a group than a druid will, but when you get several adds and the group needs healing NOW, the only thing the monk can do is FD and say "consent please".

There are also many different types of druids. There is a druid that I group with occasionally that plays his druid like a cleric. He basically meds and heals. Too bad he forgets to snare, but ah well. ;) That's what root is for right? There is another druid I group with that does everything. He covers about 1/3 of my healing with NR, throws in a NT now and then, dots, snares, nukes, parks adds, thorns me, increases our mana regen by 6/tick, etc. Being able to evac out at the end of night is very nice too, at least for us dumb melees.

Healing isn't why we pick up a druid, not primarily. It is versatility. It is the ability to fill whatever role the group needs at any given time. Don't discount versatility, it gets you groups. Just like other non specialists, it makes you shine in many smaller groups compared to the specialists.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-30-2002, 10:02 AM
"Because the group with the Shaman and the Cleric doesnt need us" -Bingo. And dats how is shood be. Technically NO class should be needed, but it happenz fer da hevy stuff. Da problem, az meez iz seein here iz dat joo want to be needed MORE den wut joo are now. Joo want ta be able ta do eberyting da clerik ekwuipped group can do. But joo not realizin dat most of da groups dat have da cleriks also have da mana regen and da back up healer fer da cleriks health.

"A Shaman even with slowing can maintain heals easily, its not the same as an Enchanter or Bard. A shaman lands slow at the start, and has the rest of the time to heal" - WOW! Joo knowin too much abowt da shammys fer me. Usually wut happenz iz dat on single pullz meez not eben botherin ta slow, if da damage output iz high. In da Multiple Pullz, meez like ta slow as many of da Mezed Mobs az meez can, so dat I get da aggro insted of da chanter. If dere iz no mezzer, meez heal da tank, den back away and SIT. Den anudder person will root da first wun dat comez at me. Joo would be AMAZED at da ghetto Crowd control meez and a drood can and do tagedder.

Wut joo should be saying iz dat "A shaman even with slowing can maintain heals easily .... in the right exp camps with the right groupmembers". Now insert DRUID where joo seein Shaman, and joo hab....whaddya know??!?!?!? De EXAKT same ting. And its not alwayz abowt habbin a sekond healer. Joo Kan EASILY heal a group dat includez da nice 60 pullin monk, a Mage wit pet, a warrior, a Nekro and da bard. Dats a GRIND group, any heeler in dere will do just fine. Too bad joo don't know da gud groupz.

"More often than not i'm not with a KEI'ing Enchanter, and in many situations the one doing CC is very busy doing exactly that. Altho i'm not saying an Enchanter doesnt have time to slow, they do while maintainig mezz" - Den joo groupin wit louzee enchanters/bardz. I hate ta say dat, but its troo. Mez + Slow go hand in hand. Joo kan lock down 4 MoBs and slow all 4 (Pick da next target, cast ToT on da casters), den memblur da next kill and hab a good taunting tank. On meez bard meez kan lock down 4 critters INDEFINITELY. SoT iz just dat guud. Meez can twist in slow on anyting less den 4 critterz. A guud bard will move an add off to da side (SoT shuffles da targets), den sumwun else can root, and free da bard up. A REALLY talented bard will Charm one, sic it on da main target and lok down de udder 3 and twist in SloW or Regen.

"Groups would much rather have 1 capable healer than 2 to accomplish the same task. In the latter scenario it takes away from the exp rate of just grabbing an extra damage dealer like a rogue." - Wut joo smokin? De only instance dat meez run across fer dis, and its askin fer trouble iz frum da POWER gamerz. Ideally joo want MORE DEN ONE healer in da group. Joo want one Main and one back up. Mebbe if jer pulling MoBs in da dreadlandz dis is true, but its exp witowt da risk and meanz nuttin anyhoo. Joo REELLY want to hit da Emporer in Seb wit just a shammy heelin? Dats askin fer a nice big CR and beggin a clerik wit a clicky to get your carcass. Especially against da Chanter or da bard (aggro magnets).

"A druids current abilities mostly in regards healing isnt scaled high enough to seriously be considered against what Clerics and Shamans bring to the table" - Oh yeah, discownt all de udder abilities by just matchin up da healin. Uh huh. Very very typikal. Meez keep tellin joo, but jer not listenin.

DRUIDZ HEAL FINE IN DA EXP GROUPS.

Say it wit me again.

DRUIDZ HEAL FINE IN DA EXP GROUPS.

Wut joo are askin for iz ta be able to heal in da groupz az well az da clerik wit no slower, crowd control or mana regen, and da point joo arent seein iz dat under doze conditionz, cleriks and shammyz also CAN'T HEAL.

Too much of da solo mentality and tryin ta be "needed" fer groups too. Joo don't want to be dependent on jer udder groupmates, joo dont want ta hab ta NEED sum crowd control, or NEED sum mana regen.

Joo want ta be able to pick 5 meelees up, dump dem at jer favorite dungeon, den head in and do EVERY camp in da dungeon dat an OPTIMAL group kan do, with less den optimal people/classes.

Elawnah
07-30-2002, 10:11 AM
I know that at my level a Cleric can heal better and nuke * just as good* as me.

Judgement, anyone?

925 - 325 (Judgement) vs. 762 - 250 (Frost)

3:1 vs. 3:1

Phidget Da Trollie
07-30-2002, 10:46 AM
Name: Judgement
Level: 56
Mana: 325
Era: Shadows Of Luclin
Vendor(s): UNKNOWN (NPC DROP)
Magic Based Single Target Direct Damage
Casting Time: 4 seconds

Name: Frost
Level: 57
mana:250
Era: Ruins of Kunark
Vendor(s): UNKNOWN(NPC DROP)
Cold Based Single Target Direct Damage
Casting Time: 2.5 seconds


Of course da significantly lower castin time don't mean much. da mana cost don't mean much either. Or dat joo hab situational nukes like Scoraiae fer fire and frost fer cold. Joo know..OPTIONZ. Where anudder class has NO optionz.

Get a MoB wit sum heavy MR and clerik iz reduced to HEAL only bot. Get a drood wit a MR heavy MoB and dey switch to several different DoTs or Damage spellz.

VERSATILITY.

Get an argument.

Broomhilda
07-30-2002, 10:49 AM
"Back to the original topic, I have had a little over a week to judge the effectiveness of torpor. It is an awesome spell, but only a so-so heal. It's main usefullness is increasing mana regen for the shaman. I would really rather be healed any other way than torpor. I go from ~180% attack speed to about 70% attack speed. That cuts my damage output and taunt by 2/3. Often what happens is I get torpored, the mob turns on one of the casters, and I can't get over there to taunt it off because I am snared. Usually when my wife says she is gonna torpor me, I tell her that I can heal myself."

Well, your problem here is your only in 3 man groups. Most groups involve more than 1 melee, so the mob will just turn on the other melee and hitting at a 75% slowed rate. As far as i'm concerned, most exp mobs when slowed at that rate are 'better than mezz'd'. So honestly, taunt isnt too much of a problem in exp groups with slowing Shamans, its about hit as hard as you can unless your a rogue, since rogues need to BS. Even a caster getting hit at that rate is trivial in terms of most exp mobs.
------------------------------

"The side effects of torpor aren't trivial. We had someone die a couple of nights ago because my wife torpored them at the wrong time. The snare effect got them killed."

See, i have a problem with this. You should stipulate this and say once in a blue moon you'll have a problem with your tank being snared. More rarely than a Druid uses the evac spell i would think. Just for comparisons sake in terms of rarity of said event happening.
----------------------------
"Another thing that most druids overlook is the sheer amount of work that is involved in using torpor/canni. It isn't passive mana regen, it takes constant casting of cannibalize and torpor. While doing that, the shaman can't do anything else. My wife is now constantly clicking her spells, and rarely sits down. It isn't mana regen where you can sit down, go grab and go grab a soda from the fridge real quick. Any time she isn't casting, she is losing mana."

To me this isnt a bad thing. I'm at the keyboard anyways, and actually hate lulls in play at times. Basically i think i'd prefer it if i was constantly casting instead of sitting, and having some stuff slip my mind because of that. Anyways, i'm saying i dont necessarily look at that as bad. It all becomes routine anyways, she may be complaiining now because its new but i'm sure she'll become very used to it. Oh, and Canni V is just one shot Canni that basically takes 3/4's of their life bar, in exchange for 2m or so. Rarely do Shamans HAVE to sit because of their Canni ability.
-------------------------------
"As far as slow goes, yes it does make a shaman a better healer when you look at druids and shaman in isolation. Shaman are not the only class with slow however. Enchanters, bards, and beastlords can all cast slow, and many melee classes can proc slow. A druid/enchanter team can heal just as well (if not better) than a shaman/enchanter team. A druid teamed with an epic ranger can handle many xp camps just fine."

First, with the ranger your banking on his epic to proc, until then the mob isnt slowed and the Druid is losing mana quick from the inefficiency of his heals. Try it sometime :) . Second, with a Shaman/Enchanter, any good Enchanter would move to stuns. Stuns + Slow = no damage basically. Enchanters have alot of options, a big reason why i like that class. Also, you should also note the degree of slow each class can do, since i think a ranger and beastlord range from 30-40% or so? Shamans are way up at 75%. Thats a significant difference.
--------------------------------
"On another thread, I pointed out how druids are actually better choices for group healer against low damage output mobs than a cleric is, using real world (sorta ) numbers to make my point. The response I got wasn't "no, you are wrong", it was "but I can get more xp by soloing than by healing a group in those zones". Hrmm, nice logic."

I dont think i disagreed with you here. My only question would be, why the druid? Why not a Pally, rogue, monk, beastlord, etc. that would've improved the speed at which you killed, which meant less healing in a situation where healing isnt needed badly. All are viable choices in this scenario. Why? Because in situations like this DPS can make up for light healing much better than situations where heavy healing is required. Most classes have some form of small heal anyways.
------------------------------

"Someone directed a question to me somewhere above regarding why druids are picked for xp groups. Because you can do damage and also heal. The fact that you can heal when the fit hits the shan is important to those groups. Will you be generally called upon to heal in those groups? Probably not. Does the fact that you can heal get you into groups when there is already a primary healer? Yes. A monk is almost certainly going to bring more sustained damage to a group than a druid will, but when you get several adds and the group needs healing NOW, the only thing the monk can do is FD and say "consent please". "

I agree. But how many exp groups really require a 'secondary healing class' these days anyways? I mean do you really think Clerics need much support in exp groups in places like OS, Velks, Chardok, HS, etc? They dont. Niether do Shamans. Druids do of course. High dps class would probably be a better choice after getting 1(not 2) main healer in these places.
----------------------------

"There are also many different types of druids. There is a druid that I group with occasionally that plays his druid like a cleric. He basically meds and heals. Too bad he forgets to snare, but ah well. That's what root is for right? There is another druid I group with that does everything. He covers about 1/3 of my healing with NR, throws in a NT now and then, dots, snares, nukes, parks adds, thorns me, increases our mana regen by 6/tick, etc. Being able to evac out at the end of night is very nice too, at least for us dumb melees."

Ok, lets agree Evac is convenient but not necessarily important? I mean its not the first thing other people think of that gets us into groups. I dont disagree tho that druids play differently. We have alot of abilities, and any class that can do multiple things will all have people that do them differently. If this is to say maybe i'm not doing everything i could be, actually i do. I'm never FM, i'm a very active Druid to be honest. Even when i cant land spells on stuff and heals are covered i'll run in and start meleeing. I just dont like sitting on my butt too much. I could do more if i had better mana regen, but thats another story.
-------------
"Healing isn't why we pick up a druid, not primarily. It is versatility. It is the ability to fill whatever role the group needs at any given time. Don't discount versatility, it gets you groups. Just like other non specialists, it makes you shine in many smaller groups compared to the specialists. "

Yeah, well my problem with that is i dont belive it. Versatility is fine and dandy when your a bard. Its not when your a Druid, and thats why i believe in the issues we've brought forth. I look at a Bard as versatile in all the important abilities. I mean they have Mezz, Slow, Mana regen, soloability, DS's, etc. etc., now thats versatility. I look at us as versatile in 'convenient' abilities. Stuff like evacs/ports, snares, speed enhancements, etc. That basically sums up all of our 'other' abilities, other than the two main ones which are nuking and healing. These are the two most important abilities a Druid has and why they get groups. You can talk about the 'little things' as much as you want, but reality is its just not as important, thats why their called 'little' things.

So in nukes we do pretty well but come nowhere close to a good dps class in general exp groups(where your more than likely only getting the benefit of one mana regen, and melee are much better dps alternatives other than mage). In heals we are VERY mana inefficient, its almost a waste imo to some degree if it werent for so few classes that are considered 'healers'. We go oom very fast, so we cant really be taken seriously, only as a supporter unless there is slowing. Thats why i dont find much of what we do all that desirable in general exp groups, there are just usually better choices. As i stated in my previous post, we're the fill in when that group couldnt get their first and second choices.

I went over most of our abilities, if i missed any feel free to correct me. I just dont like it when people point out rare instances of something bad happening, or one of our spells being useful, then act as though we're important because of that 'rare' instance it occured. Which can be said for alot of our abilities.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-30-2002, 11:00 AM
Uh huh

BTW, meez wuz passed over in da group fer HS, cuz meez not an evakker. Course dat don't meen much to joo, cuz its not an "important" ability....

Elawnah
07-30-2002, 11:05 AM
Wasn't arguing at all, troll, I was stating the fact that a Cleric's nuke at the same level as me is just as good, damage to mana, and they can heal much better.

Mob has a high MR and there isn't someone with a Tash stick or there's no Enchanter? You're right, they are reduced to only being the best healer in the game still. Poor poor Clerics. =(

Phidget Da Trollie
07-30-2002, 11:13 AM
Wow...meez still hearin dat whine....Gettin higher pitched too.

Meez noticin dat joo glossed over da fakts dat joo hab da variety of nukes ta deal with situationz as dey arise. Dere goez dat damn versatility again.

Awww...Cleriks only reduced ta heelin bots. Poor dem. Awww poor druidz, only reduced to <Whatever role dey want>, poor dem.

Elawnah
07-30-2002, 11:36 AM
I haven't been whining or arguing, as much as you'd like me to. I stated the fact that damage to mana wise, a Cleric, at my level, nukes just as well as I do.

My cold nuke, Frost, is nice when I'm not fighting something that resists cold. Never said it wasn't, did I?

My fire nuke, Scoriae, is nice, but worse damage to mana ratio than Frost or Judgement. But, I can debuff FR atleast and it's fast.

Did I say I wasn't versatile? Nope. I said a Cleric nukes just as well as me at my level, and they can still heal better by a large margin.

My whole point in saying Clerics can nuke as well as me is to point out that the "poor Cleric" has the tools, just as I do, to be versitile, they just seldom use them.

A Cleric can buff great. I can buff ok.
A Cleric can nuke good. I can nuke good.
A Cleric can DS. I can DS.
A Cleric can res. I can evac/port.
A Cleric can outheal anyone. I can outheal a Ranger!
A Cleric can stun anywhere. I can stun outdoors reliably.
A Cleric can be in an AoE group. I can be in an AoE group.
A Cleric can DA. I can SoC outdoors.

Naw, Clerics aren't at all versitile.

Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that Clerics can be very versitile when they're allowed to be, just as I can when allowed to be. The problem is that Clerics aren't ever allowed to do other things besides heal because of the monopoly they have on it.

With that said, if the other priest classes could heal better, it would lead to Clerics being able to play around with the other spells they have been given, instead of being pushed into the role as the healer.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-30-2002, 12:22 PM
Ooooooh...joo knowin alot abowt da cleriks....Jer comparisonz are a tad...Mmm..off? (Like comparin Portin to Rezzin..dats just stoopit)..

A Cleric can buff great. I can buff ok. (Situational too. Cleriks buff guud HP/AC, which iz better den FR/CR, but joo own dem in doze situationz.)
A Cleric can nuke good. I can nuke good.
Joo can nuke BETTER. Not good. BETTER. Cuz joo can sekt which one ta use, and den USE it. And joo still glossed over castin timez.
A Cleric can DS. I can DS.
Since when do clerikz ds? Joo talkin Karn? Or az sumwun put it before...SHAMMY POTIONZ! Clerikz ain't DSing. Joo are smokin weerd tings.
A Cleric can res. I can evac/port.
And wut kinda comparison iz dis? It should be Cleric can REZ. I can not. Cleric can gate. I can port myself and my entire group to a variety of places.
A Cleric can outheal anyone. I can outheal a Ranger!
And dey are da healerz. I daresay joo can outheal da pally by virtue of da lower hybrid casting pool and da fakt dat dey are a MEELEE class first and healer sekond (its hard ta get dem ta sit and HEAL fer any length of time).
A Cleric can stun anywhere. I can stun outdoors reliably.
Troo. But 2 resistance checks on dere stuns (and against Magic), meanz dey resisted an AWFUL lot.
A Cleric can be in an AoE group. I can be in an AoE group.
Troo again.
A Cleric can DA. I can SoC outdoors.
I tink dis iz more along da linez of: A Clerik can DA to save demselves. I can evak/succor de entire group to save dem all.

Jer comparisonz are a tad LOPSIDED. But den I expekt no less frum joo and most on dis board.

15% of joo say "we can heal fine in exp groups", a vocal 25% of you say "Oh no we can't!! We suck so bad!!!", "20% more of you and 50% of the visitors are saying "You need a RAID level boost", dat 25% vocal minority are sayin "Shut up. We still suck and we need a boost EXPing too!!!".

Den 100% of joo on da main boardz are all sayin "I love my druid".

Its amazing dat so many 60 druidz are runnin arownd owt dere, since none of joo seem ta be able ta find EXP groups witowt gettin dem killed.

Tiane
07-30-2002, 12:34 PM
Phidget, I think I speak for nearly all of us when I say, DROP THE STUPID ROLEPLAY S*#T IF YOU"RE TRYING TO HAVE AN INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION.

Either that, or just STFU troll, since you're adding nothing to the conversation anyway.

Thanks, drv thru!

Tia

Graal the Dorf
07-30-2002, 01:03 PM
"Often what happens is I get torpored, the mob turns on one of the casters, and I can't get over there to taunt it off because I am snared. Usually when my wife says she is gonna torpor me, I tell her that I can heal myself."

"Well, your problem here is your only in 3 man groups. Most groups involve more than 1 melee, so the mob will just turn on the other melee and hitting at a 75% slowed rate."

Actually, was a 5 man group, 2 wizzys, a chanter, shaman, and me. With C3, the only thing slowing the wizzys damage output down was my taunt. Things were fine unless I got torpored and my taunt ability was lowered. My wife set up a hotkey to let the group know when I get torpored, that should help. Yes, in a melee heavy group, it shouldn't really a big deal.

----------------------------------------

"See, i have a problem with this. You should stipulate this and say once in a blue moon you'll have a problem with your tank being snared. More rarely than a Druid uses the evac spell i would think. Just for comparisons sake in terms of rarity of said event happening."

Yes, it is going to be a rare event that someone dies from the torpor snare, probably much more rare than a group needs an evac I'm guessing. What happened was my wife torpored one of the wizzys and we got trained. We couldn't handle 10 4 arms in ME at once, and the wizzys couldn't get off evac. Dead wizard. The point is, no one will ever die because you cast NT or NR on them. Torpor causing someone to die will likely be very, very rare, but it can still happen.

----------------------------------

"First, with the ranger your banking on his epic to proc, until then the mob isnt slowed and the Druid is losing mana quick from the inefficiency of his heals. Try it sometime."

We have. If we have a ranger in the group, my wife doesn't even bother to slow usually. If we are taking out harder mobs, the story changes...hell yes she is gonna slow then, assuming she can. That's something that most druids take for granted. Before a shaman gets malo, it can be very difficult to get slow to land. When a shaman casts slow 3 times and gets 3 resists, the shaman just blew 750 mana without any effect at all, besides massive aggro. Have a level 57 or so shaman try and slow a goranga hunter, or a coterie centurion. Those are slowable mobs, and slow usually lands after enough casts, but not always. BTW, ranger epic slow is 50%, BST slow is 50% at 60 and 30% at 50. Enchanter slow is 70%, costs less mana, and lasts 4 times as long as the shaman 75% slow.

------------------------------------------

"On another thread, I pointed out how druids are actually better choices for group healer against low damage output mobs than a cleric is, using real world (sorta ) numbers to make my point. The response I got wasn't "no, you are wrong", it was "but I can get more xp by soloing than by healing a group in those zones". Hrmm, nice logic."

I dont think i disagreed with you here. My only question would be, why the druid? Why not a Pally, rogue, monk, beastlord, etc. that would've improved the speed at which you killed, which meant less healing in a situation where healing isnt needed badly."

The group is eventually going to need some sort of healing, unless they want to sit on their butts or take the time to bandage up. A paladin can't med and fight at the same time, and our med cap is lower regardless. A group regen would suit this type of group perfectly, with the very occasional direct heal thrown in. This is the type of group that prefers a druid as healer.

--------------------------------------------

"I agree. But how many exp groups really require a 'secondary healing class' these days anyways? I mean do you really think Clerics need much support in exp groups in places like OS, Velks, Chardok, HS, etc? They dont. Niether do Shamans. Druids do of course. High dps class would probably be a better choice after getting 1(not 2) main healer in these places."

Most of the normal xp spots in those zones, a druid can heal just fine and still have mana left over, assuming the druid is 60. The problem I see with alot of groups with healers other than clerics is that they don't spread damage around. Just due to habit, these groups tend to have one tank take all the damage. That's great when you are with a cleric who is using CH as primary heal, but is horribly inefficient when you are not. In a melee heavy group, group regens can be incredibly power if used properly. If your melee group members aren't smart enough to figure that out, find some that are.

---------------------------------------------

"Yeah, well my problem with that is i dont belive it. Versatility is fine and dandy when your a bard. Its not when your a Druid, and thats why i believe in the issues we've brought forth. I look at a Bard as versatile in all the important abilities. I mean they have Mezz, Slow, Mana regen, soloability, DS's, etc. etc., now thats versatility."

The difference is that bards can only do 2 or 3 of those things at once, and can't cast a long duration buff that increases mana regen, and a relatively long duration buff with health regen, and a relatively long duration buff that gives a DS, etc. You only get those benefits while the bard is actively singing/playing that particular song. It takes a very good bard to keep haste song up while mezzing a couple of adds. There is no way he is also going to be able to slow a mob at the same time. Bards don't have fire and forget spells like other classes, they have to constantly maintain them. Do I think that is fair tradeoff? Yep. Do I think bards rock? Yep. Do they absolutely have to have their epic to function to their fullest? Yep. A bard without his/her epic doesn't begin to approach the power of an epic bard. But that's another subject.

I don't really disagree with you much Broomhilda, just in degree. I think that for most normal xp groups (read that as xp groups fighting stuff that is easy for them) a druid is a better healing choice than a cleric. I think that for most medium-hard groups, a druid is a better choice assuming there is a slower in the group. I think that for hard groups, and medium hard groups without a slower, a cleric will be a much better choice for healer. I don't see anything wrong with that.

People seem to think that clerics can heal without problems in CT. Most of the time a cleric is going to need good mana regen and/or a slower to keep up pulls at a decent rate. The last time I fought in CT, we had a 60 epic bard, a 60 shaman, a 60 cleric, me (60 paladin), 60 rogue, and 60 wizard. All the casters had KEI, and we had bardsong. I was the tank, and had 1250 or so AC and about 4.5k hp. We still had to med every few mobs because the healers (including myself) needed mana.

For those that think a druid should be able to handle healing in CT by themselves with no slower or mana regen, with no downtime, please share whatever you are smoking. For most other zones, that can actually happen, assuming the proper group. Of course, the response i've been getting is that xp in those zones isn't good enough, and its better to just solo.

Theofold
07-30-2002, 10:53 PM
Graal indeed has a good point there, with a regen up and a tank rotation healing is a lot less needed.

One other important point is that Slowing is a situational benefit. A slowed mobs indeeds Melee's for only 25% but casts spells just as good as ever. (ever been to CT and standing in the poison rain?)

One other important issue is that of the mindset most pick up groups have. Pick up groups like to min/max the risk/reward factor, this results in in the holy trinity syndrom.
And i have had many arguments in these groups about why exactly we needed a chanter when any class with root will do fine. Or about why we could not use........ (insert your own pick from the following classes Druid/mage/necro/Bst). Or about why we needed a monk as puller and not an SK.

In the end it is all about mindset.

Edit : Darjeeling had this suggestion on the shaman boards.
"Should be a specialized skill for shamans and druids to cast an instant "manaburn" heal. All your mana for 2x or 2.5x the amount of hps. Eg: Tank's going to die, hit manaburn, full mana bar heals 5k HPs or something. Refreshed every hour or so. Kind of like a once-an-hour ch for the non-clerics."

Phidget Da Trollie
07-31-2002, 04:01 AM
Tanks fer da contribution to da thred.

Meez may da da trollspeak (Hey, meez a troll shaman), but meez also have dat little ting meez like to call....>CONTENT<

Unlike dat little drive by tingy joo just pulled.

Broomhilda
07-31-2002, 05:48 AM
"Torpor causing someone to die will likely be very, very rare, but it can still happen"


But you have to understand why using this example is silly. Is this going to stop somebody from casting Torpor? No. Like i said i just have an issue of using rare instances of something happening, and then saying "it could" when it happens so rarely that it really shouldnt have been used as an example for why Torpor is bad. I'll bet casting Torpor in exp groups isnt really an issue for most Shaman. The positives far outweigh the negatives. Would i trade Natures Touch for Torpor? Anyday of the week, i've seen it firsthand on numerious occasions, i know its downsides, and i know its mana efficiency. ITs nowhere near as bad as some people try and make it out to be, sorry your just not gonna convince me its not a good spell or that any of my direct heals w/ awful mana efficiency are better.
----------------------------

"That's something that most druids take for granted. Before a shaman gets malo, it can be very difficult to get slow to land. When a shaman casts slow 3 times and gets 3 resists, the shaman just blew 750 mana without any effect at all, besides massive aggro. Have a level 57 -r so shaman try and slow a goranga hunter, or a coterie centurion"

Ok, first of all i group with Shamans that dont have Malo. I've seen them land slow with no problem on most occasions, especially if we're talking about general exp group mobs(like 95% of the time). Your examples again are just bad ones, no offense, but your talking about Coteries here that happen to be very MR. We cant land root w/o it breaking a few seconds later, its like trying to root/dot Elysians. I dont have enough experience with the Hunters, but i know their mean and high lvl. So i really couldnt tell you how MR they are. I'm sorry i just dont buy into Shamans cant land slow until they get Malo, or even it close to being a big issue. Btw, if your banking on the Ranger proc to slow the 4 arms, then your gonna be doing alot of healing until that slow lands from my experiences fighting the 4 Arms. Anyways, not saying it doesnt work, but i'm skeptical that its as reliable as you make it out to be.
---------------------

"A paladin can't med and fight at the same time, and our med cap is lower regardless. A group regen would suit this type of group perfectly, with the very occasional direct heal thrown in. This is the type of group that prefers a druid as healer."


Pally's have Wave of Prexus that is very good for this. It heals everyone, and like you said if the tanks know what their doing by spreading aggro it works out quite well. Even then Shamans are the perfered healers, not Druids. Remember Shamans have regen too, as well as melee buffs including Haste and a direct heal with just about the same mana efficiency as both of the Druid ones.
------------------

"Most of the normal xp spots in those zones, a druid can heal just fine and still have mana left over, assuming the druid is 60. The problem I see with alot of groups with healers other than clerics is that they don't spread damage around. Just due to habit, these groups tend to have one tank take all the damage. That's great when you are with a cleric who is using CH as primary heal, but is horribly inefficient when you are not. In a melee heavy group, group regens can be incredibly power if used properly. If your melee group members aren't smart enough to figure that out, find some that are."


I agree with spreading aggro when a Cleric is not involved. But its just routine for tanks to think one person should have aggro, and if a rogues in the group which is usually the case if i have anything to say about group makeup, then it kinda makes sense for tank to have aggro. A 60 Druid cannot heal in most of those places by themself w/o support, i'm lvl 60, and i'll tell you as a fact i cant in constant pull groups. I just wish i could emphasize to you how mana inefficient our heals are, something you keep ignoring or not addressing. You can even look at the numbers, and they'll show almost the same mana inefficiency between our 55 heal and 60 heal, so the fact that the Druid is lvl 60 doesnt make much of a difference. As i said before a 55 Shaman can keep a group up better than a 60 Druid can. They have regens as well, but people keep exxagerating how much our regens tend to heal. We HAVE to direct heal on top of our regens on most occasions, you have to realize just how slowly the regens work. You need to keep the casters up period, or one nuke by a wizard frog can instakill them so your not really relyinig on regens for them. With tanks, they have such a large hp pool that regens hardly are noticeable and over a given time, the regens just arent going to keep up. I know this to be fact through experience, which is why everytime i read about somebody breaking down our regens or DS's its almost always overexxagerated.
------------------

"The difference is that bards can only do 2 or 3 of those things at once, and can't cast a long duration buff that increases mana regen, and a relatively long duration buff with health regen, and a relatively long duration buff that gives a DS, etc. You only get those benefits while the bard is actively singing/playing that particular song. It takes a very good bard to keep haste song up while mezzing a couple of adds. There is no way he is also going to be able to slow a mob at the same time. Bards don't have fire and forget spells like other classes, they have to constantly maintain them. Do I think that is fair tradeoff? Yep. Do I think bards rock? Yep. Do they absolutely have to have their epic to function to their fullest? Yep. A bard without his/her epic doesn't begin to approach the power of an epic bard. But that's another subject."

Well, how many things can a Druid do at once? Lets say a good bard can twist 4 songs at any given time while melee'ing. A druid generally keeps up DS, regens, hp/ac buff, and is either healing/nuking/root control/snaring. A druid isnt doing all of those things, he doesnt have the mana, nor does he have the time to do all of that. So in reality that is only about 4 or 5 things in total the druid is actively maintaining which is pretty equal to the Bard. Even then the Druid generally stops nuking or healing if multiple mobs come and he has to do root control in the same manner a bard stops everything for mezz control. Do i think its harder to play a Bard? Yes. Do they deserve all the abilities they have? Yes. But that has nothing to do with my point, which is that everyone points out versatility in terms of why druids dont have an 'important ability'. We're really not as versatile as people make us out to be, a Bard is versatile, Druids are versatile when it comes to convenience like traveling, speed enhancements, snares, etc. alot of the little things. Not much in terms of everyday needs an exp group really wants over specialists. I love Bards too, love grouping with them, even ones w/o their epics make some great additions to groups since just about everything a Bard has can stack(haste, DS's, Mana regens, etc.). They are VERY group friendly(as well as excellent soloers).
------------------
"People seem to think that clerics can heal without problems in CT. Most of the time a cleric is going to need good mana regen and/or a slower to keep up pulls at a decent rate. The last time I fought in CT, we had a 60 epic bard, a 60 shaman, a 60 cleric, me (60 paladin), 60 rogue, and 60 wizard. All the casters had KEI, and we had bardsong. I was the tank, and had 1250 or so AC and about 4.5k hp. We still had to med every few mobs because the healers (including myself) needed mana."


CT is a rough place, more-so for Druids than any other class. Its an outdoor zone where Druids should excel right? Nope, they nerfed harmony so it doesnt work. The lizards are immune to fire, and unless a Druid has moonfire, they'll be outnuked by Clerics because they'll be forced into Frost. Root control just doesnt cut it here, but i'm sure a Druid will jump in saying how he CC with root deep in CT. So honestly, Clerics should be very happy they can even get a group there. Now if you wanna talk about general exp groups, i disagreed with your point that a 60 Druid can heal in most of those places you mentioned. Since you didnt say they needed support, and DRuids do need support in slow unless the group makeup is all 60. When the group is all 60 they dont need healing in alot of exp group areas, especially if they are uber. They just dont take nearly the damage lower lvl(54-59) tend to take, and maybe this is my issue. I should be grouping with all 60's, but i do pickup groups for the most part and the lvls tend to range. Even in guild groups, we're not all 60, and the makeup is pretty similar to pickups. So maybe thats why your viewpoint is different from mine in terms of general exp groups.
-------------------

"One other important point is that Slowing is a situational benefit. A slowed mobs indeeds Melee's for only 25% but casts spells just as good as ever"

Casters still melee, and can still put a hurting on people from melee when their not slowed. Personally, i prefer casters in tank heavy groups because they can be interrupted often, and they arent constantly putting out dps like a melee mob might be. The only thign that sucks about casters are their AE's, and that one big nuke that knocks your caster down to almost dead. Other than that i prefer fighting casters. Also, please dont attempt to make light of the ability to Slow.
-------------------
"And i have had many arguments in these groups about why exactly we needed a chanter when any class with root will do fine. Or about why we could not use........ (insert your own pick from the following classes Druid/mage/necro/Bst). Or about why we needed a monk as puller and not an SK."

Heh, i'd be arguing against you. You take an Enchanter over root control because mezz is a thousand times better. A druid will have a touch time root/parking 3-4+ mobs, where a chanter doesnt have nearly the issue. A druid will have to worry about summons because of the damage of the root. A druid will constantly have to worry about early root breaks. Root control doesnt stop casters from casting. Only in rare instances does root control come close to mezz, and those instances are mostly outdoor. Personally, i prefer a Chanter for chain pulls. I can chain pull as a Druid, but its usually in places like Chief camp in ME where i have plenty of room to root park the chains. I'd take the monk over the SK if you already had a tank. The monk will improve the rate at which you kill alot more, and if your talking about pulling, a monk is a much better puller generally than an SK.

I have a problem with the people who arent particular about class makeups for groups, but i'm picky. I tend to stay away from groups they put together, and i would put a few of my guildmates in this category. They tend to take whatevers available and not be particular about optimization(like take 3 tanks, as opposed to 1 tank and 2 damage dealers). I hate getting stuck in groups where pulls are literally half or 1/4 of what i'm accustomed to. You cant leave because you dont want to be rude and i'm generally a very polite person so i usually sweat it out. I know somebody will say its about enjoying yourself. Well, after my millionth exp group its become somewhat routine in terms of the enjoyment i get from them, and honestly most of the time when i'm doing an exp group i'm looking for good experience :P I've found people that put groups together and dont optimize tend to put slower exp groups together, and it can range from OK to pretty bad.

I'm not saying you dont optimize, but i will say there is a reason why somebody would rather have a monk over an SK. Or even an Enchanter doing mezz instead of a druid using root control. The more you optimize, the faster your group will go thru mobs, and the more exp you'll get overall. To me, a good exp group as opposed to a bad one generally has to do with class makeup more than anything.

Teaenea
07-31-2002, 10:04 AM
Another thing that most druids overlook is the sheer amount of work that is involved in using torpor/canni. It isn't passive mana regen, it takes constant casting of cannibalize and torpor. While doing that, the shaman can't do anything else. My wife is now constantly clicking her spells, and rarely sits down. It isn't mana regen where you can sit down, go grab and go grab a soda from the fridge real quick. Any time she isn't casting, she is losing mana.


No, you can't Canniblize while afk, but, let's face it, When she goes AFK to grab a soda, she is still gaining mana as fast as any caster that can't Canni.

Teaenea
07-31-2002, 10:16 AM
Name: Judgement
Level: 56
Mana: 325
Era: Shadows Of Luclin
Vendor(s): UNKNOWN (NPC DROP)
Magic Based Single Target Direct Damage
Casting Time: 4 seconds

Name: Frost
Level: 57
mana:250
Era: Ruins of Kunark
Vendor(s): UNKNOWN(NPC DROP)
Cold Based Single Target Direct Damage
Casting Time: 2.5 seconds


Of course da significantly lower castin time don't mean much. da mana cost don't mean much either. Or dat joo hab situational nukes like Scoraiae fer fire and frost fer cold. Joo know..OPTIONZ. Where anudder class has NO optionz.

Get a MoB wit sum heavy MR and clerik iz reduced to HEAL only bot. Get a drood wit a MR heavy MoB and dey switch to several different DoTs or Damage spellz.

VERSATILITY.

Get an argument.



I get the arguement, but, let's not leave out some important facts.

1. The Druid spell Frost is resisted very frequently. The only time druids use it is on fire based mobs. Scoriea is the nuke of choice until level 59 and we get wild fire. Fire nukes are a druids bread and butter nuke. That's why we can debuff it. Yes, we can debuff cold, but, only by using an AE Nuke. Not something that will be used.

2. Frost does 760pts of damage while Judgment does 925.

3. Judgment has a "lure" componant with it. It is resisted far less than any druid nuke.

4. Most mobs that would outright resist Judgment would also outright resist any druid nuke as well. There are a few exceptions, but not many. Certainly none I can think of during an EXP grind. Even then, Shaman and Enchanters are often present to lower MR for Clerics in their group.


It's easy to point to Spell data to prove a point when you leave out some very valid, and important information abou them.

kegwell
07-31-2002, 10:28 AM
ummmmm judgement has a total cast time of 10 seconds. They recently lowered the cast portion, but made the recast longer. So Clerics can cast this only every 10 seconds, not including the innate 2.5 second recast on all spells. And who said that Judgement doesn't get resisted much? Thats a funny one. Stuns also are a joke as far as mobs resisting them.

Graal the Dorf
07-31-2002, 11:24 AM
Broomhilda, I'm not saying torpor isn't a great spell. It is. I am saying that there are drawbacks to using it, and there are situations where it can be usafe to use. Say i'm the only melee in a group and I just pulled 3 mobs on accident. It can be dangerous to torpor me right away, but I am going to need healing. Fortunately I can heal myself if I have mana, but a warrior can't. A warrior also can't taunt by using spells from out of melee range. Torpor is an awesome spell, but it does have limitations, which you don't seem to want to acknowledge.

You mentioned the chief camp in ME. I'm assuming you mean the goranga tree in the NW corner. If you are camping that spot, you will end up fighting hunters (54-57), tribesmen (53-56), shamans (55-56), spiritseers (55?) and the chief (56?)unless you just give up and leave when one those spawns. Those can be very difficult to slow for a level 57 shaman. I know that from experience. 3 blown slows can mean a couple of people die.

I'm not saying that shamans can't land slow, it can be very difficult to land sometimes though. Usually after the 3rd resist, they give up and start using chloroblast. Shamans rely on slow to be able to heal against the higher damage output NPCs. Those are often the NPCs that have higher MR. I just think you are taking for granted the fact that slows can be difficult to land on the more difficult mobs, the mobs the shaman needs slow on the most.


There is also no way in hell I would rely on ranger slow on the 4 arms. They just hit too hard. If we are fighting toilers in ME or centis in AR, ranger slow is just fine. The centis have pathetic damage output, averaging about 25-30 DPS. I put out more damage than that. A druid can heal a few melees fighting centis just fine, I know that from experience. No mana regen, no slow, no crowd control beyond root. Those are mobs that range in level from 47-52. The same can be said of just about any camp in upper seb (not including crypt-never tried a druid healer there) and any of the spider camps in velks.

Pally's have Wave of Prexus that is very good for this. It heals everyone, and like you said if the tanks know what their doing by spreading aggro it works out quite well. Even then Shamans are the perfered healers, not Druids. Remember Shamans have regen too, as well as melee buffs including Haste and a direct heal with just about the same mana efficiency as both of the Druid ones.

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. HWoP is 650 mana. With KEI I can cast this spell about 4 times before I am OOM. Without KEI, i can cast it 3 times. If a paladin is going to sit and med the whole time, sure he can use prexus to heal a group, but he can't contribute any damage or do any tanking. He would have to med the whole time. Hybrids don't get specialization, and have a lower meditation cap. We regen mana slower than pure casters and use more per spell.

The kicker is that HWoP has a best case ratio of 6hp/mana while RotG has a best case ratio of 28.5hp/mana. With maxed healing AA a paladin would get 6.7hp/mana, while a SCRM druid would get 42.75 hp/mana. Assuming everyone in the group was down over 1200 hp and the paladin got a crit on every group member while using HWoP, his absolute best ratio would be 13.4 hp/mana. That's less than half the ratio of RoTG without any AAs. These ratios scale according to how many people in the group benefit from the healing. Why would this group pick a paladin as healer?

Let's look at the numbers shall we? HWoP is 650 mana to cast and heals each group member for 660 hp. A paladin will regen 24 mana a tick medding. Medding full time, a paladin can cast this spell every 2.5 minutes. A druid will meditate 25 mana a tick from med + 6 from cabbage. I don't know how much mana specialization saves, but I'll just say 10%. A druid can regen the mana it cost to cast RoTG in 1.7 minutes. That is 1584 hp healed a minute from the paladin medding full time and casting Prexus. RoTG alone would heal 900 hp a minute, and the druid only has to cast that every 19 minutes. That is 28 mana a minute dedicated to RoTG. The other 282 mana a minute the druid regens could be used for direct heals, NR, snare, nukes, etc.

the fact that the Druid is lvl 60 doesnt make much of a difference

You mean to tell me you don't use NR? That spell rocks. Is it as good as CE or torpor? No. But it is still much better than NT. You mention that regens take a while to heal and that you need to use direct heals. Very true, but you need to understand that regens can dramatically decrease the amount of direct heals you need to cast, especially NR. NR+regrowth covers about a third of the damage I take from unslowed centis in AR. That means you need to use directs heals 1/3 less often. If i'm splitting damage with another melee, it works even better.

Druids can be main healer without support in zones like AR, ME (against toilers at least), upper seb, velk's spiders, KC basement. I know this for a fact, because I've been in groups with a druid as main healer in all those places. Generally they had mana left over to do other things like snare and dot on occasion. You need the right group, but it can be done.

Phidget Da Trollie
07-31-2002, 11:43 AM
No use tellin dem dat Graal.

Dey don't want to hear, even frum udder druids "Yes we can be viable healers in an exp group".

Dey want to hear "Druids suck at healing so they need an exp and a raid level boost".

Point numberz at dem, give dem examples, scenarios, equipment lists, etc. etc. And you'll still hab da people dat refuse ta see dat its not WHAT dey have its HOW dey are usin what dey have.

Dey also don't want ta be told tings like "Well if you are lacking in healing then get another healer, or have the next member in your group be a healer or can contribute along those lines, or slow down the pace of your pulling", dey want to hear "Well if you are lacking on healing, its OK because you are a druid and you can do any camp in the game with any group of any type of group members and be the only healer and still be getting exp as fast as an optimally balanced group. Oh and more/same as soloing too."

Talyena Trueheart
07-31-2002, 12:02 PM
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/n2sooners/_images/troll.gif

VERY LOW SODIUM
07-31-2002, 01:03 PM
Learn a NEW dialect! Introducing: Swedish Troll!

Nu use-a telleen dem det Greel. Dey dun't vunt tu heer, ifee froom udder drooeeds "Yes ve-a cun be-a feeeble-a heelers in un ixp gruoop". Dey vunt tu heer "Drooeeds soock et heeleeng su zeey need un ixp und a reeed lefel buust". Pueent noomberz et dem, geefe-a dem ixemples, scenereeus, iqooeepment leests, itc. itc. Und yuoo'll steell heb da peuple-a det reffoose-a ta see-a det its nut VHET dey hefe-a its HOV dey ere-a useen vhet dey hefe-a. Dey elsu dun't vunt ta be-a tuld teengs leeke-a "Vell iff yuoo ere-a leckeeng in heeleeng zeen get unuzeer heeler, oor hefe-a zee next member in yuoor gruoop be-a a heeler oor cun cuntreeboote-a elung thuse-a leenes, oor sloo doon zee pece-a ooff yuoor poolleeng", dey vunt tu heer "Vell iff yuoo ere-a leckeeng oon heeleeng, its OoK becoose-a yuoo ere-a a drooeed und yuoo cun du uny cemp in zee geme-a veet uny gruoop ooff uny type-a ooff gruoop members und be-a zee oonly heeler und steell be-a getteeng ixp es fest es un oopteemelly belunced gruoop. Ooh und mure-a/seme-a es sulueeng tuu. Borkborbork"

Operaters are standing by to take you orders!! Call now and we'll throw in "Troll Latin", ABSOLUTLY FREE!

oNay useway ellintay emday atday aalGray. eyDay onday'tay antway otay earhay, evenway umfray udderway uidsdray "Yesay eway ancay ebay iablevay ealershay inway anway expway oupgray". eyDay antway otay earhay "uidsDray ucksay atway ealinghay osay eythay eednay anway expway andway away aidray evellay oostbay". ointPay umberznay atway emday, ivegay emday examplesway, enariosscay, equipmentway istslay, etcway. etcway. Andway youay'llay illstay abhay aday eoplepay atday efuseray atay eesay atday itsway otnay ATWHay eyday avehay itsway OWHay eyday areway usinway atwhay eyday avehay. eyDay alsoway onday'tay antway atay ebay oldtay ingstay ikelay "ellWay ifway youay areway ackinglay inway ealinghay enthay etgay anotherway ealerhay, orway avehay ethay extnay embermay inway youray oupgray ebay away ealerhay orway ancay ontributecay alongway osethay ineslay, orway owslay ownday ethay acepay ofway youray ullingpay", eyday antway otay earhay "ellWay ifway youay areway ackinglay onway ealinghay, itsway OKway ecausebay youay areway away uiddray andway youay ancay oday anyway ampcay inway ethay amegay ithway anyway oupgray ofway anyway ypetay ofway oupgray embersmay andway ebay ethay onlyway ealerhay andway illstay ebay ettinggay expway asway astfay asway anway optimallyway alancedbay oupgray. Ohway andway oremay/amesay asway oloingsay ootay."

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with these absolutely wonderful Trollish Dialects. Call NOW!

Elawnah
07-31-2002, 01:09 PM
I really don't think you're listening to anyones points, troll.

I'll explain it again, for the 4th time.

Ooooooh...joo knowin alot abowt da cleriks....Jer comparisonz are a tad...Mmm..off? (Like comparin Portin to Rezzin..dats just stoopit)

You're right. Comparing porting to Steamfont is stupid to compare to gaining back 96% of your exp after you die. What was I thinking??

A Cleric can buff great. I can buff ok. (Situational too. Cleriks buff guud HP/AC, which iz better den FR/CR, but joo own dem in doze situationz.)

You're right. Situational. And, I'm sorry to point out to you, Circle of Seasons (the "own" spell, as you put it.) is, 5 more to your resists than the Resist Fire and Resist Cold that a (lets say it together now) Cleric can cast.

A Cleric can nuke good. I can nuke good.
Joo can nuke BETTER. Not good. BETTER. Cuz joo can sekt which one ta use, and den USE it. And joo still glossed over castin timez.

I didn't "gloss over" casting times. My ENTIRE COMPARISON was damage to mana. Not cast times. I even said I have fast nukes.

A Cleric can DS. I can DS.
Since when do clerikz ds? Joo talkin Karn? Or az sumwun put it before...SHAMMY POTIONZ! Clerikz ain't DSing. Joo are smokin weerd tings.

Mark of Retribution

A Cleric can res. I can evac/port.
And wut kinda comparison iz dis? It should be Cleric can REZ. I can not. Cleric can gate. I can port myself and my entire group to a variety of places.

Again, what was I thinking with this one? I'll rephrase it.

A Cleric can give an entire group 96% of the experience back that they've lost should they die.
I can port twinks to NK to wait on the Spire to take them to the Bazaar.

That better?

A Cleric can outheal anyone. I can outheal a Ranger!
And dey are da healerz. I daresay joo can outheal da pally by virtue of da lower hybrid casting pool and da fakt dat dey are a MEELEE class first and healer sekond (its hard ta get dem ta sit and HEAL fer any length of time).

Actually, if you'll recall. They gave hybrids the same mana pool as their parent class. The reason Paladins, for exmaple, don't have 3100 mana like I do, is because generally they don't wear wisdom items. (Read that carefully... now think. When a hybrid is wearing "caster" gear, they can get a very large mana pool too.)

A Cleric can stun anywhere. I can stun outdoors reliably.
Troo. But 2 resistance checks on dere stuns (and against Magic), meanz dey resisted an AWFUL lot.

/sigh. How little you know. My stuns also have 2 resistance checks, against *drumroll* magic.

A Cleric can be in an AoE group. I can be in an AoE group.
Troo again.

Atleast we agree on something.

A Cleric can DA. I can SoC outdoors.
I tink dis iz more along da linez of: A Clerik can DA to save demselves. I can evak/succor de entire group to save dem all.

No. It's not along those lines. I used DA as the example because both DA and SoC are used as escape spells.

Jer comparisonz are a tad LOPSIDED. But den I expekt no less frum joo and most on dis board.

Okay. Read this carefully, please.

I am not complaining about my class. I like my class. My ENTIRE POINT has been that Clerics are versitile. Period. You'll not hear "whine whine whine, I cant heal, whine whine whine, I hate Clerics" from me. Clerics are just as versitile as I am, has been my point. So please, if you're seeking someone to argue with, look elsewhere.

Hobbo
07-31-2002, 07:17 PM
I'm not sure really what the troll is arguing about here... Are you saying a druid contributes as much to a XP group as a shaman? I didn't think anyone with any sort of objectivity could seriously believe that...

We have same heals and regens except natures touch which has same ratio as chloroblast so doesnt matter much, then druids have natures recovery where shaman has torpor (dont think I have to mention which one is better there). So if we just compare pure healing power, druid vs. shaman without torpor druids have a slight advantage, druid vs. shaman with torpor I say shaman is clearly superior. Then look at what other spells the two classes have that are useful in a xp group... druids have nothing that even remotely compares to slow + haste which are probably some of the most powerful spells in the game. You're looking at a mob that deals 25% of its damage and dies 50% faster (well not quite but the melee are dealing 50% more damage).

With that said I dont say it is impossible for a druid to heal in a xp group... it better be somewhere where the mobs hardly damage the tanks though or you are looking at some damn slow killing. What most people seem to forget also is what kind of melee and tanks you got in the group wich make a huge difference. Give me a 60 monk with 40AA and ntov+ gear and I can guarantee I wont have any problem healing him against spiders in velks, otoh that monk can solo there so I dont know what that proves really :) Change him to a lvl 56 ranger with so so equipment and I probably have a hard time keeping up with healing. Take somewhere where a shaman barley can keep up and replace him with a druid and i promise you i will be hitting that evac button pretty quick. Either that or we're gonne sit on our @#%$ 10min between each mob.

As an example we had a uber ghetto group in SG farming stuff for shawl7, if i remember right it was 2 druids 1 shaman 1 necro. Guess what spells made this group work at least somewhat decently? Yep you guessed it shaman slow + torpor (with the shaman tanking).

What people in this thread is pointing at is if shaman has all this power why are druids supposed to be satisfied with being alot weaker? Aren't there supposed to be some sort of power balance in this game? That's like if paladins did average 60dps and shadowknights 30dps and telling the SK's to quit bitching about a damage upgrade and just tell their groups to get an additional rogue to make up for the lost dmg of having a SK instead of a pally... or something =)

Miss Foxfyre
07-31-2002, 07:26 PM
<blockquote>What people in this thread is pointing at is if shaman has all this power why are druids supposed to be satisfied with being alot weaker? Aren't there supposed to be some sort of power balance in this game? That's like if paladins did average 60dps and shadowknights 30dps and telling the SK's to quit bitching about a damage upgrade and just tell their groups to get an additional rogue to make up for the lost dmg of having a SK instead of a pally... or something =)</blockquote>
Heheh, yes, there is supposed to be balance in this game, but guess what -- it hasn't arrived yet. We're still waiting on caster balance.

Graal the Dorf
07-31-2002, 10:00 PM
What people in this thread is pointing at is if shaman has all this power why are druids supposed to be satisfied with being alot weaker? Aren't there supposed to be some sort of power balance in this game?

I understand what you are saying, and agree with it for the most part. But look at it this way. Shamans fill the healer role better than druids do, very true. Anyone who disagrees with that for general purpose healing in groups isn't being honest. The difference is that the healing/debuffing/buffing role is essentially the only one a shaman has, whereas druids can fill more roles than just that one. Shamans can't nuke even as well as clerics do. They rely on dots for damage output far more than druids do. They simply do not stack well. A group with 4 shamans has 2 shamans twiddling their thumbs or casting their piss poor cold nuke. A group of 4 druids has 2 extra druids nuking, and nuking well.

If druids weren't the second best nukers in the game you are damn right it would be unbalanced to have shamans able to fill the main healer role better than druids do. The point is, druids are the second best nukers in the game.

OT: To be honest, I would prefer if my wife had NR in addition to torpor. ;) She could still torpor herself for mana (which is the real power of torpor btw) and heal me with NR. Ahhh, the best of both worlds. I really hate the slow+snare of torpor, but love what it does for her mana.

Theofold
07-31-2002, 11:14 PM
Broomhilda, I understand your point about group efficiency but in general I am a lot happier with a players from a less optimal class who knows what he/she is doing then with Ebay_chanter_01 who has no clue about what to do and why. Now maybe I am spoiled because when I am not solo’ing (for fun) or raiding I just grab whatever leftovers there are in zone X and make a group with them (Yes this results in great fun try it sometime).
Sure XP ain’t the best I could get but solo XP in Velks/FG/Seb is better then group XP anyway so I am not in it for the XP but for the fun.
(And as a sidenote This mentality about the perfect group is why the druids/mages/necros have such a hard time in getting a group)
Anyway back to the topic on hand:
I agree torpor is a fantastic spell. It is my best mana regen. It is a decent heal and it is fast and cheap (mana wise).
But it has limitations. It won’t heal fast when you need that, It won’t stack (no matter how many torpors a tank gets he still only heals 300 hp every tick) and thus it is not usefull for healing against high DPS mobs. Sure the slow helps here but the problem is the start when you need to slow the mob before you can heal the tank.
This is why you often see a second healer in these groups.

And as a side note back in the Kunark days Torpor was % wise a far better spell then it is now. Just like a few other classes the shaman class got no upgrade in both Velious and Luclin (for our spells) and we are still using the same spells we did in the kunark days (only exception here is Focus)

So to conclude Yes druids need a revamp, yes clerics need a revamp and indeed even shamans need a revamp.

Znail vh
08-01-2002, 01:45 AM
Quote by Elawnah:
------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't "gloss over" casting times. My ENTIRE COMPARISON was damage to mana. Not cast times. I even said I have fast nukes.
------------------------------------------------------------
Druids got very close to same mana ratio as Wizards. Druids can heal much better then wizards. So what says Clerics has to have worse mana ratio because they can heal better then druids?

Keryia Winterwolf
08-01-2002, 03:22 AM
Clerics. They are versatile and a good cleric in a good group can do more then just heal. Seldom do our high level clerics find they need to only heal. That normally is in a large raid situation.

Shaman. Their big thing is slow. When we go to someplace like Greigs our Shamen start to feel useless because they are so used to slowing that they don't feel like they are contributing.

Druids. We are good at trying to fit in a lot of spots but feel useless when we aren't needed to heal and when our DD's hit for all of 55 points. You only need to hit these highly resistant mobs to feel the pain. Even with Malo there are times when our spells do piss poor damage. And most classes have better buffs then ours. The exception being cabbage, most casters prefer that over Aego for the extra mana.

Torpor. Great spell love it, the shaman uses it on me all the time when I get agro....or in a old world exp zone so I can use my manastone (ok not many of those zones left but it helps).

Evacs. Great but mostly useless. In a multi group raid we don't use them, in a exp group a good one hardly ever gets overrun. Maybe need a evac once a month often not even once a month (and I'm not counting things like evac in seb at the end of the night....true that does make it easier on people but it isn't critical).

Basically clerics seem to be the most versitile mostly because if they aren't needed to heal, they stun, they can melee much better then I do (and I see them get into it) and of course cast spells like aego and stuff.

Shamans and Druids both can feel useless at times, both have their different spots. And for all that our shamans and clerics can do I'm still happy I'm a druid.

Could we be improved?...sure we all can in different ways, but how to best do it I have no idea.

Keryia Winterwolf

Phidget Da Trollie
08-01-2002, 06:38 AM
"Clerics. They are versatile and a good cleric in a good group can do more then just heal. Seldom do our high level clerics find they need to only heal. That normally is in a large raid situation." - Very troo. But den playin wit talented playerz iz alwayz a guud experience.

'Shaman. Their big thing is slow. When we go to someplace like Greigs our Shamen start to feel useless because they are so used to slowing that they don't feel like they are contributing' - Also troo. But we iz still buffin. On a raid joo need ONE Shaman, and dats it, everyting else iz just fluff.

"Druids. We are good at trying to fit in a lot of spots but feel useless when we aren't needed to heal and when our DD's hit for all of 55 points." - Wunderin why joo didn't throw in mages dat can't summon pets cuz dey path bad. Or cleriks dat get resisted completely on dere nukez as well.

"You only need to hit these highly resistant mobs to feel the pain."
- Dats not a DRUID only angst. EVERYONE hates resistant MoBs. Resistant MoBs mean no slow, and dat meanz more chain heelin, and dat meanz OOM. Its not a DRUID only phenomenon.

"Even with Malo there are times when our spells do piss poor damage."
- Again, dats NOT a druid ONLY problem. And druidz aren't da most "impacted by it". How joo tink a mage feels knowin he CAN'T land a single spell? Come here little Mod Rod Dispenser...cuz dats all joo can do.

"And most classes have better buffs then ours. The exception being cabbage, most casters prefer that over Aego for the extra mana"
- Dependz on da buff and da situation. Do joo stat buff az guud az da shammy? No. Do joo HP/AC buff az guud as da clerik? no. Do joo mind buff az guud az da Chanter? No. Do joo HP/AC/STAT/MIND buff? yep. I don't tink I can do all dat. Dont tink clerikz can eeder. Chanterz can stat buff, but its +10 STR. See..joo can do SOME of all of dat, where de udder classes can either do one or de udder but not all 3.

"Evacs. Great but mostly useless. In a multi group raid we don't use them, in a exp group a good one hardly ever gets overrun. Maybe need a evac once a month often not even once a month (and I'm not counting things like evac in seb at the end of the night....true that does make it easier on people but it isn't critical)."
- Meez lub how druidz gloss ober dis one. Its da same ting wit Summon corpse. When joo NEED it, joo NEEEEEEEEEEEED it. Becuz its not used az often az joo would like its value iz not ta be underrated becuz of dat fakt. Of course only droods are sayin how much Evacs and ports suk. All de udder classes say it rocks. And who would know better da value of a spell in a group? Da group? or da druid?

"Basically clerics seem to be the most versitile mostly because if they aren't needed to heal, they stun, they can melee much better then I do (and I see them get into it) and of course cast spells like aego and stuff"

- ROFLMAO. Yeah. Joo hab jer hits turned off I take it. Eber see a clerik meelee wit da hits turned on? Whiff, whiff, Whiff, 2 pts, Whiff, whiff. Cleriks da most versatile. WOW. Joo smokin sum guud crap. Dats da best line meez heard in dis whole debate. One of da tingz dat eben DRUIDZ are sayin iz dat cleriks are too one dimensional.

"Shamans and Druids both can feel useless at times, both have their different spots. And for all that our shamans and clerics can do I'm still happy I'm a druid"
- Dats da key rite dere, but no one wants ta hear it. Shamans and druidz do feel useless at timez and in areaz. Heck eben cleriks feel useless at timez. When jer Slowin a MoB, mana regen iz at full. Joo hab a ,monk pullin, a 60 warrior tankin and a rogue assassinatin, wut kinda heelin joo need?

Da whole point dat Phidget tries ta get across, and peeple alwayz tryin ta sidetrack it iz
- "DRUIDS KAN AND DO HEAL FINE IN EXP GRIND GROUPS" -

But wut alot of folkz are sayin iz dat dey don't like just bein able ta hit a "selected number of exp rind areas because of a lack of healing", dey want to hear "YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE, WITH ANY COMBINATION OF GROUPMEMBERS AND YOUR HEALING WILL BE FINE, AND THE PACE WILL NOT SLOW DOWN, AND YOU WILL BE ABLE TO GET MORE EXP GROUPING THEN SOLOING". Dey don't want to HAVE to have a slower. Dey don't want to HAVE to hit only Velks, HS, KC, ME, FG, The Grey, etc. Dey also want to do da hardest camps in da game as teh ONLY healer.

I sed it before. Dere are people dat are nice an vokal here at want to be able ta pick up 5 random MEELEES and hit ANY spot in da game and perform az well az an optimal cleri/chanter equipped group.

And dats just bein stupid.

Raids need to be tweaked, bein a taxi fer da raid kinda sucks. Everywun SHOULD have a role at da raidz and dat includes SKs, rangers, Pallys. But because folks are sayin dat dey CAN heal in EXP groupz why da heck joo tryin ta get upgrades dere?

Keryia Winterwolf
08-01-2002, 06:57 AM
Well I didn't mention mages because the talk has been about healing and wisdom casters. Of course everyone feels the pain when their dds don't hit. What I was trying to point out is the different times that each class feels useless and what some classes can do.

Many good clerics will say they're more versatile then people think, that they always have something they can do to feel like they are contributing.

And on raids we like more then one shaman, one will slow, one will malo, one will root and park adds, torpor on casters. We can make use of more then one shaman just like we make use of more then one druid.

And I didn't gloss over evacs....I just said they aren't needed or used much. They are awsome when you do need one, but when a druid is needed for damage and gates then a wizard fits the bill much better especially since they have translocate.

As for the word versitile. Versitile doesn't mean spell list, if you want to go by pure spell list for solo play then druids have it. IF you want to talk about what they do in groups then you should see some of what our clerics can do. Seriously I've never ever heard a cleric feel like they are useless even if we have a abundance of clerics on. I have heard shamans, druids, mages say that. Don't need heals, they stun, root, melee, buff, etc....in a group clerics always find something to do if they are good and work at it, solo druids are the most versitile. If people don't need your heals, others buffs are better, your damage shield isn't needed and your dd's don't hit and you have one or more wizards there, then what do you do?

Personally I am impressed with just what a good cleric can do, they've showed us all a thing or two about how to be versitile when people think you are a one trick poney.

Hobbo
08-01-2002, 07:51 AM
"I sed it before. Dere are people dat are nice an vokal here at want to be able ta pick up 5 random MEELEES and hit ANY spot in da game and perform az well az an optimal cleri/chanter equipped group."

Who the hell is saying that? All I'm saying at least is anywhere a druid is doing ok as only priest class in a XP group replace him with a shaman and you're doing twice as good. If you have a chanter for haste/slow that lessens the gap, agreed. What I'm seeing more and more though is that in the easy xp zones like FG many people dont want full groups but just duo partners. It's especially in a duo situation a shaman blows a druid (and a cleric) out of the water.

vetoafauna
08-01-2002, 08:16 AM
"The exception being cabbage, most casters prefer that over Aego for the extra mana"

not really anymore :mad: with the event of mgb, there's a cleric casting ae aego every 20 minutes and it isnt worth trying to keep potg up because you lose like 700hp without symbol (and clerics will tell you to piss off if you have to ask for marzin every couple minutes). add to that KEI, mod rod 2, and aa skills and the 6 mana per tick is barely worth the effort. on raids the only class i ever give potg/c to is wizards... and thats only some of the time. i dont even keep it up on myself with the exception of specific fights where i'll need all the mana i can get over a long duration and wont need hp.

vetoafauna
08-01-2002, 08:53 AM
"Clerics. They are versatile and a good cleric in a good group can do more then just heal. Seldom do our high level clerics find they need to only heal. That normally is in a large raid situation." - Very troo. But den playin wit talented playerz iz alwayz a guud experience.

why play with anything but talented players? nobody is forcing anyone to team with gimps.

'Shaman. Their big thing is slow. When we go to someplace like Greigs our Shamen start to feel useless because they are so used to slowing that they don't feel like they are contributing' - Also troo. But we iz still buffin. On a raid joo need ONE Shaman, and dats it, everyting else iz just fluff.

if you think raids only need 1 shaman than you havent been on any high end raids. shamans can not only outheal anyone but clerics in most raid situations (which stacks), but 1 shaman will have his work cut out for him trying to keep focus and sta up on 50 people, especially if people are dying from time to time. But thats not the main reason you need more than 1 shaman on a raid, you need multiple shamans because of their debuffs. debuffs draw aggro, and they can be resisted. If the same shaman wants to malo, malosini, and slow something like a flurry drake, they wont last 2 seconds from the aggro (even if sini isnt resisted)... then who's gonna slow, the chanters? multiple shamans are NEEDED to make sure debuffs and slow land as soon as possible and stay up on pretty much any big mob. Add to this mobs like aaryonar or shei vinitras (traps) where shamans are oom from AE's and others need to sub in to take their place on debuffs.

"Druids. We are good at trying to fit in a lot of spots but feel useless when we aren't needed to heal and when our DD's hit for all of 55 points." - Wunderin why joo didn't throw in mages dat can't summon pets cuz dey path bad. Or cleriks dat get resisted completely on dere nukez as well.

"You only need to hit these highly resistant mobs to feel the pain."
- Dats not a DRUID only angst. EVERYONE hates resistant MoBs. Resistant MoBs mean no slow, and dat meanz more chain heelin, and dat meanz OOM. Its not a DRUID only phenomenon.

if you chain cast 5 nukes and do a total of 200 damage from resists, you've wasted alot more mana than someone that had to cast slow 5 times before it landed. why? because debuffs only have to land once (until they fade) where as each nuke is as important as the next that it hits for full.

"Even with Malo there are times when our spells do piss poor damage."
- Again, dats NOT a druid ONLY problem. And druidz aren't da most "impacted by it". How joo tink a mage feels knowin he CAN'T land a single spell? Come here little Mod Rod Dispenser...cuz dats all joo can do.

mages are in the same boats as clerics. a cleric never gets to nuke because they constantly have to heal. a mage never (rarely) gets to nuke because they are constantly dropping mod rods. 56 rods add so much to a raid it aint even funny, alot of higher end mobs arent even doable without 2-3 mages doing nothing but chain casting and dropping

"And most classes have better buffs then ours. The exception being cabbage, most casters prefer that over Aego for the extra mana"
- Dependz on da buff and da situation. Do joo stat buff az guud az da shammy? No. Do joo HP/AC buff az guud as da clerik? no. Do joo mind buff az guud az da Chanter? No. Do joo HP/AC/STAT/MIND buff? yep. I don't tink I can do all dat. Dont tink clerikz can eeder. Chanterz can stat buff, but its +10 STR. See..joo can do SOME of all of dat, where de udder classes can either do one or de udder but not all 3.

but when all the other classes are available to buff, guess what druids are good for? pretty much nothing, aside from the rare potc and circle of seasons (laugh)

"Evacs. Great but mostly useless. In a multi group raid we don't use them, in a exp group a good one hardly ever gets overrun. Maybe need a evac once a month often not even once a month (and I'm not counting things like evac in seb at the end of the night....true that does make it easier on people but it isn't critical)."
- Meez lub how druidz gloss ober dis one. Its da same ting wit Summon corpse. When joo NEED it, joo NEEEEEEEEEEEED it. Becuz its not used az often az joo would like its value iz not ta be underrated becuz of dat fakt. Of course only droods are sayin how much Evacs and ports suk. All de udder classes say it rocks. And who would know better da value of a spell in a group? Da group? or da druid?

evacs are useless when you have more than 1 group. evacs are useless when you dont absolutely have to cast them. they're great when you actually do need them, but honestly i havent used one in many months because they're totally useless on raids and in groups they're VERY situational. not to mention, we share this ability with wizards.

Da whole point dat Phidget tries ta get across, and peeple alwayz tryin ta sidetrack it iz
- "DRUIDS KAN AND DO HEAL FINE IN EXP GRIND GROUPS" -

exp groups, sure. but what happens when a druid needs to keep up with ae damage from AL on a full group? or AoW ripostes on a couple melees? or even the aes in HoT or north tov? we cannot do our job, and thats all there is to it. we're expected to fill the role of a healer because not every raid can have 12 clerics, but we cannot heal well enough to serve our purpose.

Raids need to be tweaked, bein a taxi fer da raid kinda sucks. Everywun SHOULD have a role at da raidz and dat includes SKs, rangers, Pallys. But because folks are sayin dat dey CAN heal in EXP groupz why da heck joo tryin ta get upgrades dere?

being a taxi for a raid is kinda hard when you cant port anywhere to the newest expansion. and what little porting needs done most guilds do with "pocket druids" being 2 boxed. As for SKs, rangers, and paladins.... SKs and Paladins can add tank ALOT of stuff and if you've ever fought mobs like HP, creator, pretty much ANY ring encounter, shei vinitras, etc (almost any luclin mob), they are absolutely necessary because of their ability to taunt faster than any other tank class (without wasting ae taunt). both SKs and paladins can produce amazing dps now, too, paladins especially with slay 3. Rangers with AM3 and EQ have the best DPS in eq, higher than any rogue or wizard in most situations. Druids might be able to heal alright in select grind areas, but our weak heal spells leave us lacking on raids, and this is where we need an upgrade


edit: the TRUE problem with grinding is that you dont get any better experience from fighting higher level mobs. a level 60 can get more experience mowing through crap in sebilis or FG rather than grinding on high 50's/60 stuff in a full group of 60s with a cleric/shaman/chanter etc.... if verant were to fix the exp tables such that difficult mobs were worth significantly more experience than level 45-50 crap, a druid or shaman would NOT be able to fill the role of a healer for a good experience group (think something like umbral planes)... and the way it is now, clerics are getting butted out because their calibur of healing isnt needed to kill stuff that doubles for 120. monks and SKs get better experience soloing in FG than any druid can soloing or any cleric can grouping (with a few exceptions, maybe CT). This is where the true problem is in EQ that makes it so hard to balance raid vs grind without ganking specialty classes.

Mikar
08-01-2002, 02:23 PM
I agree with the last edit.

The fact that *low* blue mob generally are the best exp is sickening. Killing tough mobs that actually challenge your group should be the best exp. A night of exping should be killing 40 mobs - not 400 - but killing these 40 should feel like we did something.

But, sadly thats not the case.

Oldoaktree
08-01-2002, 03:11 PM
exp groups, sure. but what happens when a druid needs to keep up with ae damage from AL on a full group? or AoW ripostes on a couple melees? or even the aes in HoT or north tov?

Even that point is not universally agreed upon or at least comes with caveats.

The caveats are generally : IF there is a slower, IF the melee are high enough level/well geared enough to take little dmg, IF the druid is well geared enough and has good brain buffs.

And while that would seem to cover a wide gamut of experience groups, the point that keeps coming up...and I think which is the cause of so many posts back saying "that ain't so" is that a bunch of the non druids are posting, more or less, that most or all druids can heal fine in almost all experience zones with or without a slower with almost any type of group mix and with little or no down time.

THAT is certainly not true.

With the right group I can heal ok in most exp zones with some downtime. And my restrictions on being able to do so are much more significant than a shaman's (not even bothering to mention the clerics).

Shayariel
08-01-2002, 09:25 PM
Dear lil Shammie Troll,

Sorry, but I refused to read all your posts because I am used to High Elven tongue.

But, if the caster Balance will go like Melee balance, where Knight classes where made nearly equally good tanks as Warriors in all situations but disc. def. requirering encounters, we will see healing upgrades to Dru and maybe also Shm that will make them "nearly equally good" healers as Clerics in all situations but CH Chain requirering encounters.

I for one, as a melee, am pretty pissed about being forced to have a Cleric (and in my low state of the game - HoT/Vindi are highest targets for me - a Enc/Shm to slow too), to wait for hours for one to get on or to be willing to join my group, and even more pissed about having to leave and search for reps for hours often times when the Cleric has to go.
I want to see that EQ has 3 healer classes as it has 3 tank classes. On the other hand I want to see that EQ has 3 classes that can benefit as much as a chanter (CC, KEI and slow/haste in on char is godly as all are requiered, and I think that Shamans loose xp-group spots only to Encs).
Against the targets our guild goes, we can often times go without a Warrior as MT, but take me, a Paladin in not even full HoT gear. I want to be able to do those raids with Warriors but - no offense to that class, I mean if you're simply not on or cannot come to raid for whatever reasons - not Clerics for example (though people will mourn about the 6% xp loss if they have to take Paladin rezzes).
I can start a not uber raid without any Druid, Shaman, Bard, Necro, Mage, etc., but not without Cleric, at least one Enchanter. Any tank on is enough, add a few dmg dealers and the raid is a go. That is plain wrong!

Shayariel Arrowkeeper
Crusader of Tunare
MithMarr

Graal the Dorf
08-02-2002, 07:28 PM
if you think raids only need 1 shaman than you havent been on any high end raids. shamans can not only outheal anyone but clerics in most raid situations (which stacks)

I believe the original comment about shamans twiddling their thumbs was based on unslowable mobs. If a mob is unslowable, a shaman can't do much to it beyond cripple. Enchanters can cast that spell too. Mages can mala. Shamans can still buff, and those buffs will always be needed so I don't see it is that big of a deal.

Druids have better direct heals than shamans do, so I'm not sure how shamans outheal anyone but clerics on raids. It isn't canni, mages lay out tons of modrods in nifty patterns, which basically eliminates the canni advantage during raids. Torpor can only be cast in group, and no, it doesn't stack. It's a very nice heal for casters in the group, but that is the limit of its functionality on raids. Shamans generally don't heal melee on raids. Clerics or druids do. Shamans are much less flexible healers than druids are, and heal much slower.

I'm not saying shamans don't have a very defined role on raids, but to say that they can raid heal better than druids I think is wrong. I also don't think shamans stack on raids nearly as well as druids do. My wife's job on raids is to shrink people getting CoHed in and to heal the modding CoH mage. ;)

The last raid we were on was burrower parasite. The warrior in her group told her: "if you torpor me, I'm gonna fly to your house and kick your @#%$."

Elawnah
08-03-2002, 12:28 AM
Druids have better direct heals than shamans do, so I'm not sure how shamans outheal anyone but clerics on raids.

While I do like reading your posts Graal, and I do think you have valid points, that statement is incorrect.

Druids and Shaman get the exact same healing spells at the same exact levels until level 60. Where Shaman get an incredibly awesome heal (albiet, rare/expensive) and Druids get Chloroblast x2.

Natures Touch.
Heals 978 for 400 mana 5.5 cast time and 2.5 recast

Chloroblast
Heals 428 for 175 mana 3 cast time and 2.5 recast

Hell, if Shaman don't like Torpor, trade me that for NT. ^_^

Oldoaktree
08-03-2002, 01:50 AM
Quote:
mages lay out tons of modrods in nifty patterns, which basically eliminates the canni advantage during raids

At least in my guild, casters can get a mod rod before a fight begins and hold it. After the fight starts, any and all mod rods dropped are for clerics. Period.

Just a small point but a significant one. I suppose it depends on how many mages you have, but if we have more than say 2 mages there, the others will be nuking not making more mod rods so druids can have some too.

And even if you are doing a target mob that is unslowable (truly and verifiably unslowable rather than just hard to slow), the sheer number of buffs that shamans have to cast...even with MGB and group focus...is enough work to keep several busy during a raid.

But I have yet to experience any raids other than target mobs where inability to slow is a pervasive problem. (Flurry drakes in NTOV I guess? but other stuff is slowable). MOST stuff in the game can be slowed. It is the exception that it can't...and it is generally just one fight of many on a raid, even if it is the main event.

Cassea
08-03-2002, 03:07 AM
Graal,

Druid do not have a better heal than Shamen.

We have a spell with the same mana/heal ratio that heals for a larger amount in a longer time.

There is a big difference.

On raids Druids cast the very same direct heal that you do as that level 60 heal is a POS. It's two heals in one with twice the mana cost.

Not having any other types of heals or a way to recover mana fast is what kills us on the big raids.

What is also silly is that if Druids convince Verant to fix healing it will most certainly cause Shamen to get better heals also so...

WHY IN THE HELL ARE TWO HEALING CLASSES THAT BOTH ARE BEING CRIPPLED BY LACK OF COMPLETE HEAL (or percentage based heal) YELLING AT EACH OTHER!!!!

Sorry - I just had to shout that. Why don't Shamen and Druids just go out back and shoot each other and get it over with :)

The problem at high level in EQ is Complete Heal! It now so powerful that no other heal matters on high level raids.

We are on the same side. Yes Shamen have a few other things to do on raids but that does not mean we need to fight over heals.

You do not fix Druids by putting down other classes.
You do not fix your own class or if your class is balanced keep it that way by trying to keep Druids down.

Theofold
08-03-2002, 03:25 PM
Psssstt......

the problem is that when VI adjust healing for raids they have to unbalance the healing for grouping situations.
They only way that they can fix that is by removing other abilities from the class that gets a better heal and thus you end up as a cleric that can cast sow. (in an extreme case)

That and only that prevents a reall sollution. If you want to be able to fullfill a beter healing role in a group that is understandable (maybe even needed to some degree (yes i still believe a druid is a great group member when well played, at least the druids in my guild are)) but asking for a better healing role in a raid situation is asking for the impossible in my opinion (for druids, palladins and shamans)

PS As far as I go they can give torpor to the druid class, that would make a lot of people here see how overrated that spell actually is.

Oldoaktree
08-03-2002, 11:03 PM
the problem is that when VI adjust healing for raids they have to unbalance the healing for grouping situations.
They only way that they can fix that is by removing other abilities from the class that gets a better heal and thus you end up as a cleric that can cast sow. (in an extreme case)


The logic is squirrely there.

At this stage, the group either already has a cleric (or a shaman) and so the druid healing is irrelevant, or the group is relying on a druid (with maybe a pally for backup) which can mean a lot of downtime.

Increase druid healing when there is a cleric already there? The world changes not at all in exp groups.

Increase druid healing when there is a shaman already there? Mobs are being slowed and you have two healers...it once again won't matter much.

Increase druid healing when there is only a druid there? Well it might make it possible for a druid healer to go to slightly more difficult exp camps. Not the hardest exp camps, but harder ones.

Not exactly throwing the game world out the window.

Graal the Dorf
08-04-2002, 01:53 PM
Druid do not have a better heal than Shamen.

We have a spell with the same mana/heal ratio that heals for a larger amount in a longer time.

There is a big difference.

On raids Druids cast the very same direct heal that you do as that level 60 heal is a POS. It's two heals in one with twice the mana cost.


It's not the same direct heal I cast, my direct heal is sup heal. ;) I'm not a shaman.

NT is a much better heal than chloroblast in terms of hp healed per second. Mana efficiency isn't nearly the concern on raids that is in xp groups. How quickly you can heal is much more important than efficiency most of the time. In those situations where thatisn't the case, you have the same direct healing efficiency that shamans do.

Oldoaktree, generally on the raids I've been on recently you can't take a step without tripping over modrods. Maybe there is an abnormal amount of mages on those raids, I don't know. When there are fewer mages, I'm sure that canni creates a much larger increase in mana regen for shamans than for druids. When modrods are available whenever needed, that advantage doesn't exist. BTW, mystical transvergence gives a much greater amount of mana returned per hp than canni does.

Oldoaktree
08-04-2002, 03:30 PM
Modrods are about how many clerics you have and how long the fight will be.

If it is a short fight, you probably won't need more than the one rod you had pre-fight.

If it is one of hte 20 min type fights, clerics will use any last mod rod they can get, and mages will go oom from summoning them. They are a limited resource. And if 4 or 5 clerics are trying to get them but they are being gobbled up by 4 or so druids, similar number of wizzies...well you begin to see the problem.

Hobbo
08-04-2002, 07:24 PM
"the problem is that when VI adjust healing for raids they have to unbalance the healing for grouping situations."

Not true. My proposal for a new heal would be to change nature's recovery to a group heal. Still heals 900 but change duration to 1min and remove recast time. Not sure what would be appropriate mana cost for this, 600 maybe? This heal would imo be worthless 90% of the time in a xp group but great for keeping a group alive against an AE mob, the role druids most often are set to do on a raid. I presented this idea on the cleric boards once and was fairly well recieved so I guess wouldnt step on the clerics toes too much ;)

Wicked
08-04-2002, 09:08 PM
"But, if the caster Balance will go like Melee balance, where Knight classes where made nearly equally good tanks as Warriors in all situations but disc. def. requirering encounters, we will see healing upgrades to Dru and maybe also Shm that will make them "nearly equally good" healers as Clerics in all situations but CH Chain requirering encounters."

Making other healing classes "nearly equally as good as clerics" minus CH is pretty much ridiculous. Stick in any class in that statement and it sounds ridiculous. You might as well remove the cleric class from the game then by your reasoning. You can't expect to give other classes all the bells and whistles -minus CH and expect that to be balanced. That goes for any other classes.

"I for one, as a melee, am pretty pissed about being forced to have a Cleric (and in my low state of the game - HoT/Vindi are highest targets for me - a Enc/Shm to slow too), to wait for hours for one to get on or to be willing to join my group, and even more pissed about having to leave and search for reps for hours often times when the Cleric has to go."

Are you also pissed when you can't raid because you don't have enchanters ?

Are you also pissed when you can't raid because you don't have warriors ?

Are you also pissed when you can't raid because you dont' have shamans ?

Are you also pissed that you can't raid because theres no mages for mod rods ?

The game is based on grouping and class inter-dependence, if you don't like it, you're playing the wrong game. EQ has always been about grouping and classes.

" want to see that EQ has 3 healer classes as it has 3 tank classes. On the other hand I want to see that EQ has 3 classes that can benefit as much as a chanter (CC, KEI and slow/haste in on char is godly as all are requiered, and I think that Shamans loose xp-group spots only to Encs)."

By your logic your might as well reduce all eq classes to 1 class that can do everything because you're removing the main idea for choosing a certain class.

"Against the targets our guild goes, we can often times go without a Warrior as MT, but take me, a Paladin in not even full HoT gear. I want to be able to do those raids with Warriors but - no offense to that class, I mean if you're simply not on or cannot come to raid for whatever reasons - not Clerics for example (though people will mourn about the 6% xp loss if they have to take Paladin rezzes)."

Hate to break it to you, but in the high end game you pretty much can't go without a Warrior/Def combo. Guess what, no warriors? No raid then. Its just not a cleric issue, many classes are important and if you don't have enough of them you simply can't do certain raids.

"I can start a not uber raid without any Druid, Shaman, Bard, Necro, Mage, etc., but not without Cleric, at least one Enchanter. Any tank on is enough, add a few dmg dealers and the raid is a go. That is plain wrong!"

Even in a 'non-uber' raid you're still going to need sufficient classes regardless if its a cleric, a shammie, and ench, etc. When you enter the luclin high end content such you'll find out the hard way that not only is just simply clerics, its enchanters, shamans, warriors, tanks, mages, and yes even druids. You lack in one area and your raid is hosed.

There is nothing 'wrong' with encounters that require certain classes. Thats the way the game is designed and always has been. Without doing so would hugely reduce the difficulty in the examples and would make most encounters trivial.

So you may be pissed about it, but Verant designed this game with grouping in mind and made advantages and disadvantages to every class. My suggestion is if you're lacking classes that bad, is to add some because the further you go up on the high end content chain, the more inter-class dependency there is.

Talyena Trueheart
08-04-2002, 10:27 PM
Are you also pissed when you can't raid because you don't have enchanters ?

Been there, done that. Sucks not to have kei and sos, but all you really need is one enchanter to cover that. If not, you still have bardsong and shaman haste. But if mana is a problem, just add a few more clerics.

Are you also pissed when you can't raid because you don't have warriors ?

Don't need them most of the time. And even if you do, one to three is usually plenty. If there is no warrior though, use a paly or sk and just add a few more clerics.

Are you also pissed when you can't raid because you dont' have shamans ?

Been there, done that. Enchanters can slow too. Sucks not to have all the stat buffs, but you can get by. But even when you do need them, one to three is usually enough. And if hp are lower because of the lack of buffs, just add a few more clerics.

Are you also pissed that you can't raid because theres no mages for mod rods ?

Been there, done that. Sucks not to have CoH, but you can always fall back on necros for extra mana, or just add a few more clerics.

Hate to break it to you, but in the high end game you pretty much can't go without a Warrior/Def combo. Guess what, no warriors? No raid then.

Defensive helps make it easier on clerics, but without defensive, just step up the healing some. I know when we have fights and defensive runs out, the clerics just step up the rotation a bit and keep that warrior alive. It is much less messy than switching. Without defensive, any tank can take a hit as well as a warrior, and most can control aggro much much better. And aggro control is often more important than the slight hp edge warriors have. No good to have a CH rotation on that massive hp warrior if the mob is beating on someone else.

Oldoaktree
08-04-2002, 11:38 PM
Well posted Tal.

Basically I agree on all points. Clerics are the ONLY class you cannot raid without at all.

And while you may need one to say three of other classes on other raids, for those same fights you need about 6 or 7 clerics.

Anyone who tries to sweep how busted CH makes the game under the rug is only fooling themselves.


Quote:
By your logic your might as well reduce all eq classes to 1 class that can do everything because you're removing the main idea for choosing a certain class.

Nothing of the kind. While the game has been headed that way at least since Luclin, each class really can still be unique. All the prior post really said was that the game was meant to be about class INTER-dependence, not class DEPENDENCE the way it is now with clerics.

Tils
08-05-2002, 12:36 AM
I dont agree with most of Talyena's points.

If you do the high end stuff you do need Sos, Shaman Slows, Warriors yes probably you dont have to have mod rods but they make hella difference to a high end battle and a lot of the time do make the difference between win or lose.

But im talking stuff like Ssra mobs (not rhags) and Aow etc not the lower end stuff like Vindi, Zland, Woushi :P etc which for a guild who kills the high end stuff could be killed with 1-2 groups anyway.

"use a paly or sk and just add a few more clerics"

Fancy putting a Pally onto Aow and tank it the whole battle? Youll need more than a few more clerics hehe.


Tils

Gestalt Killer
08-05-2002, 06:17 AM
I know this is about 2 pages late, but I just now saw the thread and read it all through *head really hurts, geesh*.

I dunno where Mr Troll got his spell data, but Frost is NOT cast in 2.5 seconds. Try 6.0 on Frost without spell haste, so it's not a quick nuke.

Cassea
08-05-2002, 06:53 AM
Tils,

Define "high End" so we all are on the same page here.

Every assumes we all know what each other thinks.

The point is that "most" encounters can get by with a missing or low numbers of a class by compensating.

You cannot currently compensate for lack of clerics.

Every other class has a backup except '02 Clerics. '99 and '00 had backup cleric classes (Druids/Shamen) and in late '00 it was over. CH took over the game.

Tils
08-05-2002, 07:25 AM
I already have defined it...read again ;)

Tils

Oldoaktree
08-05-2002, 08:11 AM
I am not foolish enough to think that you don't need good class mix for the hardest stuff in the game (though Furor did that long diatribe about how monks are better MA's in his guild than warriors are at this point make of that what you will).

But it is a simple fact that even the easiest raids in the game need x number of clerics while EVERY other class can be covered for by a mix of other classes.

The primary class for an ability is always the best choice, but for MOST of the game content they are not the ONLY choice. Clerics are the only class for which that is true.

Wicked
08-05-2002, 08:15 AM
Well I don't think I agree with a single thing Talyena has stated.

"Been there, done that. Sucks not to have kei and sos, but all you really need is one enchanter to cover that. If not, you still have bardsong and shaman haste. But if mana is a problem, just add a few more clerics."

In high end raids you need more than one enchanter by far. Suicide tashing, crowd control, hasting, KEI, runes, etc. A bard is no substitute for a chanter on a raid, and adding more clerics will in no way compensate for lack of mana regeneration lost from KEI. A bard can't compensate for an ench who hastes an entire raid either. Bards help with mana regen but its no where near replacing KEI.

"Are you also pissed when you can't raid because you don't have warriors ?

Don't need them most of the time. And even if you do, one to three is usually plenty. If there is no warrior though, use a paly or sk and just add a few more clerics."

Don't need Warriors MOST of the time ? Are you serious? You NEED warriors for almost all high end encounters. There is NO way a paly or SK is going to be able to take the spot of a warrior for high end tanking in this game. Throw a pally or SK on the emp, hell even AoW and watch how fast they die. Adding a few more clerics will do absolutely nothing in this scenario they'll just blow their mana faster, and without mages summoning rods the raid will fail dismally.

"Are you also pissed that you can't raid because theres no mages for mod rods ?

Been there, done that. Sucks not to have CoH, but you can always fall back on necros for extra mana, or just add a few more clerics."

I don't know how you can seriously make this comment wihtout some thought. You've totally forgotten about the usefulness of mod rods. In high end encounters if you don't have a few mages constantly pumping out mod rods you're going to lose horribly as healers will run OOM. You're talking about LONG fights with a tonne of dmg being dished out by the mob requiring and healing required for 20+ minutes. Adding a few clerics won't do anything without mages. You'll find out that in 5-10 minutes your clerics will be OOM without any rod production. Necros in no way can replace mana fast enough to replenish cleric mana pools or even casters for that matter.

"Defensive helps make it easier on clerics, but without defensive, just step up the healing some. I know when we have fights and defensive runs out, the clerics just step up the rotation a bit and keep that warrior alive. It is much less messy than switching. Without defensive, any tank can take a hit as well as a warrior, and most can control aggro much much better. And aggro control is often more important than the slight hp edge warriors have. No good to have a CH rotation on that massive hp warrior if the mob is beating on someone else."

Sure step up the healing, on a substandard tank with much less HPs and AC. This just means you're going to need a tonne extra healing. That means, more clerics, more mod rods, etc.

My point to all this is that a NUMBER of classes are definately required for high end raids and class inter-dependency seems to go up the higher the difficulty of the raid. While you dismiss some classes being easily replaced, I disagree. Replace a mage, chanter, shaman, and your raid is hosed. You just can't discount them as easily as you have, otherwise you will end up corpse summoning your raids.

With clerics its a caviat; CH is a class skill. Lets say you need a 2 second CH order. CH casting time is 10 seconds. You'll need at minimum 6 clerics in a CH order, which will give them 2 seconds for spell recovery and modding. Why exactly is this a problem? For the most part if you are short on a given class, you'll need to recruit what you're lacking.

Talyena Trueheart
08-05-2002, 08:53 AM
My point is you don't need all of those classes for every raid. Enchanters can slow, shaman can haste, many classes can overlap in their skills and abilities. I saw the logs of a bard who fought the AoW when the main tanks were dead. Of course, he is one decked out bard, but if you know how ac works in this game then you know that any melee class can take a hit as well as a warrior once over the ac softcap. There are plenty of raids you can do if you don't have all the classes, but you just can't do those raids without clerics. And even if you need a shaman for this encounter, or an enchanter for that one, you can often get by with one, and three is plenty. Clerics are the only class that is required in large numbers for every raid. If you need six clerics just for some rotation, there is no way that raid can happen with less than six clerics, and even then you may be cutting it close.

Wicked
08-05-2002, 11:48 AM
"My point is you don't need all of those classes for every raid. Enchanters can slow, shaman can haste, many classes can overlap in their skills and abilities. I saw the logs of a bard who fought the AoW when the main tanks were dead. Of course, he is one decked out bard, but if you know how ac works in this game then you know that any melee class can take a hit as well as a warrior once over the ac softcap."

Well then I disagree with you. In high end content in Luclin, you need all those classes present, there is no substitute really even for stuff like AoW, Emp, HP, VT, etc.

A bard might be able to live for a bit against AoW, but they won't be able to do any sustained tanking against a mob like that. Bard's just don't have 7-8k HPs atm like warriors do. I'd love to see a non-warrior AoW raid and what it ends up with and then try to say that you really don't need them =P

"There are plenty of raids you can do if you don't have all the classes, but you just can't do those raids without clerics."

And again I disagree when you're talking about high level content. No mages? No shamans? No enchanters? No Warriors ? Any one missing basically means no Emp, VT, HP, etc. Clerics you do need obviously for CH rotations.

"And even if you need a shaman for this encounter, or an enchanter for that one, you can often get by with one, and three is plenty. Clerics are the only class that is required in large numbers for every raid. If you need six clerics just for some rotation, there is no way that raid can happen with less than six clerics, and even then you may be cutting it close."

You'll have a hard time getting by with just 1 shammie/ench in the high end content.

I'm curious, what raids are you speaking of when you say you really don't need those classes ?

Oldoaktree
08-05-2002, 11:55 AM
The MA doesn't need to do much dmg...just keep the agro.

It is the people standing behind the mob that kill it, not the one in front. And dmg rate is only one way of keeping hate.

One extreme? I have seen an enchanter be the MA for CT. Did he last long? Not really. He could have but there was a lot of lag. As long as he kept CT pointed towards him, the other people could kill the bad guy.

And if it were about the MA doing dmg, there would be many better choices than a warrior. It is about being able to take hits.

Again though I think you are missing the point that I believe was being made. THere are numerous things you can raid when you are thin on any class except clerics. There are no things you can raid when you are thin on clerics. Sure some of you might not bother raiding those mobs, but that does not change the simple fact that clerics are necessary for all things, other classes are necessary for some.

vetoafauna
08-05-2002, 12:42 PM
even if you do need every class present for said raids, you dont need nearly as many of each as clerics. some stuff just isnt doable without 10+ clerics. even for the very hardest of endgame encounters you dont need more than 2-4 of any class, except cleric.

on a side note, i watched a level 58 warrior with no aaxp tank the last 40% of avatar of war.

Talyena Trueheart
08-05-2002, 01:11 PM
I'm talking about any raid a guild can do. I'm sorry, but not every guild in the game is doing the top end SoL mobs. My guild does everything from the occasional RC raid to THO. We have yet to do AoW. Not that we can't, but the competition for him is pretty steep and we just haven't had a shot at him yet. Mobs we have taken recently on our first try are IV, THO, the new improved Sont, and Lord Vyemm. It has been really crowded in Ssra, but now that one guild has finally moved into VT, it is thinning out a bit and we are starting to work on keys now.

Maybe that stuff isn't much of a raid to you, but that is where my guild is at now. If I'm not uber enough for ya, here is what a high end warrior had to say about how needed warriors are.

Our class is now valued in effectiveness by the weapons we wield. We cannot mitigate damage better than any other melee class and as a matter of fact monks actually tank better than us - this should scare you... a lot.

My guilds top monk has over 4500 hps unbuffed. That is more than 95% of the warriors that play Everquest at level 60, if not more. As a matter of fact, our monks exclusively tank Rampage from Ssra to VT and everything and everywhere in between. We don't tell them to feign, we heal them - it's efficient, easy, and almost foolproof to keep them alive and on the page.


Our top monks could tank any mob in this game better than I could with less healing and far greater damage output. The only way I can even be effective versus them is to have hate generating weapons, which were made as a result of my whining about our pathetic lack of taunt pre-Luclin release and then once I have hate, I tank worse than them (thanks @#%$ skill levels and no block skill) and rely on my cleric rotation to keep my 7700 hps flowing - woopedy do.

So to sum things up for you - you suck, you can't tank, you need prosthetics to help you taunt, and people in the know laugh at you for experience groups. On top of that you're an incredible pain in the a** to even bring up to a level of raid worthiness, you needy little b**** - and when you're at that level....


Just give the monks dual SoDs and put a skirt on Sally...

Oh, and to those of you not worried about the damage output you do... start worrying. When it gets to the point that a Rogue is actually doing 500% more damage than you, you best CHECK yourself... I call you dead weight.


Furor Planedefiler

Those are just a few of his thoughts on the need for warriors in the high end game, and he probably knows the high end game and the abilities of warriors much better than you or I.

Shayariel
08-06-2002, 02:49 AM
Dear Wicked,

your opinion and disagreeing to my post in god's ears. I will not flame you for that at all.

But, do you remember the melee balance patches, and the status of Warriors, Paladins and Shadow Knights compared to each other?

Warriors' huge advantage in the tank spot was clearly broken. For xp groups as well as for non-disc-defensive raids. Knights can do those jobs now - and did Warriors vanish from Norrath? Did VI eradicate the class as a whole? Did Warriors get something in exchange to the other classes infringing into their area of specialisation? Did they cry out loud before, when and after those patches?

Answer 1: Yes, some Warriors disappeared, but that were mainly the ones that were former Knights or other broken classes that returned to their class from personal preference or because they couldn't stand not having a huge advantage. Only very few quitted EQ entirely because they couldn't stand the reduction of their chance to get a group down to 33%.

Answer 2: No

Answer 3: No, besides the twohanded damage bonus which all melees got, they got nothing. They - and Monks - were viewed as the 100% mark of balance with Rogues even being overpoered at that time.

Answer 4: Yes, they did - as Clerics do now - with the same arguments: "When ... happens, no one will group with Warriors anymore. Why don't they just delete that class?"

---

Warriors compete with Knights on an equal level now for the tank spot of groups and sometimes even lesser raids. If they are too late, well, bad luck, the group/raid could start killing with that other tank. Now groups and lesser raids don't need to wait for a certain tank anymore, can start earlier and that is fun and just.

---

Now lets break that down to the healer spot of a group (I will not start with the Crowd Control spot but that is analogue). Clerics still have that unfair advantage in all situations, they cannot solo very efficient and aren't very versatile - just as Warriors were and still are. In opposition to Warriors, Clerics are overpowered though, as the game evolves around them (with five more Clerics a Knight can tank all needed if no Warrior is available, but with five more Warriors tanking a Druid/Shaman still cannot heal for the raid if no Cleric is available).
If comparing Melee balance to Priest balance, we can expect Druids and maybe to a lesser degree Shamans get upgrades that lifts them to 80% the healing power of Clerics. Thus they will break the Cleric's monopoly in xp groups and lesser raids, but not in CH-Chain encounters, though one might be able to say, add 8 more Druids/Shamans and it is a go.
If comparing Melee balance to Priest balance even closer, we can expect Clerics to get nothing but one little toy in return, maybe their nukes will be a bit closer in resistability to Druid nukes.

So, in the end of Priest balancing, it wouldn't matter if in CT camps there would be a group with Cleric/Paladin, Cleric/Shadow Knight, Druid/Warrior or Shaman/Warrior - yes, even in those "hard" camps. But groups could go even if Clerics would much rather stay at their anvil practicing Smithing, or chill, or chat, or sleep.

Will there be less Clerics and more Druids? Most likely, as many players would return to their premier choosen class which they gave up in favor of the ever wanted Clerics.

The end of Balance - intra-melee, intra-caster, intra-priest and priest-caster-melee - must turn out that every class is desired equally for all but some very special situations in the game, that groups need to fill a healer, a tank and a crowd control spot (choosing from 3 classes each) and fill up the rest with what classes they want or whoever is just LFG.

And by no means VI could just kill 2/3 of the priest classes at all, only leaving one remaining as the classes will differ in their "added benefits" to groups or their high value in very special encounters. That didn't happen to tanks, and will not happen to priests or casters, just their 90% certain spot in a group will on a sudden be only 33% certain anymore...

Shay

Graal the Dorf
08-06-2002, 08:25 AM
Warriors' huge advantage in the tank spot was clearly broken. For xp groups as well as for non-disc-defensive raids. Knights can do those jobs now - and did Warriors vanish from Norrath? Did VI eradicate the class as a whole? Did Warriors get something in exchange to the other classes infringing into their area of specialisation? Did they cry out loud before, when and after those patches?

1.) Nope
2.) Nope
3.) Nope, and its a problem.
4.) Yep, and with reason.

pub14.ezboard.com/ftheste...=907.topic (http://pub14.ezboard.com/fthesteelwarriorthetavern.showMessage?topicID=907. topic)

Read through that thread and that will give you a good idea of the current state of warriors in EQ. Warriors are losing groups because the knight classes are preferred. Warriors are becoming marginalized. I don't know for sure how the scales balance between warrior and SK, but I can tell you with some authority that there is no parity between warriors and paladins. No warrior can bring what I can bring to a normal xp group. If you want to compare paladins and warriors on raids, the warrior contributes less than the paladin on the majority of raids, assuming he isn't tanking.

Remember, I'm a paladin saying this. VI, as usual, failed to address the real issues of balance when they tried to balance the melee classes. Their lack of vision has come back to bite them on the @#%$. They tried to balance classes instead of trying to balance the game.

Shayariel
08-06-2002, 09:32 PM
Graal, I just read the first post, and it seems that someone is sad that his 66% chance was reduced to 33% - in fact, Shadow Knights don't yet feel balanced against Warriors and Paladins.

Let me state unequivocally that yes, the discipline of defensive (and to another degree the discipline of evasive when selected correctly) are very powerful tools in the arsenal of a warrior. This solidifies their need on raids on "high melee" mobs. Let me also state that these disciplines are 2 expansions old, and weren't nearly as useful when they were fresh as they were in Velious (and to a MUCH lesser degree in most of Luclin).
But EQ is all inclusive SoL, and balance is factored against it all. He clearly states that DiscDef became more important. He mourns that it is an age old skill, one skill of Rangers is Snare - which is older than Kunark for them...

What we've learned is that AC is for @#%$, and therefore, unless you're talking about low level mobs, even similarly equipped toons of the same level will all receive the same benefit from AC, which seems to cap out around 1250ish. There is simply no melee class who cannot fairly easily get to the "soft cap" which sort of deflates the 'you have the highest AC' argument to meaningless.
There are Warriors that get, what was it, 1800 ac? and it is a soft cap, i.e. the ac points over 1200 don't add that much to your total ammount than those below - just like the int/wis cap for casters. Hybrid caps are 1100 by the way, those Warriors - on whose gear is far more ac by standard by the way - benefit more from plate drops. HPwise best Warriors approach 8000 hp, best Paladins just passed 6000. He cannot tell me that this makes no difference.

Paladins: While they SHOULD be the masters against undead, Slay Undead has become simply a way of taking a class that SHOULD suffer a penalty to melee and made them GODS (again, 5,000 point critical hits in melee with all of the utility allotted to Paladins while warriors still pound away at similar con mobs for 50, 60, 70 points, or 290ish max with primal seems totally out of line). Free horses, and an abundance of available equipment at relatively low cost, along with no need to hold back on NON-Int/Wis/Mana items which also have +Sta, and +100hp, because they're not limited seems wrong to me.

Shadowknights: Well, they haven't gotten the MASSIVE aa increases that others have gotten, yet, they can STILL acheive the same levels of AC/HP as warriors, and STILL out taunt warriors, making them PREFERRED tanks on certain mobs over warriors and the ONE job that we're supposed to have.
So, Paladins not the masters against Undead? What does he think a Paladin is? Then why should Warriors be the best tanks against boss mobs? SKs getting to the same HP/AC as Warriors seems to be plain wrong...

In aa skills, warriors will follow the same road EVERY TIME. 3 in Run 3, 3 in something else (usually regen) 3 in Natural Durability, Slap Area Taunt (Because we need to have a taunt that works!) then back for Combat Stability and Combat Agility. After that, nothing truly makes a warrior THAT much more powerful, or THAT much more capable of performing their jobs.
What wonder? Warriors were considered 100% mark in balance with full right of VI, they had clearly better chances to get groups, get on raids when tanks were needed. AA wise they mainly got toys, just as Clerics, which also are considered balanced or overpowered (but VI sees that they need some versatility).

This leads to basic exp grouping! VI revamps a dungeon that they may as well have called "The temple of Hybrid Heaven", as they completely disabled taunt, making us worthless in the zone. Fine, they fixed it after the nightmares, but it still doesn't alter the fact that their intentions became known, which is that they feel that warriors needing to tank exp mobs is undesirable.
What does her refer to? I have a lower taunt skill as a Warrior and still can either use Root/Stuns or 3Taunst to break mez, very successfully by the way. And I have grouped in nearly every place from Seb over CT to Ssra allready.

I've never seen a time in EQ where warriors were forced to solo so much because their group desirablity has gone from one extreme to the other. While with the right equipment, we CAN solo, we're nowhere near the capability of repeatedly soloing like a SU Paladin, or an arrow kiting ranger. We're STRICT melee, and should in my mind have some advantages to that, such as being BETTER, not a little, but a LOT better than non strict melees, not significantly WORSE based on mob choice.
Ok, here he shows that he is just pissed about the balance. Of course, assuming prebalance he had a 66% chance to be choosen for a group, now it's 33% and he has to look longer - guess what, just as I have to. All three classes have the same chances for xp groups, personal preference and knowledge exists about all classes. he cannot solo? Then he either wants targets a Necromancer/Shaman could maybe take, is badly geared or whatever. I have seen a Rogue soloing in FG for great xp, having a Fungi Tunic and some bandaids (which he didn't need) - this Rogue was in the highend game and outtanked me as 55 Paladin, required no heals and we were totally inefficient when I tanked those shrooms to enable him to BS, which he of course wasn't really when tanking.

Make some warrior only stuff
/agree

When I was level 54, Mightystrike was the coolest thing ever. Now that I'm 60 with aa skills, I see it as a waste of time and energy, and dangerous because it disables my disciplines for so long, even though it's not overpowered. Why not an AA skill which acheives a similar effect for a longer period of time? I mean, come on, manaburn is ok, but having an "always crit/Crip" for 30 seconds even while using discs is? I'm a friggin WARLORD, and I should be able to get fire in my eyes and go on a frenzied rampage laying devastation from time to time without sacrificing my ability to go defensive for the next hour. Make a mightystrike type aa class skill. It certainly wouldn't take anything away from anyone else, but would sure make MY experience more fun.
Warriors experienced this since Kunark was the only expansion. Again, Warriors got aa toys because aa was a way to balance classes? Why doesn't he in the same breath admit that the Warrior only gear that came with Kunark and after was clearly better HP/AC wise than Pal/Sk only gear? They also are tanks and depend on those two stats.
By the way, he is wrong with Warlords laying devastation on anything. Warlords are people that stand on a nearby hill in safety and give tactical commands to their armies :p Well, then Crusaders would group with others than other Crusaders as well, hehe...


As I said, I only read the initial post, there surely are several real good posts in the thread. And I surely agree that Warriors need something, but in my eyes it is mainly Warrior only gear that is equal to existing multiclass gear, not better. Everyone is proud when something for him only drops.

Edit: I read a post from VI somewhere that stated that they didn't really wanted to enhance class only stuff since they didn't want to see it rot if that particular class wasn't on the raid or had that thing allready. Sounded so or similar and was some time ago.

But well, this thread is about Priests, lets get back to them please...

Shay

Edit2: P.S.: In my eyes, if Warriors have to fear, they get, lets say - a bit drastically I know - unfair competition for the tank spot from monks only. This class also gets a decently high ammount of HP/AC, can gain agro pretty fast or loose it the fastest if they want. In the same Breath they can solo entire camps like Seb/Disco, Velks maybe all but LD/LS/castle - often times as or more efficient as/than Necromancers, Shamans or a Druid/Paladin combo of a "a-bit-to-go-to-highend" state of the game.
Giving Warriors a 100% sure taunt would - now speaking the language of the status-quo-defenders and godclass-desirerers - make other tanks obsulete entirely, then again you could max your CH efficiency and ensure that no other group members get agro. Guess what, if another melee besides the MT gets agro from a mob, a more vital on bossmob raids, he doesn't know his job, so either hand him a Rusty Longsword or two, or kick him from the group/raid.

corlathist
08-08-2002, 04:59 PM
Couple Things are Deadlocked in EQ for me.
1) Power of CH
2) Power of Slow
3) Interchanability of Knights/Tanks to a purpose.

Ive grouped a lot with Monk and Warrior and I prefer the monk
withOUT the warrior. Warrior wants agro too much and its easier to heal the monk. Fungi/Regen/Evade.

Monk/Druid/Shaman trio having taken a couple different 32k mobs.

I can sub a cleric for druid.
MAYBE sub the cleric for the Shaman.
Could easily sub another shaman for the druid.

Wouldnt have a chance of subbing shaman for druid.

Thats the kind of interchangability missing in priest classes.

Tanks have it. Some areas warriors better. Some monks better. Some Paladins. Some SK.

I dont see any one of those 4 tank classes as better
or worse.

I definately see a difference and 3rd class status for Druids
among the priest classes.

Need more clerics at a raid than any class, have CH monopoly.

Shamans are gods if you know whatcha doing. Other than some wierd bard charm tricks there is no class that can outsolo a shaman n terms of power of the foe,


Ah well, truth is out there.
Melees are relatively interchangable.
Priests are not even close.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
08-09-2002, 05:10 AM
Why the hell are we arguing about warrior balance on the Druid's Grove?

Take this to the Steel Warrior

Talyena Trueheart
08-09-2002, 07:06 AM
Why the hell are we arguing about warrior balance on the Druid's Grove?

Actually, it was an argument about cleric (and healing) balance, hehe. Just trying to point out that the only class needed for every single raid (in all levels of the raiding game), is the cleric. And, even when you need those other classes, a few will work, while you need more and more clerics as the encounters get longer and tougher. It is amazing how these conversations can take twists and turns though, isn't it?

Graal the Dorf
08-09-2002, 10:46 AM
Aiddon (I think it was you), to answer your earlier question of why shamans can act as primary healers in a group better than druids can, the answer lies in the role that shamans and druids can play in a group.

Shamans have a pretty specific role in groups. They are healers, buffers, and debuffers. The tools they have make them lean much more toward this role than druids do, not necessarily because they have better tools to fill this role, but because they have lesser tools to fill other roles.

Druids can nuke, and nuke well. That is essentially it. I'm not saying shamans can't do respectable damage, because they can when they concentrate on it. The difference is that a shaman is much more geared towards being a healer than a damage dealer, and they can't put out the damage numbers druids can, they can't do damage as fast, nor does the damage from multiple shamans stack very well. Druids can do fast damage almost as well as wizards can, and that damage stacks well. 3 druids can fuction well together in a group. 3 shamans really can't, even 2 shamans don't stack well in a group.

Shaman damage comes mainly from dots which don't stack and take time to work, and indirect damage from haste, which doesn't stack from multiple shamans. Multiple pets DO stack, but the damage is minor. Nukes from shamans stack as well, but the nukes they have are pathetic. They are tied with enchanters for the worst nukes as far as dmg/mana is concerned. Enchanters are the only class that nuke slower, and like enchanters, they only have one type of nuke, which is cold. They do have a lower level poison based nuke but it has a 2/1 dmg to mana ratio and is very slow damage.

If you are on a raid and need more healers, you can grab a cleric, shaman, or druid. The druid will heal outside of the group about as well as the shaman when you factor in faster mana regen from shamans and faster healing from druids. If you are on a raid and need more nukers, neither shamans nor clerics fill that role well, but druids do fill that role very well. Only wizards are better in fact.

The same applies to group dynamics. If you already have a cleric, each additional cleric you add gives a much reduced benefit. The same is true for shamans. Druids, on the other hand, stack well within a group.

Shayariel
08-09-2002, 10:35 PM
Aidon,

this warrior balance example come from Steelwarriors and was posted because I wanted to defend my statement which someone tried to lessen about melee classes being very well balanced after the melee patches, that groups can choose amongst 3 tanks giving each one 33% chance +/- personal preference +/- time bonus for being LFG earlier, and non disc defensive raids can start without Warriors as maintanks now.

I want to see similiar balance to priests, namely that groups can choose out of 3 classes for the healer spot which all lie only 20% away from each other - just like tanks, Knights tank 80% as good as Warriors now - and non CH-chain raids will be able to start and work even if no Cleric is there.

A raid can start without a single Paladin, Shadow Knight Or Warrior (1 tank is a must though), without a Druid, without a Shaman, without a Wizard, Magician and Necromancer, without a Monk, Rogue, Ranger (a few dmg dealers must be there, mostly it doesn't matter what kind though), without Beast Lords and Bards.
A group can choose a Druid as healer for the easy camps in Velks, which some decently geared melees can solo and still hold it cleared, a Shaman for camps of up to medium difficulty and a Cleric without backup healer for all camps.

But on raids no Enchanter, no Cleric means waiting for hours, recruiting from outside the guild, calling the raid, a screwed event because some very few players like "extended breakfast" - fully knowing the relevance of their class??
For groups, no Enchanter (or Bard) and no Cleric means tons of downtime, high risc of dieing from inefficieant healing, mispulling (trains), repops in LOM times, need for evac and refighting to the spot.

Only if I can choose from 3 priests for healers, for every xp camp up to at least Sewers in CT (a 80% tank, i.e. Knight can tank it, so should a 80% healer, i.e. Dru/Shm), only if I can start my raid in PoH, PoF, KD Arena, HoT, (add some higher targets) with only Druids and Shamans as healers because no Clerics came, priests are balanced. Yes, even the "some higher targets" can be tanked from Knights, but will be tanked from Warriors if one is available...

Just my view on things, be well Druids :)

Shay

corlathist
08-11-2002, 09:10 PM
Graal.

To call Shaman nukes pathetic means you really dont ever play with a nuking shaman.

Unless the Mob is resistant to cold

I can outnuke in any xp group a druid out there with my 59 shaman.

Shaman: Mana 250 Damage 675
Druid: Mana 320 Damage 1150

Keeping my math simple Could a Shaman Keep up a pace of 500 Mana Spent (1350), for every 320 (1150) a Druid can?

Another way to look at it. Can a Shaman Regen Mana at a pace of 25 for every 16 a Druid can.

Yes.

I truly wonder if even a Wizard can outnuke a shaman.
But I dont feel like looking up thier mana costs, mana regen, and sustainability.

ONLY if you factor in Mod Rods can a Druid outnuke a Shaman. Theres times when you can, but theres times when Rods are for clerics only, or clerics/wizards. Unless you can guarantee Rods for the Druids. The Shaman can outnuke

I wont even go into the sustained power of a JBB.


Go Back to 2nd page of this thread and look how routinely Shaman does damage

Shamans stack great Graal. Problem is most shamans dont realize thier own potential.

Firemynd
08-12-2002, 06:29 AM
Problem is most shamans dont realize thier own potential.

Some would say the same about the druid class. However, assuming for comparison sake that both equally know how to play their classes to fullest potential, shamans definitely possess a few significant advantages over druids:

-- Shaman have two defined niches in the high end game: slower/debuffer and buffer. Even when not essential for the raid's boss mob(s), I've seen multiple shamans brought onto raids for the sole purpose of eliminating the possibility for any downtime due to losing the main slower to LD; similar to having second-assist tanks.

-- Shaman make far better backup healers than druids because of Torpor's efficiency; it is clearly the best (non-cleric) heal in the game to use for healing raid/group casters and clerics, and in a pinch, can sustain melees as well.

-- Shaman suffer far less medding downtime than druids. Rods are not always made available to non-clerics, yet a shaman can recover his/her entire mana bar in extremely short time, while a druid will take at least twice as long, even with FT and KEI (let's not forget that FT and KEI are benefitting the shaman as well - making canni that much more efficient).

-- Saman have greater defensive capability for sustaining damage in circumstances where they get aggro. In addition to wearing chain classed armor compared to druid leather, can torpor themselves just before slowing a bigger mob, such that over 1k damage is being absorbed while tanks reestablish aggro. Druids have no preemptive heal-over-time spells to mitigate the damage taken from aggro (can't really count Nature's Recovery, which which only offsets what... about 30 hit points of damage per 6 seconds? that's like having a 9th level druid chain casting Light Healing...)

Like I've said before, if I didn't have such affection for the druid class (more because of D&D than EQ), I'd be playing a shaman full time as my main.

~Firemynd

Graal the Dorf
08-12-2002, 11:35 AM
I looked at shaman and druid nuking from a mana regen and cast time standpoint and the results were interesting.

25 mana a tick from med
1 mana a tick standing regen
2 mana a tick sitting mana regen
6 mana a tick from cabbage (counted for druid only)
3 mana a tick from mask of the stalker (counted for druid only)
36 mana tick when medding with cabbage and mask.

Druid
1. Cast moonfire in 6 seconds for 1150 damage for 320 mana. 6 seconds have passed. 320 mana down.
2. Med for 8 ticks. 54 seconds have passed. 288 mana regained medding. 32 mana down.
3. Cast moonfire in 6 seconds for 1150 damage for 320 mana. 60 seconds have passed. Gained 10 mana while casting. 342 mana down.
4. Med for 9 ticks. 114 seconds have passed. 324 mana regained medding. 18 mana down.
5. Cast moonfire in 6 seconds for 1150 damage for 320 mana. 120 seconds have passed. Regained 10 mana while casting. 328 mana down.
6. Med for 9 ticks. 170 seconds have passed. Regained 324 mana medding. 4 mana down.


Shaman
1. Cast ice strike in 7 seconds for 675 damage at a cost of 250 mana. 7 seconds have passed.
2. Cast canni4 5 times in 25 seconds for 740 health converted to 410 mana. 32 seconds have passed
3. Cast torpor in 8.5 seconds. 40.5 seconds have passed.
4. Cast ice strike in 9.5 seconds for 675 damage at a cost of 250 mana. 50 seconds have passed.
5. Cast canni4 5 times in 25 seconds for 740 health converted to 410 mana. 75 seconds have passed.

snapshot - 280 health down 120 mana up


6. Cast ice strike in 9.5 seconds for 675 damage at a cost of 250 mana. 84.5 seconds have passed.
7. Cast canni4 5 times in 25 seconds for 740 health converted to 410 mana. 109.5 seconds have passed.
8. Cast torpor in 8.5 seconds. 118 seconds have passed.
9. Cast ice strike in 9.5 seconds for 675 damage at a cost of 250 mana. 127.5 seconds have passed.
10. Cast canni4 4 times in 20 seconds for 592 health converted to 328 mana. 147.5 seconds have passed.
11. Cast ice strike in 9.5 seconds for 675 damage at a cost of 250 mana. 157 seconds have passed.

snapshot 412 health down 92 mana down
Assuming regrowth and 26 ticks that is 22 health down.
Assuming standing mana regen of 1/tick total mana is 66 mana down.

A shaman can cast an ice strike about every 31.4 seconds if they do nothing but cann, torpor, and ice strike. This gives 21.5 DPS. They have to click the spell gems as soon as they refresh every single time, can't be lagged, etc.

A druid can cast moonfire every 56.6 seconds for 20.32 DPS.

These numbers are a small amount off since the totals didn't even out at the end, but they are close. The shaman numbers might be just a touch lower due to them ending with a larger mana deficit, but like I said, the numbers above should be very close.

Give a druid a modrod once every 5 minutes and it blows the numbers all to hell. This also doesn't take into account focus items (which don't affect canni or torpor in any way, other than mana presIII for torpor) and doesn't take into account AA (which doesn't affect torpor or cann4, Cann5 benefits should be obvious). KEI gives a much larger benefit to druids than shamans, same with bard song. The increased mana regen will be the same for each class, but druids can use the mana more efficiently. This also shows why cann5 is such a big deal. The problem for shamans before they get cann5 is they just can't cast canni4 fast enough.

I didn't expect those numbers to turn out the way they did. I might have to do the same thing again with maxxed AAs, KEI, and full focus items for both classes and see how that turns out.

Graal the Dorf
08-12-2002, 01:23 PM
25 mana a tick from med
1 mana a tick standing mana regen
2 mana a tick sitting mana regen
6 mana a tick from cabbage
3 mana a tick from mask of the stalker
14 mana a tick from KEI
50 mana/tick for a medding druid.

Assuming access to all focus items.
spell haste +15% for torpor (enhancement haste doesn't affect torpor)
Affliction haste +33% haste for ice strike and moonfire
Improved damage +20% damage (this is a max of a range correct? Going to assume it averages 10.5%)
Affliction efficiency -25% mana cost for ice strike and moonfire
mana preservation -10% mana cost for torpor.

Going to assume we are starting on the server heartbeat, and going to count each cast of moonfire as 6 seconds (1 tick) We aren't starting at full mana, but aren't counting mana regen while casting the first spell.

1. Cast moonfire in 4 seconds for 1271 damage for 240 mana. 4 seconds have passed. 240 mana down. 2 more seconds till server heartbeat.
2. Med for 4 ticks. 26 seconds have passed. 200 mana regained medding. 40 mana down.
3. Cast moonfire in 4 seconds for 1271 damage for 240 mana. 30 seconds have passed. Gained 24 mana while casting. 256 mana down. 2 more seconds till server heartbeat.
4. Med for 5 ticks. 62 seconds have passed. 250 mana regained medding. 6 mana down.
5. Cast moonfire in 6 seconds for 1271 damage for 240 mana. 66 seconds have passed. Regained 24 mana while casting. 222 mana down. 2 seconds till server heartbeat.
6. Med for 4 ticks. 92 seconds have passed. Regained 200 mana medding. 22 mana down.

41.45 DPS


1. Cast ice strike in 4.7 seconds for 746 damage at a cost of 188 mana. 4.7 seconds have passed.
2. Cast canni4 2 times in 10 seconds for 296 health coverted to 164 mana. 14.7 seconds have pass.
3. Cast ice strike in 7.2 seconds for 746 damage at a cost of 188 mana. 21.9 seconds have passed.
4. Cast canni4 2 times in 10 seconds for 296 health coverted to 164 mana. 31.9 seconds have pass.
5. Cast ice strike in 7.2 seconds for 746 damage at a cost of 188 mana. 39.1 seconds have passed.
6. Cast canni4 2 times in 10 seconds for 296 health coverted to 164 mana. 49.1 seconds have passed.
7. Cast ice strike in 7.2 seconds for 746 damage at a cost of 188 mana. 56.3 seconds have passed.
8. Cast ice strike in 7.2 seconds for 746 damage at a cost of 188 mana. 63.5 seconds have passed.
8. Cast torpor in 7.9 seconds for 1200 heal over time at a cost of 180 mana. 71.4 seconds have passed.
9. Cast canni4 4 times in 20 seconds for 592 health coverted to 328 mana. 91.4 seconds have passed. 1120 mana used. 1480 health burned to regen 820 mana. KEI + standing mana regen adds 225 mana for a total mana regen of 1045, deficit of 75 mana. 280 unhealed damage from canni, but 15 ticks of regrowth, bearform, and standing regen for 270 health healed. 10 unhealed damage.

40.81 DPS

Again, the shaman has the higher mana deficit at the end and that would make the DPS number drop by a small amount, but it is close enough for government work.

Tiane
08-12-2002, 02:02 PM
I dont know about others, but I have to be very careful if I'm planning on nuking like that, and that generally means not sitting. Dont know if your figure is sitting med or standing med... Sometimes I can sit, but often it's not worth the risk, and is a good way to make a raid leader yell at you 8P

Tia

Talyena Trueheart
08-12-2002, 02:35 PM
Found this on Graffe's in their wizard Q&A section.

Q: What is the formula to calculate my mana regen from meditation?
A: At level 60 it has been calculated to add 18mana tick (skill 252). When medding this would give a total of 20 as standing mana regen is 1 per tick, sitting mana regen is 2 per tick.

Saw somewhere else where someone tested it and came up with 18.5 mana per tick. I haven't done any testing myself, but those wizards love their numbers and I would be suprised if they were wrong.

corlathist
08-12-2002, 04:16 PM
Looking at your numbers Graal,

Even you got to admit then your original point of Shaman Nukes as Pathetic is wrong.

You've posted them as roughly equal.
Having 2 Boxed Shaman and Druid quite a bit in real world. I will tell you I usually do nuke twice as much with shaman.

Incidently, on Shaman board Ive read Higher DPS calculations then the ones you used for Ice striking Shamans. Keep in mind JBB clicks for 263 Damage for 8 Seconds. 32.875 DPS
there was a 60 Shaman who wanted to see if JBB DPS could be beat without JBB as part of the race debate. He was able to put out more DPS then the JBB.

Also throw in Gobby Earring in to calcs. By repoping gems I can shave 2.5 Seconds when SWITCHING spells between Can and Ice Strike. Cant use that trick when casting Same Spell only

So one common misconception is Shamans better Dotters and Druids better Nukers.

Shamans can nuke at least as well, if not better.

Graal the Dorf
08-15-2002, 10:00 AM
Yep. After looking at the numbers, it doesn't wash does it? At least not for sustained DPS. Mainly because of the mana regen rate of shamans compared to druids. Yes, shamans could get better DPS than what is listed, but not sustainable DPS, which is what I was looking at. If you wanted to talk about burst DPS, druids would be the best by far.

I did some testing of mana regen rates and at 225 med I got 20 a tick medding. That is 17 med+2 sitting regen+1 FT. So my listed mana regen numbers were off, and druids would actually have slightly lower DPS using moonfire than what I posted, especially for the series without KEI. Of course, I didn't take into account spec. ;)

My thought all along has been to fix NR. HoT spells are the bread and butter of the other priests, and I don't see why it shouldn't be the same with druids. Direct healing should be less powerful and efficient than HoT spells, but I think NR is just a bit too castrated atm, especially with the recast delay.

Ensrettet
08-15-2002, 09:58 PM
I'm curious why you think Clerics are better at AE than Druids.
We have some spell overlap on the Tremor line and where there are class specific AE, the Druid spells tend to have faster recast, more damage, better ratio. The only spell I can think of that Clerics get that Druids don't is Stun Command.

Miss Foxfyre
08-15-2002, 11:03 PM
Clerics can group-heal or clicky-pants in an AE group, and you get an end-of-the-line tremor-like spell, Unspoken Word, which also stuns targets. ;) Upheaval does more damage by the number (725 at level 59) but the mana cost is 625 per. And you have both, while we have one.

Ensrettet
08-16-2002, 01:53 AM
Group Heals are useful. Clicky pants are not, very very long cast time means not suitable for in battle healing (and only 100pt healed). Arguably not even worth using for downtime healing as CE + med time is more efficient.

Unspoken word has a 2min recast reducing its usefulness. Damage to mana ratio isnt much better than Upheaval. Fist of Karana is probably the best (although outdoor only).

Talyena Trueheart
08-16-2002, 03:44 AM
Fist isn't a point blank ae spell. It is a targeted spell that only hits four targets at a time, one of which will be the caster if in range. The same applies to our rain spells. Point blank spells don't have the best ratio, but the more mobs you add, the better they get until they have amazingly high ratios (and therefore, amazing experience). Basically, clerics have the exact same point blank ae spell line that druids do plus one. That, plus the fact you can res, puts you ahead of druids as a choice for ae groups.

Aldarion Shard
08-16-2002, 11:19 AM
have you ever DONE ae groups?

clerics dont hold a monopoly because of heal or AEs. they do because every time you AE group someone will die, and will need rezd.

Oldoaktree
08-17-2002, 01:41 AM
don't downplay group heals...it is another piece of the puzzle.

I have heard of druids getting AoE groups....but I have never, ever seen it on my server.

In fact there is an AoE channel on our server and "non aoe classes" routinely get booted out of it. AoE classes defined as - Wiz, Mage, Cleric, Chanter and Pally/Bard for pull (sometimes warrior but usually one of the other two).

/shrug.