View Full Forums : Guild point systems


Teaamilie
03-26-2003, 02:09 AM
First off, if this is in the wrong forum I apologize.

My guild is on a non point system (I forget the term) as far as assigning loot. Seems as we are hitting bigger mobs we are assigning (and not lottoing) more and more stuff. As I am sure many of you who have been in this situation know, it's a nightmare to pick the right person and of course the flood of tells after about how you picked the wrong person.

My guild is adamnet about NOT changing to a point system. When the subject was brought up, this question was asked: "How do you start a point system after so much time? Who starts with what points?"

Has anyone been in a guild that changed from non point system to point system? How did you start with points? Or did everyone start with 0?

Thanks
Teaa

Grenna TP
03-26-2003, 02:21 AM
When we went from awarding to DKP everyone started with 50 pts. The number of points are arbitrary, but should be somewhat in line with the cost of the items.

Each mob gave 2 to 14 pts, depending on difficulty.
It was a bid system, so prices varied depending on how much those present were willing to bid.
Minimum bids were 20 for minor items and 100 for major.


We have changed the system, as it had some flaws.
1) Bidding on one class loot can be rigged if the members of one class make a deal.
2) NToV and VT yields many points, and flagging yields less, giving the wrong incentives for players.
3) FFA bidding led to an inefficient allocation of items (shaman/druid/clerics could bid on Vengance items, (pure) melee could bid on focus items)

Teaamilie
03-26-2003, 03:50 AM
I'm not trying to be critical I just wonder....all of the people that have put in hard time to the guild, that time is now even steven with the other people that are rarely there?

I suppose over time, it will balance out again....

Thanks
Teaa

nieros
03-26-2003, 03:51 AM
Well we used to do a /random for loot whilst putting people in tiers.

So for example, heavy raiders did a /random 80 100, tier 2, random 60 100, and so forth to tier 4 or 5 which was 0 100
Officer set who went to what tier ( and moved them up and down ) depending on thier raid presence every few weeks.

It did us fine for where we were really, and we awared certain loot, eg to MT.

But we had some problems with MT's heading to other guilds, and people that never hardly raid, lucking out on a 0 100 and getting a 100, beating those that raided all the time.
Also some people complained to what tier they were in etc etc

We changed to a point based system.
Basic premise is, the more you raid, the more points you get.
Its per hour basically.
An officer ( usually me or a.n.other ) will /w <guildname> every hour, then after the raid we post the logs on a section of our msg board.
They stay there for a few days allowing people to post saying they missing from log X due to death or whatnot.
Then another member works out how many hours people been there, ( this is a sliding scale btw - so people who do 12 hour raids non stop get more points than those doing 12 1 hour raids etc ) and adds in any bonus that may be applied ( eg 2.5 points bonus for flagging mobs, or a mob we have not killed yet )
Its all tabulated on the msg board and everyone can see thier own points.
We then bid for items during a raid with the points.

We start each loot at a basic setting :
Tier 1 mobs, 5 points
Tier 2 mobs, 10 points
etc etc to stuff like Tier 5 - upper VT, 55 points.

Its constantly getting small tweeks and changes but its been working damn well for us.
Oh, and when we migrated, we said :
Those on tier 1 - 100 points, those on tier 2 - 80 points, etc down to tier 5 who got 20 points.

Hope that helps in some tiny form :)

- nieros

Faldile
03-26-2003, 04:53 AM
When we switched to DKP, we announced that although we would be awarding loot for two more weeks, all people who attended raids within that time would collect points. Once the two weeks was up, we started bidding on items. Depending on how much or how little you raid, you could adjust the time frame in which you collect points without spending any.

I feel this is the best way to go about it, as it does give the more active raiders an edge over those who play more casually. Of course items will go for fairly few points at the start, they will go for more as people gather more points.

Tils
03-26-2003, 05:57 AM
We use a DKP system....but if people say have a higher dkp then someone else but is never on recently or if they have been with the guild far longer sometimes this takes precidence over who has the highest dkp.


Tils

Hewl
03-26-2003, 06:09 AM
We use DKP but anyone in a tier(ours are 0points to 50points teir 1, 51-100 teir 2, 101-200, teir 3 201-400 tier 4, over 401 tier 5) randoms for an item.

Example:
Item falls 1 tier 1 person puts in for it and 2 tier 3 people put in for it. The 2 tier 3 people random for it.

If only 1 tier 2 person and 1 tier 3 person put in for item the tier 3 person gets it no random.

The highest tier gets item either random with other people in that tier or gets item as being only person in that tier that put in for item.

Maporfic
03-26-2003, 07:19 AM
Is there such a DKP system in use where people actually bid thier DKP points to determine value of items?? Instead of having vallues assigned to items??

-Map

Pariah777
03-26-2003, 07:49 AM
I'm sure one exists, but it would be a nightmare while on a raid for the loot officers. (Imagine running an auction while:

Lewtdude tells you, "I bid 4 points"
MissSoandSo tells you, "Could you link that again?"
RangerOne tells the raid, "IVE GOT RAMP, WHERE'S MY HEAL???!1!11!"
Lewtdude tells you, "am i ahead?"
StoicBob tells you, "I'll bid 2 points"
So-and-so shouts "KEEP THE #)(*$ OUT OF THE WALL! WTF? WHERE IN THE NINE HELLS DID THAT ADD WARP FROM?"
Lewtdude tells you, "d00d, am i ahed?"
CluelessTom tells you, "How many points do i heave?"
ClericFive tells raidheal, "CH on --<Target>-- in 10 seconds!"
MissSoandSo tells you, "Did you get my last tell, hon?"

And so it goes.... :D

Anyways, my guild does a DKP system, but the points are kept real low. You get a max of 2.25 points per week (we only have 2 raids a week, and you only get points for one of them) 1 for showing up, 1 for staying the full time and .25 for coming early.

The best part about our system is that those that raid religously get an advantage without it being too harsh.

We roll off, using a spread based on the point totals of the various people who sent tells for the item.

Say a HoT plate Gauntlet drops, and 5 people send tells, and they each have 10 points saved up.

You would roll /random 1 50, with one person getting one spread each. 1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-50.

If one person has like 30 and everyone 10, then the 30point person has a 30 point spread, and the others have 10.. it is the most fair system we could come up with.

Oldoaktree
03-26-2003, 07:53 AM
It is what my guild does.

No assigned values. Everyone has their merit pool (we call em merits not DKP since well we don't kill many dragons anyway). Cap is 200 merits that you can earn.

Loot drops, classes are announced. If it is an upgrade for you you bid your merits on it up to the point that you are willing to spend. The nice things about this:

1) The cost of the item is in direct relationship to its wantedness by the people at the raid.

2) No one has to maintain the price lists.

3) The only time we have to resort to rolling is when two people bid at their merit cap. Very rare. You need a very desireable item which is basically going for 200 merit.

4) Low merit costs on drops are a good indication to the guild officers when a raid is no longer highly desired by the guild.


It really isn't hard to do. Merits are done when things are quiet. EVERYONE is out of guildchat except people meriting. And we do a going 1x, 2x, 2.5x, 3x count...

As far as starting at zero, I wouldn't worry about it. My guild started at zero and within a month or two a lot of people were approaching our merit cap of 150 (at the time, it is 200 now).

We don't earn many merits per raid....1-3 for most raid mobs, 4 for some that are particularly important or a little harder, 5 for a first time kill. 5 merits per month for mains (none for twinks). Farming raids are basically 1 merit per 2h of time put in.

You would be surprised how fast the frequent raiders are head and shoulders above the ocassional people ... points build up fast.

Brodda Thep
03-26-2003, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm not trying to be critical I just wonder....all of the people that have put in hard time to the guild, that time is now even steven with the other people that are rarely there?

I suppose over time, it will balance out again....[/quote]
Wait a minute. In any good RPP system you should have a net value of zero points in the system. ie everyone is equal to everyone else at all times. (Taken over a large period of time. If you take a snap shot then of course you will have leaders. Which is, of course, what determines who gets what item.)

Of course those that raid more will accrue points more and thus can get more items faster than someone else.

Most RPP systems I see have high levels of inflation. Which I feel is bad. Inflation rewards the players that raid the most above and beyond the time they spend raiding. Ie if raider A raids 100% of the time and Raider B raids 50% of the time, then with inflation, Raider A might get 2.1 times the items as Raider b even though he only raids twice as much. Some inflation isn't all bad, but the affects of inflation need to be understood.

The first guild I was had rampant inflation. It was so bad that the points leaders could practically loot any item they wanted and never lose their points lead.

I love RPP systems. People say they are too limited, but they are only as limited as they are designed. You can take into account all sorts of factors.

Oldoaktree
03-26-2003, 09:53 AM
Yes, inflation happens...but it is temporary. Over the long term, a given loot item gets less expensive.

The most active raiders get the good items first at a high cost. Less active raiders get things later at lower costs.

Example...first AOW monk pants we were getting all went for 150 or so. Now that only a couple monks don't have them, they are going for 50 to 70.

The last monk will get theirs for almost nothing.

The trick (and the challenge) is for the leadership to figure out how long to keep a given mob on the menu. When you need to keep doing something is generally driven by raid enabling loots in the drop tables (ie IV loot sux compared to a lot of things we kill but we still kill him because he has a lot of FT drops).

Glorybme
03-26-2003, 10:23 AM
I hate DPK system. I was in several guilds that used it and never got anything. One reason, I am not a 24/7 hardcore player. I can not last till the early morning hours like the players on PST time can. So there were always players with more points even when they spent theirs. I just could not outbid SOMEONE. I left each guild with a ton of points. After a year with each, and not getting anything, just was not worth it.

Also, the boss mob stuff was decided on by the officers. So the gung ho players who went on every raid and stayed the entire time always were chosen.

I stopped and thought about it one day.
1. I was spending tons of time sitting and waiting, either for CR or buffing or for everyone to arrive.
2. The guild really felt they owned my time online. They decided if I could do my tradeskills or play another character.
3. I was actually avoiding going online or at least on that server because I had come to resent and dread how I would feel.
4. I was doing and feeling the way I was for what?

I finally decided no more guilds. Only two guilds on Stormhammer I loved being in. I left Stormhammer for one month and came back but my wonderful Euro guild had moved on to bigtime PoP zones and I had missed a ton of flags. The other disbanded when the leader moved back to his home server.

Someday, maybe I will find a nice, small guild of just friends who group together. I can make plat and buy anything I want which I have pretty much done.

kineada
03-26-2003, 10:48 AM
We use dkp. All item stats are assigned a point value (points for AC, wis, mana, resists, etc). The encounter is then assigned it's point value based on number of drops and average points for each drop divided by the average number of raiders.

Say for example a mob drops 4 items each worth 25 points. If we average 50 raiders per raid, then the encounter would be worth 2 points (25*4/50).

This limits inflation control to one metric. The average number of raiders which can be adjusted periodically. For example, during the winter months, we usually get a lot of people logging in but everyone goes out to enjoy the sun during the summer months. So encounter dkp in summer is higher than dkp in winter.

How's that for balancing RL with EQ? Log in or go to the beach? If you log in, you get more phatz lewtz. If you go to the beach, you get a tan. It's the win either way.

Gwynet Woodsister
03-26-2003, 01:18 PM
My guild has a points system too (won't call it DKP either, doesn't really make sense). We implemented it when we were doing PoF and PoH because people started being pissed to see people who were never helping with anything just log on for those raids and win rolls (funny how many druids used to log on for PoF raids ;) ).

Everyone started at 10. At the start it was very simple (people bidding as much as they want and rolling in case of tie) then problems occured so we changed the rules a bit - added some minimum bids, added the possibility for some classes to bid negative for droppable class only drops etc... All raids give 0.25 to 2 pts depending on the importance of the target.

The good thing is that it represents the participation of everyone and that the most active players get more/better loot. In our system casual players can also get loot as long as they manage their points carefully because some drops tend to go for a month's worth of points earned. But if you want something you can just save your points to make sure you have it.

The bad thing is that it's not fair. Depending on who is attending or what we have killed lately the same drop will go from 20 to 45 points... Ouch. Loot doesn't always go to the person who would need it the most. Other than that there are lots of other problems that can be fixed by adding new rules but often people find them too complicated and don't add them so the system still isn't totally fair.

I like DKP but when you paid let's say 45 pts on an item then the next time it drops it goes for 20 because the person who bid you up isn't on or people have no points or people are just bidding cheap it's very irritating :p

Oldoaktree
03-26-2003, 01:32 PM
You KNOW that the first time an item drops it will be the most expensive it ever will be. You KNOW that over time the cost will go down.

Whether your desire for the item is great enough for you to bid "top dollar" on it is the only question.

It always is in the hands of the bidder.

The one flaw is that while this system works very well on mixed class gear, the tendancy is for class specific gear to go for lower than market value. The result can be that classes with a greater mix of class only gear (rogue stickers, Pally/SK swords, monk armor, etc) can get gear for a lower cost over time than classes that have very few class only items (druid - hmm Sporecaller and um um um...arms in VT?).

Weoden
03-26-2003, 01:38 PM
some suggestions on getting started on a points system:

1. you can take attendance over one month and during that month figure out what the total points that should be given out per event is.

2. award higher points for doing flags or epics(less desireable raids) fewer points for more desireable raids.

3. have much higher cost on end mob loots versus intemediate loots. I guess elemental armor would have the highest cost and lesser armor would have lower costs.

4. raise and lower costs to regulate total guild points.

5. allow for assigning rot loot to new members on less desirable raids.

Sekira Ashdelane
03-27-2003, 04:08 AM
I have the advantage of having been able to actually write and implement our guild's point system... We call them UMPs (It started as a joke... UMP stands for Uber Me Points... there was a web site floating around at the time called UberYou).

We have a database table for Mobs/Raids that contains a point value for each mob. We have a database table for Items that contains the point cost of all items in the system.

Finally, we have two tables for tracking gains and uses of UMPs. After a mob/raid, an officer takes a /log /who and cuts and pastes the results into a web page that parses the text and creates entries in the Gains database (all automatic, so entering a raid into the system takes literally the time it takes to press Control-V and click submit).

As people are awarded items entries get made in the Uses table.

The Sum of your Gains records is your Earned UMPs, the Sum of your Uses records is your Used UMPs, and the difference between the two is your Available UMPs.

Finally, we use the Gains database to automatically calculate attendance. Since we can calculate the number of mobs/raids in a day and can, on an individual basis, determine who was at each raid, attendance is a simple calculation.

We also have "optional" raids in which UMPs are earned and loot items are recorded as uses but that don't count towards attendance calculations. These usually happen on "non raid" days.

Our UMP database is a failrly closed system, however. Individual members can see their own information, of course, but only a limited set of information for other members. The UMP figures (Points and Attendance) are used by the officers to determine loot awards from the pool of those interested in aquiring any particular item.

When we switched over from simple awarding to the point system we backfilled the database to the best of our knowledge and memory. This would be alot harder to do these days, but back then it was the early days of Kunark and we didn't have 4 years of data to deal with.

LaotzuQigong
03-27-2003, 08:48 AM
"Also, the boss mob stuff was decided on by the officers. So the gung ho players who went on every raid and stayed the entire time always were chosen."

Here is part of your problem. The core basis of the DKP system is that you try to minimize the amount of awarded loot. To award the best loot your guild is capable of getting without having a commensurate DKP cost means that people are able to accumulate points for second level upgrades.

The best DKP systems award only the most vital items (like enraging blow, special effect items), and may or may not put in limited bidding restrictions such as caster for FT or melee for Haste.

Eg, when that Talisman of Vah Kerrath drops off Aten Ha Ra, you can award it (allowing people to earn points without spending, a base cause of inflation), or you can allow it for open bid and you'll see people expending ridiculous amounts of points. Drop enough of them, and suddenly you have alot of very broke people.

When the best loot in game is open bid, the point system fixes itself. All it takes is a few 100/100+ hp/mana items, and you'll see points fly off the roster. Someone will always spend most or all of their points on a particular upgrade, thus removing them from contention for future major upgrades.

This opens up the both the Uber and less Uber items to those with fewer points and creates a natural distribution of gear based on raid contribution.

While people will sometimes complain about spending all their points, what it does do is it forces people to examine their gear progression paths very closely. It also gives those who raid less frequently more leverage, as they can choose to accumulate points for a major upgrade, or pick up those secondary upgrades that nobody wants to blow a ton of points for.

"The bad thing is that it's not fair. Depending on who is attending or what we have killed lately the same drop will go from 20 to 45 points... Ouch. Loot doesn't always go to the person who would need it the most."

Actually, what that does is it encourages frequent raiding. While someone else might "need" the upgrade more, you could also argue that half of life is showing up. If you're not on the raid, you shouldn't really expect the benefit should you? While that person who got it for 20 was on the raid and there to bid. Obviously, they needed/wanted it most of the people present at the kill. Remember, nobody forced you to bid those 45 points... you could have waited for the price to come down, or for a raid where there was less competition to bid on that item.

"The result can be that classes with a greater mix of class only gear (rogue stickers, Pally/SK swords, monk armor, etc) can get gear for a lower cost over time than classes that have very few class only items (druid - hmm Sporecaller and um um um...arms in VT?)."

This isn't the fault of the DKP system, this is an itemization problem. With or without DKP, you're going to see classes with fewer members (like Beastlords) gear up faster than classes with lots of people. For example, take a look at Tormax, Yelinak and Statue. How many Pallie/SK swords/2handers/reavers/etc have you seen rot? Item distribution on mobs by Verant does not have an equal class distribution. That there aren't enough people to consume certain loots will always result in those people gearing up fast and cheaply. On the other hand, since they gear up fast they tend to max out and not need to buy gear as much as other classes.

In the end, as was said earlier, a well designed DKP system is a zero sum game. IE, the total number of points earned should equal the total amount spent. When points earned far outpace points spent, that's the time to reassess the point earning system or item prices.

That being said, I would argue that open bids is one of the most efficient ways to ensure that points are nearly always consumed. Assuming your guild can generate sufficient amounts of high quality loot, you'll always see the number of points stay somewhat static or driven down towards low averages as people wield their points to gain upgrades.

"Is there such a DKP system in use where people actually bid thier(sic) DKP points to determine value of items?? Instead of having vallues assigned to items??"

Actually, our guild uses that system. It's remarkably easy to do. We have a seperate auction channel, and when the mob drops we start the auction. There's a minimum points bid on all items, and there's no maximum bid. Usually, you don't see 1 point increments in bidding except in the lowest value items. What you'll see on the best gear is jumps in bids of 5, 10 or even 40 or 50 points. The amount of time isn't bad, as long as you end the auction reasonably quickly.

As for transitioning to a new DKP system, one of the best ways is start logging points for 30 to 60 days with a set date for the transition to DKP. At that point, then start auctioning.

Maintenance of points is some work... someone has to update and parse logs, track and update expenditures, etc.

It also has the nice side benefit of giving officers an additional method of meting out discipline. Penalizing DKP for guild offenses, poor behavior, etc etc is remarkably effective. Nothing like seeing 25 hours of DKP go up in smoke to get a guildmate back in line... 8P

Just my 2cp.

LaotzuQigong
65 Transcendent
Legendary
The Tribunal

Oldoaktree
03-27-2003, 10:07 AM
Quote:

Usually, you don't see 1 point increments in bidding except in the lowest value items. What you'll see on the best gear is jumps in bids of 5, 10 or even 40 or 50 points. The amount of time isn't bad, as long as you end the auction reasonably quickly.


We see that all the time even on very high cost items. In our guild, we call this "caster bidding." Why? Because for some reason, it always happens on caster loot.

Melee in our guild seem more willing to straight for the real price range of an item...while casters will start out a Burrower Tunic or Robe with a bid of 1 merit of 5 merit...when the minimum cost will be 80.

Kinda funny...not sure why it happens, but even I have been guilty of it ; ).

Role Meggido
03-27-2003, 09:06 PM
Go ahead and start using a point system. Keep track of attendance, perhaps even start assigning points. Do this quietly. Let your officers or whoever normally assigns loot use this system. Of course the fact that this system exists will get out. Explain that the system is to help with better loot awards. You don't want to go to a point system, but letting the loot awarder use one ensures better accuracy. Odds are people will begin to want to know what their points are. Work in to letting people know this information (what their attendance looks like and what sort of points there are). Eventually you will wind up with a point system out of the natural course of things.

Panamah
03-27-2003, 09:29 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Is there such a DKP system in use where people actually bid thier DKP points to determine value of items?? Instead of having vallues assigned to items??
[/quote]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm sure one exists, but it would be a nightmare while on a raid for the loot officers. (Imagine running an auction while:
[/quote]

You do silent bids. People put in their bids silently so there's no rebidding. Think that'd be pretty simple to track. It'd keep people from maliciously driving up a bid just to screw someone over.

I always wondered why people don't do silent bids. That way you don't know what other people are bidding. Seems like it'd be a good way to use a lot of DKP and keep the system flowing with a minimum of fuss.

Oldoaktree
03-28-2003, 07:47 AM
I think silent bids would lead to inflation.

People wouldn't risk losing on an item and would tend to bid on the high end of their price range.

I also think it would tend to result in a lot of confusion and frustration.

It would also undermine the greatest strength of points systems. People really wouldn't know if the officers were not tinkering with the loot awards. In an open merit system there is no question who won and why...you can see the bids. But in a silent system you will still have some officer saying "the winner is x!" without evidence of the method.

Meperidine
03-29-2003, 09:55 PM
silent bids also have a dangerous side effect...officers see the bids and can cherrypick what they want for 1 point more

Oldoaktree
03-30-2003, 01:30 AM
If only one person gets the email...

But a lot of people would THINK so...which is just as bad for the health of the guild.

Teaamilie
03-30-2003, 03:56 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>We implemented it when we were doing PoF and PoH because people started being pissed to see people who were never helping with anything just log on for those raids and win rolls (funny how many druids used to log on for PoF raids ).[/quote]
Yes.....I remember my first raids in Fear I'd compete against seven that came out of the woodwork when generally I was the only guild druid main regular at the time.

/giggle

Islington
03-30-2003, 07:09 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>silent bids also have a dangerous side effect...officers see the bids and can cherrypick what they want for 1 point more[/quote] No, The officer taking the bids is not eligible to place their own bids in the auction. For example, in my guild, if a melee item drops a caster officer will hold the auction typically. However, there have been times when an officer really wanted an item but due to being the only officer at the raid they were unable to bid on the item. You have to have good officers who are willing to do this to make it work but it's pretty fair.

Brodda Thep
03-30-2003, 10:51 AM
I think a bidding system is the absolute worst system you could employ if you want to be a server leader guild.

You can't have your guilds core having to spend far more poitns than the people trailing. This doesn't work for any hard core raiding guild.

I think it would work quite nicely for trailing guilds though. Those with a large number of part time players.

Gwynet Woodsister
03-30-2003, 10:55 AM
/agree Brodda

Islington
03-30-2003, 12:44 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think a bidding system is the absolute worst system you could employ if you want to be a server leader guild.[/quote] Among others, Afterlife uses a DKP system. In fact they were one of the first guilds to implement such a system (if not THE first). Points systems are not for every guild but when they work, they work well.

jtoast
03-30-2003, 02:08 PM
My ex guilds (I quit playing a while back) DKP system.






Dragon Kill Points (DKP) is our way of distributing loot obtained during guild raids.

Introduction
Every desirable item that can be dropped by mobs we raid has been assigned a value in DKP. DKP are earned by attending raids where loot is obtained, and through incentive awards such as those for levels and AA titles. Every time an item is purchased on a raid, the DKP spent are redistributed equally back to all members attending the raid.

DKP is not a "salary" paid to our guild members for time spent helping the guild. We do not award DKP for scouting, making tradeskill items for guildmates, or taking care of guild administrative duties like web page updates. But rather DKP is a replacement for callout, where loot is assigned according to DKP balances; and DKP balances are used to decide who's "turn" it is to get an item. Except as outlined below, you must be present when someone "spends" DKP on an item on order to "earn" DKP.

Each member's DKP balance is maintained by the DKP officer. Points are "spent" immediately whenever an item is purchased. Points earned on raids and from leveling & AA bonuses will be updated twice weekly. DKP balances and detailed data are posted in the DKP forum twice a week and/or when point values change significantly. These balances are available for inspection by all guild members. Each member should review their DKP balance periodically and report any potential errors to the DKP officer.

Certain items, such as Sleeper's Tomb key talismans, are not subject to DKP. Instead these items will be assigned to those who have participated the most in guild raids. This is determined by examining each player(s) Career DKP total. This will work in a manner similar to the tier system, awarding the item to the player in the highest "Career DKP" tier, with total raids attended being the tie breaker as opposed to Randoming.

Some encounters which are critical to our guild's advancement but which produce no significant loot will be assigned a minimum DKP value (i.e, currently all Sleeper's Tomb encounters are given an 15 DKP minimum value) to ensure proper incentive to attend these encounters.

DKP may be awarded for clearing to a mob (Plane of Fear for CT, as an example). These points will be funded by subtracting from the final value of the mob. So, for example, if CT generates .5 DKP per person, those clearing may be awarded 1.0 DKP.

DKP Cap: To discourage hoarding of points, the maximum DKP balance will be 50.0 DKP. Anyone who exceeds this amount will have the excess transferred to their Auction account (this has a cap of 50.0 DKP as well). Auction points can only be used to purchase items from the auction forum. DKP may not be transferred back to the Raid account once it has been transferred to the auction account, even after the raid account balance is lowered below 50 points.

Abuse: DKP is used to fairly distribute loot, not to make the guild someone's personal profit center. Members that excessively attempt to abuse or self-profit from the system will be punished. This can range from stiff DKP fines to expulsion from guild.

Assignment of Loot
Loot will be assigned during raids in this order:
> Full member attending the raid,
> Trial member attending the raid,
> Alt attending the raid, *
> Invite in the raid,
> Alt camped nearby *
> Bank, or a random person in zone (for no drop items).
* Item costs for alts are at half value. This is to ensure members have DKP to spend on their mains.

Items will be assigned to the person in the highest DKP tier. In the case of a tie, /rand 1000 will be used to decide.

Tradable and MQ'able items that are not claimed at a raid will be placed in the guild "bank" and made available via the Auction forum, with mains having priority.

Tiers

Tier 1: 45.1 to 50.0 DKP
Tier 2: 40.1 to 45.0 DKP
Tier 3: 35.1 to 40.0 DKP
Tier 4: 30.1 to 35.0 DKP
Tier 5: 25.1 to 30.0 DKP
Tier 6: 20.1 to 25.0 DKP
Tier 7: 15.1 to 20.0 DKP
Tier 8: 10.1 to 15.0 DKP
Tier 9: 05.1 to 10.0 DKP
Tier 10: 0.0 to 5.0 DKP

Earning DKP
Raids
Everyone in the guild will receive the same amount of DKP per raid, regardless of their role. This means that a trial member will always earn as much DKP on a given raid they attend as the raid leader.

To determine the value of a raid mob, the DKP Officer takes screen shot of the raid window during the encounter. If the raid is successful, the DKP officer totals the points spent on item drops and then divides that value by the number of members who participated in the kill. These points will then be added to each member's DKP account for use on the following day.

On those occasions where a very small "break-in" or "clearing" team starts early to benefit the rest of the guild, or a raid involves killing more than one MoB, other, more complex methods are used to determine distribution of points. Refer to the examples at the end of this point for a complete description.

Levels & AA Titles
Every NDR member level 50 or higher starts with 1.0 DKP. Then bonuses for level and AA titles are added to give you your final starting DKP balance. Additional (and most) DKP is earned by attending raids.

Level and gaining experience are very important for our continued development. In order to dissuade level atrophy and to provide incentive for members to level (as well as provide some starting DKP for new members we may have join) points are awarded for each level you obtain.

> Upon reaching level 56, you earn 1.0 DKP
> Upon reaching level 57, you earn 1.0 DKP
> Upon reaching level 58, you earn 1.0 DKP
> Upon reaching level 59, you earn 2.0 DKP
> Upon reaching level 60, you earn 3.0 DKP
> Upon reaching level 65, you earn 3.0 DKP

These points are cumulative and they do not need to be earned within the guild. For example, if a level 60 Enchanter becomes a trial member, they are given 8 DKP for their level, and 1 DKP as a member, for a starting balance of 9 DKP.

AA titles will be subject to DKP awards as well. For example, reach the General level title (Baron/Baroness) and receive 1.0 DKP. Reach the Archetype level title (Veteran/Brother/Sister, etc) and receive 1.5 DKP. Reach the class level title (Marshall, Exarch, Marauder, Sensei, etc) and receive 3.0 DKP. These points are also cumulative so you can earn a total of 5.5 DKP for advancing to the class title.

Bonuses
On very special occasions, such first successful completion "milestone" encounters, a bonus may be applied to the calculated DKP to reward participants for major achievements. This is to encourage people to "stick with it" and try repeatedly until a strategy can be developed.

Keys or quests that are advantageous to the guild may also be given a DKP value upon completion. For example, for completing/having a Veeshan's Peak key, you will earn 1.0 DKP upon your first entry into VP.

Spending DKP
When a mob dies and loot is declared by an officer, the DKP officer or a delegate will call the item with it's stats and pre-assigned DKP value and ask for tells. (The DKP values of various items can be found in the DKP Updates section of the guild board and are open to review and suggestions by members and always subject to change.)The DKP officer will review the point balances of the interested members and find the people in the highest tier. If only one person is in the highest tier, they get the item. If more than 1 person is in the highest tier, those people will /random 1000 for the item.

Whenever someone purchases an item, the DKP value of the item is deducted immediately from that person's DKP raid account.

Items received during guild raids or from the guild bank MAY NOT BE SOLD or given away for personal gain. The ONLY way you can make a profit from an item gotten from the guild is if you:

1) Disband and leave the guild entirely (never to return)

2) Purchased the item for an alt from the auction forum

Any Raid DKP over 50.0 will be moved into an Auction bank DKP account. This account has a cap of 50 DKP as well. This DKP may never be moved back into your raid DKP account. The Auction account has no tiers and DKP may only be spent on items in the auction forum. You may not transfer points from your Raid DKP account into your Auction DKP account. However, you may use DKP from your raid account to purchase items from the Auction forum.

Overdrawing your DKP account: Negative DKP balances will be allowed, to a point. At the discretion of the DKP Officer, members will be allowed to go into the negative in regards to DKP account balances.
However, abuses of this policy will be noted and members may be asked to work off their DKP debt before they can put in for more items.

Auction Forum
Tradable and multiquestable Items which are not claimed on raids will be distributed via the auction forum.

For the first week, Items will be offered to mains for listed DKP value.

Items not needed by any mains will be subject to open bidding for an additional week. These items will be awarded to the highest bidder. Items which are obtained via open bidding (and ONLY these items) can be given to alts, given away, or even sold. All sales are final - they cannot be returned to the guild for DKP credit.

Items not claimed from the auction forum in a timely manner will be sold on the open market to raise funds for the guild. These funds are used to cover the cost of items used on raids (peridots, pearls, coffins, portal fragments, etc.).

Item trade-in
Tradable items that are returned to the guild will earn their former owners 80% of the DKP value of said item. Any tradable item which was awarded at a guild raid must be returned to the guild when its is no longer needed. Tradable items which are replaced by an item from a guild raid may also be optionally returned to the guild for DKP credit. Only items obtained on or upgraded on a raid can be returned (i.e., no, you can't go buy stuff in the bazaar and turn it in for DKP.)

The item will be redistributed via the Auction forum. If the item is taken by another person's main character, that main will be charged full DKP value. If no main need the item, it will be awarded to the highest bidder for an alt. If no bids were placed on it for an alt, it will be sold to raise funds for the guild bank.

Mains vs. Alts:
Everyone with multiple raid level characters must declare a "main" toon. Your "main" is the toon that will normally attend raids and receive gear upgrades.

Alts on raids: You may play an alt on a raid only with the permission of the Raid Leader. Usually this is for class-balance purposes (i.e. we are short clerics, don't have any enchanters, etc). In this case, the DKP earned will be awarded to the main.

Dual-comping: Playing two characters at the same time, will be very limited,and will only be allowed when needed to ensure a raids success. You must have the permission of the raid leader to dual-comp, and you will NOT earn any additional DKP for dual-comping.

Changing Mains: If you want to change mains, you must give the DKP officer 1 week's notice, and once the change goes into effect, stick with that character as your main for at least 2 months. The new main must be of a level and class that is needed per our guild's current recruiting needs, and is subject to approval by the guild leader and recruiting officer(s).

DKP: All DKP is "owned" by the main toon. If you change mains per the above guidelines, all DKP earned from raiding and spent on gear will be transferred to the new main. Level and AA DKP is NOT transferrable -- it will be deducted from your balance and recalculated according to your new main's level and AA titles.

Keys: Note that each RL person will only be allowed one key across all their toons for zones requiring a raid-level mob to complete the key (i.e. Veeshan's Peak, Sleeper's Tomb and Vex Thal), although we may make exceptions on occasion for needed classes.

Flagging: Guild supported flagging activities are primarily intended for mains. Alts may participate in guild-supported flagging activities if the alt is at or above our guild's current minimum level for new members, but mains will have priority.

Leaving NDR
When someone leaves the guild they forfeit all earned DKP. The exception to this is if they rejoin, per guild guidelines, within a week and it was their first time guild-removing. In this case they will retain their DKP.

Trial members
When a new member joins NDR,they will receive full credit for any raids attended prior to joining. New trial members will also receive level and AA points immediately. (Note, however, that full members will have priority over trial members for loot.)

Trial members will be limited in the amount of support they can receive from the guild during their trial period:

> No guild support for epics (*)
> No guild support for PoP flagging (PoS/PoV, PoNb, BoT, etc) (*)
> No guild support for keys requiring drops from raid-level mobs (VP, ST, VT, etc.)
> Auction items are available for trial member's main character only, and only if no full members want the item for their main. Trial members may not purchase items with DKP for an alt or to be sold.

(*) The exception to the first 2 items above would be if we were doing an activity anyway to support someone else in the guild and a trial member could tag along.

DKP Administration:
Format: DKP information is stored in a MS access database and maintained by the DKP officer. Exported information is posted in HTML format on the DKP forum twice weekly.

Updates: DKP for awarded loot is deducted immediately. DKP earned from raids and Levels/AA titles will be added twice weekly.

Calling Loot: The DKP officer will assign loot based on the live DKP database. In the event the DKP officer is not at the raid, the raid leader will select someone to call loot based on the latest posted information.

Examples:

Velketor Raid
Guildmember 1 purchases Boots of Bladecalling for 12.0 DKP

Guildmember 2 purchases Velketor's Spellbook for 8.0 DKP

Guildmember 3 purchases Vermillion Robe of Torrefaction for 12.0 DKP

Crystal Crown of Confusion is not requested by any mains for its 8.0 DKP price. Fauntine decides she would like it for her chanter alt. Fauntine then has 4.0 DKP deducted from her account and brings her chanter in to loot it.

Total DKP spent: 36.0 DKP

There were 36 guildmembers at the raid

So, each member would receive 36/36, or 1.0 DKP for the raid


Talendor Raid
Jaymus purchases a flame seared tome for 10.0 DKP

Thyrome purchases a Selos' drum for 6.0 DKP

Berge purchases a Cloak of Flames for 15.0 DKP

Phalto purchases a Kavruul's pouch for 4.0 DKP

There were 30 members at the raid

So, each member would receive 35/30, or 1.2 DKP for the raid

Trakanon is up!
We have 18 members clearing to him and 36 people for the final kill. The loot drop is 15.0 DKP. The DKP officer decides to award double credit to the 18 people who came early to help clear. So the clearing crew receive .54 points each, and those who just came to kill Trak receive .27 points each. Note that the totals balance out, minus rounding errors: ( .54 * 18 ) + ( .27 * 18 ) = 14.58.

Trading-in a Cobalt BP
Taloz returns his Cobalt BP to Natashoa as a trade in. Trak BPs are is valued at 4.0 DKP so Taloz would receive 3.6 DKP added to his raid account. The BP is then redistributed via the Auction Forum.

Multi-MoB Raid
Raids that involve killing more than one MoB and require a sustained raid-sized force, such as armor farming in HoT or dragon farming in NToV, will have DKP distributed according to how long each member attends. The DKP officer will determine a unit of measure, such as by the hour or per named dragon attempt, and give each attendee a "share" of the DKP according to how long they attended.

For example, if a total of 33 points worth of loot were obtained in TNoV from 4 named dragons and miscellaneous yard trash:
- 25 people were there all day and receive 4 "shares" each
- 5 people left before the last dragon, or arrived after the first dragon, so receives 3 "shares"
- 8 people were there for only two of the 4 dragons, so receive 2 "shares" each
- 1 person only attended for the first dragon, then had to leave due to an RL emergency.
Total units awarded is (25*4) + (5*3) + (8*2) + (1*1) = 132 total shares. Points per share is 33/132 = .25 points per share, so those who stayed all day get .25*4 = 1.0 DKP; those who attended for 3 dragons get .25*3 = .75 DKP, etc.

Changing Mains
Lets say a level 65 Sensei (monk) gets tired of pulling and wants to make her level 61 bard her new main. The guild leader and recruiting officers look at the current roster and recruiting needs and approve the change.

The monk had a total of 12 DKP from leveling, and 5.5 DKP from her AA title, for a total of 17.5 DKP. The bard is level 61, which is worth 9 DKP, and only has the Baroness title with is worth 1 DKP, for a total of 10. So when the change occurs, the new DKP balance will be lower by 17.5 - 10 = 7.5 DKP.

The monk had obtained a VP key in a prior guild, but received a ST key from NDR. The bard will be eligible for a VP key, but will not be eligible for an ST key unless the guild leader and raid leader(s) decide that bards are desperately needed for ST raids.

Jenina Icemyst
03-31-2003, 04:04 AM
Link to guild message board that has a different way of doing raid points. I really liked it and it worked very well with almost no complaints.

<a href="http://pub141.ezboard.com/fveeshansfuryguildpolicies.showMessage?topicID=21. topic" target="top">Raid Loot Point System</a>

For those that don't want to click, the main points (edited to keep it shorter) follow:

~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~

Part III : How Points Are Spent

Points are spent on a total loss system. Upon winning an item, a person's accumulated points are reset to zero.

Points are awarded per player, not character, so this system does not favor those who play more than 1 character at a raid.

Procedure:

Once boss loot is announced, the raid leader / loot master will ask for names of people present who would use the item at the expense of losing all their acquired raid points.

Once names are collected, the person with the highest point total will be awarded the item and have their point total reset to zero. In the event of a tie, the item will be rolled among the tied people by the raid leader or loot master.

A person's total points lost when winning an item is the number of points the player has up to that point in the raid. The winning player will lose only those points, not the points they can accumulate for the remainder of the current raid.

While non-guild players will accumulate points in this system, members of Veeshan's Fury always have loot rights over non-guilded players, even if VF players have fewer points.


Special Situations :

-DEFAULTS-
Player-specific defaults must be agreed on by the officers before the raid and must be stated at the start of the raid. If no player-specific defaults are announced at the start of the raid, then there are no player-specific defaults for that raid.

An item won by default results in a point loss equal to the point total of the highest current guildmember who would have rolled on it plus one point. This is the only situation that can result in a player having negative points. Also, once the point loss number is determined, the player receiving the default has the option to decline the default.

- ZERO COMPETITION -
If an item drops that is a primary upgrade for a person, but there is no competition for the item, it still results in a total point loss for the winner.

- ZERO DESIRE / NON-PRIMARY UPGRADE -
In the event where no one on the raid wants an item for a primary upgrade, winning the item will NOT result in a point loss. Instead the item will be rolled off to all those that would use it situational. This will generally relate to class-specific and no-drop items.

However, if a player wants a situational item badly enough and doesn’t want to take a chance on a roll, they can spend their points to claim the item. If more than 1 person wanted to acquire the item this way, it would be rolled and result in a total point loss to the winner.

- GRAVY ITEMS -
Gravy items won will result in NO point loss to the winner. But like non-primary upgrade items, if a gravy item is desired by a player badly enough, a player can claim the item without chancing a roll by spending their points. Again, if more than 1 player wants it under these circumstances, it will be rolled and result in the total loss of the winner's points.

Gwynet Woodsister
03-31-2003, 06:54 AM
The main problem of point systems is that if you want to make sure it also helps the guild as a whole and not only members individually you have to add tons of rules that make the system extremely complicated. Very often people don't want to bother so in the end it's not so good for the guild as a whole.

Panamah
03-31-2003, 06:59 AM
I wouldn't think of it as inflation. The bids would potentially be high, it'd be a game of psychology, which I think makes it kind of fun. But importantly it gets people to use their points up so it keeps the system fresh.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It would also undermine the greatest strength of points systems. People really wouldn't know if the officers were not tinkering with the loot awards. [/quote]

Not at all. You announce what the winning bid was at the end of the time period to auction.

Officer says: Bob had the winning bid of 25 points.
(Bob can verify, as well as the other bidders, that he had the highest bid).

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>silent bids also have a dangerous side effect...officers see the bids and can cherrypick what they want for 1 point more [/quote]

You'd have to have someone hold the bidding that wasn't able to bid on the item.

Oldoaktree
03-31-2003, 08:02 AM
Officer sends a tell to tank 01 saying "I am raising your bid to 200 on this cuz you were not gonna win and I know you really want this item..."

Tank 01 could be....someone the officers want well geared (the MA), or just a friend of the loot officer.

No one would know BUT the loot officer, after all.

Panamah
03-31-2003, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Officer sends a tell to tank 01 saying "I am raising your bid to 200 on this cuz you were not gonna win and I know you really want this item..."

Tank 01 could be....someone the officers want well geared (the MA), or just a friend of the loot officer.

No one would know BUT the loot officer, after all. [/quote]

That sort of thing usually gets known because someone will eventually blab.

To bad you can't make a "write-only" channel where you can send text but not read it. Then you could have a couple of officers, or observers join it, and then everyone else could send a message.

But a work around would be that you send the same tell to two different people. One officer running the lotto and another person appointed as the observer. If they're both crooked... well, not much you can do except start looking for a new guild.

Oldoaktree
03-31-2003, 11:56 AM
The problem remains that you are working around the essential problem...this reintroduces the all powerful loot officer.

DKP systems are meant (at least in bid based systems) to move away from that...saving both the work and the contentiousness.

Islington
03-31-2003, 12:04 PM
Oldoaktree, it really comes down to one of two things with ANY loot system. You either trust your guilds officers or you do not.

While the scenarios you present are possible, they are not the norm. The reason that guilds use a points based system is because of how fair it is. You either have the points for an item or you do not. There is no in between. Any complaint or question boils down to the person acquiring an item is willing to spend sufficient points for it. If you complain because you wanted the item, you should have bid higher.

So while it is possible that your scenarios could happen, they are the exception and not the rule.

Oldoaktree
03-31-2003, 12:10 PM
I am an officer of my guild...the point of our system was to make the loot distribution as little work as possible, and as fair and consistent as possible.

Blind systems work against that. I really, really wouldn't want to change...just my own 2cp on the concept as an officer of a guild that uses point bidding.

It isn't that I don't trust myself or my fellow officers, but it only takes ONE error of judgement to rip apart a system that relies too strongly on trust in the discretion of a few. Remember one of the fundamental aspects of points systems is that they are meant to move away from the blind trust in the officers for loot distribution.

Hasn't happened in my guild, but I know how often it has happened in others.

I just don't see a blind bidding system working out very well in the real world. The perception of favoritism too easily grows.

Remember too that a blind system encourages slow bidding, and possibly even collusion. Competitive bidding moves fast, most of the time. Blind bids will be "one more minute, one more minute!" while people feverishly send tells to each other trying to work out deals with competitors for the drops. Yes the collusion can happen in open bidding too, but it is much less likely to happen if while you are cutting your deal other people are bidding up the loot.

Islington
03-31-2003, 12:59 PM
My Guild uses a Silent Auction and this is our process:

1. Item drops and is announced with an Opening Bid Value (OBV).

2. Round 1 bidding begins and lasts for 1 or 2 minutes. You submit your bid via /tell to the officer taking bids.

3. Round 1 ends and the high bid is announced. Round 2 begins, lasting about 1 minute, and you submit your bid via /tell to the officer.

4. Round 2 ends and the high bid is announced. Round 3 begins and lasts about 1 minute again.

5. If there is no ties for the high bid, the highest bidder gets the item at the end of the 3rd round. If there is a tie, only the bidders who tied may bid in a round 4. At the end of round 4 if it is still tied, a /random is done otherwise the high bid takes the item.

It's a pretty quick process actually. Of course there are people trying to work out deals but for the most part everyone knows what they're willing to spend on an item and does so accordingly.