View Full Forums : A Report of my Parsed damage on Vulak


ccLothar
06-11-2003, 08:57 AM
I've never seen anyone talk about Druid DPS in raw numbers before so I thought I'd start parsing fights for comparison. To start I parsed my Vulak damage from a couple nights ago and thought I'd share it here.

I DoTed twice and nuked a lot with Winters Frost - almost 30 times over the 7 minute fight. Not one resist and all casts either landed full or critted for 3100. I was having agro problems while my DoTs were applied, so couldn't nuke as much as I would have liked. I got Flurried on twice and smacked a bit a few other times. I had no Bard in my group, and no focus items on and no mod rod. I have PoP Fury 3.

The numbers:
I did just over 50,000 on Vulak in a 7 minute fight. I did not run out of mana, but I was getting close. My DPS was 120/sec over 7 minutes.

I know I could do better but this kind of gives me a baseline for this mob by which to work. Not drawing any conclusions other than to say this a pretty good mob to shine on for DPS because of the length of the fight relative to the DPS of my guild.

Panamah
06-11-2003, 09:35 AM
Yeah, that is good DPS. I'd have to say it's typical for my rogue to get 120-130 DPS on boss mobs in Velious on long fights. So you're right up there with rogues.

Telemanes
06-11-2003, 05:55 PM
Just as an aside, what percentage of your nukes were crits with PoP fury 3? :)

Iilane SalAlur
06-11-2003, 06:17 PM
With the new dot damage messages, I found that I did around 667/tick or 110dps during my post-patch 30 min Vyzh'dra the Cursed fight.

[Thu Jun 12 01:04:19 2003] Vyzh`dra the Cursed has taken 240 damage from your Swarming Death.
[Thu Jun 12 01:04:19 2003] Vyzh`dra the Cursed has taken 143 damage from your Winged Death.
[Thu Jun 12 01:04:19 2003] Vyzh`dra the Cursed has taken 140 damage from your Immolation of Ro.
[Thu Jun 12 01:04:19 2003] Vyzh`dra the Cursed has taken 65 damage from your Drifting Death.
[Thu Jun 12 01:04:19 2003] Vyzh`dra the Cursed has taken 55 damage from your Wrath of Nature.
[Thu Jun 12 01:04:19 2003] Vyzh`dra the Cursed has taken 34 damage from your Drones of Doom.

Add the occasional nukes I did and the dps figure increases :)

Mileron
06-11-2003, 06:45 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>[Thu Jun 12 01:04:19 2003] Vyzh`dra the Cursed has taken 34 damage from your Drones of Doom.[/quote]

I laughed when I read this... you pulled out your Drones? :evil:
But, I guess damage is still damage, and it does add up :)

PlaXibo
06-11-2003, 07:11 PM
There's alot of clicky items that have drones of doom for a effect.

Iilane SalAlur
06-11-2003, 08:08 PM
Heck, I'ld even toss in flame lick except I needed to med up a little between refreshing the dots or I'ld run out of mana real quick. As it is, constantly keeping 6 dots refreshed was just nice to keep my mana bar more or less on par with Vyzh`dra's hp bar. :rolleyes:

ccLothar
06-11-2003, 10:42 PM
I don't know what the ave crit rate is. It's too streaky to get a feel for. If I had to guess I'd say it averages between 15% - 20%. I've gone twenty minutes without a crit then have crited 8 times in 10 casts.

~Loth

Araxx Darkroot
06-11-2003, 11:59 PM
*cough* FIX YOUR MAGELO LOTHA!!!! *cough*

;)

ccLothar
06-12-2003, 01:22 PM
Just for you, Araxx. Yer worse den my mom!

L1ndara
06-12-2003, 02:49 PM
<strong>Yeah, that is good DPS. I'd have to say it's typical for my rogue to get 120-130 DPS on boss mobs in Velious on long fights. So you're right up there with rogues.</strong>

What is your rogue using and how much +ATK? 130dps sounds really low, is that without backstabs?

Overies
06-12-2003, 06:36 PM
the whole uber-debuffed thing helps a lot

under normal circumstances winters storm would be resisting horribly

Northerner
06-12-2003, 11:05 PM
Sadly, I imagine the answer is no L1ndara. Since we are looking at Velious styled Mobs, attack is likely just the usual buffs, epic and perhaps a couple of Vengance 1 items. Assuming a 15/20 and epic setup, I found 130 dps to be about average for a level 65 Rogue (with offensive AAs finished) against most targets.

Non-elemental Rogues are not producing much damage these days.

BricSummerthorne
06-12-2003, 11:43 PM
Aye, the lack of any resists at all is amazing. Blizzard usually resists one wave, and often two.

The other thing that struck me is (if I calculate right) the fact that you blew thru almost 13,000 mana in 7 min. Even with a 6k mana pool, that's something like 100 mana/tic, more with a smaller mana pool.

L1ndara
06-13-2003, 06:53 AM
<strong>Non-elemental Rogues are not producing much damage these days.</strong>

The luclin piercers should get you easily up over 200dps at 65 IIRC.

<strong>The other thing that struck me is (if I calculate right) the fact that you blew thru almost 13,000 mana in 7 min. Even with a 6k mana pool, that's something like 100 mana/tic, more with a smaller mana pool. </strong>

SCM3 and specialization makes Winter's Frost cost about 308 instead of 390.

Oritxu
06-13-2003, 08:27 AM
Iilane,

Just a side note. We were talking in our guild druid chat during our Aten kill the other night. We decided to stop casting our free clicky DoT's and low damage DoT's becuase it was filling up all the spots for DoT's and preventing other bigger DoT's from landing both from us and other DoT classes. I know this is a big raid issue not a small raid or group issue, I just wanted to throw it out there for information.

AmonraSet
06-13-2003, 09:27 AM
<strong>"that's something like 100 mana/tic, more with a smaller mana pool. "</strong>

With full FT, all the raid buffs and a bard singing AE mana song you can expect to get 80+ mana/tick of regen. More in outdoor zones where you can use a horse.

Panamah
06-13-2003, 09:47 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What is your rogue using and how much +ATK? 130dps sounds really low, is that without backstabs? [/quote]

I have Ragebringer and APMB (RoS blade). Yeah, not the greatest weaponry. Also, have all the level 65 damage AA's. But over long fights, that's definitely my DPS range. Oh yes, have primal too. I think with avatar, my one Vengence 1 item and raid buffs I'm 1550-1650 attack, somewhere in that range.

I can spike over 200 dps on short PoP fights, like in experience groups, but that's another animal. Boss mobs, yes, with backstabs and using duelist, in Velious... 130ish is about right.

Sebbi Fyrewalker
06-13-2003, 10:12 AM
Regarding the mana cost, I don't think the 13,000 figure takes into account mana savings. SCM3 and other mana savers will definitely put a dent into that cost.

It would be really nice to more accurately pin down druid DPS now that we can see (and thus parse?) DoT damage. Thanks for the interesting thread!

BricSummerthorne
06-13-2003, 10:24 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
With full FT, all the raid buffs and a bard singing AE mana song you can expect to get 80+ mana/tick of regen
[/quote]
That's a good point, but he said he had no Bard, and no focus items. According to his Magelo he's got 3759 mana, and FT7.

Using L1ndara's numbers for AA-based mana usage, and subtracting starting mana, that's roughly 71 mana/tic from buffs and horse.

VoQ is 18, Spiritual Dominion is 9, Pot9 is 8, Mask of the Forest is 4 = 39/tic. He would need a sitting mana regen of 32+/tic...is it that high at 65? I'm not even counting DOTs and remaining mana.

Gah. I don't mind being a noob, but I'd like to know what I am missing.

Sebbi Fyrewalker
06-13-2003, 10:38 AM
Necro pump or BST paragon give nice mana boosts too. Oh, and an SK in group can help too.

Also, VoQ would've made his mana pool larger, since he's not at max wisdom without it. My guess is any further discrepenct comes from it being "almost 30 nukes" and "about 7 minutes".

Evil Hobbit Jarvalor
06-13-2003, 11:07 AM
a few nights ago in vex thal i parsed my damage gainst DXXT to see how close i came to one of our rogues. he was wielding a ifir from fennin ro, and AHB from emp. i did about 94k damage (chain nuking ancient star fire) and he did 102k. Of course these mobs have highish AC and low resists, but still druids do great damage and can sustain it with certain spells.

L1ndara
06-13-2003, 01:16 PM
<strong>Using L1ndara's numbers for AA-based mana usage, and subtracting starting mana, that's roughly 71 mana/tic from buffs and horse.

VoQ is 18, Spiritual Dominion is 9, Pot9 is 8, Mask of the Forest is 4 = 39/tic. He would need a sitting mana regen of 32+/tic...is it that high at 65? I'm not even counting DOTs and remaining mana.

Gah. I don't mind being a noob, but I'd like to know what I am missing. </strong>

He said no bard IN GROUP, Wind of Marr is AE so add another 22 mana/tick.

22 Bard
18 Enchanter
9 Beastlord
8 Druid
7 Flowing Thoughts 7
4 Druid self buff
2 Level 65 bonus
1 Mental Clarity
1 Normal regen
=72/tick

Meditation is 19/tick but ToV is indoors so no horse.

BricSummerthorne
06-13-2003, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
He said no bard IN GROUP, Wind of Marr is AE so add another 22 mana/tick.
[/quote]
Doh! That makes sense. Those numbers seem spot on, thank you.

Oldoaktree
06-13-2003, 03:00 PM
Druids don't dot on raids, period.

The 30 slots on the mob are reserved for debuffs and necro and shaman dots.

While our newest magic based dot is very potent on a per tick basis, our best DPM and DPS is still from our nukes, while necros and shamans do their best with dots.

There have been some mobs thoguh that we used our epics on. Tuna for instance since none of our nukes landed and we wanted to contribute at least a little dmg to the fight.

The irony of all our clicky dmg being dot based is not lost on me, since the only times we ever really get to dot are when we are soloing (or I suppose in a dot group of some sort).

Ainianu
06-13-2003, 04:21 PM
ive never been too concerned with my dps on raids (since im allways a healer) but your 30 buff slot limit on mobs got me kinda interested, when a mob has 30 on him now does number 31 not take hold? or overwrite something?

just curious cos never really heard much about this before, and i dont dot on raids

Tenpo SoulBlighter
06-13-2003, 05:44 PM
Thought I must reply..

"Necro pump". Why would I waste my mana to give you more mana when I can do significantly more damage? 120 dps is certainly nothing to sneeze at but why would I want to give away my mana when I can double or triple that dps using my own mana? Any necro that dumps his mana to another class on a long fight that isnt resisting him is killing the raid.

L1ndara
06-13-2003, 06:30 PM
<strong>"Necro pump". Why would I waste my mana to give you more mana when I can do significantly more damage? 120 dps is certainly nothing to sneeze at but why would I want to give away my mana when I can double or triple that dps using my own mana? Any necro that dumps his mana to another class on a long fight that isnt resisting him is killing the raid.</strong>

Necros Mind Wrack, 300 mana to give the other 5 people in the group 300 mana each (overall gain of 1200 mana...) SKs Zevfeer's Bite 100 mana to give the other 5 people 100 mana and 200 hps. But yeah, necros are going to make a hell of a lot better use of the mana than a dr00d ever could.

Tenpo SoulBlighter
06-13-2003, 06:44 PM
And necro's have their place, just as druids do. Better or worse, thats for the individual to decide. Personally, I have a great druid friend in the guild that I group with constantly. We drop just about anything like flies!

ccLothar
06-13-2003, 06:47 PM
I'm not sure what the question is. I never sat down -- I was way too busy casting and managing my agro to do that. Not once and in seven odd minutes I never ran out of mana. I critted several times. I'm guessing I'm geared pretty close to the average 65 Druid. My guilds DPS on that fight was 1200dps, assuming Vulak is 500k mob. If I'm wrong on that 500k, someone please let me know.

And yes -- I specialized in Evocation.

Again, not drawing any conclusions. Just offering up some numbers.

ccLothar
06-14-2003, 05:26 PM
Tormax last night. Cold resistent, so I used Summers Flame - 1400. Hit him 13 times with no crits, but hit full every time. Got agro once. :( Fight was a shade under 3 minutes, like 2:56.

1400 x 13 = 18200 over 3 minutes is 101dps.

L1ndara
06-14-2003, 06:10 PM
<strong>Got agro once. Fight was a shade under 3 minutes, like 2:56.

1400 x 13 = 18200 over 3 minutes is 101dps.</strong>

What weapon is your MT using. 100dps and getting agro... I sort of suspected there were agro problems with the bigger druid nukes. 3 minutes is a fairly quick kill, wouldn't be surprised at all if monks and rogues were doing well over 100dps and never got agro.

ElliseEQ
06-14-2003, 06:24 PM
If you cast Summer's Flame one after another 13 times, it will only take 1 minute, 53.75 seconds.

Since he didn't chain nuke begining to end, he might have done a decent amount of dps over a relatively short period of time~ (160 is the max dps w/ summer's flame and no spell haste, crits, or damage enhancers).

Also, keep in mind that monks and rogues have methods of decreasing their aggro in evade and feign death (as do most classes).

A weak aggro reducing spell would do us good. It could also help us with our heal aggro problems.

C'est la vie~~

ccLothar
06-14-2003, 11:06 PM
Well, I couldn't chain cast Summers Flame and with recast delay and pauses for agro control, I got off about as many as I could. Warrior MT. Oh, and wasn't a Guild warrior. Pick up raid.

Can anyone chain cast their nukes? I knowI can't. Buys me a ticket to bind.

ccLothar
06-18-2003, 04:05 PM
Last one.

Eindride Icestorm - BoT mini. Used fire nuke.

21,000 in about 2:30 for 140 DPS. No focus, no bard. Never got agro.

Here's the edited log.

[Tue Jun 17 22:15:09 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:15:09 2003] Eindride Icestorm blisters in the flames of Summer.
[Tue Jun 17 22:15:25 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:15:40 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:15:53 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:16:05 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:16:16 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:16:30 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:16:41 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:16:52 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 2800 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:17:06 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:17:17 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:17:27 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 2800 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:17:37 2003] Lotharun hit Eindride Icestorm for 1400 points of non-melee damage.
[Tue Jun 17 22:17:41 2003] Your faction standing with Greater Vann Giants got worse.
[Tue Jun 17 22:17:41 2003] Your faction standing with Lesser Vann Giants got worse.
[Tue Jun 17 22:17:41 2003] Your faction standing with Askr the Lost got better.
[Tue Jun 17 22:17:41 2003] You gained raid experience!

Evil Hobbit Jarvalor
06-19-2003, 03:48 AM
throw in a bard, nuke haste, improved damage and you'll be pushing 200dps easily

SilleyEskimo
06-19-2003, 04:08 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>21,000 in about 2:30 for 140 DPS. No focus, no bard. Never got agro.[/quote]

Myself and another druid used charmed frogs while we nuked during our last PoS mini raid. With 3 full groups, the 2 of us made up over 1/3rd of the actual dmg.

Those frogs are unbelievable.

bdg55
06-19-2003, 05:13 AM
Just to clarify, Chorus of Marr is AoE, Wind of Marr is Group only.

Molilya
06-19-2003, 05:42 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What weapon is your MT using. 100dps and getting agro... I sort of suspected there were agro problems with the bigger druid nukes. 3 minutes is a fairly quick kill, wouldn't be surprised at all if monks and rogues were doing well over 100dps and never got agro. [/quote]

You cannot compare melee agro with casting agro tho. Plus the fact that both monks and rog's can evade (of fd) to get rid of agro makes them able to just push close to max dps of them.

Our MT use either a Bow (2hs of RZ with EB) or 2 EB weapons and well, i have no trouble getting agro really. I wish agro was that easy - its not. Some raids i know i will die because of the agro, of the spotheals i give in combination with my nukes and dots. O yeah, they lub molly !!!

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Druids don't dot on raids, period.

The 30 slots on the mob are reserved for debuffs and necro and shaman dots.[/quote]

I tend to disagree here. It totally depends on the job of the certain classes that raids. I know we have raids where necro's are healers. Same for shamans. I know most of our shamans nuke and don't use their dots. Why ? my guess would be no room to mem the spells. And constant nuking dps > 1 dot dps.

L1ndara
06-19-2003, 10:25 AM
<strong>You cannot compare melee agro with casting agro tho. Plus the fact that both monks and rog's can evade (of fd) to get rid of agro makes them able to just push close to max dps of them.</strong>

Yeah, I'd meant that they probably didn't even have to blurr the mob to not get agro as they were probably generating less agro per DPS than the druid was. Even if they did get agro, heck, all but the top mobs monks LIKE to tank. At least for 12 seconds anyway. :D

<strong>I tend to disagree here. It totally depends on the job of the certain classes that raids. I know we have raids where necro's are healers. Same for shamans. I know most of our shamans nuke and don't use their dots. Why ? my guess would be no room to mem the spells. And constant nuking dps > 1 dot dps.</strong>

DOTs are more agro than nukes except on mobs that you're getting a lot of nuke resists on. There are lots of reasons for druids to not use DOTs (on raid mobs) and generally they shouldn't be used except the fire ones as a debuff.

Varaho1
06-19-2003, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>as they were probably generating less agro per DPS than the druid was. [/quote]

Do you happen to have any data to back this up?

Not that I doubt it, just curious.

Saffun
06-19-2003, 12:29 PM
I am just a poor non raiding druid.
I hardly ever do anything without mage focus.

Getting and keeping a mage bracer and ring on yourself is important for some druids who will never see the upgraded level 4 focus effects.
Wouldn't dream of doing a big mob without them.

For those who do not know charming a animal and putting your focus items on them is a good way to keep em. Having someone duel you is teh standard way.

I was going to use mangler in rivervale to be my permament focus holder but the faction hit for killing him was terrible. Now i have another place in a city filled with shorties.

Laeyakk
06-19-2003, 12:48 PM
Mage earring is 15% random mana preservation (better than pure MP foci) on nukes and dots and rains.

Mage bracer is 20% random damage focus.

Damage focus and crits are additive, not multiplicative.

Mage ring is 15% spell haste.

Assuming max crit is 15%, and barring aggro based DPS restrictions, full mage foci should up your DPS by 20% (if mana restricted) to almost 27% (if casting time restricted).

Is it known if crits and mage damage foci increase both aggro and damage? It is possible it only does one or the other.

Aggro, however, tends to be a limiting factor. If this is true, SCS can up your DPS by 10%.

ccLothar
06-19-2003, 01:24 PM
Okay, I admit -- I'm sometimes just too lazy to ask for a Mage Bracer. Sometimes, we just don't have a Mage at the raid. Matters not. The mob will die, with or without my tad bit extra damage.

Jaladim - Mage bracer, Lotharun?
Lotharun - Sure. I want to announce my presence with authority!
Jaladim - Okay, meat. Give em the cheese.

L1ndara
06-19-2003, 02:33 PM
<strong>Do you happen to have any data to back this up?

Not that I doubt it, just curious. </strong>

I duoed a lot with a monk who didn't use a proccing weapon in SoL and parsed a bunch of those. I didn't bother parsing in PoP but even with the monk getting weapon and AA upgrades I was having a much harder time not getting agro with the new nukes.

I was going to figure out the ratio of hits/damage from a meleer without procs to damage I could do, using the new nukes or DOTs, but I didn't get around to it, and now I don't care.

Molly said "Our MT use either a Bow (2hs of RZ with EB) or 2 EB weapons and well, i have no trouble getting agro really." Which is sort of crazy, BoW parses about 180dps? 48/32 hits for about 200-300 per swing with attack rounds about 1.5 seconds apart? EB is a 700 agro proc on top of that. You'd think a druid would have to try pretty damn hard to pull agro off that, not "i have no trouble getting agro really." Something is wrong, people should spend the time and figure out the agro on a few things and figure out the problem because SOE won't fix anything unless someone does.

KubianVOIDTANK
06-19-2003, 04:17 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Okay, I admit -- I'm sometimes just too lazy to ask for a Mage Bracer. Sometimes, we just don't have a Mage at the raid. Matters not. The mob will die, with or without my tad bit extra damage.

Jaladim - Mage bracer, Lotharun?
Lotharun - Sure. I want to announce my presence with authority!
Jaladim - Okay, meat. Give em the cheese. [/quote]

Just due to us Ranger /flex (Ok, maybe just Tiki/Glenn?Seswa :p )

Molilya
06-19-2003, 07:50 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Which is sort of crazy, BoW parses about 180dps? 48/32 hits for about 200-300 per swing with attack rounds about 1.5 seconds apart? EB is a 700 agro proc on top of that. You'd think a druid would have to try pretty damn hard to pull agro off that, not "i have no trouble getting agro really." Something is wrong, people should spend the time and figure out the agro on a few things and figure out the problem because SOE won't fix anything unless someone does. [/quote]'

That's why i mentioned it is SO hard to compare melee agro with casting agro. And just because i can doesn't mean i do it :) that's the part of agro controll we all have to do. Anoying somethimes i miust agree because it overal means stop casting or die.

I think that's also the overal largest reason there is a "request" for some kind of agro management for druids.

Belkram Marwolf
06-20-2003, 01:12 AM
BoW isnt quite that high. I think Warriors would be overjoyed if it were, but its not doing quite that level of DPS. I think around the 125 mark is pretty close. I know 150 to 225 simply cant be right.

I do agree with the basic premise that warrior agro generation is a serious problem right now. Please dont let a paladin overhear that because this thread will veer to Knights versus Warriors and make Clerics versus Druid problems look like a tea social. :P


Belkram

AmonraSet
06-20-2003, 04:47 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Anoying somethimes i miust agree because it overal means stop casting or die. [/quote]

I feel I should point out for the record that when on raids Molilya tends to go for option 2 :)

Gwynet Woodsister
06-20-2003, 05:21 AM
I would believe that dps wise nukes with mage focus would do more damage overall than DoTs anyway. I only use mana free DoTs and not the crappy drones of doom. I think we would get enough mana medding to cast a nuke in the time it takes to cast too.

Molilya
06-20-2003, 10:48 AM
Well, only reasons i use dots in raids is to burn extra mana with low agro. It might just feel like that.

but overal in raids where i do it like that my casting is something like:

Swarming death, Winged death, SF / WF (whatever hits best) - pause - SF/WF , SD, WD etc etc