It seems to be a hot topic recently, but when you look at the comparable DDs, you see that druids have generally had a slight edge over mages. Mages generally got their DD upgrades a few levels before druids, but the druid DD upgrades (which often were for the same mana) were usually slight more damage in the end.

Let's take a look.

Level 1: Both Mages and Druids get Burst of Flame. 3-4 damage for 7 mana.

Levels 4/5: The 15 mana DDs.
At 4, Mages get Burn, 11-13 damage.
At 5, Druids get Ignite, which hits 15 damage.
That's about 15% more damage for the same mana.

Levels 8/9: The 30 mana DDs.
At 8, Mages get Shock of Blade, 31-35 damage.
At 9, Druids get Ignite, 33-37 damage. 6% higher at the max damage.

Levels 16/19: The 70 mana DDs.
At 16, Mages get Shock of Flame, 91-97.
At 19, Druids get Careless Lightning, 99 damage. 2% edge for druids.

Levels 24/29: The 110 mana DDs.
At 24, Mages get Shock of Spikes, 158-176.
At 29, Druids get Combust, 171-182. 3% edge.

Levels 34/39: The 155 mana DDs.
At 34, Mages get Blaze, 276-295.
At 39, Druids get Firestrike, 282-302. A 2% edge.

Levels 44/49: The 250 mana DDs.
At 44, Mages get Shock of Swords, 580-600.
At 49, Druids get Starfire, 612 damage. 2% edge. (Note that Calefaction for druids was added later for level 55, but this is something of an anomaly, particularly with its very fast casting time.)

The pattern breaks up a bit in the Kunark/SoL era, but not too much.

Level 52, Mages get Char, 260 mana for 660-702.
Level 54, Druids get Scoriae, 250 mana for 688. At the time Druids get Scoriae, I believe Char is still doing about 680 max.
Level 57, Mages gets Shock of Steel, 795-825 for 275 mana. Druids stay at 250 mana with Frost for 762 damage, but upgrade greatly at 59.
Level 59, Druids get Wildfire, 320 mana to do 1024 damage.
Level 60, both Druids and Mages have an Ancient DD. Mages get 1125 damage for 334 mana (according to EQ Casters). Druids get 1175dmg for 285 mana.
Level 60, SOL era, Druids get 1150 damage for 320 mana with Moonfire.

OK, sitting back and looking at the DD progression, what can be said is this:

1. Druids and Mages start out with the same DD.

2. For the original game, the progression was that Mages would get their DD first, and Druids would get their matching DD a few levels later (matching = same mana cost). The Druid DD would do slightly more damage at max than the Mage DD.

3. At the first max level of 50, the Druid DD was slightly better than the Mage DD: 612 damage vs. 600 damage (both for 250 mana).

4. At the second max level of 60, pre-SoL, the Druid DD (Wildfire) was substantially better than the best Mage DD. I think that this was a function of the Mage bolt being set equal to the damage of the Druid DD, when the mage bolt damage should have been higher. This is an anomaly, IMO, and is continued with the introduction of Moonfire in SOL.

5. When considering the Ancient DDs, Druids have a strong edge over Mages.


Note that I am not considering bolts in the above comparison, just like I am not considering druid's ranged AoEs. Each are situational spells with particular limitations (such as the LOS for the bolts). They help flesh out the "nuking" picture for mages and druids in different directions, just like the rains and PBAEs, but I do want to compare apples with apples. And for nuking, the best apple to use is the DD. (I will note that mages have traditionally gotten bolts with higher damage than their DDs.)

What does this mean for PoP? If these old trends are followed, mages should get a bolt with high damage (which they do now), but as far as DDs go, Druid and Mage DDs should cost about the same mana, but Druids should either do (1) slightly more damage for the same mana, or (2) the same damage for slightly less mana. The mages also should get their nukes a level earlier than the druids, but at 65, the above relationship should hold.

The PoP nukes break this trend.

Level 60, both Druids and Mages have an Ancient DD that does 1125 damage. Druids get better efficiency, though, with 320 mana vs. 334 for Mages.

Scirocco, what Ancient spell you looking at for us? =/
Ancient Starfire of Ro is 1175dmg, 285 mana, 5.8s cast

Oops, you're right. I was just pulling the numbers off EQ Casters, which has it wrong. I'll correct it.

Of course, it just makes my point even stronger. Druid DDs in PoP should match the Mage DDs. I won't worry about a 2% increase in damage, or lower mana. Same mana, same damage, would be fine with me.

Yeah but the operative word here being "were". We're not going to be comparable anymore if the morons at VI keep jacking up mage nukes. Have they invaded the domain of the wizards yet? Possibly, since the wizards got bent out of shape about our 1365 nuke. The wizards love to bash us about our nuking but how about mages, hmmm?

sticky this post for the time being?

At level 1 clerics outnuke druids, wizards, and mages.

Cleric - Strike, 6 dmg / 12 mana

Wizard - Shock of Frost 4 dmg / 8 mana
(or Numbing Cold 6 dmg / 13 mana, but it's a pbae)

Druid - Burst of Flame 3 dmg / 7 mana

Magician - Burst of Flame 3 dmg / 7 mana

Shaman - Burst of Flame 3 dmg / 7 mana
(or the dd component on Sicken 8 dmg / 30 mana + 42hp/21tick dot)

Enchanter - Shallow Breath 3 dmg / 7 mana (plus debuff)

Necromancer - Lifetap 3 dmg / 9 mana (plus gives 3 hp to caster)

this post is for the most part, completely false. ive compiled a more acurate compairson (baring in mind all mage nukes as well as averaging out gaps between nukes).

================================================== ===
PRE KUNARK SUMMARY:
L20 and under:
mages: recieve 6 nukes over the course of 6 spell circles (1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20).
the average pre 20 ratio is 1.14, average dps is 21.24.
druids: recieve 4 nukes over the course of 5 spell circles (1, 5, 9, 14, 19).
the average pre 20 ratio is 1.087, average dps is 12.22.
at levels 20 and under,
druids are 95% as efficient ratio-wise as mages.
druids are 57% as efficient at chain nuking as mages.
-

L24 - 29:
mages: recieve 1 nuke over the course of 2 spell circles (24, 29).
the average ratio is .8, and average dps is 25.15.
druids: also recieve 1 nuke. the average ratio is .78, and average dps is 14.25.
at levels 24-29,
druids are 96% as efficient ratio-wise as mages.
druids are 57% as efficient at chain nuking as mages.
-

L34 - 39:
mages: recieve 2 nukes over the course of 2 spell circles (34, 39). the average 34 - 39 mage nuke ratio is 1.9, and the average dps is 65.35.
druids: also recieve 2 nukes for these spell circles. the average ratio of them is 1.8, and the average dps is 29.87 (one of the nukes has a very long recast delay).
at levels 34-39,
druids are 95% as efficient ratio-wise as mages.
druids are 46% as efficient at chain nuking as mages.
-

L44-49(50):
mages: recieve 2 nukes over the course of 2 spell circles (44, 49). the average ratio is 2.68, and the average dps is 107.05.
druids: also recieve 2 nukes for these spell circles. the average ratio is 2.1, and the average dps is 80.
at levels 44-49,
druids are 78% as efficient ratio-wise as mages.
druids are 75% as efficient in chain nuking as mages.


thoughts:
-Pre kunark, as both classes matured to level 50, druids only fell in relative nuking efficiency to mages, while gaining some ground but still remaining markedly inferior in nuking dps. It should be mentioned druid chain nuking dps, while still generally inferior to magicians at this time relative to our superior ratios, is better actually in game due to the fact they can alternate nukes to bypass the recast delay.

-Druids also at this time only had for all practical purposes one line of nukes which saved vs fire, with only 2 rather low level spells in magic.
Mages have non-los fire, los-fire, and non-los magic to choose from.

-All mages at this time were evocation, with a very small minority being conjuration.
All druids at this time were either alteration OR evocation, with roughly equal preferance. More mages found their nukes in their primary spec than druids did.

-Its unmistakeably clear, pre kunark, mages were quite intentionally designed to be superior nukers to druids.


now lets examine kunark:

================================================== ===
POST KUNARK SUMMARY:
51-55:
mages: recieve 2 nukes over the course of levels 51-55. the average ratio is 2.64, and the average dps is 190.5.
druids: recieve 1 nuke. its ratio is 2.75, and dps is 105.8.
at levels 51-55,
mages are 96% as efficient ratio-wise as druids.
druids are 56% as efficient in chain nuking as mages.

56-60:
mages: recieve 2 nukes over the course of levels 56-60. the average ratio is 3.1, and the average dps is 141.75.
druids: recieve 2 nukes to. average ratio is 3.12, and dps is 105.
at levels 51-55,
mages are a little less than 100% as efficient ratio-wise as druids.
druids are 75% as efficient in chain nuking as mages.


thoughts:
-Post kunark, druids gain quite alot of ground relative to mages in nuking.
our bolt upgrade is pathetic compaired to the upgrade druids got to their fire nuke.

-Druids get a new line of nukes: cold saved. this is a huge upgrade since they now have 2 choices of nuke resistances (wheras before they had one) putting them further on equal footing with mages.

-Though our "naked nukes" are still faster than a druids, when a druid alternates his nukes in kunark his dps is much better than a mages. This really wasnt the case for most of pre kunark.

Generally, druids and mages are now equal in kunark, although there is slight bias towards druids.

finally, lets examine the next major nuking expansion which really "put the nail in relative nuking coffin" for mages, luclin:

================================================== ===
LUCLIN SUMMARY:
56-60:
mages: recieve a nice upgrade to our non-los fire nuke. our average nuke damage remains at 3.1 (actually drops a bit), and our average dps rises a negligable ammount to 143.7.
druids: recieve a major upgrade to their frost spell, moonfire. this raises their average dps to 3.28, and their dps to 114.
in luclin,
mages are 95% as efficient ratio-wise in nuking as druids,
druids are 80% as efficient in chain nuking as mages.

thoughts:
-wow, druids clearly are superior nukers now. if a druid alternates chaining nukes, we dont even have the fast dps advantage anymore (wildfire & moonfire together is 181 dps!)

to make the compairson truely hit home, and really illustrate just how much relative power mages have lost, lets compair ....

================================================== ===
THE END GAME THROUGH OUT THE EXPANSIONS:
pre-kunark end game (L50):
mages: shock of swords and lava bolt average out to 2.68 ratio, and the average dps is 107.05.
druids: for all practical purposes just have starfire, which is a 2.45 ratio and is only 71.2 dps.

post-kunark end game (L60):
mages: shock of steel and sfos are mages new mainstay nukes. they average out to a ratio of
3.1, and a dps of 141.75.
druids: have their fire nuke upgrade wildfire, as well as cold nuke frost. they average out to a ratio of 3.12 and a dps of 105.

luclin end game (60):
mages: most mages opt to use the less efficient new sofb over sfos, due to mod rod 2 causing nearly all mages to become conjuration (which sofb is), and the fact its easier to use on raids. our new nukes have a ratio of 3, and a dps of 142.3 (basically the same)
druids: get a massive upgrade to frost, raising their average ratio to 3.4, and their average dps to 126.2

pre kunark,
druids nukes are roughly 91% as efficient as mages, and 67% as fast.

post kunark,
mages nukes are a little less than 100% as efficient as druids, and druids nukes are 74% as fast as mages.

luclin,
mages nukes are now a pathetic 88% as efficient as druids nukes, and druids nukes are 89% as fast as mage nukes.

thoughts:
- look at that break down. its apparent mages have lost SUBSTANTIAL amounts of power to druids throughout the expansions, and our new upgrades just help us reclaim back some of that power. dont let the dps figures fool you either, mages have no real advantage there. when you alternate-chain your nukes you come out on top.

we need the new upgrades more than ever too, mod rod 2 was just nerfed and druids are better than theyve ever been before at healing.

thank you. after this post i will post a list of the data i used in making this comparison.

NUKE COMPARISON BY LEVEL (nuke name, type, damage/mana, cast time/recast delay):
L1:
burst of flame, non-los fire, 5/7, 1.5/2.5,
.71 ratio, 1.25 dps
mage and druid are exactly the same at this level

L4 / 5:
mage:
burn, non-los fire, 14/15, 1.75/0,
.93 ratio, 8 dps
druid:
burst of fire, fire, 15/15, 1.75/2.5,
1 ratio, 3.5 dps

L8 / 9:
mage:
flame bolt, los fire, 47/40, 2.5/0,
1.18 ratio, 18.8 dps
shock of blades, magic, 35/30, 2.10/0,
1.16 ratio, 16.7 dps
druid:
9 ignite, fire, 37/30, 2.1/2.5,
1.23 ratio, 8.04 dps

L12 / 14:
no upgrades

L16&20 / 19:
mage:
Shock of Flame, non-los fire, 96/70, 2.75/0,
1.37 ratio, 34.9 dps
bolt of flame, los fire, 156/105, 3.25/0,
1.49 ratio, 48 dps
druid:
careless lightning, 99/70, 2.75/2.5,
1.41 ratio, 39.6 dps

*post 20 is when classes really start comming into their own*
L24:
mage: shock of spikes, magic, 176/110, 3.5/0,
1.6 ratio, 50.3 dps
dru: no upgrades

L29:
mage: no upgrades
dru: combust, fire, 171/110, 3.5/2.5,
1.55 ratio, 28.5 dps

L34:
mage:
blaze, non-los fire, 295/155, 4.6/0,
1.9 ratio, 64.1 dps
cinder bolt, los fire, 333/175, 5/0,
1.9 ratio, 66.6 dps
druid:
fury of air (stun), magic, 250/150, 2.5/12,
1.66 ratio, 17.2 dps

L39:
mage:
no upgrades
dru:
firestrike, fire, 302/155, 4.6/2.5,
1.94 ratio, 42.53 dps

L44:
mage:
shock of swords, magic, 600/250, 6.10/0,
2.66 ratio, 98.4 dps
dru:
calefaction, fire, 450/250, 2.5/2.5,
1.8 ratio, 90 dps

L49:
mage:
lava bolt, los fire, 810/300, 7/0
2.7 ratio, 115.7 dps
druid:
starfire, fire, 612/250, 6.1/2.5
2.45 ratio, 71.2 dps


50-55
mage:
(L52) char, non-los fire, 702/260, 4.5/0,
2.7 ratio, 156 dps
(L54) scars, los fire, 450/175, 2/0,
2.57 ratio, 225 dps
druid:
(L54) scoriae, fire, 688/250, 4/2.5s,
2.75 ratio, 105.8 dps

56-60
mage:
(L57) shock of steel, magic, 825/275 6/0,
3 ratio, 137.5 dps
(L60) sfos, los fire, 1024/320, 7/0,
3.2 ratio, 146 dps
(L60) sofb, non-los fire, 1005/334, 6.8/0,
3 ratio, 147.7 dps
druid:
(L57) frost, cold, 762/250, 6/2.5,
3.04 ratio, 89.6 dps
(L60) wildfire, fire, 1024/320, 5.8/2.7,
3.2 ratio, 120.4 dps
(L60) moonfire, cold, 1150/320, 6.2/2.5,
3.59 ratio, 132 dps

Um hi who cares if we nuke 5 @#$ing percent less then mages? They just had their rods taken away, and most of them had spent months and months getting HP's gear for chrissakes. We arent losing anything in PoP, we're fine. And I laugh at you including the ancient nukes, as I doubt more then 3 druids a server have them.

Why even post this on a Druid board?

Use you energi on getting better pets that can survive AEs or something.

Saying magician bolts don't count is like saying HoTs don't count when healing. Not a chance. If it's as useless as magicians try to say it is then why do they care that it got nerfed?

The fact is the bastard children of wizards each got part of their parent's domain, druids got quick damage, magicians got subtlety and in any boss mob fight I've ever been on that means the magician will outdamage the druid by 20% sans pet. Agro has always been a greater limiter than mana, and the shorter the fight the more that is true.

With PoP magicians again pass druids, discounting ancient nukes, for efficiency despite druids lack of clicky nukes and lack of pet for the massive manaless damage magicians get.

Noonie... for 39 and below you're basically averaging two nukes to show that druids don't nuke as well, it's a little artificial and ignores druid DOTs. Siracco's shows this a bit more clearly, magicians get the same nuke druids do only not quite as good but they get it 5 levels earlier when... druids get a DOT instead at that level which is more efficient still. Yes, pre 60 druid DOTs actually counted for something and things were balanced because of it. Regardless basically what you see is druids nuke about as well as druids, even your numbers are within 5%.

44-49 Calefaction is a fast cast nuke that is also very innefficient which is why there is the dip in the trend because again, you've artificially amalgamated a bunch of nukes for no explainable reason. During these levels druids cast Starfire or Ice, period, they did not cast 1 of each nuke they had.

Your pre Kunark thoughts, well... Druids didn't significanlty fall in nuking power, druids did not have just fire, Ice which has the same ratio as the top fire nuke and the cold based rains were also present and for outdoors (pre kunark remember) Lightning Blast was a useable magic nuke. Also DOTs were more efficient than nukes at that point and druid DOT was better than the best magician nuke. At THAT POINT, DOTs mattered, however now if you look at 60 or 65 with PoP DOTs are irrelevant as nukes are more efficient and fights are much different. So magicians always had a small edge in nuke damage over druids but druids did more damage than magicians with DOTs. As you would say, it's unmistakenly clear druids were meant to outdamage magicians with their damage spells.

Kunark... again I disagree with your thoughs. Magicians get a bolt exactly as efficient as the druid nuke, if you discount double hits and the two classes are put on basically equal nuke footing. The "quite a lot of ground" druids gain by you artificially lowering their nuking ability pre kunark is in fact a small amount of ground. Druids don't gain a new cold line, they gain an upgrade to it and gain a powerful addition to their magic line giving druids 3 full fledged nuke lines to magicians 2 however by limiting it to outdoor only the majority of Kunark dungeons get excluded and the nuke rarely gets used, effectivly leaving drudis with just fire and cold. Also druids get a very powerful upgrade to their cold rain line with Kunark. Druids also get upgrades to their DOTs that makes them FAR better than magicians for damage dealt by mana. However... this was also the start of druid's healing problems, shaman Torpor vaulted them way beyond druids for almost 3 expansions until druids got Tunare's Renewal late Luclin and also Kunark is when CH started to become overpowered and additions like the high ratio Celestial Elixir left druids screwed with very low efficiency healing and being effectivly useless as healers for 3 full expansions.

Luclin... I dunno WTF went on there, Moonfire was an abysmal pile of garbage when it was first put in, it was a downgrade to Frost. Luclin's release was yet another huge nerf to druids, no nukes, no heals. Druids were sitting below paladins for healing and nuking was pretty feeble with Wildfire. VI finally took notice and upgraded Judgement so clerics outnuke druids... yeah... go figure... but also gave druids a decent nuke at 60... but don't forget, by this point druids haven't seen a DOT for 7 levels and 2 expansions, VI has abandonded giving druids DOT upgrades and have focused on just nukes, really all moonfire does is keep druids pretty much where they were by putting the damage that DOTs were doing into the DD line. Meanwhile magicians become infinite mana machines but... their nukes don't get an efficincy gain, however gain spell casting subtlety putting them behind druids for efficiency in nukes without the rods but ahead for actual damage they can do. Magicians however are also the only source of the best evocation focus item in the game.

Now and PoP... Druids healing gets fixed making them a healing class again which they haven't been since people started hitting 60 in Kunark, nice nuke upgrades and insufficient DOT upgrades. Magician pets get fixed and magicians get some summoned line spells similiar to how druids get animal line spells, magician nuke efficiency surpasses druid's and magicians gain a new line of pets that will doubtless outdamage their current pets which are already pushing magicians past wizards for premier damage class.

And there you have it... PoP is the first time magicians will actually outdamage druids in long term DPS with cast spells. Druid DOTs are no longer a factor since Luclin made nukes the druid's primary form of damage, and PoP hands magicians more efficient nukes and a much more efficient rain than druids. Magicians get new abilities handed to them, pet upgrades and major nuke upgrades and are wondering why druids, who just lost the ability to outdamage petless magicians, which they've had since day 1, might complain.

Either way, the difference isn't so great before you add on a pet, add on a pet and magicians might do 200% of the damage of druids, oh well, maybe next expansion we'll get a Booboo focus so we get a pet too. At least the 3 expansion @#%$ rapeing druids have suffered for healing is over.

Wow, how very convenient of you to totally ignore Lavabolt. It's not a DoT, it's not a Rain, it's a nuke. The fact that is it projectile aim does not discount it in any way from being a nuke and should be compared as such.

Lavabolt is 810/300 @ lvl 49. It blows away Starfire in ratio, DPS, and max damage.

Hmm, on glancing over your post again I see you also conveniently ignored not only Seeking Flame (bolt, lvl 59) but also Shock of Firey Blades (lvl 60), which is a straight DD in every sense.

Let me guess, when you compare healing ability you want to take out percentage heals and some how say that (since you can ignore CH) Clerics don't heal better than Druids?

I mean really, for a "moderator" you should be ashamed of yourself posting such a sham as "dispelling the myth" when in fact you based your entire argument on excluding relevant data.

Go away Noonie, you've already proven yourself to be ignorant.

Inserting the mage bolts in the post by Scirocco:
------------------------------------------------------------
Level 1: Both Mages and Druids get Burst of Flame. 3-4 damage for 7 mana.

Levels 4/5: The 15 mana DDs.
At 4, Mages get Burn, 11-13 damage.
At 5, Druids get Ignite, which hits 15 damage.
That's about 15% more damage for the same mana.

Levels 8/9: The 30 mana DDs.
At 8, Mages get Shock of Blade, 31-35 damage.
At 9, Druids get Ignite, 33-37 damage. 6% higher at the max damage.

Levels 16/19: The 70 mana DDs.
At 16, Mages get Shock of Flame, 91-97.
At 19, Druids get Careless Lightning, 99 damage. 2% edge for druids.

*At 20, Mages get Bolt of Flame 156 damage, 105 mana.

Levels 24/29: The 110 mana DDs.
At 24, Mages get Shock of Spikes, 158-176.
At 29, Druids get Combust, 171-182. 3% edge.

*At 34 Mages gets Cinder Bolt 333 damage, 175 mana.

Levels 34/39: The 155 mana DDs.
At 34, Mages get Blaze, 276-295.
At 39, Druids get Firestrike, 282-302. A 2% edge.

Levels 44/49: The 250 mana DDs.
At 44, Mages get Shock of Swords, 580-600.
*At 49, Mages get Lava Bolt 810 damage, 300 mana.
At 49, Druids get Starfire, 612 damage. 2% edge. (Note that Calefaction for druids was added later for level 55, but this is something of an anomaly, particularly with its very fast casting time.)


The pattern breaks up a bit in the Kunark/SoL era, but not too much.

Level 52, Mages get Char, 260 mana for 660-702.
*Level 54, Mages get Scars of Sigil, 175 mana for 450 damage.
Level 54, Druids get Scoriae, 250 mana for 688. At the time Druids get Scoriae, I believe Char is still doing about 680 max.
Level 57, Mages gets Shock of Steel, 795-825 for 275 mana. Druids stay at 250 mana with Frost for 762 damage, but upgrade greatly at 59.
Level 59, Druids get Wildfire, 320 mana to do 1024 damage.
*Level 59, Mages get Seeking Flame of Seukor, 320 mana, 1024 damage.
Level 60, both Druids and Mages have an Ancient DD. Mages get 1125 damage for 334 mana (according to EQ Casters). Druids get 1175dmg for 285 mana.
Level 60, SOL era, Druids get 1150 damage for 320 mana with Moonfire.
*Level 60, SOL era, Mages get 1005 damage for 334 mana with Shock of Fiery Blades.
------------------------------------------------------------
Something to note is that both Wildfire and Moonfire was upgraded as part of the caster rebalancing and no other DDs of either Magicians and Druids was touched. So they stand out a bit compared to other levels.

Bolts do have limits during raids, but during levels 1 to 50 so do they work as well as any DD.

I've excluded bolts because I've excluded druids AoEs. If you included bolts, then you also have to include the ranged AoEs of druids, which probably put mages at about half the nuking power of druids. Do you really want to go that route? I'll post the numbers, but it will make all the mages cry.

Even Verant justifies the high damage of bolts based on the LOS requirement, and distinguishes between DDs and bolts on that basis, saying that bolts are situational.

Regardless, I am comparing druid DDs to mage DDs from 1 to 65. The only change requested is that the druid DDs match the mage DDs (not bolts) for the 61-65 range, just like the lower level DDs. No one, even a mage, can deny the truth of the comparison of DDs to DDs above. And I continue that comparison of DDs to DDs for the PoP spells, looking only at the DDs of each class.

If it's an issue of DPS, then lower the recast time of the mage DDs. That way, ALL THREE primary methods of comparison remain in balance:

Damage/cast
Damage/mana
Damage/time

Right now, druids are taking a beating on damage/cast and damage/mana, compared to pre-PoP DDs.

I've excluded bolts because I've excluded druids AoEs. If you included bolts, then you also have to include the ranged AoEs of druids, which probably put mages at about half the nuking power of druids. Do you really want to go that route? I'll post the numbers, but it will make all the mages cry.

um,
1) bolts are the same thing as a dd with a minor restrictive element.
2) aes are totally different. unless its a rain (which its not, its a pillar), we are only counting spells which can be used against 1 target.
3) if we are going to count all of the classes damage capabilities, i think its you who doesnt want to go that route :P
4) you are completely ignoring druid upgrades in other areas, and mage downgrades in other areas. at the begining of luclin, yes moonfire made total sense. mages were mana machines, and druid couldnt heal for poop.

that is no longer the case, and changes must be made to adapt to new situations.

Mages will be unbalanced. Throw them some other bone but if you give the best pet class the second best nukes you're asking for trouble. But then VI has never thought ahead so oh well.

IT'S NOT AN AOE, IT'S NOT A DOT. It is a single target, instant damage spell. OF COURSE IT'S A DD. With focus items, all focus items that effect straight DDs, effect Bolts too. They are the same class of spell.

The only reason you excluded them was to slant the results to "prove" your point. That would be like Magi only comparing Druid vs. Magic nukes to Mage vs. Magic nukes--oooh, we own our Shock of <Metel> style defeats your <movement> of Wind style!

Some times I wonder why DG gets such a bad rep, then it's own moderators prove why. You're entire "analysis" is based on skewing numbers in your favor. When comparing nukes you exclude a large portion of Mage single target, instant damage spells. Now that we point out your omission, you want to compare single target spells to targeted AoEs and call that "proof" that Druids were always ahead? Yeah, comparing singe target spell effeciency to multi-target spell effeciency is really a valid comparison! If you're going to do that, you would have to add PB AoEs too. Oh, we beat you in that area too. Then what would you do, compare PB AoEs to movement enhancing spells and proclaim Druids the winners because they can SoW everyone while Magi can only SoW their pets?

1) bolts are the same thing as a dd with a minor restrictive element.

Sorry, you will have to just be in disagreement with me and Verant. Verant doesn't consider bolt spells to be DDs. Don't know why you would. They're situational, just like my AoEs. My AoE is just a DD, except it hits four targets. Your PoP bolt does 2000 per shot (assuming no resists or LOS problems). My AoE does 4400 per shot to 4 mobs. That means that I can probably kill mobs in the aggregate by nuke about twice as fast as you can. Hmmmm...guess that makes druid clearly the no. 2 nuker, n'est pas?

In any event, if you want to hang your hat on bolts, mages get a 2000 pt bolt in PoP, right? Why are you so hung up about druid and mage DDs being the same damage (and at the 1550 level, well below your bolt damage)? You not only want your superior bolt damage, you want to shove druids down the DD ladder as well. Pitiful.


2) aes are totally different. unless its a rain (which its not, its a pillar), we are only counting spells which can be used against 1 target.

I don't know what you're counting, but I'm counting DDs. Bolts are not DDs. If you want to start bringing in damage spells with different variations (like the bolt LOS), then I'll bring in my targeted AoE. We aren't talking about rains or PBAEs at all, but we can if you want. But that's all irrelevant to the question of DD damage.


3) if we are going to count all of the classes damage capabilities, i think its you who doesnt want to go that route :P

With your pets, I really think it's the Mage that doesn't want to go that route. In any event, I was not addressing the total damage dealing capacity of the classes, which would have to encompass far more than the DDs. I was addressing the historical relationship between mage and druid DDs. You don't like the results, so you're trying to drag us off on a tangent.

I'm only talking about the DDs, baby.


4) you are completely ignoring druid upgrades in other areas, and mage downgrades in other areas. at the begining of luclin, yes moonfire made total sense. mages were mana machines, and druid couldnt heal for poop.

I am looking to maintain the relative balance of DD power. In Luclin, mages should have gotten a DD that matched Moonfire. Apparently, the payoff was becoming a mana machine. Now that you aren't becoming a mana machine, you have the reasonable expectation of getting DDs that match druids again, based on the historical relationship. But the change to mod rods doesn't mean you should get BETTER DDs than druids, when you NEVER did before.

And I'm not ignoring the restoration of druid healing to something approaching the historical balance. Druid healing took a beating in Kunark and Luclin, and finally with PoP our healing abilities are being restored to something close to the historical balance with the other healers. It's still less than it should be, but it's close enough. There's no justification there for our DDs to be weaker than a mages.

Magicians have always considered bolt spells to be DD's. Focus items effect them as though they were direct damage spells. It does all of it's damage on impact against a single target. It's restriction is line of sight. It doesn't have target restrictions like a vs. Summoned or vs. Undead line. Please make a link directing me to where it says Verant doesn't consider bolts to be DD's.

While you look at Starfire vs. Shock of Swords, Magicians are looking at Lava Bolt vs. Starfire. When comparing the 49 Druid spell against a 44 Magician spell, it's not overly surprising that Druids have a slight lead. Compare the 49 spells and you'll see Magicians have a 9.33% lead.

Discounting bolts, since you insist they aren't DD's, Druids aren't exactly gimptastic. Looking at both damage per mana and damage per second, Druids are keeping pace pretty well.

Black Steel- 1400 dmg/360 mana. 6.25 cast.
-3.89 dmg/mana. 224.00 DPS

Sun Vortex- 1550 dmg/395 mana. 6.35 cast.
-3.92 dmg/mana. 244.09 DPS

vs.

Summer's Flame- 1350 dmg/350 mana. 6.0 cast, 2.5 recast.
-3.85 dmg/mana.
-Single cast (recast doesn't come into play) 225.00 DPS
-Chain casting (recast does come into play) 158.82 DPS

Winter's Frost- 1465 dmg/375 mana. 6.0 cast, 2.5 recast.
-3.91 dmg/mana.
-Single cast 244.17 DPS
-Chain casting 172.35 DPS

Alternating Summer's Flame and Winter's Frost to get around the recast time:
-3.88 dmg/mana. 234.58 DPS

So if you compare a Magician chaining Sun Vortex against a Druid alternating Summer's Flame and Winter's Frost, you don't see much of a disparity.

-3.92 dmg/mana vs. 3.88 dmg/mana: 1.02% Magician advantage.
-244.09 DPS vs. 234.58 DPS: 3.90% Magician advantage.


I am looking to maintain the relative balance of DD power. In Luclin, mages should have gotten a DD that matched Moonfire. Apparently, the payoff was becoming a mana machine. Now that you aren't becoming a mana machine, you have the reasonable expectation of getting DDs that match druids again, based on the historical relationship. But the change to mod rods doesn't mean you should get BETTER DDs than druids, when you NEVER did before.

And I'm not ignoring the restoration of druid healing to something approaching the historical balance. Druid healing took a beating in Kunark and Luclin, and finally with PoP our healing abilities are being restored to something close to the historical balance with the other healers. It's still less than it should be, but it's close enough. There's no justification there for our DDs to be weaker than a mages.

You choosing to ignore bolts doesn't mean that they aren't considered DD by every Magician. Bolts have always been the most efficient DD's Magicians have. Lava Bolt was the most potent pre-Kunark DD, SFoS was the most potent DD and remained so through both Velious and Luclin. SoFB was used more in Luclin because Magicians switched to Spec. Conj. in droves to pump out rods. Now with PoP, Firebolt of Tallon is slated to become the best nuke.

Druids are a generalist class. Other classes are going to do things better then you. The Magician lead in PoP nukes is small to the point of it being non-existent. Let Magicians do their damage while Druids do some of everything, albeit, not as well as specialists.

Magicians have always considered bolt spells to be DD's.

It doesn't matter what mages consider bolt spells to be. Verant doesn't consider them to be DDs.

And neither do I. They have restrictions that DDs don't. That makes them non-DDs.

I could say that I consider the druid ranged AoE to be a DD. It's just a DD that hits four targets at once instead of one, making it an extremely efficient DD. But it still wouldn't matter, since it's an orange, a bolt is a banana, and the DDs are apples.

Moreover, you're missing the point. I am not comparing druid DDs to the mage bolt spell, which sits very nicely at 2000 damage. The historical comparison I did compared the "pure" DDs, the DDs without any restrictions, only. Is there any reason why the historical relationship between the "pure" DDs shouldn't continue into PoP?

None. Exactly. And that is all I am pushing for. The "pure" DDs of both classes should maintain the same relationship they had before.

If mages want to point to the 2000 point bolt and say that they're second best "nukers," I really don't care. It's not the status of second best nuker that matters, it's the relationship of the "pure" DDs.

It doesn't matter what mages consider bolt spells to be. Verant doesn't consider them to be DDs.

That's a blatant lie. VI does consider them to be DDs, else DD-only focus effects wouldn't work on them. Improved Damage/Gallenite's Destruction do not work on any type of AoE or DoT (including Rains), but they do work on Bolts.

VI has always given Magi a bolt to compeat with Druids at the same level. You're trying to compare a lvl 44 nuke to a lvl 49 nuke in original retail, while ignoring that Magicians were given a Bolt at 49 to surpass what Druid's got. In fact, even with a miss here and there, Lavabolt still outpaces Starfire in effeciency and DPS.

Again at level 59, Druids got a DD (Wildfire) and Magicians got an exact clone in Seeking Flame of Suekor. Druid spell was non-LoS, Mage spell was Bolt. They are the exact same spell, just with the unique characteristics of their respective classes.

Your comparison to AoEs to Bolts in an informal logical fallacy of False Anology. What are bolts used for? Doing damage to a single target. What are AoEs used for? Doing damage to several targets. If you're going to compare them at all, you would have to compare their effeciency on a single target, in which case a Bolt would destroy any AoE (save Rains).

Your argument in it's entirity comits and atrocious informal fallacy of Suppressed Evidence, and borders on a Straw Man. You are seeking to setup the conclusion to favor you by construsting a basis for comparison where you cannot lose, while exempting relevant information.

You have to judge a spell by what it's used for. I challenge you to find any significant percentage of Magi who used Shock of Swords over Lavabolt in a situation where Fire spells would not be resisted. Now, I challenge you to find me even one Druid who uses targeted AoEs for fighting a single target. Yes I'm begging the question, but I'm illustrating your absurd comparison. The mere fact that my argument in this paragraph is ridiculous, shows how much of a stretch you're making to stack the odds in your favor.

You're like the judge in the Robert Blake case, first you say that no witnesses will be called for the bail hearing, then you deny bail because the defense didn't call any witnesses!

A while back there was a thread in your rants section that asked "why are Druids hated so much?" Well I have your answer: Because of Druids like you. You demand the world, and don't let silly things like logic or reason stand in your way.

you do understand youre pretending to not consider bolts to be dds, just to form your arguement?

everyone else seems to recognizes bolts as dds except you. well actually, i should say no one doesnt recognize bolts as dds, since up until now its never even been an issue... its one of those obvious things you dont even have to talk about.

it does damage instantly, to one target, with no other effects (i.e. a stun component, snare component, or heal component). its a dd. i dont know how to make it any simpler than that.

you want to talk about pillars, and dots, fine whatever... those have nothing to do with the discussion as they arent dds.

but in dding, mages have traditionally been distincly better. throughout the course of the game druids have gotten upgrade, after upgrade, after upgrade relative to mages.

the facts speak for themselves. this really shouldnt be an issue :/

Heh...I can understand why you want to be obtuse about missing my point...you can't refute it. If you look at the pure DDs, the single target DDs without any restrictions, as I did above, you can see that druids have a slight edge all the way through level 60. PoP inverts that relationship.

Bolts are irrelevant for this analysis. Bolts did more damage at lower levels. The new PoP bolt does this as well, with 2000 points of damage. I don't want to touch your bolt, and I am NOT making an argument that a druid DD should do as much damage as the bolt. Just that the druid DD should do as much damage as the mage DD, which has ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE. What's the problem?

Let's compare apples with apples, shall we? I don't care that you have a banana.

List the upgrades mages have gotten compared to druids. You're right about one thing though, it isn't an issue, because you have the best pets in the game ergo you shouldn't have the second best nukes. Next subject...

Ok, maybe they're DDs. In that case, I think it would be entertaining to argue that PoP druid DDs should preserve their dps/dpm positions relative to mage DDs (including bolts). I'd use the last 10 levels of spells as a reference, along with the new mage bolt, and try to construct the druid fire and cold DDs from that.

-Q

Prepare yourself scir because Im about to school you, you failed to take into account level by level nuking power you just totally glossed over but dont worry youll see what I mean well start at level 16 because well I really hate using hardcore newb nukes as examples newbie levels are pretty up and down so Im starting where your power comes to age.

Magician Druid
16 91 35
17 92 35
18 93 35
19 95 91
20 97 93
21 97 95
22 97 97
23 97 99
24 158 99
25 160 99
26 164 99
27 168 99
28 172 99
29 176 171
30 176 174
31 176 176
32 176 178
33 176 180
34 276 182
35 280 182
36 284 182
37 288 182
38 292 182
39 295 282
40 295 286
41 295 290
42 295 294
43 295 298
44 580 302
45 584 302
46 588 302
47 592 302
48 596 302
49 600 612

Now you had me go and do math you cant give mana/dmg ratio as an excuse because well when any of us get the new dd the old one goes to the back of the book and mana/dmg ratio gets better as you get higher. So you actually out of 34 levels you nuke better than us exactly 6 levels and the power disparity is rather small while when we get the new nukes the disparity is huge, wow you proved to me that you were always better nukers than mages. See if you counted bolts the disparity would be greater but since you want to be and apple to apple guy thats fine with me we still own you most of the levels.

LOL. Schooling? Danaeb, you've just repeated exactly what I stated above. Remember we're considering the matching DDs...the ones that cost the same mana.

I'll repeat myself, maybe you'll listen this time. The pattern has been that mages get their DD a few levels before druids, while druids catch up with the matching DD. Same mana, slightly more damage for the druids. Guess what...you've just proven my point with your own numbers.

I took this relationship into account when talking about the 63 mage nuke and the 64 druid nuke. You get the nuke earlier, and druids get it later. But it should be for the same mana, and doing the same damage. Mages would even be better off than historically because druids don't get more damage.

Now, let's look at the "end levels," the max level for the original game and subsequent expansions. At 50, your own numbers show that druid DD damage is better than the mage. 612 > 600. And at 600, it's even clearer, right? I can't help but notice you declined to post the numbers for 50-60.

I reached level 49 about 6 months after release. Thus, for over 85% of my game playing time, my DDs have done more damage than the matching mage DDs.

So now we have a new end level, 65. Druids probably should have slightly more damage with their DD, but I won't quibble...let mages have the same damage.

As far as damage/time, I also won't quibble there. The mage DDs should have a lower recast time than it currently has. I have to shake my head at the foolishness...if mages and druids pulled together, with druids getting the higher damage and higher mana for a matching DD, mages should/would get a faster turnaround time on their proposed DDs. Nobody loses, everybody wins.

Anyway, thank you for making my point for me. Although I know it was accidental. Must be that some mages are letting their pets doing the thinking for them as well as the fighting....;)

Again, show me where Verant has stated that bolts aren't DD. You're the first person I've ever heard say that bolts aren't DDs.

Your comparison is still poor. Druids getting virtually the same spell Magicians had 5 levels before, the difference being a whole 3 to 12 damage more doesn't make Druids better nukers. Danaeb's chart shows that.

I'm also a little curious as to why Magicians shouldn't have the 2nd best nukes and the best pets. Necros have the best DoTs and the 2nd best pet. Wizards are the best porters and nukers. Clerics have the best buffs and heals. Enchanters are the best crowd controllers and 2nd best debuffers. There's plenty of cases where someone is the best at something and 2nd best at something else.

By Scirocco's logic, Winter's Frost should be a level 65 spell that does 1050 damage/334 mana if he want's to keep it in line with the pre-50 method. A slight upgrade 5 levels after Magicians get theirs (Shock of Fiery Blades). But it doesn't work that way, since the relative DD power breaks down post-50. Wildfire offers the same power and efficiency as Seeking Flame of Seukor without the LoS issues. Then Moonfire destroyed any equality there was. Returning to a pre-50 system would give Druids a worse spell then Moonfire, which would royally piss Druids off to no end.

The new Magician nukes do return the relative power to a semi-pre-50 system. Although the nukes do go Summer's Flame < Black Steel < Winter's Frost < Sun Vortex < Firebolt of Tallon. While some Druids love to trumpet the 2.5 sec recast and use it to make Druid nukes look feeble, alternating SF and WF to get around the recast gives Druids a spell DPS between Black Steel and Sun Vortex.

Edit: Did you look at the entire chart or just the level 49 category. The places Druids outnuke Magicians are at 23, 32, 33, 43 and 49. All of those levels would have a Magician out-nuking a Druid if you include bolts.

The point Im making to you is that our mana/damage ratio is better most levels than druids. Your taking a spell thats 5 levels older than what we get and trying to show that its better, well Id hope so considering it wont actually be better than the magician version till about 3 or 4 levels after you get it so thats an 8 or 9 level disparity total between the time we get our nuke and your nuke gets better than ours.

Your reaching man because your original post in no way shows that druids have always been the better nukers if anything it shows that every so often you get a wee bit ahead of us and then we just blow you away again Pre-Kunark.

That's a blatant lie. VI does consider them to be DDs, else DD-only focus effects wouldn't work on them.

I don't know of anywhere that says those foci are "DD-only". At least not in anything Verant has ever written. You have taken your own personal definition of the term DD, used that to decribe the limitations on those Foci and then used that description to argue that Bolts are DDs. That is a Circular Aeguement. Circular Arguements have no value.

Verant has always used the term DD in such a manner as to not include Bolt type spells. Whenever they wish to talk about both spell types at once the say something to the effect of "DDs and Bolts".


Magicians have always considered bolt spells to be DD's.

Some Magicians are of this opinion. Just like some Beastlords don't consider the Beastlord class to be a Hybrid class. Some members of the class thinking it doesn't make it true.

The rest of us are aware of the differences between the two spell types and the fact that they are different.

Again, show me where Verant has stated that bolts aren't DD. You're the first person I've ever heard say that bolts aren't DDs.

Email Interview with GZ Nov 23,1999 (http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=468)
GZ talking about DDs and Bolts in PvP Mar 19,2000 (http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=1036)
GZ talking about upcoming Kunark spells April 15,2000 (http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=1286)

I found those by going over to CastersRealm and searching their news archive using the term Bolt. There were MANY others, but I figure that three should be enough. If you want more, go do the search yourself.

im not even sure what your point is.

our non-los nukes are competative with your non-los nukes. so they are a little better, big deal. mages and druids have always had a fluctuating relationship with nukes, one day your 1% better than us, the other day its the other way around.

consider it compensation for your kunark nuke being equal to our bolt if you like.
or, for you getting a second resistance to nuke with, and then again getting that second resistance upgraded so that its better than your primary resistance.

i mean you want to talk about "injustices" in nuke upgrades, how this upgrade isnt "in line" with tradition. why then do you ignore all the upgrades youve recieved relative to us in nuking?
if anything, mages should be calling for druid nerfs in nuking not the other way around.

im sorry for comming across as rude, i just dont see why you want to knock down mages more than weve already been nerfed these past few weeks.

sigh nm

From the first article:
Remember, this is DD - not DoT, Bolt, etc.

DD - not Bolt......

Second article:
There is no difference in the PvP damage modifier between bolt and DD spells.

If DD includes Bolt, it wouldn't even BE a question. THe response would instead have been "Bolts are DDs and as such sare the same modifier". Not, "We tested to insure that both types have the same modifier".


Third article:
New damage spells, including:

Harder hitting DD
Rain spells with unusual additional effects
PB, AoE fire
Hotter bolt spells


DD and Bolt are listed seperately... either they are different, or they were being redundant. Given that there was no other redunancy in that article, it is reasonable to conclude they are different.


All it takes is a little reading comprehension.

so they are a little better, big deal. mages and druids have always had a fluctuating relationship with nukes, one day your 1% better than us, the other day its the other way around.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. If the druid "pure" DD damage was only 1% less than the mage "pure" DD damage, you wouldn't hear me complain at all. If the druid nuke at 65 was 1535 to the mage nuke of 1550, it wouldn't be worth arguing about, IMO.

But it's a bit more than 1%, you must admit. If it's not such a big deal, why are you arguing so strenuously against it? Just make the DDs do the same damage for the same mana, and shave 2 or 3 seconds off the recast time for the mage versions.

Scirroco wrote: "and shave 2 or 3 seconds off the recast time for the mage versions"

Good suggestion. Faster recast times have always been a feature of mage nukes compared to the slow recast time of druid nukes. In 2+ nukes mages would out damage druids ad nauseam. This is not even factoring in pet damage.

--
Kenuon Windrunner

There's nothing saying they aren't DD. They distinguished between DD with and without line of sight issues. Would you say Immolate isn't a DoT because it has an AC debuff component? Bolts are an integral part of Magicians. Totally discounting a large part of Magician blasting power and comparing Druid spells at their best against Magician spells at when they're 9 or 10 levels old to make Druids look superior.

It doesn't matter either way, since Magicians still outperform Druids with non-bolt spells except at the level's I've mentioned.

Look at the numbers, the only places Druids beat Magicians are 23 (2 damage), 32 (2 damage), 33 (4 damage), 43 (3 damage) and 49 (12 damage). Because Druids can outperform Magicians at those levels, Druids have superior direct damage? 5 out of 33 doesn't make Druids better. Even when they do, it's a 2% lead. 2 of the levels are ties. The other 26 levels Magicians have the lead. Not only a lead, but from 16-18, 24-28, 34-38 and 44-48, Magicians own.

Alternating Summer's Flame and Winter's Frost to get around the recast time:
-3.88 dmg/mana. 234.58 DPS

So if you compare a Magician chaining Sun Vortex against a Druid alternating Summer's Flame and Winter's Frost, you don't see much of a disparity.

-3.92 dmg/mana vs. 3.88 dmg/mana: 1.02% Magician advantage.
-244.09 DPS vs. 234.58 DPS: 3.90% Magician advantage.

We're arguing over 0.04 dmg/mana and 10 DPS at level 65.

Scirocco has a point.

The historical comparison I did compared the "pure" DDs, the DDs without any restrictions, only. Is there any reason why the historical relationship between the "pure" DDs shouldn't continue into PoP?

Reguardless of whether bolts are DD's or not, is there any reason why the relationship between unrestricted druid vs. unrestricted mage DD's should significantly change after 3 expantions of similar growth?

So you really want to be the 2nd best healer(much better than shaman) and complain that you won't be the 2nd best "DD"er any more?

If you want to go by ratios, in kunark clerics could heal 10000pts and you could heal for 580. Should the ratios remain the same, or change as the game changes? Hmmm...

Nippo the trend should hold up, which is what some mages here are getting at. If you look at most lvls druids nuke worse than magicians. If this trend where to have continued, as it should have, Mages would still end up on top. Look at the lvls where maes get bolts those are the ones druids end up nuking better at i would guess(to lazy to check and it holds true for the last one). So using that trend in PoPat 61-63 druids should have a slight edge over mages(which they do) and after that lose it by a small margin(which they do). So really all this is doing is restoring relative pre-kunark relative power between casters, which is a very good thing in this case imho.

Look, if you mean to restict the argument to non-LoS restricted spells, then change the title of your post to "Let's ... have had better DDs" (which still isn't true, but at least the title fits your topic of discussion).

Nuking is inclusive of Bolts, since regardless of whether they are considered as "DDs" in the most strict sense, they are single-target instant damage spells, which can be subsituted for and interchanged with strict DDs in 99%+ of nuking situations. Their situational usage is identical, with Bolts just being slightly more difficult to apply, but not a fundamentally different damage application rate/radius (such as DoTs, AoEs, or Rains).

Now, either the title of your post is intentionally misleading and designed to make people think that Druids should nuke better over-all, or your comparison is lacking in scope.

If you are just bickering over straight DDs, then your argument is very trivial as other posters have pointed out. Original release Magicians out-DD'd Druids at nearly every level, and even when Druids were ahead it was just barely. That balance is very nearly followed in PoP. Making a comparison based just on Kunark - Luclin is flawed. You're not taking into account the original class structure and relative power of the game. In many ways, the original game was tested and balanced much more thuroughly than any of the expansions. It's well known that Kunark and Velious were extremely weak on upgrades for casters as a whole, especially INT casters. If you want to point to historical prescedent, look at original retail, not expansions.

By the way, your mantra of "class with best pets shouldn't have second best DDs" is down right silly. Necromancers have the best DoTs, the best undead manipulation spells, the best HP transferal spells, yet you don't seem to have a problem with them having the second best pets. An argument could be made that since Druids can be main healers in XP groups, they shouldn't get the second best DDs... or, that since Druids have the best Snares, etc, etc...

I calculated the average advantage Magician DDs had over Druids DDs from Denaeb2s table and got it to be 38%. I think the 'myth' of magicians used to be better nukers then druids is still alive and thriving.

So you really want to be the 2nd best healer(much better than shaman) and complain that you won't be the 2nd best "DD"er any more?


I suggest you look at this...
Priest Comparison (http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/priest_comparison.php)

Yeah uh Clerics have been the second best healers over all for quite some time.. We are third now with the new heals.

From the way the comparison looks, shaman only gain their advantage due to their very high mana regen from Cannibalize. Also the healing comparison is a comparison of Maximum HP healed per second. This is one aspect of healing, but i don't feel its what makes a healer powerfull. Efficiency is more important and based on that you are inferior only to clerics.

If you had better nukes than mages you would be the 2nd best nuker.

In PoP you get this.

Karana's Renewal
1: Healing 75% of the person's health (max 4680 hitpoints)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: Dru (L64)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Alteration
Allowable Targets: All
Beneficial: Beneficial

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 100.00 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana Cost: 600
Spell Duration: Instant
Casting Time: 10.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: The healing force of nature flows through you.
Spell cast on someone: An orc centurion is infused with the healing force of nature.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casting Animation: 43
Unknown Field 1: 100
Unknown Field 2: 99


4680 HP healed for 600 mana. Thats 7.8 Hit points healed per point of mana.

Shaman get no where close to that kind of efficiency, or Volume of hit points healed. Torpor is only a 4 to 1 ratio. The shaman In-complete heal(Kraggs Mending) is 1950 Hit points for 400 mana.

I have no problem with druids being the second best healers, it makes sense to me that a priest would be a good healer. Thats where the class is going while still remaining the 3rd best DDer. If you want to be 2nd best DDer you would need to give up your *Excellent* healing power.


Edit: I took another look at Thotts comparison and saw hes counting Torpor as always getting 6 ticks. I can't say whether this is true or not with Reinforcement Mastery 3 or not but i will concede that it is or he wouldn't use it. 1800 hp for 200 mana is an amazing ratio. Shaman can heal as well or better than a cleric or a Druid in an experience group with 100% uptime.

However, my point still stands. You have a tremendous amount of healing power. If you would like to have the 2nd best nukes, it would need to be decreased.

I wouldn't really trust any comparisons done by Thott. He tends to setup his "comparisons" to prove whatever his perception of the game is. His "comparison" of Bards to other classes was quite laughable and irrelevant.

Nevertheless, let's keep Healing hijacks out of Nuking (or was it DD, still waiting for that to be clarified?) threads.

Thank you Daneab, your post was useful to me. I didn't even realize that the original poster had absurdly assumed that magicians would continue using outdated nukes after they got better ones.

*sigh*
WHy are folsk getting into this silly pecker contest?

As usual, Lindara gets uptight over mages having good damage output while totally ignoring the fact druids can heal, buff, track, port. It's like moaning about a rogue doing damage when that's their prime job, sheesh.
Do druids get sh*tty research from hell? No. WHy do you think mages do?

Anyway, so what if druids got better nukes for a while, did I lose anything from that, no. Why should I worry it helps me in raids or groups.
Now that druids have very effective heals, the need for bigger nukes is *somewhat* lessened. I understand there's often 2 types of druid players, nukers/healers (by favourite thing in groups and specialization). So the oen wishing to do damage needed biog nukes to do this and by velious/luclin healing to damage was getting strained, menaing that nuking could be more efficient. Now, it seems, both are very effective?

Redorious
Archmage
karana

If this trend where to have continued, as it should have, Mages would still end up on top.


If we were unlimited in levels, I would be happy with druids getting their slightly better matching nuke a few levels after mages. But when you look at where they "end up," i.e., where they are when they reach the max level, then Druids end up on top, pretty clearly. That is undeniable. Mages never "ended up on top."

And perhaps I wasn't clear about my point above. If you want to look at the number of levels that mages have a better DD than druids, let's do the counting. Looking at numbers D gave us, I see 27 levels where mages have their DD with better damage than the druid (I counted the ones where the mage nuke was as low as two points better). That's 27 out of 60 levels, folks. That's less than half the levels in the game, for those poor in math. The 1-10 and 51-60 levels might have a level or two where mages did more damage, so let's say 30 out of 60 levels, as an estimate. Only half the levels in the game.

Furthermore, that's not the best way to look at that: look at time spent playing the game. How long did you play at those levels where the mage DD did more damage than the druid DD? How long have you played at level 49 or above?

For me, the latter was given above: 85% of my playing time has been at 49 or above. Now, using the 50% "level" number above, half of the remaining 15% my DD was the equal (or better) of the mage DD (assuming same time played per level).

So, for 92.5% of my playing time, my druid DD has been doing more damage than the mage DD.


P.S. It's not a "pecker contest." I'm not really upset about mages getting their new DDs. It gives me the opportunity to boost my own DDs to match. And that's the whole point of my argument. Showing the relationship between the "pure" DDs for mages and druids, and pointing out that the PoP DDs reverse it.

Here we go again let me do the comparitive list 51 65 maybe then we can finally have closure to this.

Magcians Druids Bolts
51 600 612 810
52 660 612 810
53 670 612 810
54 680 688 810
55 690 688 810
56 702 688 810
57 795 762 810
58 805 762 810
59 815 1024 1024
60 1005 1150 1024
61 1005 1150 1992
62 1400 1150 1994
63 1400 1150 1996
64 1400 1350 1998
65 1550 1465 2000

Even with your ignorant views on how Druids always nuked better than us post 50 there is a slight power shift that druids end up on top in DD damage but you still werent dding better than us exclusively past lev 50 between levels 52-54 and between 55-58 we dded by your definition of a dd better than you so that leaves us 50/50. If you included bolts you would of nuked worse than us from lev 49-58 become even with us at 59 then at 60 have a nuke better than ours. I wasnt trying to hide anything.

So it becomes mages where better nukers 33 out of not 60 but the 44 last lvls of the current game. It is NOT 60 as scirocco claims for lvls 1-15 are left out due to their low relevance. And t othose who want to claim this ist a pecker comparison please sit down and look at the nukes. The druids one is less than a 100 points behind the mage oe a the same lvl. While the difference may seem big when you look at the numbers its an almost trivial point.

The "percentage of my playing time" argument is absurd. VI never based anything on how much time a class would spend at a given level, it was always balanced in character level increments. Percentage of playing time is an arbitrary measuring stick created by Scircocco alone when he saw he was losing his own argument that he started on his own terms.

Give it up already. You don't have a point, and no matter how many times you restructure the comparison with arbitrary rules created by yourself, it still won't make your argument valid.

I calculated the average advantage Magician DDs had over Druids DDs from Denaeb2s table and got it to be 38%. I think the 'myth' of magicians used to be better nukers then druids is still alive and thriving.

And yet wizards keep trying to say druids are very close to wizards for nuking like 80 or 90%, even better in some cases (heh) I guess if druids are 38% of magicians than magicians blow the doors off wizards. Sorry, something stinks.

Reguardless of whether bolts are DD's or not, is there any reason why the relationship between unrestricted druid vs. unrestricted mage DD's should significantly change after 3 expantions of similar growth?
seeing as druids have already had HUGE upgrades in relation to mages already in "unrestricted dds", i fail to see where youre arguement lies.

you now have both fire AND cold to choose from, wheres for all practical purposes you only had fire before.

you could not efficiently chain nuke before either, as you had to use lower level spells to do it effectively since you only had one nuke line. you now have 2 nuke lines increasing your burst dps signifigantly relative to ours. and as we all know, unless a druid is alternate chain nuking, he cant chain nuke very well at all.

you want to ignore all these relative upgrades youve had at our expense, but when WE finally get an upgrade, you want to say mages are "overstepping our relative bounds".
its just not true, druids have been upgraded WAY more than mages have, and theres not a person here who i think doesnt know that.

anyway its a moot point, as always the squeeky wheel with the largest player base gets the grease, no matter how wrong they are. grats, my pet sure is as useful as all your buffs and heals isnt it? :roll eyes:

oh and btw since no ones really pointed it out, its not a "myth" that mages are better nukers, and we are again going to be better nukers.

why? because bolts are nukes, and 99.9% of the players consider them as such. our bolts are (well except for the kunark one /rude), and are still going to be better than any druid nukes.

Look at the spells, ok. You can go to casters realm and get the information on the spells. There was nothing shady going on here. I went on a level by level basis because the info he gave was skewed to make it seem that druids nukes were better.

Yes, pets can be as useful as heals or buffs depending on what you're talking about. As far as druids getting upgraded more than mages? Prove it.

Here's the bottonline though: All the wizards that moaned about druid nukes getting upgraded better not be coming to our door anymore to complain. Look no further than one of your fellow INT casters to get incensed at now because thy brother just became thine enemy.

Actually wizards have for the most part been very supportive of our upgrades in nukes. They just hate you druids. Also on your upgrades compared to ours I can think of a few.

Moonfire
Tunares Renewal
Protection of Cabbage
Kiting restriction removed
The 10% penalty on heals removed

Mage upgrades

Focus Items
Pets hit a little harder. the rest arent upgrades they are work arounds to bad pathing.

Now nerfs

Druids Nerfs
ummm
ummm
ummm
cant think of any druid only nerfs.

Magician nerfs
Coth (huge nerf to our raiding ablility almost completey destroyed the Magician Class during Velious)
Swords of Runes
Mod Rods
Rods of mystical Transvergence (arguably the biggest nerf in the game, ever)

seeing as druids have already had HUGE upgrades in relation to mages already in "unrestricted dds", i fail to see where youre arguement lies.

Thats because you're ignoring his arguement. It's been shown your opinion of "huge upgrades in relation to mages" is wrong.

you now have both fire AND cold to choose from, wheres for all practical purposes you only had fire before.

If you'd read people's responses to the last time you posted this garbage you might stop looking like an idiot we're just going to ignore. As has been said, Druids have had Ice pre kunark, tied for being their best nuke with the fire nuke worse only because of resist rate. Kunark druids had Frost which was their second best nuke, outdoors druids also had a good magic line. Yes, thats 3 lines of nukes since day one, fire cold and magic to your 2 my dear. Please just go away if all you're going to do is spam us, and posting in class balance when you don't know a thing about the class is joke to begin with.

Actually wizards have for the most part been very supportive of our upgrades in nukes. They just hate you druids. Also on your upgrades compared to ours I can think of a few.

Moonfire
Tunares Renewal
Protection of Cabbage
Kiting restriction removed
The 10% penalty on heals removed

Mage upgrades

Focus Items
Pets hit a little harder. the rest arent upgrades they are work arounds to bad pathing.

Why do you list Moonfire and Cabbage? Want me to list some Luclin spells magicians get? Transom's line, pet heals, maelstrom, self mana regen buff increase. Happy now, the magician list of "upgrades" is bigger and considering my mana regen from my buffs is the same post luclin as pre I'd say mages come out ahead. As for kiting, i.e. DOTs working at full on moving mobs, and penalty removed, how about the agro changes wrt pets or pets not being able to break mez or magician pet haste cap fixed? We'll assume the pet XP changes benefit both classes equally although we know thats bull****.

I'm not even going to bother with your nerfs, they're just as silly. You didn't even try, why should I?

Driuds have mage based nukes but they are outdoor only except for fury of air which is pretty much crap. This is the first time I have ever heard someone say that bolts are not considered dd spells.

Mages have Point Blank Mage/Fire DDs
Druids have Point Blank Fire/Cold DDs

Mages have Fire/Mage Based Rains
Druids have Cold Based Rains

Mages have fire based point blank AoE
Druids have mage based ranged point blank AoE

Basically in terms of resist types druids and mages are equal. If a mobs is fire resistant a mage can use magic. If a mob is magic resistant a mage can use fire.

Now in the times that mages can't use fire/magic dds they have pets that can attack via melee and the water pet suppliment the mages lack of cold power. It cast a 120dds spell which is cold based, and the epic procs a 143dd spell which saves vs. cold (he procs alot too) ;) . So mages never had cold based spells but we have far more damage options then druids. We are a damage class and there should be no issue about it. Either way with the crappy nukes i have now, me and my epic will own a druid in damage. My epic pet alone sustain a higher damage output then a druid over the course of say 10mins.

Wezloc

Moot point. See the spell changes. Note that mages now have 0 recast on their DDs, according to Lucy. Hope that is accurate.

Whats wrong with giving the best pet class good DDs? Mages are *supposed* to be the most damaging class over an extended period. They are the ONLY class that has no defensive capablities, all throughout EQ they pay for that with being able to do damage, up til velious where mages were all but useless, then luclin where mages were given rods to fill the void. Rods are gone and mages are again THE damage class in EQ, no defense and very little utility. They cannot root, snare, port, heal for 5k, evac, they do DAMAGE, and they should do well more then anyone else in the game. Mages have THE MOST situational damage of any class, if a mob AE's for alot your pet is useless, if an area is not pet friendly your pet is useless, theres already HALF of their dps gone, at least. Also remember mages do not get cold DD's, fire and magic only can be very limiting. Never seen people with so much whine so much, its rather embarassing to me to be associated in the same game...

our dds have always had 0 recast delay, we were designed for damage.

Quote by L1ndara:
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And yet wizards keep trying to say druids are very close to wizards for nuking like 80 or 90%, even better in some cases (heh) I guess if druids are 38% of magicians than magicians blow the doors off wizards. Sorry, something stinks.
------------------------------------------------------------
Magicians follows close behind wizards during pre-50s. Druids arent anywhere near wizards during those levels (16-50), but the upgraded Moonfire doesnt only break the trend compared to magicians. So there arent anything that stinks unless its something near yourself.


Quote by L1ndara:
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Why do you list Moonfire and Cabbage?
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Because Moonfire was upgraded during the caster rebalancing and Cabbage was added.

our dds have always had 0 recast delay

Then you have nothing to complain about, right? :)

Scirocco, your argument is flawed on two fronts.

First, let me say that a recast time of 2.50 seconds or under means nothing, I've tested it. Druids can chain-cast Moonfire as well as I can chain-cast Shock of Fiery Blades. Moonfire has a recast delay of 2.50 seconds while Shock of Fiery Blades has a recast delay of 0.0 seconds.

The recast timer starts counting after the spell is cast or memorized. It does NOT start counting after your spell gems refresh (I.E. it does not start counting after spellcasting becomes available).

The only situation where this is matters, is when you memorize the spell and want to cast it right away. You will notice then, that Shock of Fiery Blades is castable right after memorizing it, while Moonfire takes some time.

All direct damage spells leave a gap of 2.5 seconds after they're cast when no spellcasting is available, so Moonfire becomes available just as spellcasting becomes available.


Second, I think that leaving Bolts out is illogical.

Nuking is primarily defined as dealing direct damage to a single target.

Nuking is NOT defined as dealing direct damage to four closely grouped targets while kiting them, or dealing direct damage to fifty closely grouped chain-stunned targets. Now magi put druids to shame in AE groups, but we don't argue stuff like that - now, don't argue that you can outdamage us when you're quad-kiting!

Bolts have the purpose of dealing direct damage to a single target, so it's a nuke. We're discussing nuking, so Bolts should be discussed.

Bolts are slightly more situational than point-blank nukes because of the LoS restriction, but then aren't all nukes situational because of their resistance check? What about nukes with a negative or positive resistance adjustment, that makes them less or more situational right?

I know!! Why don't we discount all nukes in this Nuking Discussion except for Lures, because Lures are the least situational nukes, and all other nukes have situational restrictions!!

Please either include Bolts in your discussion, or rename the title of your post to "Let's dispel the myth that mages have been better nukers, not counting bolts".

"First, let me say that a recast time of 2.50 seconds or under means nothing, I've tested it."

To you, it may mean nothing. To people who cast a spell, use an instaclick item, and attempt to cast another spell, the recast time means something. This method of reducing casting delay is widely known and employed by nukers.

I learned something today, thanks for telling me that! I stand corrected.

Druids can chain-cast Moonfire as well as I can chain-cast Shock of Fiery Blades, while Moonfire has a recast delay of 2.50 seconds while Shock of Fiery Blades has a recast timer of 0.0 seconds.

That used to be the case with insta-clicking. Hasn't been true for several months now. MF and other druid nukes have a hardwired refresh time, and if you try to cast it too fast, you get told that Spell Recovery Time has not been met. It's a nerf that mages and wizards escaped, I think.

*shrugs*

Not really worth arguing about anymore. It's moot. As I said above, if mages want to call themselves the second best nukers, go knock yourselves out.

Time to move on to other things.

Quote by L1ndara:
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And yet wizards keep trying to say druids are very close to wizards for nuking like 80 or 90%, even better in some cases (heh) I guess if druids are 38% of magicians than magicians blow the doors off wizards. Sorry, something stinks.
------------------------------------------------------------
Magicians follows close behind wizards during pre-50s. Druids arent anywhere near wizards during those levels (16-50), but the upgraded Moonfire doesnt only break the trend compared to magicians. So there arent anything that stinks unless its something near yourself.

Lava Bolt(49) 810 for 310 fire 2.61 and Shock of Swords(44) 600 for 250 magic 2.4

Starfire(49) 612 for 250 fire 2.45 and Ice(49) 612 for 250 cold 2.45

So please explain how magicians follow closely and druids aren't anywhere near again sub 50? Note of course that I'm just representing information already in this thread, in the very first message in fact, which seems silly for me to have to do, but there you go.

Your so called pre 50 trend was broken post 50 long before moonfire and before Velious let alone Luclin, of course, all thats in the first message too.

That used to be the case with insta-clicking. Hasn't been true for several months now. MF and other druid nukes have a hardwired refresh time, and if you try to cast it too fast, you get told that Spell Recovery Time has not been met. It's a nerf that mages and wizards escaped, I think.

There is a minimum time between the end of the casting of the last spell being cast and the end of the cast time of the current spell being cast. This is where the spell recovery comes in, it's about 3.5 seconds I believe, if you have a sub 1 second cast spell (yaulp) you can get this without an instaclicky. Thats a bug VI isn't bothering to fix, but with PoPs sub 1 second heals I can bet they'll start getting a lot of bug reports about it suddenly.

The recast is slightly different. It's when gems are darkened out because you aren't allowed to cast them yet. Most spells have none and so if you click your jboots after having cast a spell your gems will light up and you can immediatly cast again (and if the spell is shorter than 3.5 seconds you run the risk of the spell recovery time problem.) However spells with recast times on them, like all druid nukes since March 19th 2002, the day that shall live in infamy, won't light up until the recast time has been met.

VI gave us quick damage, went "oh @#%$" and then basically nerfed the living @#%$ out of it with the recast times. Wish druids had gotten subtlety and magicians quick damage, that way magicians could spend 18 AA points just getting back the speed lost from having their nukes nerfed and we could nuke for 20% less agro. And of course despite the description of the quick damage AA it doesn't apply to our DOT spells which it should.

I need to stop reading posts regarding druid nerfs... Where'd I put my nitro?

Quote by L1ndara:
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Lava Bolt(49) 810 for 310 fire 2.61 and Shock of Swords(44) 600 for 250 magic 2.4

Starfire(49) 612 for 250 fire 2.45 and Ice(49) 612 for 250 cold 2.45
------------------------------------------------------------
Ice Comet(49) 1110 for 400 cold 2.78.

And for level 44 spells:
Conflagration(44) 606 for 250 fire 2.4.
Shock of Swords(44) 580 for 250 magic 2.3.
Firestrike(39) 302 for 155 fire 1.95.


Quote by L1ndara:
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So please explain how magicians follow closely and druids aren't anywhere near again sub 50? Note of course that I'm just representing information already in this thread, in the very first message in fact, which seems silly for me to have to do, but there you go.
------------------------------------------------------------
Looking at the numbers above I get the clear impression that magicians are somewhat close to wizards and druids are not near at all for levels 44 and 49 that you picked to look at.

Notice that level 49 is one of the 4 levels in the range 16-49 that druids has a higher damage then magicians, if bolts are excluded. Not excluding bolts so do magicans more damage at all those levels.

The problem with Bolts is that true, they have a limit compared to normal DDs. But as they can be used without any real trouble during those levels, so do a magician get a bolt several times instead of a normal DD. This leads to some drawing the conclusion that magicians was bad at those levels, while they in fact was very good as they just got a bolt instead.

just ignore liandra, its pretty obvious shes the groves version of rthen.

Lava Bolt(49) 810 for 310 fire 2.61 and Shock of Swords(44) 600 for 250 magic 2.4

Starfire(49) 612 for 250 fire 2.45 and Ice(49) 612 for 250 cold 2.45

Looking at the numbers above I get the clear impression that magicians are somewhat close to wizards and druids are not near at all for levels 44 and 49 that you picked to look at.

So 2.45 fire/cold is "not near" and 2.61 fire 2.4 magic "somwhat close."

What color is the sky in your world?

Quote by L1ndara:
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So 2.45 fire/cold is "not near" and 2.61 fire 2.4 magic "somwhat close."
------------------------------------------------------------
2.61 is closer to 2.78 then 2.45 is. Difficult?

2.3 is also closer to 2.4 then 1.95 is.


Quote by L1ndara:
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What color is the sky in your world?
------------------------------------------------------------
Its overcast, so somewhat white/grey.

just ignore liandra, its pretty obvious shes the groves version of rthen.

Noonie, you're posting on the druid class balancing board. You repeatedly say blatently wrong things that are apparent to anyone that doesn't have their head shoved up their @#%$ and can look at a spell list. You repeatedly post druids didn't get cold damage until Luclin which is obviously wrong and despite this being pointed out to you, you continue to repeat this. Instead of compare ratios of spells properly you combine multiple spells together so that you can distort the numbers in your favour then present that as facts, and again, when that is pointed out you ignore it and continue to repeat your bull****.

It's obvious you have an agenda that has nothing to do with druid class balancing. Go away troll.

Quote by L1ndara:
------------------------------------------------------------
You repeatedly post druids didn't get cold damage until Luclin which is obviously wrong and despite this being pointed out to you, you continue to repeat this.
------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm, as far as I get it so does noonie say that Druids didnt get a cold nuke pre-50. They do get a fire debuff with a DD component. But this isnt a cold nuke unless you count your roots as magic nukes as well.

Yah ice is a debuff with a damage component. It is all or nothing and focus items that affect dd spells do not enhance it. Basically a mage bracer gives starfire 20% random damage but does nothing for ice because it isn't a dd spell. On the other hand it works just find for our bolts. =) Maybe that is because bolts are DD spells lol.

Wezloc

Just ignore Noonie, she needs to either go away or start bouncing. :p

Hmmm....could Noonie be STANOS?

Bouncing...bouncing...bouncing...

Tune in next week for another episode of "As the Stanos Bounces".

You repeatedly say blatently wrong things that are apparent to anyone that doesn't have their head shoved up their @#%$ and can look at a spell list.
funny i was thinking the same thing about you.

You repeatedly post druids didn't get cold damage until Luclin which is obviously wrong and despite this being pointed out to you, you continue to repeat this.
we are talking about NUKES, i.e. bolts or "traditional nukes". anything which does damage to 1 target instantly without any other detrimental or beneficial side effects is fine.

dots do not count.
rains do not count.
pillars do not count.

please stop talking about your cold pillars and dots, they are not important to this discussion.

Instead of compare ratios of spells properly you combine multiple spells together so that you can distort the numbers in your favour then present that as facts, and again, when that is pointed out you ignore it and continue to repeat your bull****.

what do you think is a fairer comparison? comparing a level 24 mage spell, to a level 29 druid spell...

or averaging out the mage and druids spells throughout the 20s?

average does just what the name implies... it smooths out the hitches, the highs and lows, to get a general picture. its the fairest way to compair anything.

It's obvious you have an agenda that has nothing to do with druid class balancing. Go away troll.


someone saying something that you dont like doesnt make them a troll. if anything you are displaying more trollish behavior than i am, as you consistantly resort to personal attacks in this debate instead of focusing on the issues at hand.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You repeatedly say blatently wrong things that are apparent to anyone that doesn't have their head shoved up their @#%$ and can look at a spell list.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


funny i was thinking the same thing about you.

The difference of course being that you lack the ability to point out anything I've said being wrong. If you'd care to back up your statement I'd be happy to listen, until then you're wasting our time.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You repeatedly post druids didn't get cold damage until Luclin which is obviously wrong and despite this being pointed out to you, you continue to repeat this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


we are talking about NUKES, i.e. bolts or "traditional nukes". anything which does damage to 1 target instantly without any other detrimental or beneficial side effects is fine.

dots do not count.
rains do not count.
pillars do not count.

please stop talking about your cold pillars and dots, they are not important to this discussion.

Ice and Frost aren't dots, they're not rains, they're not pillars. They are DDs. This has been pointed out repeatedly. It's apparent on the spell lists. You are wrong, your arguement is wrong, and had you bothered trying to read counter arguements or reasonably defend your arguement instead of spam us with wrong information repeatedly you'd have seen this.

Ice and Frost aren't dots, they're not rains, they're not pillars. They are DDs. This has been pointed out repeatedly. It's apparent on the spell lists. You are wrong, your arguement is wrong, and had you bothered trying to read counter arguements or reasonably defend your arguement instead of spam us with wrong information repeatedly you'd have seen this.
first of all, frost is a dd, i never said it wasnt. frost is a kunark spell.

i could be wrong about ice, i admit i just pulled the info off of eqcaster, but it seems to me that it has an 18 second duration to it, making me think its a dot.

even if it is instant damage and i am wrong, if we arent going to count bolts, we certainly shouldnt count ice due to the fact both spells have non traditional dd effects.

also, i believe ice cannot be chain nuked due to the fact it has a tremendous recast delay. frost is so much of an upgrade to this spell it might as well be a second line of nukes.

Druids Vs Mages? wtf....


Its like comparing apples and oranges the reasons I would invite a druid onto a raid are alot different as to why I would invite a mage onto a raid.

Same goes for exp groups.. and druids sit here and wonder why there is alot of disliking of/and towards the druid community as a whole.

People overall in EQ hate druids because they are seen as greedy. Well this thread and many others like this one supports that claim. Wanting to have the 2nd best nukes and the 2nd best healer role in the game is greedy. Being 2nd best healer and having the best pet in the game is very different. Having the best pet in the game I as a mage can replace ummm no one lol.

A druid with a 4650 healing spell can stand in for a cleric easy. Considering that on most raids CH is hitting the MA for only about 3500hps of healing because the CH rotation has to be tight. 4650hps of healing is plenty enough to stand in there and heal very affectively on a rotation. The very fact that you can get in on a CH rotation means you shouldn't also be able to stand in for the #1 magical damage nuker in the game.

Clerics have very limited damage because they get the best heals. It is MO and others that druids are way to close to cleric healing to have such offensive power. The second best nukes and heals in the game isn't fair and when people in the druid community make insane claims that druids were better nukers then mages pre-kunark when the chart clearly shows that from levels 15 to 50 mages out nuke druids over 70% of those levels.

It is why when we got upgrades Wizards were happy for us, but when druids got upgrades Wizards were pissed. It is because most classes dislike druids because they are greedy and want it all. Threads like this just make people chuckle and it reaffirms what they think about the class as a whole. Go look at the wizard message board. They are making fun of you because harmony got nerfed. When mages got nerfed and paladins they came out in defense. You all need to ask yourselves why is that? Why does everyone hate you? Are you the self-absorbed kids that believe it is because they are jealous of you? lol. No it is because they see you as the most unbalanced class in the game and they are sick of VI doing everything you want just because you are 60% of the player base.

Wezloc
Arch Mage
Master of the Orb

Wanting to have the 2nd best nukes and the 2nd best healer role in the game is greedy.

And wanting the second best nukes and the best pets in the game is not? LOL...

Moreover, if the logic of the mages here is valid, druids only want the third best nukes, since the mage "bolt" spells are the second best.

As for the unreasoned hatred by some wizards and mages for druids, I'm sorry, but you've obviously mistaken me for someone who cares....

pets are an offensive ability. nukes are an offensive ability.
we have no palpable supportive abilities. we die without our pets (whom are purposely <strong>programed</strong> to be unpredictable).

when you combine both our lack of support and defense, with the potent offense we are fighting for, we make <strong>a whole class</strong>. that is balance.

druids however are one of the most utility oriented, defensive, supportive classes in the game. no, you should NOT do comparable damage to a mage. your nukes <strong>already</strong> are too close to a wizards, yet you ask for more, and try to prevent upgrades to underpowered classes (hihi mages). the only verant even <em> humors</em> your outrageous requests, is because you are 60% of the player base.

i totally agree with wezloc on this one. druids are getting way overpowered, way fast, and still ask for more, gotta love em.

Noonie comparing a druid to a mage like that is like comparing chalk with cheese.

We are totaly different classess.

I've said before. I dont care if mages get better nukes than druids or vice versa. This isnt a competition who can be the best class which you seem to make it out to be and yes some druids here are doing to also.

The problem is that druid nukes other than the bolt line have always been better than mages and before the changes the new druid nukes were considerably less powerfull than mage upgrades.


Think of it like this.

For example:

Necro pet gets upgraded in PoP over the top of Mage pets. Which means necros get better pets in PoP.

Now. Historically how have pets been? Mages have always had (to my knowledge correct me if im wrong) better pets than necros. So how would mages react to necros getting better pets?

Doesnt matter if necros DOT and mages nuke and well if Necros can FD and fear and Mages can summon focus items to enhance their spells etc. This isnt the comparison their totaly different classess other than the fact they have high level pets which is the comparson.


Tils

Druid semi-CH changed the outlook of druid class in regards to balance.
just a thought ;)

Druid semi-CH changed the outlook of druid class in regards to balance.


Actually, it simply restored the balance (well, partially, anyway) that existed before with regard to healing power. It doesn't provide a justification for druid DDs to be less powerful than mage DDs, when they never were before.

Quote by Scirocco:
------------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't provide a justification for druid DDs to be less powerful than mage DDs, when they never were before.
------------------------------------------------------------
Never? What about levels 4,8, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 53, 55, 56, 57 and 58? Thats 37 levels out of 60 where magicians gets more powerful DDs then druids. Most of the rest of the levels so are magicians and druids equal and a very small number are druids better.

Those are the facts. Stating that druids always been better is an outright lie.

Thats 37 levels out of 60 where magicians gets more powerful DDs then druids.


Which doesn't disagree with what I said, when you compare the comparable DDs. All you're saying is that mages go their comparable DD a few levels ahead of druids until the end game, which no one disputes.

Of course, a more revealing comparison would be playing time. For how much of my playing time as a druid have I had a DD more powerful than a mage? At least 75%.

So let's get away from the silly statistics, shall we, and look at what matters: the comparable DDs, based on mana and damage.

Quote by Scirocco:
------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, a more revealing comparison would be playing time. For how much of my playing time as a druid have I had a DD more powerful than a mage? At least 75%.
------------------------------------------------------------
Not everyone takes breaks from leveling just to enjoy those few good levels where they are better.


Quote by Scirocco:
------------------------------------------------------------
So let's get away from the silly statistics, shall we, and look at what matters: the comparable DDs, based on mana and damage.
------------------------------------------------------------
Thats an oxymoron. It is silly statistics to compare only nukes of the same mana cost. The new nukes magicians gets before druids are not only higher damage, but more efficient as well. If you doubt that, then make a table similar to the damage each level with best spell but with damage/mana with best spell.

and they are sick of VI doing everything you want just because you are 60% of the player base

This absolutely kills me.
Reality check here. EQ is a business and a multimillion dollar business at that.

60 percent of the player base is 60 percent of VIs revenue.

If 60 percent of all the people who eat at McDonalds ask for Blue cheese on the burgers and 40 percent flat out refuse, Don't you think McDonalds will consider a blue cheese burger? You bet your @#%$ they will.

I could care less if my Nukes are better, equal too or less than Mages. I only care about my nukes. If mages nukes are better, all the power to em. I dig mages and I play a mage as well.

I'm just getting a little sick of folks bitching that VI considers requests made by the people who hold 60 percent of their revenue.

I dearly hope that none of you folks that are upset that Vi wants to listen to the majoriy of the player base never go into business for yourself as you are destined to file Chapter 11 with your lack of customer service focus.

Congratulations on your nukes my Magi friends. You kick @#%$ and I truly hope you continue to kick @#%$.

As for us, maybe we woudn't cry so much for upgrades to make us more desireable if so many folks didn't hold prejudice against our class and would let us in your groups.

I don't care how bad my nukes suck or dont suck, I'm just sick of having to beg VI for better stuff to entice the narrow minded EQ players I run accross into believing I have somthing viable to contribute to a group.

I have yet to group with folks who appeared to be disatisfied with my performance or contributing abilities.

The druid prejudice is based on lack of knowledge and pure mindless hatred. It's sad that one of the biggest issues affecting our world can't be put aside for a short time each day to live in harmony in a fictional cartoon world that is supposed to be fun.

There things you can do to a business that, while seeming to be helpful to 60 percent of your clientel can easily piss off the other 40 percent. Taking your analogy, what if McDonalds put Blue Cheese on ALL of their cheeseburgers? Yeah that other 40 percent will go elsewhere. Reasoning by analogy is almost ALWAYS flawed.

And I have news for you, the so called "druid hatred" arises from, in part, from how posters from other classes get treated when they post opposing the popular opinion here : being told you are stupid repeatedly, being class labeled, or just being told you are wrong without ANY reasoning as to why. It arises in part from a petition where you outlined the things that this site felt was needed to make the class balanced. Guess what? It was ALL implemented. The griping continues. Side effect : people tired of a class that represents a large portion of the player base saying they are underpowered. Why are so many playing the class if it is so vastly underpowered? Dont dodge the question and answer it truthfully and honestly. Druid abilities taken in their entirety represent a very convenient, moderately powerful, flexible playing experience. You cant do anything the best but you do many things extremely well. The classses that do a few things quite well and other things just plain badly are sick and tired of you looking over their abilities and saying "Gee, Id like to do that" or "I think I should do this almost as well as that guy" and Verant caves in gives it to you.

Long and short, STOP GRIPING, your situation isnt anywhere near as bad as you think it is. But since you already know Verant will cave to you if you gripe long enough and long enough, griping is the easiest route to getting whatever it is the Druid class wants.


Belkram Marrwolf

Belk,

Your quite correct in many of your points.
You will notice I didn't suggest or imply McDonalds get rid of regular burgers in favor of Blue Cheese. I reccomended they add them. Along the same lines, I have never suggested VI nerf/change another plase in favor of making druids more palettable. I don't support the changes in one class to benefit another.

You will also notice that I am not pushing for any changes/Improvement in the class.

IMHO the biggest problem with the druid class is misperception.

As for why other folks are not receiving warm welcomes when they come here to me is fairly obvious. They come here to tell us why we are overpowered, disliked, whiners and suck. Rarely do I see a post from other classes in support of druids. Occasionally from a cleric I have seen it but more often than not, folks come here to cause unrest with negative comments about our class. ( note: I find your post to be respectful and non inflamatory and do appreciate that )

You may notice I never post anythign negative ( actually anythign at all ) on another classes website as the only thing is does is cause animosity and there is already too much of that going around.

I'll I want to change is the way we as a class are perceived and treated so I can have an easier time getting groups, get 65, some nifty spells and slay some cool beasties.

A lofty goal? perhaps, but one that follows a path of enjoyment and a feeling of accomplishment.

Offhand, I always thought that mages should be better at nuking than druids. I personally felt the "nuke" levels should be Wizard, Mage, and then Druid. Of course with all this summoning items stuff that mages do now, I guess they're more diversified than pure damage dealing like they used to be.

Still, they should have better mana / damage ratios and faster recast times than us. They're offensive while we can heal and nuke. :)

Might be off topic, but ....

There is no force more destructive than nature. :) That's my justification for nuking. About half of my fellow druids here feel the call of the nurturing side. Not I. I do it, but only to facilitate my destructive side. I revel in the trembles of an earthquake, I bathe in the molten lava and choking ash a volcano spills forth. The unbridle fury of a hurricane with it's 200 mph winds and bursts of destructive lightning brings back fond childhood memories. The mind-numbing cold of a blizzard and the heat/speed of a forest/plains fire leaves me awestricken.

What force can stand against nature when it's wrath is invoked? My version of a druid is Nature's Fury incarnate with one hand raised in praise to his goddess and the other covered in the blood of her enemies. :) I am a priest, but not all priests are nurturers.

hehe...I forgot...Roleplay has nothing to do with EQ. :) Continue with the discussion, it's been interesting to date. :)

Racmoor

Racmoor is a druid after my own heart. A true worshipper of the destructive chaos that is nature in action.


Of course, a more revealing comparison would be playing time. For how much of my playing time as a druid have I had a DD more powerful than a mage? At least 75%.
------------------------------------------------------------
Not everyone takes breaks from leveling just to enjoy those few good levels where they are better.

LOL. Znail, are you really that dense or are you letting your elementals do your thinking for you? I didn't take breaks from leveling, and that 75% of the time that I have been outnuking your sorry little whiny butt has been when I've been maxxed out at 50 or 60. Sorry, laddie. :)

I've been watching this thread with some mild interest.

I find it amusing that people will invest so much energy into creating "things" to hate. In the real world, we choose tangible, foolish things, like race, or creed, or sex, or religion or or or...

In EQ we feel a similar need to creat distinction and revel in base and senseless hate mongering. Ah! Brave new world.

Having said that, let me make a few comments.

First, the assertion that magicians are threatened by powerful druid nukes is patently absurd. Druids will never approach the DPS that Magicians are capable of, except perhaps under extremely unusual or specific circumstances. You also have the unique ability to summon items that actually increase the efficiency of your nukes, where all other classes must invest significant capital to purchase a comparible item. While I realize that this thread is dealing specific with direct damage nukes, I feel obligated to say that you simply cannot assess the viability of a class based upon a single ability. What's occurring here is the proverbial not seeing the forest for the trees. Or I guess more specificly, ignoring the forest and examine on particular tree...

I think if you examine the overall net effect of how these classess attack, you will find magician to perform significantly better in terms of total damage output. While I lack both the interest and the time to an investigation, I offer this bit of ancedotal evidence: In raids, the group with the epic magician succeed in getting exp more often then any other group, this includes groups with wizards (This has changed since the wizard has maxed out her SCF) Very occasionally did a druid get experience over a magician, and usually because the magician neglected to to attack with his pet early enough.

So, unless you're going to engage in an intelligent and comprahensive investigation of these classes, this discussion is just a waste of time. Since you doggedly insist on investigation only a very narrow range of spells that we both access to, you will not be able to come up with any meaningful analysis.

Maple Emeraldleaf
Karana Server
Pact of Aegis
Forged Alliance

Ok I am going to have to disagree with Maple here (I even know the mage she's talking about :) about why the group with Ob is getting all the exp.

It isn't that the mage is better then the wizard then the druid or any order you'd like it is who each is grouped with. I've been in groups where my group takes at least 70% of the kills and that is with neither wizard or mage or shaman being in my group. I've also been in groups which are not the exp group.

In a raid, it isn't one person who makes an exp group it is the group make up, class, level, equipment and how you play your toon that all contribute to who gets exp.

I spent many of my pre-50 years duoing with a mage and I know how awsome they are, but then again we are just as awsome but in different ways :)

Keryia Winterwolf
Karana

The central thrust of my argument, though, is that you can't focus merely on one particle facet of a class and yell "unbalanced" or "unfair".

As things stand now, both classes are viable and appear to function just fine. I think we're just witnessing a case of nuke envy :)

i read the thread from the beginning to the end and there is one aspect that I saw left out and i am a little perplexed as to why. Scicorocco, you pointed out that you didn't want to add bolts in as they are extremely situational, stating that if you didn't have LoS you couldn't cast it. In the same sence then shouldn't you disqualify the Druids Magic line as if you are indoors it is useless? To me these both have the similar restrictions on them. If you are going to include one, then you should include the other.

Wezloc, you are nothing more then a Troll. you come here stating that we shouldn't badmouth other classes yet you sit there and and call us Whiney bastards. Should I now look at all the Mages and Wizards and say the same thing? Its people like you who give classes a bad name. every class has them but everyone loves to point out the druid ones and use that as an excuse. you also point out that Druids come here to do nothing more then whine, well i hate to tell you but there are more posts here then just your so called "Whinning" posts. What do you want to bet that if i went to any other class board i can find a couple of whiners there as well? Do us all a favor and add something more constructive, Doesn't have to be agreeable, or go away.

It has never really mattered to me who really has better nukes and I for one have never compared myself to a mage. there are just too many things that are different about both classes that the comparison should have never been made in the first place.

Just an outside opinion from a wizard. (and yes, I know it's my first post, not trolling, just only recently decided to start checking out other class boards)

I really think Neakkil's last paragraph summed it up perfectly. This is a comparison that should have never even been made. It's very hard to stand on historical viewpoints when you're talking about an evolving game. Things change, class perceptions change. I mean the design team has changed what 2, 3 times now since original EQ was released?

Hell, my own class went from (in VI/SOE's words) from the master of magical damage, to the masters of fast direct damage to the masters of translocational abilities. Whether you agree with it or not, the truth is Druids seem to have been moved to a more 'priestly' role with thier severly upgraded heals. You can claim that was done to restore lost balance. But the truth is, only the designers know if that was the case or not. And from what I've seen, it would appear they aren't sharing that viewpoint.

...shouldn't you disqualify the Druids Magic line as if you are indoors it is useless


I don't believe I did. If you are referring to our magic-based AoEs, then those were excluded, just like the bolts. Or were you referring to something else?

He was referring to the stuns I think. Anyway i cmae here to say one thing so here i go.

LET THIS @#%$ TOPIC DIE.

Christs sake PoP is out the nukes are finalized the whining won out, for better or for worse. Doesnt matter seeing as how mages still beat down druids in DD with bolts.

Now to those of you who are saying you cant exclude bolts because it makes mages look weak please stop your embarrising yourself. He may have excluded it when talking about realtive power before PoP but he excluded it afterwards to. For those that are slow he didnt ask for a 2k nuke to match your bolt he asked for a 1550 nuke to match your nuke. So in other words if you include bolts the whole way through mages still win out and scirroco got his way.

Now i hope this topic will just die down its not that big an issue.

I read through the Whole thread once then glanced back at the first post and didn't check it entirely. I was referring to Careless lightning in your original post. its outdoors only stun DD spell. Since I only glanced at it quick the second time, I thaught you posted the entire line in your list of comparisons. Rereading it I see that is the only one. My mistake.

noonie pwns...

Nuff said...

Not counting mage bolts is silly its like not counting ranger arrows .....

I personally think the argument is quite silly.
I could careless if a druid can hit for more damage than me at certain levels. It’s not going to stop me from wanting to combo with them.

The first time I grouped with a druid was at lvl 9 in the snake pit area in BlackBurrow. We ended up grouping together till lvl 42. Then her work schedule changed and now I miss her tremendously. The Funny thing is now I combo with another druid and have since lvl 44.

Is it because druids are whiny @#%$ beeyatchs? nope. Is it because they have better DD’s than me? nope.
Is it because the majority you meet are hot wood elves or half-elves. maybe /snicker.
Is because the majority of them are friendly? All the ones I’ve met are.
And last but not least, is it because they make kick @#%$ partners for mages. Definitely.

Let is be shown that a mage has posted on the druid boards that she loves to group with druids! And is not afriad to say it!

dd
53 Elementalist grouping with druids since lvl 9

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Is it because the majority you meet are hot wood elves or half-elves. maybe [/quote]

BAH the Hairy footed Halflings are so much better. After all you know what they say about BIG Feet











Big Shoes :p

The only reason I posted that list in the first place because the originals post was so laughable and needed to show nuke effectiveness level by level rather than comparing a magician dd that came 5 levels before the druids got a dd of a similar ratio to the actual reality of it.

He wanted to show that he had a nuke that had a better ratio even though it took 3 levels at least after he got the nuke to obtain that superior ratio, while the magicians dd was 8 levels old and in a couple of levels would have a dd that completely blew the druids dd away.

All in all it doesnt matter one way or the other, I personally know a magician can out perform a druid damage wise by a large margin in almost all situations. I just hated seeing a post about a magicians nuke superiorty as being a myth.

Both druids and mages have a 1550 nuke at level 65. /shrug. Bolts are nice if you have a LOS but alot of the time all the "casters" are hiding from AOEs.

Let is be shown that a mage has posted on the druid boards that she loves to group with druids! And is not afriad to say it!

Likewise. This is one druid that likes to group with mages, even back when pets were unpopular...:)



The only reason I posted that list in the first place because the originals post was so laughable and needed to show nuke effectiveness level by level rather than comparing a magician dd that came 5 levels before the druids got a dd of a similar ratio to the actual reality of it.

LOL...give it up, Denaeb. You lost. It doesn't matter what you think, or I think, but what Verant thinks. And by making druid and mage DDs equal, it's clear what Verant thinks.


Now to those of you who are saying you cant exclude bolts because it makes mages look weak please stop your embarrising yourself. He may have excluded it when talking about realtive power before PoP but he excluded it afterwards to. For those that are slow he didnt ask for a 2k nuke to match your bolt he asked for a 1550 nuke to match your nuke. So in other words if you include bolts the whole way through mages still win out and scirroco got his way.

Gnizmo, you are correct. Bolts are excluded before and after, just like the druid AoE line. Bolts do more damage per single target, as compared to the druid AoE that does lesser damage to 4 targets. Each is somewhat situational, and it's advantages: 2000 to a single target vs. 1100 x 4. Not including crits...:)

I read some of page one and the original post.

What I'll note is this:

It is perfectly valid to treat ST nukes and bolts as separate things. Bolts are not strictly nukes.

However, bolts are useful in nearly all situations that normal nukes are useful.. which is different from AE spells. AE spells require fairly specific conditions.. namely that for an AE to be better than a normal nuke, it generally has to be able to hit more than one target. The exception here is rains, and magicians have two lines of rain spells that would compare.

So, although nukes and bolts are not the same thing, they are <em>very</em> close. You can always try to use a bolt. Sometimes bolts work well, sometimes they don't. I make two lengthy posts on this page Firebolt of Tallon on a Vendor (Not Cool) (http://pub140.ezboard.com/fgraffeswizardcompilationfrm53.showMessageRange?to picID=46.topic&start=181&stop=200). In that thread it may seem as if I am arguing the opposite as I am arguing here, but in fact that is because there is a middle ground. In that thread, the trend is to treat bolts exactly like nukes, while in this thread it's completely the opposite. The answer is in between. But anyway, most anything I would want to explain about how bolts work is covered in those two posts. Short and sweet: Bolts are not ST nukes, but they are really close.

Ok so now to my point for this thread.

Assuming that bolts are kind of "mostly nukes" we can treat bolts as a secondary mage nuke that competes with normal druid nukes. A mage has the option to use a bolt if it will perform better than a normal nuke. When the mage has used the bolt sucessfully, the actual difference in effect between the bolt usage and normal nuke usage is minimal to nonexistant(Again, this is different from AEs or Rain spells).

Looking at your charts, magicians get similar, though slightly weaker nukes but get them at earlier levels. While you are levelling, that can be fairly significant. Given two equal nukes, one that is lower level is generally a better spell. From one perspective 1-50, it wouldn't be hard to say that mages are generally better nukers than druids but druids sometimes are a little bit ahead.

Then what you do is point out that, even when a Druid does have slightly better normal nukes, a mage has the option to do better with a bolt. This is reasonable because bolts are so similar to nukes. You don't include them in the initial comparison, but you make note of them afterwards. For example:

<strong>3. At the first max level of 50, the Druid DD was slightly better than the Mage DD: 612 damage vs. 600 damage (both for 250 mana).</strong> [/i]Mages also had the Lava Bolt option, which was an 810 damage spell for 300 mana.[/i]

Actually, you did this in your next point:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>4. At the second max level of 60, pre-SoL, the Druid DD (Wildfire) was substantially better than the best Mage DD. I think that this was a function of the Mage bolt being set equal to the damage of the Druid DD, <em>when the mage bolt damage should have been higher. This is an anomaly, IMO, and is continued with the introduction of Moonfire in SOL.</em>[/quote]Yes, it was an anomaly. A very important one, which is, I believe, the reason why all of a sudden with Kunark people noticed druids being better nukers than magicians. I think it is fairly safe to say that the level 59 mage bolt generally sees less use than any other spell in its line.

For Kunark, it might also be relevant to note that Char is not more mana effecient than lava bolt until level 55-56 (can't remember exactly). I'm not looking at the numbers now but I believe Scoraie is a direct upgrade to Starfire right?

So now that we have explained the Kunark situation.. why people tend to say that mages are "2nd best nukers" before the Kunark levels, but by level 60 a druid has taken that position, and has maintained it through 2 full expansions.. lets look at PoP.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What does this mean for PoP? If these old trends are followed, mages should get a bolt with high damage (which they do now)Firebolt of Tallon (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3318&source=Live), but as far as DDs go, Druid and Mage DDs should cost about the same mana, but Druids should either do (1) slightly more damage for the same mana, or (2) the same damage for slightly less mana. The mages also should get their nukes a level earlier than the druids, but at 65, the above relationship should hold.[/quote]Ok here are the PoP nukes as I see them.

Summer's Flame (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3449&source=Live) (1400/355/6.25) versus Black Steel (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3321&source=Live) (1400/360/6.25)

Summer's Flame does "the same damage for slightly less mana" Mages get their nuke one level earlier. This is exactly how you would predict, right?

Winter's Frost (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3452&source=Live) (1550/390/6.35) versus Sun Vortex (http://lucy.fnord.net/spell.html?id=3325&source=Live) (1550/395/6.35)

The druid nuke does ""the same damage for slightly less mana," except this time the mage doesn't have the spell one level earlier.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The PoP nukes break this trend[/quote]I would disagree. PoP nukes do not break this trend. It is bent, slightly, in that the magicians don't have the luxury of getting their biggest S.T. nuke a level sooner than the similar druid spell. Mages also get their bolt way early, which is curious but bolts have always been scattered so it isn't as if there is an obvious trend to break. The bolt still functions in the same capacity that bolts did pre-kunark.

Reading more of the thread...


Putting bolts and AEs into the same category isn't sensible at all. It is not unreasonable to achieve 100% success with bolts in a variety of settings. When 100% success is not reasonable, often 80% success or more IS reasonable. Furthermore, in any situation where a bolt can be used with 100% effectiveness, a nuke can be used to achieve the <span style="text-decoration:underline">exact same thing</span>. An AE achieves a different effect, when used to its full potential.

Consider a normal experience group. A mage might cast 70 Bolts and one might miss, maybe there were 15 situations where he opted for a non-bolt. This is not unreasonable at all. I can show you a log of a grouped magician using only FoT and never missing. This means that the bolt is acting like a nuke a little more than 80% of the time, the only thing not considered is positioning time.

I challenge you to show me a log of a normal group setting in PoP where you can use an AE nuke more than 80% of the time. First you have to assume no mezzing. Then you have to assume about 4/5 pulls are minimum 2 mobs. Then you have to assume that you can use the AE nuke on both mobs as often as you would a normal nuke. (IE using a single nuke on one target while a tank taunts all the other mobs). While this can certianly happen, the conditions here are more significant than that required for bolts. I mean, I think if your group is coordinated enough to continuously handle 2-4 mobs with no crowd controller they should probably be able to handle "don't stand in front of the mage."

Even so, lets imagine that you can land your AE on an average 2.5 mobs for 80% of the time, and compare Karana's Rage to Firebolt of Tallon. You'll average 2750 damage per 7 second cast and 450 mana right? Wow that pwns FoT doesn't it? Well, not quite, because the damage is spread out, and focused damage is inherently more valuable than random damage. To compensate for this, you'd have to analyze all the healer mana lost if more mobs were alive longer. This can be done, but such a comparison is far more complex than what is required to compare a bolt to a normal nuke. IMO, by this point you may as well just go ahead and do a full class comparison. Bolts vs. nukes is comparatively simple.

Strike three? AE nukes don't get damage focus, bolts do. Pretty simple one there.

On raids, there are many situations where bolts can function like nukes. Large mobs can often be hit with little difficulty. Sometimes, bolts are unreliable, but again only on a margin. Maybe a bolt as a whole will be 75-80% effective for a session once you count misses. How many situations are there, really, that you can land an AE on multiple raid mobs and have it mean something? Would you <span style="text-decoration:underline">ever</span> choose a 4 target AE spell on a single mob? And again the complexity is there in that you must consider the drawback of doing slower damage to multiple targets as oppsed to doing fast damage to a single target.

Solo? Mages and Druids generally use vastly different soloing paradigms so any comparison would be difficult. If a druid wants to use his 4 target AEs 100% he arranges it thusly. If a mage wants to use bolts 100% he can do that too. Mages can also chain pets, aggro kite.. etc.. etc..


So first, from a practical standpoint I say your reasoning for ruling out bolts just doesn't make sense. In reality it is far more common for bolts to preferred over a normal nuke than for AEs to be preferred over a normal nuke. Second, you have the issue with the incapability of an AE nuke to "assist" and drop a target sooner. Thirdly, there is the damage focus item discrepancy.

I agree that bolts should not be put in the exact same category as nukes, but they are <span style="text-decoration:underline">much</span> closer to normal nukes than 4-target AEs are.

Putting bolts and AEs into the same category isn't sensible at all.

Nobody put them into the same category at all (unless it was you). I simply excluded them both from the category of unrestricted DDs.

They are simply alternative ways for mages and druids to inflict damage. Same for pets, PBAEs, DoTs, etc.

It's funny there's still any argument about this going on. The original point about unrestricted DDs was made and the druid PoP DDs were changed, which was the result I desired. As I stated above, if mages want to call themselves better nukers than druids, it really doesn't matter...*shrugs*

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Nobody put them into the same category at all (unless it was you). I simply excluded them both from the category of unrestricted DDs.[/quote]You put them in the same category by claiming that you'd have to include AEs if we included bolts into a nuke comparison. That's different from simply sticking to your point of unrestricted DDs, a point which I have no problem accepting or understanding. Indeed I saw you make this AE argument several times which led to my post.

And sorry that I didn't notice the date on your original post.

By the way,

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As I stated above, if mages want to call themselves better nukers than druids, it really doesn't matter...*shrugs* [/quote]While this is true, the title of your post does not convey the same indifference.

ya sir, mage bolts arent DD's

rfolroflroflroflroflrfo omfg :o

/snicker

Let me hit you with FoT and see if it does not directly damage you.