View Full Forums : Planes of Power and the new way to travel...


SilleyEskimo
07-08-2002, 04:03 AM
Druid's Grove, start your engines!

Computer Games magazine had an article about EQ2 and PoP, I thought this little blurb was kind of interesting:

"Probably the single reason why thousands of folks with lower level characters will buy this expansion anyay (it's mainly for levels 45+) is because it removes what players have been complaining about since just about Day One of the franchise: the "you can't get there from here" factor. This product will allow you to teleport from any city to any other city in the game at any time, finally enabling you to meet up with your friends without spending two hours travelling across a dangerous world, or bothering some poor druid to taxi you about. An enormous step forward for Norrath transportation, this feature alone will be worth the price of the ticket for any avid Everquest player."

C'mon all, let's hear it. Get it all out of your system.

Fairweather Pure

PS. C/P'ed from guild msg board. Credit to Meadowsong.

Nuvian Caelestis
07-08-2002, 04:05 AM
From the PoP movies I watched it seems they are enabling the locked firepots in every city and linking them to the Plane of Knowledge. Will be very similar to TD firepots but will go in both directions.

gilth
07-08-2002, 04:25 AM
Mixed feelings...

I like the idea of making money on ports (easiest way for a 40ish druid to make a couple hundred plat easy).

I like the idea of not having to spend an hour being a taxi for a guild event.

We still have evacs, so we are needed in tough dungeons and quick escape situations. But our class would lose some of it's value (we sometimes get in a group because we can collect eveyone, if we are not needed to collect, we won't get in the group).

Heck go for it. It would be better for the game... Period.

gloryseq
07-08-2002, 04:41 AM
I love the idea. When the fire pots first came out, I bound all my characters there I could. Even my druid lol. Was so wonderful to have that kind of access, especially for tradeskills. Most of us druids solo to 50 anyway and after that, not much changes as to why we are or aren't desired in dungeon groups. Nothing to do with ports other than evacs.

Pixal
07-08-2002, 04:56 AM
About friggin time.

EQ is just to big now not to have something like this. I assume this is for 46+ in level, which gives it some balance. Anything that let's me enjoy the game more without being ask for rides every 5 minutes I like.

L1ndara
07-08-2002, 05:05 AM
If SH is included this is good. Having to wait on that effing nexus portup is bloody stupid. It'll also make those faithstones shamans and clerics got even better. By the time we've gotten halfway from the ring to Rivervale the cleric would already be off in running from SH though, lol.

Really druids won't have any more ports than clerics. As it is wizards are doing all the TLing, it's very rare I port anyone aside from the occasional succor.

Ligge
07-08-2002, 05:07 AM
/cheer

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 05:30 AM
Druids are fine, we dont need ports, snares, sows, heals, etc. to contribute to groups that already have those abilities. Its all about how well you play your class even if your not needed for any of your abilities. I mean i get groups all the time with the same people i group with everyday just because i know them :/

LOL, i'm really wondering now what we contribute to groups after porting is trivialized. Lets check out our current nerf chart for our 'important' abilities.....


Ports- Wizard Translocate, Nexus, PoP Firepots

Snares- SK, Necro, Rangers, item effects, mobs immune or not needed

Sows- Shamans, Shaman potions, J-Boots/T-Boots, Run3, Horses.

Healing- Cleric>Shaman>Paladin:D ruid


As far as i know those are the major roles we're wanted for in groups, feel free to correct me on what i missed or shouldnt have included. I see no reason why a group really 'needs' a druid for anything anymore. All of our abilities have been given to other classes in one form or another. Notice, Verant isnt giving anybody else a slowing ability, crowd control ability, etc., just passing out Druid-defining abilities like their candy.


Verant Sucks!!!

Cuchulaine Kynthelig
07-08-2002, 05:32 AM
When I played a druid, I HATED always being bugged for ports.

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 05:35 AM
Heh, i think the key term there is "played"

SilleyEskimo
07-08-2002, 05:49 AM
Why did I know Broom would be one of the most vocal opponents to this, lol.

Fight the power. Planes of Power that is ;)

Fairweather Pure

Sorrun
07-08-2002, 05:50 AM
This is a great thing.. the only druids who wont like this are either still porting from ring to ring and charging 10-20pp a seat or have never played anything other then a druid...

This may be the single biggest (and best) enhancement we have seen since Kunark.

GreystoneThorngage
07-08-2002, 06:01 AM
I agree with Broon. Druids at first where played by everyone adn as luclin came out and ports less needed druid numbers dropped. Now i have very few spells that no other class does. I often feel like druids are the red headed stepchild of VI. Ok before i thought, ok we pay in armor, weapons, and what not because we can port, kite and things like that. Well with PoP ports is just a convience, and multiple classes can kite. What is left that makes us special. Group wolf Form :)

Stormhaven
07-08-2002, 06:05 AM
Good, hate doing ports. That's what a TL is for. :/

Cobbyl
07-08-2002, 06:08 AM
No, I still hate being bugged for ports. :P

LOL, i'm really wondering now what we contribute to groups after porting is trivialized.
Say what? Since when has porting been a key grouping ability? We can get groups where they want to go/need to be, but how is that benefiting the overall experience gain? All it does is expediate getting there. If any of our ports were why we're wanted, it would be Succor, because a quick escape in many dungeons is key. I just don't see where you're coming from there.

Now that I look back, I don't see where you're coming from on a few of the other things you listed. Funny, hehe. I was in Dawnshroud Peaks on my twink rogue, Dobbyl (I'm so creative), and a group was shouting for more members. The shout was something like this,"Group including an enchanter (think of all the haste/clarity you could have), a cleric (think of all the heals you could have), and a druid (think of all the SOWs you could have) looking for more!" And I remember thinking,"Ha, is that all they think a druid is good for?" Maybe it's me, but I haven't grouped outdoors in ages. At 50+, the only outdoor experience zone I can think of is The Grey, and that's mainly soloing or duoing. As I recall, the only groups that really demand SoW at all times are the low level High Hold groups or the 40ish Dreadlands groups. But even then, I think most people are smart enough to realize,"Wait a second! We're at a camp! Unless something goes really wrong, we're not going to be moving for awhile!" As I see it, SoW has never been a key grouping utility for druids.

Now, snaring...snare is just something I do, never something that was key. Most group setups go something like: tank, cleric, crowd control, damage, damage, evac. Even if I'm in a group, generally a ranger/shadowknight will be snaring. As far as I can remember, snaring has never been critical at all, though helpful.

You say that VI is passing out our abilities like candy (you also forgot nukes :) ) but...

Ports- Wizards have always had ports, Nexus allows people to port to 4 locations, 2 of which are too far away from anything to be viable (NK and Tox), 1 of which lands you in a dangerous area (GD), and unless you're going to KC, DL is pretty useless too.

Snares- SK, Necro, Rangers have always had snares. You point out item effects, but there is no clickable snare item with unlimited charges. Group says,"Hey, who's going to be snaring?" Warrior says,"I have 4 charges left in my Swollen Fungusbeast Gland."

Sows- Shamans have always had the ability to SoW, and they get it before druids. I think the shamans could argue that VI is passing out their ability. :p

Healing- Up until the 40s, a druid is fine as a healer, since typically we're only 5 levels behind in receiving our new spells. Once CH is thrown into the mix, things are a bit different. Even so, I find for most small groups (FG, Grey, Chardok, Sebilis before the wizards started casting Ice Comet) I can do perfectly well as a main healer.

+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

I agree with some of what you're saying, but the things you pointed out have been around forever. I'm not saying,"That's just the way it is, deal with it," because the fact that it's been like that forever doesn't necessarily make it right, but it isn't as if these changes are something "new" that VI just dumped in our laps.

Ligge
07-08-2002, 06:15 AM
Porting is not a reason/ability why we get groups... if it is it only is in places like HS or Deep and well, PoP doesnt change that one bit.

I know Broom and I on the same server but I have 0 problem getting pick up groups on Fennin and by that I mean a group that has 0 people I know in it. To this day I still find myself playing cleric, enchanter, and puller in many groups because they all suck so bad and because druids rock so much in exps groups.

City to city port is a good thing as far as I am concerned. Less downtime and less requests for ports and less people thinking that since we have ports we are the taxis of Norrath and obligated to do so. Even as recent as this morning I got multiple tells for ports from all over. I send them all to /join port. One even had the huevos to tell me he wasnt planning on paying, thats why he was sending tells and not asking in channel lol

Batou062671
07-08-2002, 06:16 AM
I think the best part about this is that people will stop making Druid port bots. This will reduce the number of clueless souls giving Druids a bad name. This is a good thing in my opinion.

Tienen Crazywolf
07-08-2002, 06:16 AM
Well , saves me the 50 bucks I was going to spend getting my druid transferred to another account to port my shaman around hehe.

Seriena
07-08-2002, 06:27 AM
Great! I hate porting others unless it's my group to someplace we're going to hunt. What I do want though is a freaking gate to Nexus! If they can give all non-porting classes the ability to travel around from city to city they can sure as heck give us a damn nexus gate spell. From the old world to nexus, from wherever on the moon to nexus...I don't care. Just give us group ports to and around the moon.

/rant off Sorry, it's monday and I had flashbacks of sitting at the nexus spire again ;p

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-08-2002, 06:27 AM
This is a great thing.. the only druids who wont like this are either still porting from ring to ring and charging 10-20pp a seat or have never played anything other then a druid...

This may be the single biggest (and best) enhancement we have seen since Kunark.

/scoff

No reduction in what druids bring to the table is a good thing.

Now we won't even have the token respect given to us because other classes never know when they might need a port.

That being said: I'll wait until PoP comes out before I go on one of my official rants.

Batou062671
07-08-2002, 06:32 AM
That being said: I'll wait until PoP comes out before I go on one of my official rants.
Oh come on... You know you want to. If you hold it in that long it will just fester and kill you before PoP comes out. ;)

Sorrun
07-08-2002, 06:44 AM
Now we won't even have the token respect given to us because other classes never know when they might need a port.

Speak for yourself... there are plenty of druids around here that are well respected for many reasons that have little or nothing to do with ports. Not to mention, this really only effects druids and wizards ability to collect money for ports... there is little effect on our ability to evac (when it is even used)... big difference so I suggest you (and other nay sayers in this thread) think about that before ranting too much...

Leader of the Bitter Druid

hehe.. nice title.. I agree 100%, fits you like a glove...

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 06:44 AM
"the only druids who wont like this are either still porting from ring to ring and charging 10-20pp a seat or have never played anything other then a druid..."


Well, how about all them times i get a group together and cant ever find an Enchanter/Bard so we're forced to sit at the entrance of some dungeon for 20 minutes until everybody decides to leave because its pointless w/o one? Do they know what its like not to be able to go anywhere deeper than the entrance w/o an Ench/Bard? I sure do having played a Druid :/

How about them times i cant keep up w/ Heals because there is no Shaman/Ench present slowing? Do those classes know whats its like trying to keep a non-slwoing group alive w/ Druid healing? I sure do :/

How about them times when you have a couple melee with you but the kill rate is so slow becase your melee are whining about not having haste or real crowd control. Do they know what its like for a Druid in that position? I sure do :/

How about them times when a group needs a secondary healer, and their reply to you was "sorry, we'd rather have a Shaman, they can slow". Do they know what its like being a 4th rate healer? I sure do :/

So i'm really sorry if melee have to use the nexus, or beg a Wiz/Druid for a port sometimes, it sucks, trust me i know how situations can suck. My question is why is it perfectly acceptable to give other classes Druidic-defining abilities to make the game easier for others, but not give Druids(or any other classes) abilities to make the game easier on them? Why do some Druids here accept this double standard? For as much as you guys think porting sucks, its definitely one of our defining abilities, or rather was a major perk in playing a Druid.

Not anymore :P

Lalian
07-08-2002, 06:50 AM
Yay no more people bugging me for ports I don't wanna give em ;)

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 06:53 AM
"I agree with some of what you're saying, but the things you pointed out have been around forever. I'm not saying,"That's just the way it is, deal with it," because the fact that it's been like that forever doesn't necessarily make it right, but it isn't as if these changes are something "new" that VI just dumped in our laps."


Actually Cobbyl, they are new because the list keeps growing with more Druidic abilities their giving away to a greater degree. This thread is a case in point. You didnt mention horses, AA, etc which came with Luclin. You also didnt factor in you cant play main healer w/o a slower(whereas the 2 other priest classes can). And in my eyes, you didnt factor in the most important point of all this, which is that we've slowly had our abilities watered down to other classes while receiving nothing in compensation. That to me are signs of a class being left behind :(

SilleyEskimo
07-08-2002, 06:58 AM
"That to me are signs of a class being left behind"

Or others catching up...

Fairweather Pure

LilWolf
07-08-2002, 07:00 AM
I have to say I don't like it... if it's free to use....

why?

my favorite times in EQ was walking across the country for the first times. Coming up to the wooden bridge. Taking the boat (once) was cool too. There are a ton things that EQ is lacking... one is the adventure.

I hope you have to 'activate' it. IE, you have to make it to halas for the first time by foot, before you can use the port.

But after that I think its GREAT! I can finally move my enchanter and not worry about getting killed at the pots!

Araxx
07-08-2002, 07:00 AM
Am I the only one who realised the ports will only be to the cities?
How you gonna get to Seb? Chardok? HS? Those are Evac locations (EJ and SF) and high level dungeons. What these new ports will be doing is remove the PITA of getting to a bank to, ejem, bank stuff, buy spells, do tradeskills, etc. Unless they're putting a port-down 'whateverthey'regonnacallit' in EVERY zone, we are, and so are wizards, still gonna get asked for ports.
Succor is still gonna rule. And if we're needed we're still gonna get asked to group and even go on raids. You know how the saying goes: 'The more the merrier'. :)

Ciao for now!

greggo rumbletum
07-08-2002, 07:04 AM
Main reason I dont play my warrior more is because it is a little harder for him to get to a zone where the action is - if this comes in then I will be able play him more.

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 07:06 AM
"Or others catching up..."


You cant be serious? Tell me what you offer a group that a multiple of other classes cant? From the perspective of a melee putting a group together, why would he want the Druid over a Shaman or Cleric again? He wont, because a Shaman brings slow and more mana efficient patches to the table, while a Cleric brings Ch and heal efficiency to the table.

Oh, thats right we have a DS, we're wanted ;)

Sorrun
07-08-2002, 07:06 AM
One more point..

Druids/wizards just gained as much, if not more, then any other class. We still have ports to all normal spots and just gained pots to all the towns which some people have had due to the firepots in TD. We can still bind in one spot and use ports and pots to get around without having to adjust our bind spot. That is a pretty powerful feature of druids, especially soloing druids. Port, bank, gate, resume hunting...

Lets face it, this change is great for non-porting classes and has little to no real effect on porting classes. Any attempt to argue otherwise is either being selfish (not wanting to share our travel ability) or misguided (truly believing your ability to find a group hinges on your ability to port to rings).

Araxx
07-08-2002, 07:11 AM
About what Lilwolf just posted.
ABSOLUTELY!
What hapenned to the 'We don't want our clients to miss content' part Verant likes to bitch about? Guess they're too concentrated looking to the right and don't know what their left arm is doing, huh?
:P

Ciao for now!

Menlaiene
07-08-2002, 07:14 AM
YES! I am so in favor of this.

Less port begging! I actually might be able to take off anon sometimes!

Less people making druids for the sole purpose of porting--less people hating druids because of port whores. Maybe, just maybe we have a chance of being taken seriously as more than just taxis.

Less excuses for not giving druids upgrades. You want better than rediculously sucky healing? Sorry, that's not fair, you have PORTS. You want an ability that will get you invited to raids? Sorry, that's not fair, you have PORTS. You want to be more than a last ditch slot-filler for an exp group? Sorry, that's not fair, you have PORTS. The difference between being bound in the Plane of Knowledge and having ports will be minimal. We'll still have those ever important evacs, which imo do more for us in a group situation than being able to port to WC ever could.

This is long overdue. Definately a positive change for everyone.

On a side note, I agree with the whole sow thing. For many levels I got invited to groups for one purpose: keep the puller sowed. And yes I think that helps the group out a lot. They didn't really care about anything else I could do. (Unless of course, I was temporarily playing main healer). With AA giving us a much better, non dispellable, indoor-working sow, druid sow is pointless for most hunting spots.

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 07:14 AM
"Lets face it, this change is great for non-porting classes and has little to no real effect on porting classes. Any attempt to argue otherwise is either being selfish (not wanting to share our travel ability) or misguided (truly believing your ability to find a group hinges on your ability to port to rings)"


Actually, i think your perspective just shows a double standard maybe because you have a melee twink, and hung up your druid? Just guessing on that. Your being short-sighted, your concentrating on porting, when the big picture is much more than that.

Again, why is it perfectly ok to give other classes druidic abilities, and not give Druids other class abilities? And why do some Druids find this perfectly acceptable?

Cobbyl
07-08-2002, 07:15 AM
You never addressed how porting was a staple of the druid class though, which was my main point. I don't recall ever being in a group and hearing,"Awesome, the dr00d can port me to Butcherblock when we leave! Rock on!"

Cassea
07-08-2002, 07:20 AM
There is only one reason I do not like it and that is because every complaint Druids issue about needed to be fixed is followed by....


"But you can PORT and SOW so you do not need anything else"

In other words if they wish to give one of our defining abilities away or give some of that ability away to other classes then I am all for that but in so doing they remove some of a Druids core usefulness and it should be made up in some way.

Ever since Wizards were given TL and SOL came out with no Druid ports to it my porting chores have been cut down by about two thirds. I'm all for losing this annoying chore but everything raise their hand if they picked the Druid class way back when at least partially due to ports? *raises hand*

Loralin
07-08-2002, 07:20 AM
It's about time.

You will never hear me complain about giving other classes the ability to get from city to city.

My current bind point is in PoM which means I have to ride up to the nexus just like every other class. However given the difficulty of getting to PoM I don't think I'll be changing my bind point anytime soon.

Cobbyl
07-08-2002, 07:21 AM
The fact of the matter is that most druids hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate getting port requests, plain and simple. One time, for the hell of it, I took off /role, ported to the Nexus, stood still for 5 seconds, and ran to the Bazaar. Wanna guess how many port requests I got in that time span? 1? Get real. 3? Yeah, right. 4? Keep trying. EIGHTEEN. 18 port requests in about a 20 second period. Even when anon or roleplaying, I still receive about 3 port requests every 10 minutes. You might see this as a neat "feature" of the druid class, but I see it as a pain, plain and simple.

Cobbyl
07-08-2002, 07:23 AM
I'm all for losing this annoying chore but everything raise their hand if they picked the Druid class way back when at least partially due to ports? *raises hand*
To make my travelling easier, not to taxi people around with not even a thank you.

Oldoaktree
07-08-2002, 07:29 AM
I hope and I pray that this gets through as planned.

Thank you Verant thank you thank you.

I did not sign up to play this game to be a taxi driver. To be bombarded with tells requesting ports in every zone I pass through. To be harrassed by someone who is stuck somewhere more remote because I happen to be camping something in that zone. To get nasty tells from people saying it is all my toon is good for and that I have a duty to drop my @#%$ and fetch them because I am able.

Soon as the "but druids can port!" argument goes away I will be happy.

Yeawenette
07-08-2002, 07:30 AM
I think this is a great thing.

I don't understand the knee jerk reaction to reduction in the role of druids - we'll still have to pick up people at Rivervale (for example) to take them to EJ, Skyfire, CS (unless Skyshrine is included) etc.

Personally, I'll be happy if there is reduction in "can u port me to wc plz" spam.

Besides, this affects druids positively too - ever needed to get from Bazaar to Halas or Felwithe?

ElethiomelTimberfall
07-08-2002, 07:32 AM
This is excellent, Verant should have done this long ago.
Fewer tells for ports? Yes please!

I know people that quit the game over the travel issue alone.

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 07:32 AM
"You never addressed how porting was a staple of the druid class though, which was my main point. I don't recall ever being in a group and hearing,"Awesome, the dr00d can port me to Butcherblock when we leave! Rock on!" "


Actually, its been obvious from day 1. The first thing i looked forward to as a newbie was reaching the lvl 20's to be able to port. Back in the day, the ability to get around was a great perk in choosing to play a Druid over other classes. Anybody that remembers the older days knows this to be true. It 'used' to be a rare ability that we had. What happened to Druids being the masters of travel? Its not so special anymore when everybody else can do it. Plus, groups that might be jumping around from dungeon to dungeon might be more inclined to pickup a druid.

The thing is i wouldnt have such a problem with this if Druids were compensated for Verant constantly giving away our abilities. But Druids havent been, and Verant continues to give them away.

Verant Sucks :/

Araxx
07-08-2002, 07:36 AM
The main reason I play my druid is because he's a blast and has so many skills. I NEVER knew about ports until I hit lvl 19!!! NO JOKE!
I am more worried if they start giving class defining abilities away than a utility skill which ports are. Evacs are different. But simple porting to here and there is just like having levi to get over a mountainous terrain zone. Not necessary but useful.

Yes, I am posting a lot. I don't like my title :P

Ciao for now!

Loralin
07-08-2002, 07:38 AM
I would hope my friends and guildmates respect me for a lot more than just my ability to port them around.

Aldarion Shard
07-08-2002, 07:48 AM
this is a wonderful wonderful change ...

IF verant, on the same patch that activates this feature, states:

"the ability to port will no longer be considered in balance discussions about druids and wizards, since it is now irrelevant."

Rolaque
07-08-2002, 07:59 AM
City to city port is not the same as porting from skyfire to cobalt scar. High level content is often not next to a city zone. This will be an interesting change, and should help smooth out zone useage, but it's not the end of civilization as we know it.

Rolaque
Saryrn

ElethiomelTimberfall
07-08-2002, 08:03 AM
Personally I can see no downside to this, really.

Araxx
07-08-2002, 08:05 AM
Rolaque:
When you posted 'it's not the end of civilisation as we know it' I had playing on Winamp REM and 'it's the end of the World...'
LOL!!

Just thought it was funny.
Sheesh, my title hasn't changed... This is worse than trying to farm AAXP :P

Ciao for now!

SilleyEskimo
07-08-2002, 08:12 AM
This was posted on my guild borad last week, and I was waiting for someone else to read the article an post it here. I figured I waited long enough and honestly couldn't wait to read the negetive feedback from the usual suspects that can never seem to have a good thing to say about the druid class at all.

I mean, how could anyone possibly find this as a bad thing?!? I couldn't, so I was definately anxious to read some sort of valid complaint from the same few druids I knew would be against this based on the idea alone. unfortunately, the reading is not what I expected. I see no substance to the complaining yet, just the same 'ol song and dance...

Anyway, gratz to everyone! PoP will issue forth a new era of freedom! Hopefully we will see an end to port-whores and the TRUE druids will again outshine the Dr00dz!

A guildmate summed up my feelings best in reguards to a guildmate's druidic concern about not being wanted for groups anymore.

"i dont pick a druid in my group when i want to go from FP to qeynos :) "

And if you can't figure out why you ARE wanted in groups, then there is really no sense in arguing the point at this stage of the game.

Fairweather Pure

ArienneDileas
07-08-2002, 08:15 AM
This reminds me of how so many were in an uproar about making binds available....

FyyrLuStorm
07-08-2002, 08:18 AM
Post it over at Graffe's...

See what they have to say about it.

Ligge
07-08-2002, 08:22 AM
/wave Arienne

Hey quiet one :)

Cobbyl
07-08-2002, 08:30 AM
Back in the day, the ability to get around was a great perk in choosing to play a Druid over other classes. Anybody that remembers the older days knows this to be true. It 'used' to be a rare ability that we had. What happened to Druids being the masters of travel?
I've been awhile myself, I know. Just that at this time in the game it is not, not that important ability, and more of a nuisance than anything. If VI took away all of the Circle spells, I would be happy.

Oh, and wizards are the "masters of travel." VI even coined that term for them :)

If you regard your ability to taxi around total strangers for 10pp to be a hugely important ability, you must have been outraged when Verant added soulbinders :p

Paldor
07-08-2002, 08:31 AM
I just bound my enchantress to the Firepot room. I already see how much of a boon it is to have teleports...

Druids were invisioned with having teleports in 1999, and we lost something to get that ability... Now in 2002 they are giving the rest of the classes this ability at level 1. In my heart I feel that druids should get some recompensation, but I have no idea what that should be.

I guess it was destined to happen.. Druids were the Utility class... and as the game has progressed over 3 years so that "Utility" has now been reduced to right-click items and features of new expansions so people will spend more money.

I love my druid, I always will. I do not have any problem with other classes being more or less powerful then the druid class. But it does hurt to see a lot that I used to offer, now being reduced to a right-click.

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 08:35 AM
Well, if you wanna play that card, in the same token as the 'usual suspects' who always complain, we do have the 'usual suspects' that are always "i love Verant" right? And to be quite honest, i've complemented Verant when they deserved it, however i wouldnt say the same for some of the ones that seem to be VAK all the time. *hint* *hint*

And maybe you havent been reading Silly Eskimo, but as far as i know i'm the only one who has brought forth reasonable complaints. Everyone else is just saying "i love it because i dont have to port anymore" or how meaningless ports have always been for druids of which i disagree strongly. You can choose to read only what you wanna hear. I've already asked why a group would pickup a druid, and nobody answered. I've already listed why they would a shaman and cleric over a druid, so tell me why they would a druid over shaman and cleric? I also asked why its acceptable to you to give everyone else Druidic abilities, but not give other class abilities to Druids? Nobody has answered those questions yet :/

And i'm sorry, but answers like "And if you can't figure out why you ARE wanted in groups, then there is really no sense in arguing the point at this stage of the game" seem to be excuses trying to duck a losing argument.

ElethiomelTimberfall
07-08-2002, 08:38 AM
Please. This doesn't hurt us in any way. The fact of the matter is that regardless of any little warm fuzzy some porters might get over being one of two porting classes, the travel issues in this game are a substantial detraction for other classes. This is definitely a case where the overall enjoyment of the game is going to be massively increased for the majority of players at no real cost to any specific class.

Like I said above, I've known players that loved their characters but quit playing over travel issues alone. It's a problem that is that bad, and it's about time Verant fixes it.

Saurin CoTG
07-08-2002, 08:45 AM
I understand Broom's point, however, I think making traveling easier for every class is a good thing. Having said that, I have previously commented on the fact that noone ever raises an objection when druid abilities are handed out, at the same time noone wants to step on enchanters, shaman or cleric's toes. The point Broom is making is not lost on me, I just hope that now this allows the devs a bit more freedom to develop a niche for the druid class.

Araxx
07-08-2002, 08:51 AM
This will NOT affect a Druid's desirability. Succor/Evac IN ZONE is second to none in not dying and getting back to the hunting spot in that dungeon with close to no downtime. This will only help people needing to bank, buy items, sell them, etc. not take away a Druid's/Wizzie's ability to get a group. I have yet to see how this will detract to the 'real' druid. I only see it as being negative to the dr00dz who port for plat or 'no ports for joo!'
As Sorrun has stated they just expanded our ability to get from A to B. People will have to get to a city to port up to then port down to wherever they wanna go. Druids can simply port to an adjacent zone et voilá.
Just like magic.

Ciao for now!

Oldoaktree
07-08-2002, 08:58 AM
Yah this should have absolute zero impact on our ability to get groups.

Since it is city based, we will still get some annoying port requests (EJ won't be solved for instance).

But I have to say while I have never gone /role, I am sick to death after two years and a bit of all the barrages of tells for port me here port me there.

Yes I do some, but damn when I log in I log in to play, not to port.

Aubie
07-08-2002, 09:01 AM
UNBELIEVABLE! Might acutally play druid more now.../anon off!

This is one of the few Verant improvements. No spellbook while medding, allowing binding in Timorous Deep, Soulbinders...umm, sorry can't think of anymore. Would be complete if they allowed the innate ability to self-gate to bind point for ALL classes.

Druids wanted in groups for porting ability...bwahhahahahah! Gimme a break. If that was the make or break ability...delete the class.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-08-2002, 09:01 AM
Oh come on... You know you want to. If you hold it in that long it will just fester and kill you before PoP comes out.

I will never turn to the Dark Side! I am a Jedi! Like my father!

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-08-2002, 09:04 AM
Yay no more people bugging me for ports I don't wanna give em

Not to pick on Lalian, since this sentiment has been reiterated by a number of folks.

However, I have a very simple way of dealing with ports I don't wanna give. "Sorry, I'm not porting atm." It works for me. It can work for you too!

For only 19.99 (plus S&H), I can send you my illustrated guide to Port Request Rejections. Call and order now!

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-08-2002, 09:05 AM
Or others catching up...

Still towing that VAK line I see, Fairweather.

SilleyEskimo
07-08-2002, 09:07 AM
"i'm the only one who has brought forth reasonable complaints"

*hint* *hint*--right back atcha

Anyway...

I will say that I fully expected 2 more regulars to jump right on board with the complaints and was more than a little surprised when they did not. When doing surveys and gathering public feedback, it's generally a good idea to throw out the extremes from both ends. If the least I have done is to cancel out your negetivity with my positivity, then I would have done myself proud ;) After all, I am a positive guy by nature.

Oh, I realize I give VI alot of slack, perhaps more than I should at times. However, I am still very critical of how they handle things. I have several issues with VI and druids right now, but I am a patient man, and EQ is about 1/1000th of my life during the summer. When winter rolls around, and EQ moves up to about 1/100th, I feel the few issues I have should be resolved :) Reguardless, I am not dodging the issue by not arguing my usefullness to a group as a druid. I am simply saving myself from an exercise in frustration. I'd be better off going to a republican convention and trying and convince the masses that Bush is an idiot, or maybe convincing the pope that there is no god. Just remeber that when you perpetuate the stereotype that druids are useless, you are doing a disservice to many, not just yourself.

Fairweather Pure

Fayne Dethe
07-08-2002, 09:09 AM
The best thing about this is you will be able to turn off Roleplay except you will still get the odd stupid request to powerlevel but at least it wont be port begging. The only downside I see is druids and wizards give up potential spells/spell power for ports that are going to basically be useless aside from succor and translocate (get people home after raiding). And we know from past experiences, Verant wont give anything in compensation.

I wonder if they will activate a port to Chardok since it is a city. Would make buying food/drink there alot faster, heh. I usually use CS otters cause I dont want to run over to Chardok.

Grimfeather
07-08-2002, 09:12 AM
are all of you guys on Fukin' #$@#$... drugs? maybe ya'll are lv60 epic'ed druids but us lv 30-55 people have to make money, we do porting service in bazaar... and the only reason why were even half-wanted for is damn ports, now they take that away... hmm, last thought but now i guess its over... back to shms

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-08-2002, 09:12 AM
I would hope my friends and guildmates respect me for a lot more than just my ability to port them around.

Hope and pray and do a little jig to the Respect Gods, it won't change the fact that a good portion of your guildmates, if you are in a large guild, will no longer have the time of day for you once they don't need to you. Luclin was all about removing the usefulness of Druids to the other classes. We all watched and noticed our desirability and usefulness decline with the coming of Luclin. Our "friends" didn't need us anymore. They could solo. They didn't need someone to snare for them anymore. We couldn't port them to Luclin or on Luclin.

This is just another rung on that same ladder. I hope you all enjoy quadding light blues in the Grey.

Ligge
07-08-2002, 09:15 AM
Well I have never sat at a zone in other than maybe Cazic waiting for an enchanter or a cleric so my groups could move.

Last week we formed a pickup group at OS zone in with no enchanter. It was me, wizard, ranger, rogue, cleric, paladin. I played the crowd control role while ranger pulled and we rocked D1 and D2 for about 3 hours. We lost the cleric at that point and half the group wanted to leave, one of the members knew me well enough to know that I could cleric just fine here if I wasnt playing crowd control too. We snagged a bard and I became the cleric and bard and I shared CC duty with me rooting and him mezzing but my main concentration being healing.

No shaman was ever in our group. And either no cleric or no enchanter at different times. People really need to get away from this cookie cutter idea of groups. We rarely have a "balanced" group by those standards and we rarely have issues.

I have broken to the herbalist in Chardok with monk, shaman, cleric, me, paladin. The enchanter was dead at herbalist and we were doing a CR since no necros were around and it she was more of a detriment naked than she was waiting at top for us to rez her in. If you know about breaking to this camp you know we didnt FD pull, we rolled right through nostop killing, no med breaks. Any other way and there is no chance with a group like this making it with backspawns happening.

I have taken 2 monks, bard, shaman, enchanter and me from zone in to Scalekeepers room to Kindle/Kirn and back up halfway in the Hole. No cleric, no real "tank".

I regularly do HS all 4 wings with no cleric and no enchanter. Sometimes we have an enchanter but we have done it without many times. Depending on what we have for melee we can do just about every room but the last 3 in East.

There are some reasons why a group would pick up a druid right there. A good druid can fill many roles as well as still give them an out should things go bad. I can bet my HS group, my Chardok, and my Hole groups above would have taken me over a cleric due to not only can I heal, root, snare AND do damage but I can also get them out safely in case of trouble. Whats the cleric gonna do? Rez the dead? Help break back naked and then rez the dead? I prefer just to not die.

Notice, I lost no one on any of these runs. We had no cleric to rez them back so I didnt have the option of letting someone die. lol

As far as giving others druid abilities? I dont see that happening here. The only true value of our ports as far as "druid abilities" are the exit spells. Porting from town to town makes our life easier and the lives of our companions. People in 5 locations of the world want to group with me in OS? They can all click through to one city and I can make ONE stop for all of them and port to EJ. Much better than 5 spots I think.

A smartly played druid can not be fully replaced in an exps group by any other single class. It would take 2-3 to provide our abilities, sure they may be better at them, but we can fill so many niches at once we will always be needed for exps groups by the intelligent and unafraid. :)

SilleyEskimo
07-08-2002, 09:21 AM
To quote myself here...

"I fully expected 2 more regulars to jump right on board with the complaints and was more than a little surprised when they did not."

/wave Aidon

One down, one to go :)

Fairweather Pure

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-08-2002, 09:23 AM
can bet my HS group, my Chardok, and my Hole groups above would have taken me over a cleric due to not only can I heal, root, snare AND do damage but I can also get them out safely in case of trouble.

Unfortunately you still will have to pull teeth to find a spot in a Ssra (discounting the mines), Deep, or Cazic group..to name three zones.

D1 and D2 are no longer standards of abilities. I could hold and clear that camp with a group of 3 people. I would even give it a shot duoing it with a monk. The only holdback would be mana regen and too much downtime maybe.

Ellendilh Silvermist
07-08-2002, 09:23 AM
Bah, there goes one of my main ability to be a selfish rude bastard by telling all those port beggars to go away...

Well, I guess I still have the sow/regen/ds/skin beggars to keep me occupied.. hehe...

I like it! Thanks Verant!

Khardan
07-08-2002, 09:30 AM
/agree liggie

This won't do anything to our ability or desirability.

This jes takes the firepot idea and nexus idea and puts em in one zone. . nothing new really . . .

And having a port key does not make a good druid. . .

Seems druids here think just having a mez key makes a good enchanter or having a ch key makes a good cleric. . .

Ligge
07-08-2002, 09:37 AM
No such things as pickup groups in Deep or Ssra on our server so they werent mentioned. I have to pull teeth just to get people to go to the Deep.

Cazic I agree completely with, but even taking a group there of my own guildmates I found it boring as hell. I hate sitting in one place and want zones I can actually "do" not call a camp and be bored to death for hours.

Loralin
07-08-2002, 10:11 AM
Actually Adion I still group as much if not more with my guild mates since SoL came out.

The only zone that I’ve never served as main healer for a single exp group is CT, I’ve done main healing duties in Chardok, HS, The Deep, AR and Ssar just to name a few.

I’ll start getting worried when they give exodus to the non traditional porting classes.

Yeawenette
07-08-2002, 10:23 AM
Unfortunately you still will have to pull teeth to find a spot in a Ssra (discounting the mines), Deep, or Cazic group..to name three zones.

Um, how are you going to get out of Ssra or the Deep if you're doing the challenging parts? At least on the 2nd floor in Ssra or in the basement, I'd want myself there as a backup healer in addition to the obvious necessity of an evaccer. My perma group in Ssra for months was a SK, rogue, enchanter, cleric and myself and we marauded throughout the mines, first floor and second floor, including pulling everything at Rhag'Mozdezh's room when he wasn't up. I'm sorry, but saying you will have to pull teeth to find a spot in a group for those zones is not only ignorant, it's also beside the point of this discussion. Adding city-to-city ports has ZERO effect on druids finding groups.

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 10:31 AM
Ligge, to be honest what you just listed isnt the norm for most druids. Most people wouldnt even go deep in a Dungeon with only a Druid as the only form of crowd control unless its relatively easy, or the characters are equipped very well in relation to the mobs. I still run into melee's who refuse to do anythign w/o a cleric. Heh, i remember trying to take 2 lvl 60 Druids into the hole hoping they could handle crowd control, and just about wiped, luckily one got an evac off and we said screw it. I'm sure others have experienced how resistant the EE's there are to root and snare.

I just find alot of the stuff you did very difficult for most druids, and an exception that cant be looked at as a good look at what Druids can do, cuz most cant do those things. Most Druids couldnt handle a main healer role w/o a slower. Most Druids couldnt handle a crowd control role deep in a dungeon w/ multiple mobs that hit very hard in tight spaces. Most druids couldnt make significant contributions to any group without mana. Most Druids are limited by their mana pool. A group with no mana regen means your lom, and lom means you cant do as much. I still believe, and will always believe a well rounded group that can play moderately well can do far more than a makeshift group of classes that can play their classes very well.

You see, your limited by what you have at your disposal, and this goes for everybody in EQ. What good is a druid that can play his class better than any other druid if he doesnt have the mana to do it? Same with a tank, what good is he if he doesnt have enough healing to do what he has to do? A Druid in a group with a Bard and Ench will look a hell of alot more impressive than one with thats constantly sitting worrying about his mana w/ no form of mana regen. Thats why i put a much bigger emphasis on group makeup than i do anything else if i end up starting a group. Nothings worse than getting yourself stuck in a makeshift group with tons of downtime, and i'm sure we've all been there. Sometimes you have to, but make no mistake, makeshift groups are 99% of the time steps below well-balanced groups. 99% of the time your not going deep into a dungeon even if the Druid there tells the group he can root/park 30 mobs. I've done enough pickup groups to know for a fact that makeshift classes arent nearly as efficient as a well-rounded group, and oftentimes not worth it.

So what i'm saying is the things you can do ligge, most of us cant. Its not a mental thing, because how much mana you have is how much mana you have. Without mana regen, we cant do anything, it doesnt matter how good the druid is. There are just limits, and sure a druid can point out a specific incident where they did this with that. But those are the exceptions, not the norms.

And what exactly did you contribute to that Disco group? CC only? When an Ench could have contributed CC, mana regen, melee buffs, slows, etc. Or a Shaman could have contributed CC(in the form of slow), melee buffs, SLOW, less downtime for the cleric, etc. Still would have taken a Shaman over the Druid to go along with the Cleric in that scenario, actually just about everytime considering what both offer :/

Pixal
07-08-2002, 10:46 AM
Ok, some things need to be clarified.

This ability is usable/activated(?) from the Plane of Knowledge (I think it said). Last time I checked planes were only accessible by level 46+ toons. So this is most likely not a feature those under 45 can use.

To those that like the idea, it means less porting for those 46+. Consider it an earned ability for leveling.

To those who don't like it, it means Druids/Wizzys are still needed for things like SF/EJ/EK ports. You can still go suck up money doing ports for n00bs from ring to ring.

To the person who made a valid point about the early woes of travel, and the joy of seeing the wooden bridge for the first time, etc. That's still there, they can't get to the PoK until 46.

We are still valuable for our Evacs/Succors.

In addition, think of this as also making your life easier. I don't know about you, but I hate having to port to BB or Steam, just to run to my home city in the trees.

Also, if this lets us go to SH, /rejoice now! I can finally move my bind from the Nexus!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have we all turned into bitter druids? People are getting all up in arms about something that benefits us all in some way. Just because it benefits others a little more than us in some cases, some people are turning into jealous... (fill in the blank) This is great for the game as a whole. Look past yourself at the greater good in this.

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 10:48 AM
Btw, my intentions arent to be negative or positive. My intent is to be a realist :)

Yeawenette
07-08-2002, 10:54 AM
Broom, your points are valid, since maybe 99% of the druids in the game aren't as crafty (or whatever you want to call it) as Ligge.

But, what the hell does this have to do with city to city ports being available to everyone?

Broomhilda
07-08-2002, 10:58 AM
One last thing, who is in an uproar? I swear some people dont read anything, and make some crazy exxagerations. As far as i know every Druid in this thread is happy but me. And my dissatisfaction has to do with more than just ports talked about in this thread which i stated numerous times.

It has to do with the steady nerfing that Druids have accepted by Verant w/o compensation. I have yet to get an answer to why you all think its perfectly acceptable to give away Druid abilities because it can make the game easier on other classes, but the same doesnt hold true in relation to giving us other class abilities.

Fayne Dethe
07-08-2002, 11:08 AM
Actually, the planes you can battle in for PoP are restricted to level 46+ players. The draw for lower level players is the fact that they can use the Plane of Knowledge (or whatever it is) to port around all of Norrath. Thus, there is no level limit to use the new porting method in PoP, or else Verant wouldnt have anything to get low level players to buy the new expansion.

With the new porting with PoP on the horizon, Verant really should make some changes to make Luclin less of a pain to get around for the real porting classes ;p. Put in a druid port (must be on Luclin to use) to zones like Grimmling Forest, Twilight Sea, and a port to the druid tree in Shadow Haven ;p. Ridiculous that druids still dont have a port to Shadow Haven while wizards have one to Nexus. All classes are soon going to be better porters than druids are inside Luclin ;p.

Ligge
07-08-2002, 11:09 AM
Yeah and I see your points but none of these issues we are discussing effect or will be effected by people being able to port from city to city. That only makes life better for everyone, especially us as raid taxis with the one stop pickup plan vs 5 porting locs.

As for the rest, I am not superman and I dont have NToV or one snippet of God loot on me. I admit I do have just about as good as you can get without touching NToV/Gods/Bosses, but I am not special in that regards. Many druids here make me look like a newbie in comparison to equipment, but anyway. You are correct most groups wont, but I tend to make absurd agreements with the pickup groups to get them to try and yes many times they are all in awe of what they are capable of once I show them they really can do this stuff.

And what exactly did you contribute to that Disco group? CC only? When an Ench could have contributed CC, mana regen, melee buffs, slows, etc.

PotG - sure wimpy but it works
Girdle - better than enchanter
Regrow - enchanter doenst have that
NR on MT/puller 24/7 - cant touch that
nukes, dots - unless they have dire charm we win there too
Slow - they win

Or a Shaman could have contributed CC(in the form of slow), melee buffs, SLOW, less downtime for the cleric, etc.

PotG - sure wimpy but it works and with a shaman the cleric gets none, with me they get some
Girdle - shaman smoke us obviously in the buff dept
Regrow - equal here, but some of us have manaless
NR on MT/puller 24/7 - torpors vs NR?
nukes, dots - we win there
Slow - the smoke us

Still would have taken a Shaman over the Druid to go along with the Cleric in that scenario, actually just about everytime considering what both offer :/

I still think its a toss up. If they had had the shaman rather than me they would have been doing CR at the end of the night when some idiot trained us with about 12-15 mobs... I got them out alive. Shaman could have slowed them all so we all died slower I guess or so that we could train someone else. ;)

Oh well we are diverging down class comparison debates and its gonna get ugly again so I am bowing out. But my point up top is still valid. This is a good thing for us I think. In this day and age of gate potions, shaman port potions, Thurgadin potions, firepots and Nexus making travel just a little bit easier is a great thing to encourage people to do things together and not make them waste an hour of their evening trying to all get to one location.

Sorrun
07-08-2002, 11:24 AM
Broom, I think the answer to your question is in how you define druid abilities. You will not find alot of druids, judging by this thread, that will agree that ports are a defining ability. Wizards have also shared this ability for a long, long time and if I recall were supposed to get it from the beginning but for some reason didnt.

I think that is your answer, but probably not the one you wanted. Calling this a nerf is a bit of a stretch since it really doesnt adversly effect druids at all, as a matter of fact it gives us and wizards even more flexibility with our bind points at little or no cost to our spell book. You can basically forever bind in the remote locale of the week and use rings and pots to get to just about any zone within minutes. Is this really a nerf to druids? I think not...

FyyrLuStorm
07-08-2002, 01:25 PM
Obviously porting was *intended* to get Druids(Wizards) groups.

Equally obvious is that it never really worked out that way. For most Druids, that is.

From 38 to 50ish, I was camped by a bard, whenever I logged on, get a tell within minutes. Grouped up,,,and went places and killed things.

He has since retired, but I still get tells(and groups to go kill stuff) from the associates that I met and made friends with during those days.

I definately see his point, but after becoming junior representative of DAPB, I see the other as well.

Tiane
07-08-2002, 02:12 PM
Well I'm with ya on this one Broomhilda. I follow yer logic and agree completely. While I dont really have an objection to it, as making travel easier for regular players can only be regarded as a good thing, the fact remains that it *was* a class defining ability of a druid/wizard.

It's obviously no longer the case. Wizards were the masters of damage... Then they were the masters of magical damage... I dont recall VI ever giving them the handle of masters of travel as well, tho they are clearly that now.

Druids were there original masters of travel. Over time, this has been watered down. To be expected, I suppose, but this was my first mmorpg. I didnt even know about ports when I made my druid in march of 99 :cool: Now, no longer are we NOT masters of travel... travel in itself is becoming meaningless. I'm not debating whether thats a good thing or not. I've been on the flip side.. my level 60 monk with 14aa's on the same account as my druid (one puter, one account, no pl'ing... i'm just a glutton for punishment) has run from point a to point b countless times. I dont really mind it tho.

Point is, ok fine, so we're not masters of travel. Travel is becoming trivial. You point to evacs.. Well whoopee. I think I actually succor to the zone in an emergency once a week, if that. You say how're you gonna get out of ssra basement? Get a TL. No wiz? Use yer thurga gate potion / gate hammer/ thingy from Grieg/ etc. There are options, and if yer a melee without some form of gating then go take up pottery for an hour and then forget about worrying how to get out of somewhere.

What's that leave us? Clerics say we're fine healers for xp groups... it's true if yer in seb or velks or some place easy. Painful without a chanter/bard/shammy but doable. Not so easy in luclin. How's it gonna be in PoP? Think we can see a trend... never mind the mind boggling choices of healing3 focus items and the barrage of silence VI responds with when questioned about priest balancing.

Damage? Well with moonfire we're pretty decent. Not wizard damage nukewise, but good. Not even close to mage or necro damage w/pet + spells. Plus with no concussion/jolt/fd/da type spells to lose aggro, we cant nuke OR heal at full blast without going splat. Fine I can deal with that, have been for 60+ levels, nothing new there.

Where I'm going? Same place as has been pointed at before... and many of you continue not to see it. Druid spells and abilities have continually been given out to other classes with no compensation or return on those abilities. Travel is now being given out to all. Again we're likely to see nothing in exchange. Dont kid yourself that this wont affect druids as a class. We're already watered down to being a half-assed wizard that can sorta heal and sorta port. And they keep adding water.

Tia

Cassea
07-08-2002, 03:36 PM
I cannot believe my ears here.

Ports were a class defining ability when the game came out pure and simple. It matters not that we take them for granted now and consider it a bother.

IT MATTERS THAT VERANT CONSIDERED PORTS A PRIME ABILITY TO THE DRUID CLASS!

Repeat that over and over.

Have you said it ten times yet? Good.

Now consider this.... (example only)

With POP there will now be Clarity stations in all the cities in which you can run to a terminal and get a free 1 hour clarity cast on you.

Now hold your breath and lets here what the chanters have to say about this.

Chanters are asked for clarity more than druids are asked for ports. Surely they would love this change right? Actually this is not a clear cut example because at lease chanters would be needed to refresh clarity deep in dungeons or for crowd control but you can see the point.

I seriously cannot believe that Druids are allowing Verant to give away the store with ZERO ZERO ZERO compensation.


When Verant gave away snare to other classes we said nothing. Gave group regen to shamen (and made their spell easy to get while ours is STILL uber rare) we said nothing - Gave us no new spells (all combo spells) with SOL and we said nothing, removed harmony from many new zones and we said nothing - made many mods snare proof and still nothing - gave wizards TL and a port to nexus and not us and we did not blink - added jump boots and new aa points so SOW is no longer needed - added other classes to some of our armor and you guessed it nothing - now they are watering down our port ability by giving it to everyone...

AND WE ARE THANKING VERANT FOR SHOVING IT ONCE AGAIN UP OUR A--!

My god what more can they possibly do to us?

Broom said it right when he/she asked what other PRIME abilities of other classes were given to us?

It matters not that we no longer like to port others (if you think far far far far back we at one time could not wait to get group ports!) it matters that (as was stated by others) that Verant designed the Druid class around our ability to port and sow and balanced us based on these prime abilities.

Now ports and sow are no longer needed in the game (or soon will be) and what did druids get to compensate? NOTHING!

And we thank them for it - Am I the only one confused here?

For years ports = druids
For years sow = druids

Now what are druids?

Oldoaktree
07-08-2002, 03:40 PM
On the whole DA debate I was thunderstruck the other day to realize we do in fact have such an ability. It is just not useful.

Spirit of Cheetah.

Hear me out.

I honestly think this spell is in our book to fulfill the role of DA for druids. Only, it was poorly thought out and implemented at a time when summoning mobs were extremely rare (and has never been revisited).

Now I would love to have something more raid friendly than "run away fast if you happen to be outside and keep this useless spell memmed".

But I do think it was meant to be our DA equiv so to speak. Definitely not done with even grouping in mind though.

Oldoaktree
07-08-2002, 03:47 PM
Quote:

Chanters are asked for clarity more than druids are asked for ports. Surely they would love this change right? Actually this is not a clear cut example because at lease chanters would be needed to refresh clarity deep in dungeons or for crowd control but you can see the point.

I seriously cannot believe that Druids are allowing Verant to give away the store with ZERO ZERO ZERO compensation.


First, chanters don't have to change zones and spend 10 or 15 min casting clarity. A more appropriate comparison would be casting sow is like casting clarity. Not a big problem. Most of us will even take the time to mem it (or SoE) for someone.

For me the biggest compensation for them giving away this druid ability is that well they are giving it away. I HATE being a taxi. I (like some others mentioned) did not even know druids could port when I made mine, and what it has meant for me is harassment and annoyance. I never really did the taxi for money thing (or not for long) because even soloing I could make as much money killing stuff as I could from ports at every play level I have ever been in the game.

If VI were taking away succor / evac, it would be a different story. That IS an important ability that gets us groups.

Porting just gets us annoying tells from people who want us to help them set up their experience groups that they may well not want us in.

I am also a huge fan of TL, though in guilty moments I wish I had it too so the wizzies would not get stuck for 15 min at the end of a raid TL'ing everyone 1 by 1. But do I miss porting out groups porting back getting more porting again, each time stopping in 5 zones and having someone tell me "no no sorry I meant Feerrot not Tox"? No way....

Can't wait for PoP and the peace it will surely bring.

Now as far as compensating us for chipping away at our abilities, I am of course all for it. But the way I look at all of this is that come October, no one in their right mind is going to make the argument that we are balanced because we can port and sow. Least of all Verant. They are freeing us from a bit of tired rhetoric that is always used against us, and I am all for that.

Ligge
07-08-2002, 03:54 PM
I think the point some people are missing is that some of us feel we are being compensated by them doing this city to city port.

I am 100% thankful I am no longer to be looked as a taxi port bitch for hire.

Wheres that leave us? That leaves us to make out own niche without some predetermined bull**** class defining ability that we are expected to be wanted for and get groups because of in the end.

I dont want to be desired because I can cast Cheal.

I dont want to be desired because I have clarity.

I dont want to be desired because I have slow.

I want to be desired because I know how to play my class and no matter what abilities I have or do not have I am always an asset to any party that adds me to their ranks.

I have that already. I just wish others could see its the people that make the difference and how they use their abilities regardless of class defining or not that turn the tide, not the "oh yippee I can cast slow I am uber and will always have a group". I am a cocky sob, but you know what? People actually say "we need Ligge to do this" however, they dont say "we cant do this without a druid".

My role is not defined by Verant it is defined by me.


Edit: I got to thinking, its threads like this that help me remember why I am a druid and why I will always remain a druid in Norrath. Thanks again for making me defend my class and renewing my love for it. And thank you Verant for giving others a taste of what some of Norrath sees as my class defining role so that I can be what I want to be and not what they think I should be doing. This taxis glad to retire that role.

SilleyEskimo
07-08-2002, 04:02 PM
"My role is not defined by Verant it is defined by me."

/agree

However, that kind of thinking seems to have left the DG long ago.

Also, you can basically have clarity all the time with FT items and what-not, so that argument is defunct. I just don't buy it...

Fairweather Pure

Role Meggido
07-08-2002, 04:04 PM
Honestly, opening up pots and ports between cities has been a long time coming. I would be honestly suprised if anyone didn't agree with this. EQ has just gotten so big these days. Inherently, increased ability to move for non porting classes is not a bad thing. It makes folks happier and speeds up the game. It will make the game better and folks happier.

I also agree that this doesn't take away from the desirability of druids that much. I still imagine druids will be picking up group members, porting folks out of raids, and evacing groups. Port pots are nice, but porting classes bring that ability along with you, which is ultimately where it counts.

Having said that, I strongly feel that some attention should be paid to the ballence issues of porting classes. I feel this should be done whenever a class or arch ability is made available to all players. I generally feel that something should be given to classes that loose parts of their uniqeness.

I do not think the things given should be dramatic. Maybe just slight bumps to innate hp/ac, upping of weapon caps, upping of innate resists, etc. Nothing huge but something.

Something I would like as a general rule for porting changes:
-When new port locations are added porting classes should at the very least get a self only gate to the location. Ideally they should get a group port to the same location. (ex nexus, proposed city ports). If there is concern about people buying the expansion, make the spells no drop quests in the expansion.

Oldoaktree
07-08-2002, 05:05 PM
Some good comments Ligge but I find it a little oversimplifying.

While I consider myself a good druid, and feel I play well, and yes I contribute a lot, that doesn't mean I will still be chosen over other guildmates who also play their classes very well and contribute a lot but have more valuable skills for grouping.

We have great chanters, and clerics, and shamans etc in our guild. A group will form and yes druids do get invites, but I guarantee even a close guildmate will choose a shaman's buffs and slows over a druid's flexibility if the choice is between the two of us. My 2 plus years as a druid is not a greater asset than their 2 plus years playing a shaman, mage, ranger, etc etc.

Do I complain that I can never get a group? No. And yes I think I am well worth the spot when I get one. But as it stands now, some classes are just stronger contributers in a group (and of course a raid) depending on the line up you have. No matter how skilled the individual player is.

I still love my druid and would not swap him for any class. I can't imagine that I won't be playing him the last day I ever play EQ (whenever that might be). But I do feel there are legitimate issues about neededness that druids face every day and we hopefully will see at least some improvements come out of caster balancing.

Aldarion Shard
07-08-2002, 05:40 PM
i agree 100% with what all of you are saying... i play a warrior and enchanter as my new mains, my druid having been shelved at 52, and i LOVE this change.

but any druid who forgets this one key point is a traitor to their class:

that the reason we dont have more heals: is our ports.
the reason we dont have slow: is our ports.
the reason we dont have better nukes, dots, etc... our ports.

yes, this is a little overstated. but the fact is that evrant has ALWAYS considered porting when talking about balance between classes. as have clerics. and shaman. and rightly so, because porting is a powerful thing.

but porting goes out the window with PoP.

Im ready for my Torpor now.

Nippo Pottomus
07-08-2002, 06:16 PM
I have no problem with adding ports to cities with PoP, however I strongly hope VI takes this into consideration with there new priest class balencing. Druids do very well for themselves solo, and that is a key feature of our class. But the truth is, there is no need for druids in the high end game. The only possible spell that a druid would be wanted for, is circle of seasons, and even that is only good for FR/CR battles. The fact that we can solo from 1-60 is nice, but after you hit 60, there isnt much else to do if your not needed on raids. Currently, I can see 3 options to improve a druids usefullness on raids (or highend group for that matter)

1. Improve our healing ability and make us the best secondary healers. Clerics should always be number 1, but there is no reason druids cant be a close second.

2. Improve our damage dealing capabilities. We have some fine nukes as it is, however our damage dealing will not come close to that of a rogue/wizzy. Not to mention on any MR mobs, we do 0 dmg (where melee dmg is uneffected, and wizards still have lures)

3. Do something creative, that becomes very usefull to a raid. This one is sort of difficult, would need to come up with an entirely new line of spells that is Unique to druids. As it is now druids have ZERO class defining abilities.

Sorrun
07-08-2002, 06:17 PM
Aldarion, I disagree...

The reason we dont get slow, CH or clarity is that we have just about everything else... those are really the only abilities we DONT have and CH is arguably just as much a curse as anything else. I wouldnt want anywhere near a druid version of CH...

I just dont agree that this change is a nerf to druids. I think many around the DG are just so used to focusing on the negative they fail to see the positive. We dont lose anything here and gain an even more versitile bind spot. Sure other classes can travel town to town easier now but that is nowhere near the same as being able to port to druid rings or wizard spires especially since druids and wizards will use the pots as well.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-08-2002, 06:53 PM
I want to be desired because I know how to play my class and no matter what abilities I have or do not have I am always an asset to any party that adds me to their ranks.

Ligge, it would be safe to say that a goodly number of the regular posters/lurkers here are excellent or better druids.

I'm a damned good druid when it comes to grouping or raiding (to hell with false modesty). As good as I am or can be, it doesn't solve the fact that most groups would rather have a cleric to heal and wizard to port.

Am I invited to be the primary healer or crowd control to some pretty tough places? Yes, but only if they can't find a cleric or bard or chanter. Can I do it? Yes. Will the group slow down because I'm replacing the Cleric or Bard/chanter? Definately.

Skill will not give me Cheal or CE or DL. Skill will not give me usable stuns, mez, or mana regen. Skill will not permit me to unleash the sheer destructive power of a wizard.

I can tank a Flurry Drake though =P

Ultimately:

Verant has given away another Druid ability. Would you like to lay odds on how much equity they show in compensating us for that loss?

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-08-2002, 06:58 PM
Also, you can basically have clarity all the time with FT items and what-not, so that argument is defunct. I just don't buy it...

There is a reason why Verant permitted faster mana regen into the game. Its because you need it now. Between AAxp, FT items, and spells I have 14 mana regen per tick, standing. More than just plain ole C2. Its nowhere near enough. As a druid doing multiple things in any group I'm in, I almost never get a chance to sit during a fight. Sitting = Hobbit tank. So I'm casting frequently for decent periods of time w/o being able to med. I need that clarity/c2/KEIs.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-08-2002, 07:07 PM
The reason we dont get slow, CH or clarity is that we have just about everything else... those are really the only abilities we DONT have

What you mean "we" Paladin?

<cough> BTW, we don't get Mez.

We don't get effective charms (go ahead, claim Animal or even better Plant charm is effective in a group outside of a few sparse zones, I dare you).

We don't get effective stuns (Fury of Air takes forever to cast, gets resisted often unless the mob is tashed, and has a ridiculously slow recast time, depend on it to stop CH and Gate at your own peril).

We don't get lures.

We don't get Slow.

We don't get a useful pet.

We don't get TLs.

We don't even get a self only port on luclin.

We don't get Reses.

LilWolf
07-08-2002, 07:18 PM
Every answer I've heard so far but two has been by level 50+ it seems.

Do you remember when you first turned 19 and started porting around!

Do you remember when you first turned 34 and you brought your friends along!

Do you remember when you were wanted in a group for being great a traveling ("Great, a druid... lets go to XXX and see if anyones there!")

I remember each of these. I started a druid 100% to be a good traveler! I wanted to see the world, and I didn't want to take that !@#!@# boat again.

If I wanted to solo, I would have picked a necro or a shaman. We are good at it... but not nearly as good as a Necro (and shamans later). There are tons of fun soloing classes (enchanter and bards are great... fun... not as efficient but MUCH more fun soloing).

I think it will kinda suck that new druids will not care about 19th and 34th. I think it will suck that people will travel from FP to Q without seeing the wooden bridge once.

but all in all.... I will love it for my other classes... just took everything way from druids that made them special.

Miss Foxfyre
07-08-2002, 07:49 PM
Having a druid and non-porting characters, I have totally mixed feelings about PoP plans. When I leveled a druid, porting was a rite of passage, and it was a way to make some plat occasionally. On other characters I pay for ports or deal with the cumbersome Nexi -- sometimes you can't find a port in "remote" areas.

Travel should be easier, but chipping away at one of the druids' innate abilities sucks quite frankly, as VI will most likely NOT compensate for it in another way. Tit for tat? Nope. So I disagree with the erosion based on principle, not on practice.

Sorrun
07-08-2002, 07:52 PM
Aidon, what can I say... pointless but consistant... obviously there are spells druids dont have but nobody enjoys the variety they have and that was my point... those were the only three listed so I used them. Variety is what stands in the way of druids getting further enhancements, not ports.

Cassea
07-08-2002, 08:09 PM
You have to understand that taking "any" of the small nerfs alone does not seem like much but we have to take a stand somewhere.

You have to look at the overall picture and look at all the things Druids used to have near exclusive use of that were given away or watered down:

sow
ports
dots
snares
harmony
spells (almost all new spells are simply combo spells and not better mana/damage/heal ratio)
group regen
Damage Shield
heals
armor

prob more I'm not thinking of.

I cannot think of anything given to us to compensate for this. If you look at each one separately they may not seem like a big deal but am I the only one sick and tired of giving away or nerfing our abilities?

A prior poster is also 100 percent correct in that the poor mid level druids did make money on porting or were desired for port abilities even though many of us forget that not everyone power levels their druid to 50+ in a few days *smiles*

The world had gotten larger but it seems to have become smaller due to the nexus and it will become even smalled with POP. For better or worse people used to get a feeling of being in the middle of know where in WK or making the run from Freeport to Qeynos being an expidition.

Everything now seems to be about getting to a kill location faster and less about being emused (sp?) in an online world.

It matters not whether you care or not about ports or any of the above listed abilities. It matters that Verant counts porting against us.

I have been baking into a corner and I cannot back up any further. I will wait and see what Verant has in mind for Druids with this rebalancing.

Maybe, just maybe they will surprise us and give us something to do on high level raids as well as compensate the low-mid level druids for taking away the very last ability (ports) that helped get them a group or some plat in their pockets to buy the spells/equip they cannot get as we cannot "solo" indoors very well at all where Verant put much of our items.

Holding my breath - hoping for the best but looking over my shoulder for the nerf bat.

Qwin
07-08-2002, 08:21 PM
"Ligge, to be honest what you just listed isnt the norm for most druids. Most people wouldnt even go deep in a Dungeon with only a Druid as the only form of crowd control unless its relatively easy, or the characters are equipped very well in relation to the mobs."

Broom your wrong about that, it all deepends on the druid. Your right there are plenty of druids I wouldn't even begin to consider doing something like that with. But there are far more that play there class competantly, that I would have no problem doing that with.

Qwin

Miss Foxfyre
07-08-2002, 08:30 PM
You have to look at the overall picture and look at all the things Druids used to have near exclusive use of that were given away or watered down:

Exactly. Like I said, there has been no tit for tat.

TTraveller
07-08-2002, 09:11 PM
The people who say that druids are still competent as a class, and still desirable, obviously play their twink more than their druid nowadays. I personally have felt subpar as a class for well over a year now. Not because i can't play my class well, and get the job done, but because noone WANTS a druid. Notice the word want. Everyone WANTS a chanter or a cleric or a warrior or a rogue..etc...etc. You get groups simply because you have friends, who like you as a person, or because they couldn't dig up a wizard to evac for them. Not because of your superior skills, or druidic talents.

ANYONE that say's" hey, look at it this way...we get so many different abilities. That's why we don't get a useful ability.", is seriously delusional. Yeah we get alot of abilities, too bad most of the time i can't use them or they are totally useless (re: OD spells) I mean really??? Go down the damn list.

DS..mages kick the crap out of this..not needed if someone is present to slow.
Heal....LOL...yes i can heal decently and keep up...by draining my mana bar constantly...how the hell shammies can be better than us considering they have slow is beyond me.
Charm...yeah right...
sow...see shaman
port...see wizard
pet...lol fluffy's so cute..what a joke
soloing...necros are way better


I'm sure there are many more, i'm just very tired atm. I dare any of you VAK"s as Broom coined the term, to come back and tell me an ability we have that someone doesn't do much better.
Face it the druid is the worst class in EQ period right now, and has been for some time.
AND YOU DON"T MIND THEM GIVING AWAY PORTS!!!!!

Selldor
07-08-2002, 09:50 PM
My druid been around since EQ release day 2, and I remember well all the balancing issues in the early months. I remember where the druid fell into in relation to the other classes. We were well rounded and fit in well.

Yes we were the prime solo'ers but we could fit in a group easily enough, and bring a variety of skills to the table, albeit not "quite" as well as the primary classes they came from.

Over the years with successive releases these abilities have been given away to other/all classes in a variety of ways. We have effectively been continually nerfed, without being directly nerfed.

On it's own, this city porting issue doesn't make a crap of difference to me, and yes, it will make life easier for some druids and most travellers in the game. It is a nerf though. A small nerf, but it is another nerf in that it makes another line of our spells less needed.

I fully understand the frustration and arguments of some who have posted in this thread, and I am another druid who is tired of Verant giving us away in large or small pieces to the rest of Norrath with no return compensation.

To those of you who can't understand what has/is happening to the druid, either a: haven't been through the full norrathan life of the druid and/or are low IQ ogur types that play druids as PL twinks and/or are low IQ Verant board plants trying to convince us that these "little" nerfs are of no consequence.

Each on there own may be of little or no issue, but add them up, ( and what will be next?) and the issue has become very large, to a point where as the game gets larger and harder, we go in the other direction, becoming less and less useful with greater and greater reduction in power and ability compared to the other classes.

As you cheer this move .... what will they do next ?

Nuvian Caelestis
07-08-2002, 10:32 PM
Shrug, I read about the first page before I stopped. I don't mind the ports, less people bugging me for ports is fine with me. I got to lvl 60 just fine without sitting around charging people for ports heh, it's not a big deal.

Dunno if it was answered earlier in the thread but plan of knowledge is for all levels, not just 46+

aandaie
07-09-2002, 12:33 AM
Porting is a convenience and no one has ever wanted me in their group as a druid because I could port. People have wanted to use me, possibly for pocket change, because I could port.

I'm a staunch opponent of class interdependance, or rather the dependance on each other to do anything. The less of it that exists in the game, the happier I am. My other character is a cleric who is newly excited about having a 60 percent res; in a heartbeat she'd jump for joy if verant stuck 90 percent npc "resurrecters" in every zone that you could drag corpses to (or do it in some other way) Its kind of like porting, a silly thing that one class should not be able to do while the rest want it constantly done for them.

Recently in a fit of boredom, I resigned up to Anarchy Online. Its improved a lot since I quit back in September. Most of all the thing I love about it is that there is no class dependance. Sure, a doctor in a group means you can tackle more outrageously too powerful -for-you-foes but to the best of my knowledge anyone could solo and do it all on their own. I was merrily doing solo missions at level 35 with my doctor, using martial arts skills to beat down things that were up to an orange con (sort of similar con system to EQ, orange is less than red.. then down to yellow, yellow green, green, etc)

Anyone who dies at that game pops up back at the cell thing they saved their state at, with the same xp loss from when they last saved their state (or if you just leveled you don't have to worry, you never lose the level)

Anyone who travels in that game can hoof it/use speed increasing general nanos or use the grid (though it requires a high degree of a certain skill I've not bothered to invest in) or even more easily one of the many teleportation devices in cities and such (whompas)

EQ2, SWG, Worlds of warcraft etc are going to do this equality stuff even more so you better get used to it ;)
Classes are going to either not exist or just exist for
fun differences in grouping but you won't need anyone
in particular. EQ2 might be the one holdout, probably in the Bard/enchanter mana way.

As far as druids in this game, I really don't get all the "watering down" talk. Druids as a class have done nothing but improve. People don't want you because other classes
can do stuff you can't or do things better and groups are limited to 6 people. Most of the reasons have never changed in 3 years so its not due to some recent "watering down." We always had worse heals than clerics, we still do (though we have MUCH better heals than we did) We still can't resurrect or give clarity. We still can't be the main tank.

For us nothing has really changed as far as our place, the same reasons a group might have been full when I was level 49 with the level 50 limit are the reasons I get now why the group is full when I'm level 56 with a level 60 limit "we really need a cleric to resurrect, an enchanter and/or bard for mana return and a warrior (or possibly other) to tank." Really I see Ranger, Paladin and shadowknight having it far harder and there being far more of a difference for them with the 60 level limit. I still run around when not anon on my 56 druid and get asked to group somewhere by someoen I don't even know, like in sebs or something.

tandaina
07-09-2002, 02:41 AM
/shrug

My bard and other chars will love the change (though only my bard will probably be high enough to use it.) but I have to admit my druid will miss it. I never hated porting, if I didn't want to port I just DIDN'T. If I needed some money I ported. I never once advertised, i never once charged. But I usually got very nice donations and could find enough folks asking for a ride to keep me busy while I was looking to earn money.

Then again I don't really play much anymore so this doesn't really effect me either. ;)

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-09-2002, 03:51 AM
obviously there are spells druids dont have but nobody enjoys the variety they have and that was my point

Shaman have as much variety as we do.
Enchanters have as much variety as we do.
Thanks to Luclin, Clerics have almost as much variety as we do.
Bards make us look like one pony shows.

Hell, by your reasoning, Rangers should be a god class. They have all the variety of a druid plus melee.

L1ndara
07-09-2002, 04:13 AM
"I cannot think of anything given to us to compensate for this. If you look at each one separately they may not seem like a big deal but am I the only one sick and tired of giving away or nerfing our abilities?"

Well we have gained:
- Target Group Buff, nice for all casters
- crouch to cancel, nice for all casters, particularly CHers
- reduced resists on mobs, nice for most casters, great for druids, erroded wizards positions a little making lures for the most part obsolete
- Surefall Glades port. Um... whee, thank you for a "shoulda been day 1" spell.
- Low level evacs for the levels we're never in a dungeon anyway... makes one wonder why we have all these outdoor only spells. Good for getting to chessboard island.
- Focus items, nice for all casters but...

But we were:
- Singled out to have refresh times added to our nukes so we can't instaclicky.
- Singled out to lose the ancient spells that dropped off Brogg, all other classes kept them.
- Singled out to be the only class with a manapool to not have additional mana regen AA/spells in Luclin aside from Mental Clarity which everyone gets. Protection of the Cabbage's reduced manacost over glades is cute but not comparable to other classes. Lunar Whisper's effect stacking with BAotR but not Cabbage/Glades was the final nail in the coffin to piss me off over loseing ground to everyone else for manaregen.

Meanwhile:
- Translocates rendering druid porting obsolete
- Faithstones, attuned spire shards etc. more "shoulda been day 1", but again degrading our ports although Luclin's lack of ports basically said we were a no port class. Where is my faithstone to reincarnate people? My Nexus gate AA?
- Others have superior AA and focus effects. Druids crit half as often as wizards because we get crap AA, and since all focus and AA work off percentages what has happend is that those who could nuke/heal for 100 like a druid can now do it for 110 gaining 10 points, clerics/wizards who can nuke/heal for 200 now do it for 220 gaining 20 points... so we slip even further behind.

Cassea
07-09-2002, 05:08 AM
For anyone who wants a good laugh here is what newcomers to the game read on the EQ board about the Druid class when they are deciding to start a Druid. (please sit down for this)

This is current as of 7/9/2002

Druid

Nature is a druid's ally. Druids are in tune with nature; thus, their magics are nature based, drawing from the spiritual forces of both plants and animals. Whether calling forth roots to entangle an enemy, or using nature's life-giving essence to heal themselves or others, druids are the masters and servants of Nature. The dedication necessary to become a druid is great; druids can only be found among the half elf, halfling, human and wood elf races.

Druids have a love for all animals, but that does not mean all animals love druids. Although a druid will do what he or she can to avoid harming one of nature's beasts, many animals see a druid as just another source of food. This is no reflection of the piety of the druid, mind you, but rather of the simple minds of beasts. Druids, like shamans, have the ability to aid others in many ways, making both desirable members in hunting parties.

So according to this description we can heal and root. It goes on and on about how we love animals and, like shamen, we can help others in many ways but does not elaborate. It goes on and on about our dedication to nature yada yada yada but only mentions heals and roots.

I know this has changed as I remember a different version of this a few years ago but if you were starting a Druid know the word HEAL comes to mind as the only real ability that Verant mentions we can do specifically.

Just for laughs here are a few others:

Shaman

A shaman is similar to a cleric in some aspects, but is more attuned to the world of spirits and animals. They are typically found amongst the less specialized races, like the barbarian Northmen, Iksar, ogres and trolls. Other than the Northmen, who worship the Tribunal, most others follow the darker deities. While they have a solid repertoire of healing and other clerical type spells, the shaman's strengths lie in offensive and augmenting spells which can benefit others in their everyday lives. Many of the latter draw from the spiritual power of the animals with whom a shaman communes.

Cleric

A cleric is a healer devoting his or her life in service of a god. Many races (dark elves, dwarves, Erudites, gnomes, halflings, high elves and humans) have members whose entire lives are devoted to worship, and although anyone can worship in his or her own way, only those who have fully committed themselves to the prayerful life of a cleric are granted a god's great favor of healing power. With daily prayers, service, and meditation, clerics receive their powers in order to aid and protect others. Clerics are forbidden to shed the blood of others and so have skills only in blunt weaponry. While they cannot compete with the sheer force of a warrior's attack, clerics are certainly able to protect themselves in many situations.

You can pop over and read the rest at:

http://eqlive.station.sony.com/library/classes.jsp

Can anyone think of a more descriptive paragraph for the Druid Class? A shiney gold piece for the best *smiles*

Paldor
07-09-2002, 05:12 AM
Well I think we finally have an argument for a second bind spot and a teleport to that spot.

Call it Sanctifiy...

<font color="blue">Paldor focuses the blessings of nature upon the area.</font>

Make this ability:

1) Only usable outdoors.
2) Use a component (100pp?)

Then the druid can teleport his party to that spot with a "Circle of the Blessed Ring"

Worth asking for.

YanguBoris
07-09-2002, 05:50 AM
I've always wanted a second bind spot. Then I could keep my bind at the firepots and get one at the bazaar too :) Although with PoP it looks like the Firepots won't matter anymore.

Ligge
07-09-2002, 05:53 AM
The people who say that druids are still competent as a class, and still desirable, obviously play their twink more than their druid nowadays.

Umm no... I have one level 49 enchanter twink thats been 49 for a year. I have 240 played days on Ligge and I play him probably 30 hours a week. I have been playing him since the first week of release and I will play him until I retire from Norrath.

Kahlia Girlie
07-09-2002, 05:53 AM
I was with ya up until you said this:

"Singled out to be the only class with a manapool to not have additional mana regen AA/spells in Luclin "

Let's look at WHY druids didn't need aditional mana regen spells in Luclin - oh yeah, they already had 9 mana regen compared to the zero mana regen of mages and clerics. Now mages have 3 and clerics have 6. Guess what! We are still beating them both put together. (Dunno the regen on other classes since I don't have toons of those classes)

I think Stalker alone was a significant enough change for those of us who spend hours at a time in a dungeon. Why should we have gotten yet another buff to bump us to a higher regen rate?

Aldarion Shard
07-09-2002, 06:16 AM
why do i keep seeing this argument that ports dont get us groups?

ask a cleric why we shouldnt get CH.

they will tell you: because druids have it easy, with sow and ports... they level up easy, and so dont deserve the same reward as cleric who have to level up without all these conveniances.

they had a point until PoP.

this is NOT just about what gets you groups. balance is not just about that. balance is about the class as a whole. soloing, conveniance factors, inconveniances.

you do remeber that the bad faction associated with iksars and necromancers are major factors in their balancing, right? but when was the last time you said "lets not get the lizard he has bad faction".

grouping, riading, these are not the end all of class balance.

as for variety of spells... anyone who honestly thinks druids have this "great variety of spells..."which makes up for the lack of useful or defining ones.../shrug

eq.castersrealm.com

check out enchanter spellbooks sometime. druids are the most broken class in EQ right now (well except monks but in different directions), and get more broken with this PoP port change.

Yeawenette
07-09-2002, 06:31 AM
1. I want to be wanted in a group because of the class I play.
2. I want to be wanted in a group because of who I am, how I play, etc.

I pick 2.

A lot of you seem to pick 1 by your words. Is that really what you mean?

Ligge
07-09-2002, 06:33 AM
why do i keep seeing this argument that ports dont get us groups?

ask a cleric why we shouldnt get CH.

they will tell you: because druids have it easy, with sow and ports... they level up easy, and so dont deserve the same reward as cleric who have to level up without all these conveniances.

You didnt even back up your own question there with that answer. Sounds like you are grasping for straws now. I think people are semi upset because you think you are losing something here but you arent.

City to city porting will never replace us as taxis. Never. It helps us if anything. More consolidated pick up spots, less whiny guild members and friends AND strangers when you arent willing to drop what you are doing and be their slave? Thats all good stuff.

The only people this will negatively effect are those that try and make their income soley off being a port whore. Yeah, you can guess how I feel about those people already.

Succor may help get us groups from time to time. Ports may help get us groups from time to time but thats even more rare. The Hole and HS come to mind, but these arent pickup group locations so the whole "we are LFG and we suck" scenario has absolutely no ground to stand on there.

I am still just baffled that people can see this as a nerf at all, yes I have read every post here... it does nothing but speeds up our mobilization efforts and make the world a more pleaseant and enjoyable place. you are a good druid you are still going to get groups based on that anyway. I just cant imagine ever hearing:

"Hey we need someone to snare and help with damage, theres a ranger and a druid LFG. Get the ranger. I can just run to FV afterwards and use the pots so theres no need to add the druid since the only reason we were going to was so we could get a port when we were done."

Suurre.

Rohkit
07-09-2002, 06:47 AM
Very reminiscent of the argument on the Ranger's Glade way back when T-Boots were going into the game--well, not that you can really consider me and a couple other folks saying it's bad vs. a few thousand saying it's good as an "argument", lol :)

My basic complaint then, as now:

Suppose I pick my class because I get abilities A, B, and C. 90% of the other player base doesn't get those abilities--they get other powers X,Y,Z that I don't get. It balances.

Suddenly the other 90% receives ability A, B, and/or C handed to them (argue all you want, that's still basically what something like this does.)

Did I get worse as a class? There's no direct nerf...I can still do everything I did before. But there IS a relative nerf--is having skillset A, B and C now worth the loss of skills X, Y & Z?

Hell no.

I don't care how 'convenient' it is for non druids/wizards (or you druids who hate to port others). Someone who did not have the ability at creation shouldn't suddenly get a massive freebie that someone else already paid a penalty to get (except maybe when done to correct a class imbalance.)

But since they will, I want something for druids (and wizards) to compensate for that relative nerf.

Aldarion Shard
07-09-2002, 06:57 AM
Hey we need someone to snare and help with damage, theres a ranger and a druid LFG

dont be silly. if those are the roles needed, the ranger is ALWAYS HANDS DOWN the better choice.

1. I want to be wanted in a group because of the class I play.
......A lot of you seem to pick 1 by your words. Is that really what you mean?

hi, welcome to everquest. what game have You been playing?

i have to LMAO every time someone says "i get groups because people like me.. and i tell funny little jokes... umm... and .... umm.... i have nicely groomed foothair!" greeeaaaat.

the rest of us have 6 spots to fill, and certain roles need filling. healer, tank, melee damage, evac (rarely), CC. we fill those spots, and if all roles are filled then we can take on some "extras".

those of you who are so proud of the fact that your friends let you group with them despite your choice of class. imagine the things you could do if you played a shaman... or rogue... or monk... or cleric... etc, etc etc.

Tudamorf
07-09-2002, 07:11 AM
aandaie says: Porting is a convenience and no one has ever wanted me in their group as a druid because I could port.

To the person in charge of game balance, the proper question is not "will class X still be wanted in groups if we make change Y."

It's: "will class X be a desirable class to play after we make change Y."

Everquest is almost mindlessly fixated on imposing massive downtime and then setting up rewards in the form of reducing that downtime. The "conveniences" like teleporting are part of what make a class desirable to play. Remove the convenience, and you make a class less desirable, causing the class to become unbalanced.

Many here don't remember, but in the early days druid teleport/run enhancement ability was a large part of the class -- along with nukes that rivaled wizards, wonderfully effective damage shields, substantial healing ability, and among the best solo ability.

Now? Nukes are pathetic in comparison to melee, and much weaker than wizards. Damage shields are nearly useless. Healing ability ... well, ermm, you know. Solo ability drops down to middle of the pack if not the bottom 30%. And teleports/run enhancement spells are slowly changing from a key part of the class to an irrelevant part of the class.

This is a good trend?

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-09-2002, 07:14 AM
Why should we have gotten yet another buff to bump us to a higher regen rate?

Because our spells are rather horribly inefficient compared to "specialist" classes.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-09-2002, 07:17 AM
1. I want to be wanted in a group because of the class I play.
2. I want to be wanted in a group because of who I am, how I play, etc.

I pick 2.

A lot of you seem to pick 1 by your words. Is that really what you mean?

You purposefully misrepresent.

Regardless of your class, who you are and how you play will play a role in your groups. However, you can be the nicest, most outstanding druid in the game and you aren't going to be asked to be the primary healer for CT over a Cleric, and if given a choice between you and a wizard for evac duty, most groups will choose the wizard.

It isn't that we'd rather have 1 over 2, its that most of us have been relying on 2 for years now but in the past year 2 hasn't been sufficient to overcome the limitations of 1.

Yeawenette
07-09-2002, 07:28 AM
I've been playing Everquest for 3 years. I've been playing a druid for 3 years.

It's funny how this thread is now focusing on a druid's utility in groups, which, personally, I think is just as useful as any other group. (Remember the clerics whining because a group would rather have a druid than a cleric because we can snare and evac and heal just fine?)

Druids are broken in high-end raids, I'm not a total VAK, and druids need upgrades to become wanted beyond 1 or 2 to debuff and cast Circle of Seasons.

In most 'difficult' grinds, the ones where you represent a druid is an insufficient healer, almost every group I know would rather have a druid than a wizard to provide backup healing primarily and our other utilities secondarily.

That said, I must be honest. I've been in one pickup group in the last 8 months. The only thing standing in my way of finding groups when I log on is the availability of other people who are not already grouped, i.e. the time of day when I log on.

Not everyone is concerned with min/maxing their experience to time played ratio. Some people still play this game to have fun. Personally, I have 20 AAs and could care less if I ever get any more (though this is somewhat of a knock on the relative undesirability of our AA skills).

At any rate, I still believe the most efficient group I can form for a tough dungeon crawl is one plate tank, two damage classes, enchanter, cleric, druid.

Broomhilda
07-09-2002, 07:48 AM
Alot of people dont seem to be reading more than the first post. Ports in themself arent crucial to us getting groups, however they have always been a major perk to playing a Druid and have been a factor in us getting groups in situational circumstances. I didnt even factor in how the low lvl druids feel about this since its been so long i forgot how ecstatic i was to finally hit the lvl 20's so i could port around for some cash. Even though that in itself has already been watered down mainly due to giving Wizzy's the ability to translocate, w/ nothing in compensation for Druids.

I'm not gonna even argue with you people that say Porting was never a Druid ability because its silly to say that. The main point is this is another watering down of what we do, one of the biggest perks to playing a druid was travel, and now its been trivialized, and at what gain? Nothing, we havent been compensated for any of the travel abilities they've slowly given away to everybody(Translocates, AA runs, proc'ing gate items, horses, Nexus, Firepots, PoP firepots, etc.). What i find amazing is that alot of you just accept it happily, and act as though Verant will make everythign fine. I guess they made Mages just fine after aton of bitching and moaning after the fact, while mages were quitting left and right cuz they allowed their class to regress. Some of us are proactive in preventing that from happening, while some seem to wanna let the chips fall where they may.

Sure, be positive, say only positive stuff, and complement Verant as much as you want, nobodys telling you not to. But see things for how they really are, and take of them rose colored sunglasses. Its those same people who act as though we should be honored by Absors presence, and therefore say everything possible to kiss their butt. Just dont expect everyone else to kiss up, people can speak their own mind. The guilt trips of how the Grove used to be this kind, gentle, only-positive forum where all they'd do is complement Verant is just so redundant. Its changed, like it or not for the better, and theres always the Druids Circle to make you happy with the censorship your pleading for.

We all obviously care about our class. Its just some are more proactive than others in wanting whats due. The fact that our abilities have been watered down doesnt need to be argued with the people that can only read the first post in this thread. Its a fact thats been backed by numerious examples in this thead, as well as the Druid petition of which Verant ignored.

You gotta love when the ubers post talking about how its about how well you play your class when they have FT 15, running into HS with groups that have NToV gear. Sorry, but your not the norm, and your experiences dont necessarily represent the majority of druids. I know what a druids limits are, trust me. I'm not saying i'm the best druid, but i like to think of myself as competent enough. I'm out in the 'trenches'(pickup groups) just about everyday. I dont play EQ in that sheltered world where people only group with the same 5 people everyday, and get groups based on knowing them. Heh, i dont know 3/4's of the people i group with everyday, i always meet new people and i've been doing pickup groups since lvl 1. I'm sorry, but more often than not, reputation isnt going to get you pickup groups, it'll be your class abilities and how others perceive what your class can contribute next to the classes your competing against. I lose out to a Shaman everytime, and like i said i dont blame them. Slow is much more of an asset than anything i can give, not to mention they do have more than a few other abilities that cross ours plus haste/strength melee buffs, not to mention better healing. Now that travel is so trivialized, even a group that might wanna jump around some can do pretty easy w/o a Druid these days.

Our current problems dont have to do with how well you play your class, they have to do with class balance issues that are becoming more excasterbated by the watering down of druidic abilities. That trend is now blatantly obvious with the PoP firepots, wonder whats coming after that....and when people will wakeup to the facts mentioned here and the Druid petition.

Ligge
07-09-2002, 08:34 AM
*snicker*

But Broom I am one of the most vocal here saying you guys are crying wolf that think this is even an issue and my history shows I am one of the last to support or "kiss @#%$" to Verant.

I dont have FT15. I dont have NToV gear. I am a druid in a guild that exists only to feed their members to the uber guilds after we teach them and equip them so they can screw us and move on rather than continue assisting to help us grow. I have lost 3 level 60s the last month or so that owe most of their equipment to their membership with us and are now running around in so called pita "uber" guilds that call us gimps and @#%$ on us every chance they get. 1/3 of my time is in pickup groups, 1/3 with friends or raids, and 1/3 solo or tradeskills. Guess that makes me more of one of the everyday normal druids than anything else.

Personally I think the people at VI are completely out of touch with the player base and how the game is truly played and dont know the first thing about how to QA a product and quite frankly have gotten unbelievably lucky to have a product this successful this long. They should think their lucky stars that their competition, if we can call it that, has just sucked more. I will never buy another product from this company ever again.

I also agree with the wizzy TLing being a total slap in the face with no compensation and we got bent over and sodomized there no question about it and they smiled doing it.

Same goes for changes to Grey, changes to animals, changes to harmony, unsnareable mobs, relative increase in mobs vs relative increase in our power, relative increase to other classes vs relative increase to us. Yes, its true. Druids get crapped on often and I do believe the powers that be probably even get off on it when they do it. However, all of those comparisons have nothing to do with this issue.

But I see the city to city ports being a compensation and a bonus to us no more can I be classified as a port whore and no more will I cringe everytime I get the tells of:

stranger_01 tells you "hi!"

or

stranger_02 tells you "."

So thats where the difference is in my outlook vs some of the others here. People want compensation for this change and for me this change is a compensation I think that has been long overdue. I have been saying for years they needed to do this to increase flexibility and enjoyment. Brad wanted the world to feel big though. Thats a great idea Brad, but its not realistic for those of us that work 50 hours a week, are married, and have small children. Signing on to spend my 2 hours of play time traveling and LFG only to get one and then have to log is not good business.

Does this change address class balance? Nope, not one damn bit.

Do I think Verant is doing this as part of class balance issues? Nope, not at all. As dense as I think they are, they arent that silly.. ok yes they are, but I dont see this as that issue. If anything its a class balance for nonporters. Really its just good consumerism and business that is needed as they continue to lose subscribers month after month.

Will people still be able to port around for cash? Sure, but it will be in more remote locations than all over now. Thats what bind is for if you are one that want to still do that or on our server /join port.

One of the biggest complaints I have heard from friends and strangers since day 1 is the travel aspects and spending an hour just to get together to start a hunt somewhere. That sucked and still does suck in some locations. Heading to Luclin from all over Velious and Kunark to meet up at Ssra still sucks big wind. However, this seems more to be a business decision based on consumer feedback and making the world more casual gamer friendly. Thats a good thing. (tm)

SilleyEskimo
07-09-2002, 08:42 AM
This whole issue reminds me of when our first healing upgrades were in the works and some clerics stopped in to discuss the matter. No matter how much you tell them it wil not effect thier grouping ability, certian people just refuse to see anything other than the destruction of thier class. People's perception frequently alters thier reality.

It's all quite silly to argue in the long run though :)

Fairweather Pure

Broomhilda
07-09-2002, 09:09 AM
For the record Ligge, that part wasnt aimed at you. Heh, i know you dont have FT15 and hang out w/ all NToV people in HS, but its just something i constantly see here thats very misleading. I do believe however the examples you gave of what a Druid can do arent the norms, and most Druids even at 60 couldnt do alot of those things, and shouldnt even try to be honest, unless their group wouldnt get mad at them over a CR. I just disagree in which the way you portrayed what we can do since its on the exxagerated side for most Druids to be honest.

I just really know what i experience day in and day out, and it seems to differ to what other people are saying. Maybe its a server difference, or people play in a sheltered environment. I know on my server everyone doing pickup groups doesnt know each other. I know reputation of how well you play your class doesnt mean jack in comparison to the abilities your class is perceived at contributing. The only time reputation really means anything is when your competing for a group against another person of the same class.

We're largely thought of as a secondary healing class, but you tell me which class can better support a cleric between us and Shamans? We already know by the data that we both have the same small heals, and they have a much better mana efficient big heal than we do. Slow>anything a Druid can contribute by itself. Nukes, evac, nor NR makeup for that. Maybe people dont realize how much slow trivializes encounters, but in my opinion its probably the single most powerful ability in the game. To think a minor regen, once in a blue moon evac, or a nuke that many other classes can do better in terms of damage output is equivalent to it is alittle off imo. We're on the lower end of the class desirability chain, definitely second to shamans in terms of secondary healers. Yes, this does have to do with pickup groups, and not raiding.

As far as raiding goes, i DONT want a new role. I enjoy our role, but would like either a healing upgrade(which would also improve our pickup group deficits), or a nuke upgrade. I really dont wanna see our current raid role changed.

btw Ligge, i still feel its a nerf because i'm not looking at it from the perspective you are that it was a huge thorn in our side. Sure, it got on my nerves to be asked for ports, still does for SOE's or even POTG at times. Doesnt mean i'll be glad to give them away)

Sorrun
07-09-2002, 09:25 AM
Nice post Liggie...

Lets follow some of the logic used to call this a nerf and see where we end up... I think a few druids here will be a bit surprised how it could turn out...

1) All classes get a slightly scaled down version of an ability normally held by only 1 or 2 classes... in this case, town to town ports which is a scaled down version of ports by druids and wizards.

2) Druids (and maybe wizards, havnet gone to Garrafe's yet) far and wide cry nerf, not directly but say that because they have indirectly lost something that makes them unique, it is still a nerf. Keep in mind, druids havent lost anything at all, same spell book, same spells.

3) After long arguments and discussions with Verant they finally agree and give druids what they want.. no pots, no town to town ports. Druids and wizzies rejoice.

4) Clerics around the world get smart... they realize druids have all along had scaled down versions of spells that were designed originally to make clerics unique. Hmm...

5) Clerics petition to remove any possible healing increase for druids and shaman since based on the same logic druids used it would mean a nerf to clerics... again, not directly, but indirectly... clerics have lost nothing, same spell book, same spells, but a bit of thier unique ability has been removed. (sound familiar? we just had this discussion a few months ago and tried to convince clerics the healing change wouldnt matter... interesting twist to the logic, IMO)

6) Verant, having already set a precident, agrees and decides not to implement any healing changes for druids or shaman and will investigate other possibilities as part of caster balance.

See where this is going? Calling this a nerf to druids is a pathetic attempt to spin yet another "woe are druids" story out of something that is actually a great change to the game. After reading Liggie's post, I tend to agree.. druids are not perfect and need some work but I think a growing problem at the DG is jumping on the nerf bandwagon and crying wolf at every little caster change that may or may not be part of caster balance.. we dont know...

I suggest a few of you back off a bit and rethink your reasons for not liking this change... I still stand by my original post... the only druids who have somewhat of a legit reason to not like this change are druids who routinly port for plat as a main source of income. And to be realistic, even then porting from places far from towns are still viable, maybe even more so now. Oh it will mean running more then 10 feet from each ring, but I have never been a fan of the druids who just do the port circuit and "/ooc porting for pp" at each stop.. reaks of laziness, IMO.

Cassea
07-09-2002, 09:26 AM
I feel about this the same way I feel about when they added a lower level egress and succor.

On one hand I was happy for the lower level Druids who would get it's benefit MUCH sooner yet on the other hand I felt that something I had worked my @#%$ off was just given away.

Does this make me a bad person?

I feel the same way about this change. I'm happy that it will help others, happy that it will mean less porting chores for me but in a small way sad that yet another thing my class was able to do that was unique (one of the few) was given away (starting with SOL and nexus and finishing with POP)

I remember when seeing someone in Wolfform meant a Druid cast that spell on them.

I remember when I joined a group and was told my job was to snare.

I remmember when people would camp the bridge in EK/NK to ask for SOW for the long run to Freeport or Qeynos.

I remmember in my late 30's working my @#%$ off so I could turn 49 and get some spells so I could group once again (rem that 10+ level dry spell before level 51 Sup Heal when we could not even heal? or pre 49 when we had no nukes that caused any damage?)

I remember making some cash at lower levels exchanging plat for silver and gold in exchange for a small fee due to my port ability.

I remember when I could not wait to buy the expansion and make levell in order to get my first true pet.

I remmeber how sad I was when the pet spell was so rare that people were asking tons of plat for it.

I rmemeber saving up every last plat to buy the pet spell and then how much I wasted my plat as the pet was so weak it could not hit anything that would give a level 55 exp.

I remmember so much more but the point is that we have not had any real upgrades in years - yes I said years and the few upgrades we have gotten were always tainted in some way.

Years ago we people used to list all our abilities and would put - 2nd best after it. I wonder how that would work now *smiles*

Ligge
07-09-2002, 09:33 AM
Wow, do I sound bitter about being a second tier guild or what? ;)

Sorry I just reread that and realized that all that just spilled out. Its still true, and does at least illustrate my place in the druid world of haves and have nots, but wasnt my intention. Guess that digression is for another thread some other day...

Cassea
07-09-2002, 09:42 AM
Sorrun,

Porting is a PRIME definition of the Druid and Wizard class.

Only Druids and Wizards could port.

From day one (and by Verants definition) Clerics, Shamen and Druids were the three healing classes.

Healing Classes - Not a Druid with Cleric abilities but part of our class.

Your example is apples to oranges.

A better example would be to give heals to a class that never had them.

As I said before....

ONLY Druids and Wizards could port. No other class could travel without the gate spell or by walking/boats.

I'm glad they are making it easier for other classes to travel but they are still giving a PRIME ability of two classes to everyone without giving anything in return.

Lets see what clerics say when they put in vendor healing stones in the game they allow all classes to buy their heals.

Lets see what the chanters say when they put in vendor clarity stones.

Lets see what the shamen/chanters say when they put in slow stones.

You get what I'm saying.

Hell.... to make it easier on eveyrone (I'm being silly now) lets just give all spells/abilities to everyone. After all we do want to make it easier for people to play don't we?

Is it not the very same logic saying that helping everyone travel faster is just as good as giving everyone free heals or free mana or you name it?

The same downtime people incure from running from point a to point b is occurred when I run out of mana and have to med or tanks have to sit and heal.

DOWNTIME IS DOWNTIME!

If you reduce travel downtime then reduce *ALL* downtime the same.

Tanks have travel/healing downtime
Chanters have healing/travel downtime
Clerics have travel/mana downtime
Druids have mana downtome
Wizards have mana/healing downtime
Bards have slight travel downtime
Shamen have mana downtime
Monks have healing/travel downtime downtime

I could go on. Everyone has downtime that is balanced with their abilities. When you remove downtime for a catagory in which a certain class was balanced you create an inbalance.

Druid are not balanced now - this will make it worse.

Sorrun
07-09-2002, 09:50 AM
Nah, that was good insight Liggie... like probably many other druids, I assumed you were in a large uber guild based on contributions you have made in the past and places you have been. Good to know you are just another working halfling like many of the rest of us...

It would suck to have players contantly leaving after you outfit them and train them to be good players... to bad their isnt a "Guild Ownership" tag on items so it could only be worn by members of that guild... :)

ElethiomelTimberfall
07-09-2002, 09:56 AM
>Lets see what clerics say when they put in vendor
>healing stones in the game they allow all classes to
>buy their heals.

Would seriously reduce tank solo downtime and wouldn't hurt clerics' desirability in groups one bit. Sounds like a good change. Make them lore or something, and only up to SHeal. I like it.

>Lets see what the chanters say when they put in vendor clarity stones.

Would help reduce pointless caster downtime when soloing, and wouldn't hurt enchanter group worthiness one bit, as I'm sure chanters like being crackwhores about like we like being port bitches. Sounds like a good change. I like it.

>You get what I'm saying.

Yes. You're still wrong.

This travel change is such a good thing for so many people, druids included. Verant should be castigated for not putting it in sooner, if anything.

There's plenty of stuff to complain about in EQ. Complaining about stuff like this (that is actually beneficial to everyone and hurts no one) is totally counterproductive.

Cassea
07-09-2002, 10:14 AM
Ok if you think they will love those changes so much lets see how brave you are *smiles*

Go propose that change on the Cleric and Chanter boards.

Then come back and post the link here. Heck I need a good laugh.

ElethiomelTimberfall
07-09-2002, 10:16 AM
Oh, there are plenty of whining clerics and chanters on their boards too. They sound almost as silly as, say, druids whining about better travel in EQ do here.

Aldarion Shard
07-09-2002, 10:18 AM
/sigh
/abrasive mode on

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE ??

no one is asking that they not do this. this change is good, it will help us all.

what we are asking is that since theyre giving ports to everyone now, they need to stop considering ports when balancing druids. YES, we deserve better heals now, or slows, or SOMETHING.

Broomhilda
07-09-2002, 10:20 AM
The big problem lies in the fact that the uber guilds require equipment that only the second tier guilds can provide them. Uber guilds for the most part arent going to help you get your Velious class armor or epics, they'll require that of their applicants before they join. So some individuals 'use' the second-tier guilds to that end, meanwhile, the secopnd tier guilds are striving to outfit their players so they can get stronger and move on to bigger mobs. Its just sad that this happens so often, and the cycle just repeats itself of people guild-jumping to become uber.

Heh, alot of people probably dont realize how much of an issue this can be, unless you happen to be in one of them second-tier guilds. Didnt mean to tangent, but had to comment :)

Cassea
07-09-2002, 10:26 AM
IMHO the real problem are the SOB's who "USE" guilds for their own purposes then toss them aside when they are asked to help or they can no longer leech from the guild.

Guild jumping has always been around. It's a character issue. Some people are just takers just like in real life.

Raise your hand if you have ever been in a guild in which members were lost a short time after they obtained their epic.

Ligge
07-09-2002, 10:33 AM
lol /abrasive mode on

Now that was funny :)

Thanks Sorrun. I am definitely much more on par with playtimes and equipment with your average level 60 druid than I am with some of DGs Afterlife and Triton members. I just fight real hard to make sure we get to see as much as Norrath as our numbers and varied schedules allow.

Fennin doesnt have many of their top guilds with a presence here. Most of those that do are really good people and they know exactly how I feel about some of their other members. *snicker*

We actually bumped our membership requirements to 54 recently to stop that vicious cycle of always having to go back and do planar, epic, and Kael armor trips. What happened? Applications came to a screeching hault. I guess thats good and bad, we now get the people that are looking for a home and no longer get those that are looking for a lift up.

Ok Broom and I are gonna take over this thread with secondtier/ourserver crap soon I can see. Probably something I should start in another thread anyway as I wouldnt mind seeing what others think... ok I think I will do that.

Anyway, I have said all I think I can say on this subject anyway. :)

Like Sorrun said earlier, take a step back and some may see it as others do. I do see the point some of you are making, I just think the benefit far outweighs any negative so I am excited about it. I am pretty happy about this and maybe, just maybe, with a little luck VI will throw us a bone in the balance issues as we all do agree we need that no matter what.

Broomhilda
07-09-2002, 10:34 AM
"Oh, there are plenty of whining clerics and chanters on their boards too. They sound almost as silly as, say, druids whining about better travel in EQ do here"


You know your right. I mean we should give all of our abilities to everybody since it'll make EQ easier on them. Lets give them SOE, Druid ring ports, snare, regens, etc. I mean other classes cant solo, and i know tons of people who quit their class or EQ because the class they chose was so interdependant. Giving say tanks snare, sow, and Natues Recovery would be a step in the right direction. While we're at it might as well give clerics our roots and dots. Hmm, and i really think mages could use snare, and maybe ROTG and Natures Touch as well =)

This obviously doesnt nerf anyone, Druids havent lost anything. Its just allowing others a more enjoyable gaming experience ;)

ElethiomelTimberfall
07-09-2002, 10:55 AM
Please. The firepots being active "give away" about as much of our abilities as the soulbinders do. Are you against them too?

Quelm
07-09-2002, 11:04 AM
This change is going to make a lot of people happy. It is pretty selfish IMO to view this as an insult directed at druids. The game is going to change for the better for a lot of folks, and all some of us can do is whine? The total effect of PoP is yet to be seen. Until it is, crying wolf could prove to be a bit embarassing. "FU VI, FU! Oh. really? no kidding? ok, errr, thanks. *blush*"

Druids rock in xp groups! Broom, start pulling :) Any level 60 with half a clue can pull in a lot of dungeons. In fact, it makes sense for non-melees to pull if you're fighting non-stop. Outdoors we make awesome pullers. Xp groups are the ideal situation for many of our low-impact, higher-efficiency spells. Regrowth, NR, Damage Shields (yes, they're still good), PotG are the big ones. Use Moonfire / Wildfire, Blizzard sometimes, Epic / WD / BoR for longer fights and you'll be dealing a respectable amount of damage, given enough mana. Also, if you find yourself fighting for the elusive "last spot" in a group too often, start your own groups. Druid + 1 of {clr, shm, enc, bard} = sufficient backbone for an exp group. Add 3 or 4 of any class and you're in great shape for the night.

Travel and safe travel are two different things. Druids can still SoE themselves, cast fixed invis, and rely on myriad techniques for shaking (or killing) adds. We can gate or egress (or exodus!) if things get really bad. We can cast harmony, heal ourselves quickly, and buff resists if there's a gauntlet that needs running.

Anyway, I believe in speaking up in defense of the druid class, but I don't think now is the time.

-Quelm

Araxx
07-09-2002, 11:05 AM
I think wizzies are gonna quit the game because now everyone can port better than them they are not needed in a group...

Hell, giving a cleric, shaman, or even (/boggle) mages gate is already the beginning of the end for us druids. How dare Verant give them a port to their bind! That should only be accomplished after dying!! Not at will! Sheesh!

My advice?
Sit and wait. We'll still get tons of port requests to places like SF and EJ... Then we can all go solo because we are all useless in groups with people having easy access to ports...
(btw, I'm being SARCASTIC)

Ciao for now!

Menlaiene
07-09-2002, 11:10 AM
Well there are a lot of interesting arguments here. And for those of you who are upset about this, I can totally see your point of view. But since I am interested in grouping/raiding, and since being a port bitch does not get me anywhere near there, I'm glad to give my porting abilities away to all IF I'm compensated with other abilities....namely heals that don't suck @#%$... I think that this change will finally allow VI to see that sow/ports are irrelevant to balancing druids, since anyone has access to them. I, for one, am sick and tired of being told that since I have sow/ports, it's fair that I am not desired in groups, except as a last resort when other classes cannot be found, period. So I can get to the hunting spot really fast, yay, and then sit at the zone line LFG. Ive spent more time LFG since I hit 51 than actually being in a pickup group. Yeah a level 60 druid might be desirable but not a level 51 using a gimp version of a level 34 healing spell, with no self mana regen whatsoever. Some of you say you get groups based on your skill, well I'm sorry that just doesn't happen on my server, there are so many players and even though I've grouped almost always since level 5 I doubt many people remember me. I don't remember most of the people I've grouped with either. I can't do much without mana regen and I rarely get a chance to prove myself in pickup groups. For better or worse, it is about what you can offer the group with your spells unless you are grouping with friends. That is the reality I have to face.

To those of you who say that travel should be more available because it makes the game unplayable and not fun for so many...well I understand this perspective, but what about the cleric monopoly on healing? I think that hurts just as many people. Being in a smaller guild, recruiting and keeping clerics is hard as hell because the clerics all go to the uber guilds. There are never enough clerics because their monopoly requires them to be present in such rediculous numbers. We all suffer because of this. Yet when druids ask for better heals, since we are often given the healing role since we lack other class-defining abilities, (not even complete heal, just SOMETHING even half as effective as what clerics have), we get stomped on because healing is the "cleric's job." Well last time I checked there were 3 priest classes....now why should only ONE class out of 15 have the lockdown on healing, an ability absolutely essential to gameplay? I have no problem with class interdependency but to have ONE class needed (not only one of them, but often great numbers) to do ANYTHING besides a routine exp grind in an easy zone with a slower is going too far. Every other class is substitutable, hell my guild has a paladin as MT for almost everything unless we happen to be raiding with a 60 warrior...

I think making the game more player-friendly and enjoyable involves a lot more than travel, but travel is all that is being given away. I am in favor of it being given away; the world is much much bigger and hunting destinations more remote...and I'm tired of being told I should give up my play time to port because other players' time is more valuable than mine.

Menlaiene Ravenswood
51 Wanderer
Veeshan

Cassea
07-09-2002, 11:11 AM
I agree we should wait and see Aarxx but I was shocked to see so many Druids here thanking Verant for giving away yet another of our core abilities.

Until I see Verant make a public statement saying that Porting is not longer considered a Prime Druid Ability I will defend what little unique abilities we still have.

ElethiomelTimberfall
07-09-2002, 11:19 AM
If you honestly think that turning the firepots on is giving away a druid core ability, then it is pretty clear that further attempts to communicate with you are rather pointless.

FyyrLuStorm
07-09-2002, 11:21 AM
I still remember that line from the old "Official Guide to EQ" regarding Druids...

"Wizards go BOOM,,,but Druids go everywhere"

Talyena Trueheart
07-09-2002, 11:27 AM
"If you honestly think that turning the firepots on is giving away a druid core ability, then it is pretty clear that further attempts to communicate with you are rather pointless."

Then why don't you enlighten us to the druid core abilities oh wise one?

ElethiomelTimberfall
07-09-2002, 11:37 AM
News flash: we don't have any. We never have. We are really good at doing lots of things, but best at none, and we don't do anything unique. This is our "class defining ability". We aren't best at anything (except maybe soloing, or being fun to play), but we're damn good at a lot of things.

This should be no surprise, it's always been this way. It's what makes druids such an excellent class.

Rohkit
07-09-2002, 12:02 PM
No, porting is not a "class defining" ability for us.

It IS a "class balancing" ability.

I.E., one of the reasons we never got better heals, better DoTs, slow/haste, more stat buffs, etc was because we had group & self ports while other classes did not. It was one of the factors taken into consideration when it was decided not to give us those other things.

With the implementation of free ports for all, we need to be re-balanced with our teleporting abilities reduced or eliminated as considerations in our "balance". We lose an advantage, we need to gain a new one, or lose a disadvantage.

Cassea
07-09-2002, 12:07 PM
That's not true.

In the beginning we were...

1 of 2 sow classes now 1 of 15
1 of 3 snare classes now 1 of 6?
1 of 2 port classes now 1 of 2 (port being rendered unneeded)
1 of 2 DS classes now 1 of 6?
1 of 3 healing classes now 1 of 4
1 of 2 harmony classes
1 of 2 regen classes now 1 of 15

Did I miss any?

Now we were never the "sole" in any class but our special abilities were unique to 1 or 2 other classes.

Tiane
07-09-2002, 12:49 PM
I dont think anyone here is seriously asking them NOT to put in free city hopping for all. So just drop that right now, it's spurious. Not to mention insulting to think that any druid who has played post luclin doesnt know what it's like to have to run across 5-6 zones to get somewhere....

The POINT is what has been said many times... It was an ability we had, it was in the "Advantages to being a druid" column on the class balance list. There were a number of things in that column. A lot of them have been crossed off due to irrelevence, or were made obsolete by various factors such as giving the ability away to everyone else.

The "Disadvantages to being a druid" column is also there. And that hasnt changed much at all. Nearly every other class has had a bunch of things crossed off this column. And with PoP, they can cross off "Cannot port, difficulty in travelling"

----

I'm NOT debating the idea of travel as a means of time investment in EQ or in any MMORPG. The FACT is that in EQ druids HAVE PAID FOR THE ABILITY TO TRAVEL QUICKLY by being 2nd best or worse in every other area. We are these days lucky to be 2nd best in any particular skill, but that doesnt change the fact that we still had the ability to port, which in EQ meant something. You dont have to like the fact that travel did take time, but it did. Now come pop, that time will be slashed... and one of the things druids have paid for, for so long, becomes commonplace.

Tia

Miss Foxfyre
07-09-2002, 01:18 PM
Tudamorf hit the nail on the head. A lot of us started druids to have the ability to port and travel quickly, so don't go denying it. Ports were definitely one of the main reasons I stopped playing an enchanter and a bard twink to level a druid main character.

Every other class has gotten its path to usefulness in the endgame, something that players eventually get to if they keep playing long enough, but a few classes are stuck with low desirability for groups and raids. Druids are one of them. For every stage of watering down, VI hasn't really given the druid class any particular focus or a specialty or two to make up for loss of "convenience."

The funny thing about conveniences is they're taken for granted until they're gone. So what's VI going to do to balance out this erosion of unique abilities? Because as the plan stands, PoP promises to make travel easier and eliminate certain hassles, so what are you going to do for druids and wizards to keep PoP from reducing their desirability? I certainly don't want to hear excuses.

gloryseq
07-09-2002, 01:44 PM
They are saying new spells, so let's hope they include something better than group shields lol. I ordered my PoP yesterday and am hoping I get my money worth. Also, let's hope the new spells are not even rarer drops than the ''new'' Luclin and "old" Velious spells. Good grief, obtaining a spell as low level as improved camo is outrageous. For some reason, druid spell drop rate stinks for the most part. Least the most useful spells.

Talyena Trueheart
07-09-2002, 01:46 PM
Okay, there seem to be two trains of thought here. One is porting is a core ability of the druid. Since only two classes can port, I would have to agree here. The other is that versitility is our core ability. Okay, I can buy that too, but the skills that make us versitile are then our core abilities.

So, if porting is a core ability and it will now become mostly meaningless, what will we get to compensate us for the loss? We have been constantly told we were never to be the best at anything because we had ports and sows, but now that everyone can increase run speed easily enough, and port on their own, why are we being held back?

But, if versitility is our defining role, why are we being held back now that every class can become as versitile as us? Between porting from city to city, and aa abilities that allow you to run faster even indoors, what do we get in return?

Either way, our usefulness (what little there was) is slowly being taken away even as other classes are gaining more and more? Heck, even classes that couldn't solo before can solo now, but our soloing spots and techniques are being nerfed constantly.

AbbiRhode
07-09-2002, 02:20 PM
I rarely post here but I am a constant reader.

I decided to post when I saw all the druid's positive commments regarding making it easier fo everybody to travel in Norrah.

For what it is worth I really dont care one way or the other about the travel being made easier for all - but for sure I made a druid when EQ started because of the flexibility and easiness of travelling.

I now know after making it to 59 (a few squirts from 60 - with about 50% soloing and 50% guild grouping) that my druid's worth to groups compared to my other chars - Cleric, Warrior and Enchanter - all twinked by my first and true love druid - is way down the totem pole.

Ok I made the druid and accepted and benefited from the flexibility and I suppose some will say I make up for it now with the lack of worth in the later stages.

I do not accept this as a status quo however, and I expect that sometime soon I will cancel my three accounts and leave EQ for good if druid's are not balanced once and for all.

I must say that for a long time I have despised the company and its poor representatives (to players) that have been in place and it's overall attitude to the game. I can understand their business reasons for many decisions, the switches and about faces they have made over the years some driven - I am glad to say by competition - and yes they have got better as time has gone by.

However when you play for 3 plus years and invest so much time (and money!) in each character and then have that investment made more worthless which each 'shadow nerf' etc then the only recourse for an individual who feels strongly enough about the situation is either complain on the various vehicles/boards to attempt to change the situation or to stop paying for the unsatisfactory game. I regret that so many of my previous friends in EQ have made the latter choice.

I am amazed at the number of druids here who ignore the weakening of the value of druids in all the ways described many times previously and console themselves by saying how much they won't miss the various aspects of the druids capabilities that are being shared around. Or how the attributes are non defining. Every one of the attributes were class defining and they have slowly been whittled away.

Is it not in all druids interest to at least show Verant that we value all the attributes we currently have and in fact require more or upgrades right now to balance us against other classes.

I wonder at the real level of some of the people posting here that they do not realise this yet. Or whether they are mainly non social (as far as grouping goes) - probably happy to just learn tradeskills and be a second class citizen when it comes to raids at the higher level.

Anyway put me down for a vote (request) for some balancing addition to compensate for yet another PROPOSED 'shadow nerf'.

Abbi

Miss Foxfyre
07-09-2002, 03:58 PM
I wonder at the real level of some of the people posting here that they do not realise this yet. Or whether they are mainly non social (as far as grouping goes) - probably happy to just learn tradeskills and be a second class citizen when it comes to raids at the higher level.

/shrug

If you don't want to port for plat or be bothered for ports, it's easy enough to stay role-play, anon, or say no.

Some druids make it their business to run taxi services all day and night, so who am I to wish for the end of porting as we know it? Just because I don't run a portal service? Heh, no.

On the other hand you can't put down players whose main interests are tradeskills and not raiding. Even tradeskillers need ports every so often. :D

ElethiomelTimberfall
07-09-2002, 04:37 PM
I still find amusing the assumption that turning on the firepots will bring about the end of porting as we know it.

Which firepot would you be taking to Seb, again? To Chardok? To ToV?

And, more importantly, which would you be taking *out*?

All that this will do is make travel easier for the vast majority of people. It's not taking anything away from us that is meaningful. It does not render our Circle spells useless. It might make a dent in being able to port for cash in the mid levels, but get over it. Better money hunting anyway.

Oldoaktree
07-09-2002, 05:06 PM
Further on that...

A woodelf wants to go to CT. Will he go to Oggok? Troll town?

tetrian corbec
07-09-2002, 05:49 PM
ínvis and click, dont see the problem there :)

Oldoaktree
07-09-2002, 05:51 PM
Assuming whatever this is is not a cast spell, yes.

However, even a clicky proc is a cast which will break invis. And illusions don't survive zoning.

So it all comes down to exactly how these things work.

As a druid, I have never tried the pot room so I just don't know how you come through. If you can invis then click there I suppose that is a good example.

Cassea
07-09-2002, 06:52 PM
Nobody is saying that there will be a ort to every zone but close enough that you can run for a few mins to the location you need.

Last time I check as a Druid wanting to go to Chardok I had to port to SF and run the rest of the way.

People still do not seem to understand that this, take alone, is not such a big deal but overall, taken with all the other little nerfs it adds up to one HUGE HUGE nerf.

Do you see how much clerics defend their CH? They do not want anyoen to infringe on what they consider their role in any way.

Why are we so easy and roll over again and again?

Other classes have had sit-ins and other such attention getters to get Verants attention.

Can we at least agree on one thing and that the Druid class is no longer what it once was?

Either others classes have been raised up while leaving us behind or they have directly nerfed us.

It's kinda funny that solo ability is such a catch-22.

Druids are less desirable in groups so many are forced to solo yet solo ability is the reason Verant does not give us better group abilities.

Firemynd
07-09-2002, 07:33 PM
I find it amusing that so many feel opressed because of port beggars. Yes, many players have come to believe that druids are a public transportation service; they see druids selling ports all the time in almost every high-traffic zone, so they assume that ALL druids are open for port business. But I honestly don't understand why some druids can't just politely decline ("I'm hunting atm" ... "not porting right now" ... "I'm busy but thanks for the offer" ... "waiting on a friend" ... etc ).

If polity isn't your strongsuit, or you just aren't willing to say no, then turn on /role. Your friends and guildmates will still know your level and class, and will certainly keep you in mind if they're planning an impromptu event. How ever you choose to handle port requests, simply realize that you're under no obligation to port others, nor are you required to give any explanations when you don't wish to.

With all that in mind, is it really appropriate for Verant to give all classes an easy way to travel to/from any city? I'd say in a roleplaying sense, they're trivializing a very powerful magical ability -- teleportation!! -- and in that respect, it leaves a bad taste. In a consumer sense, it reduces downtime for players and makes travel easy, but also reduces the chance that much content and zones in-between cities will be experienced, and many hunting areas may become like Stonebrunt ... barren wastelands of "what could have been."

As for class interdependence, frankly I'd like to see ALL classes more solo-capable; BUT until Verant finds a way to decrease dependence on the "key" classes (clerics, shamans, chanters, warriors) for raiding, and until Verant gives druids a specialist ability for high level grouping/raiding, I WANT people to have SOME sense that druids (as a class -- not as your best friend sees you) are needed, even if it's not in the most glamorous capacity. There are only two out of fifteen classes with group porting abilities, so yes, like it or not, porting qualifies as one of our most class-defining roles.

Therefore I wholeheartedly agree with MF. If Verant gives porting to other classes, even if just to cities, I want the Druid class to receive something in compensation. This class has indeed been left behind many times when other classes saw improvements, and it desperately needs a unique role.

~Firemynd

Cobbyl
07-09-2002, 09:28 PM
I find it amusing that so many feel opressed because of port beggars. Yes, many players have come to believe that druids are a public transportation service; they see druids selling ports all the time in almost every high-traffic zone, so they assume that ALL druids are open for port business. But I honestly don't understand why some druids can't just politely decline ("I'm hunting atm" ... "not porting right now" ... "I'm busy but thanks for the offer" ... "waiting on a friend" ... etc ).
Dammit, I wish I had logs of this, but I'll go from memory...

I'm sitting in the Bazaar, cleaning my bank or some such. A level 19 warrior (here after known as "Beggar") has been shouting for a port to Butcherblock for the last 20 minutes, repeating the same message every 30 seconds,"ned (sic) port to bb plz." I made the mistake of saying that if he would have run 1 zone over and sat at a pad for ~10 minutes, he would probably be there already.

Beggar shouts,'wht class r u'
I shout,'...druid'
Beggar tells me,'ned port to bb plz'
I tell Beggar,'Sorry, bud, busy at the moment <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o"> \'
Beggar tells me,'u have to port me'
I tell Beggar,'How do ya figure?'
Beggar tells me,'friend and i are going to raid and u have to'
I tell Beggar,'Uh...why do I have to port you again? Musta slipped my mind <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/embarassed.gif ALT=":o"> P'
Beggar tells me,' ur a drood its ur job'

ur a drood its ur job

I'm sorry, I'm not a taxi. Even with /role on, you know how many people sit at port down spots and wait for a druid to appear. If I port into WC, on average there will be 5-15 people facing the "touch down" point. Those people, recognizing me as a druid, will all immediately send me tells.

"can u port me plz?"
"hey, can i get a port to ej"
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah
Blah

Like I've been saying before, I personally regard the ability to port as a nuisance, as do more than a few druids I can assure you. Good riddance I say.

Aldarion Shard
07-09-2002, 10:15 PM
ok this has to be said.

ive been arguing that it doesnt even matter if porting is a factor in groups, since its a factor in overall gameplay and therefor in class balance.

but the fact remains YES it is a HUGE asset in groups. we're in, say, The Hole. its camped. ok, lets port to lavastorm and do efreeti in Sol B. thats camped too. lets do KC. etc.

if groups without wizards/druids are now able to just firepot from city to nexu to city to PoK to city, etc, this advantage is gone.

no, its not a direct replacement and it doesnt replace evacs at all.

but it DOES make a MAJOR MAJOR DIFFERENCE in how easy it is for groups to pick up and move to the next dungeon.

/em checks the last item off the list of reasons to play a druid

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-09-2002, 10:33 PM
News flash: we don't have any. We never have. We are really good at doing lots of things, but best at none, and we don't do anything unique. This is our "class defining ability". We aren't best at anything (except maybe soloing, or being fun to play), but we're damn good at a lot of things.

This should be no surprise, it's always been this way. It's what makes druids such an excellent class.

Newsflash: We haven't been damned good at a lot of things in some time now. Hence the frustration you see rampant here.

Yes I'm pissed that they took one of class "defining" abilitities and are handing it out willy nilly, when I can't even get a simple @#%$ healing upgrade or a cold debuff from Verant.

If you don't think our ports were class defining, you are delusional. Until the advent of Translocates and then the debacle which is Luclin, Druids were considered the premier porters. We were the class originally with the ability and our ports went to more useful places.

Now we're just gimps.

Firemynd
07-09-2002, 10:47 PM
" I'm sorry, I'm not a taxi. Even with /role on, you know how many people sit at port down spots and wait for a druid to appear. If I port into WC, on average there will be 5-15 people facing the "touch down" point. Those people, recognizing me as a druid, will all immediately send me tells."

You can thank Verant for giving us the /ttell command.. otherwise half those people would mistell at least once when they typed your name incorrectly. :)

I've been hit left and right with requests upon porting into busier spots like WC and GD, so I know exactly where you're coming from. But for the life of me, I can't figure out why you let it bother you so much. You don't have to pay attention to the tells, and certainly should ignore those folks who get indignant about it when you don't port them.

However, I'd bet if this was a thread about whether druids "should" port others around, you'd be telling us that you tend to ignore the rude people, sometimes reply that you're busy at the moment, and sometimes honor a polite request -- especially when that person is doing a CR or is just down on his/her luck.

There will always be "beggars" and there will always be "rude" people to encounter. This is a game, and some of its players will always feel that hiding behind an avatar allows them behavior they wouldn't ever get away with in real life. Take those people with a grain of salt ... or if they're *really* obnoxious just invite them to group, sow them, and port them to Iceclad. The long run across snow to a more populated zone might give them a chance to errr... "cool" off ... and approach the next druid/wiz with a little more courtesy. ;)

~Firemynd

xvjoesph
07-10-2002, 01:33 AM
I understand that, but even when my druid was lvl 34 and didn't have all his spells. The way he made the money to buy them was from ports. I know it seems bad but hey when you need the money to get stuff or spells. Cause VI made the druid spells more expensive. Then they need to have a reasonable way to gain money and porting is that. up till like lvl 40 when you can kite giants and gain money it was my only sorce of income. When my druid first hit lvl 50 till 55 the ONLY groups that took him were the ones that used the port option. I have other chars like my cleric, enc, ranger, rouge, necro. Out of all of them my druid is the hardest to get a group (54+). And the whole beg for ports exspecially if there a zone away I make comments like "Thats the eppidamy of lazyness not willing to walk a zone or two". Verant giving the port to other chars is not only taking the druid/wizzie ability. But also the fun when my druid turn lvl 14 and had sow. He ran from kel to the gnome town (forgot the name), all the way back and then from there to bb , then freeport, then to qeynos, Granted it wasn't the smartest but it was probably on of the funnest thing in the game. Most of my time unless I'm under time restrant or to far I walk using SOE to the place I want to go. I think all verant has to say to other classes is tuff luck you got legs and plat make the most out of it and start compinsation the druids for the abilitys they already lost.


Tundil "Master of all, owner of none"lvl 57 druid

elgadol
07-10-2002, 04:02 AM
IF the PoP ports are like the fire pots you can invis before you click then, and it holds over in zoning.
So good for druids with dependable invises.

As for ports beggars, I'm lucky I guess, I may get asked once a night if that, and I am NEVER on anon, and since lvl 55 I havent accepted pp for ports, KEI me and I'm your b*tch for life, but no money please.
If I get asked I say just what the above people mentioned "sorry not porting atm", "Just got here and not leaving yet", etc. If people are smart they wont get rude cos then, of course, they get no port.
I've never had someone say I MUST port them, I usually get "ok thanks for responding" as I imagine most druids just ignore them.
The PoP ports is a slight nerf for us, I agree, but its a boon for the game in respect to time constraints.
And I dont mind it. Now give me a better heal :)

Trevize
07-10-2002, 06:46 AM
I just don't care anymore.

Kbern
07-10-2002, 07:21 AM
I am with Trevize on this one.

Just getting so old...thats why I play my twinks much more now.

Balise
07-10-2002, 07:39 AM
At the begining...

Druids = good at doing a variety of things

Some classes = Great at doing one/two things and have some variety in other spells (but not good at them)

Rest = Excellent (note levels: good, great, excellent) at doing one/two things and very little variety in other spells (but not good at them.


EQ Now...

Some classes (-druid) = excellent at doing one/two things and have a good variety of other spells/abilities/equip with clicks that they can perform well enough.

Rest (-druid) = God like (just needed a term better then excellent) in one/two abilities and a variety of other spells/abilities/equip with clicks that they can perform well enough.

Druid = have a good variety of spells/abilities/equip with clicks that they can perform well enough (but variety has not changed since pretty much day 1).

- - - - - - - - - -

Notice that the variety of spells/abilities/equip with clicks has improved in every class and in all but a druid, improved their variety of what they bring to the table. Also every class has become better at what they specialize in to one degree or another with the sequence of upgrades/expansions.

Druids did not have one thing they specialized in so we did not specifically improve drastically in any area. Our strength was in our varietability of skills we brought to the table. Now as other classes increased in their varietability the druid subsequently got a little bit stronger (using this PoP porting thing we can say we can now travel even faster, by having more port destinations/vehicles) but the change to a druids power/skill set is not Nearly as drastic as it is to a class without ports in the first place.

to put it in numbers...

Begining of EQ we had a 1 to 10 chart rating for level of effectiveness:

Druid = 5 in all their areas

Other classes = 10 in their specialty(ies) and 1 in whatever else they had.

Now in EQ we use a 1 to 15 chart rating because of the increase in a classes specialty ability:

Druid = 5 to 8 in all their areas

Other classes = 15 in their specialty(ies) and 2 to 5 in whatever else they have.


We have two groups arguing in this thread, one saying that this PoP porting change is a boon to everyone in EQ and one saying that the druid's variety of skills it brings to the table is no longer and effective argument to say we are balanced...

BOTH of these groups are right and should not be arguing. The only crossover in beliefs that is occuring here is when one group slips into bitterness and grazes the top of what the other group is trying to defend.

In 90% of the threads here I see both groups arguing For the PoP pot ports change. I only see 50% arguing that a druid's variety means 30% of what it used to value at the begining of EQ, the other 50% is not bothering to comment on it because they do not see that it has entered the arguement.

I apologize if I confused anyone there with my analogies and numbers that I pulled out of the air to compare, but I was trying to just illustrate a point in the best way I could and I hope whoever read it got the general gist and doesnt get hung up on specifics.

I can say that this port change is a good thing for EQ and a boost to all classes (in different degrees) and I can Also say that a druid doesnt bring nearly half as much to a group as they used to back when EQ came out, not because we were changed as a class, but because the other classes were changed and we got left behind in the changes.

I dont really see anyone disagreeing with my views in this thread and I fail to see why everyone else is not seeing the same thing.

Miss Foxfyre
07-10-2002, 08:20 AM
First of all, it's spelled "epitome," not "eppidamy." :D


Like I've been saying before, I personally regard the ability to port as a nuisance, as do more than a few druids I can assure you. Good riddance I say.

Good riddance to all your ring spells too?
So in all your leveling days, you never once liked the ability to go from zone to zone pretty easily at will?

I'm kind of surprised by this hardline denial here. I don't port for plat, but again, why would I favor the elimination of all porting abilities? Because I don't run a taxi service? NO. I still enjoy the ability to travel at will on my druid.

Cassea
07-10-2002, 10:20 AM
The BIG problem with text based communication is that we cannot hear the tone of a persons voice nor can we see their facial expression.

Thus we cannot read sarcasm or detect when someone is speaking emotionally or just being silly.

I try to use *smiles* or :) when I am being silly or sarcastic to help readers but emotion is very hard to detect.

This is an emotional issue and as such I can detect that much of what has been posted (myself included) was emotion and lacking in objectivity. (This is why I started another thread called Druid Abilities)

When people feel backed into a corner or put on the spot they often lash out and say something they may later regret or what might seem silly when read outside the heat of the moment.

Saying that someone who plays a Druid had no idea that they could port when they picked the class or that you could live without ports is just a bit silly *smiles*

Maybe when the game was brand new and few knew about the classes and few web pages were up but in the last few years everyone knows the basics of each class or at least knows the prime draws to each class.

I've said enough. Please forgive and silly posts I have made and I'll overlook yours *wink*

*smiles*

Twiddlewood
07-11-2002, 07:46 AM
"and I can Also say that a druid doesnt bring nearly half as much to a group as they used to back when EQ came out, not because we were changed as a class, but because the other classes were changed and we got left behind in the changes."

Damn that says it all for me....

The Wood Familia
Thistle,Twirl & Twisted

Bern Fizzlesticks
07-11-2002, 08:20 AM
I feel like I have never been better to what I bring to my parties and raids. I think with AXP it has really bolstered being a druid.

Cassea
07-11-2002, 09:58 AM
"A Group" is far far far different than "A Raid"

In a group I agree that besides needing a slightly better heal we are fine.

The real issue was, is and always will be (till it's addressed) the high end 55+ raid game in which, after the first Druid or two, we have no role.

Kind and understanding raid leaders will assign us little "side" tasks like: Druid #1 keep chanter #1 alive and Druid #2 heal the clerics.

So it seems we are turning into personal bodyguards on raids now. During the raid we have to safe out mana "in case" we need to heal are assigned player so we sit in the back and watch (much like we do when we are not assigned to protect someone LOL)

Please do not mix up the three:

1. Solo - We're great
2. Group - We're good
3. Raid - We're either the worst class or the next to it

add to this:

1. Levels 1-59 - Solo/Group/Raid
2. Level 60 - Group/Raid (yes we can still solo for aa points)

The longer you play the more (many not all LOL) you raid. The more you raid the more you see the problem with Druids.

Kulothar
07-12-2002, 05:43 AM
(for those that are not good at noticing.. Sarcasm on*)

Well I think that any class that has a unique ability is selfish and anti social. They are depriving someone that plays another class of their unique area of injoying EQ. Verant should allow all the classes to use the other classes abilitys whenever it would make the game more fun for them.. A wizzy that could Run at SoW speed to Kite should be able to FD when he goes OOM and the mob catches him. The cleric should be able to go invis and CoH an Enchanter to him when he needs clarity and is too busy to cast it on himself. Down with specialization!!.. I want that uber Necro Pet, FD, CH, C3 mez, charm and an AC and weapons so I can solo Tormax.

(Sorry, tired and had to do this.. Sarcasm off* please return the stewardess to her original upright possition)

ccLothar
07-12-2002, 12:03 PM
Ya, so I don't care any more either but the deciding factor for creating my Druid was mobility and self reliance on getting around. ...could have made a Ranger and been nearly as mobile.

Kalinn
07-12-2002, 12:17 PM
i hadnt even read this thread until today, and im pretty damn shocked and dismayed to see whats happening with PoP.

i LIKE that other people will be able to get around rather than pester me all the time. thats fine and dandy.

but i dont like that one of the major reasons i made a druid rather than any other class, that ability to port (myself, not others) and shorten my travel distances, is suddenly being handed to other classes. and not just one class, all of em, for FREE!

its the equivalent of the shaman's slow, or the clerics ch, or the enchanters mez, being handed out to every other class.

forget about this being something we bring to a group or raid, who cares..... instead care that this takes one of your core abilities and makes it less of an ability.

find me one of those damn clerics that said they'd trade their CH for our ports.... sure, i'll trade ya now *snicker*

Tuved Stormrunner
07-12-2002, 12:28 PM
They are trying to make the game as easy as possible for the 1 to 20 set because as they recently admitted in an interview (it's on casters realm right now) they have their highest attrition rates from the 1 to 20 set. They want to keep that set addicted and loose the attrition cause that means more $$$$$ which is the bottom line for them.

Having any newb be able to port everywhere for free will further add to the demise of the original EQ experience. I remember as a young young druid before I got my cool port spells, running, invis all the way from gfay to NK just to buy my combine scimitar that I had finally saved up 45pp for. It ranks still as probablly one of the most exciting evenings I've ever had in eq.

They are so concerned about loosing potential revenue cause the game is a little challanging that they will continue to turn it into a spoon feeding experience for the IQ deficient masses out there with credit cards. I'm sure this is a direct order from the SOE brass and the developers have no choice but to maximize the bottom line.

Triena Twobooks
07-12-2002, 05:42 PM
At lvl 5 i did a run from the Qeynos area to Freeport for kicks when i bought the camo spell, the world was so BIG and mistererious then, ports rob the world of its size and epic adventure, especialy for the youngins.

On the upside no one will again be able to point at a druid and say that we suck in raids and get ports as compensation.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Triena Twobooks
59 Druid O'Xev

Araxx
07-13-2002, 05:44 AM
I posted the below info in a separate message because this one was already too long and it would take too many people too long to read all the messages. Sobe has asked me to post it here so here goes:

Taken from Caster's Realm:

We're focusing on the high-end player, but we're throwing in some things that'll make life easier for low-level players and help them get around and experience content. We're doing that with the portal system that we're adding to the Plane of Knowledge. That first plane will be available to players of all level and they can use it to get around from every newbie city to every other newbie city. It'll help them determine whether or not they like their race-class combination, because they'll be exposed to other areas quicker.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do we consider Newbie towns then?
What do we consider high level towns?

Ciao for now!

Sobe Silvertree
07-13-2002, 05:52 AM
Possibly Newbie towns are - Starting cities for new characters?

High Level towns are those like Sanc Seru?

Cassea
07-13-2002, 06:23 AM
The following are starting cities which will have newbie players:

Ak'Anon
Cabilis
Erudin
Felwithe
Freeport
Grobb
Halas
Kaladim
Kelethin
Neriak
Oggok
Paineel
Qeynos
Rivervale
Surefall
Shar Vahl

Add to it (if you wish) the Current Nexus ports

FyyrLuStorm
07-13-2002, 06:34 AM
Is SFG considered a city?, there is no bank there.

Cassea
07-13-2002, 06:37 AM
SFG is the starting point for some rangers. I suppose that Qeynos is close enough that they might skip SFG but it is a starting point for some so I listed it.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
07-13-2002, 08:12 AM
SFG and Qeynos are considered the same city for all intents and purposes.

NilweanTP
07-13-2002, 08:19 AM
In the E3 video, they said The Nexus and The Great Divide would be included

Batou062671
07-13-2002, 08:41 AM
At first, I was happy that people wouldn't be asking me for ports any more.

But upon reflection and answering another thread about why you started your druid I do not like the erosion of my class abilities. I started my druid for the SOLE AND ONLY REASON that it had teleports. This is an erosion of my class defining ability.

I still won't mind no tels for ports though. :p

Akanae Tendo
07-13-2002, 01:25 PM
I am all for other classes being able to port themselves, I wish every class could buy port pottery, or lots of gate potions. As for telling someone nicely that I dont want to port them sure I can do that but some people dont leave you alone when you do i.e.

/shout lvl 59 druid LFG
a random player tells you "hey can you port me to *insert random port here*
you tell a random player "sorry I am trying to group and get some exp"
a random player tells you " you wont find a group anyway just port me out of here"

yes this has happened to me more than once
Also I have a lvl 51 warrior and I love not having to bug druids/wizards or pay 50pp+ for a port

Triena Twobooks
07-14-2002, 06:50 PM
Surefall was my starting town as a Human Druid. Not sure if we are happy about the great unwashed porting into our lovely town, but we got together and agreed we will alow evils to port in. Oh but then we will have to kill em, its only fair no? ;)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Triena Twobooks
59 Druid o'Xev
Knows her guildmasters are red at 60 ;)

Brendi MT
07-17-2002, 08:14 AM
Hehe I like the comment on 1st page where Group Wolf Form makes us special. After now reaching 56 being stuck in everquest with no clue what to do since its all a few friends that play 24/7 with 4 computers each running and finding groups as easy as it was 40 to 52 is a thing of the past, that comment hehe. I have no idea what PoP will do with the teleports. I also have moved my Int casters to firepot room and binded in TD, absolutely love it. Now that I am again alone and no longer will look for a guild as grouping and exp do not go together in any way shape or form of whatever everquest has become since PRE-Kunark thinking.

Thought is Im a little heavier again and need to take a group to The Hole so I can again have another litter of puppies just as im about to enter the water....

Brendi Warmwolf 56 druid of morellthule

Bikkun Wolfen
07-17-2002, 09:38 AM
Thanks Verant for making us even less needed than we already are!!!

Colcannon
07-17-2002, 12:53 PM
>>Shar Vahl<<

Actually, this is a VERY god thing. It is such a PAIN to get from the Nexus to 'that side" of the moon unless you have camo.

I just wished there was an easier way for Dark Races to get to Scarlet Desert. :(

Ennder
07-20-2002, 12:15 PM
Maybe they will think it through and add ports to wizards and druids. Would you be so bothered by this if say, druids got portals to Frontier mountains, lake rathe, everfrost, scarlet desert, grimling forrest and maidens eye? Suddenly you could bring people within 1 or 2 zones of any place they wanted to hunt. Hopefully they'll think things through and add to druids/wizards mobility so this isn't such a loss. I'd gladly pay a druid for a port to SD rather than taking the pot to nexus and running, etc.

Cassea
07-20-2002, 10:06 PM
I would say IMHO that adding some strategic ports would make up for giving city ports to everyone.

SOL would have to be on the list though *smiles* and maybe at least a TL to bind.

Veridion
07-24-2002, 01:09 AM
All I can say is that I'm glad my DRUID is almost 60 now and I'm now playin' my Rogue 99% of the time... :evil:

Gimli fan
07-24-2002, 09:30 AM
I think this is a nerf to the druid & wiz. Nerf means so much, and as such applies. The druid can only stand so many nerfs. I think the wizards will take this one, as they have gotten translocate, manaburn, mana regen, & familiars recently they are possibly happy for a while (course some of that is lvl 60 stuff).

It is great that other classes will have an easier time getting around the world. I am happy for them.

(I bet all the port bots are wishing they were cleric or chanty bots now.)
No doubt bo-ku styling for all the others. Hell free ports for everyone, I imagine this change sooner would have tipped the scales for some folks picking classes. Little to late for that now though. (2 bad may have thinned out our numbers...whatever those numbers may be ;) ).


In all likelyhood this will just make many folks even more lazy. Now someone not wanting to travel 2 - 3 zones will be lazy rather than someone not wanting to travel 3 - 4 zones being lazy.

"Tool ports to Feerott...hey can I get a port to So Ro from Fee entrance?"

Whatever to all this. My rouge kicks @#%$, eh?

VERY LOW SODIUM
07-25-2002, 06:31 AM
Anyone ever read Myth adventures? First fantasy book I ever read, I still vaguely remember some of the story. It is about a demon, Ahaz, and his pet kid wizard, Skeeve. One of the dimensions the series revolves about, called the Bazaar, has portals to many other worlds. Creatures in the Bazaar would buy and sell wares and services.

I thought EQ's bazaar might be like this when I first heard about it. A bazaar in an isolated dimension, connected to many of the starting cities around Norrath, as a free download for everyone.

Though the bazaar is a zone in Luclin, and the portals come in the form of PoP, it is kinda neato to see the Bazaar come to life, after a fashion.

Also, as a newb, I started playing at the same time as some friends. Each of us choose different races. Little did we know just how long it would take for us to be able find each other to group (difficult before you learn the lay of the land). Many of my friends simply lost interest. Quick ports across Norrath is a smart move, so that friends may get together and group easily.

I wouldn't be surprised to see many new, good druid spells with PoP. Maybe even some other classes pointing and exclaiming, "Holy Jeebus! I can't believe they gave druids ________." I cannot wait to see how this PoP thing pans out.