I'm being polite in using the term "brainstorming." A brawl at a drunken frat party might be a more appropriate description of the "CH and Manaburn" thread at times, but regardless, there was some good discussion and consensus ideas that showed up among the persiflage.

Here's what I saw several clerics and druids agreeing to or considering as possible healing fixes across the board (not just for druids).

1. Removal of the 10% penalty for non-cleric classes above level 50.

2. Addition of a direct heal for clerics and druids (and possibly shaman). In rough form, it would have the following characteristics:

--2000 to 2500 hp heal
--cast time and mana in the same range as NT
--clerics would get a few levels earlier (57/58)

3. Move NT to level 57/58 for druids to make room for the new direct heal at 60.

4. A group heal for druids at level 57/58. Possibly equivalent to Healing Wave of Prexus (paladins).

5. Possible new HoT for druids, healing in the 1100-1300 range (or just CE with a penalty). Perhaps as a replacement for NR for druids.

6. Give Clerics something to enhance versatility, damage upgrade, and/or solo power.



Here are some quotes from the thread:

Want to make druids a viable PRIMARY group healer (cleric will still be better, but not having a cleric will not stop you from having a group)? Give them a heal over time similar to Celestial Elixer. I'd say maybe 1200 hitpoints, instead of 1500. Keep it's mana efficiency close but slightly under CE. Mana efficiency is the key to the usefulness of HoTs.
...
Now, how to make a druid more raid friendly? I think the aforementioned group heal like Prexus would do nicely. Many guilds raid a lot of AErs these days. group heals are needed for these, but clerics are often busy healing main tanks. Druids being able to heal AE damage efficiently would add a lot to their raid usefulness.

-Geneze Angelfyre, High Priestess, Veteran's Legion


I believe that around page 7 or 8 we had some VERY good discussion about how to fix Priest classes as a whole (at least in regards to healing). I stand by that. Give Druids and Clerics a mana efficient direct heal that is an upgrade to Divine Light/Natures Touch at level's 57 (CLR) and 60 (DRU). Remove the healing penalty post 50 for all healing spells. Lower Nature's Touch a few spell levels. Give Shaman a Natures Touch style direct heal at 60. Finally, give Clerics something else that gives us a bit of versatility, damage upgrade, and/or solo power.

-Venerable Quistil Angelwatch
High Priest in the service to the Great Mother Tunare, Affliction



Let me sum up the fight in question here:

AL vs MT with 7267 HP
31 mins duration
352 CHs
843k dmg

Average 2400 hp per CH.

So, our clerics were just stupid and could have healed slower? Not really, no - because of those 352 CHs 6 were above 6k and 1 was above 7k. So, if we had healed slower the tank would have been dead long before 31 mins had gone by.

AoW. We CH every 2.5 sec - his average dmg is in the order of < 1000 dps - so average CH lands for 2500 hp. But, if we heal slower the MT is very dead very fast due to spikes in damage. AoW spikes around 3500 dps - so 2.5 sec = dead tank in worse case.

Raid damage is just generally unpredictable - and for CH to get a high average hp/mana you need predictability.

-Mikar of the Nexus
High Priest of Brell
The Companions
The Tribunal


In order to get back to the main issues instead of looking at what CH heals for in particular encounters, and whether the mana the mana for CH on someone with 200 hp of damage is "wasted" or not, I'll add some numbers at the end to take into account the variability in high-end raids that the clerics posting here are arguing for:

Level - Relative Power (Druid/Cleric)
1 - 82%
9 - 72%
19 - 77%
29 - 83%
39 - 14% (Cleric gets CH, assume heals 2000 pts)
49 - 7% (assume CH heals 3800 pts)
51 - 13% (Druid gets SH)
55 - 11% (Druid gets Chloro, but using SH still)
55 - 8% (assume Druid uses Chloro over SH)
60 - 15% (Druid gets NT, assume CH heals 6000)
60 - 18% (assume CH heals 5000)
60 - 22% (assume CH heals 4000)
60 - 29% (assume CH heals 3000)
60 - 35% (assume CH heals 2500)

It doesn't change the analysis at all. Even if CH only healed for 2500 hp each and every time it was used, for all raids and all groups, the druid has still lost over half of its healing power relative to the cleric. Same goes for the shaman.

Of course, let's not lose sight of the fact that the reason CH is necessary for high level raids is not because it heals, say, 2500 hp on average. It's because it can heal up to the full hp of the MT, with 6000 and 7000 hp heals when needed due to spikes in mob damage, which no one disputes occur. A fixed 2500 hp heal is no threat to CH in the slightest.

Here are the three things I would advocate for healing changes:

1. Remove the 10% penalty for non-cleric classes for 50+. CH renders it superfluous. Clerics would still retain the 5% bonus.

2. Give druids (and shaman, too, if they want it) a group heal comparable to the other group heals, adjusted for whatever level it's placed at. It fits with the "pack" theme, and enables druids and shaman to truly fill a secondary healer function, if desired.

3. Give druids, shaman AND clerics a new direct heal in the 2500 hp range. Following the earlier formula of shared healing spells, it would have the same mana cost and casting time for all three classes, but clerics would get the 5% bonus (another 125 hp) AND get the spell a couple of levels earlier than druids and shaman. Say 58, while the latter get it at 60. Perhaps move NT to 58 for druids simultaneously.

I think it's time for the healing class communities to put aside any differences, and push together for something like the above (and I'm open to other suggestions). ALL OF US would get a decent heal in the 2500 hp range that should cast faster than CH and that clerics would still retain an edge with. It would also work with AA skills, thus allowing the specialist to have some nice numbers with this heal.

-Scirocco
Hierophant, The Kindred


Actually you're nearly dead on with your analysis in that all 3 classes would benefit greatly. Currently our best direct heal is Divine Light which is a "roughly" 900 point heal and we receive this at 53. As you yourself can testify, there are many instances when this level of healing is not adequete for the job at hand. Most Clerics view this as our "OH CRAP" heal when Complete Heal takes too long to cast and Cel Elixer takes to long to work. However, it's horribly inefficient in terms of heal to mana ratio. Clerics have been wanting a decent, direct heal, upgrade since before Luclin.

Personally, if I was to "fix" healing I would follow in many of your own ideas.

1. Give all Druids and Clerics a 2kish heal. Druids at 60 and Clerics a bit lower, say 57. Keep the Cleric one a bit more mana efficient and maybe add a small recast to the Druid one. Nothing overly penalyzing, just keep it so that Druids CAN heal effectively but Clerics stay superior at it (let's totally ignore CH for this).

2. Move the 900 point Druid heal down to about 57 but leave it, otherwise, unchanged.

3. Remove the 10% healing penalty for ALL heals post level 50 (Druid, Shaman, Paladin, and even Ranger). Keep the Cleric bonus in place.

4. Add a larger direct heal to the Shaman lineup. In all honesty, they really don't need it as much as things stand now but it would make sense if we're rewriting the heals. As things stand, I doubt you'll find any Level 60 Shaman who thinks that their class is weak or broken. They admit that they're powerful and the only thing they want is the rarity of Malo and Torpor to be evaluated. But it would make sense to give them a better heal at 60 since they are often, and in my opionin mistakenly, viewed as a "healer" class.

5. Personally I'd be for a Druid Group Heal. Nothing large and obscene, but something that is functional. Tune the HP healed and mana consumed with an AOE battle in mind. I'd also really like to see another Cleric Group Heal that has a bit more healing punch than Word of Restoration but without all the frills (no cure component or STA Regen, just pure heal). Last is just a luxury to me and not really vital to "balance" anything.

6. Give Clerics SOMETHING to help reduce the monotony of our existance. I'm not asking for double attack, FD, Sunstrike, Ports or things like that. I really don't know what I'm asking for but I'd really like something that let's us do things outside of sit, stand, heal, sit. I really liked the idea of the Battle Cleric idea (standing/fighting meditate and moved to the bard damage table) but I really don't know how feasible this is. Looks good in theory (we would be able to kill greens and do damage against blues but we wouldn't do jack against raid level mobs).

Anyway, those are my thoughts too. As I said, I agree that changes are necessary. I just don't think those changes should be focused on getting Druids Complete Heal.

-Venerable Quistil Angelwatch
High Priest in the service to the Great Mother Tunare
Proud member of Affliction


I suggested the same heal be given to all 3 classes, pretty much like all the heals up through Superior Heal. Call it Superlative Heal, for now. And in keeping with that tradition, I still suggest that it be the same for all classes. With the 5% bonus, the cleric Superlative Heal will be a bit more mana efficient on that basis alone (even more so if the 10% penalty for non-clerics is retained). Add in the various healing specialities, and the efficiency will be even greater, except for druids and shaman who are "healing specialists." And in the latter case, clerics still have that 5% efficiency edge.

So, what would it look like?

Amt Healed: 2000 to 2500?
Mana: 400 to 450? (CH and NT are 400)
Casting Time: 5.5 to 6.0 seconds? (CH is 10s, NT is 5.5s)
Recast: Instant (CH and NT are instant)

...

Ok, let's look at what other classes have for group heals to see where a druid group heal would fit in.

Word of Healing (Cleric 49)
500 hp/group/area
600 mana
4s cast, instant recast

Word of Vigor (Cleric 52)
620 hp/group (and restore vigor)
750 mana
4.25s cast, instant recast

Word of Restoration (Cleric 57)
750 hp/group (and abolish poison/disease)
900 mana
instant cast time, instant recast

Word of Redemption (Cleric 60)
CH /group
1100 mana
12s cast, instant recast

Healing Wave of Prexus (Paladin 58)
660 hp/group
650 mana
2s cast, 30s recast

For simplicity's sake, let's just say we give druids either Word of Vigor or Healing Wave of Prexus at level 58. Myself, I'd go with Prexus.

-Scirocco
Hierophant, The Kindred

I'd immagine they'll give us whatever they decide soon and as they have said our petitions etc don't matter. I've pretty much decided not to comment or complain about druid abilities any more. I'll see what they do when they finish priest balancing and even if it's nothing will probably keep playing. I've complainted about all the classic druid shortcomings for almost 2 years now to no avail and don't really care anymore.

Imo, none of those do anything to balance us in relation to priest classes. If we keep giving every other priest class everything we get, we go nowhere. As far as i'm concerned, Druids should get a healing upgrade. Clerics should get a few upgrades in the form of ability to solo and travel. Shamans dont need no stinkin upgrades, other than a nuke, if that :P

All these conversations are well and good, but lately I've lost so much faith in Verant that I highly doubt any of it will ever happen. All these "discussions", rants, yelling etc on message board is as about as good as screaming at a brick wall.

The only thing it seems to serve is making fellow players angry with each other rather then working with each other. Which is really what needs to happen in the game anyway. When a cleric and a druid for example work together in a group they rock. No cleric can deny that a druid kicks butt healing an enchanter while the cleric does a CH on the MA. That's team work. How many times has this happened in groups? I'd say 100% of the time I'm grouped I'll save some group members butt while the cleric is healing another.

Why I keep hearing this petty argument that druids can replace clerics in group is beyond me. It's simply not true. Unless you're grouping for mobs that are extremely easy then IMO what's the point? You can't say some druid replaced a cleric in Fungus Grove. Most people solo there anyway. Use a typical level 60 zone as your base. Like Cazic for example. Every class in EQ has troubles getting groups. No class is unique in this. A great solution I see is to make the group size larger. That would solve so many "group wars" amoung classes and I think make the game more enjoyable for all.

" 2. Addition of a direct heal for clerics and druids (and possibly shaman). In rough form, it would have the following characteristics:"

That's where your post ended... with a colon. Something wrong with my browser?

Anyway, I don't think giving all priests classes the same additional heal is going to do squat for druids, who would still be chosen last after shaman and cleric.

~Firemynd

Lag caused two versions of this post to show up, one complete, one cut off. Since replies showed up on the cut off one first, I froze the other and have added the full text above.

If we keep giving every other priest class everything we get, we go nowhere.

First, the clerics already have "everything." CH defines 100% healing power. It doesn't matter if clerics get a 2500 point heal, because they still have a better heal in CH. Druids, on the other hand, move dramatically UP the power scale with a 2500 point heal. Don't tell me you've forgotten about CH already??

Second, why shouldn't shaman get the same direct heal? The shaman place in a raid is already a given with their buffs and debuffs. In fact, giving shaman a direct heal is somewhat superfluous for raid purposes, because they won't have time to do much healing.

Bottom line is that we DO go somewhere...we jump up the healing power chart with these changes.

Screw being "chosen". I haven't been in a pick-up group in months. I want to be improved at what I am called upon to do and deal with everytime I play. That is what these suggestions would accomplish.

Fairweather Pure

giving druids a better direct heal is pointless, it doesn't solve the current druid problem. I don't think making druids better clerics is a good idea.

We need improvement in different areas for example:

[non-healing suggestions deleted]

3) Move Nature's Touch to 57 and add a new direct heal (1750 heal for 400 mana) at level 60.

[non-healing suggestions deleted]

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the Druid Petition, or druid needs in other areas. Please limit comments specifically to the specific issues at hand--healing changes. Otherwise, what we have winnowed out so far will get lost...again.

I will ruthlessly stomp on, squish, delete, and eradicate anything not closely related to healing changes. Fair warning! :)

[Damn...you're too fast, Trevize! Anyway, to be fair, deleting comments on the non-healing changes that leaked through before being squished. Sorry.]



BAH!!! It was funny too :-/

Fine..

/em takes his jokes elsewhere

"Bottom line is that we DO go somewhere...we jump up the healing power chart with these changes."

But so do they. That ability only helps balance priest classes in relation to everyting else, when priest classes as a whole arent the issue here, Druids are. Nothing prevents them from taking multiples of those other classes to fill in for us. We also differ on where we can use upgrades since i happen to believe Druids could use upgrades in the exp grouping dept as well, not just raiding.

As far as i'm concerned, a Druid nor Cleric matches up to a Shaman in terms of overall class balance. To keep giving all of them the same upgrades does nothing to balance us in relation to one another, which imo is the bigger issue.

Why must it always be "us vs. them" in reguards to healing?

I love a shaman in my group. I love a cleric in my group. I am orgasmic with both in my group. We 3, by working together, can turn a 6 man group nto a killing machine with little to no downtime in any situation or zone. EQ is about working together, not "us vs. them". Improved healing across the board helps everyone in the game.

Fairweather Pure

But so do they.

The cleric doesn't. The cleric is already at 100%. Clerics cannot get any higher because they have CH and CH defines the 100% mark.


That ability only helps balance priest classes in relation to everyting else, when priest classes as a whole arent the issue here, Druids are.

Priest classes are the issue here because healing as a whole is the issue. Any approach that looks solely at druid healing is doomed to failure.


Nothing prevents them from taking multiples of those other classes to fill in for us.

That's been the case before, and it will always be the case. Druids will, and should, never be above 70% to 80% of the healing power of a cleric. If you are looking for a class for a particular role or slot, and that slot is purely for healing, and you have a cleric and druid, you take the cleric. Nothing wrong with that.

You take the druid if you are looking for other things in addition to healing. And I'm not addressing those other areas here. That was all part of the druid petition. Here and now, we're focusing on healing changes.


We also differ on where we can use upgrades since i happen to believe Druids could use upgrades in the exp grouping dept as well, not just raiding.

And you don't think that having a 2500 hp direct heal, or a group heal like Prexus, would make a druid more desirable to an XP group?

Note that I say more desirable, period. Not more desirable than a cleric for a pure healing role.

"Why must it always be "us vs. them" in reguards to healing?"


Why shouldnt it be? Druids get groups based on what other classes perceive they contribute. This includes invites to raids. When all the classes across the board get thsoe same abilities, where does that take us? It doesnt, it actually makes what was given to us more trivial, and easily replaced by more of the other priest classes. Then it gives Verantt and every other hater an excuse to say "see, you guys just got something and your still complaining".

Sure, we can all live in that faerie tale world where we look out for one another, and work as a team to improve each other. LOL, gimme a break. I dont think i've ever seen the Wizard board trying to get Druids upgrades, in fact all i seem to see from Wizards are a contempt for Druids. I doubt it happens on the Cleric or Shaman boards either. I believe in being realistic, and upgrades should go to the classes that need them.

Believe it or not, but there is such a thing as class balance, something thats currently an issue. If we gave everybody everthing we got, that would never balance anything.

"All these "discussions", rants, yelling etc on message board is as about as good as screaming at a brick wall."

Yeah but have you tried talking to it lovingly? Offering it some cake? /grin


In all seriousness, Druids do not need a 2k+ heal. Clerics do. Druids DO need (IMO) a group heal that will at least keep groups alive in AE battles.

My average CH on my bard husband is around 2500-3k hp. Why play my cleric in an exp situation when my druid (assuming above proposed changes) could heal just as many hp with just as much mana and do so much more? Not everyone groups with a 7k hp tank.

Wow these aew some wonderful suggestions, I of course like the ideas for Druids, but the idea of battle clerics is a great balance. Couple of quick questions?

- Are we talking a AA skill say "Battle Clarity" where if they are atacking a target and within range they regen like medding? I really like that if so.

- Are new levels and new PoP spells going to take care of this or is this a caster vs melee or caster vs. caster balancing issue?

Why must it always be "us vs. them" in reguards to healing?...

Because most groups, once they have a shaman and cleric, would much much much rather have a Wizard, if they need evac. If they don't need evac they'll take another melee.

Its us vs. them because that is how the game works "who do we need/want in this group to make it worth the time we're going to sink into it? Druid or Wizard? Caster or Melee?

I'm completely for a greater single target heal. I've wanted one for over a year. I don't think we'll get it though. I don't think verant is really going to ever do anything for druids at all. Maybe if we're lucky the 10 percent healing penalty will be taken out but otherwise I think we're just screwed.

In all seriousness, Druids do not need a 2k+ heal. Clerics do.

Clerics need a 2k heal like I need a new Corvette. Druid do need a 2-2.5k heal.

My average CH on my bard husband is around 2500-3k hp. Why play my cleric in an exp situation when my druid (assuming above proposed changes) could heal just as many hp with just as much mana and do so much more?

Pfft, we already have to use 40 more mana than CH just for NT, you can expect a 2k heal to cost us at least 500 mana, unfortunately.

Priest classes are the issue here because healing as a whole is the issue. Any approach that looks solely at druid healing is doomed to failure. /applaud

This statement sums it up perfectly Scirocco. Any chance you could get this made into a 100 foot tall flashing neon sign?

I'm being polite in using the term "brainstorming." A brawl at a drunken frat party might be a more appropriate description of the "CH and Manaburn" thread at times

Perfect description of that thread Scirocco.

For my own particular play style I would be extremely happy to see a 2k heal, group heal and removal of the 10 percent penalty. These changes alone would help tremendously with the secondary healer role I play on guild raids.

Of course the way things currently stand I'd be happy just to get the 10 percent penalty removed along with either a 2k heal, group heal or a HoT spell like Torpor.

You missed the most important healing change: Complete Heal must be removed, and the game re-balanced for it's absence.

Until CH is removed from the game, no healing changes will mean diddly.

I agree 100%

Remove CH and have a small program change all 50+ mobs to remove some of their hit points and lower their attacks some.

This is NOT a hard thing to do. It's just a database with number that can be raised or lowered.

Then remove CH and replace it with "Healing Recovery" or any name you can think of that will heal 2k.

Keep the 5% bonus for clerics and the 10% penalty for Shamen/Druids.

Make this spell cost Clerics 300 mana and Druids/Shamen 450 mana.

Clerics get this heal at 50 and druids/shamen at 60. Move Chlorblast to 50 and Superior heal (for Druids) to 44 (it is MUCH needed here for Druids) and the current level 60 Druids heals down to 55.

The entire game would benifit from this.

It's not that hard - could be done in a few minutes by changing a few numbers in a database.

Nice compilation Scirocco and I agee with your approach; which is not to say, that other areas of priest/druid balancing would not/could not occur, if any of this is implemented.

I wouldn't even be opposed to a group heal-over-time. ;)

The whole high-end game is designed around this one spell.

Running some perl script to lower NPC's hps is not going to do a bit good. And is bordering silly in the suggestion.

But no more silly than the whole game being designed around this one spell. ;) .

They are never going to remove CH. 2 years of game mechanics and mob encounters are designed around CH. I really don't think it would be fair at all to take away an ability that clerics have had for over 2 years. Add to the other priest classes healing ability but don't take anything away from clerics.

I wouldn't tolerate anything being taken away from Druids, ie moonfire, RotG etc. I don't feel clerics should have their very best spell taken away. It's been in game for over 2 years.

Huzza!! Some people actually do realize what the real problem at hand is!

CH must go!

The problem is that as the game stands now, CH justifies it's own existence. Confused? Good, because it's not supposed to make any sense. All mobs since CH was added to the game have been balanced against the fact that clerics will have CH to combat the damage output of uber-mob-x. If their damage output was lower then CH wouldn't be neccessary, or rather, if CH didn't exist then their damage output wouldn't need to be as high as it is to prevent fights from becoming trivial.

However, this obviously isn't going to happen. The vast majority of EQ players are incapable of understanding the balance issues surrounding CH. As such, Verant will never remove it, and druids will be screwed till EQ2 when they can hopefully do it right the first time.

So here's to the Status Quo, at least it functions, if not well.

Laeleriel Starweaver
56th Tunarean Preserver
Innoruuk Server

(Not to say that the presented idea's are bad ones, just that none of them are likely to happen, so I'd just as soon see Verant leave well enough alone rather than have them make things worse. Call me a cynic.)

You know one thing I've noticed about this thread is it represents only those who play druids as backup healer or primary healer. There are also the druids as wizard wannabe's out there who don't really care about healing.

I for one want a cleric in my exp groups so I don't have to be bothered with healing. I play the role of nuker/evacer (basically a wizards role) who can also put down a spot heal on a chanter. I honestly don't want druids to become primary healers. That's not why I chose the class and I know it's not why many others did too.
That's the thing about druids. People who chose clerics, wanted to heal. People who chose wizards wanted to nuke. People who chose druids can have any one of several reasons for doing so and pushing the class into one catagory is a mistake.

"Yeah but have you tried talking to it lovingly? Offering it some cake?"

Has to be fruitcake for it to work.

No offense, Scirocco -- but you're wasting your time. These ideas, no matter how good aren't in tune with their one good idea concept. Yes, those jokers read the boards, and some good has come from it, but if VI can't move on Caster Balance SIX after announcing it, what makes you think they'll do anything now with a bag full of good ideas? Call me a cynic or call me a realist, but you know I'm right. If you want change you're going to have to time it with the PoP release when VI gets all kissy face with everyone so we'll buy the expansion. ..the ole dog and bone trick they always do. You wait - we won't see caster balance until PoP comes out. And if that doesn't upset you, nothing will.

People who chose druids can have any one of several reasons for doing so and pushing the class into one catagory is a mistake.

I agree. The problem is that druids have been pushed into the damage dealing role. The healing role is no longer a realistic option. Moonfire is on par in mana efficiency with some of the level 60 wizard nukes. Nature's touch is on par in mana efficiency with level 34 cleric heals.

You wait - we won't see caster balance until PoP comes out.

What I like to see here, an optimist.

They are working on healer balancing now, but it will take much longer than melee balancing. We may see some of the first rounds of healer balancing when PoP comes out, but I expect it to take much longer than that even. And if they don't get it any better than they did melee balancing then there isn't much to look foward too. Kinda sad that a monk can mitigate damage better than a warrior 70% of the time.

I am for druids getting better direct heal at 60
I am for druids getting HoT spell at 60 similar to torpor
I am for druids getting party heal

ON THE OTHER HAND,

Its just wrong to give shamans more better direct heal. Everyone should realise that, they are already powerful with torpor and slow, and when slow landed heal not much needed anymore. However, druids have no slow, so it would be most fair for druids getting a direct heal at 60 .

Regards

"Moonfire is on par in mana efficiency with some of the level 60 wizard nukes. Nature's touch is on par in mana efficiency with level 34 cleric heals."


hmmmm good point. I agree, I'd love a 2k heal and a group heal like wave of prexus.

Don't you think just giving us those 2 things would pretty much do it?

Nature's Recovery has a recast delay of *90* seconds. It takes 3 minutes to heal 900 hitpoints. In a 6 person group, one druid can keep this spell up on 2 group members. In a group where one person is taking all the damage, a druid can use this spell once every 3 minutes.

Changing the recast delay to 30 seconds would allow a druid to keep the spell up on an entire 6 person group. Changing the rate of regeneration could help in single-tank situations, but the recast delay would still be a severe limiting factor.

-Quelm, Hierophant

I want a damned Karana faithstone so I can port to Rivervale. I hate running there from MT

On the CH Manaburn thread..

Kaysha (the cleric) said:

This was something I was thinking off too ... some form of new regen type spell. How about a buff that increases efficiency of any heals? Nature's Boon, enhances any heals landing by say 10% or so ...

This sounds like interesting idea to me. Something unique. Something that would maybe up our viability on raids?

Too powerful? Still useless? I haven't really thought it out, it just struck me as a neat idea.

hmmmm good point. I agree, I'd love a 2k heal and a group heal like wave of prexus.

Would work for me as far as druids go. I would be able to heal or nuke fairly well and once again fill the role as a backup healer on a raid.

But healing as a whole won't be fixed until the CH monopoly is broken. There is no reason that one class should be the make or break class on every raid. I don't care who gets CH (although I would rather it be someone else :) ), but it needs to be given to one or two other classes. The mana efficiency or casting time should be severly changed (800 mana or 20 second cast time), but it would allow two of some other class to cover if you come up one cleric short.

The only other option is the removal of CH, but that would take some serious retuning of every single high end encounter in the game and some drastic tactical changes. I just don't think that would be practical.

Good points about cheal being 90% of the time on raids just a 2000-2500 point heal. I'm probably one of those rare clerics that would like to see other priests being able to do more effective healing on raids including participating in the cheal chain. Even if it isn't a cheal, but a 2000 point heal, it'd go a long ways towards helping small guilds like mine.

1. Having played a cleric to level 60 and been utterly frustrated by the narrowness of the class I'd like to see clerics have other abilities and less responsibility. That would entail spreading around some of our abilities so we aren't pidgeon-holed.

2. Have been a member of guilds frustrated by the difficulty of doing raids when there just aren't enough clerics online to help us.

3. Sick of feeling compelled to coming to every raid because they can't do it without more clerics.

However, I also have a level 60 druid. But in my guild we have lots of druids and we use them for nuking, debuffing and healing and are happy to have them along for raids. Because we're always short on clerics and wizards. But their healing capabilities are frustratingly stunted and their nuking capabilities are pretty limited as well in many encounters.

As a guild member of a small, but high level guild, we would benefit hugely from having druids and perhaps even shamans have better healing skills.

There are also the druids as wizard wannabe's out there who don't really care about healing.

Keep in mind that the druid that started this thread (me!) is 90% a nuking druid. I rarely, if ever, am the primary healer for a group, and I don't do much healing on raids. With SCF and the mage wristband, I'm shooting for the crits, baby!


I for one want a cleric in my exp groups so I don't have to be bothered with healing. I play the role of nuker/evacer (basically a wizards role) who can also put down a spot heal on a chanter. I honestly don't want druids to become primary healers. That's not why I chose the class and I know it's not why many others did too.

Absolutely! I always want a cleric in my groups. No question about it. I also have no desire to become a primary healer. If there's no cleric in a group, I get a shaman and make THEM be the main healer for the group. Better yet, you design the group so no main healer is necessary!


That's the thing about druids. People who chose clerics, wanted to heal. People who chose wizards wanted to nuke. People who chose druids can have any one of several reasons for doing so and pushing the class into one catagory is a mistake.

I am not pushing druids into one category by any means. I'm simply focusing on HEALING changes in this thread, and summarizing changes that would boost druids back to a 60% to 70% spot on the healing power charts.

Nuking we aren't so bad off. As I think you've already seen above. A few tweaks in the DD area (and one spell in the DoT area) and we should be close to our old positions on the power charts for these three areas.

Does it solve the design problem of having CH in the game. No, it won't. But it will get us through to EQ2.

Looks like you and have have the same play style Scirocco :)

Yeah I missunderstood your post. I agree that in addition to our cool nuking abilities we need a healing upgrade. I'm usually playing the role of half @#%$ back up healer on raids and nuking in exp groups. It's funny druids really still aren't recognized on raids for their nuking ability. Even last night while doing Katta I had about 2 crits of the 2400+ variety and I got the usual comments "omg I didn't know druids could do that" etc etc.

I was only healer in the "overflow" group, so we still generally get designated as healers and you're right we're totally deficient in that area. Probablly the main reason I hate do to it is that our heals are so increadibly manna inefficent. I can non stop nuke on an encounter and not go oom but I can barely make it through an encounter casting NT without going oom half way through.

I totally agree with the healing upgrades. I don't think we'll get any though. I'm just too pessimistic at this point.

>It's funny druids really still aren't recognized on raids for their nuking ability.

Some of us are :-) :-)

It's funny druids really still aren't recognized on raids for their nuking ability.


You just gotta burn it in their consciousness (or their butts) with crit after crit after crit...:)

"Does it solve the design problem of having CH in the game. No, it won't. But it will get us through to EQ2."

Hmmm sounds like politics to me....If more of us acted quite firmly and demonstrated our distaste for the way Verant treats its player base - by refusing to consider buying any more of their &f$!! games until they fixed this one - maybe just maybe we would solve some of the problems.

I for one will never allow them to "get me" with another heap of broken promises. PoP - and for sure - EQ2 has no chance with me. Also they loose my three accounts all together if this situation is not fixed soon.

I do not believe in business or as a customer that it is a good thing to "turn the other cheek". Verant have had three years plus of second chances with me! I have finished turning my cheek around for the next slap! I have also lost enough friends to no longer have the "I stay in the game because of my friends" excuse anymore!

I just wish enough of the druid population really felt badly enough about this to REALLY do something about it.

That would make for one quick fix - whatever form it takes.

Sorry but in the end only money talks!!!

If this post is too negative for your political theme - I'll understand if you feel the need to remove it.

Abbi - almost ex EQ player

Bang! :)

"You wait - we won't see caster balance until PoP comes out."

"What I like to see here, an optimist."

Actually, that may be optomistic. There is a side bet going on my server right now (pool is up to 7500Kpp) on how many months AFTER PoP is released when Priest class balancing is completed.

We are fully aware VI's 2 big pet projects atm is the New UI and the Bazaar functions. After that it's getting PoP ready to ship in the box by release date. There is a chance we may not see Priest balancing adressed for a LONG time.

Ellzii

You thought I was kidding? We might see some before PoP, but it will just be token stuff. The only way they finish before PoP is if they make a few very small changes and declare healing balanced (which may be what they end up with even if they stretch it till Christmas).

Tuved whether we are recognized for our nuking ability or not is beside the point for the majority of us.

In my guild people do realize we can nuke. Hell some of the raid leaders try hard to get our druids free to nuke.

But the bald truth is that if you have 40 to 50 people at a raid you may only have 4 to 5 clerics in many guilds. Some raids we have up to 8, some raids we have a few. But if 4 clerics are in CH rots on MA/SA/TA, that may leave 1 cleric to heal everyone else.

We all know that ain't gonna happen. Hello gimp cleric land.

I think we all have bumper stickers on our butts saying "I would rather be nuking..."

Personally I'm a big defender of Druids getting a better heal, but I don't wanna become a second rate Cleric. This means all we'll be doing is sitting, standing, healing, sitting, and that is NOT what I wanna do in a group. I already did that long enough from 30 to 50 in all the groups I was in...
Druids should get the healing they should have got ages ago. We need a 'defined' ability which at this moment we don't have. We can solo and kick @#%$, but generally we aren't appreciated for what we can do in a group because of the mentality out there that druids are good for nothing and those damn pocket dr00dz... /rude droodz
Personally I tend to get pickup groups and they tend to go well (even my 'Seb Group from Hell' went well except for a few things, but that's a story for a rainy day). I solo a lot also (Chardok/SF), but I also spend countless hours LFG on some occasions and that pisses me off.
I'm not holding my breath on what Verant decides to give us when they implement Caster Balancing, but it had better be good, because SWG is just around the corner and I'll be one click away from cancelling my EQ account when it does hit the stores if I don't like what I see (meaningless threat :P ).

All these healing upgrades are fine and dandy, but Clerics will always be the best at this.

A thought to ponder on:
How many Mages do you invite to raids for their nuking?

Ciao for now!

I agree, druids healing powers should be increased. BUT we should not get a direct heal for more hp then we currently have.

Giving a druid a heal 2500hp for 500 mana would practically eliminate the need of a cleric in a day by day group situation.

There might be some dungeons you still need a cleric like maybe new CT and shissar temple, but with such a heal a druid would replace a cleric most groups.

getting better at the cost of others is not the way to go.

So I'd suggest following changes for the druid class. I agree there should be changes to other classes heals, too, but I leave it up to them to write them down.


- remove 10 percent healing penalty.

- remove recast time on natures recovery, and let it do it's healing in maybe 5 ticks.

- reduce casting time on natures touch to maybe 3.5 seconds, and reduce mana cost to 320. and make it a lvl 58 spell.

- and finally, give us a groupheal that is capable of countering ae damage in big fights at lvl 60 (yes, 60. you need something to look forward, and any class should get it's most powerful spells at 60).


None of the above changes would put us anywhere near clerics, but would greatly increase our powers in a raid situation.

And this is how it should be, in my eyes.

cu
Turrwin Trickle
Hierophant
Innoruuk

Giving a druid a heal 2500hp for 500 mana would practically eliminate the need of a cleric in a day by day group situation.

I have news for you. Most high level XP situations now already don't need much in the way of healing, from a druid, shaman OR cleric.

Moreover, I challenge your basic assumption that a cleric should be necessary for an XP group. NO CLASS should be necessary for an XP group. Whether or not a group can form for an XP group should not depend on whether a cleric is available. In this case, healing should be a fungible commodity.

In addition, I further challenge your assumption that a cleric would not be wanted in an XP group that had a strong need for healing. This is where CH shines. The DPS is reasonable and relatively predictable, and this is where a cleric can hit the tank with a CH for 80% or more of the tank's HPs. Have you never grouped with a cleric that lets the tank's HPs drop below 20% before landing a CH??

A 2500 hp heal cannot compete with a 4000+ point CH. Don't take the average 2500 hp CH numbers as good for anything but a very high level raid where there is a 2.5 second CH rotation set up (and there CH is necessary for the 6000 and 7000 point heals that show up a few times each minute). If you consider other raid situations and XP situations, the average CH does more in the range of 4000 to 5000.

"Absolutely! I always want a cleric in my groups. No question about it. I also have no desire to become a primary healer. If there's no cleric in a group, I get a shaman and make THEM be the main healer for the group. Better yet, you design the group so no main healer is necessary! "


Here here! The majority of druids simply want the ability to be reasonable back up healers with the mud flated HPs of today's game. It cracks me up that clerics are all bent out of shape on the other thread. Most druids have no desire for CH. Manaburn sounds fun, but not reasonable.

I agree, druids healing powers should be increased. BUT we should not get a direct heal for more hp then we currently have.

2600+ hp self buffed here...I'll take a 2600 point heal thank you.

Ummm, if anything you clerics should be more concerned with Shamans than you should be with Druids. Shamans can already replace you in most groups, as well as Druids obviously. The ability to SLOW and TORPOR then CANNIBALIZE can be more effective than what a cleric and Druid can do together in the right situations. They can also add melee bufffs, more importantly haste.

You tell me if SLOW along with Hasting the melee, which after SLOW makes most mobs trivial, and w/ Haste allows for much better dps than what we can provide(speaking as a group, not individually, and dont gimme this crap about a Druid damage shield) isnt more 'infringing' than a Druid. Wake up Clerics, you attack Druids cuz Druids are easy to pick on, when Shamans have made you much less needed. In fact, the ONLY time i can heal adequately as a Druid is with a Slower. Any Druid here that tells you they can play main healer having close to constant pulls w/o a slower is full of it.

Then we get to Torpor and Cannibalize. The 1200 heal for 200 mana and the ability to 'liche' mana when needed. Sure, Torpor has some drawbacks, but the drawbacks dont mean crap in relation to how effective the heal is. I still cant believe people have the nerve to complain about Torpor, or even say its remotely bad. I dont think i've been in one situation where i got mad at a Shaman for torporing, and only stupid tanks will complain about it. If they cant stand being slowed for a minute while everyone else is pounding at a slowed mob then screw them. Meanwhile a Druid in that situation would be spamming his heals(assuming the mob isnt slowed) and going oom after that one fight.

So you see Clerics, a Shaman can effectively not need anybody but tanks and melee. Some form of mana regen helps, but i know 2 lvl 60 Shaman who run around that just pickup high melee dps in their groups and their set. They've 'infringed' on Cleric healing a long time ago, so if your gonna whine that upgrading a Druids healing will make you obsolete, than you might as well wake up and see that Shamans already have :P

btw, this is why i'm not for upgrading all priest classes across the board with the same heals. It doesnt do anytning but make Shaman a more preffered class, even more-so if they got something like a big direct heal, which along with their other abilties will make them completely superior in that priest role.

I say just make NR a group regen and cut the time it heals in half and be done with it.

On a side note... You guys know that VI reads the threads right? Don't be surprised if some of these ideas are being tested as we type.

I have news for you. Most high level XP situations now already don't need much in the way of healing, from a druid, shaman OR cleric.
exactly. you don't need a cleric in your group as soon as you have a good slower with the heals druids have by now. why increase hp on druid heals then?

Moreover, I challenge your basic assumption that a cleric should be necessary for an XP group. NO CLASS should be necessary for an XP group. Whether or not a group can form for an XP group should not depend on whether a cleric is available. In this case, healing should be a fungible commodity.
where did I say that? as stated above, clerics aren't needed already today in many groups. if you give druids that 500/2500 heal, you would lower the need of a cleric even more.

In addition, I further challenge your assumption that a cleric would not be wanted in an XP group that had a strong need for healing. This is where CH shines. The DPS is reasonable and relatively predictable, and this is where a cleric can hit the tank with a CH for 80% or more of the tank's HPs. Have you never grouped with a cleric that lets the tank's HPs drop below 20% before landing a CH??
agreed again, clerics would still be wanted in groups that have a high demand of CH. but that would limit them to shissar temple, new CT, kael arena and maybe golems in sebilis. did I forget a zone?

A 2500 hp heal cannot compete with a 4000+ point CH. Don't take the average 2500 hp CH numbers as good for anything but a very high level raid where there is a 2.5 second CH rotation set up (and there CH is necessary for the 6000 and 7000 point heals that show up a few times each minute). If you consider other raid situations and XP situations, the average CH does more in the range of 4000 to 5000.
and again, agreed. as a heal, CH would be still way better as the druids heal. BUT the group won't care whose heal is more manaefficient. as long as the group is healthy and does not have more downtime, they will be happy with the druid healing. and a druid can contribute so much more to a group then a cleric, when healing isn't the limitating factor anymore.

as already stated in my first post, a 500/2500 heal would eliminate the need of a cleric everywhere in a group situation except a handful of zones.

the fact, that CH is way overpowered does not give us the right to claim overpowered heals for ourselves.

cu
Turrwin Trickle
Hierophant
Innoruuk

Most clerics would be in favor of getting rid of CH. I'm not advocating aking something away from another class...Notice my sig ;)

See, while we have that game-defining spell, we are never going to get any kind of upgrade we might want. Nothing, nada, zip. Anytime clerics ask for anything, the answer is, "but you have complete heal. you don't need anything else." Our answer? "then get rid of complete heal."

"exactly. you don't need a cleric in your group as soon as you have a good slower with the heals druids have by now. why increase hp on druid heals then?"

The point is Druids NEED a good slower. Shamans, nor Clerics need one. Dont you see the inequity here?
------------------

"where did I say that? as stated above, clerics aren't needed already today in many groups. if you give druids that 500/2500 heal, you would lower the need of a cleric even more."

Havent Shaman already done that? Why didnt you ever whine about them making you 'less needed'? Why should Druids be the only priest class that relies on 2 other classes in order to function because they need slow. Niether a Cleric(becaue of CH) nor a Shaman need support :P
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"agreed again, clerics would still be wanted in groups that have a high demand of CH. but that would limit them to shissar temple, new CT, kael arena and maybe golems in sebilis. did I forget a zone?"

Yeah, you forgot every raid zone. You forgot every situation a 5-6k hp tank is present, and can use CH to its fullest even in the 'weaker zones' which even makes it more wanted, as well as overpowering. Much, much better than what a Druid offers, and would offer with a heal upgrade in terms of healing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"and again, agreed. as a heal, CH would be still way better as the druids heal. BUT the group won't care whose heal is more manaefficient. as long as the group is healthy and does not have more downtime, they will be happy with the druid healing. and a druid can contribute so much more to a group then a cleric, when healing isn't the limitating factor anymore."

What you stated here is absolutely silly. You do realize mana efficiency has a direct impact on downtime, right? LOL, tell me how much more we contribute that other classes cant. Snare? Rangers, SK's, Necro's, any root class(just ask Pallys), etc. SOW? give me a break, everyone has a horse, jboots/tboots, run3, etc. Evacs? The ability we use once a week? Dont make me laugh. In reality, clerics can root park better than Druids can. Clerics can nuke pretty well, and are very underrated in that dept, its just that their usually too busy healing. There really isnt much that we offer that other classes cant fill in for.
-------------------

"as already stated in my first post, a 500/2500 heal would eliminate the need of a cleric everywhere in a group situation except a handful of zones."

LOL, clerics already have the franchise on raids. They are already more wanted than Druids will ever be in exp groups. What more do you feel Clerics deserve?
---------------------

"the fact, that CH is way overpowered does not give us the right to claim overpowered heals for ourselves."

Why arent you saying the same for Torpor? Thats just about as good as the heal being proposed, although it would be 2 torpors to equal that new proposed heal. The mana efficiency is the same, and thats what really counts. You clearly show a double standard against Druids, but seem to have no problem with Shamans having a heal that makes you 'unwanted'.


Edit- just realized the person that posted this is a Druid, WTF? Honestly, i just dont think you have any idea what your talking about :/

as already stated in my first post, a 500/2500 heal would eliminate the need of a cleric everywhere in a group situation except a handful of zones.

The point is to eliminate the absolute necessity of a cleric. It sounds like you want clerics to be necessity in all situations therefore garunteeing you a group slot. No one class should have that ever!

Why is it so bad to have to compete with Druids and Shamen for group slots? It is supposed to be that way. Clerics are very lucky because they can compete(yes they can) for spots in exp groups and are REQUIRED for raiding groups. Druids can compete for exp spots and are NEVER REQUIRED for raiding.

Druids would love a garuntee for a raiding slot, but would be happy just be more desired. Clerics want to be more desired than druids for exp slots. Sounds very lopsided to me.

I've earned the right to be pessimistic. Nobody, including Verant had expectations that balance would take 6 months to never to complete when they first announced it BACK in March - at least they weren't forthcoming with that information. MMPOGs are unique in that they can carry a life of several years so a fix can take some time in an industry where games have a life expectancy of less than six months. However, to do what they did - to utterly and completely screw up a class two years in, to the point where Ubers guilds like AfterLife have 17 Clerics and only 3 Druids out of over 70+ members in Vex (and these are hard core players that know their @#%$), just goes to highlight how screwed over this class is. If you think I'm bitter - look around. I'm not alone. You want to walk around Norath while Verant blows sunshine up your bumm, well go right ahead. I'm gonna bitch until it's fixed.

Hi,

A>
On the subject of a nuking druid -v- a healing druid...give the healing upgrade and let us use our mana as the situation dictates. You wont have the mana/aggro to do both at the same time, if so then yes do a bit of both. The lost mantle of masters of travel is replaced with the true mantle of diversity.
It all hinges on healing, sorry moonfire if you have it does not make you a nuke/evac wizard.

B>
On the subject of healing powers...

I would not mind a:
1. group heal
2. 1999 hp heal

For clerics:
I could ONLY guess what they want, but they really
need some variety.
My lame examples:
1. Self port to the firepots
2. 10% increase on nukes, -25% cast time.
3. lvl 60 quick, strong root.

For Shamen:
1. Some minor non-healing improvement. Sorry, thats the way I feal about this.

Nor would this make you as healing cleric.

------------

I think this balances us a bit with shamen, and
re(green)leaves some stress on clerics. It could also please clerics if they got some decent non-heal skills in the balance...man is their spell lineup boring.

You guys know that VI reads the threads right? Don't be surprised if some of these ideas are being tested as we type.

Yes, I know. That's why I distilled this summary of ideas out of that rather contentious thread, hoping that a Verant type would be more willing to read a consise summary rather than plow through that.

"sorry moonfire if you have it does not make you a nuke/evac wizard.
"


Well, yeah I guess I can't manaburn :p

Call me anti-priest if ya want, but truth be told, I don't like being main healer in an exp group (fyi- usually, exp grinding for me is with a couple groups of guildies, not pickup groups). It's when we're short a cleric, I'm nudged into the main healer role by default. Why? Because druids:
1) have heal spells
2) don't have another unique niche that would make anyone say "let the shaman be main healer because we need the druid for ___."

Until/unless VI gives us something to fill in that blank, we're relegated to playing healer; during raids, this means playing patch healer while CH chain is getting underway plus spot heals for others. So, until/unless VI gives us a unique ability for raiding, I guess we do need a heal upgrade.

But I still contend that giving all priest classes the same new direct heal is counterproductive to balancing the druid class. Just look at how many times we've been passed by for improvements because we have such a variety of spells (mostly utility). The fact that someone HAS the spell in their book DOES count towards desirability, EVEN if they have a spell which can perform a function better, and EVEN when that spell is shared by others. E.g. clerics have CH so this spell wouldn't benefit their desirability? Please rethink that sentiment.

~Firemynd

Time for some out of the box thinking...

For druids:

Level 55, 80 point AoE (not group, AoE) instant heal, 0.5 second cast time, 218 mana with no non-cleric penalty, good range, and low aggro. If it hits six people for full effect, it has the same ratio as Chloroblast, if it hits a full raid force, it's far, far better.

This heal is intended to be a specialist heal for countering AoE damage. It would be fairly useless in most experience groups and would do nothing to displace clerics from their main raid role, the CH rotation. More druids would mean you could counter AoE damage more effectively, and druids would be very useful supplemental healers for some non-MT encounteres.

For clerics:

1. A line of haste spells identical in level and percent haste to enchanter haste spells, but self only.

2. A self only buff that imbues the cleric's weapon with a level dependent proc that is a combination of a damage over time with an initial damage component, a slow, and a snare. The exact amount of the slow and damage, the resistability of the spell, and the frequency of the proc should be tuned to produce a total melee output which allows a cleric (with self haste) to solo with about middle-of-the-road effectiveness.

Generally speaking, I think those changes would solve most of the problems. I object to moving clerics to a melee damage table or giving them special melee skills like bash or double attack, but I think spells that increase their melee effectiveness are not out of line, so long as that melee effectiveness is not good enough that a cleric would reaonably be expected to melee in a group or raid. At the same time, these changes do give druids a definite raid role at many raids, without changing them in any meaningful way for everyday experience groups.

- Chronomis

I agree with your logic Firemynd. We fulfill alot of those 'little roles' simply because other classes are too busy doing more important things. They have many of the same abilities.

Although, i dont mind playing a healer. I'd much rather nuke, but nuking isnt a niche that will get us groups. Rogues, Wizards, monks, and even mages can fill a damage niche better than we can. So even improving us in that facet wont help us too much.

In my experiences, i've found i'm picked up more often than not to play a healer role in some form or another in most exp spots. I'm rarely picked in exp groups to nuke damage, there are much better options for that from classes that dont need mana. However, i do nuke when i have the mana in those situations, and i'm not getting strained for heals.

In raids, i generally nuke more than i heal. We have lots of Druids, and most of them are more defensive-minded than i am so i figure they pickup the healing slack. Not saying i dont patch, since i do but i really tend to nuke more. I'm usualy debuffing first anyways, and thats when patchers are usually patching. In anycase, these are my experiences in regards to the healing-nuking Druid thing. Guess i'm kinda both, but fall more under the nuke category when it comes to raiding.

I've had to play all 3 priest classes at 60th level. I started playing as a druid, switched to shaman to fill a hole in my guild's roster, and filled in and played clerics.

My general thoughts on the points that Scirocco brought up in balancing the priest classes.

1. Removal of the 10% penalty for non-cleric classes above level 50.

There is no good reason why this penalty should exist since priests are given seperate heal lines. It makes sense pre-51 since all 3 priests share the same heal spells up to Superior Heal, but after Divine Light everyone gets different spells. (Which reflects the confusion that the designers have about healing)

2. Addition of a direct heal for clerics and druids (and possibly shaman). In rough form, it would have the following characteristics:

--2000 to 2500 hp heal
--cast time and mana in the same range as NT
--clerics would get a few levels earlier (57/58)

3. Move NT to level 57/58 for druids to make room for the new direct heal at 60.


With respect to the difficulty of high end raid encounters this is a tough one to go for.

As someone has pointed out, complete heal chains are set at such high speeds because they need to account for large bursts in damage, from flurry, rampage, procs or the random number generator. One way of smoothing out the bursts is to use spot direct heals. This is important also when mobs have AEs which can interrupt priests and a chain can be disrupted.

Likewise, in my opinion it doesn't really address the root problem which is the scaling of complete heal as characters gain more hit points.

If anything if a move is made in this direction I'd prefer to see some sort of percentage heal implemented for priests, a castable Mend, this addresses the scaling problem while filling the same hole.

4. A group heal for druids at level 57/58. Possibly equivalent to Healing Wave of Prexus (paladins).

A reason (and its a dumb one) for druids do not have a group heal of some sort is that they historically (1-50 EQ) never got one.

If anything the developers and designers can argue that druids already get their group heal in the form of group regnerations.

Maybe a better group regeneration at 60 is in order? In fact I rarely cast group regeneration in my high level groups anymore since almost everyone is using a the effect from the 10th Coldain Ring. Something with 20-30 points per tick and maybe a +attack effect could be in order. (Alot of this is mudflation, but really, IMHO, no item that a melee can right click should have an effect better then a castable spell).

5. Possible new HoT for druids, healing in the 1100-1300 range (or just CE with a penalty). Perhaps as a replacement for NR for druids.

Should've been done ages ago. Unfornetunately I don't see them doing it for various reasons, not least of which is they haven't done it yet.

6. Give Clerics something to enhance versatility, damage upgrade, and/or solo power.

This is extremely difficult to do without stepping on too many other classes' toes.

Personally, as of now, with focus effects sort of in, current item availability, and current spells, I feel that the priests are as closely balanced as they've ever been since just before the release of Kunark. All three have VERY different roles with respect to the high level, multi group encounter game, roles which have evolved as the game has matured.

Because of the nature of the roles balacing the priests with respect to each other is difficult at best since weighing the values of each role is a matter of opinion, not measurement.

Chronomis, I like the idea of the AoE heal. It's not overpowering and requires the right conditions to be effective. Maybe up the hp healed to around 100-150, as most AE spells tend to hit for around 300. 80 just seems like too little.

@Broomhilda

The point is Druids NEED a good slower. Shamans, nor Clerics need one. Dont you see the inequity here?

shamen ARE the slowers. and in the zones a cleric is a necessity, you need a slower, too. otherwise damage of the mobs is simply to high. did you ever fight in shissar temple with a group? I did pretty often. when one of those unslowable mobs shows up, cleric is pretty much oom after 1 fight.


Yeah, you forgot every raid zone. You forgot every situation a 5-6k hp tank is present, and can use CH to its fullest even in the 'weaker zones' which even makes it more wanted, as well as overpowering. Much, much better than what a Druid offers, and would offer with a heal upgrade in terms of healing.

I'm not talking about a raid. Noone disagrees that clerics are a must on a raid. but that does not help them in a group situation.

why would you need a CH in a weaker zone, when a natures recovery and a natures touch every 5 to 10 kills is sufficient? a heals efficiency in a group situation is not measured by the healthpoints of the person healed, but solely by the damage taken from mobs compared to your heal.


What you stated here is absolutely silly. You do realize mana efficiency has a direct impact on downtime, right?

see above. clerics heals are more mana efficient, sure. but on the other hand druids nukes/dots are more mana efficient as the clerics pendants. this brings us up to par when it comes to mana efficiency.

LOL, tell me how much more we contribute that other classes cant. Snare? Rangers, SK's, Necro's, any root class(just ask Pallys), etc. SOW? give me a break, everyone has a horse, jboots/tboots, run3, etc. Evacs? The ability we use once a week?

but you realize that we have all of the above mentioned abilities in ONE person, whereas you'd have to add several different classes just to add the benefit a druid gives? and that a cleric has NONE of those abilities?
what about regen, thorns, strength, invis, harmony, charm, glamour of tunare, soe? all situational, sure, but we have it and clerics don't.

LOL, clerics already have the franchise on raids. They are already more wanted than Druids will ever be in exp groups. What more do you feel Clerics deserve?

again, I'm not talking about a raid.
I agree, a cleric is wanted more in an exp group than a druid right now in most zones. but when you give a druid that 500/2500 heal this would drastically change, a cleric wouldn't stand a chance against a druid in nearly every zone.

Why arent you saying the same for Torpor? Thats just about as good as the heal being proposed, although it would be 2 torpors to equal that new proposed heal. The mana efficiency is the same, and thats what really counts. You clearly show a double standard against Druids, but seem to have no problem with Shamans having a heal that makes you 'unwanted'.

torpor is unbalancing, especially for a shaman with canni, you are right. but that does not in any way affect the fact that the 500/2500 heal would make clerics unwanted in most xp groups, and that is all I am stating.

@Peppin

The point is to eliminate the absolute necessity of a cleric. It sounds like you want clerics to be necessity in all situations therefore garunteeing you a group slot. No one class should have that ever!

there is no absolute necessity for a cleric in a group situtation. and in a raid scenario, do you really think a 500/2500 heal would change the necessity of clerics?


Don't get me wrong, I do agree with all of you that we druids need an improvement, especially when it comes to raiding.
I just don't think that your 500/2500 heal idea is the way to go.


cu
Turrwin Trickle
Hierophant
Innoruuk

there is no absolute necessity for a cleric in a group situtation. and in a raid scenario, do you really think a 500/2500 heal would change the necessity of clerics?

/blink

Ok..using your own example above:

shamen ARE the slowers. and in the zones a cleric is a necessity, you need a slower, too. otherwise damage of the mobs is simply to high. did you ever fight in shissar temple with a group? I did pretty often. when one of those unslowable mobs shows up, cleric is pretty much oom after 1 fight.

Now...tell me again how there is no absolute necessity for a cleric in groups?

Was gonna respond, but Aidon the Hobbit of Fury got it for me. :)

"shamen ARE the slowers. and in the zones a cleric is a necessity, you need a slower, too. otherwise damage of the mobs is simply to high. did you ever fight in shissar temple with a group? I did pretty often. when one of those unslowable mobs shows up, cleric is pretty much oom after 1 fight."

Well, Sraa is similar to CT in comparison. You clerics dont need slowers in OS, HS, Chardok, or really most 'average' exp spots, whereas a Druid does. And my point with Shamans is their everything a group needs wrapped up into one package, but i guess you did admit later on that Shamans are overpowered.
--------------
"why would you need a CH in a weaker zone, when a natures recovery and a natures touch every 5 to 10 kills is sufficient? a heals efficiency in a group situation is not measured by the healthpoints of the person healed, but solely by the damage taken from mobs compared to your heal."

Ummm, yes it is when we're talking about CH. The tanks HP's have the biggest impact on just how effective and mana efficient CH is. A tank with 6k hp's getting healed by CH is a hell of alot more mana efficient than one with 4k hps. The thing is this doesnt only apply to raids, its even more powerful in relation to exp groups. Its that many more hits you can wait until you cast that one spells that completely heals the tank for a fixed cost. Whereas a Druid has an awful mana efficiency and isnt based on percentages, its just a direct heal with a fixed cost.

So your one CH which costs 400 mana to completely heal a 5k hp tank is roughly equivalent to 4 NT's + 1 NR = 1850mana for a Druid to heal to full as you suggested.
-------------------
"see above. clerics heals are more mana efficient, sure. but on the other hand druids nukes/dots are more mana efficient as the clerics pendants. this brings us up to par when it comes to mana efficiency"

I'm sorry, but our nukes and DoTs arent helping much when we're chosen to heal. Our DoTs for the most part are used mostly in terms of soloing, or higher end mobs with alot of hp's. We have good nukes, but other classes have much better, including some classes that can heal and have short dots that do more than our nukes.
--------------------------
"again, I'm not talking about a raid.
I agree, a cleric is wanted more in an exp group than a druid right now in most zones. but when you give a druid that 500/2500 heal this would drastically change, a cleric wouldn't stand a chance against a druid in nearly every zone."

I still believe Clerics will still be getting groups if that were implemented. But i also agree that Clerics could use a boost in other abilities, more-so soloing. I dont believe Shaman should get anything. I cant even begin to think how powerful they'd be if you gave them that 2500 heal along with what they currently have.
-------------------------

Yes, a aoe heal that heal only 80 hit point is not much (when the mob is doing a 300 domage in aoe), but it will permit to more that one druid into the raid.

One of our trouble in a raid isn't that the druids almost don't scale?

But imagine 5 druids casting this spell, the lag they will do....... (oups, sorry the DM controled mob have go LD).

Eridalafar

It can't be worse than MGB spam :)

And I guess giving it a lower amout is good, as having 6 druids on a raid alternating patch/nuke can now patch/nuke/AoEheal for added pleasure!

Well, it looks like the 10% is going, going, soon to be gone =)


forums.interealms.com/ranger/showthread.php?s=e6b5c5b83ab9a9349206ba90151b5dd3&threadid=5975 (http://forums.interealms.com/ranger/showthread.php?s=e6b5c5b83ab9a9349206ba90151b5dd3&threadid=5975)

Gonna keep this Short as i can, but i think three spells such as these fictionous ones im presenting here... should be roughly what it takes to balance a Druid. (dont remove the DoT Scirocco :)

-Hasten Death (level 59, unresistable DoT, 2.5k damage in 10 ticks, 750 mana).

-Pack Natures Elixir (level 60, GROUP, healing 1200 hp over 4 ticks, 800 Mana) (no single target version, making this inefficient soloing, and not that amazing in groups)

-Pack Natures Regrowth (Level 60, GROUP, Healing 50hp per tick for 20 Ticks, 600 Mana) (no Single target version, and this stacks with the elixir, but overwrites RotG)

These are spells which would help us Greatly in raids such as NtoV and the like, yet have less practical value in Exp groups and solo,
For a cleric they should get a spell which improved their exping soloing and general fun outside of raids, my choice would be a version of Mark of Karn, which adds mana on hits rather than health. thats about it from me :p

More than getting new heals as a druid, I prefer new utility like group high resistence spells. I want things that ONLY we can do rather than making us more cleric like.

In that vein, I'd like stuff like this:

1) A level 51, and perhaps a later improvement of the same spell, group damage shield which ONLY lands on plate tanks (SK, Warrior, Paladin) increasing their aggro ability while not landing on the casters or that poor ranger.. ;)

We have single and group DS's already if you do want to cast it on the ranger or everyone.

2) Both group type damage shields and group type resist spells but that ONLY work on any pets belonging to the group you cast them on (as in working on all the pets belonging to members of that group) I'm not sure if this one is even possible though.

3) Translocate other but ONLY to the areas that druid only portals go, like surefall glade (where no wiz portal or TL goes anyway so it would not step on their toes.)

4) Something Else I wished for was a new plane, like hate, but which ONLY druid porting went to. I don't see this ever happening now though with planes of power having kind of a more "no more porting linear zone entance method starting at a central hub" (a bit like Luclin to the second power, with more room for the ubers.)


Things like that. Druid is probably the king "swiss army knife" class. Rather than stepping on healing ability of clerics I'd like more utility that makes people feel that they need a druid in their group.

In case you never thought of this, though, you can't have every class in your group. Eventually some class is going to be the one who is left out. It would even be pretty hard for verant to make us feel we need every class at a raid. What can they give the SK and paladin to make us feel they are needed at raids? The druid already has some things that people like on raids.

Aidon say's:
2600+ hp self buffed here...I'll take a 2600 point heal thank you.

I am 2808 unbuffed atm and by the time I walk out of Luclin I will be over 3k unbuffed hitpoints.

I have to agree with Aidon.

During Raids, I can hardly heal our Wizards atm (raid buffs)... takes me about +/- 40 seconds depending on the Wizard. Heh, Necro's are worst but they heal themselves better then I can.

I am 2808 unbuffed atm and by the time I walk out of Luclin I will be over 3k unbuffed hitpoints.

Sobe, could you come into this dark ally please? Oh the large guy with a club? Nevermind him...about that gear you're wearing...

I have chainpulled chardok, ct, ssra mines, fg, velks, seb, kc sewers, ssra snakes, and thunder spirits with no cleric. Clerics are not needed

For many experience grinds yes that is true. Though some camps that is categorically not true. However, while clerics may not be needed they are generally preferred. If you are looking to have a druid fill in as healer in the place of a cleric on the argument that we can add damage, abandon all hope. That means a couple clicky dots that don't run full course before the mob dies. Sure if there is a slower druid may be able to throw a nuke at every 2nd mob or so. But if I am filling in as healer in a group...even with a slower...I don't like to be under 50% mana because if this sh%t hits the fan it will take me at least half a bar to keep the MA alive.

Back on the AoE heal thing it is an intriguing idea but I think it would trivialize too many encounters. My guild typically has about 3 to 4 druids at any given raid (I am druid CL so I decide how many druids we have in guild ; )).

A large guild could trivialize many encounters by creating chains of AoE heals (say 6 druids casting) which would effectively nullify the AOE dmg from mobs which is meant to be the challenge of the encounter.

I think the solution for addressing healing imbalances needs to be looked at in the more traditional "what can I do in my group on this raid" way.

As far as the 2500 heal idea, I like anything that improves us over where we are now (I think you all know what I really think but while I hold to my beliefs I won't repeat em in this thread). Not sure how it could be implemented. Druids certainly should not have a larger direct heal than clerics (regular direct heal that is). But then shamans are so godlike powerful with Torpor (it is the key to their solo strength) I am not sure where a 2500 heal would fit in for them. Of course I don't think it would change their soloing strenght because torpors heal over time is what makes it so effective ... cast it on yourself and let the mob pound away -- slowly -- while your torpor replaces the dmg).

In terms of across the board solutions, I still favor dealing with the Healing Adept ability. I think if that ability were changed so that the 1st level was 5%, second 25% and the third 50%, I think we would have an effective solution that would help all the priest classes and yet not step on anyone's toes. Then NT would be a 1375ish spell, the new 2500 would be very nice at 3750, and our little old CB woudl be come more like a 600hp spell.

Since healing AoE dmg is still too great a challenge chaining CB's together (chain casting CB on 5 people on a serious AoE mob and they are already being hit by the second AoE before you have completed the first round of heals)...I still like the idea of a Group heal spell for about 600hp (or make it group Chloro ... small but fast, with Healing Adept making the hp total more worthwhile).

Final point I would say is that NR should be changed just because it is so irksome and useless...either get rid of the stupid reset or make it last longer like a normal regen spell...or both. Hardly worth memming in its current form.

BarrandAam:

I really hope your not a Troll... I love your pic.. but after seeing some of your other post on other Forums.. I am starting to get that 'Trigger Finger ;)

Please explain.. I may lower my weapon to hear you out =D..



"Sobe has DT with no Recast or Recast Delay, and will Abuse it...."

( "Sobe's Power Trip": I still love Sorrun Though! And he's never on when I go to visit him on his Server!) ** oh and for all u sicko's its a brotherly love!

First, let's get one thing straight about hit points healed per mana spent for non-complete heals...

Direct heals (other than Complete Healing) :

Divine Light (level 53) 350 mana, 1000 hit points healed, 4.5 second cast time. 2.85 hit points per mana. Clerics' best DH spell.

Heals over time :

Celestial Elixir (level 59) 300 mana, 1000 hit points healed, 4 second cast time over 24 seconds (five ticks). That is 3.33 hits per mana. Clerics' best HoT spell.

Group heals :

Word of Restoration (level 57) 900 mana for 750 hit points healed per group member (in range at the time), 4.5 second cast time. Maximum efficiency is 5 hit points per mana. Potential suicide.

Word of Redemption (level 60) 1100 mana for a group Complete Heal, 12 second cast time. Potentially 60,000 hit points healed. Suicide.

Please note that clerics' best DH is 2.85, best HOT is 3.33 and best GH (Ignoring WoR) is 5.

Word of Redemption is near certain Suicide for a cleric to cast even with their invulnerability spells. When the spell lands you WILL be summoned. This leaves a cleric using their 1 second cast time invulnerability. That might seem very likely to channel, but keep in mind that the mob is probably hitting for full amount, has summoned you from a long distance and lag makes it look like you moved while you were casting the spell rather than before so that is a huge channeling gamble. However, you are at full health, standing and trying to cast a level 1 spell. If you should manage to channel this spell, you are invulnerable for 18 seconds but have tanked an uber mob for about 2.5 seconds (spell recovery time and cast time), so you are probably nearly dead by now. When 18 seconds are up, it is extremelly likely you will be summoned and killed. Your survival rate is extremelly low, but at least you get to see a bit more of the fight than you would if you didn't channel. :)

First, keep your spell requests within these limits. You aren't going to get better mana efficiency. It is simply too much work for Verant. They are in the game for profit as any good corporation is. They are not a bad corporation. They make their profit (so they stay in business), make enough profit to expand (so we aren't stuck playing the same old game forever), and really are far better online than some of the games I played before EverQuest. They are miles beyond Dark Suns Online, Diablo Online and Ultima Online ever managed to get.

Second, don't ask for Complete Healing as it stands. This is not to say you can't ask for and get Complete Healing, just not the same Complete Healing that clerics get. You might consider asking for the Complete Healing that is on the Donal's Breastplate. That has a 7 minute buff that can't be overwritten or dispelled before another Donal's Breast Plate spell will stick. The Donal's Breast Plate is a 30 second cast time, but why not allow a druid spending mana on the spell to cast it in 10 seconds (this would please a lot of clerics that get annoyed with those that feel we get 100% hit points every time we cast it if nothing else. Tanks whine when I try to do 80% CHs. :p ). You might consider asking for the Donal's Breast Plate Complete Healing spell and the group CH (Word of Redemption) to fill out your CH needs. That seems balanced enough to me as a cleric. You either have a long recast time or spend massive amounts of mana to do the job, yet is still good for AEs in raids. Consider the suicide portion as a GOOD thing for Druids. You spend half your mana nuking the mob, then when the cleric doing direct healing is starting to sweat, you cast your suicide group CH and wave goodbye. Time it well, and your raid loves you (and your corpse).

Personally, I don't approve on the long recast times on your healing spells. I understand that it is meant to place druids firmly in the back up healer category though. What this means is that you must understand what Verant is trying to do and then ask for what they can give within the Vision. You cannot disagree with them and have them listen to you unless you put it in terms that are acceptable for them. I firmly believe that a post that I put on the EQ Forums is responsible for removing the racial experience bonus system. Instead of arguing that trolls had it hard, I explained how halflings had it hard compared to trolls and backed it up with numbers. This is what you MUST do to make changes. Run the numbers and don't just point fingers at Complete Healing and say it is obvious. Run the number WITHOUT Complete Healing and include everything. Include Regens, DoTs and nukes speeding up fights, and even SOW speeding up pull times if you can. When I was 39, I wasn't grouping with tanks that had 2500 hit points. I considered any Complete Healing over 1 k hit points to be efficient (assuming everyone lived).

Since I am trying to help some druid that understands how to work WITH Verant run the numbers, let's look at Complete Healing from pre-Kunark to present so they can make a better case (since I am rambling along anyway). When I first got Complete Healing, it seemed very balanced to me (as it seemed to Verant when they included it). You could only use it on tanks due to their hit points (pre Velious, it had to be 1 k+ to be effiecient, so you let the tanks get down low), you couldn't heal anyone else for 15 seconds once you began casting it (you couldn't cancel spells back then, you only canceled if the target was a corpse to save mana, a back up healer was very needed to cover for you those 15 seconds), and Taunt was weaker (so agro from casting it was higher).

How Complete Healing has changed...
MUD-flation means tanks have far far higher hit points. Tanks no longer are expected to deal with 20% health before CH lands. They whine when it is timed to land then. They want a 40% CH due to damage spikes from mobs. Raids against Tunare brag about how many K hit points their enchanters had (/boggle). People are at the new 255 mana stat limit and are adding hit point and mana gear since AC does so little for some classes.

You can now Duck out of a CH to heal someone else instead. Since you are healing the tank so early, an emergency can be covered without a back-up healer most of the time. There is LESS need for a back-up healer as a result. Ducking out of a spell was the single most powerful boost to Complete Healing since it was put in the game. Hit point and Stamina gear were incremental gains. Before this, casting a Complete Healing meant you were totally committed for 15 seconds (even if the target became a corpse after you started). Now, you are only committing about 1.5 to 2 seconds after you cancel. This has added massively to Complete Healing in a group, and done tremendous damage to the need for a back-up healer. Taking away ducking for Complete Healing won't affect chain raids much. It would affect groups (which isn't at issue much).

Personally, I think group heals should have always been the province of druids. An Invulnerability spell is nearly a necessity for anything less than a group Complete Heal though. Group Complete Healing should be suicide though (Wow! He saved us all at the cost of his own life! What a guy! What timing!). Without Invulnerability, you really need to cast some form of group HoT to expect to live. Instead of asking for the paladins' group heals, or the clerics' group heals, you might consider asking for a HoT group heal instead. The major difference is that a HoT gives little NO agro when cast. I have cast a HoT on a tank that was being attacked and not even gotten a faction hit when the mob died. That seems about perfect for the leather wearing druid. Useful, but not requiring any armor class, and not stepping on any toes (except the uber mobs maybe). HoTs are not very useful against mobs that dispell though. Buffs seem to be either dispelled based on how soon they will wear off or purely randomly. Dispells done purely randomly gives them an equal chance of being dispelled, but the dispells based on how soon they will wear off will nail the HoTs instantly.

I strongly suggest you either ask for the Donal's type CH, Group CH, or some powerful HoT (within reasonable bounds). I even more strongly suggest you do the numbers and show how it is inline with both paladins' and clerics' abilities, while not stepping on their toes.

I expect that this whole argument doesn't matter anyway. Verant isn't going to change the old zones' to balance for not having Complete Healing. It would simply cost too much money. Verant is most likely going to balance Planes of Power so that Complete Healing is irrelevant, and not allow the spell to be cast in (some at least) of these new zones. Verant is using EQ as a testing server for their new expansions, both EQ 2 and the Playstation EQ. They understand that Complete Healing has limited the game as much as anyone. Do you honestly think clerics liked it when CH chains were started? It takes no great skill to perform a CH chain, and most of us got where we are by Free-For-All healing on raids and skill in groups. CH chains don't require skill or experience. The REAL clerics are being replaced with 2-boxes and powerleveled newbies. The old style clerics despair of this more than druids would imagine. All the work and effort to make our class what it was, is being bled by people that simply wanted to be uber with as little effort as possible. /sigh

Oops! Make that 3.66 hits per mana for Celestial Elixir. It is late, and I am tired.

Don't expect to get any direct healing over 2.85 hits per mana without a long cast time on the spell. Even then, clerics are likely to want it also if it is less than 400 mana to cast.

Run the numbers and don't be too generous with Verant's down time!

Thank you for that great post!

Was really great to read such a thorough exploration of the issue from a cleric's perspective.

I have a couple of quick comments, Kitsinu...

First, regarding channeling that DA... As lots of kiting druids have learned, you can mostly eliminate channel failing due to phantom movement by tapping the right or left arrow keys as soon as you stop and immediately before beginning the spell. That won't do anything about the channeling check while you're being beaten upon, but it definitely helps in cases where you and the game disagree on whether or not you are moving.

My second comment regards the Donal BP solution as a "workable" way to give druids a complete heal. It looks to me like that proposal makes the CH fairly useless in the situation where druids have concerns, yet at the same time makes it more likely to annoy clerics in the area where they are concerned. Such a heal would make druids much more powerful group healers, but on raids buff slot limitations, inflexibility as to who you could cast the spell on, lack of stackability between multiple druids, and and incredibly slow cast time would basically negate its usefulness for the druid's secondary healer role.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can't take complete heal, nerf it in some way, give the nerfed version to druids, and solve everyone's, or even anyone's problems. Real solutions are going to take a little more thought than that.

As for my AoE heal solution being too powerful, essentially negating AoE damage at a certain point, I would like to point out a few things.

Yes, it's very powerful. It allows you in the ideal case to negate large amounts of AoE damage just by bringing enough druids along (hint: bringing more druids along is the idea). However, you could, at least in principle, already do this by bringing along lots of bards, and the bard song would regenerate mana as well as health. While the proposed spell heals a lot more than Chorus of Replenishment, it also requires mana--quite a bit of it, actually--which does place some balancing limitations on it. In a long fight, druids would have a definite need for mod rods to sustain the heals.

The proposed spell is also likely affected by curses, and does nothing with respect to AoE effects that aren't damage (stuns, etc). It's too small to be very helpful in cases where someone other than the main tank starts to take melee damage.

My general feeling is that while it's very powerful, it's not more powerful than lining up as many clerics as you can grab and negating all melee damage on the main tank. The spell proposed also meets this basic criterion: Give multiple druids something to do on a raid which does not compromise the cleric's role in non-raid situations. On a personal note, I would be greatly amused to hear the following: "We can't do the raid today, because although we have enough clerics, we don't have enough druids to counter all the AoE damage."

- Chronomis

Divine Light (level 53) 350 mana, 1000 hit points healed, 4.5 second cast time. 2.85 hit points per mana. Clerics' best DH spell.

Divine light heals 955hp not 1000, which gives it a ratio of 2.73.

Celestial Elixir (level 59) 300 mana, 1000 hit points healed, 4 second cast time over 24 seconds (five ticks). That is 3.33 hits per mana. Clerics' best HoT spell.

CE heals 300hp per tick. That is 1500 hp healed for 300 mana or a ratio of 5.0.

I don't think anyone is proposing druids get CH exactly like a cleric does. Most that are saying that CH should go to another class at an increased mana cost or casting time. A druid using a CH that cost 800 mana would be half (less than actually counting ce) the healer of a cleric. A paly with an 800 mana CH would be even lower since few of them go for the maxed mana like a cleric and druid do. What this would allow for is the replacement of a cleric on a raid by two or three of another class. What it wouldn't allow for is the replacement of clerics on a raid (well, unless you wanted to replace those six clerics with a dozen druids or eighteen palidans). But that is a game fixing issue and most druids would be happy as a class to go with a lower heal. Something in the 2000 hp range with a ratio of 3 or better and a decent cast time would at least give us the chance to keep our party alive while our cleric is in the rotation.

First I'd like to say that if they ever put a group heal on druids every paladin in Norrath will start to complain. Thats the paladins biggest purpose in raids is HWoP, its the one thing that really makes them needed in a raid situation. They do low dps against non undead, there HoT isn't any better than the clerics and is overwritten a lot and their regular heals are worse than most other classes. So all that suggestion does is make druids a replacement for another class in raids.

Why can't they just give Druids something like a 50% heal. Not quite as efficient as complete heal(which generally heals 75%-90%) but serve the same general purpose. It would let them help the CH rotation in a pinch and in a normal group should be more than enough healing to be cast once a fight.


Truth be told I almost never group with a cleric either. Between regrowth of the grove, my own Paladin regen BoT I heal so fast that the druid spamming natures recovery on me keeps me more or less at full health. The only time I group with a cleric, or enchanter for that matter is in a raid type situation or on item camps, almost never in exp camps, unless a friend just needs a group or I'm using one for pleveling. Druid can keep a group with a paladin in it healed just fine.

955 or 1000 for Divine Light? /shrug I just am taking 1000 from EQ Caster's Realm.

Allakhazam's shows that Celestial Elixir is indeed 300 per tick for 4 ticks, so it should be 1200 hit points healed. So it is a 4 hits per mana healed. I was wrong the second time anyway, I was simply too tired. ;)

So far as the Donal's Complete Healing goes, I meant the non-overwritable buff given, not the time taken. A group Complete Healing that gave this sort of buff and had no recycle time doesn't seem like it would step on clerics' toes while be perfect to insure the druids a place in a raid sustaining AEs. The druid would either nuke or backup heal to keep group members alive until the time was right for the near certain suicide of the group Complete Heal. The suicide wouldn't even be certain if the raid called for all druids to begin casting at a command from the leader. Even uber mobs can only summon one person at a time. As a spell that could only be cast once every so many minutes despite having no recycle time, this would allow a reasonably low cast time to make it useful for times when a cleric in the chain was summoned and killed. It takes a bit for the cycle to reorganize from holes, and a druid would be able to fill in that gap with their group heal. This would be nearly certain suicide, so it wouldn't step on clerics' toes in groups as any druid would want a resurrection nearby if they were to cast this instead of their evac.

Honestly, Verant should have made group spells the property of druids. They don't help soloing, so they would only be of use to grouping/raiding druids. Clerics tend to have too much to do with their single target healing to spare the time to cast group heals except when things are getting desperate or there is nothing else to do.

It seems to me that what you should ask for is a group HoT spell if a group Complete Heal is ruled out by Verant. This wouldn't affect the paladins' group healing spell, nor the clerics' big boom healing, and would give druids a very respectable role to fill in a raid that has AE mobs. HoTs aren't high agro, so they would even be survivable for a druid with no invulnerability and low AC. For the nuking druid, once you have cast the HoT, you are free to nuke until the spell is about to wear off (mana permitting).

About casting that one second spell while being beaten on after having been summoned... That is a trick I have learned myself as I must often move around in a group to get a clear line to target a mob so that I can cast a stun quickly without being interrupted. During a raid, the server response can be unpredictable and it can take several seconds for the server to notice that you even turned, and there is no way to tell when the server notices. I normally turn to face the mob beating on me so that I take less damage than with my back to the mob, and jam on the DA hot key. The odds of channeling even if the mob had run over to you instead of having summoned you aren't good. Clerics may wear plate, but we are no more tanks than druids that wear plate and have the same AC.

955 or 1000 for Divine Light? /shrug I just am taking 1000 from EQ Caster's Realm.

Allakhazam's shows that Celestial Elixir is indeed 300 per tick for 4 ticks, so it should be 1200 hit points healed. So it is a 4 hits per mana healed. I was wrong the second time anyway, I was simply too tired. ;)

So far as the Donal's Complete Healing goes, I meant the non-overwritable buff given, not the time taken. A group Complete Healing that gave this sort of buff and had no recycle time doesn't seem like it would step on clerics' toes while be perfect to insure the druids a place in a raid sustaining AEs. The druid would either nuke or backup heal to keep group members alive until the time was right for the near certain suicide of the group Complete Heal. The suicide wouldn't even be certain if the raid called for all druids to begin casting at a command from the leader. Even uber mobs can only summon one person at a time. As a spell that could only be cast once every so many minutes despite having no recycle time, this would allow a reasonably low cast time to make it useful for times when a cleric in the chain was summoned and killed. It takes a bit for the cycle to reorganize from holes, and a druid would be able to fill in that gap with their group heal. This would be nearly certain suicide, so it wouldn't step on clerics' toes in groups as any druid would want a resurrection nearby if they were to cast this instead of their evac.

Honestly, Verant should have made group spells the property of druids. They don't help soloing, so they would only be of use to grouping/raiding druids. Clerics tend to have too much to do with their single target healing to spare the time to cast group heals except when things are getting desperate or there is nothing else to do.

It seems to me that what you should ask for is a group HoT spell if a group Complete Heal is ruled out by Verant. This wouldn't affect the paladins' group healing spell, nor the clerics' big boom healing, and would give druids a very respectable role to fill in a raid that has AE mobs. HoTs aren't high agro, so they would even be survivable for a druid with no invulnerability and low AC. For the nuking druid, once you have cast the HoT, you are free to nuke until the spell is about to wear off (mana permitting).

About casting that one second spell while being beaten on after having been summoned... That is a trick I have learned myself as I must often move around in a group to get a clear line to target a mob so that I can cast a stun quickly without being interrupted. During a raid, the server response can be unpredictable and it can take several seconds for the server to notice that you even turned, and there is no way to tell when the server notices. I normally turn to face the mob beating on me so that I take less damage than with my back to the mob, and jam on the DA hot key. The odds of channeling even if the mob had run over to you instead of having summoned you aren't good. Clerics may wear plate, but we are no more tanks than druids that wear plate and have the same AC.

First I'd like to say that if they ever put a group heal on druids every paladin in Norrath will start to complain.

Paladins are not a Priest class. They are a Hybrid class, with all the benefits thereof. Being able to out heal a pure priest class should not be one of those benefits.

Word of Redemption is near certain Suicide for a cleric to cast even with their invulnerability spells. When the spell lands you WILL be summoned.


It sounds like it would be, but in my experience using this spell over and over and over in HoT / ghetto AE groups it actually is pretty easy to get away with casting it.

I would love to see druids get a slightly better heal, and some of the suggestions in this thread have great promise, I think. However, while clerics will probably always be needed for raids, the same is unfortunately not true for experience groups. With the advent of AA abilities and with Mudflation in general, many camps are being quite easily held with no cleric. I wouldn't want to see an increase in druid healing power push this situation even further, given the druids non-healing attractiveness to a group (dmg. shields, regens, nukes, evacs).

If druids got a better heal and clerics obtained some increase in their soloing power (improved DoT, better defense, undead-only debuffs, etc) I think that'd be a good tradeoff.

Venerable Hadekkin
Proud Servant of Brell
Seventh Hammer

Why is it that Clerics expect compensation when their abilities are given to another class yet Druids seem to give away the store without compensation.

Look at all we have already given away without compensation and don't you think we are owed a few?

To all clerics who are of reasonable mind...

When AA run, horses and yes even Jboots were put into the game what did Druids get in return?

When snare/regen/damage shields/ect... were given out by way of spells or item abillities what did Druids get in return?

When POP comes out with free ports between all starting cities including the nexus ports what SHOULD Druids get in return?

You see we have not gotten anything in return so as far as other classes coming here and saying "let's make a deal" and "I'll give you this skill if you'll give me that skill" I say to them....

We are owed a few. PAY OFF YOU DEPT FIRST before you start asking for more.

955 or 1000 for Divine Light? /shrug I just am taking 1000 from EQ Caster's Realm.

Always be leary of using Caster's Realm statistics. I learned that mistake myself while making my arguments precursing the Petition.

Allakhazam's shows that Celestial Elixir is indeed 300 per tick for 4 ticks, so it should be 1200 hit points healed

That was what CE healed originally, when it also cured poison and disease. It has since changed and heals 1500. I always forget if its 300 for 5 ticks or 500 for 3 ticks. It might be 300 when cast then 300 per tick for 4 ticks. Been a while since I tested it with a cleric heh.

Look at all the things you have given away without compensation? You obviously do not remember how druids used to be. You've been compensated...just obviously not enough.

Druids do need something to compete again in the high end game...but there has to be something they can give without stealing the one and only thing clerics do well. The idea about the 80 point AoE heal is very interesting, it is unique, it steals nothing from another class...and it is just plain a neat idea. The idea of the buff that increases the amount other heals do is very interesting too. To me, these are the avenues that should be pursued, not the just plain better direct targetted heal. These ideas are probably not enough to make full impact, but they are definitely a step in the right direction.

Ok, My Main is a mage, so I may be way off base here.

What I see is druids want to be able to heal better, while not becomming a cleric.

I see clerics want somewhat out of the CH rot.

So, How about making Druids the masters of HoT.

level 55 spell heals 50 to 100 hp a tick Thinking 50 for 100 Ticks.

level 60 is 100 HP a tick for 100 ticks.

or Level 55 100hp a tick for 100 tick

level 60 group version.

I'll leave the mana and casting times to you.

So yeah a driud can heal 5K or even 10K a spell. Its not instant.

It make a druid just as needed on a raid, as it will help to slow the ch rot. and assist everyone else rodding / in AE's way etc.

Slowing the DPS taken by the MT by 100 might not sound like that much. but thats fewer CH's needed by the clerics.

Thats less heals you through out to the all Damage casters including yourself from Rodding. Thats helping with all the Assist in AE's way. Its not a count to 10 stand cast CH sit type of spell.

I think is fits with what you do.

Anyway don't flame too hard. I am a mage, and am one that realize that there are the other classes. Just thought that an out of the box idea might get the people who know the class much better than I do thinking in different directions

/em Dons his flameproof robe.

Da problem wit dat kinda scenario iz drivin da cleriks outta da EXP game.

Right now dere are only 2 reazons to bring da clerik when doing da EXP grindin.

1. You are grindin sumwhere dat da MoBs hit too heavy fer da regular heelerz to keep up. Cuz da group makeup izn't wut it should be (ie optimum)
2. You are grindin sumwher dat if ONE person dies, joo reeely need da rez ta bring dem back or its a 3 howr CR, cause joo need ta fite to da zone, get da nekkid person den fite bak down to da camp spot.

Rite now itz eazy fer me ta play da healer role in da EXP groups. Eben witowt Torpor (cuz meez too low). At meez level meez doin Howling Stonez, Chardok, Basement in KC, Akheva etc. etc. All guud spots. And meez dont need da channy or da clerik. Though dats nice.

And if meez in da fiights where dere too many fer da slows, and meez just chain heelin on da channy, meez go OOM pretty fast. Meez assumin dat da druid would do da same ting. Da point iz dat meez can keep up on da heelin, but when tings go BAD, meez can lose it reel quik. Cuz meez not a clerik. Cleriks fer EXPin at dis point are a "Nice ta have" dey arent da "Need ta have".

Joo giv druids da better heals dat hab a purpose outside of da raids, and joo kill da clerik XPin.

Druidz DO need sumptin fer raids. But den so do Pallys, SKs, rangerz, etc.

Eberywun wants ta be da hero in da fantasy game. But dere can only be so many heeroez.

Joo giv druids da better heals dat hab a purpose outside of da raids, and joo kill da clerik XPin.

Joo batrull EXP grinding solo and poor cleric on 2 boxes
since months.

Trullies run away where heeroez treeforming.

I think the idea of a 66% or 75% heal would help druids a bit too. It would certainly make us a more useful healer in the group situation when healing the main tank. Even if it did have the exact same cast time/mana of CH. We would then be useful in a group situation without making us near the healing power of a cleric. Our groups can survive again.

In the case of raid situations a group heal only helps in AoE mob situations, where as a DD with the lure type resists but at either the lower damage OR a much high mana cost would be beneficial in alot more encounters.

The 3 areas are solo, group and raid.
- Solo, druids are capable of handling there own and I don't think druids need tuning in this area (except maybe the animal line of spells).
- Group, the only thing druids miss here is healing power. So far as I can tell in EQ there is no class which can replace a Cleric if healing is a must. Bards can replace Chanters (for CC), Chanters can replace Shamans (for slows that is). Every class has another class which can fill its place should the need arise, except cleric. This is mainly due to CH. Giving druids a 75% CH (Heals a person to 75%, instead of 100%) or even 66% CH would make them a viable substitute but would not take away the desire to have a cleric.
- Raid, Give druids a lure based DD which is less efficient than the wizard ones. A fire and a cold based one. It could do 1 of 3 things, when compared to the wizard versions, 75-80% of the damage, cost 20% more mana OR has a mean recast time. And Possibly a small group heal, even give us the 1st or 2nd in the cleric line of spells.

These changes would then keep us in our secondary position in the areas we are now but will fill out some of the things we are missing in certain areas without affecting the other areas.

I dunno why peeple aint seein dis.

GROUPS SURVIVE FINE WIT JUST DA SHAMMY HEELIN OR DA DRUID HEELIN. In da EXP grindin scenario.

It gets better when joo hab da channy/bard fer da Mana regen too (Or a good nekro twitch).

Joo kant be sittin dere saying "Our groups can survive again", becauz dats saying dat witowt da clerik, and only da drood heelin, jer groups always DYING.

No joo kant heal da way da clerik duz, but its not hard to exp wit da drood or da shammy now as da main healer. Eben up to da level 60.

And yes, in da group situation, its VERY easy fer me ta replace da Clerik as da heeler, and YES its very easy for da drood ta replace da clerik as da heeler. Been dere, dun dat.

Your wrong Phidget. A group can survive with just a Shaman, but not just a Druid. A druid will go oom fast with no slower present. They are going to NEED mana regen in clarity or mana song just to keep up even with a slower. I dont think you realize just how mana inefficient our heals are, and how much mana they suck out of us. A druid can go oom just trying to heal a tank up to full after one fight if no slower is present.

So while Shaman may be able to take clerics out of the picture, dont kid yourself, Druids come nowhere close to competing with clerics unless we're talking about a full group of 60's in HS or Velks which is a joke in itself.

At most, a Druid should be able to match Shaman healing. That's what Druids should be shooting for.

At most, a Druid should be able to match Shaman healing. That's what Druids should be shooting for

I'd be thrilled to match shaman healing. Granted, in order to match Shaman healing power, I'll be needing a 75% slow...feel free to call it Aidon's Hobbit Love.

/agree Aidon.

when we can figure out how much healing a 75% slow saves a shaman we can figure out how much more healing a druid should be doing.

The big problem in priest classes that each of the other priest classes have healing spells that "scale" and "grow" as the content gets more difficult. Superior Healing or any other Fixed values healing spell will NEVER keep pace with Cleric CH or Shaman Slow. Each of those spells get better as the content or healing target get better. A complete heal on a tank from Kunark area was fantastic. A CH on a top of the line tank today is EVEN BETTER. Same with a shaman slow. Once the shaman has landed a slow on any mob you just saved 75% of the damage that mob was going to do to you. If that mob is an avg mob you landed a great spell, if that mob was an uber mob the same spell landing just got that much better.

How can a druid keep pace. We can't. Unless they want to make us the masters of reverse damage shields. Let them give us a ds that gives x% of each hit taken back to the tank. maybe somewhere in the area of 40%-60%. Is that so bad. A shaman landing a slow just mitigated even more damage than that. And a cleric landing a CH has totally resolved any and all damage taken upto 10,500hps.

That is just a single suggestion, but it shows why druid healing is so far out of line with our other priest class brothers.

Europa

"This is mainly due to CH. Giving druids a 75% CH (Heals a person to 75%, instead of 100%) or even 66% CH would make them a viable substitute but would not take away the desire to have a cleric."

Not technically feasible I don't think. Complete Heal isn't actually a 100% heal...it's a 10000 HP heal.

For a priest class I think Druids DD's are very adequate...too high imo but c'est la vie. You've got ports, and decent HP's and AC for your spell set. I think all druids need is a better heal for xp groups and a group heal for raids. There's no reason any class should dominate a role so Paladins have no reason to be too upset. There's always more groups than Paladins anyway so druids could fill that niche nicely.

Daist F'reez
60 Wizard

Like was mentioned the monk ability Mend is already a percentage based heal.

Would not be that hard to implement a 75%(whatever) heal.

Next...

/agree Europa/Nerma

The more I think about that idea the better I like it. A reverse damage shield that will not only heal the main tank a percentage (of his actual hit) but also the other melee in the fight as well.

That idea imo kills the stigma that most (clerics) would see of a direct heal that would rival a clerics. After all more than anything, perception (outside the druid community) is what most of the arguments for and against are based on whether accurate or not.

Be well and safe

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro

Wow.

Druidz kan't heal dere own groups.
Meez not knowin dat.

I guess da regular group meez doin wit meez bard (59) are gonna hab to change den. Cuz we regularly do Charsis, Da Hole, and KC basement wit da Druid az da main healer, and no Chanter fer crowd control. But meez been called da talented bard at da crowd control.

Regular group make-up: SK, Warrior, Rogue, bard, Druid, and sumtimes dat freekin Pally (and joo know who joo are slakker)will log on ta help, or we pik up a munk.

Now ta be honest. Meez IS slowin da Mobs (Not as much as da chanter or da shammy), and meez IS Twistin in mana/heath regen, and meez iz speedin da tankiez. Da warrior duz de invig dance in da downtimez cuz of da BP, and meez Regenning Health/mana hugely in da down timez. Da SK neber seemz ta need much heelin though. He tappin away. And if Pally or Munkee along, munkee iz mendin, and pally iz Helmettin eberywun constantly.

Dis group pullz pretty much non-stop in sum heavy places fer da exp.

/sarcasm on
I'm so sad dat we hab to kik owt da drood now frum de expin of owr regular groupz. Meez wuz likin her. But joo say she kant heal and meez hab to beleev joo.

/sarcasm off

The big problem in priest classes that each of the other priest classes have healing spells that "scale" and "grow" as the content gets more difficult. Superior Healing or any other Fixed values healing spell will NEVER keep pace with Cleric CH or Shaman Slow. Each of those spells get better as the content or healing target get better. A complete heal on a tank from Kunark area was fantastic. A CH on a top of the line tank today is EVEN BETTER. Same with a shaman slow. Once the shaman has landed a slow on any mob you just saved 75% of the damage that mob was going to do to you. If that mob is an avg mob you landed a great spell, if that mob was an uber mob the same spell landing just got that much better.


Boy this statement sums it up better than anything. Clerics and Shamen both have an ability that remains constant and game mudflates. Druids fixed heals do not inflate like slow or CH as the game does. Hence the continual falling behind.

The reverse damage shield would run into the same problem unless it was percentage based. The fact is the new solution simply must scale or it will become obsolete with further expansions.

Oh.

Hab to add sumthing.

Guess wut? If Meez cant land da slow on sumptin, Meez goin OOM too. If dere are too many mobs fer da slow, da confusion iz dere, da Channy gettin pounded. NO SLOWS. Kant take da time ta slow sumptin and risk channy death.

Da point jer missin iz dat unless da group is strong on da mana regen/slow of COURSE a back up heeler is goin OOM. I drain meez entire mana bar into a big tank and still not make da big impakt da way I should. Dats da point.

If meez am in da group wit da clerik, I play buffer/slower, and mebbe sum meelee. If meez ALONE az a heeler, I slow and Heal (Cuz slowin saves da heelin), and meez buff if meez can. If Meez de only heeler and hab no mana regen....WE ARE LOOKING FOR MANA REGEN FER DA NEXT GROUP MEMBER, or else da pulls hab to stay LIGHT.

De impression da I am getting iz joo want to be able ta be THE ONLY HEALER in da group, and if no mana regen iz available, and no slowin iz available, joo STILL want ta do da same tingz dat a clerik equipped group could do.

And dats NOT gonna happen.

And az much az you like to tink da shammy'z can do wut a clerik equipped group kan do, you are wrong dere too. I KANT keep up on da heelin on a WARRIOR HPs in a group where da aktion iz fast and furious and non-stop, if a channy iz dere and iz GUUD, den ya, meez can. If dere is a sekond healer in da group meez can (like a drood), but NOT alone. Mebbe wit Torpor I could, but dats far away, and eben if meez hittin 60, unlezz da spell is changed in drops, meez hab a monkeyz chance of gettin it.

Phidget, nobody said the Druid was worthless. We simply said a Druid cant play main healer in alot of places w/o a slower. Obviously you and the bard can slow.

Take you and the bard out, and replace them with maybe 2 tanks, and see how much downtime you have with the Druid. Also, the puller makes a big difference as well. If he can constantly get singles, then it shouldnt be too hard. However, if your getting multiples, a Druid wont be able to keep up without slow unless your dps is so high that your barely taking any damage in the first place.

Meez can do dat, but joo fergettin sumptin.

Eben a clerik wit no mana regen and no slower would hab problemz keepin up in a tank heavy group.

If meez iz da ONLY slower/Heeler, I Kant keep up. If Dere iz anudder Bakup heeler iz eazy.

See jer saying dat jer groups kant stay alive, den jer saying dey kan, but only if circumstances are right.

Well no kiddin. Da point iz dat NO BACKUP HEELER iz gonna be able ta substitute fer a clerik in a bad situation, or non-optimal group. I tink dats da point.

if joo only hab da shammy or druid az da heeler, den joo face 2 pieces of reality - 1: Joo kant go deep in da dungeon where joo are, Cuz da heeler kant keep up 2: if joo do decide ta do some funky schtuff, den de udder memberz of da party hab to make up fer da healin shortfall.

Dats da point.

Actually Phidget, you can keep up, i know 60 Shamans that can keep groups up better than clerics or druids ever could by themself. I understand your trying to make your class look even keel with Druids and Clerics, but they just arent. Theres a reason why most classes consider you Gods, and its not just Druids :P

You support a group much better than any of us do through the use of Slow, Torpor, Canni, Regens, and Haste. You can argue with all the 'little things' we do we can contribute just as much, but i dont think an argument speaking about our evacs, root, snare compares, sorry. Furthermore, a Cleric has CH which coupled with a tank that has 5k'sh hp's makes for a very effective, no downtime heal that can in ways make up for non-slow. What do Druids have? We have a damage shield, and the least mana efficient heals by far out of all 3 priest classes, so you tell me if that mitigates damage like Slow, or is so mana efficient in the heal like CH. It isnt.

I like reading Troll talk, its still entertaining to me to read it even though i see it alot, heh. But stop trying to make it seem like we're equal in ability to heal, when you know it just isnt true.

Or a percentage Rune shield with a DS component (10 or 15 hps) that stacks with a Mage DS.

Actually Broomhilda, why not LISTEN to da shammy when meez tellin joo.. I KANT KEEP UP. Wit torpor in a grind area, its not a problem ta keep up. Troo. But da SAME problemz arise and joo get deze da same way meez do (or shamanz do).

"I understand your trying to make your class look even keel with Druids and Clerics, but they just arent. Theres a reason why most classes consider you Gods, and its not just Druids :P
"
Of course dey arent even. Sheesh. If dat were da case dere would be ONE CLASS, and it wood do eberyting. If joo want to talk abowt BALANCE, den joo ned ta factor in ALL de abilitiez of da class, and not one aspekt. Funny abowt da last "gods" part. And joo say dis izn't class envy....Puhleeese.

I neber sed we were equal. But den why do tingz hab to be equal? Meez iz arguing da fakt dat alot of da droods come here and say tings like "Now our groups can live!", when dat is so patently false it makes me wanna blow sum potionz up. Its de old "Woe iz me syndrome".

Droodz are better at XX den shamans are, do da shammyz get to rise to a par wit joo on udder lebels when jer Healz are upgraded.

"You support a group much better than any of us do through the use of Slow, Torpor, Canni, Regens, and Haste"
Funny. meez tinkin joo support da groups good wit snare, evak, Sow, Damage Shields, Buffs, Regen (Group version no less), and da healin. Duz da abilitiez of da Shammy compliment eech udder so dat heelin iz less of da chore? Joo know it. But den when joo factor in anudder slower, da Druidz aren't strugglin either.

"but i dont think an argument speaking about our evacs, root, snare compares, sorry"
next time meez gettin smacked by da train dat comez from da runner or meez callin evak and dere no one arownd ta do it, meez will remember joo sed dey dont compare. Uh huh. "Woe is me....Woe is me..."

<quote>"Furthermore, a Cleric has CH which coupled with a tank that has 5k'sh hp's.... "</quote>
So wuts jer point? Joo and me in da SAME boat on dat one. meez not gonna keep up on da 5khp tank either.

Its not abowt da type of tank joo fightin wit, its da amount of da damage dey takin. If meez had godly Heeler skillz I could keep an enchanter alive against da AoW if meez had to. If jer in a situation where joo habbin ta heal 5k + in HPs on da tank, I got NEWZ FER JOO! Jer in da wrong place ta be expin, and so would I, cuz it means MASSIVE downtime fer shamy and druid alike. Try sumptin a little eazier. Like a place where, I dunno, joo CAN keep up becuz joo arent a main healer?

"woe iz meee...woe iz meee...."

Don't feed the troll!

Well Phidget,

i'll just say i tried. I shoulda known you wouldnt be reasonable about this because you know an evac only happens about once a week, that you have group regens too lol, that snares arent even THAT important since there are plenty of alternatives, and that slow crowd control is better than root. The funny thing is you just named all the other major grouping ablities druids bring, what else is there? Not much. Oh, almost forgot about your damage shield example against the AoW or Vindi, ROFL. Like that happens regularly, or mitigates any type of damage to allow us to heal adequately on a daily basis. Gotta love the one time situation a week examples that exxagerate the use of some of our abilities.

Anyways, good luck!

Yup, thats what i get for feeding the troll :(

Yep.

Its da shame dat eben in anudder thread jer fellow droods are sayin da same tingz I am.

Droodz can heel in exp grind situations. Not az well az a clerik, but dey can do it. And de udder party memberz present hab alot to do with wut exp grindin areaz joo kan do.

Also a shame dat joo dont see da value of da evaks when sum of jer fellow druidz do. If it saves me and 5 udder partee memberz a 6 hour CR, its wurth its weight in gold. I dont care how often joo cast it. Its sorta like REZ on a clerik, da OPTIMUM a clerik can do iz NEVER cast rez. Cuz dey doin dere job so well. In EXP grinding camps dere have been NIGHTS/DAYS/MULTIPLE DAYS where da clerik neber casts Rez once. And joo don't undervalue dat spell becuz da group iz doin so well.

Broomhilda's definition of a troll: "If you don't agree with me, you are a troll"

Oh, and I tink joo should read more. Cuz I neber mentioned Damage shield against Vindi/AoW. I SED if I were a heelin GOD I could keep an enchanter az da main tank against da AoW alive.

Nice try though

Come now, 6 hour cr's? Druids can heal anywhere close to as well as a shaman? Hey, anyone have the troll spray?

I do not know if I want to be a better healer but I do know I want to be the best at something not just being the best at being second or third at something.

Give us something to define our skills that no one else has or can do!!!!

Ooops, sorry bout that. To be honest, i read the first portion of it and realized it was pointless, then skimmed the very end and saw AoW assuming you made that same breakdown everyone does against Vindi of how powerful our DS's are. My bad, that was my fault.

This is my last comment to you btw, but i wouldnt have minded having a discussion if you could at least be reasonable. Pointing out we have group regens(when you do too), that our evacs are as needed as you imply, and your blanket statements about all the 'other stuff' we can do when you wont even list them makes it pointless. Furthermore, you dont seem to believe classes should be balanced in relation to each other which makes it pointless.

I dont think i'm the only one who thinks Shamans are much better off than Druids, so lets just agree to disagree.

"Furthermore, a Cleric has CH which coupled with a tank that has 5k'sh hp's.... "
So wuts jer point? Joo and me in da SAME boat on dat one. meez not gonna keep up on da 5khp tank either.


1 slow.
2 topors.

Total cost: 600 mana.

HPs healed: 2400. But, with a 75% slow.

Max ratio: 16.

Add more topor's per slow, and the ratio gets higher.

Complete heal:
400 mana
5 k tank.
Max ratio: 12.

Topor + Slow can beat CHeal, really. =)

Now, note that the ratio for cheal is a bit high, and the ratio for slow+topor is also high (pre-slowed damage is alot).

But, shamans can keep up with clerics complete healing 5 k tanks, mana-wise. Especially when you realize that shaman mana regen owns cleric mana regen. . .

Yes, druids can heal in groups where the group members can heal themselves. And, this is getting more and more common.

CH is level 39.

Torpor is 60, and the scroll is rare/expensive.

Just a couple observations for your "equation".

RotG is a rare spell as well, and those BP's aren't so easy to get for many druids, yet the assumption is always made that druids have them.

And anudder one dat misses da point.

Sheesh. Joo do reely only reed wut joo tink joo reddin huh?

I NEBER sed druidz can heel az guud az da shaman. I dunno where joo gettin dat.

Wut I am sayin, and pay attention here, iz dat fer da exp purposes Druidz can heal fine, dependin on da make up of da group. Any situation where da drood iz hard pressed ta heel would probably hard press a shammy az well. Joo folks make it sownd like jer completely useless and still usin minor heel at da end game.

Cuz letz face it. Itz NOT about healin da big tank, its chain heelin da chanter when dey get aggro. Doze little, fast heelz kill da mana pool FAST. And da main tank when dey low gets LoHed, or pops a Discipline, and boom, dead mobs. Live tank. And da downtime iz alot.

De whole ting meez getting here iz "We want to be able to replace a cleric for healing"

And meez tellin joo, it AINT gonna happen. jer a second class healer and dere are some places where a second class heeler aint gonna cut it for exping.

And yes Broom, its useless ta talk wit joo too.

I dont compare shammy to drood, my whole poitn wuz abowt grindin in groups. Den everyone started comparison eberywhere, and "but we'd need a slower", blah blah blah.

And jer entirely missing da whole ting. Droods kant decide WHERE dey wanna be.

"We want to be NEEDED on Raids"
"We want to be NEEDED on Raids, and viable in EXP groups"

Meez point, but jer not seein it iz dat JOO ARE viable in exp groups, and udder druidz are sayin dey doin some nice exp places JUST FINE.

Raid abilitiez, yep, meez hab no problem wit upgradez dere, but readin bak joo will also see dat meez saod Rangers, Pallys, SK, etc. also need da upgradez dere. And wut abowt da poor BL's? What do dey bring to da table dat a raid NEEDS?

Woe is me....Woe is me....

Actually, what the druids are saying is that in some exp spots they can cover for clerics.

IF there is a slower. This is often a shaman. The shaman alone (without the druid) could ALSO cover for the cleric.

Also the zones where this is even possible the expansion in power of other classes has resulted in tanks needing little healing.

A pally can also fill in for a cleric in these spots (also with a slower).

2 druids would still not be as effective as one shaman if there is no other slower present.

I play a Warrior and a Cleric normally, but also have played / observed others as they were trying out some ideas.

And while I sort of agree that Druids should be given more to do once the fight starts on a raid, I also think you should be careful for what to ask for.

An AoE heal that heals 500 hitpoints and has 20 second recast, would mean you could heal a lot of AE damage (not all mind you) with a coupld of Druids right there (4 Druids could have it cast every 5 seconds .. nice), while the 20 second recast would prevent it from being all too powerful and reduce amount of spam. Even if it's a low mana spell.
And I don't think it would unbalance high end MOBs since AoE range would play a part and the fact that keeping the Main tank alive is 90% of a raid and that part would not be touched in the slightest.

As for Direct Heals, I think the Druid is actually well placed, you have a spell that is as fast as Remedy which is the spell I mostly use to save the Enchanter with when I play a Cleric.

I think that a Heal Over Time spell would be fitting though, say .. 1200 hitpoint for 400 mana, 300 hitpoint healed when it lands and 300 for the next 3 ticks. Wouldn't be unbalancing towards the Clerics really, if it's a level 55ish spell. except that they will want it too, which isn't really a problem. The trick here, is that you CAN keep up with healing a Warrior / Enchanter on your own. Not as well as a Cleric, no, but well enough to get by at a slightly slower rate.

However - What I think the poor Shaman, that you are all badgering here, is trying to say is that if you do not have a desired_class_X, you have to change tactics.

So, the Druid cannot heal the tanks .. well, why is the tank getting beaten up then ? Kite it - Yes, group kiting is difficult to time, but since no Damage taken you get very little downtime and it's hugely enjoyable. True, it' hard to do in most dungeons, though it IS possible some places.

Or how about a Charmed animal ?
(realy have no idea how well Charm spells work for Druids)

Anyways, the point here is to think out of the box !

Anyone know that 1 Magician, 1 Monk, 1 Warrior, 1 Ranger and 2 Rogues is a killer group ?
Mage summons Bandages and all 6 bandages the Warrior ... You'd be surprised how fast he goes up in hitpoints. And if the Warrior is near death, Ranger can Root the MOB and monk can tank for tha last bit.

Or how about 1 Bard and 6 Necro's Fear Kiting ?
Sure, they cannot stack their DOTs, who cares, they can lifetap the sucker since they are getting mana in heaps with self mana regen and bard mana regen !




Think out of the box !

I do not know if I want to be a better healer but I do know I want to be the best at something not just being the best at being second or third at something.

This is why you choose to be a druid. - This is where the crux is at :
Druids are a Jack of all trades, and Master of none.

Druids are a Jack of all trades, and Master of none.

Hmmm, we can't mesmerize, haste, slow, duel wield, melee well, or tank. I think the jack of all trades is the bard. We are more like the eight of some trades. And with each expansion other classes that never had those trades are getting them. Where is the advantage of being versatile if other classes can be versatile and specialists?

Then, perhaps, there is your answer.

To become Jack of all Trades for real.

I came here to laugh at silly druids. Now, I... feel for you guys? *strangles self*

My myopic view is that perhaps druids be given a spell that heals the same as CH, for 50% more mana, with a 50% longer cast time. It's not CH, but it would do in a pinch.

To become Jack of all Trades for real.

Look at the outcry now...

Imagine what would happen if suddenly we had a 50% slow, the equivilant of bard mez, alacrity, a shaman pet, could summon Mod Rod 1, and could do a 90% rez?

As much as I would love it...I know better than to ask for that.

Anything less than those in their respective lines and we aren't jacks we're dueces

Woe iz me..Woe iz me....Poor druidz.

Sheesh. Quit whining and play anudder class den if its DAT BAD.

Da way haff of joo are talkin itz like joo hit 50 and den jer FORCED to use all lvl 1 spellz in every encounter.

Bards. Jack of all trades! (for 9 seconds). meez swearin dat 90% of da reason dat jer not goin ta raidz is jer personality. WHINE WHINE WHINE.

We hab druidz in da raids, and in da EXP groups and we lubbin dem for it. Weez NEBER turn down sumwun dat wants ta go. Ourz are cheery and helpful, and make it SO MUCH easier to get tings goin. Dey spot heal where day can. Dey DS tanks, Skin, resist buff, Chloro....and I neber hearin dem complain abowt "We want to do XX better". Dey do dere jobs and we are GLAD to hab dem along.

If meez had to deal wit druidz dat did dere jobs, but complained da whole time dey wuz doin it, I'd neber invite dem to anudder raid again.

If meez had to deal wit druidz dat did dere jobs, but complained da whole time dey wuz doin it, I'd neber invite dem to anudder raid again.

If I had to listen to a druid bashing troll like you the whole time, I don't think you would have to worry about inviting me a second time.

for the love of god, if you're going to insult us, at least have the commond courtesy to do it in freaking english.

dees iz no da good wayz to talks to da droodz if youz wan dems tos listen tos yas.

ROFL.

Jooze two funnee.

Meez not sayin anyting dat udder druidz alreddy tellin joo. meez not insultin joo, meez TELLING joo ta start reedin wut udder folks are sayin.

Can druidz use da raid upgrade in some way? Joo bet.
Do dey need a heelin upgrade fer expin? Nope. Becuz like meez sayin and if joo woudl, I dunno..READ.. udder people dey sayin da same ting.

"I can exp in HS, Seb, Chardok, Velks, etc. as the only healer fine"

Hmmm, how to say this so a troll can understand?

If meez iz de mane heeler for a groop, meez iz powerleeveelin dem. Meez kan mak moor exp soloin dan groopin in a zon dat eezy.

Talyena : That's the life of a healer (read Cleric), we get to level together with the others.

How can meez put dis in termz joo understand?

"If meez iz de mane heeler for a groop, meez iz powerleeveelin dem"
Den why are udder druidz saying DIFFERENTLY? And de arguments of "better equip", easier placez dey all fall flat. If JOO (YES YOU), can not be da main heeler in da exp group, and udder druidz say dey can, its time FOR YOU ta re-learn how ta play da druid, if joo wanna be EXPin az da main healer.

"Meez kan mak moor exp soloin dan groopin in a zon dat eezy"
Funnee how alot of classes dont hab dis option right?

Joo wanna heal as well as da cleriks in grinding groups (which joo can do, jer just playin ignorant), but joo want ta be able ta solo eberywhere too and be gainful at dat too.

WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE.

No wunder when da puppies get hit all you hear is da WHINE.

Joo wanna heal as well as da cleriks in grinding groups (which joo can do, jer just playin ignorant), but joo want ta be able ta solo eberywhere too and be gainful at dat too.

Actually, I would be happy to be able to heal as well as a shaman. Of course, being able to solo as well as a shaman is a bit too much to ask.

Okie joo can hab it.


As long az shammys get da ability ta solo 4 exp givin mobs at a time, and hit 15 different zones in a half an hour ta find da most uncamped areas.

Uh huh.

Shammy soloin is 1 at a time. Adds are PAINFUL. And meez hatin ta tell joo dat any mob da shammy can take down (non-summoning), a druid can root/rot/free mana DoT.

Wont be as fast, but joo can. But den of course shammys aren't soloing 4 at a time.

Granted, shaman can take down summoning mobs solo...go pet aggro and root.

Meez not sayin anyting dat udder druidz alreddy tellin joo.

Yes and generally when other druids say these things, I call them much more vile names. They should at least know better.

Wow..Joo knowin alot abowt da shammy pets.

One ting abowt dem. And try ta keep up.

Pets aren't tanks.

At least not fer da shammy, dey are like one long lastin DoT, but if Dog-dog gets aggro, he lasts like 20 secondz and den no more dog-dog.

Shammy pets aren't meant ta tank moBs fer da shammy, dey are supposed ta nip on da heels of da MoBs while da shammy tankin.

And frum jer last message:

"Yes and generally when other druids say these things, I call them much more vile names. They should at least know better"

Maybe joo should be knowin better? If dey can be da main healer in groups fer expin in alot of places mebbe its how JOO play and not how dey playin?

Druid_001 says "We Can't heal in exp groups!"
Druid_002 says "Our groups always die! We need better healing!"
Druid_003 says "Well I can exp as main healer in Seb, HS, KC, Chardok, ME, FG just fine"
Druid_001 says "Not without UBER gear and party members"
Druid_004 sasy "Well maybe not Emperor, or Juggs, but most camps sure. And my equipment isn't very uber"
Druid_001 says "Thats not my experience!"
Druid_002 says "I don't like other druids that actually are doing what 'we' say we can't. It bothers me"

Hmmm, I guess being a troll you can just play stupid and chose to believe who you want to believe. I have tried to say this, but you seem to either ignore it or dismiss it which brings me to believe you are a troll in more ways than one. Yes, druids can heal a group and get experience. But, that druid could get more experience soloing. And I don't mean quad-kiting. I can get more experience root-rotting than I can being the primary healer for a group. And I can't slow the mob, haste myself, and melee the mob while my pet does real damage either. And even if I could, I wouldn't have the ability to cani up after the fight and keep going. So, yes, it can be done, but much like a shaman soloing dragons for experience, it just isn't worth it.

So why bother den?

Joo want to be da main healer in da EXP group but joo dont want to cuz its too slow?

WTF are joo complainin abowt den? GO solo sumptin and stop takin up bandwidth.

How many udder classes can say "Well we'd like to group, but we get more exp soloing".

And add onto dat "Well we'd like to group, but we get more exp soloing, so we want our grouping abilities raised so we can get just as much EXP grouping as if we were soloing"

ARROGANT.

You know I'm all for roleplay and I encourage it all the time but in this case I'm getting a headache trying to read ogre talk.

It may be fine for a line here or there but in long discussions I've just stopped reading.

Please do not take offense as I applaude your sense of Roleplay.

Just expressing an opinion :)

You want to talk about arrogant? How about a class that can solo with the best of them, can heal a group almost as well as a cleric (best slow and second most efficient heal), and has probably the second or third most important raiding skill along with many other very important raiding skills, going to another classes messageboard and telling them that they are overpowered? How is that for arrogant? Why don't you just go back to your board and discuss how much better druids are than shaman and quit trolling here?

Druid_003 says "Well I can exp as main healer in Seb, HS, KC, Chardok, ME, FG just fine"

See here...the problem with that statement is this:

There is no need for a healer at all in these places. Melee can solo there..just fine.

So yes...I have little doubt that I can be the main healer for a group in any of those places (I've been the main healer in a group for all of those places...). That doesn't change the fact that places that actually require healing...a druid can't do it.

Shaman trolls are very funny. I'd expect math to be beyond them, maybe thats why they think Quad Kiting is good.

Druid Quad 4 Gorganas in ME. Looks impressive. Sits on his butt for 10 minutes. Total time involved in a quad.
15 minutes or so.

Shaman takes out 1 Gorgana in 2 Minutes. (my 2nd Bane usually doesnt have time to wear off). Doesnt seem impressive. Very little downtime. In that 15 minute span kills 6 or 7.

Druid is the hare.
Shaman the tortoise.
We all know the old fable and who wins the race. Its true in EQ.

Wunder if joo factor in udder tings?

Like bein able to hit 15 zones in da time it takes da shammy time ta hit 3. Searchin out da best spots. Hmm....

See fer MOST peeple in da game, dey hit one spot and hope fer da best. Mebbe run to anudder and again hope fer da best. Meez hab seen tanks sittin at da zone fer hours OOCing fer groups. Cuz dere choices are to stay dere and hope fer da best, or run fer an hour and wind up doin da same ting.

Druidz don't do dat. Joo put dat LFG tag up, den hit raptors, CS, Burning woods, ME, FG, SD and just play arownd. Knowin dat if joo want to joo can solo for sum blues while joo waitin fer da group. Also knowin dat it will take joo < 10 mins ta get dere.

If druidz hab any bonus its dat dey dont hab much downtime. At least in comparison to udder playerz in da game.

Why you belive some folks and not others Mr. Troll?
hehe.

If you cant perform the shammy solo feats I have seen mentioned (on shammy boards for instance) why dont you re-learn shammy?
If you can then you ought to perform them rather than coming down here to help us see the light.

You have some points, though tough to decipher, but you seem to lack a bit of background on the discussion. Much of what you talk about has been discussed in naseous detail and your summary does not quite sum it up.

hehe. <- see I am roleplaying a silly druid.

"If you cant perform the shammy solo feats I have seen mentioned (on shammy boards for instance) why dont you re-learn shammy?"


Meez do. Its also abowt da playstyle. Technically meez not interested in soloin. Except when meez cant get da group. Eben when meez soloin meez still just as likely ta be doin potionz den runnin from zone ta zone trying ta find sumptin dats not camped.

If meez go to da shammy board and say "Shamans can't XXXX", and sumwun or several sumwuns say "Been dere, dun dat", its time ta step back and say "OK, how did joo do dat?", radder den step back and say "Well I believe we can't".

Meez not sayin druidz dont need da tweekin, but den pretty much all da classes need sum tweekin. In some form or anudder. But dey dont need da exp group heal tweekin.

Da raid level yup, but not in da grindin. Grindin is alreddy becomin so easy dat meeleez can solo in alot of areaz dat woulda taken a group before. Sumptin fer raidz iz guud. Sumptin fer grindin iz just overkill.