View Full Forums : Issue with xp loss and corpse recovery: Brainstorming


Demasia
06-12-2003, 03:55 PM
Having begun with a title that is less provactive, this is an attempt to allow free thinking and constructive development of ideas.

Not everyone agrees that there is a problem with Rezzes in the game. That dissention is duly noted and respected. However, there are many of us who do see Rezzes as problematic to the grouping dynamics in the game to varying degrees. This thread is for those who have ideas, those who would want to help refine ideas, those who are curious and for the trolls who refuse to respect and will try to derail the constructive nature of this thread. Feel free to preface your ideas with the reason your idea would be beneficial and even what you think the would be outcome of implementing your idea.

As with any brainstorming exercise, noone is asking for every idea to be implemented.

I will try to maintain a table of contents on this first page as best I can.

<strong>-Updated Succor</strong> Page 1
<strong>-Rez Rods</strong> Page 1
<strong>-Rez Spell for Druids</strong> Page 1
<strong>-Succor of Intervention?</strong> Page 1
<strong>-Preservation Spell</strong> Page 1
<strong>-Summon Corpse</strong> Page 1
<strong>-Outdoor Only Rez</strong> Page 1
<strong>-Group Rez</strong> Page 1
<strong>-Rework Necro Rezzes</strong> Page 1
<strong>-GY and Zoneline Rez</strong> Page 1
<strong>-Reincarnation</strong> Page 2
<strong>-Summon Group</strong> Page 2
<strong>-Shrines</strong> Page 3
<strong>-Racial Restoration</strong> Page 3
<strong>-Necro Tradeskill Item</strong> Page 3
<strong>-Druid Group Life Pact?</strong> Page 3
<strong>-Import Dead</strong> Page 3
<strong>-Vessel of Preservation</strong> Page 4
<strong>-Increase Rez Timer for 60+</strong> Page 5
<strong>-Change Exp Lost At Death</strong> Page 5
<strong>-DAOC style</strong> Other thread

Demasia
06-12-2003, 03:57 PM
<strong>Updated Succor</strong>

This is an idea that I believe is outside the parameters of what Absor wanted in terms of ease of implementation. But it is alternative solution to addressing the "rez" factor in druids' group desirability.

We have had the Succor line for 4 years and because of the spell, I would guess that most people associate "succor" with some sort of teleportation. However the meaning of "succor" has to do with providing help or relief to someone or something and not neccessarily by means of teleportation.

Suppose druids received a level 56 spell that was a group only buff that lasted 2-3 hrs and had a mana cost that would use all of the mana of most 56 druids. This Succor buff would suspend damage and aggro to any group member upon reaching 1 hit point. Additionally, the group member would be in a stasis for ten minutes (like Fear) unable to move, cast or even regen mana and hit points during that time.

The mechanics of it are probably beyond my understanding of programming. But, perhaps the buff could be implemented as a "rune" that isn't used until the rest of the character's runes and hit points are used up. Once the 1000 hit point (or whatever it takes to assure a hit doesn't kill the character while activating the buff) Succor buff is hit, it activates the Succor effect instantly.

Again, I think this may be more complicated than what Absor is looking for. It does address the group desirability issue though and is consistant with what druids have always offered groups. Simply put, it would return to the game an alternative to CRs and "rezzes".

Demasia
06-12-2003, 03:59 PM
<strong>Rez Rods</strong>

Give clerics a spell that casts Rez Rods (a la Mod Rods). Cleris who used to raise plat to buy spells by casting HoV/Aego could replace that lost revenue casting Rez Rods.

1. Targeted cast and No Drop, but stackable.
2. A cleric without an epic would be able to make rods for own use during downtime.
3. Instead of dragging corpses to a cleric in another group to donate for rez, a player uses a Rez Rod that he bought prior to embarking to dungeon X with his group.

Just another idea. I do still think Succor should be upgraded in some fashion like rezzes have been and Succoring doesn't end the adventure, level 65 pallies should have the level 56 cleric rez, the necro rez should be adjusted to be more viable, Shaman be able to make a rez potion that is affordable and SKs receive the necro rez ability at a later level.

Demasia
06-12-2003, 04:07 PM
<strong>Rez Spell For Druids</strong> (copied from 90% thread)

Druids need a rez spell. That is the only solution that will save druids. I have read enough of the replies here to see that most druids do not want a rez spell. Several of the reasons I have seen are that they do not want the abilities of another class, they want their own unique abilities. Or they do not want to hurt clerics by taking away one of the clerics abilities.

I counter that you would not be taking on a cleric ability but you would be taking on a priestly ability. After all what do you think your biggest role is in this game? Think back to your lower levels in Frontier Mountains, Lake of Ill Omen, and Oasis of Marr. Back when your heals were lesser than clerics but not pathetic in comparison. Back when rez meant 20-35% and was hardly worth the rez effects other than to get the player back to the group quickly. What was your role in the group? I would think most of you would say you were a healer.

Recently, since the first druid CH spell came out, druids have been given substantial upgrades to their healing abilities such that in PoP our heals are once again lesser versions of the clerics heals but not pathetic in comparison.

Some of you are saying you would like more powerful dots or better nukes. I counter this by saying it is too late to get substantial upgrades to these abilities. With druids near-cleric healing upgrades they arenít going to also be given near-Necro quality dots or near-wizard quality nukes. Druids are already known as a back up healer to most people, raids in particular.

To get groups Druids are going to have to be sold as cleric replacements. Similar to beastlords filling in as a slower if no shaman can be found. A beastlord has a weaker version of almost all shaman abilities in exchange for a better pet and melee ability. Sony started this job for us but didnít finish it. Druids need to have weaker versions of most clerics abilities in exchange for better nukes/dots/snare and ease of travel. I know clerics like to talk about invis/sow/lev/eb/ds a lot. But this is sidetracking the topic. Abilities that can be replaced with trivial amounts of platinum should not be considered in balancing clerics and druids. I didnít create a druid to save 10p every time I needed invis or sow. I would trade all of my potion abilities for 1 quality ability that canít be purchased such as rez. Now if Sony wants to introduce 85% rez potions for roughly 50-75p a shot thatís cool

If druids are currently acceptable replacements to clerics, why are druids still having a hard time finding groups? Itís surely not a lacking in our CHís or Instant heals. That leaves Rez and HoTís. Many of the druids here say they do a fine job of replacing a cleric without those abilities. I believe that. Players who take the time to read class boards and post are IMO generally more hard-core than the player who does not take the time to participate in the community discussions. The people here are not the average druid. The difference is that an average cleric (for example: ebayed) can perform their job while it takes an exceptional druid preferably with lots of AA to do that same job. Druids are replacing a cleric with 1 hand tied behind their backs.

Druids need to be hard coded with the idiot-proof spell that clerics have, rez. That lets a group know that no matter how dumb you may be you are going to at least bring them back to life if you #$%# up.

Whatís going to happen in the new expansion? You will absolutely need someone who can rez in a dungeon group. Unless Sony implements rez potions or gives a popular class like Rogues an ability to rez such that it is always going to be available, druids need it. There is a cave complex in PoD that is sort of a loop from one part of the zone to the other. There are 2 abilities that you positively absolutely cannot live without if you plan on taking a group from on end of that cave to the other. Mez and Rez. A druid cannot primary heal that encounter without the group taking a major gamble that could easily be avoided by just bringing a cleric instead.

With Soloing EXP scattered to the Four Winds and a dungeon expansion coming out. Its time to realize that a druids grouping role is that of a healer. It has always been. New DoTs, Nukes, Debuffs arenít going to get druids into groups. They need lesser versions of the priestly spells they are missing.

---------
Wiggume - 65 Storm Warden
Retired, circa charm nerf 2003

Demasia
06-12-2003, 04:11 PM
<strong>Succor of Intervention?</strong>

Best solution imo is give druids a spell which when a person loses all there hps simply succors them to ZI and roots them there for 5 mins instead of dying... make it last say 2 hours and require a decent cost component such as a fire opal. This idea probably needs a lot of refining but in principle it seems quite fun.

Telemanes

Autius
06-12-2003, 04:15 PM
Maybe if the rods were no rent. But I seriously doubt these would be implemented; they would annihilate the need for a cleric. Why would you bring a cleric if you could bring a shaman with decent healing power, slows, buffs, haste; a druid too with better healing power and evacs; and 6 rez rods? You just wouldn't bring the cleric alot of the time. Then the clerics would be in the position they were a coupla expansions ago; they wouldn't be needed because all they can do is heal.

Demasia
06-12-2003, 04:16 PM
<strong>Preservation Spell</strong>

Instead of discussing a rez type of spell for druids, which many seem to agree is not a good idea to give druids, why not instead discuss the idea that was mentioned earlier that druids could cast a spell which would extend the duration of the rez timer? Think about it this way, if druids could cast a spell that would increase the rez timer to 10 hours (or however long) then how could they still make the argument 'you can't rez so you shouldn't get a group in the planes' if they have their timer so long that they would be able to get a rez without worry later?

"Preservation" of a corpse to increase its rez timer would be ~~something unique~~ to the druids (though I could see it being given to necros too), and I don't see why it wouldn't take care of a great deal of routine outdoors groups not picking druids because they can't rez.

So what's wrong with having this instead of having rez? Sure it wouldn't take care of those wanting to go deep into the dungeons on hard quests, but i don't see why it wouldn't solve the problem of regular groups inviting druids to be main healer/preserver. (instead of main healer/rezzer)

So what's the argument against this?

Aleii

Demasia
06-12-2003, 04:23 PM
<strong>Summon Corpse</strong>

Why not a "summon corpse" type of spell. It makes sense that you'd summon the corpse through the earth to a point elsewhere in the zone. In PoP zones it happens faster than just waiting on the timer. Rez just doesn't seem to fit the druid from what lore I understand.

Kysharn
62 Shining Death,
Officer; Artes Moriendi
Bertoxxulous Server

Demasia
06-12-2003, 04:28 PM
<strong>Outdoor Only Rez</strong>

What about an outdoor-only 96% res? I don't think that would be imbalancing. Druids are the masters of nature and the outdoors afterall. This would be great for pickup groups, and there are lots of experience grinding spots in outdoor zones. Clerics would still be the only class who could 96% res both indoors & outdoors.

Grhar

Demasia
06-12-2003, 04:36 PM
<strong>Group Rez</strong>

major grouping role for us is to substitute as a poor cleric. The reality is we can't do that unless there is someone in the group that can rez. Nobody is going to be very keen on going down a dungeon (and this is the whole point of the next expansion) with a druid if there is no cleric because if they die they get an unrezzed death. 6 peeps with an unrezzed death is a ridiculous amount of downtime not to mention the second deaths on a bungled corpse retrieval. A bit more DPS cannot possibly make up for that. More DPS, extra regen, more DS etc will make virtually no difference as to our group desirability compared to what rez would do.

So I think, Rez does = more groups

...and equally importantly it means more groups for the whole EQ community because this is a serious choke point to group formation.

"Sorry Mr. Druid we need to keep our final slot open until we can find a rezzer." So that group sits at the entrance for another hour doing nothing, waiting for a cleric. How helpful is that to the general communities gameplay experience?

Would having a rez make us overpowered? I donít think so, because it has absolutely no effect on combat whatsoever.

I am trying to be constructive here but this is a thought, and this would need careful thinking throughÖ One possible solution might be to introduce a group rez with possibly an expensive component. Do not give druids the single person rez instead give a druid the group version requiring a full mana pool to cast. Give a much much lower mana cost version to clerics maybe that doesnít require the component so they have something way better (maybe also enable them to stack it with MGB for raids). Clerics then would remain the masters of rezzing making druids very poor secondary healers, which is what we are supposed to be. Because the only rez we have is a group one at high mana cost this would mean it would not be that good for using on single people including us solo (where we donít need any help) because of the downtime and cost, so its main use would be for group wipeouts, thereby increasing our group desireability but not giving us much extra benefit elsewhere.

Lumenku

Demasia
06-12-2003, 04:43 PM
<strong>Rework Necro Rezzes</strong>

I have no problem assuming the role of sole healer. However there must be the safety net of a rez, because things WILL go wrong regardless of skill. Perhaps linkdeath is a better example; it WILL cause death on occasion regardless of skill, particularly if you're experimenting with a nonstandard group makeup.

I have a horse. It's not usable in the Plane of Tactics where the Diaku Elites that I mentioned are, because it's an indoor zone. Oh, and even if I'm standing, that same elite will often get me in two rounds connected by a bash that stuns me. I'm sure the elemental planes are even worse in this respect, although those are of course designed for people with better gear.

The part of the necromancer rez that you neglect is the ~400pp component part. If a full group wipes out, that's 2400pp down the drain, even if it was due to being trained or the main healer going linkdead or whatever. If the cost were more like 40pp each, then yes, necromancers absolutely would sometimes get groups just because of the ability to rez.

If death only occurred because of player fault then the discussion would be entirely different.

Palarran

CannanTheDruid
06-12-2003, 04:47 PM
With the next planned expansion being primarily dungeons, I don't feel it's a good idea to push for an outdoor only res. With all the new indoor zones to be added at the end of the year - if we do get some abilities to make us more desired in groups, it would be nice to be able to use them in the new zones. Actually - I would like some of the outdoor only restrictions lifted from spells such as harmony and harmony of nature - or possible a newer version which is capable at a higher level that can be cast indoors as well.

I'm still not sold on res as being the answer - so far i think the best idea is the corpse preservation spell. Maybe it could be coded in such a way that the pc will be ported back to his corpse just like a res as well - with something similiar to res effects - just no xp gain. I'm wondering if this will cause us to have to drag around a stack of corpses on some difficult encounters.

Cannan

Demasia
06-12-2003, 04:49 PM
<strong>GY and Zoneline Rez?</strong>

Clerics do not have a monopoly on healing. Healing is tied with damage, in the number of classes that can do it. If it is done through spells, skills, or even bandages.

Clerics just happen to be the best at healing.

The next thing you could say clerics have a monopoly is rezes. But that makes as much sense as saying wizards have the monopoly on tps. It just doesn't make sense.

You have druids purposing having a rez NPC at the GYs of PoP. You have clerics agreeing with the idea. Whats wrong with that?

A soulbinder has been set up to alleviate the hassle of melees looking for a bind. Its not as good as bind but it does real nice as a replacement.

A modified tp system has set up via PoK books to alleviate some of the hassle of travel? Its not as good as teleport but it does real nice as a replacement.

Why not set up a modified rez system? Something not as good as the original, but it does alleviate the NEED for a cleric.

Divina

Autius
06-12-2003, 04:49 PM
Demensia.

We honestly don't want a rez. You say you do not want your invis/lev/eb "potion" abitilites. But you would the minute you needed them.

I don't know what to tell you. They already have a class without those potion abilities, with the ability to run fast and travel through PoP portals. This class is called a cleric.

Look, you are willing to give up alot of druidical powers to be able to rez. I'm not trying to be mean,but you honestly want to be a cleric. I'm serious. You really want to be one.

We don't mind you wanting to be a cleric. No one is really insulted. But the majority of us are druids because we don't want to be clerics. Alot of us agree, yes, there must be something you can do to make us more wanted in a group. But it is not rez.

But please, please, please, if you want to speak for the druid class, speak for all of us, not for you.

Oh, I play on Morell Thule. I'll power level you a cleric if you'd like. Druids are good at that.

Tiane
06-12-2003, 04:52 PM
An idea occured to me while reading your posts, similar to one of your ideas.

How about a Succor spell that doesnt move the group? It could in essence be a stationary lose aggro / invis / DA / type spell that keeps you in the same place for say, 2 minutes. In essence re-zoning you but without putting the group at the zone in. Make it high level, but not an AA... Superior Succor or something. That way you wouldnt be so afraid of hitting it in a horrid pull or something, and when it wears off you have a chance to pull things out of the fire or do a real evac.

Just an idea...

Tia

Autius
06-12-2003, 04:52 PM
Oh I kinda do like the corpse preservation ability. Seems somewhat more necro like but I can imagine a few RP reasons a druid could do it.

Besides, part of the advertisement for dungeons of norrath advertised new spells. Maybe we'll get a rez no matter what we think.

Islington
06-12-2003, 05:21 PM
Demasia,

Believe it or not, this statement that I'm about to make is not intended to be a flame/attack. Now with that being said, Demasia, why don't you just create a Cleric?

Your whole section on "Rez spells for Druids" smacks of class envy and you slam the majority of the Clerics out there with the same breath.

Just create a freaking Cleric, it's blatently obvious that you're jealous of them.

Glarnor
06-12-2003, 05:29 PM
Updated Succor: This would be nothing but an annoyance and I doubt it would be used. Ten minutes out of the game? no.

Succor of Intervention: Rooted at IZ.... Train to zone!!

Summon Corpse: What does that have to do with anything? Especially in relation to PoP which trivialised it for necros..

Group rez: Considering anything seen in-game right now, this would require significant changes to code, first of all. Second, with multiple corpses, how would it work?

L1ndara
06-12-2003, 05:30 PM
<strong>How about a Succor spell that doesnt move the group? It could in essence be a stationary lose aggro / invis / DA / type spell that keeps you in the same place for say, 2 minutes.</strong>

A while back they made succor drop agro, then zone you, probably a half-assed attempt to reduce people dying even though the succor hit them and started zoning them. It was noticeable when the evac failed as the mobs would ignore you and start walking back to their spawn until their agro kicked in. Anyway, the point is, they could do something like that now if they wanted to. Drop agro and give everyone shroud of stealth + root briefly.

Anyway, they really should get rid of egress/succor/winds leaving people behind, it's really annoying.

<strong>Just create a freaking Cleric, it's blatently obvious that you're jealous of them.</strong>

Just read a different freaking board. Sheesh.

Tiane
06-12-2003, 05:32 PM
Yeah... btw clerics are not the only class in the game with res spells.

So anyway, can we try sticking to the subject this time? Thanks.

Tia

Solice Farwalker
06-12-2003, 06:13 PM
There have been some intriguing ideas in this thread. However, I think rez's are fine the way they are.

Basically, Clerics and their hybrid the Paladin have rezs. I don't really count the Necros since their rez costs an arm and a leg.

That's fine with me. I think our future grouping abilites should come from some other area.

I won't go into my ideas on that here since everyone seems to be trying their best not to hijack this thread and I don't want to be guilty of thread hijacking myself.

TeriMoon
06-12-2003, 06:29 PM
It would be nice to have a succor upgrade of some sort. Something that doesn't move the group but somehow helps to save it. But then, that's sort of a function of SotW. I dunno what we could get for a group ( like the DA thing ) that wouldn't help us even more in solo play. Sometimes I wish group spells only worked when one was actually grouped.

Besides rez is the issue here, so I'll stop making tangential remarks.

FyyrLuStorm
06-12-2003, 06:55 PM
"btw clerics are not the only class in the game with res spells."

They are not the only ones with DA either, Bards have group DA.


And Dem,
That was a lot of work for a chanter.
/smile
gj

Rahjeir
06-12-2003, 06:55 PM
There is no rez issue in my eyes. I haven't had a problem getting a rez since I was lvl 40 if that.

The REAL druid problem is aggro. Give us a single target or group aggro reducing spell. That's it, bam druids are useful in a group setting again, AND in a raid setting.

Really, I would want a group version aggro reducing spell, with a mana cost of about 800-900. Lasting 30mins.

FyyrLuStorm
06-12-2003, 07:08 PM
Dem,

Also send me an EZbored message if you can.
Have a question for yas.

Hvyarms Steelfists
06-12-2003, 07:16 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Suppose druids received a level 56 spell that was a group only buff that lasted 2-3 hrs and had a mana cost that would use all of the mana of most 56 druids. This Succor buff would suspend damage and aggro to any group member upon reaching 1 hit point. Additionally, the group member would be in a stasis for ten minutes (like Fear) unable to move, cast or even regen mana and hit points during that time.[/quote]


Your literally suggesting that SOE give druids a spell that makes it impossible for someone to die or get agro for 10 minutes.... OK let me rip this apart.

First off if you set up a buff like this it would completely overpower druids and I will explain why.

XXX CLERIC gets this druid buff on a raid... xxxraid is wiping... xxxcleric "dies" at 1hp and is stuck there in a ss for 10 minutes with NO AGRO while the mobs path back thus allowing him to wait 10 minutes then completely rez up an entire raid in any possible situation... even better... druids cast this buff on the WHOLE raid and then NO ONE dies but after 10 minutes everyone simply heals up and no harm no foul.

With this it would not only be game-breaking it would completely insane... it would eliminate the need for rez of any kind in all situations and make druids the only class needed if you want an absolutely no-risk group. I have to be misunderstanding this suggestion or something because I honestly cant see how you couldnt think of the abusive tendencys people would use with it.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Give clerics a spell that casts Rez Rods (a la Mod Rods). Cleris who used to raise plat to buy spells by casting HoV/Aego could replace that lost revenue casting Rez Rods.
1. Targeted cast and No Drop, but stackable.
2. A cleric without an epic would be able to make rods for own use during downtime.
3. Instead of dragging corpses to a cleric in another group to donate for rez, a player uses a Rez Rod that he bought prior to embarking to dungeon X with his group.[/quote]

I see so now when you wipe xxx monk can simply fd and rez up a cleric who gave him a rod earlyer to recover the raid... same thing it would be game-breaking in many instances... yes other rez sticks in the game exist but they are soo few and so expensive most guilds cant use them for daily occurences and hence this is why it differs.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Druids need a rez spell. That is the only solution that will save druids. I have read enough of the replies here to see that most druids do not want a rez spell. Several of the reasons I have seen are that they do not want the abilities of another class, they want their own unique abilities. Or they do not want to hurt clerics by taking away one of the clerics abilities.[/quote]

Druids dont want a rez spell... demensia wants a rez spell... and if this is the only solution why is it that you are proposing all these other solutions to the problem?


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Best solution imo is give druids a spell which when a person loses all there hps simply succors them to ZI and roots them there for 5 mins instead of dying... make it last say 2 hours and require a decent cost component such as a fire opal. This idea probably needs a lot of refining but in principle it seems quite fun[/quote]

Once again this is druid-overpowering and totally eliminates the death-danger it strips pallys/necros/clerics of their skill death and thus no reason for rez.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> "Preservation" of a corpse to increase its rez timer would be ~~something unique~~ to the druids (though I could see it being given to necros too), and I don't see why it wouldn't take care of a great deal of routine outdoors groups not picking druids because they can't rez.[/quote]

I agree with this.... depending on the right circumstances... timers... and implementation.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why not a "summon corpse" type of spell. It makes sense that you'd summon the corpse through the earth to a point elsewhere in the zone. In PoP zones it happens faster than just waiting on the timer. Rez just doesn't seem to fit the druid from what lore I understand.[/quote]

How would this in any way help druids get a group? Also its not needed with pop gy's so no one would group a druid do to this and this spell already exists for necro's/sk's so it would serve druids absolutely no benefit at all.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What about an outdoor-only 96% res? I don't think that would be imbalancing. Druids are the masters of nature and the outdoors afterall. This would be great for pickup groups, and there are lots of experience grinding spots in outdoor zones. Clerics would still be the only class who could 96% res both indoors & outdoors.[/quote]

I DO think it would be imbalancing... imbalancing to the point where clerics would need to be totally revamped to make up for the utter destruction of their class.... And im fairly sure no druid would want this.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I am trying to be constructive here but this is a thought, and this would need careful thinking throughÖ One possible solution might be to introduce a group rez with possibly an expensive component. Do not give druids the single person rez instead give a druid the group version requiring a full mana pool to cast. Give a much much lower mana cost version to clerics maybe that doesnít require the component so they have something way better (maybe also enable them to stack it with MGB for raids). Clerics then would remain the masters of rezzing making druids very poor secondary healers, which is what we are supposed to be. Because the only rez we have is a group one at high mana cost this would mean it would not be that good for using on single people including us solo (where we donít need any help) because of the downtime and cost, so its main use would be for group wipeouts, thereby increasing our group desireability but not giving us much extra benefit elsewhere.[/quote]

The day druids get a group rez is the day I quit eq all together and never buy another sony product ever again... I dont understand why you cant understand that rez is not the answer for druids... not to mention a group rez that not even clerics, the masters of holyness and rez's, could preform.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
GY and Zoneline Rez?[/quote]

Good idea... lets implement a gy rez stick so we can trivialize death to the point where we should all just die and then we can get all our exp back... what would be the point of loosing exp in the firstplace if you could get it back by simply talking to an npc??? It simply wouldnt make sense if they do this they might as well take away the exp death penalty all together and re-evaluate the entire pally/cleric class... ohh and give necro's a present for the loss of their spell too.

keep thinkin :P

Rheims
06-12-2003, 07:29 PM
I don't think rez is the reason druids have trouble getting groups. It's several factors, but one of the primary ones is the perception that all druids solo to 55 or higher and are inexperienced in group situations.

And as a 65 druid, I do not want to be given rez.

FyyrLuStorm
06-12-2003, 07:31 PM
"demensia wants a rez spell"

I don't know if that is true or not. It looks like he was consolidating a myriad of posts that were lost and buried under detritus in the other thread.

Hell, Foulsbane(cleric) wants Druids to have a slow spell(not even an 'animal' slow).



[And please don't spell his name dimensia or demensia.
I know no one but him picked his name, but some could argue that the misspellings are intentional and derogatory. 'Tis spelled Demasia.]

Hvyarms Steelfists
06-12-2003, 07:37 PM
mispelling was a complete accident... srry.

FyyrLuStorm
06-12-2003, 07:53 PM
nps,

there was a typo(?) from a previous poster, im sure it was honest mistake.

you can call me Fyyr, if I can call you Hvy?

Hvyarms Steelfists
06-12-2003, 08:06 PM
hehe /nod of course

Onetree Tallbarque
06-12-2003, 08:26 PM
Not a Res, something more druidly...

<strong>Reincarnation</strong>

<em>The point about this spell line would be to reunite the deceased with their corpse AND introduce a bit of fun factor, nothing more. There are benefits, cost and some risks.</em>

As druids when a group or raid wiped we used to be charged with bringing a cleric to the corpses for res. What a pain that used to be. Wouldn't it be great to provide this service more efficiently?

Basically, a druid casts a Reincarnation spell on a corpse. An Accept/Decline box is presented to the player wherever they are. If they accept they zone to their corpse much like being resed. For a time they have reincarnation effects.

Note: <span style="text-decoration:underline">No exp is returned by Reincarnation.</span> That's the domain of clerics and, to a lesser extent, paladins and necromancers. Let them do the reses and have the advantage of returning exp to players. Our job is to reunite player with corpse. Reincarnation would not step on the toes of Res.

So where's the fun factor? <em>Accepting Reincarnation would bring you back over your corpse as a random animal model for that zone.</em> This would include any of the animal models used in player illusions and pets (eg. wolf, alligator, booboo the bear) and perhaps even horses since the model is everywhere. What a hoot that would be. Note that it's only an illusion. You could click it off if you wanted. Zoning or relogging would also drop it.

Imagine a monk reincarated as booboo the bear... feigned.

Btw, (1) Res Effects overwrite Reinc Effects; (2) being reincarated does not change the ability to be resed or the res timer or corpse decay rate; (3) a Reinc Accept/Decline box only lasts so long; (4) a spell component is always used upon successful casting of the spell even if declined or box timer expires; (5) animals do not equip weapons or wear armor per the normal animation rules; and (6) Reinc Effects do eventually wear off.

Spell cost: fire beetle eye (stackable). Yes, I know they aren't stackable now but SOE can change that. Plus, this would create a market for fire beetle eyes among newbies. They could earn cash while providing a service to higher level players. Yes, it's possible to use all your eyes and thereby disallow the casting of certain fire-based spells. You just have to stock a good supply, don't you. :)

Scenario 1: An exp group loses its cleric in battle. Oops. No other res class in sight. What happens? A boring CR. This often takes the life out of a hunt. Let me repeat that: This often takes the life right out of a hunt! But wait, a druid (either nearby or in the group) casts Reincarnate on the cleric's corpse. Said cleric then reses self on the spot, meds and the hunt resumes. Yay druid.

Scenario 2: Raid wipes completely. Unfortunately, no cleric could box another cleric before said wipe -- the clerics were, after all, busy healing (the druids were doing, what else, utility things). What happens? 30 minutes of boring CR. This can take the life right out of a raid and may even spoil it. But wait, a druid had cast Reincarnate on a cleric or other druid or other res class who died early (and the player left the box up)! Smart druid. They provided insurance that a raid wipe won't be so costly. A reincarnated druid would reincarnate a cleric or other res class and recovery begins toot suite. Or, a reincarnated cleric or other res class would begin the recovery themself directly. The choice was made by the initial druid whose foresight and action saved the day.

Scenario 3: A lone druid encounters a clothed, resable corpse in a difficult spot. No cleric is convenient. After getting consent from the player the corpse is dragged to a safer location. Deceased is offered reincarnation and accepts it. No exp was returned. Deceased can now call upon a reser on their own schedule. Their anxiety over being reunited with their items is lessened. The druid mosies along happy to have provided a useful service that didn't step on any toes. (Clerics typically don't have invis, after all. So in doing this, in many cases, the druid is doing a cleric a favor.)

Scenario 4: Solo. A solo druid gains no real benefit from reincarnation. About all they can do is make their way back to their corpse as normal and then maybe cast reincarnate just to get the animal illusion for a bit. They still have to look for a res.

I've thought a lot about this. Every programming component pretty much already exists. (I have this insight because I've been a programmer for 20 years, more than some SOE engineers.) All that remains is to assemble them into an interesting spell line for Druids.

Spell line? Yes, higher level reincarnation spells would give the reincarnated other minor abilities useful in CR: for example, UV, see invis, EB, normal invis, 10-minute camo, or combos like those given by Leviathan Eyes.

Where's the hitch? It would probably be in the faction department. If you were a vendor how would you feel if an otherwise dangerous animal ran up to you? Exactly. The benefits can be balanced with this risk. After all, this is not without precedent.

But wait, couldn't someone use reincarnation to become one with the otherwise dangerous animal inhabitants of an area and, thus, be able to move freely within that area? It's possible. It would add an interesting dimension to the game in some cases. But I wouldn't mind trading 4% real exp for this ability in those cases. Would you? Indeed, some quests could conceivably be built around it.

In fact, if we quested for these spells, so much the better. It's one of the main reasons I still play the game, after all.


In conclusion: I'm a Druid, I don't want res. Let me repeat that: I don't want res. But I would like to be able to add something fun and potentially useful to the game, something along the lines of a service we used to provide... but this time more efficiently. And fun!

FyyrLuStorm
06-12-2003, 08:35 PM
"Scenario 1: An exp group loses its cleric in battle. Oops. No other res class in sight. What happens? A boring CR. This often takes the life out of a hunt. Let me repeat that: This often takes the life right out of a hunt! But wait, a druid (either nearby or in the group) casts Reincarnate on the cleric's corpse. Said cleric then reses self on the spot, meds and the hunt resumes. Yay druid."

That goes back to what I have been saying, Summon Group spell. Twas on the table before. That's what that spell should do. Speed up hunting, raiding, and CRs.

Hannorel
06-12-2003, 09:19 PM
Just so you know, I have a cleric main, and a druid alt; that's not to derail, but to explain where my point of view comes from.

I like the idea of the Reincarnation spell, and suggest different components. If you have a LQ animal pelt on your cursor when you cast the spell, the person comes back as that creature.

I think Reincarnation stays in line with the nature (no pun intended) of the druid class and its lore.

I do not think the druid class needs or deserves an actual Rez line of spells. It is an old line, but it rings true: if you want to be able to rez and heal like a cleric, then make a cleric.

Tenpo SoulBlighter
06-12-2003, 09:38 PM
As a necro I have been following this pretty close. Well, needless to say, MOST of you have your heads screwed on straight. Congrats.

KittenPawTZ
06-12-2003, 10:52 PM
I don't want *any* kind of ressurection/reincarnation/rejuvenation spell.

I get groups just fine, groups need/want me for my healing, buffing and nuking abilities, not for any kind of ressurection.

I can see myself enhancing abilities of paladins/necromancers to ressurect (druid spell + paladin 90 ressurect = 96 ressurect), but that's it.

Why continue on this pointless debate ?

Orolmy
06-12-2003, 11:44 PM
Likewise Kitten, I do not want a rez spell.. I am not a cleric, I am not a palladin. I'm a druid, I want to be in touch with nature, not the dead thank you very much.

Some of the ideas posted are interesting, but I just do not see the NEED for us to be a wannabe cleric. If I group up, it's not to be a backup healer or main healer.. it's to be a druid, someone who nukes, dots, snares, roots, fire and cold debuffs, sends in her DC pet, heals herself when I overnuke (gimme Boggle PLZKTHX), and heal the cleric when she pulls agro off the tank when she heals him.

That's the role I take, not cleric wannabe. Dont' get me wrong, a rez spell would be nice, I'm inherently lazy, the idea of being able to rez myself when I *mess* up whilst I'm soloing, rather than pull a guild cleric to laugh at me and THEN rez me would be nice.. I'm sure EVERY class would like that ability, but it's not something we NEED as a class defining skill, in my humble opinion.

Demasia
06-13-2003, 12:41 AM
deleted

Islington
06-13-2003, 02:34 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong><em>L1ndara</em></strong> said:
Just read a different freaking board. Sheesh.[/quote]

Nah, I'm comfortable here. See you around.

Toodles.

TeriMoon
06-13-2003, 02:36 AM
I'd like to see a rez that people would find acceptable more easily available. But I don't want it for myself, no. Necros are a good candidate. I like the idea of reworking the EE to make it something less expensive and more readily available.

It would really need to be a rez that people would find acceptable though. 90% rez doesn't work for a lot of folks, so that would help much in forming groups. I think most folks would be ok with 93%. Dunno though. Personally, I've never cared much. Its not all that hard to make up, I'm just grateful when I don't have to make up the whole amount. Many a paladin has rezzed my curled up sad looking little self =/.

Nindara26
06-13-2003, 03:45 AM
I think some of these ideas are really great but I just don't see where giving druids *any* type of rez is going to work. I am sorry if you think I am being disrespectful, you can add this post to the pages of others who so obviously don't agree with you and call me names also, it doesn't matter, but it seems most of us don't feel as if we need it. I have played a druid on eq off and on for over 3 years and I love my druid even with all the class arguing etc. Taking and giving druids rez would cause even more problems than the CH did. While I am sure that everyone appreciates the effort those are putting into these ideas, maybe that effort would be better spent thinking of more *druid ideas* fix our epic up a bit, reduce the timer on our dots, the animal slow etc. Theres plenty of other good ideas out there to work with, expand on. If people continue to push for a druid rez it'll be war all over again and I don't know about the rest of you but I like playing eq in peace. I am sure many of you mean well but I and many of my druid friends on 7th hammer feel this can lead to nowhere but disaster. It seems people should be more worried about expanding on our current abilities than taking from other classes especially as we all know how that has turned out in the past. And putting everyones post on a separate page in hopes they'll be deleted simply because they ( and I ) don't agree with you seems kind of childish, this is a board where we discuss things? While we are at it, I would love to see a vote, a poll started about this to see how many people want this rez and how many don't cause where I am sitting at now and all the posts I have read the majority are not in favor of this.

TeriMoon
06-13-2003, 03:58 AM
The issue is, and was fairly well agreed-upon, that <em>one</em> factor reducing the grouping desireability of druids is the fact that when we are the main healer, there may not be an acceptable rez for party members within the group. This is associated with <strong>downtime</strong> for the group to seek an outside rez and <strong>the perception of experience loss</strong> when getting a 90% rez from a paly instead of a click from a cleric.

Its not a thread solely about what a druid rez would look like as though it were a foregone conclusion that we are going to get one. I think its clear that the majority don't want that ability for our class.

It is a brainstorming attempt to think about class balance and game balance and use creative thinking to see if a reasonable solution can be arrived upon. It doesnt mean anyone thinks it will even be implemented. Its just a discussion. Its not a threat to anyone.

How can anyone truly say that they have not been affected by lack of acceptable rez when putting together groups or lfg?

Its a point of game balance that is worth talking about without getting all upset and worried. If people could calm down it might turn into an interesting discussion.

Autius
06-13-2003, 04:45 AM
Demisia.

When you take away all of our "potion" abilities, and a add a water down rez, you become a weak cleric. Now. We are not flaming you, for the most part, anyway. We just don't understand. There is a class that does everything you want. It is called a cleric.

I have a reasonably good rep on my server. I have only played 80 days in the last 3 years. I can utilize every facet of my abilities to maximize my class. Druids are more balanced then they have been. You have 300 days played and have decided that druids are broken. Between every poster here, we have thousands of days played and we say we don't.

I really do give up. I'm sorry you wasted your 300 days. We really are a great class in the hands of a good player.

ZorxEQ
06-13-2003, 04:50 AM
Druids should never get a rez. But i agree, rez is way too powerful in EQ.

There are port stones in PoK, it took an ability from us. I think it would be fair to implement a REZ stone.

Just loot up your UNRESSED corpse and after a few hours go to a shrine located at a far point in an underused zone and retrieve up to 90% of the exp (depending level of char) of all unrezzed and looted corpses. That shrine would be in a zone without access of nearby portals.

There would be a 3 day counter after the no res loot. So group members who die can go to the shrine if there was no cleric around.

--Zorx

Lumenku
06-13-2003, 04:59 AM
ďIt is an old line, but it rings true: if you want to be able to rez and heal like a cleric, then make a cleric.Ē

As it happens nobody here has suggested we heal or rez as well as clerics.

Lets make this absolutely clear, we want to be able to group. We donít want to be clerics. Unfortunately the biggest obstacle to us grouping is not being able to perform the role as primary healer in the absence of a cleric due to our inability to mitigate experience loss through rezzes.

It is dumb beyond comprehension to suggest that we just change classes (and you are not the first person on this board to come up with this glorious piece of insight). Most high level druids including myself have put a huge amount of time into developing our characters. It is simply not an option from most peoples perspectives to start again with a different class.

If Sony took away your ability to group (which is more a less whats happened to us since level 50) and said donít worry just start another class, how would you feel? This issue should have been dealt with a long time ago. I donít think I have ever seen anyone on this board complain that clerics shouldnít be given more powers to solo so why do you try to highjack any positive discussion on how we might become more groupable. Why donít you come out with some positive ideas about how we might become more group friendly? If you canít do that why donít you just FO back to your own board because you have nothing to contribute here.

Rolaque
06-13-2003, 05:34 AM
Lots of posts, and good reading. Let me add my thoughts, and preface it by explaining one thing I thought was peculiar about the way EQ was initially set-up, and how that continues.

Basically, each race gets a healer of some kind. High elves get clerics, wood elves get druids, barbarians get shaman, ogres get shaman, dark elves get clerics, dwarves have clerics, and so on. Humans can be any class, and halflings get druids and clerics (something I never understood why the shoeless shorties get both, but that's not the point here). In the D&D world, clerics have always been the prime healers, with druids and shaman being in the priest class, but with only some of the priest spells.

Race seems to only affect faction. It doesn't affect resurrections. That part I find peculiar. For instance, a dark elf cleric can invoke the power of his god to resurrect a non-believer. While you can logically argue that it should be that way, and I will agree that a DE cleric should be able to 96% rezz a fellow DE. But when it comes time to rezz a high elf warrior (who's undoubtedly kos to all DE's ), the DE's cleric rezz should be at a sufficiently lower lever - say only 75%.

So, that brings me to the point. It would be reasonable if druids or shaman could restore to life (in some fashion), to their own kind (same race), or others of similar belief or faction.

To me, it doesn't come down to what would make for a better group. It only matters from a roleplay view. After all, while none of us might actively roleplay in the game, we in fact do roleplay. Our characters are forced into a roleplay mode because of the way the game engine restricts what we can or cannot do.

So, if we want to get a new ability - some type of resurrection spell or ability or device. Then we should persue it from a roleplay point, and not from a grouping point. We have a better chance of making a logical argument from an rp point, than from a grouping point (which ultimately can sound like either a bad case of envy or the whines if not thought out and written well).

Rolaque
Saryrn

Gwynet Woodsister
06-13-2003, 06:03 AM
All what is listed is nothing new as already belonging to another class, even with some changes. Besides, there is nothing here that would fit a druid IMO.

Hvyarms Steelfists
06-13-2003, 06:05 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>To all of the wonderful people who have already demonstrated that they are either rude, obnoxious, disrespectful and/or just ignorant, thank you. Thank you for revealing yourself for what you are.

1. I have played my druid since release and have roughly 300 days played on my druid alone. Who the hell are you to tell me what class I want to be?

2. Only two of the ideas were my own and proper credit to the authors to the other ideas is quite visible.

3. I'm not the druid OR ANY CLASS who has shared the view that the present "rez" system is not conducing to more wide spread grouping. If you want that debate, then go happy in the thread about 90% rez for druids.

4. This thread isn't even about whether or not "druids should get a rez" and I am perplexed how anyone could have thought otherwise.

5. One would think that clerics would want to see more ideas developed. Derailing threads and insulting people will not stop the developers from coming up with a solution of their own. You saw how they solved the problem with "enchanters soloing minis".

6. I broke down and made a cleric. Oh, but that was three and half years ago and 110 days played. So please save that idiotic and unoriginal recommendation for someone else you are trying to discredit. Every time I read that, I thought about my six year old and how he argues.

7. I am hopeful that some of the garbage posted in this thread can be moved to rants where it appropriately belongs.[/quote]

Between your druid and your cleric you have played 410 days then in the last 3 and half years?.... wow :p

Ok so if this thread isnt about druids getting a rez why do soo many of your suggestions suggest this exact route?

Also it's much easier to rant and cry and call this person a troll when everyone shows logical problems with the majority of the ideas then it is to actually defend said idea's eh?

Call me a troll all you want, summate my post to the point of "waaaah" all you want, but its obvious to see you have no defense against my points or else you would have bothered to defend what you posted.

Foulsbane01
06-13-2003, 06:15 AM
The reason druids will never get a res spell, at least a 90% one or 96% one is because it would make their soloing even easier. The slight risk there is for druids soloing, with charm or otherwise, would be too reduced if they could just res themselves.

Autumn10
06-13-2003, 06:25 AM
What's the subject anyway? :p Drop the wole res thing, it won't happen and most don't want it to. Preservation of the corpse timer, while being a concept with merit, will not get druids groups.

Glorybme
06-13-2003, 06:25 AM
<hr>
<font size=1>Basically, a druid casts a Reincarnation spell on a corpse. An Accept/Decline box is presented to the player wherever they are. If they accept they zone to their corpse much like being resed. For a time they have reincarnation effects.

Note: No exp is returned by Reincarnation. That's the domain of clerics and, to a lesser extent, paladins and necromancers. Let them do the reses and have the advantage of returning exp to players. Our job is to reunite player with corpse. Reincarnation would not step on the toes of Res.

So where's the fun factor? Accepting Reincarnation would bring you back over your corpse as a random animal model for that zone. This would include any of the animal models used in player illusions and pets (eg. wolf, alligator, booboo the bear) and perhaps even horses since the model is everywhere. What a hoot that would be. Note that it's only an illusion. You could click it off if you wanted. Zoning or relogging would also drop it.
</font><hr>

I think it is an awesome idea. I like what Onetree has to say about this. Everyone has stepped on our toes with snare, ports, buffs and debuffs, why not let us have something useful and fun that steps on no one's toes. No rez exp, no summoning a corpse to a safe spot. I like this idea very much.

Stormhaven
06-13-2003, 06:55 AM
There's a crapload of necros just like there's a crapload of druids. Necros have the benefit of already having a rez-line spell (so no one can complain if it's actually made useful).

Give necros the ability to imbue [for tradeskillers] or create [requiring an expensive reagent] a single-shot rez item. You make them lore and expensive - lore so you can't horde them, and expensive so that if you have to replace one of these items you still feel it. I'm talking around the 2-5kpp area. You also make the reagent or catalyst easy to purchase, not this "level 45-59 sacrificial player" crud. More like a gem or brew that you can pick up directly from a merchant (with that 2-5kpp price tag already attached.)

Yes I understand that there's players out there with multiple millions of plat, but lets face it, those players probably already have a cleric epic twink, so they're not really involved in this conversation. 40pp? Hell no, you mine as well implement the "rez stone" right next to the graveyard at that point.

WyteNK
06-13-2003, 07:49 AM
<strong><span style="text-decoration:underline">BACK TO THE IDEAS... </span></strong>

The facts:
- People hunt for xp
- People die hunting for xp
- People want xp back from dying while hunting for xp
- People want their gear back from dying while hunting for xp

<strong>A different solution to rez: </strong>
Give Druids a group buff, relatively short duration, that will mitigate xp loss <strong>upon death</strong>.

Here's what I mean:
There's a spell line including <strong>Death Pact</strong> and <strong>Divine Intervention</strong> that work along this line of thinking. Upon death, an action occurs.

In the case of the Druid buff, the action is the <strong>immediate compensation</strong> of 70 - 80% xp lost. It also leaves the corpse rezzable for the <strong>remainder</strong> of the lost xp to bring up to 96% returned (or heck, even 100% to make both Druids and Clerics wanted).

<strong>Some highlights</strong>
- It does NOT help with CR (fact no. 4 listed above).
- It does NOT give a prime amount of returned xp.
- It does allow full xp to be returned, however, with a Cleric.
- It will take a buff slot.
- It will use the Druids mana, and if he/she is a primary healer then it will count.
- It will use a regeant, preferably our Wake of Karana regeant.
- It will have a short duration, ie: 30 minutes, so it can't be whored in the bazaar/pok.


Pick this one apart Hvy, and I mean that in a friendly way because if this has holes and/or exploitable features then I don't want it.

[edit] Fixed ezCodes.

Wyte - Storm Warden on Rallos Zek

WyteNK
06-13-2003, 08:05 AM
To add a few ramblings to my previous post...

I can't help but think of the Lord of the Rings scene, where Arwen says, holding Frodo: "<strong>What grace has been given me, let it pass to him</strong> ". So... maybe call it "<strong>Tunare's Grace</strong>", or something like that. ;)

Balance ramblings...
- Raids wouldn't use this, because buff slots are precious. Plus it doesn't help with CR's at all.
- It doesn't help soloing too much because it's a group spell, hindering mana and costing pp for regeants.
- If you use it, and happen to NOT get a cleric (which happens sometimes anyway) at least you're not losing ALL your xp.

Wyte

Demasia
06-13-2003, 08:36 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Between your druid and your cleric you have played 410 days then in the last 3 and half years?.... wow
<em>more superfluous babble</em>...but its obvious to see you have no defense against my points or else you would have bothered to defend what you posted. [/quote]

I play on the Bristlebane server. My druid's name is Aawulf and my cleric's name is Medaawulf. That I have played my druid since release, that is over 4 years for the mathematically impaired. I normally sleep two to four hours a night; one enduring benefit of my time in the military and working full-time while in college. Since you are obviously challenging the authenticity of the days played, you might also add and consider my 65 chanter and stable of other characters. I have 3 children who 6, 2 and 7 months old. Because I work for me, my wife and I have found that my being up all hours of the night has been condusive to her retaining her sanity by virtue of being able to sleep at night. Incidentally, I have had multiple accounts since pre-Kunark and have been two boxing since then.

I didn't reply to your rhetoric because it had already been soundly defeated on the the other thread by others. Also, I didn't want to feed trolling on a thread that a opened for brainstorming ONLY. Your complete disregard for the purpose and intent of this thread reveals more about you than it does to advance your agenda of sabotage.

Demasia
06-13-2003, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Just loot up your UNRESSED corpse and after a few hours go to a shrine located at a far point in an underused zone and retrieve up to 90% of the exp (depending level of char) of all unrezzed and looted corpses. That shrine would be in a zone without access of nearby portals.[/quote]

To be able to loot the "corpses" for later rezzes at a shrine, perhaps all corpse could have a stackable "Soul Stone" that is deleted when a corpse is flagged as "rezzed" for exp? Otherwise, the Soul Stone could be turned in at the Shrine for Rezzes.

Demasia
06-13-2003, 09:21 AM
<strong>Import Dead</strong>

Change #1
The Rez debate is the strongest source of public outcry. I do not propose nor think it necessary to give Druids the ability to Rez. The biggest downfall to dying is the experience loss. And it is the Cleric's job to get us that experience back. I don't want to take that key role away from them. Yet another aspect of dying while grouped or on a raid is that you're no longer contributing to the success of the group! You're absence of ability has lessened your group or raid's overall effectiveness. What I propose is that the Druid class assist in getting dead players back into action as soon as possible so they can be effective again. There will be plenty enough time for the Cleric to perform Rezes later. Here's how:

A line of spells (at level 24, 34, 44, 54, 64) that when cast on a player's corpse will 1) teleport the player back to their corpse 2) have no detrimental Rez effects (because a "Rez" was not performed, just a teleport) 3) a portion of HPs and Mana are intact that scale with the level of the spell being cast. The spell would be cast prior-to a Rez. A message box similar to the Cleric's Rez confirmation would pop-up asking the player if they accept or decline. It could only be cast once on a corpse and only if a Rez has NOT been performed previously on the corpse. This would serve to get players missing in action due to death back into the group or raid and in a somewhat better position to once again lend support.

L24 - Nature's Guard - 100Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 20% HP, 20% Mana
L34 - Nature's Conserve - 200Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 30% HP, 30% Mana
L44 - Nature's Preserve - 300Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 40% HP, 40% Mana
L54 - Nature's Embrace - 400Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 50% HP, 50% Mana
L64 - Nature's Gift - 500Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 75% HP, 75% Mana

Kaidian Blade
Just got my shots!
Posts: 45 (6/13/03 11:48 am)

Demasia
06-13-2003, 09:23 AM
moved to end

AmonraSet
06-13-2003, 09:42 AM
"Scenario 1: An exp group loses its cleric in battle. Oops. No other res class in sight. What happens? A boring CR. This often takes the life out of a hunt. Let me repeat that: This often takes the life right out of a hunt! But wait, a druid (either nearby or in the group) casts Reincarnate on the cleric's corpse. Said cleric then reses self on the spot, meds and the hunt resumes. Yay druid."

/sarcasm on

So lets look at the scenario.
1) Cleric in group dies, and
2) Group is in an inconvenient spot, and
3) There is a druid in group or nearby, and
4) There is no cleric in a nearby group.

You can then help the group recover more quickly.

Wow. Awesome. I can see people tripping over themselves to add druids to the group for that ability.

/sarcasm off

I would have said something similar about the druid rezzing on a raid proposal, but I think you get the idea.

Ackar
06-13-2003, 09:57 AM
How about some sort of 'hollow' 0% rez. It gets the person to their corpse like a regular rez but doesn't alter the rez timer, so that a cleric/pally/necro can perform an exp rez when they arrive.

That way if the cleric dies you can return them to the group to perform the exp rezzes.

Orolmy
06-13-2003, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Unrelated, Trolling, etc. (hopefully by copying them here the Mods will delete the original posts)[/quote] Because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they're trolling.

Demasia
06-13-2003, 10:52 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they're trolling.[/quote]

I agree. But in this thread you could only be disagreeing that brainstorming has value. This is not the druid rez discussion thread. I started the thread for constructive purposes only and even stated so.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This thread is for those who have ideas, those who would want to help refine ideas, those who are curious and for the trolls who refuse to respect and will try to derail the constructive nature of this thread.[/quote]
If you aren't contributing an idea, helping refine ideas or curiously browsing, then why post something in this thread? There are many ideas submitted here and several of them have nothing to do with druids or rezzes, but do address the "rez" issue as ideas. Another thread already exists for those who are focused on a "druid rez" and want to argue about it or express their opinion on that single idea.

Demasia
06-13-2003, 11:06 AM
<strong>Vessel of Preservation</strong>

Vessel of Preservation:
Mana- 300, Cast- 10 seconds, Reagent- Imbued Emerald
Description- binds a single corpse into the spell's reagent gem which is then placed on the recipient's cursor and can be stored in his/her inventory. While the gem is intact (until the person zones or succors), that corpse timer is suspended.

~Firemynd

Wiggume
06-13-2003, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Hvyarms Steelfists says:

Druids dont want a rez spell... demensia wants a rez spell... and if this is the only solution why is it that you are proposing all these other solutions to the problem? [/quote]

actually the post that you quoted and replied to was written by me not Demasia. I actually donít care personally if druids get rez or not. I already gave up on the class.

But there are a lot of druids who would like to group for exp especially since Sony has killed soloing for them. The problem in my mind is that most of them donít realize why they have a hard time finding groups. Well or as I also said in another post. They are too reluctant to just bail on the druid class and start overÖ hehe but thatís another topic. With the changes in group EXP Sony might actually give druids something. The suggestions and popular opinions here might affect what druids end up getting. They should be asking for a new roof for their house. But many of them are asking for an X-Box instead. I read a lot of these suggestions and think wow that would be a fun spell to play with but its not going to get druids into groups.

Go here
pub149.ezboard.com/fthedr...1221.topic (http://pub149.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovegeneral.showMessage?topicID=31221.t opic)

and point out one non-rez related ability that is going to get druids into groups. Druids are healers. This isnít a new idea. There is a reason that druids cant substitute for a cleric in many situations and its not that they need a shorter recast time on SoTW.

FyyrLuStorm
06-13-2003, 12:05 PM
"Why, exactly, do you keep reposting everything we've said? You're eating bandwidth and wasting space."

It is because he wants to mod this thread.

He is quoting what he thinks is drivel, and what he would probably be deleting if he had real mod access.

I think he is doing a great job of it as well.

Naathan Kaine
06-13-2003, 01:33 PM
Just because I dont agree with you, doesnt make it false.

There is no REZ issue. You think that a REZ will be the fix all of the druid class? That some kind of lame bind rush REZ will make things better and make you wanted in groups? The answer to that is NO. There is no REZ issue, there are clerics in the game that can rez, paly's in the game that can rez and even Necros in the game that can rez. There is no need for another class to have ressurection or even some gimped out TL to corpse ressucitation spell.

You are putting up ideas without even thinking of the higher plan or the bigger picture. You think "HEY this would be great for ME" without even thinking of what the repercussions of these stupid spells idea would mean out in the game.

You honestly think they want a quad/charm solo class to have its own rez? Or have content trivialized by having everyone bind at the same spot and having a druid bot tling everyone to their corpse from that bind spot to bind rush mobs?

Having Ressurection and good heals are the clerics bread and butter group getter, if they gave this stuff out to druids what are they gonna do? They cant solo like you can for XP.

Why dont you try thinking of things that will make a druid MORE group friendly rathe than, how can i trick SoE into giving druids a rez. Ever thought of pushing for group heals? Or maybe have druids get some sort of slow to at least match the bards/beastlords?

Leave rez alone. Its find just the way it is, where it is.

And before some of you go off in a "HEY SHUT UP ROGUE" you dont know crap about druids, let me tell you that I probably have played a druid longer than many of you and I am definately not ignorat of the druid concerns. Just because I can play multiple classes doesnt make me ignorat, if anything makes me more knowledgeable of the game and being able to see things from more than 1 perspective.

P.S. If you gonna keep posting 1001 ideas on how to turn a druid into a cleric, how about at least putting up a couple of bucks for a EZ board account or contribute to the community chest so you dont cost the site any $$.

/rant off

Autius
06-13-2003, 01:35 PM
I don't agree. Here's why.

Part of brainstorming is to put out a large portion of ideas, from the ridiculous to the clever. During the process, the ideas that will not work are removed and posted.

If he would like to moderate the thread, the real way to do it would be to remove both the ideas that were discarded(i.e. the rez issue) and the posts responding to it. This would keep the pages and pages of threads down and allow real ideas to be posted.

He may not like our responses, but then, he didn't have to put them in a public forum.

You can quote this too.

Demasia
06-13-2003, 02:11 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>P.S. If you gonna keep posting 1001 ideas on how to turn a druid into a cleric, how about at least putting up a couple of bucks for a EZ board account or contribute to the community chest so you dont cost the site any $$.

/rant off[/quote]

Yes it was a "rant" and appropriately belongs on that forum.

I'm glad you are running out of things to say that you resort to what I quoted. Although it is none of your business, I do have EZ Board account and site that I have supported for nearly 4 years. Unfortunately after sending my computer to the shop for a new power supply I had to travel to my home town for several weeks to attend to my mother. When I returned, the computer repair shop informed me that they took my computer "to the dump" (yeah right) because they couldn't reach me and a few weeks had passed. The information for accessing my control center was lost along with numerous accounts when I lost that computer. The people at EZBoards are trying to find a way to send the information to me, but since I have no idea what email was then and they didn't have the secruity questions that they do now (or I used a clever response that wasn't so clever without my account password file) it has been a game of tag over the last couple months.

I will appropriately delete this entry in a day or two and copy it to the Unrelated information post.

Naathan, I will add that there is no way a rogue would be so passionate about the cleric's rez to the point you are obsessed with it. I submit you have a cleric and are too dishonest to admit it, thinking you will look more objective as a rogue. Either way, I don't associate with people like you in RL and have no desire to further engage with you in a forum. If you have ideas to add, then do so freely. If you want to continue being a troll, then please take it to a thread for debate. We tried to escape you by making this thread for more enlightened discussion, so please feel unwelcome in this thread.

Tiane
06-13-2003, 03:09 PM
I agree with Fyyr. And that means irrelevant trolling posts will be amalgamted and then put out of their misery.

It would be nice if people would simply STOP with the useless unhelpful posts. Here's a clue: If you have nothing of value to add, DONT POST ON THIS THREAD.

"Druids dont need rez u r stupid" and the like is useless. This is for ideas and game balance discussion, so no more of that.

Clear?

Tia

Naathan Kaine
06-13-2003, 03:29 PM
Actually the highest level cleric I ever got was to lvl 40. I've played lvl 65 clerics on raids as well but thats beside the point.

This should be in the game balance section.

Wanna hear something helpful?
Think of another idea, cause Druid REZ isnt it.

Tiane
06-13-2003, 03:34 PM
Hey guess what! We dont have a game balance section!

Know what else? If you actually READ THE DAMN THREAD you'd see that there were a lot of other ideas here besides druid Rez.

Thanks so much for the input. Truly helpful.

Tia

Demasia
06-13-2003, 03:57 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This should be in the game balance section.

Wanna hear something helpful?
Think of another idea, cause Druid REZ isnt it.
Nathan
65 Deciever
Township Rebellion
$tormhammer[/quote]

To let you reply to yourself. Practice what you preach.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Lets try some reading comprehension and read the app thread.--Naathan on his guild message board[/quote]

KittenPawTZ
06-13-2003, 09:20 PM
I'm sorry, Demasia, but you will not get any support in your (already lost?) crusade by antagonising people, and selecting those who can speak, and those who cannot.

We already have Tunare knows how many threads running on this board about "how to improve druids". In my humble opinion it wasn't a good move of the Admins to let this "solo" thread running, when others have been explicitely forbidden to do so and asked to post under the main thread.

As far as I'm concerned, druids are perfectly fine.

Give me one group heal (as it was suggested), or perhaps one spell that enhances some abilities of my group members (ressing, slowing, whatever) and I would be in Druid's heaven. Is it absolutely needed ? No.

Autius
06-13-2003, 09:40 PM
Disagreeing with the druid issue is not saying "druids do not need rez u r stupid". I did not say anything deragotory about Demesia. I did not get personal.

I said that Demasia does not understand what druid's want. Put a poll together. See how many think this is a good idea. Deleting my threads does not take away how the majority of people feel.

What the majority of people are saying is, a rez for the druid class is not something we feel needs to be added. This is not insulting, nor degrading to the subject at hand. This does not derail the thread. If you don't want it discussed, then what exactly was your intent for here? There may be other ideas. There are some actually brilliant, well thought out ideas on Ramien(sp?)'s thread. Check it out.

I realize this thread is probaly going to be deleted or put in captions. I am actually rather insulted by this, and do not exactly understand why my, and the majority of the druid base, opinions on our class does not seem to matter much.

Demasia
06-14-2003, 01:20 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What the majority of people are saying is, a rez for the druid class is not something we feel needs to be added.[/quote]

Autius,

That is precisely why you are trolling here. This is not about getting "a rez for druids". Your insistance to argue that debate in this thread is misplaced.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm sorry, Demasia, but you will not get any support in your (already lost?) crusade by antagonising people, and selecting those who can speak, and those who cannot.[/quote]

KittenpawTZ,

I find it odd that your comment about "antagonizing" was directed at me rather than those who continue to state that I should make a cleric because of my views about why our class has problems getting groups now and will even more so in the next dungeon expansion. In fact, you commenting that I'm on an "already lost? crusade" is hardly diplomatic. I'm sorry that we disagree on what is best for our class, but that doesn't mean I should remain silent everytime someone tries to silence my views with inflammatory or disruptive comments in a thread for those who do agree that current rez system is flawed in a game that forces and encourages grouping.

ZennoxTP
06-14-2003, 04:02 AM
I'm glad to see that other people realize how rediculous the EE is. We necro's have wanted to get rid of it, and/or make it something ~50pp vendor purchasable for a long time. Please support us in our cause. :P

I like the idea of imbueing a res into something, maybe they could turn the EE as it is now into a 1 charge res item, and then do as above for necro res.

Demasia
06-14-2003, 04:06 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm glad to see that other people realize how rediculous the EE is. We necro's have wanted to get rid of it, and/or make it something ~50pp vendor purchasable for a long time. Please support us in our cause. :P[/quote]

ZennoxTP,

First, thank you for actually reading the ideas that have been posted. Second, thank you for sharing a necros opinion on one of the ideas.

TeriMoon
06-14-2003, 04:19 AM
I think Necros should get an imbue spell for their EE. Then they should have to imbue it with the blood of the race of the player they are trying to rez before the rez would work. Of course, that would require farming. But it would sort of keep the spirit of the EE thing alive but much less expensive.

Demasia
06-14-2003, 04:26 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Then they should have to imbue it with the blood of the race of the player they are trying to rez[/quote]

Does add a dark side to getting a rez from a necro

Demasia
06-14-2003, 05:17 AM
<strong>Unrelated, Trolling, etc.</strong> (hopefully by copying them here the Mods will delete the original posts)

<span style="font-size:xx-small;"><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Demensia.
We honestly don't want a rez. You say you do not want your invis/lev/eb "potion" abitilites. But you would the minute you needed them.
I don't know what to tell you. They already have a class without those potion abilities, with the ability to run fast and travel through PoP portals. This class is called a cleric.
Look, you are willing to give up alot of druidical powers to be able to rez. I'm not trying to be mean,but you honestly want to be a cleric. I'm serious. You really want to be one.
We don't mind you wanting to be a cleric. No one is really insulted. But the majority of us are druids because we don't want to be clerics. Alot of us agree, yes, there must be something you can do to make us more wanted in a group. But it is not rez.
But please, please, please, if you want to speak for the druid class, speak for all of us, not for you.
Oh, I play on Morell Thule. I'll power level you a cleric if you'd like. Druids are good at that.---Autius (6/12/03 8:49 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Demasia,
Believe it or not, this statement that I'm about to make is not intended to be a flame/attack. Now with that being said, Demasia, why don't you just create a Cleric?
Your whole section on "Rez spells for Druids" smacks of class envy and you slam the majority of the Clerics out there with the same breath.
Just create a freaking Cleric, it's blatently obvious that you're jealous of them.
Venerable Quistil Angelwatch
Archon in the service to the Great Mother Tunare
Proud member of Affliction
Potter (250)---Islington (6/12/03 9:21 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There have been some intriguing ideas in this thread. However, I think rez's are fine the way they are.
Basically, Clerics and their hybrid the Paladin have rezs. I don't really count the Necros since their rez costs an arm and a leg.
That's fine with me. I think our future grouping abilites should come from some other area.
I won't go into my ideas on that here since everyone seems to be trying their best not to hijack this thread and I don't want to be guilty of thread hijacking myself. --Solice Farwalker (6/12/03 10:13 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There is no rez issue in my eyes. I haven't had a problem getting a rez since I was lvl 40 if that.
The REAL druid problem is aggro. Give us a single target or group aggro reducing spell. That's it, bam druids are useful in a group setting again, AND in a raid setting.
Really, I would want a group version aggro reducing spell, with a mana cost of about 800-900. Lasting 30mins.
Rahjeir Spiritwind (6/12/03 10:55 pm)
65th Season Storm Warden
Mithaniel Marr
Officer and Co-Founder of[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why doesn't the original poster just start a cleric if they are so eager to be a rez whore.
It would save this forum from all the cleric baiters this forum seems to have.--Ackar (6/12/03 11:08 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>WAAAAAAA! (paraphrased) --Hyvarms Steelfists (6/12/03 11:16 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think maybe you should create a different character if you really want these abilities. I don't see any reason druids should get any of them. Summon corpse? Group rez? Come on. --Rezinn (6/13/03 12:25 am)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As a necro I have been following this pretty close. Well, needless to say, MOST of you have your heads screwed on straight. Congrats. --Tenpo SoulBlighter (6/13/03 1:38 am)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Likewise Kitten, I do not want a rez spell.. I am not a cleric, I am not a palladin. I'm a druid, I want to be in touch with nature, not the dead thank you very much.
Some of the ideas posted are interesting, but I just do not see the NEED for us to be a wannabe cleric. If I group up, it's not to be a backup healer or main healer.. it's to be a druid, someone who nukes, dots, snares, roots, fire and cold debuffs, sends in her DC pet, heals herself when I overnuke (gimme Boggle PLZKTHX), and heal the cleric when she pulls agro off the tank when she heals him.
That's the role I take, not cleric wannabe. Dont' get me wrong, a rez spell would be nice, I'm inherently lazy, the idea of being able to rez myself when I *mess* up whilst I'm soloing, rather than pull a guild cleric to laugh at me and THEN rez me would be nice.. I'm sure EVERY class would like that ability, but it's not something we NEED as a class defining skill, in my humble opinion. --Orolmy (6/13/03 3:44 am)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I don't think rez is the reason druids have trouble getting groups. It's several factors, but one of the primary ones is the perception that all druids solo to 55 or higher and are inexperienced in group situations.
And as a 65 druid, I do not want to be given rez. --Rheims (6/12/03 11:29 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>To all of the wonderful people who have already demonstrated that they are either rude, obnoxious, disrespectful and/or just ignorant, thank you. Thank you for revealing yourself for what you are.
1. I have played my druid since release and have roughly 300 days played on my druid alone. Who the hell are you to tell me what class I want to be?
2. Only two of the ideas were my own and proper credit to the authors to the other ideas is quite visible.
3. I'm not the druid OR ANY CLASS who has shared the view that the present "rez" system is not conducing to more wide spread grouping. If you want that debate, then go happy in the thread about 90% rez for druids.
4. This thread isn't even about whether or not "druids should get a rez" and I am perplexed how anyone could have thought otherwise.
5. One would think that clerics would want to see more ideas developed. Derailing threads and insulting people will not stop the developers from coming up with a solution of their own. You saw how they solved the problem with "enchanters soloing minis".
6. I broke down and made a cleric. Oh, but that was three and half years ago and 110 days played. So please save that idiotic and unoriginal recommendation for someone else you are trying to discredit. Every time I read that, I thought about my six year old and how he argues.
7. I am hopeful that some of the garbage posted in this thread can be moved to rants where it appropriately belongs. --Demasia (6/13/03 4:41 am)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think some of these ideas are really great but I just don't see where giving druids *any* type of rez is going to work. I am sorry if you think I am being disrespectful, you can add this post to the pages of others who so obviously don't agree with you and call me names also, it doesn't matter, but it seems most of us don't feel as if we need it. I have played a druid on eq off and on for over 3 years and I love my druid even with all the class arguing etc. Taking and giving druids rez would cause even more problems than the CH did. While I am sure that everyone appreciates the effort those are putting into these ideas, maybe that effort would be better spent thinking of more *druid ideas* fix our epic up a bit, reduce the timer on our dots, the animal slow etc. Theres plenty of other good ideas out there to work with, expand on. If people continue to push for a druid rez it'll be war all over again and I don't know about the rest of you but I like playing eq in peace. I am sure many of you mean well but I and many of my druid friends on 7th hammer feel this can lead to nowhere but disaster. It seems people should be more worried about expanding on our current abilities than taking from other classes especially as we all know how that has turned out in the past. And putting everyones post on a separate page in hopes they'll be deleted simply because they ( and I ) don't agree with you seems kind of childish, this is a board where we discuss things? While we are at it, I would love to see a vote, a poll started about this to see how many people want this rez and how many don't cause where I am sitting at now and all the posts I have read the majority are not in favor of this.
Nindara Gold (6/13/03 7:45 am)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Demisia.
When you take away all of our "potion" abilities, and a add a water down rez, you become a weak cleric. Now. We are not flaming you, for the most part, anyway. We just don't understand. There is a class that does everything you want. It is called a cleric.
I have a reasonably good rep on my server. I have only played 80 days in the last 3 years. I can utilize every facet of my abilities to maximize my class. Druids are more balanced then they have been. You have 300 days played and have decided that druids are broken. Between every poster here, we have thousands of days played and we say we don't.
I really do give up. I'm sorry you wasted your 300 days. We really are a great class in the hands of a good player.--Autius (6/13/03 8:45 am)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>All what is listed is nothing new as already belonging to another class, even with some changes. Besides, there is nothing here that would fit a druid IMO.
Gwynet Woodsister, Storm Warden (6/13/03 10:03 am)
Ganni Blackpaws, Ferald Lord
Sylina Uthmatar, Reaver / Songe Eternae, Pathfinder
Venril Sathir[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Between your druid and your cleric you have played 410 days then in the last 3 and half years?.... wow
Ok so if this thread isnt about druids getting a rez why do soo many of your suggestions suggest this exact route?
Also it's much easier to rant and cry and call this person a troll when everyone shows logical problems with the majority of the ideas then it is to actually defend said idea's eh?
Call me a troll all you want, summate my post to the point of "waaaah" all you want, but its obvious to see you have no defense against my points or else you would have bothered to defend what you posted.
Hvyarms Steelfists
Might be Housebroken Posts: 58 (6/13/03 10:05 am)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The reason druids will never get a res spell, at least a 90% one or 96% one is because it would make their soloing even easier. The slight risk there is for druids soloing, with charm or otherwise, would be too reduced if they could just res themselves.
Foulsbane 65 cleric Mith Marr
Posts: 93 (6/13/03 10:15 am)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What's the subject anyway? Drop the wole res thing, it won't happen and most don't want it to. Preservation of the corpse timer, while being a concept with merit, will not get druids groups. -Autumn10 Posts: 13 (6/13/03 10:25 am)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I play on the Bristlebane server. My druid's name is Aawulf and my cleric's name is Medaawulf. That I have played my druid since release, that is over 4 years for the mathematically impaired. I normally sleep two to four hours a night; one enduring benefit of my time in the military and working full-time while in college. Since you are obviously challenging the authenticity of the days played, you might also add and consider my 65 chanter and stable of other characters. I have 3 children who 6, 2 and 7 months old. Because I work for me, my wife and I have found that my being up all hours of the night has been condusive to her retaining her sanity by virtue of being able to sleep at night. Incidentally, I have had multiple accounts since pre-Kunark and have been two boxing since then.
I didn't reply to your rhetoric because it had already been soundly defeated on the the other thread by others. Also, I didn't want to feed trolling on a thread that a opened for brainstorming ONLY. Your complete disregard for the purpose and intent of this thread reveals more about you than it does to advance your agenda of sabotage. -Demasia Posts: 218
(6/13/03 12:36 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Too much wacky weed smoked on this thread.
There is always an asshat that brings up the Rez issue ever since 1999. This is just the latest incarnation of a stupid idea.
-Nathan 65 Deciever Posts: 160 (6/13/03 1:21 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why, exactly, do you keep reposting everything we've said? You're eating bandwidth and wasting space.
I need to stop getting into this thread, it's gonna get annoying soon.
But why do you keep copying all this stuff and not understanding it?--Autius Posts: 24 (6/13/03 1:53 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Just because I dont agree with you, doesnt make it false.
There is no REZ issue. You think that a REZ will be the fix all of the druid class? That some kind of lame bind rush REZ will make things better and make you wanted in groups? The answer to that is NO. There is no REZ issue, there are clerics in the game that can rez, paly's in the game that can rez and even Necros in the game that can rez. There is no need for another class to have ressurection or even some gimped out TL to corpse ressucitation spell.
You are putting up ideas without even thinking of the higher plan or the bigger picture. You think "HEY this would be great for ME" without even thinking of what the repercussions of these stupid spells idea would mean out in the game.
You honestly think they want a quad/charm solo class to have its own rez? Or have content trivialized by having everyone bind at the same spot and having a druid bot tling everyone to their corpse from that bind spot to bind rush mobs?
Having Ressurection and good heals are the clerics bread and butter group getter, if they gave this stuff out to druids what are they gonna do? They cant solo like you can for XP.
Why dont you try thinking of things that will make a druid MORE group friendly rathe than, how can i trick SoE into giving druids a rez. Ever thought of pushing for group heals? Or maybe have druids get some sort of slow to at least match the bards/beastlords?
Leave rez alone. Its find just the way it is, where it is.
And before some of you go off in a "HEY SHUT UP ROGUE" you dont know crap about druids, let me tell you that I probably have played a druid longer than many of you and I am definately not ignorat of the druid concerns. Just because I can play multiple classes doesnt make me ignorat, if anything makes me more knowledgeable of the game and being able to see things from more than 1 perspective.
P.S. If you gonna keep posting 1001 ideas on how to turn a druid into a cleric, how about at least putting up a couple of bucks for a EZ board account or contribute to the community chest so you dont cost the site any $$.
/rant off
Nathan 65 Deciever (6/13/03 5:33 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I don't agree. Here's why.
Part of brainstorming is to put out a large portion of ideas, from the ridiculous to the clever. During the process, the ideas that will not work are removed and posted.
If he would like to moderate the thread, the real way to do it would be to remove both the ideas that were discarded(i.e. the rez issue) and the posts responding to it. This would keep the pages and pages of threads down and allow real ideas to be posted.
He may not like our responses, but then, he didn't have to put them in a public forum.
You can quote this too-- Autius Posts: 25 (6/13/03 5:35 pm)
[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Actually the highest level cleric I ever got was to lvl 40. I've played lvl 65 clerics on raids as well but thats beside the point.
This should be in the game balance section.
Wanna hear something helpful?
Think of another idea, cause Druid REZ isnt it.
Nathan 65 Deciever 6/13/03 7:29 pm)[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm sorry, Demasia, but you will not get any support in your (already lost?) crusade by antagonising people, and selecting those who can speak, and those who cannot.
We already have Tunare knows how many threads running on this board about "how to improve druids". In my humble opinion it wasn't a good move of the Admins to let this "solo" thread running, when others have been explicitely forbidden to do so and asked to post under the main thread.
As far as I'm concerned, druids are perfectly fine.
Give me one group heal (as it was suggested), or perhaps one spell that enhances some abilities of my group members (ressing, slowing, whatever) and I would be in Druid's heaven. Is it absolutely needed ? No.
Edited by: KittenPawTZ at: Posts: 10 6/14/03 1:24 am[/quote]
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Disagreeing with the druid issue is not saying "druids do not need rez u r stupid". I did not say anything deragotory about Demesia. I did not get personal.
I said that Demasia does not understand what druid's want. Put a poll together. See how many think this is a good idea. Deleting my threads does not take away how the majority of people feel.
What the majority of people are saying is, a rez for the druid class is not something we feel needs to be added. This is not insulting, nor degrading to the subject at hand. This does not derail the thread. If you don't want it discussed, then what exactly was your intent for here? There may be other ideas. There are some actually brilliant, well thought out ideas on Ramien(sp?)'s thread. Check it out.
I realize this thread is probaly going to be deleted or put in captions. I am actually rather insulted by this, and do not exactly understand why my, and the majority of the druid base, opinions on our class does not seem to matter much.
--Autius Posts: 27 (6/14/03 1:40 am)[/quote]

</span>

FyyrLuStorm
06-14-2003, 06:17 AM
Autius et. al.,

Do you know what brainstorming is, and how it works?

It is a common way for people and groups of people to come up with ideas.

1) People throw out ideas, no matter how ridiculous
2) No idea is off the table
3) This stimulates an environment of creativity
4) After all the creativity is exhausted, then the criticism starts
5) Then all the ridiculous and idiotic ideas are taken off the table, leaving the realistic and good ideas


Anyways, we have had indulgent threads in the past, but they have been started by moderators, and were heavily moderated by same. Demasia is being indulgent here, working on a BRAINSTORMING thread. I don't know where he is going with it, but I feel that for the work that he has put in, that we allow him to continue.

I am assuming that at some point the ideas that he has gleaned from the other threads, and those from here will be processed for discussion and dismissal. I am willing to let him do that. It is a fair process, I mean people and groups of people use this process all the time to come up with good ideas. But that is how brainstorming works, and I have found that it is a valuable tool, both here and in the real world.

I have offered to mod this thread, but at this time it is not needed(another mod appears to be working here with Dem). If you make a contribution to this thread, especially if you have any inkling that it may be deleted; please save it or the thread locally. And to the mod who is modding here, please do the courtesy of saving what you are removing. It is rather simple, set your profile to have a 100 posts per page, and then just 'Save as..". Good luck all.

Naathan Kaine
06-14-2003, 06:27 AM
Mind asking where you got that supposed info on my chars? Sure as heck it wasnt Legends website. Hah, cause if that is so It also says my twink ranger is our guild leader.

The toons I play are
Rogue
Ranger
Druid
Those are on my account.

Other chars I have played on raids are
Cleric
Shaman
Monk
Bard
Warrior

No INT casters cause I really dont like playing them at all.

Just reread your statement. Somewhere on my guild app board is all that? Look at my sig, my rogue is 65, not 27.

Whatever, I put my ideas for what would be good for druids on the main thread where its supposed to be.

I wish for the 58 heals to be moved down and maybe group heals.

Anyhow, my last post on this demented thread. No pun intended.

GreystoneThorngage
06-14-2003, 06:44 AM
"fixing" druids should have nothing to do with rez's or some ability tied to corpses rez's. It wouldnt fix it. It's extremely situational. If i am reading correctly that when a druid is main healer, that when someone dies there is down time because of rez.

1. If you have a group and are main healer and are that worried someone will die, dont be a healer.

2. Granted things unforeseen can go wrong, but thats why we have this wonderful line of spells called Succor/Evac and AA skills that improve this. Heck there is even a right click item you can buy really cheap.

I never have problems finding rez'es. most people are in places where groups are fairly cloe together and a simple tell to a near by cleric 90% of the time gets you a rez.


I don't personally think druids need to be fixed, tweaked a hair maybe....but not fixed. I dont think we're broken. I find groups often, i am in a raid guild where i am used. I dont see myself being alienated for being a druid..

Scirocco
06-14-2003, 07:09 AM
My impression is that Autius is, in essence, saying that the particular focus of this brainstorming request is based upon a false presumption: that's there's something wrong with the way reses are handled (and apparently motivated by the underlying argument that druids need res). That presumption is clear from the title of the thread: "The Rez Issue," and the statements that "druids need res."

If you're brainstorming on ways to fix the "res issue," the first question to be asked is, "Is there a res issue?" If there is, then ask what are the problems with res that need to be addressed.

I haven't said anything to this point because there is no res issue, and I don't see any problems with res in the game that need to be addressed. Druids getting res has been proposed as a solution to the druid grouping issue, but it's a bit of a jump from that to stating that there is a "res issue." The cart has been put before the horse in this case.

*shrugs*

Autius
06-14-2003, 07:45 AM
That's exactly how I feel Scirocco; thank you for putting it better than I would have.

I will allow I am the most vocal on the rez issue. I am not isolated in out, however. I like to look at things from all angles and I see the moderators point; in fact; I put the same brainstorming definition slightly before you did. Granted, I didn't number it, but the core remained the same.

The idea is discarded.

I just don't know what is wanted. There have now been 2, maybe 3 different posts with the breakdown of ideas on it. The list has been done far more effectively elsewhere; the mods themselves did a very well listed one.

What, exactly, was your plan to do here Demasia? If brainstorming is the idea, why isn't the bigger, more official list acceptable? Especially since the mods have added everyone's ideas to the list?

This is the impression that I get. Absor has been showing up here, willing to listen to some of our ideas, looking around. I think this speaks well on the Druid's Grove in general; Mods should be proud that they are running a pretty damn good board.

But if Absor comes in, sees a bunch of threads with Rez in it, he may assume this is something we want. And don't ever underestimate the power of the Public Relations Guy. He may say he doesn't have a whole lot of power, but who was it that decided the game should be easier than it was 4 years ago, the designers or the public? Bingo. The public decided and relations said something had to be done.

I love the druid class(and the rogue, but that's another story) and I love this game. The Druid's Grove is one of the more professional boards out here, and that's why I come here.

I'm not going to worry about post deleting or nothing like that. It's not that severe of a problem to me. But it does endanger the integrity of the board if we remove the disagreements and keep only the ideas we agree with.

After all, if two of us think the same, one of us isn't needed.

FyyrLuStorm
06-14-2003, 07:57 AM
"if we remove the disagreements and keep only the ideas we agree with."

Truth be told, I agree with both you and Scirroco. I don't think that rez for Druids is even viable or wanted, let alone needed. I don't think that there needs to be ANY change to rezzes, or EE's, or any of that.

But that does not change my view that the brainstorming portion should be done in a vacuum. When it comes to the criticism phase, the discussion phase, I will bring out my cannons and rip them apart. But until then, I am going to let the poster and the moderator of this thread be indulgent. True, Stormhaven has her own WIP thread, Dem wanted to focus on one section of the discussion.

Autius, if you wish to actually discuss(or rip apart) the points here, by all means start your own thread. The same courtesy will be granted to you, to be indulgent if you so wish. Hell, title it "Why we should NOT get a rez!". It will be your own, and if you want debate in it, so be it.

WyteNK
06-14-2003, 09:32 AM
Maybe Dem should have named the thread "Issue with xp loss and corpse recovery", or something like that. I think the point Dem is making is that (and correct me if I'm wrong)...

People hunt to xp, and will get killed when hunting for xp. Currently, 3 classes give returned xp on death <strong>and</strong> CR at the same time.
- Cleric
- Paladin
- Necro (at a high cost)
This leaves <em>ANY</em> group without one of these classes completely dependent on outside influences, completely apart from the group. This <strong>may</strong> be an issue.

Strict corpse recovery in dangerous places is sometimes limited to Necro, ShadowKnight, and now Rogue. Same kind of idea, except mostly moot in the PoP era.

Who are we to say or decide when class interdependence turns into class requirement? I don't know, maybe we should have say maybe we shouldn't.

But what's wrong with coming up with ideas for it? It seems like people can't even get past picking apart this title and get to the real meat of the posts within. Lots of the ideas don't even involve Druids, let alone rez.

Wyte

Demasia
06-14-2003, 09:39 AM
For those who skipped the first post in the thread.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><strong>Not everyone agrees that there is a problem with Rezzes in the game. That dissention is duly noted and respected. However, there are many of us who do see Rezzes as problematic to the grouping dynamics in the game to varying degrees.</strong>[/quote]

You are entitled to your opinion. But so are we. Is it asking too much that you let us have some fun without the bickering that is on the thread where someone suggested a druid rez? This is a druid community forum and there are druids who see a problem with the rez and it's affect on grouping dynamics. What is wrong with allowing us to develop a solution that is well thought out by a collection of minds? Such a solution proposal threatens you in no way, especially if our arguement that there is a rez issue is as wrong as you say it is.

Read the first post. It recognizes your dissenting opinion. It does not say who is right or wrong because we are both right. For you and others, it is a fact that there is no rez issue. For me and others, it is a fact that the rez system is an issue and not just for druids. I disagree with many of the suggestions on the Absor thread addressing what would solve druid (and other classes) grouping desirability, but I respect their right to have opinions.

We can argue over whether or not there is a rez issue until we are both blue in the face. That time will come. But right now, in this thread, it would be helpful if people could constructively participate in this thread without being ostracized. Think of it as a politcal party's convention where the opposing party watches respectfully as the party refines it's platform, but doesn't break down the doors to tell them there is no reason for them to be convening much less discussing the "issues" that they are discussing.

And for the 123,567th time, this thread is not about arguing for or against a druid rez and it is an incorrect impression to discredit the ideas presented as being part of a conspiracy to get a rez for druids. There is a thread where that has been debated and it even has "90% druid rez" in it's title.

Demasia
06-14-2003, 09:44 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Maybe Dem should have named the thread "Issue with xp loss and corpse recovery", or something like that. I think the point Dem is making is that (and correct me if I'm wrong)...[/quote]

Hehe. Two minds are better than one. Thanks.

Autius
06-14-2003, 09:52 AM
No, two minds weren't better than one. One just worded things better.

What was your purpose, by the way?

Demasia
06-14-2003, 10:01 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>No, two minds weren't better than one. One just worded things better.

What was your purpose, by the way?--Autius[/quote]

I started the thread and his suggested title is more appropriate to the topic.

You mean for this thread? Or changing the title?

WyteNK
06-14-2003, 10:18 AM
<strong>Back to some more ideas</strong>

The game dynamic is such that you need one of 3 classes to be able have xp returned. I don't think that's inherintly bad.

Thinking about it... the bad thing IMO is that you have a 3 hour window to do it.

To me this <em>seems</em> flawed; many people tend to be paranoid about continuing on xp grinds with a rez timer (or multiple timers) ticking down. They may also have lost a level, or use of gear that they need to keep on the corpse.

<strong>The idea... finally</strong>
Simply increase the amount of rez time on a corpse level 60 or greater.

If it was 10 hours, would Druids <strong>possibly</strong> not be overlooked as much? I really don't know.

There's another idea for the <em>brainstorming</em> list.

Wyte

Tiane
06-14-2003, 12:54 PM
The 3 hour limit on res's really seems silly these days. I'm not sure what purpose it serves, least not in pop, where your corpse is gonna be gy'd in minutes anyway. It should be done away with completely or made a really long time, like 12-24 hours. The druid "Preservation" spell could also be brought back and used to extend the timer on any corpse to a really long time, not just reset the 3 hours.

Tia

Scirocco
06-14-2003, 04:13 PM
<strong>Thinking about it... the bad thing IMO is that you have a 3 hour window to do it.</strong>

It used to be shorter. I was personally involved in getting it raised, in fact. I posted here about my experiences in trying to find a res in such a short period of time in Tim Deep (where I was quadding raptors) because of the inaccessibility of the zone and difficulties in getting a cleric (or res type) out to my corpse in time. Absor or Abashi responded to my thread saying that it sounded good and they would pass it up the line, and shortly thereafter the time to get a res increased (albeit modestly).


Which leaves the current question: how long should we have to get a corpse ressed? The current limit? 5 hours? 6 hours? 12 hours? 24?

The res timer was shortened to prevent a particular tactic that was in vogue way back when, but I'm not sure it would be a problem anymore. Any opinions?

FyyrLuStorm
06-14-2003, 05:33 PM
If what you are saying is that the 3 hour window should be increased not by a spell or ability, but by game design; I agree with that.

I do not remember what the particular exploit was, but if it is removed or no longer existant; what possibly is the reason that the 3 hour limit is as it is?

Aside from making people stay up to 3 in the morning doing CRs, that is.

I mean you are already dead, and you have already have death effects on you, what is the reason it is so short?

WyteNK
06-14-2003, 05:43 PM
Probably because at one time you were rezzed with all mana, all health, no negative effects. Loot and buff and you're ready for action. Battle rezzes allowed much easier kinds of tactics back then.

[edit] <em>Actually, that doesn't seem to explain why it was so short. /shrug </em>

/salute Scirocco

I never knew you were involved in getting that changed. Hats off to ya!

Wyte

Demasia
06-15-2003, 05:10 PM
(found this on 90% rez thread)

I'm a guest here. I play a 61 Necromancer and a 63 Cleric. I play a host of other characters.

In the context that this thread focuses on adding grouping desirability to druids, I throw out slightly more radical alternative rez related options.

1. Remove experience loss on death entirely. With graveyards and PoP ZEM's its trivial anyway. They removed it from level six through nine characters so there is precedent. It now puts the classes on a level playing field with respect to rez. Throw clerics a bone and give them druid style regen lines of spell to replace their ressurection lines and a topor style heal effect to replace the effect on their epic.

2. Place 30-plat three-charge 90-percent rez sticks on vendors and let any class buy the damn things at will. Again, resurrection ceases to be a stumbling block in the way of druids getting groups.

3. Give druids a 90 minute reusable AA reincarnation ability that allows them to rez one person for 100 percent every 90 real minutes. In groups, raids with a cleric, they can use it to put the group/raid back in operation by rezzing the cleric. Means they won't lose experience for routine deaths when soloing and gives them an added edge in getting groups because in non-wipe situations, folks will enjoy the 100 percent rez.

4. Give groups that take in druids a 5 percent experience bonus. In any full group (not five or less) with a druid, your group will get five percent more experience. You will only get the five percent experience bonus when grouped and not when soloing.

Bacchylides
Puppy
Posts: 2
(6/15/03 2:49 pm)

GreystoneThorngage
06-15-2003, 07:15 PM
I dont think they should ever remove penelty for dying, you died, you messed up, there is a penelty. granted 4% xp isnt that big a deal. (assuming 96% rez). The GY feature is a great idea IMO, because it prevents nasty deaths from being 8 hour CR's.

Cleric REz sticks a novel idea, but why not give chanters KEI sticks, shammies focus sticks...and make everyone be able to cast the same buffs via a stick, make omni classes that can do everything. Clerics best healers, best rez'ers, necros and pallies can do it also, no need to add another. Its pointless. giving druids the ability to rez will do nothing to "fix" druids.

I personally dont see a lot wrong with druids. I find groups often, i am productive in a raid. Sure i think it sucks our ports where "trivialized" and half the game is becoming unsnareable, but its called adventure/challenge if everything was a cake walk why play? Every class has its up and downs, and you just have to focus on the ups and work around the downs. Druids aren't broke, we just have to work a little harder at things, but it comes with the territory

If you want better heals/rez'es make a cleric, half your druid gear should transfer over saving you time on gear.

Come up with new ideas, not take something another class can do and put a druid twist on it.

Demasia
06-16-2003, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If you want better heals/rez'es make a cleric, half your druid gear should transfer over saving you time on gear.

Come up with new ideas, not take something another class can do and put a druid twist on it.[/quote]

I've read your post twice and still do not see an idea or an attempt to refine the ideas already here.

GreystoneThorngage
06-16-2003, 10:07 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I've read your post twice and still do not see an idea or an attempt to refine the ideas already here[/quote]

1. Is this post strictly for people who think druids need a rez?

2. My post was to basically say its a waste of brain power to Brainstorm over rez/xp recovery for druids in a more tactful way. Druids don't need it, there have been some really good ideas made in other posts, but "The Rez Issue" has been ongoing thing for year or two, i think its almost as bad as constant "what if we tried this" posts for Kerafyrm.

So reread my post...if you want a rez, go make a cleric, focus our (the druid community) energy on something else.

VERY LOW SODIUM
06-16-2003, 11:57 PM
I still like <strong>Sanctuary</strong> (<em><strong>Stationary Succor</strong></em>)... saves group without taking them out of the action completely, vital to a group deep in a zone... LIKE Rez BUT NOT Rez. I wonder if maybe the druid spell lines are fine, but the extent to witch and ingenuity with which they get upgraded is lacking.

Demasia
06-17-2003, 12:18 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Was thinking about the DS situation. What about adding a reverse DS, every time mob swings it damages it self. Kind of a double thing. If they miss they take no damage with our DS, but because we covered them in thorny vines too, their movement cuts them.

Also, perhaps adding a DS with a dot factor. Poison barbs. The DS hit is lower, but the mob is poisoned and starts taking DoT damage.--Greystone Thorngage[/quote]

Greystone, it is my opinion that a change to our DS will have no affect on druid grouping desirability, but I don't follow behind every post about it saying "you are wasting your breath; there is nothing wrong with our thorns". The reason I don't is because you entitled your opinion and I do not presume to be your judge. Can you grant us the same courtesy?

FyyrLuStorm
06-17-2003, 12:44 AM
I was having a conversation with a cleric one time about soloing for clerics.

He said "What we need is a DS".

I was like, "I would give you a 300 hp DS(if I could), you would still die in PoP".

Please, please tell me that that buff slot is going to be used for something more usefull.

TeriMoon
06-17-2003, 01:30 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I wonder if maybe the druid spell lines are fine, but the extent to witch and ingenuity with which they get upgraded is lacking.[/quote]

Good point.

GreystoneThorngage
06-17-2003, 05:30 AM
actually Dem, you did go behind me and ask what my post had relevance, that is what started my previous post.

Demasia
06-17-2003, 10:32 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>actually Dem, you did go behind me and ask what my post had relevance, that is what started my previous post.[/quote]

I replied to your initial post on thread, which was not an idea or refinement of someone's idea. It was a rant about this thread.

Dwelian Soulbinder
06-18-2003, 07:52 AM
unless things have changed greatly since the time i was level 49-55, a 90 percent druid rez is not going to help you in a group situation, because you'll almost never use it. 19 times out of 20, the response to your question "want rez?" will be, "no, i'll wait for a real rez". (or more likely, you'll get a query about what percentage your rez is, then told it's not good enough.) it's the same flawed perception that perpetuates the myth that druids (and necromancers and wizards and...) don't bring much to a group.

note: the preceding in no way is intended to denigrate the idea of a druid rez. it's just an observation based on my actual experiences.


dwelian soulbinder
65 cleric in service to bristlebane
familjen
saryrn server

Kaledan
06-18-2003, 09:19 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
I do not remember what the particular exploit was, but if it is removed or no longer existant; what possibly is the reason that the 3 hour limit is as it is?
[/quote]

Leaving multiple corpses all over the landscape as a transportation mechanism.

Soru

Demasia
06-18-2003, 09:22 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>note: the preceding in no way is intended to denigrate the idea of a druid rez. it's just an observation based on my actual experiences.


dwelian soulbinder
65 cleric in service to bristleb[/quote]

Dwelian, how do you feel about the other suggestions?

Tiane
06-18-2003, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Leaving multiple corpses all over the landscape as a transportation mechanism.[/quote]

Ah yes. Well that seems like a much smaller worry now with PoK books and such.

Certainly, in the case of PoP zones with Graveyards the case could and should be made that the Rez Timer is obsolete and serves no useful purpose.

Tia

FyyrLuStorm
06-18-2003, 03:01 PM
"Certainly, in the case of PoP zones with Graveyards the case could and should be made that the Rez Timer is obsolete and serves no useful purpose."

EXACTLY.

So discussion about an ingame ability or spell to increase or remove it is silly at this point. It should be removed from the game.