View Full Forums : Ideas on the "new" druid - read the rules first


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Stormhaven
06-05-2003, 12:35 PM
Ok guys, this is what many of you have been waiting for - a chance to really speak out about the druid class and get your ideas heard (more so).

Absor has challenged us (http://pub149.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovegeneral.showMessage?topicID=31207.t opic):
Many of you seem to think that a druid is a good addition to a PoP group. But you're saying that people don't want you in groups.

What is the reason that they don't want you?

What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?
[In-line Edit: To address this part of Absor's post, please post in this thread (http://pub149.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovegeneral.showMessage?topicID=31217.t opic) instead. Thanks.]

Answer those with the understanding that there doesn't appear to be any real need for any huge changes to any classes. I'm not asking you to tell me that you need to be able to nuke like a wizard and heal like a cleric, nor am I expecting you to introduce me to a new form of ability never seen before. Let's keep this to a realistic level, within the realm of the possible.

Lets get the ideas flowing folks
...but you gotta play by the rules!

- No flaming in this thread, this will be <font color="red">heavily moderated.</font>
- No personal attacks, if you don't think an idea will work, state why you think so, and back it up with facts, not assumptions.
- No "God mode" posts - we aren't going to be a deity level class, this is a serious discussion for serious ideas.
- Looking for new ideas, not people leeching from other classes. Don't say "we-need-something-like-class_01's-ability-but-better". Come up with something original that tries to be viable for both groups and raiding.

Disclaimer - Understand that these are ideas only. By posting the above challenge by no means locks SOE into a position where they have to implement any of the changes we suggest. While it would be nice for any good idea to be implemented instantaniously, that's just not possible - and unfortunately a lot of good ideas are going to be tabled due to the amount of manhours it will require.

After you've read the rules and you feel you've got something to contribute, post below!

Edit: I guess I wasn't clear enough on the rules. This is to be a short listing - tell us your new ideas (there's that word again) and see how the others feel about the subject. This is not the place for class vs class debates. We've got 1001 threads about that already. Comments along that thread will be deleted and moved to the grouping discussion thread (http://pub149.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovegeneral.showMessage?topicID=31217.t opic).

Edit #2: Apparently still not clear enough. This is a discussion place for the ideas only. Druid vs (any class) discussions will hence forth be deleted - you have been warned. DO NOT reply to class-bashers, those will be deleted too, just ignore them or address them in the other thread. Also, the WIP thread (that's work in progress for those who asked) is being updated as I get time - I am not omitting or removing items - so stop sending me PMs asking me to "remove idea_x," anything that gets suggested here is going up (assuming I understand it - if not, expect to see a post from me asking you to explain it). I went into a frenzy of post deletions just now so if you feel your post got deleted incorrectly, I apologize. Yes, my PMs are turned on, so feel free to message me to yell at me, correct me, blah blah blah.

To our cleric, enchanter, wizard, etc guests - Feel free to join in the conversations, but only if you have thoughts on the ideas posted. If you can only say "druids shouldn't get this cause it's ours," don't bother posting. Give us reason or an alternative. To our cross-class brethren, we understand that druids have been forever pegged as the lone soloer, but we are trying to think of reasons that you would want us in groups. We may have a myopic view of what would be useful, ideas from the outside would be appreciated as long as they are suggested in a tone of respect. Show us respect and I will make sure the same gets extended to you.

Accretion
06-05-2003, 12:46 PM
<em>same comments posted on original thread as well</em>

1) <strong>Nukes </strong>-- I believe our perception as viable nukers has taken a huge hit due to the fact that our crits are so far below Mage crits (and until 64, roughly equal to 65 Enchanter crits, FWIW). I know that skilled players understand that efficiency is most important, but at level 61 Mages do 2000 base damage while Druids do 1150. We both get comparable upgrades at 64 & 65, but the fact is that groups see the numbers and assume Druids are now 2nd rate nukers. Toss in the Mage pet and it really looks bad. <strong><em>I propose a bolt-like, high-output nuke in line with our Summer's Flame/Moonfire efficiency that would help with our perception as nukers</em></strong>

2) <strong>Debuffs </strong> -- A Shaman is nearly always sought after in group settings because of one thing.....Slow. Sure, Shamans are very valuable for other things (DoTs, Malo, Buffs, etc.) but slow is the THE number one factor for getting a PoP group together. <strong><em>I suggest an upgrade to the Druid debuff line in the form of a Class AA or 63-65 spell that would actually help us compete for that backup role.</em></strong> I haven't done any parsing lately so I can't provide you with numbers, but a single target, non-stackable debuff that would mitigate 30-40% damage (roughly 1/2 of Shaman slow) would do wonders for our group viability. Maybe it wouldn't even stack with any slow over 40%. Anyway, the point is it would benefit LOTS of players to have another class with the ability to make PoP encounters doable without a Shaman or Enchanter slow.

I'm sure I'll think of some more =P

*edited to add bold

Primero Aventurero
63 Druid

TeriMoon
06-05-2003, 01:06 PM
1. Let Tunare's renewal and Karana's Renewal work with Healing Gift

2. Create a new PoP AA ability for druids like this:

A nuke specific ability that would act as spell casting subtlety does for pure casters. I don't care if it costs 20aa and I have to buy it for each and every different nuke I have. But really, when I don't have to play the main healer, I'd like to actually be able to USE my mana to help burn things down. As it is, I frequently have to debuff in order to get my nukes to land reliably and the agro is such that I will do more harm to my group than help by overnuking.

There is so much potential for abuse, I realize. Which is why I suggest it be specific to each nuke spell. Sort of like and AA focus ability.

3. Let Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal work with healing gift.
4. Let Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal work with healing gift.
5. Let Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal work with healing gift.

and so on

Tudamorf
06-05-2003, 01:07 PM
I have a feeling this is soon going to turn into some longwinded class balance post that goes absolutely nowhere, and degrades into mindless trolling.

But before it does: <img src=http://lag9.com/biggrin.gif>

The problem is that druids don't have an essential ability anymore, so they're last choice for the group. Those essential abilities used to be snare, damage shields, and succor, all three of which have been rendered irrelevant for grouping.

Instead of trying to balance all sorts of new abilities or asking for nerfs on other classes, why not just bring back what was important about the druid class?

Succor
Problem: Graveyards have killed the need for Succor (as well as Summon Corpse).
Solution: If the expansion has graveyards, they should be activated and have a "no res" penalty for the service.

Damage shields
Problem: NPC hit amount hyperinflation has killed the utility of damage shields while massively increasing the utility of slow. We used to be able to "return" 30% of the attacker's damage; now we're lucky to return 5%.
Solution: The expansion should have NPCs that hit for much less damage (per hit), but at a lower attack delay or perhaps with more attacks.

Snare
Problem: Large open areas, non-retreating NPCs, and the "I won't flee if a friend is nearby" code have killed the utility.
Solution: Bring back dangerous dungeons! Make NPC flight a serious consequence. And make the dungeons so good that no one will ever want to go to the PoP zones of tedium.

The rest of the Druid is great: powerful healing, good damage spells, and a host of utility spells. Tinkering with those won't get us anywhere; we need to be essential once again.

BriennaMonk
06-05-2003, 01:10 PM
I would like to see us have more control over animals. We can sense, charm, fear and tash them. Why can't we slow them? An animal-only slow would be nice and there are few enough high level zones with animals that it wouldn't be overpowering. It might give druids a chance to get a group if a shaman wasn't around though. Even if it's only 30-40% slow, that'd be a big boost for druids' desirability in some zones.

Or, how about special buffs that protect players from animals. Like an AC buff that gives some amount of AC normally, but if you are attacked by an animal mob, it functions as if your AC was 100 points higher than what the buff normally provides? Kinda far out, but again it gives druids a use in the zones with animals and isn't that overpowering.

Eridalafar
06-05-2003, 01:15 PM
Don't forget our harmony spells.

It was the best of the lull spell type. Now it is the worse. At the point That I don't use it. I let a paladin do the pull with his lull spell.

Our big avantage was the AoE but it was limited by having a greather aggro range (15 for us, 0 for other) and was out-door only.

Eridalafar

Stormfront
06-05-2003, 01:20 PM
Wha? I dig Harmony of Nature. Sure, it's not AoE, but still a very effective spell. I wouldn't mind it working indoors as well, but it's functionality is fine, IMHO.

ThornyEQ
06-05-2003, 01:21 PM
Without introducing anything new, the biggest problem I see in PoP (I'm only in tier 2 planes at the moment, so this may be alleviated later on in the mid 60's) when playing my druid is that my nukes (fire/magic/cold...doesn't seem to make much of a difference) and Ro's debuff line are resisted so much. And I'm not talking about yellow or red mobs here, just plain blue-con "yard trash." Seeing bigger numbers (a la crits) helps perception, but actually getting bigger hits (i.e. less resists) would help the bottomline as well, IMHO. Could we hope for something closer to the resist level that winged death enjoys?

Heals...we have quietly become the second-best priest class in terms of heals. Shammies heal well, but they do not heal at the level druids do. Still, some of those nice heals don't happen until much later in a druid's life, when they're less useful overall. Also, some of the interesting heals are hobbled by odd limitations. For example, the 90-second recast time on Nature's Recovery...not too group friendly when you can only do one group mate every 90 seconds. How about a nice fast heal somewhere between Chloroblast and Nature's Infusion? Nature's Touch is in between those two, but it's not that fast. How about something like 750 healing for 400 mana? It's a bunch less efficient than Nature's Touch, but it's fast and can give the druid another little job: that of keeping peeps alive in between bigger heals.

Lastly, this is in the "wish" department, but I'm not the first one to have brought this up; it's been debated in the past. How about a druid-only group TP to druid's bind spot? Wizards have translocates to group member's bind points; this would be the reverse of that. Yes, it makes travelling to a raid point much easier. For example, a raid to ToV would be deposited directly at the doorstep of ToV by a druid, so that would be a lot easier. But, since people can't bind in many of the world's dungeons, it would not be overpowering. CoH is still better for getting people deep into dungeons quickly.

Tiane
06-05-2003, 01:34 PM
Something needs to be done to make damage shields a viable alternative to slow (as they used to be), like Tuda's suggestion.

That, or make ATK debuffs *actually* do something besides generate aggro on the caster. I mean like a noticeable decrease in damage dealt by the mob. Make it non-stackable with slow, thats fine, but as it is this spell line is useless.

Tia

Stewwy
06-05-2003, 01:42 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?[/quote]

Subsitute for slow. A damage mitigator spell. I proposed this on a different thread.

This spell would <strong>NOT</strong> stack with slow, but would do something different, it would reduce the amount of damage a mob can put out. This could be an entire line of spells which reduce mob damage.

level - mitigation
19 - 10%
29 - 20%
39 - 30%
49 - 40%
54 - 50%
61 - 60%

This spell would be magic based.

What would this do? This would still allow the mob to proc just as often or riposte just as often or stun the melee just as often, so a 50% damage mitigation would not be as effective as a 50% slow. It does not stack with slow, so expliotation is not really an issue. It would allow the druid to substitute for a slower.......PoP groups DO NOT happen without a slower and believe it or not there is a need for this kind of utility because there are a shortage of slowers. Druids can heal yes but the lack of a rez still makes groups seek clerics first even when a druid is available. And frankly I do not blame them....if someone dies your sunk.

Slow would still be far better than this damage mitigation line of spells, but it would allow for a viable slow substitute without seriously infringing upon the shaman and allow the druid to patch into one of the primary group roles without the need to give druids rez, which we all know will never happen.

If you gave druids every heal a cleric has, groups will still want a cleric because of Ress. We need a new idea and something different. I think this is a viable option.

EDIT: Correcting typos.

Bladari
06-05-2003, 01:42 PM
I think our dmg is fine how it stands, but if we were to get some sort of DS buff, lasts for some short duration (1 min maybe?), stacks with other ds spells, and does like 100dmg per hit. Maybe slap a 2 min recast time on it or something. Just an Idea.

TeriMoon
06-05-2003, 01:59 PM
That's called Wrath of the wild.

The thing is there could be some sort of scaling DS like we talked about before. But this STILL isn't going to give us a defining role in a group. Its just not going to happen based on the abilities we have.

Seriena
06-05-2003, 02:00 PM
I would just like to quote this:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>3. Let Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal work with healing gift.
4. Let Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal work with healing gift.
5. Let Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal work with healing gift.[/quote]

And would add

6. Let Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal work with healing gift
7. Let Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal work with healing gift
8. Let Tunare's Renewal and Karana's Renewal work with healing gift

and last but not least

9. Reduce the reuse time on SotW to something more reasonable. 10-12 mins would be acceptable so that it's more in line with the cleric AA Dinvine Arbitration, which is only 3 minutes. SotW is THE defining AA for druids in PoP. We love it. It was an awesome idea. Thank you to whoever came up with the skill. The current reuse time of 22 minutes, however, is way to long. The skill is hardly over powering and it doesn't encroach on anyone elses terriroty.

Other than that, I'm happy with the skills druids have. I bring a lot to a group and never have a hard time finding one. Those 2 improvements would go a long way though.

Centain
06-05-2003, 02:21 PM
Love Stewwy's idea there...

Lowering the mobs possible dmg by a percentage would enable us to end up lowering a mobs dps and provide us with a real use for our damage shield.

I dont know what percentage mitigation we should go for but -- it should not act in any way more than 75% of a shamans max. Our max mitigation going to about 55% would work. It would allow us to slow down a mobs damage while also giving our damage shield some sort of play. An increase to our damage shield coupled with this would do exceptionally nicely.

Eridalafar
06-05-2003, 02:29 PM
The group port to the druid bind point is not a so good idea because the ease to get abused.

Druid 1 bind near of NPC A in a hard to get zone, NPC ask for the item XYZ from NPC B. NPC A gice good xp and good faction hit.

Druid 2 bind near of NPC B.......


Eridalafar

Ainianu
06-05-2003, 02:52 PM
My personal view on that damage mitigation thing is a real no no. At least on face value of your suggestion

if thats to be our improvement, then it needs to A: stack with slow (can you imagine the arguments shamans will give that we can 'possibly' replace their class defining ability on raids?)
and B : if it is stacking it needs to be very slight effect, or it will trivialise encounters.

MY suggestion would be a better ATTK debuff, the one we have makes no noticable difference on any mob (someone parsed it as reducing a mobs dps by 2 %?)
that STACKS with slow, and really helps an encounter, yet slight enough not to notice as much as slow does, and not trivialising an encounter.

AND/OR a much more improved Damage Shield which is % based on what the mob is hitting you for (say 10 % Damage returned, mob hits for 850, he takes 85, hits for 2050, he takes 205 damage), im thinking this is what Wrath of the Wild should have been, a stackable Dshield with a not too long duration.

Our Healing is fine
Our Nuking i couldnt give a damn about (i dont nuke)
And as a whole im happy about the druid class, but if we are to be improved for GROUPING, then the changes above would help our viability in groups aswell as making us not vital - yet very usefull to have on raids

Oldoaktree
06-05-2003, 02:55 PM
I guess I could take a stab at it. Just a few random ideas that won't change tons but may matter...

1) A very short duration (20sec or less) spell that dramatically decreases a mob's ability to hit. This would be a good companion spell for the person trying (and esp failing) to land a slow.

2) A buff spell that increases the frequency of nuke crits. Doesn't need to be tremendous, and would need to be reasonable short duration (not something you buy from a buff ho and have for 3h...more like a 10 or 20min duration).

3) A buff spell that increases the frequency of melee critical hits (same as above on restrictions).

4) A buff spell that directly adds 5 or 10dmg to every melee hit. Kind of like putting those DS vines directly on the melee'ers weapons.

5) A buff spell that directly adds say 100dmg to nuke spells (or perhaps one that scales with the size of the nuke, though this is getting close to an existing ability).

6) THE CONTROVERSIAL ONE hehe. A short duration (say 20 sec?) lure based 50% slow which has a long reset. Again, this would be a tool to assist a primary slower by giving them a little more time to land the "real" slow.

I will keep mulling it over to toss more ideas out. I am not really sure how to deal with the original request. It asks to explain the problem, asks for new ideas, but also sort of says to not suggest things that increase our power. I can't see how to achieve that.

EDIT: Oops, NM...I see it was just moved...

Ainianu
06-05-2003, 02:56 PM
one other suggestion.
SHM / CLR both have a kind of melee improvement (Rabid bear / Summoned proc hammers / bash )
something interesting for druid meleeing would be fun.
Maybe an upgrade to our lowbie Firefists spell, something that adds a lot of attack at higher levels, and self only, and perhaps gives haste also. something Comparable to Yaulp :p

Centain
06-05-2003, 03:05 PM
Ain:

That might be fun, but I really dont see that as being something that will get us a group. Truth be told, if I ever saw a druid meleeing instead of sitting on his butt I would be EVICTING him from a group. Not apply if Dark mace of thought/etc/etc.

Ainianu
06-05-2003, 03:10 PM
my other post before the melee one had my real thoughts for getting groups
melee thing was just something for fun mostly
and i do have dark mace of thought (and primal to proc avatar with) but untill druids get that level of gear, they are pretty much worthless at melee'ing, wheras a cleric / sham have gotten better and better :p

Alyn Cross
06-05-2003, 03:32 PM
tinker with the ro's lines.

i can't say 'what', i thought the mitigation idea has much merit; and i see that as a very viable solution. there's a few types of mobs out there, those that hit hard infrequently, and those that hit fast for less amounts.... well then there's the ones that quad for 1000+, but they're another story.

the ds is, i'm afraid, uncurable. mobs hit for 700/swing now. druid ds *on another* is only 40pts. am i doing math wrong, or is that only 5.7%?

melee is interesting. much could be done with that.

alyn cross
forces unknown

Feebbil
06-05-2003, 03:34 PM
When i got invited into a pick up group it was 9 times out of 10, to be a healer, if the group has previously trying to get a cleric with no luck.

The only thing that could chance this would be to give us and ability to ress. Which i dont think they should ever, although its the core of the problem.

No matter how many litle funny abilityes they give us for this and that, we will never be that class the group simply cant live without. There will be other clasess that can do the job better, if the group wants max exp, with litle risk. And this is just the way it should be, since we have other powers which, those clasess that are strongs in groups dont have.

One thing the could do was, as already mentioned by other people here. Make our ATK debuf line much more powerfull than it is now.

Solution make ATK debuf have almost same effect for lowering mobs DPS, as slow has now. This should not stack with any form of slow spells.

But at the end of the day this would just add one more overpowered ability into the game, which im not sure i really want, like Complete heal spells, slows, mezzes already are now.

However if the question was, what could they do to make us a litle more balanced, than we already are.

Here are some things i would like to see :)

AA skill: Healing gift. this need to work with our CH type spells.

AA skill: Wrath of the wild. In its curent form its like completely useless, Scracth it and make it some kind of DA/DB ability with maybe short duration/long reuse time, but would be nice, and is very needed we get this.

AA skill: Spirit of the wood. The re use time is way to long. should be like reuse time 5, or 6 minutes max.

Spells: karana's reneveal, the mana cost is to high, 600 mana its simply to much for this spell, its hardly any better than our lvl 58 CH spell.

Spells: Eci's frosty breath. This need to be set to hand of ro style chance to land, as it is now its really not worth casting outside of a raid, and even in raids its way to hard to land. Many times u will be death from agro, before u got it to stick, since it has so high chance for resist.

Harmony: We should get a harmony type spell for indor use, around lvl 60 or 61. We used to have this one force we had the best harmony type spell. Now several other clasess have sudenly become better with this, and on top of that can use it indoors too, sorry i dont see the logic here.

Ohh and about the whole exp chance system, well im not sure if it will be god or bad, and onestly i dont care much about it anymore since im mostly done exping.

Facts are however its a nerf for any class that used to get their exp soloing.

No we will still not be invited into random pick up exp group nr 001, as long as there are other clasess lfg who can do the job better. I can live with that tho.

Just i dont really understand the whole isue, as it is now its really not that hard to make equal or better exp in a group than it is solo.

Group in earth, or fire can easely make 1 or 2 AA pr hour depending on the group setup.

Group in pre elemental zones can also easely make 1 or 2 AA pr 2 hours, which is similar to what the average druid would be able to solo IMO.

At the end of the day u will still see the clasess that solo now, be soloing most of their time, unless the group really cant find that class that does the job better. Only diference is those solo clasess will now get less exp than they did previously.

random user
06-05-2003, 04:03 PM
So then, what can be done? Here are my thoughts:

1. Eye candy. People love to see high crits. But one problem is that while it would be nice to do more damage on a crit, SOE doesn't want to greatly alter our sustained DPS.

Here's one potential solution:

Nature's Focus AA: For each nuke cast, there is a small chance (the exact number can be tweaked, and perhaps even changed for levels of the AA) the nuke will be "forked" (MtG term): another copy of the spell will also be cast, using the appropriate additional mana, but *without* any additional agro. This damage shows up as "crit" damage and stacks with any other crits that may occur.

This means if I cast winter's frost and this AA goes off, I actually cast two winter's frosts, the damage is added together, and the damage is shown as a crit (ie 3100 damage + focus). If I crit (using the SCF/FOM AA) a frost and this AA goes off, then all the damage gets rolled into one (ie 4650 damage + focus). However, the mana cost of the spell is then doubled as well (thus meaning we don't gain any long term dps). The upside is the additional damage should accrue us no additional agro.

The big potential problem I can see with this is if we get the killing blow on a mob -- in which case we've just wasted an extra cast of an entire nuke. There are a couple of answers to this. The cleanest would be some way for the mana to be refunded on a killing blow. However, I'm not sure how easy this would be to implement. Another potential answer is for us to be able to toggle this ability on or off so that we can decide before we cast whether we want to use this ability. Lastly, and least good, we can just decide not to nuke if we think we may get the killing blow.

Another possibility:
Give us another very short duration, fairly low agro, long recast (about 1 min) dot which doesn't stack with swarming death. It doesn't even need to be super efficient. What this would allow us to do is increase our short term DPS (as opposed to our overall DPS which remains the same because of mana issues). Ideally this number should be high enough that people will take notice (assuming they don't filter dots) something like 3 ticks for 725 damage each for 500 mana or something similar. (Numbers made up.. something that is less efficient than swarming death, maybe near the efficiency (but less because it's guarenteed and hard to resist) of winter's storm, or near winter's frost after taking into account focus and crits).

Or:
Give us a fairly efficient, low agro nuke, with a long (~90 sec) recast time. One of the limiting factors for all caster DPS is that mobs often die fairly quickly, and a caster can only get in one or two nukes before it dies (I expect this will be even more prevelent once the old world zones become viable for xp again.) This spell would allow us get an extra nuke in early, without worrying about how much agro it generates. I can't think of a way to give it eye candy without being cheesy (ie 100% crit rate), but it fits with the others in terms of similarity.

These ideas all revolve around the idea of giving druids to provide their DPS without garnering significant agro. While this does increase the short-term DPS that a druid can do (because they don't have to worry about agro so much), the long term DPS should not be altered significantly.

I think if it were known that we could provide our damage dependantly with less risk of agro, that might be a reason people would choose a druid.

I have some more ideas, but this post is getting long enough as it is. I'll add my other ideas in another post (also when I have more time).


- Xylem, E'ci

Rheims
06-05-2003, 04:27 PM
We have a hard time because people get scared at the thought of a druid healer as main healer if they don't already know and trust the druid. And because when we are not main healer, when there is a cleric in the group, the cleric has a better version of our old harmony spell.

Also among the 3 priest classes, our buffs are generally the least desired, and most overwritten. Then there's that we die the fastest of all the priest classes which doesn't create confidence in our abilities.

Ideas to consider to help the druid class:
(Note this is a list to present possiblities and stir debate, not any thing I would ever expect enacted as a package)

1) Give druids their area effect harmony back, an indoors version (possibly buyable with aa points) would increase our utility as well.

2) A pulse heal would help druids control agro some. Even if it's only like a level 30 cleric's version of their celestial spells.

3) Protection/Blessing of the Nine really doesn't cut it as a hitpoint buff at high levels. 612 hps is nothing compared to virtue. While I do think that Cleric hp buff should be much better than the druid one, this gap is a bit extreme. 95% of the raids I go on, nobody wants my best hp buff, yet they do want the best shaman and cleric hp buffs.

4) A group version of mask of the hunter that has an atk buff in it and/or other benefits. The additional mana regen perhaps would be over powered, but it's an idea to tinker with.

5) A small damage absorbing rune component to our thorncoat self ac buff line might help us absorb damage from healing.

6) We really just don't have much in the way of useful buffs pre-60. When I'm playing a non druid alt in PoP I would rather have beastlord buffs than druid buffs, and BL's are just a hybrid and druids are supposedly a priest class. It's kind of a pathetic situation.

I've made pains to make the suggestions modest and not infringe too much on other classes' roles.

Tulas 65 Druid, Brell Serilis

Ainianu
06-05-2003, 04:32 PM
Another idea would be to change Natures Recovery (ie-make it actually a usefull spell)
get rid of the recast time for a start, and make it heal a lot more
its what 400 mana for 900 hp over 1 min? thats one swing from a PoP mob
Heal over times are generally more efficient than normal heal spells - This one isnt. Compare this to Tunares Renewal or Tunares Infusion.
A more usefull spell would be 400 mana for 2000 hp over 1 min.
would make it more efficient than our fast heal, yet not as efficient as our Cheal line. And not fast enough to compete with Torpor / Elixir from sham / clr

Only been skim-reading other posts, so apology if something along these lines has been said

Ainianu
06-05-2003, 04:36 PM
Rheims :
Quoting
"3) Protection/Blessing of the Nine really doesn't cut it as a hitpoint buff at high levels. 612 hps is nothing compared to virtue. While I do think that Cleric hp buff should be much better than the druid one, this gap is a bit extreme. 95% of the raids I go on, nobody wants my best hp buff, yet they do want the best shaman and cleric hp buffs.
"

Bot9 should not be compared to Virtue at all, Virtue is an all in one spell (hp / ac / symbol) Bot9 is not.
also on our raids we MGB bot9 + Symbol because it is more hp than Virtue.

Ellzii
06-05-2003, 05:07 PM
I did not see this thread when I made the other one.

I think the 90% rez is still a viable solution.

People will want a 96% rez over a 90% rez any day of the week to complement that Cleric still keep the best heals and HP buffs in the game. This will not replace clerics, but it will tone down the whole we will wait here and do nothing for 30 min while we wait for a cleric that I keep seeing.

I think it has raid viability as well. how many times has a Paladin or a Necro saved the raid (or even a Monk with Staff of the Forbidden Rites). It does not change raid dynamic in any way that would require mudflation on the mobs as some of the other solutions presented might.

I also concurr with the previous poster that Eci's needs to have the resist adjustment put in line with Hand of Ro. Some of us actually still use it for groups and raiding debuffs of any sort our essential to maximizing dps.

Demasia
06-05-2003, 05:08 PM
Because the clerics possess a multitude of advantages to groups as a healer, any solution will require more than one "bone" handed out to an alternative healer class.

1. Give druids a hit point buff line that is competitive to Aego/Virtue. PotG/9 line is great so long as you have cleric or pally to symbol, but not acceptible to cleric/pally free groups.
2. 90% or even 96% rez for druids and shaman at level 61 or 62. There are 3 priest classes and only one of them, necros and a hybrid melee can rez at present.
3. Change the Incomplete Heals for druids and shaman to fixed heals the max heal they can presently do and effected by focus and AA benefits.
4. Give druids Blessing of the Animals, which would be an outdoor only Torpor minus the snare effect. The Torpor line seems to enable shaman to deal effectively with the damage output mobs.
5. Remove the aggro component of the recent charm nerf. It inhibits a legitimate group makeup of pet classes when a healer and MA cannot be found.
6. Stop making mobs immune to abilties of specific classes such as snare, root and stun. There must be other ways to make the encounters challenging without reducing the need for certain classes.

This solution would still leave the cleric as the best healer, the best rezzer, the best buffer, better than druids at taking damage and best equipped of the priest classes. Yet, there would no longer be any reason to leave a druid LFG in the zone for 10 hours while lower level clerics are scooped into groups as soon as they leave a raid, tire of vendoring buffs or log on. Additionally, it will enable the creation of more groups to fill with the many other classes that tell stories of being LFG for lengthy periods of time.

Offsetting the reduction in druid balance by improving our raiding ability would only be beneficial to a segment of the druids in the game and would do nothing to increase the number of operational groups for the other classes who might otherwise be LFG.

Quelm
06-05-2003, 05:17 PM
1) Hastened Spirit of the Wood : 2, 4, 6 AA points. This ability reduces the recast timer on Spirit of the Wood by 10, 25, 50%. PLEASE! =)

2) Ro's Illumination v2 : Change this debuff to also add damage to all incoming melee strikes. The "outline of cold flame" would highlight weak spots, allowing characters to strike harder. 5-15 extra damage on each hit would boost the damage output of a group, regardless of mob damage / hit.

3) Stability of {Wood, Rock, Stone ...} : Increases Damage Mitigation abilities/skills
Reflexes of {Cat, Snake, Dragonfly, Wind? } : Increases Damage Avoidance abilities/skills
The implementation is left to the designers, but basically these buffs would make characters better at mitigating or avoiding damage by providing a bonus to defense, dodge, parry, or something else along the lines of the melee AA abilities.

4) TR/KR crits : If nothing else, they'd show folks in xp groups that druids *are* capable of healing for quite a bit, ie ~11k on a maxed out KR crit.

5) Give E'ci's Frosty Breath a lower resist check. In its current form, it isn't worth trying in an xp group without a shaman, mage or bard present for a bit of help. Malo, Tash, Occlusion, and Hand of Ro are all good examples of debuffs that get used in xp groups, but E'ci's isn't worth the risk of a resist (or two) simply for a bit of reduced CR.

6) Enhanced/Viscid Roots. There's definitely room for improvement here, but I'm not sure which direction to suggest. Lower resist checks on all roots, or further adjustments to the reliability of roots vs. nukes and procs would be nice, and useful in groups.

7) Spell Casting Subtlety, please!

1 would make grouping with druids a bit safer, and more fun. There would be less chance of a wipeout, and a bit more time to succor/exodus with more frequent availability of the group HoT. 2 provides benefits for your standard melee-centric xp group by increasing bonus damage. With a mana cost low enough for the spell to be used each pull, it would slightly speed up kills. 3 is again aimed at increasing safety for folks grouped with druids, as that's often the primary concern when going somewhere without a rezzer. Ideally, it would allow groups to take on tougher mobs. Increasing DM/DA adds an element that fits with traditional druid-style healing : regens and medium-sized heals, along with other buffs aimed at speeding up the fights. Druids can't add as many hitpoints, or heal as efficiently and quickly as clerics, but we use an assortment of techniques to reduce the need for heals.

Exceptional heals could help change perceptions, as mentioned above. This is one of the largest barriers to finding groups, IMO. Another problem is class synergy. Everyone loves KEI, haste, rez and slow, but things like DSes, Regens and FR debuffs just don't have as much appeal. Pot9 is great, but there are a few stacking conflicts, and virtue is still more convienient than having to worry about symbols on everyone.

Tweaking mana costs, aggro, resist rates and refresh times on a few spells and abilities, notably Ro's Illumination, E'ci's Frosty Breath, SotW and Roots (enhanced or otherwise) could go a long way towards making druids more viable in groups. Basically, if Hand/Illumination or E'ci's could land early without making druidpaste or blowing the entire aggro budget for an xp mob fight, you might see more druids making a difference in groups. I think the class is great fun to play, but still underappreciated by many.

Oldoaktree
06-05-2003, 06:04 PM
Nother thought...

Not trying to dispute and discuss but was re-reading Tuda's post.

Quote:

Damage shields
Problem: NPC hit amount hyperinflation has killed the utility of damage shields while massively increasing the utility of slow. We used to be able to "return" 30% of the attacker's damage; now we're lucky to return 5%.
Solution: The expansion should have NPCs that hit for much less damage (per hit), but at a lower attack delay or perhaps with more attacks.


My thoughts:

It seems to me a more obvious solution might be simply to make DS's work not as a fixed dmg amount but as a % of the melee hit taken.

The balancing act would be tricky but lets say for the sake of argument that the goal is to make DS's return 20% of the dmg done.

Rather than hasting the mob AND adjusting it's dmg, why not just shave 20% off of each hit and return it to the mob? The result is the same, it changes nothing about the effect of slow (and I am not sure how you would be able to stack your effect with slow).

I admit balancing would be tricky (ie how to deal with the impact on high dmg output mobs). But perhaps some mobs would be able to partially mitigate the effect, or be immune to it altogether (if the high melee dmg output is integral to the raid design).

brum15
06-05-2003, 06:53 PM
First off I am assuming you are proposing all of these in case SOE continues with the assinine trend of nerfing soloing. If not no changes are needed.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1. Give druids a hit point buff line that is competitive to Aego/Virtue. PotG/9 line is great so long as you have cleric or pally to symbol, but not acceptible to cleric/pally free groups[/quote].

and give clerics a mana regen buff line that is competitive to BOT9 and take away all component costs on cleric buffs or add them to druds. Also add a line of buffs to clerics similar to Circle of summer, winter, protection of the seasons,strength buff, attack buffs, sow and lev

Not having your own mana regen is great if there is a chanter or druid in group, but not acceptible to chanter/druid free groups. and in fact druid regen stacks with chanter making it even better

Sorry I already see a balance in buffing. We buff different things but we both have strengths and weaknesses here. Presently after casting group buff on the group, I click off my own buffs and ask the druid for their buffs. The 8 clicks of mana are more important to me than 800 hps since I dont plan on getting hit that often. And my resist buffs bite. Just as you would like the extra hps and ac on your buffs, I would love the mana regen capability, resist buffs, strength, attack, lev and slow buffs for my groups. I dont know if it is worth blending the classes for though.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>2. 90% or even 96% rez for druids and shaman at level 61 or 62. There are 3 priest classes and only one of them, necros and a hybrid melee can rez at present[/quote].

and give clerics egress and self only ports and the group equivalent of druids evac and succor spells. The loss of general group ports about evens out for the 5 minutes difference in POP exp between 90% and 96%.

sorry 90% is too close when you also bring a possibility of avoiding the death all together and a faster way of getting back if a TPW occurs. I would definitly trade the 6% or 5 minutes of exping for a chance to avoid death(with the loss of KEI and all other buffs) and faster transport back. Maybe a self only 90% with a considerably lower rez for others


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>3. Change the Incomplete Heals for druids and shaman to fixed heals the max heal they can presently do and effected by focus and AA benefits[/quote].

agree on the AA and focus part. Why focus and AA dont already work here I dont know. It is not like someone is going to choose a druid because "wow they might get a healing crit and heal for more". Healers plan their heals on mana efficiency already. They dont say "lets let the 7K hp tank get down to 10% health in case my 4K heal crits" most of that crit healing will be wasted. Some may come into effect to top off your tank though and the saves on mana would make you more efficient. This needs fixed like yesterday.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>4. Give druids Blessing of the Animals, which would be an outdoor only Torpor minus the snare effect. The Torpor line seems to enable shaman to deal effectively with the damage output mobs.[/quote]

basically a 300 hp a tic heal for 24 secs? We have one-shammy's have one-why not? although shammy's would probably want the snare effect removed off of their also then.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>5. Remove the aggro component of the recent charm nerf. It inhibits a legitimate group makeup of pet classes when a healer and MA cannot be found[/quote].

agree. you are a pet class. People should be able to use their pets. In fact druid pets should be more useful all around. However I feel a tank should always be able to tank better then a pet. When you are in a group with tanks and the pets make better dps and tanks then the players that is a problem. i believe that was the problem with charmed pets. Who wanted a player tank when a pet was so much better? But they should be able to balance this to let pet users use thier pets again.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>6. Stop making mobs immune to abilties of specific classes such as snare, root and stun. There must be other ways to make the encounters challenging without reducing the need for certain classes[/quote].

agree here

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This solution would still leave the cleric as the best healer, the best rezzer, the best buffer, better than druids at taking damage and best equipped of the priest classes. Yet, there would no longer be any reason to leave a druid LFG in the zone for 10 hours while lower level clerics are scooped into groups as soon as they leave a raid, tire of vendoring buffs or log on. Additionally, it will enable the creation of more groups to fill with the many other classes that tell stories of being LFG for lengthy periods of time[/quote]

your solution would leave buffing almost equal and including the component cost for cleric buffs and you having mana regen and resist buffs-you the better buffer.

90 versus 96% rez is only 5-10 minutes exp. With you having a chance to avoid that TPW all together via succor or evac-you would be better. ie you get the party out equals not having to go get another KEI and refresh all the buffs on whole pary

Better at taking damage yes. Better equipped-debatable. At 50 my druid was completely equipped in elysians which she could solo. My cleric had no equivalent armor he could solo. Anytime Moktor dropped in UP it went to tanks in the group.

That leaves us with healing and dps. I am leaving out quad kiting and in fact soloing because we are assuming that SOE will continue nerfing here. Currently cleric soloing is zero and we are making the assumption yours would be zero also.

Our healing is better.

you are much better at dps. Clerics have a magic based nuke only which is the most often resisted. We have an undead only dot which is less mana efficient then our undead nukes (wtf)

our best nuke is 1100 hps for 365 mana at level 62. it takes 6.5 secs to cast with a 7 second recast and is only magic based.

Your best nuke is 1400 hps for 390 mana. At 60 you get moonfire for 1150 hps for 320 mana with a cast of 6.2 secs and a recast of 2.5 with a backup of every type of nuke in case that type gets resisted. Plus you have dots and charmed pets to add to dps. And a line of debuffs to make your nukes more likely to stick.

Even without druid soloing our two classes are much closer in overall contributions and power then you apparently realize. I believe many dont realize how limited the clerics are in many areas. No mana regen buff and no decent resists buffs hurt.

I honestly think you are more hurt by player perception then by actual power.

Definitly adding in the current solo capability you are the stronger class. But I think we all see SOE going down the road to do away with soloing.

So just looking at the grouping capability currently I think we are very very close.

i would be against the rez UNLESS we got the "possible get out of death free card-succor and evac"

I would be against the buff upgrade UNLESS it went both ways. ie you get ac and hps we get mana regen, atk, resists etc

i would be in favor of you getting better healing and us getting better nukes, dots and debuffs.

Oldoaktree
06-05-2003, 07:09 PM
CLerics do have self only mana regen that is equivalent to BOTN and POTG respectively.

Jigsaw
06-05-2003, 07:48 PM
Simply make our pet more than worthless~

This way we can make up for our less-than-Cleric healing and lack of slowing abilities by adding a little more dps?

Maybe you could make it so we have a pet buff spell. Pooh will come out as normal, but we can buff him to something that actually does something. BUT - if we fire off one of our DD nukes, the buff on him disappears... this way our dps can't be too high ... Only raised when we're healing instead of nuking.. Ugh, that sounds hard to code...

The druid pet is always fun to break out, but the cute 'lil guy is only fun in a joke sort of way. He's almost as worthless as the party favors that can be handed out by magicians. It really is pathetic that he adds 1-3 dps and dies to ONE reposte!!

--------------

Or, give us some sort of AA skill that sets us apart from other classes somehow. Maybe a major group atk buff that lasts a relatively short period of time. Actually, combining druids' problems with groups and melee classes' problem with damage compared to casters, you could kill two birds with one stone!

---------------

Around the time PoP came out AAs and spells have been added to other classes that have practically redefined them. (ie, Rogue's SoS and Beastlord's group mana buffs)

Stewwy
06-05-2003, 08:24 PM
The question was <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>how to make the druid more desreiable in groups[/quote].....and people are mostly answering.....<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What I want to solo better as a druid and enhance what I already have.[/quote]

Folks what we have has failed to get us groups and making what we have better isn't going to help. We need to come up with things that will make a viable option in regular groups and I am seeing very little of that here.

*sigh*

Solice Farwalker
06-05-2003, 08:36 PM
I keep seeing people try to qualify their suggestions with something like "limited so as not to compete with..."

Excuse me, we want whatever we get so we can be competitive.

Don't be afraid to compete with the other priest classes with what you suggest (Clerics and Shaman).

Our not being competitive is what is keeping us out of groups.

We don't need something that is like the other classes but we do need something to make us desired in groups. By definition that means we need something in our skills that does compete with their skills.

BTW: The first thing someone always seems to say if there is a suggestion that actually makes us useful in a group is "but that will make druids overpowered." Wrong, 99 percent of the times I have heard that remark it has been wrong, wrong, wrong.

Aludarus
06-05-2003, 09:05 PM
Hmm... pulling these out of me rump...

1. Let PoTx + Virtue/Aego stack. Potx + Focus and Virtue + Focus already do. I've never understood why one side stacks but not the other.

2. Some sort of stackable spell Focus.

3. Give us a decent pet... maybe a rogue pet or something. The spell should ONLY work when we are grouped. Or maybe some other group-only spell that makes us very desired.

4. Increase group size to seven or eight. Maybe an extra slot would fit a druid's role. *shrug*

5. Need a unique ability that makes the class attractive to others. Shaman slow and buff, Clerics heal and rez, druids x and x.

I don't see how they can fix druids this late in the game. That goes for the other classes that aren't desired in groups too. Pretty sure it's a hopeless cause.

Fayne Dethe
06-05-2003, 11:02 PM
Part of the fix would be to improve healing some so its noticeable to other group members. This involves:
1) Healing gift working with our percentage heals so all group members can see the big crits.

2) Lowering the mana cost on Karana Renewal down to 500 (still 100 above CH) so that group members wont see the druid going OOM quite so fast in situations where alot of healing is required. Plus, at 600 mana for KR, its typically more efficient to use the lower healing Tunare Renewal, but people will notice these smaller heals and perceive that druid CH sucks.

3) Lowering the re-use time on Spirit of the Wood by quite a bit. People dont notice it cause its such an incredibly long time inbetween use so it becomes mostly irrelevant for grouping. Make the re-use around 5 minutes - short enough that groups will notice its use but not too often that it becomes imbalancing on raids and in groups. To help balance the shorter re-use time, could add a 1-2 second cast time on the AA ability.





As for our DPS, I dont think druids need better nukes, nor do I think an upgraded bear pet is the way to go. My suggestions are:
1) More dire charm animals in all PoP zones, plus the ability to summon dire charmed pets with the summon companion spell so they dont become a liability in a group. Its rather difficult to get DC pets to path properly.

2) Give Ecci Frosty Breath a negative resist modifier - cold nukes are resisted too much and by the time you can get ecci to land on a mob, it is already dead.

3) Turn Wrath of Wild into something useful and noticeable to a group - the shaman/wizard/mage AA pets are quite flashy. Could make it into a zerg of mini druid bears (rather hilarious), or if you want to keep the damage shield motif make it last 30 seconds and give a percentage damage back to the mob based on how hard the mob hits. Could cap the damage so it isnt too much on raid level mobs.





Finally, we have the problem of melee debuffs. Slow is the end-all debuff and there isnt much you can do to add on to it without trivializing everything.
1) Improving the attack debuffs druid cast may help, but again you run into the problem of is it overpowering in conjunction with slow?

2) Maybe have a short duration buff that improves melee mitigation or avoidance, but doesnt stack with warrior defensive/evasive discs? The problem with something like this is it would need to be coded in such a way that you can use it while grouping but not to help on raid level mobs.

Tils
06-06-2003, 02:05 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What is the reason that they don't want you?[/quote]

I think simply what most people have pointed out. Slow is such a massive factor now since PoP if you dont have a slower in a group then its 10 times harder.

However I dont propse we get any slows. What you must be carefull off here is stepping on someone elses toes Shamans, Enchanters and Beastlords all get very good slows which make them viable in a group. Give that to more classess and you will start to take their "usefullness" out of a group.

What you need to look at what a druid is grouped for and probably if anything its Druids who asked for this role with KR/TR...yes healing.

The problem is that we dont heal as well as Clerics and I think we never should its a cleric role however this means we wont get groups over them aswell.


Lets look at the other classes.

Mages well they have very nice damage now with pets and their nukes would you chose a mage over a druid in a group?

Necros also have a simular problem to druids imho. Why would you chose a necro in a group over another class?

Wizards well we all know they are master nukers and really arnt any comparison to druids in that area and always should be like that thats their primary and almost sole role like a cleric is for healing.

Melee classess im not going to compare to druids because imho theres nothing to compare.


So what should be done to improve our grouping abilities?

The problem imho is you have to consider all the factors both solo, group, raid and effecting other classess.


Its all well and good saying lets improve the damage shield effectiveness. But what will that do lets look at each area.

Solo will probably be minimal at most which is good.

Group will make grouping bit better but would someone chose a druid over a cleric, shaman or whatever because they have a good damage sheild?

Raids damage sheilds would have a realy big problem here of getting overpowering.

Effecting other classess. What about mages they have better damage shields. So whatever you do for druids will effectivly make mages more groupable over druids.



Alot of people say improve our ro's etc lines make them actually do something more significant.

So lets look at each area.

Solo if the attack part of ros is improved then this shouldnt make too much difference. However if the resists part is made better then it might.

Improving ros for grouping on both attack and debuffing would be good.

Raiding again would be a problem. Make the attack part effect more or resist and what happens when your going to kill xxmob? Your effectivly making the encounter easier because our spells will be more powerfull. Could you see soe spending hours tweaking boss encounters again because our spell was making them trivial? I cant and I would just see them nerfing the spell because its easier to do.

Impacting another class? fairly minimal atm to what i can see.


Other things like SotW would make raiding more trivial because you would get druids chain casting it on MTs if the timer was reduced. Harmony whats wrong with it now? Nothing imho.


The problem is without introducing anything new to the class/game theres very little you can do to improve a Druid without effecting the 4 core things in the game (soloing, grouping, raiding and effecting other classess).


What alot of people here are sugesting wont go well in one of those areas.


Well how do people want a druid class to progress?

Healer imho is out of the question and should be avoided at all costs now or you will be stepping on a clerics toes. We are viable secondary healers however clerics are still needed on raids and in groups as primary healers which should always be.

Nuking is also wizzie area and also mage to a certain extent for same reasons as healer.

Dots have been very much neglected imho but the problem here is solo ability if majorly improved.



I would sugest something like this in future expansions of EQ because atm theres little which is going to improve a druid in grouping because the flaw is in the game itself that almost everything in the game some other class is better at.


Curse was a nice idea though. Notice theres absolutely no curse resist spells? Interesting egh. Probably intential however if something new like this was introduced again and added to reguar aswell as boss mobs whats stopping druids from getting it as a primary ability to cure/buff/debuff? and maybe another lesser wanted class secondary (a lesser version).

I think the biggest problem atm is this...

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>nor am I expecting you to introduce me to a new form of ability never seen before[/quote]

Unfortunatly SoE needs to realise that this is the problem. Unless you introduce something into the game which is new and not overpowering (like slow is now) but needed the problem for druids will stay in always being second and less wanted in groups than other classess.

Tils

ZarrosLivinglight
06-06-2003, 04:12 AM
1.) Short duration buff that enhances melee damage only. A sort of "proactive damage shield" that would serve to make druids group desirable by melee heavy groups, help the DPS of the tank classes especially and warriors in particular, and combines a relatively low mana cost with short duration (10-15 minutes) so that it can't be just bought in PoK/Nexus. Scale damage from +2pt damage bonus starting at level 45, ranging up to +15 at 65.

2.) Give druids a line of pet spells analagous to the shaman pets. Spell castable only in zones that have a mob flagged as a plant or animal, and pet takes the form of some local plant or animal life. This would provide a small amount of additional sustained DPS.

3.) A spell-line that adds various nature-based DD proc attacks, similar to the beastlord's pet-buff line but castable on PCs. Spells start at level 39, base damage of 30points, scaling up to 70 points at level 65. Procs based on magic (lightning, has stunning effect), fire, and poison (many natural creatures use poison-based attacks.)

nieros
06-06-2003, 04:32 AM
Mmmm.

I dont think we are answering the fundimental question or point at hand here.
'What is it, that when bob the warrior is making up a group makes him say - Need a druid'

There are some good points in the previous posts dont get me wrong, but there are only a few that would fall into the above ilk.

Say Im bob the warrior. Im making up a group for par example, pot.
What do I want. Well I want crowd control. Theres my enc. I want a healer. Cleric. Ok what else do I want.... its at that point I start to think of abilities from each class and what pops into my head straight away when I think of that class.
Druids dont really have anything that pops into the head striaght away due to the nature of our spells 'a little bit of everything'

I admit I dont usually have a big deal of trouble getting groups, as I spec in healing and am (not to be big headed ) pretty good at it. But I do see a lot of druids sitting LFG soloing.

Unfortunatly, I cant really think of anything major to help us.

Only things I can think of have been covered....

Sotw, - hastened Sotw AA ablity, or lower the reuse time of it somewhat.
A group heal makes a -huge- difference when xping in a group. And really this is the one thing that we do hurt on.

Wrath of wild - change it to targetable only DA style spell. Can save enc's when they getting a beating and save us when healing.

Natures recovery - pulse healing. Just a resonably quick heal over time.

Atk debuffing ( ros ) - make it do something noticable. Reason an enc and shammy are picked are simply to slow the damage taken by tanks. Make ro's actually do something really noticable. Maybe dont make it stack with slow's so its an either / or situation ???

Shrug, dont know.

Tricky question absor.

- nieros

Palarran
06-06-2003, 04:36 AM
First, the minor changes I'd want to see, echoed from above posts:
1) Give E'ci's Frosty Breath a -50 to -200 resist check. If E'ci's can land, then there's no reason to debuff cold in the first place.
2) Make Healing Gift work with TR/KR. They no longer have the advantage of being low aggro (compared to Complete Heal)...
3) Make Ro's Illumination, and maybe Ro's Smoldering Disjunction, take a small percentage off of each hit. If necessary, add a 1% slow component so it won't stack with slow and won't work on mobs immune to slow (many raid targets). Possibly incorporate the old atk debuff part of Illumination into Hand (so it lowers atk by 180 instead of 100), so that we can still lower atk by 180 on mobs that are immune to slow? Or maybe the 1% slow + max hit debuff spell could be a separate spell...perhaps one that checks cold instead of fire (so there would be a number of targets where only one line or the other could be used)?

Now, for something I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere...

It would really help druids get into groups if more classes--NOT NECESSARILY DRUIDS!--were viable as rezzers. In particular necromancers could fill this role if essence emeralds weren't so expensive. If a single essence emerald could somehow be used to perform, say, 10 rezzes, then I wouldn't think twice about tossing the necromancer 40pp or so each time I died. I might even start carrying around my own fragments.
Maybe an essence emerald could be combined in a mortar and pestle to produce 10 essence emerald fragments, and a spell could be added that does a 90% rez and consumes one fragment. This spell could be given, at, say, level 58? (Might be good to add it at a relatively weak level for necromancers...I'm not really sure what level would be most appropriate.)

If rezzes weren't such a concern, then a group wouldn't be so hesitant to accept a druid as main healer, even if those rezzes came from someone else. Assuming necromancers are having a hard time finding groups as well, this could improve the situation for two classes at once.

nieros
06-06-2003, 04:52 AM
Nother thought :

Remember way back in ye olde days.... what was the first group spell you often cast.... Group wolfform.

Oh if only that could have been brought to a level 65 version with increases to match... even in a 'mask of' format so you didnt get melees moaning about the 'bobbing action'

=P

- nieros

Mashesta
06-06-2003, 05:45 AM
"Yep the problem is Res. "

I agree this is one area that causes druids to be overlooked.

I always felt druids were suppose to be "masters of nature" why not let us have a ress animal spell? That would make wolf form and share wolf form a more usefull spell and let us ress our fallen bear shaman brothers. This limits the ress spell to outdoor zones (nature zones) and makes druids 1. more viable for groups and 2. makes another spell usefull.

brum15
06-06-2003, 05:53 AM
Also fire. I have seen tons of suggestions I have agreed with.

1. A worthwhile pet for you
2. spell casting subtlety
3. AA and focus to work with your heals (they always should have)
4. debuffs
5. better group heals (that would be pallys you have to worry about there) I usually dont have one even memmed
6. definitely improved damage shields.
7. a group line of dots that did more damage in less time

The ones I did not agree with were

1. you getting buffs equal to virtue while still having better mana regen buffs and resist buffs

2. you having a rez at 90% versus our 96%. I agree with you having a 90 or 96% self rez and a lesser rez for others. I do believe an evacer(being one of only 2 classes who can) rolled in with 90% rezzing and the ability to port back if TPW is maybe a little too much. Maybe if they had 5 of each class that could rez and port/evac it would spread it out and make overall grouping easier.


I thought I was being very diplomatic in explaining my reasoning actually. If you took it wrong I am sorry.

corlathist
06-06-2003, 05:59 AM
I think a large amount of the "problem" would be removing some of our restrictions.

Either by just removing restrictions on spells or an AA like:

Master of Nature: A druid with this ability is so attune with nature that he is able to call forth the powers of nature in the deepest reaches of the dungeon.
Effect: All outdoor only spells ((optionally including Sow or not)) are now castable indoors.

Realistically with the removal of much of the night/day restrictions on Necro spells. As well as the reduction of power in harmony, there is no reason to keep the "outdoor only" nature.

This would dramatically help druids gain groups in indoor zones.
With the next expansion to be heavily indoor this problem is going to get worse.



Improved Command of Animals: Raises the Cap on Druid Charm by 1 level per level of Command. There really is no satisfactory answer why Druids can charm only to 60, while necros can charm to 65



--------------

Adjust Karana's Renewal mana efficiency.

As is, this spell is less used than TR. Furthermore, compared to CH it is doubly penalized. It heals less then CH
and it does it at 50% more cost. Either penalty alone is fair as Clerics should heal better. Both combined are overkill.

This basically means that a druid KR has his effective mana pool cut by 1/3 compared to a cleric. Hence a 64 Druid holds up worse in a chain then a mid 50s cleric. Clerics should heal better than a druid. No doubt about it. but the healing discreptancy is too large. 64 Cleric outnukes a mid 50s druid by a lot.

I would think reducing KR to 400, or even 500 at current healing level. Or upping the healing level by 1000ish at its current mana cost would restore KR to actually use it in a group.

Mashesta
06-06-2003, 06:00 AM
"2. you having a rez at 90% versus our 96%. I agree with you having a 90 or 96% self rez and a lesser rez for others. I do believe an evacer(being one of only 2 classes who can) rolled in with 90% rezzing and the ability to port back if TPW is maybe a little too much. Maybe if they had 5 of each class that could rez and port/evac it would spread it out and make overall grouping easier."

I don't think having a self ress would help us get groups, not that I would complain but I think this thread is about making us better for groups.

If we had a 90% ress animal spell that worked only on wolf and bear form it really limits the ress to just groups that have a druid in them or beg for wolf form, also limits us to out door zones so as to not take the main focus of ressing away from clerics.

brum15
06-06-2003, 06:06 AM
that would be a good idea mashesta but, if they are going to do that they really need to do something about wolf form faction. Otherwise normally indif npcs such as guards or such would aggro. ie highhold keep. No reason for wolf form to be KOS anywhere bear form is not.

dang why do even barbarians, who call themselves the wolves of the north and keep snowflake as a pet, hate me in wolf form?

Mashesta
06-06-2003, 06:09 AM
Well the res would be a higher lvl spell, so I really don't think the KoS problems would be an issue. Most the PoP outdoor spells it wouldnt be, thinking pre 60 where druids exp I dunno been a while sence I was lvl 60, the grey and madiens eye ring a bell neither of those would cause a problem.

Glarnor
06-06-2003, 06:15 AM
I believe this is a problem which directly stems from expansions.

Rez:
Pre-kunark, if you died, it was okey if you didn't get a rez, it wasn't that big of a deal because it was only a little while of kills and you'd never instantly die either. Kunark comes, and you're no longer loosing hours worth of xp, you're loosing days and weeks worth of xp when you die. Clerics become integral to groups. SoV, SoL, PoP and LoY adds even harder hitting mobs and further exacerbates the issue. PoP with its huge xp modifiers and extreme xp needed per level, while on the other hand little increase in xp loss death makes a difference, but not enough, because of the increased chance of dying as compared to before.

Slow:
Pre-kunark slow was okey, it was balanced, I gather. Healing isn't an issue, because mobs don't do all that much damage. As more expansions come, gear inflates and to combat this, harder-hitting mobs with more hp is introduced. And the cycle repeats itself for every expansion so far. Slow has become more and more integral to a group and with PoP, it's at the point where if you have no slower, you have no group. This reflects back on the dependence of rez due to more frequent deaths.

Snares:
Mobs that don't run, lots of area to fight in, unsnareables/unrootables, so many people who don't bother doing it has completely ruined the need for snaring. Leveling up alts, I hardly see anyone even bothering to snare anymore, and this is reflected in the higher levels. If a mob does go into flee mode, what does it matter? you have AA's specifically to kill them, lots of dps to finish off the runner before he gets anywhere, etc, etc.

Regens:
As more expansions has been introduced, druids (and shamans) have been given upgrades to their regen lines. But this upgrade is linear. HP increase of players are not. Better buffs, better gear, AA's has increased the hp the higher you get by so much that regens are next to nothing per tick. Further, when mobs hit for 3-500 per hit, giving 25 hp every tick is not a big deal.

Further, clerics have such an over-abundance in healing now that they can easily top everyone off and still keep up on mana. Because of this, regens have been reduced to hp-to-mana helpers, because they do little to counteract the damage caused by mobs anymore. And if you read that last line again, I mention hp-to-mana, which are probably another hinderance when it comes to increasing the hp per tick on regen. (I'm not even going to talk about the ring ds/regen)

Damage Shields:
Damage shields used to make a difference. You didn't have to slow mobs and the mob would get significantly hurt by an added DS. Nowadays, DS are somewhere between an afterthought and unneeded. The massive sustained output of melees through gear and haste coupled with the necessity of slow and huge hp on mobs have atrophied DS'es to the point where they are a waste of a buff slot.

HP buffs:
HP buys time. The more HP you have, the more time you and your group have to get things done. As mobs do more and more damage, this matters more and more, and the near 900 hp extra in Virtue makes a difference which matters. What is the point of having mana regen if you're dead? The extreme situation PoP has put us in requires you to try to min-max as much as possible.

Succor:
If you're trying something midly challenging, you're going to have someone getting close to dying sometimes. If you succor too early, people will be upset with you because they thought they were fine and having to go back to camp and set up all over again is a significant amount of downtime which noone wants. If you succor too late, you now have a death on your hand which you can't solve, and people will start to leave. If you succor on time, people will leave because they're afraid of what will happen if you don't make it the next time.

DPS:
Again, as expansions are released, classes get buffed, but to avoid druids stepping on other peoples toes, we don't get buffed as much. Rinse and repeat that through 3-4 expansions, and you'll end up with a significant gap between druids and other dps classes. This is also further exacerbated by our abilities to handle mobs in one-on-one and escape spells, because any significant DPS boost will also increase our effectiveness at soloing, which doesn't seem to be something SOE wants to do.


The min/maxing attitude, coupled with mediocre upgrades and never being the best at anything or having anything important is the problem of the druid. It is not one thing, but several, and fixing it will not be easy.

Firemynd
06-06-2003, 06:46 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?[/quote]

Corresponding to the points above:

1. This is pandora's box; you can't take back all the utility which has been given to other classes over the past couple years. However, you can design future encounters to create greater and renewed demand for those utility spells, such that potions and devices would be far less preferred and more cumbersome than inviting a class who can provide those utilities innately.

2. Minor tweaking.
--A. Our partial CH spells (TR/KR) should be made to work with Healing Gift so that people can get a better visual indication of druid heal effectiveness. (Note: the description of Healing Gift in a druid's AA window says it gives a chance to land criticals on heal spells; it never mentioned that some druid heals would be excluded).
--B. Add a new AA ability with goal of improving people's perceptions of druid nuke effectiveness.

Suggested: "Nature's Focus" AA:2/4/6, When activated, adds 100/125/150% to the damage of the next DD cast, at a cost of 200% mana. Displayed as a critical blast. Prerequisite: rank 3 Spell Casting Fury. Reuse 4 or 5 minutes.

By spending double the mana, would basically be able to emulate a critical blast. Increased damage at ranks 2 and 3 would make the mana cost less inefficient, but would provide visible crit numbers which at least don't <em>seem</em> to be so far behind the 'normal' crits of mages and wizards.

I agree that the druid class doesn't need any huge new ability, and I certainly do NOT want anything which could be considered a lesser version of some other class' ability. What we <span style="text-decoration:underline">need</span> is a boost in what other players SEE. Not an increase in power per se, but more visual impact.

Currently, most of what druids provide to groups (especially in debuffing) is virtually unnoticeable to the naked eye. Unless you announce to your group the effects of each spell you cast, they're more likely to attribute any derived benefits as plain luck or their own skills. Even then, players don't know what a mob's existing ATK and resist numbers are, so announcing that you're lowering those numbers is pretty pointless.

BTW, what is the logic behind a fire resistance debuff that relies upon fire susceptibility to land, or a cold debuff that only works if the mob is already susceptible to cold? Have always thought these spells need to reversed to make any sense. /shrug

~Firemynd

Tuppen FV
06-06-2003, 06:53 AM
I have soloed my druid probably 10 times in his entire career...he is a grouping druid when at all possible.

One of the most unique abilities that my druid brought to groups pre-50 (pre the harmony changes) was the ability to AoE harmony outdoors. Along with snare, it was the one of the nearly unique things that he brought to a group at that level.

When the harmony/pacify changes were made, and harmony of nature was introduced, my druid stopped being asked to "harmony". I think my druid has used harmony of nature less than a dozen times, and typically that was only when soloing.

Harmony of Nature is made for the soloing druid.

In groups, I find that clerics and paladins do a much better job of pulling using pacify. The fact that their spell works both indoors and outdoors effectively negates the need for druids to use Harmony of Nature in any group situation where a paladin is present and doing the pulling (My druid is in a small, family type guild in which paladins are the primary melee and pullers. Clerics can even pull more effectively than druids by using pacify if they are battle clerics who can take a few punches).

If Harmony of Nature were made for indoor use, my druid most likely still wouldn't be asked to use the spell. A fix would be needed to make it more effective than "pacify" -- without nerfing the pacify line of spells (no need to nerf other classes just to make druids more desirable). The only way I can see to do would be to make Harmony of Nature an AoE spell -- at least outdoors. At the very least, it should be put on equal footing with "pacify" and be able to be cast indoors on single targets.

Harmony was one of the few unique things groups used to ask my druid to do on a regular basis. He hasn't been asked to do it since it was nerfed, since Harmony of Nature was introduced, and since "pacify" became just as good an option.

Deller
06-06-2003, 07:09 AM
Just a thought but,

Give us a buff for Boo Boo that scales with the size of the group and is VERY short duration say 90 seconds with instant recast but fairly mana intensive. The more people in the group the stronger Boo Boo is. This would help our dps in a group situtation only.

Also a short duration hard damage mitigation spell as mentioned above, however also scale it with group size.

I don't want to compete with clerics or any other class, I just want to be considered as viable for that last open spot in a group.

Deller

Gneaus
06-06-2003, 07:15 AM
The game evolved into specialists. Grouping, you want the specialist classes, raiding you want the specialists. Druids come along for 9s and maybe resists. 1 maybe 2 get that covered. Healing and DD we do out of lack of numbers for the cleric or wizards.

The problem with our heals is they are slower AND cost more mana AND heal for less. Triple penalty. I would love to have a fast casting heal and be more able to play the role of a rescue healer. We can heal in groups, but group efficiency goes down. I can keep the group alive in PoE but not at the same sustained pull rate the cleric could (same people, I took the clerics place - all guild). Coupled with no ressing and nearly half the HP value from buff, why would you want a druid? Lack of group healing really hurts. Druids are viable so long as everything is smooth. Situation starts to get out of hand, the wizard is taking damage, the MT is taking damage, chanter at half health already my only options are evac or chose who dies.

Our DPS is fine I think, especially with a DC pet. Up it any more and I think we start encroaching on the already recognized DPS kings. I think we suffer from lack of good PR in this area (folks just don't know what we can do DPS wise - any bean counters want to post some numbers in another thread?).

When I first started, I thought of the Druid as a master of movement. We have ports, snares, roots, SoW. Grouping in dungeons I (personally, not from recognition of my class) became the ghetto mezzer. We have the basis for it, even some AAs that enhance our rooting. A big problem to this is we get overwritten. Ensnare is overwritten by practically any other snaring class, even our own AE snare. Major weakness I think. Duration > the small percentage difference in movement reduction I believe. We have the longest duration roots, with 2 AAs to improve them. However, they are overwritten by any other rooting class - everyone overwrites everyone. I spend the 10 AA to decrease the likelihood direct damage will break my root, that the mob is going to stay rooted in place while my group/raid beat it soundly about the head and shoulders, only to have it knocked off by another person rooting. Yay yay wasted AA points. (Enchanters are sometimes wont to root after mezzing if we have a great number of adds.) Perhaps this is an area where druids can become better.

Our debuff line - outside of FR, and CR to a smaller extent, I simply have no FAITH that it is working. Or if so, it provides no significant help/advantage to the group/raid. This is too subtle of an ability. You can't point to it and say "See, you took less damage." The effect cannot be seen or really proven. Either one believes it helps or they do not. It's definately not something people greatly worry about not having present. (If I see a reply "...working as intended" I'll KNOW it is broken.)

Boil this down, I think druids are feeling the effect of not being a specialist. What that specialty could be without stepping on the toes of existing specialists I have no idea. We developed not as a class in our own right, but measured against the cleric and the wizard, becoming something of a hybrid of them. The game is (now) designed around the specialist, people do not want to 'make due' if they can get a more optimal setup. Why xp for x hours for less gain than you can get with going with the acknowledged leader of that role?

ZarrosLivinglight
06-06-2003, 07:42 AM
The summary missed:

1.) Spell that grants a +damage bonus to melee hits (ala the damage bonus found on some weapons), represented by sharp and pointy viny tendrils enveloping the weapons of said melee.

2.) Spell that gives its target a DD-proc based on damage types found in nature (lightning+stun, poison, etc.)

3.) Scaled pets ala the shaman wolf pets, summonable in any zone that has mobs flagged as plants or animals, taking the form of one of those plants or animals.

4.) Reincarnation style rez line, percentage back based on paladin line, includes as a recourse a non-dispellable illusion of a random natural creature (*Gorg the Ogre returns as a snowbunny...*)

Tuppen FV
06-06-2003, 07:54 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Boil this down, I think druids are feeling the effect of not being a specialist. What that specialty could be without stepping on the toes of existing specialists I have no idea. We developed not as a class in our own right, but measured against the cleric and the wizard, becoming something of a hybrid of them. The game is (now) designed around the specialist, people do not want to 'make due' if they can get a more optimal setup. Why xp for x hours for less gain than you can get with going with the acknowledged leader of that role?[/quote]

Well said with regard to grouping druids.

The unfortunate and sad reality is that druids are a specialist class. They are specialists at soloing, and they get treated by SoE as such.

If I were a soloing druid, I think that I would be quite peeved over the recent changes to solo exp in PoP. I would ALSO be quite content with the spells and soloing options currently available to druids.

However, as a druid who prefers to group, I find that we are grossly inadequate when compared to specialists whose only strengths lay in groups. Why choose a druid when a wizard can do more casting damage and evac? Why choose a druid when a cleric can heal better, has better skin spells, and HP buffs? Why choose a druid when a shaman can cast a better regen, slow and has better DoT's? Why choose a druid when a mage has better DS spells, has a summoned pet who doesn't eat exp, and can give instant mana via mod rods? I don't think I need to go on.

It would be wonderful if SoE found some way to make us uniquely useful in groups, but I won't hold my breath.

The only way I can see in which SoE can make druids uniquely useful in group situations is to <strong>create a useful liine of group only spells that can't be cast by a non-grouped druid AND that will disappear from the buff lineup when someone departs from a group.</strong> (as for what this line of spells would be...I have no idea). Why would it have to be this way? Because, virtually anything that would benefit a group would most likely make a druid's soloing ability even more effective. And we can't have druid soloing become more effective can we? :p

Gimli fan
06-06-2003, 08:13 AM
Translocate at lvl 60. Trans a peep or group to their bind point.

Upgrade to pet to make it mid range (as opposed to low low), split them as well. One pet at 60 that will cast group regen spell and group buff, one at 61 that will cast group thorns and an attack buff.

Better healing has been mentioned.

Keryia Winterwolf
06-06-2003, 08:22 AM
Simply put there is no good reason to put a druid in a group. As someone said more then ever EQ is a world of specialists and there is nothing that we do that stands out as a must have or desireable to have.

If I'm in a group there is almost always a cleric in the group and at that point my healing is minimal if at all....especially if there is a shaman in group. Some groups will make do with a druid but more often then not they'll make do with a Shaman and a Pally.

I don't want any sort of slow, I just want something that made groups think that a druid is a good thing. Additionally with how good exp is, grave yards and clerics most groups don't even consider the chance to escape important now.

Keryia

Stormfront
06-06-2003, 09:04 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Not having your own mana regen is great if there is a chanter or druid in group, but not acceptible to chanter/druid free groups. and in fact druid regen stacks with chanter making it even better[/quote]

Brum, not to be argumentative bud, but clerics do buff their own mana regen. If I'm not mistaken AotZ is a self buff that stacks with Virtue and provides 8 mana regen. Rarely do my clerics want Pot9 for this exact reason. They would rather have Virtue for the duration with AotZ.

Knotthed
06-06-2003, 09:05 AM
What most of the threads that I have read have been addressing the Druid lvl 60+.

I am lvl 58 and am VERY good at grouping and soloing. I have built my reputation up to grouping. Unfortunately, we need to address the Druid at lvls 50-57ish. There is absolutely no use for that Druid in PoP at those levels. There is absolutely nothing that they can add to a group. Groups will have KEI and Ageo before they zone in. The only buffs I have ever been asked for is STR buff and Damage Shields. Regrowth and my baby heal spells can't keep up with the damage output of the mobs in PoP, and before you know it, i'm oom Therefore, no use for a Druid in a group until he gets our CHeal spell. I can't charm a pet because that would break and we'd have a po'ed mob, and pet, banging on the group. That is too risky.

I would like to see something done about our charming abilities, OR, do something with BooBoo to make his lvl and abilities reflect the lvl of the Druid. I think the extra damage dealer that our pet would provide, as well as, our DOTs and nukes would make us wanted in groups in these levels.

I feel really sorry for the lvl 50ish Druid right now. Now that the charming and soloing nerfs are in full force, the new PoP Druid will quickly loose interst and quickly stop playing their chararctes. If the new expansion will be dungeons as is commonly believed, then there is no way we will be wanted there in our classes current form. I like the ideas about harmony and SoW being able to be used indoors.

Sorry I didn't make a lot of good suggestions, but I want the Devs to hear the voice of the lvl 46-58 Druid, and not just the UBER Druids out there. Our class is quickly going to die out since we are not wanted in current form, and soloing is going the way of the Dodo Bird.

Knotthed

Rolaque
06-06-2003, 09:13 AM
Not sure which thread this goes into, so:

I would like an AA ability that allows me to train in a second specialization. Maybe not to 200, but somewhere in the 100-200 range.

Rolaque
Saryrn

Fayne Dethe
06-06-2003, 09:24 AM
Stormhaven, regarding the list of changes for current druid spell/abilities, I think 2 should be added. First, make summon companion work on dire charm pets and put dire charmable animals in all PoP xp zones in locations that people actually xp at (not just the entrance to HoH, or the entrance to PoFire ;p). Second, re-work Wrath of Wild - it goes unnoticed even by the tank you put it on. Change Wrath of Wild into a zerg of bears that attack, or make it into a 30 second duration percentage based damage shield. It's also been suggested to turn it into a targetable DA, but I dont think clerics would let that fly.

Also, the issue "Allow Protection of the (whatever) stack with Aego/Virtue" has been a long standing one and very rather unlikely it will be changed this late in the game. Plus, it doesnt help when no clerics are in the group. A better solution would to turn Natureskin into the symbol line of spells - keep the regen so it adds a bit more than a normal symbol, but have it lower hitpoints than the equivalent cleric symbol at that level (marzin is 640 to 700 hp and level 54 spell, maybe make natureskin 590 to 640 plus the 4 hp regen. And of course make it cost a peridot).

Ganlaan Stormwind
06-06-2003, 09:59 AM
About 2 months ago I started playing again after about a 6 month break. One of the first things I realized when I got back was that our harmony spell sucked. I had no idea what was going on but I couldn't harmony. Then I found out about the new spell and that helped a little. I definitely think that we should get the end all be all spell in the harmony class. Even make it indoor. Just dont get too carried away because that would take away from the pulling art on raids and make the bigger raids too easy.

Always liked the idea of tweaking our ATK debuff spells to make it actually debuff more. Like others have said, I have yet to be in a group in PoP where we did not have a slower. Almost every group I have been in all the people wanted to quit once the slower left and we could not find another. Making our ATK debuff spells an alternative to shaman slows, but not stack, would give us something to work with I think.

If they do something with our ATK debuff line, then also throw in a pulse heal or something we can use not only on ourselves but on others.

Make our self only coat line of spells able to cast on group and stack with everything else.

Make the group wolf form spells better so that they are wanted more by others. Increase the atk and maybe a "little" haste that stacks with other haste.

If they do the wolf form thing, then I like Mashesta's idea of the animal only rez (and I don't like it just cuz he's in the same guild as myself). Would only work in outdoor zones, which a lot of PoP and many others are that we can exp in.

Maybe make our mask line of spells able to cast on others.

Most of what I said is stuff that improves abilities of a lot of the stuff we already have, that other classes have too. Somebody said it earlier that if we keep "sharing" abilities with others then we never really are going to specialize in anything. This will always leave room for druids getting overlooked for somebody else who can do it better than us. I really like the idea of the ATK debuff stuff and think that it would do a lot for us and if done right would give us something similar to shamans, but still make it unique as well.

I'm not saying we should get everything I talked about here, just wanted to throw out some ideas. It would really be cool to see something get done about this that wasn't lame.

Oldoaktree
06-06-2003, 10:14 AM
...is far too situational, and would be too rarely used.

Doesn't change the essential fact that wolf form does not stack with Avatar, so a whole segment of the player base will never use wolfform under any circumstances. Yes, a new version of WF could address that issue.

But the other point is that we can only animal illusion people in outdoor zones, and so effectively this would be an outdoor only rez. I don't see it materially affecting our ability to get groups.

Laeyakk
06-06-2003, 10:23 AM
Protection of Tunare:
400 mana, 10 second casting time, heals 2 k hps and places a 2 k 30% mitigating runeshield on the target, duration 10 ticks.

A 30% mitigating runeshield soaks 30% of all damage to the target until the total is reached.


Tunare's Blessing:
100% reliable Death-proc.
Duration 1.5 hours, requires an emerald.

When the buffed player dies, the following things happen:
All mana is drained, all buffs are stripped.
HPs are reduced to 50% of unbuffed max.
A 1 minute debuff is placed on them that:
1> Roots them.
2> Divine auras them.
3> Drains 100 mana per tick.

Karana's Blessing:
Identical spell, but takes 2 plains pebbles instead.

Group version takes 3 emeralds or 6 plains pebbles.

"random death" in an XP group without a cleric is a large source of downtime. This buff would deal with random deaths in a group or raid very well, but would deal poorly with wipeouts (solo, raid, or in a group).

This doesn't replace rez, but it makes random deaths non-cripping in a group without a rezzer.


Wrath of Thorns:
15% damage shield.

15% of all melee damage to target gets delt to the attacker. Does not work on rampage damage.

On a raid verses a AoW or better mob, that generates 500 or so DPS -- alot, but more than one Wrathing druid won't stack. And it isn't mitigation, is just DPS.

Oldoaktree
06-06-2003, 10:34 AM
Both of the first two seem to be skills already covered on some level...

Runes already pretty abundant, and can't see us getting one larger than enchanters have (even getting one at all really).

The second looks like a version of DI...not sure why it would be needed or what it would change. Saving throw that leaves the tank so debilitated would not do much good since they would still likely have agro and would just die again.

ceylonn
06-06-2003, 11:08 AM
It's interesting that even among ourselves we are devided by the healer/nuker factions. The druid has always carried a "jack of all trades" stigma that will prevent us from being best at anything. I would like to see this expanded into a "class defining" attribute for druids in that the druid class can master multiple specializations. Since we are mediocre healers, nukers, buffers, and crowd control, allow us to train alter, evoc, con, etc to 200 skill. Basically our specialization capping at 200 on all realms of magic lower the mana costs of being able to fill any slot in a group as needed.

Oldoaktree
06-06-2003, 11:22 AM
I don't want to lose our jack of all trades make up.

What is interesting to me is that bards are in the same box so to speak, and yet don't seem to suffer the same problems that druids do finding groups (I addressed this but it got moved to the other thread).

What makes bards so unique is that they are VERY good at enchancing those they group with in a way that stacks with every other class.

Druids get a lesser, overwritten version of buffs and secondary abilities in each area.

There is nothing inherent about versatility meaning you are absolutely replaceable or second best.

I just think that there is something in the mindset of SOE that has always avoided giving druids any uniqueness.

Stormhaven
06-06-2003, 11:22 AM
Think of it this way - our healing vs nuking is pretty well balanced right now. Yes, there will always be people who say otherwise, and there will always be room for improvements.

Now, take that to the side and think of it this way -
If you had a wizard, enchanter, shaman, warrior and a cleric in your group, what would you bring to the group that's special?

What would you add to the druid class to make others think "I want a druid in our group"?

This isn't about making the druid a god class or getting more stuff from other classes. No matter how many items we mooch from the other classes, they will always be better at it than us because we are just borrowing their skills.

Come on guys, don't tell me that the best we can do is say "this other class has skill_X, we need that too!"

LilWolf
06-06-2003, 11:54 AM
With the new expansion... its time to look at harmony.

I believe that they should get rid of all our dungeon restrictions... Including harmony!

This would at least bring harmony up to par of others. From the best -> the worse... It needs looking at... and this would help.

Treeform in all zones... Sounds strange that they gave us new treeform spells, at the same time zones that you can't use it.... Stalagmites in dungeons... Or some plant..

I LOVE the idea of a DamageSheild based on percent. I like this better then a animal slow myself.

Oldoaktree
06-06-2003, 12:02 PM
...but since we are looking for new, here we go again.

Four new buff spells - %'s I used are just for concept and would need to be balanced/thought through.

1) Random %chance of converting melee dmg received into healing at a fixed rate, say a 50% return (ie say 10% chance, it will be streaky but overall would act as a dmg output reduction of 10% on mobs with say 5% becoming healing - a 50% return rate)

2) Random %chance of converting spell/spell-like (ie breath) effects into healing, say at a 50% return (as above perhaps 10% chance, so 1x out of 10 that 1000hp aoe might be a 500hp heal).

3) Random %chance of converting melee dmg received into MANA at a fixed rate, say 50% return. (ie a melee hit for 300 has a 10% chance of being converted into 150 mana).

4) Random %chance of converting spell/spell-like (ie breath) effects into healing, say at a 25% return (as above perhaps 10% chance, so 1x out of 10 that 1000hp aoe might become 250 mana. Remember this nets down to 25% of 10%, so 2.5% mana return on spell dmg over time. Shouldn't be too nutty).

Sorvalayn
06-06-2003, 12:35 PM
I don't have much to add in the way of my own ideas but I'd like to highlight a few things others have said that I agree with.

"A better solution would to turn Natureskin into the symbol line of spells"

A very good idea. It would resussicate the long lost hp/regen line and provide a use for them. Of course it would have to be balanced somehow like maybe adding a reagent.

"we need to address the Druid at lvls 50-57ish. There is absolutely no use for that Druid in PoP at those levels. There is absolutely nothing that they can add to a group."

Another excellent point. I have a friend who recently quit her 55 druid and start playing another class because in her words, the druid just stopped being useful in mid 50s. It's true, they have very little to add to a group. While the 60-65s could use some tweaking, it's the mid 50s who are in crisis.

Sor

oddjob1244
06-06-2003, 12:41 PM
Remember if it took you more than 30 seconds to write Absor probably wont read it.

A spell that makes someone take NOTICABLY less damage. A spell that makes the person 'defensive' for a reasonable period of time. Only able to keep it up on one person. Recast = Duration.

or A spell that makes a mob put out NOTICABLY less damage. A massive atk debuff.

Stumbletoe
06-06-2003, 02:30 PM
Specialists, as noted, are given preference when people are making groups. It only makes sense, as detailed by many posts on the subject - bottom line is, most people want maximum bang for their EQ buck; best possible xp gained in x amount of time for the pickup group to operate.

As a Generalist Class, we can do a ton of fun, nifty, good things. Yet, since because we are indeed a Generalist Class, any/all of our fun, nifty, and good things can be done by someone else - and done better. So, we are thus regulated to second tier when people look to make groups. Hence, Absor's questions :

1. What is the reason that they don't want you?

2. What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?

My opinon mirrors a lot of what has been posted so far, and I will offer a couple of alternatives as well.

Answers to Absor's questions:

1. They don't want us because we are not specialists.

2. Make us specialists.

The time for the old arguement of "jack of all trades" is long dead. The game has changed in so many ways over the years, and to have any class now at the top end of the game without a niche is a death knell to group attractiveness. This may not have been the way the original EQ was designed, but its certainly the way the current incarnation of the game is. Generalists, for as much flexibility and neat stuff they can offer, simply fall short when people look to make your typical xp group.

Possible solutions:

1. Attack Debuff Spells Enhancement

As noted in many previous posts, we already do have a line of spells that could be beefed up to actually make us Specialists. Our Attack Debuff line of spells. In it's current form, they are near useless for many encounters at Raid Level; although I have seen some Druids praising them at the extremely high level (Elemental Planes and up) part of the game. Since most Druids won't get there, the majority of the time those spells are still useless in Raids; or nearly so. They are completely useless in xp groups.

Make the Attack Debuffs actually powerful; on par with Shaman Slows. I honestly don't see why this could not be done - Slow is an integral part of both xp and Raid encounters now. By enhancing our Attack Debuffs to become the equivalent of a Shaman Slow, Druids will have instant Specialty, a need for xp and Raids, a desirability for folks to seek us out since we would then bring a good ability to the group. As noted in other posts, simple make it not stack with Slow to avoid trivializing encounters. And, I daresay that Shaman's would still be preferred (especially in Raids) since a mob can still proc/enrage/flurry/etc. a LOT more than an unslowed Mob. All our spell would do is reduce the overall damage output per hit; not do a thing with speed of said hits. This also appeals to me as a Druid, since our damage shield, weak though it is for this stage of the game, would now do a good deal more damage since the opponent is not slowed.

2. DPS Enhancement through Damage Shield

As a Direct Damage class, we are firmly seated in third place as a caster; and a good deal down the line in the overall scheme of things when you mix in the melee classes. Druid DPS falls well short of Rogues, Rangers, Wizards and Mages. Though I love to crit for 3k+, its just not a major draw for groups when they are looking to form a good xp group to consider Druids for the DPS slot. Solution:

Change Wrath of the Wild from a single hit to a 10-hit Damage Shield. Leave the duration the same. This means that once every four minutes, a group can count on the Druid's capability to shell out 6500 damage (at level 3) to an opponent, albeit indirectly. Before people go nuts and start screaming unbalance, look at DPS classes. Wizards can crit, in a four minute time span, for well over 6500 damage. Rogues can easily eclipse that mark. A Mage who is blasting away and using a pet can do well more than 6500 damage every four minutes. I do not see this as bringing us to any of those classes capability for DPS. But it would provide a group with an alternative, to know that a Druid has the potential to bring some good damage to the table in addition to the occasional crit from a nuke.

If SOE is worried about this being too much damage for some Raid-Level Mobs, simply adjust the code for the Raid-Level Mob to have a chance to partial, or completely resist a Damage Shield if the damage is over a certain number. So long as that code is limited to some Raid-Level Mobs only, we then would still be a viable alternative for bringing good DPS to a group, and through use of a unique druid skill/AA. We wouldn't be stepping on the toes of Wizards nor Mages with bigger, flashier nukes. We certainly wouldnt approach the DPS capability of Rogues nor Rangers. But we would be able to offer a group a signficant gain in DPS using this ability, as well as all the other flexibilities a Druid has.

The first idea has more merit, I believe, since it would truly make a Druid a Specialist - something that is honestly needed for Druids to be attractive to groups. The second idea is merely something that I think could up our overall DPS without stepping on toes, and by using an existing skill in the game.

Absor, thanks for opening up lines of communication on this.

Stumbletoe

Palarran
06-06-2003, 03:21 PM
I think some people just don't have a good understanding of the numbers involved, I don't think it's actually greed in many cases.

Lofun
06-06-2003, 03:50 PM
With the amount of healing power druids have I would like to see some form of DA

TeriMoon
06-06-2003, 04:23 PM
Druids have a lot of high agro spells. Most of us at the level of people posting on this board understand to a fairly high degree how to manage that. Problem comes in when in order to land your nukes you have to debuff with high agro debuffing spells and load up nukes on top of that. I find that I can nuke an average of 2 times in an average group with average agrp control and average players and remain free of agro. My odds of gaining agro go up considerably after that. This means that most of the time I am fom, or at like 90m which is the same thing really. How this is poosibly helpful for a group, I don't know, A subtlety effect would help me use my less potent nukes to greater effectiveness and actually help the group kill stuff quicker. Surely that's not hard to comprehend.

I dunno, am I wrong here? Druids in a group with a cleric will generally nuke, I thought. How many nukes can you do in BoT without serious risk to group agro control?

Dikmer
06-06-2003, 05:40 PM
Well, I don't think this is a druid vs cleric thing, and I don't think that it's a bad thing to give druids something to offer to allow them to take the place of a cleric in an exp group.

However, all that aside, the soloability of the cleric is next to nil. We accept that. We know we can't solo effectively, so we know we have to protect our only way to expand and grow...the group.

But looking at this grocery list of "requests" or "wishes", I don't see balance. I see things that will increase not only what you bring to a group, but what you can do soloing as well. In particular, "animal only heal over time" and "debuffs that limit the damage a mob can do". If clerics got plate mitigation and self invis, we would be thrilled to death. But this list of wishes we see coming from druids, well, it just doesn't seem you guys are ever happy. You always want more. And more.

It seems to me, and to every cleric on the cleric boards who saw this list, that you want to be able to solo even better than you can now, AND do things that up til now is in the realm of the other priest classes. Slows, better heals, debuffs, resses and to top it all off, less aggro while doing it.

I don't know how else to express it. All I can say is, I sincerely hope you take a long hard look at this wish list, and come up with something more reasonable before it gets submitted to Absor.

Rydex of Bristlebane
06-06-2003, 07:06 PM
My eyes cant handle reading 5 pages right now so I am not sure if this has been mentioned.

I have been thinking a group version of innate camo would be a interesting AA upgrade to a great AA. Innate camo would be a prerequisite for group and group would be a separate spell, not an upgrade as the root AAs. Making this a Group spell, not a targetable spell would increase it as a utility spell as it would kill any pets in the group. If innate camo would be too powerful, a group set time invis at 61 would be just as useful.

Seriena
06-06-2003, 07:09 PM
I don't see how a group innate camo would get us into groups. It's a great utiliy for ourselves to get around with but doesn't bring much to the table otherwise.

To go over the rest

# Request for Casting Subtlety type skill

Would be nice, but I don't really think we need and it won't get us into groups. I hate getting beat on after heals just as much as the next person but I think this skill might be a bit over balancing for us.

# Request for Healing Adept and Healing Gift to work with all heal spells

Agree with this 100%. Would help us on raids and in groups. We have the aa's and should get to use them OR HG should cost less aa points for us to balance it with clerics. I can't imagine why HG is restricted for us like it is and would like to hear some justification on it.

# Reduce reuse timer on SotW from 22 to 5-10min

I also agree with this, but anything less than 10 minutes would be overpowering. The heal over time itself doesn't do much for anyone. It certainly doesn't "heal" with the amount of hps everyone has these days, but the DS when stacked with other DS's does do quite a bit of dmg. So, it should have a longer reuse but not 22 mins. 10-12 minutes would be adequate.

# Increase resist modifier on E'ci's Frosty Breath

E'ci's seems to be fine to me the way it is and love the spell. I don't use it in groups, which is what we're discussing I thought, but on raids, its great.

# Reevaluate Harmony - best lull spell is now the worst

This is a big issue. I see it hurting us a lot when the new dungeons expansion comes out and would like to see it addressed.

# Allow Protection of the (whatever) stack with Aego/Virtue

I disagree. The 3 priest classes are pretty well balanced when it comes to buffing rolls, as long as people use them. Druids with BotN, Shaman with FoS and Clerics with Kazads. If they would increase the duration of Kazads that'd be great, but most of our clerics have Extended enchancement items which increases the duration of Kazads to be exactly that of MGB so there really isn't an issue.

One thing they could add though is a rule about Aego not overwriting BotN + Kazads.

# Lower the mana cost of Karana's Renewal (500)

Agree with this.


New ability ideas:
# Animal-only slow

I disagree. We're not a slowing class and shouldn't be. Our power in this area comes from damage shields and atk debuffs. Granted that doesn't help us in groups but asking for slow is unreasonable, even if it's animal slow.

# AC buff vs animals only

I don't like restricted spell lines and there's not enough animals in the game to worry about. A few extra ac points really doesn't make much of a diff.

# NPC damage mitigation spell (limit amount of damage outputted by a creature). Does not stack with slow spells.

Unique idea, would have to read more about it before commenting.

# Attack debuff with significant reduction in attack - stacks with slow spells.

I can see it being pretty overpowering on a raid. I think we're doing pretty well in our debuff lines already.

# Percentage based damage shields - instead of a set number, damage shield which returns a percentage of what a creature hits you for.

I think we're already doing very well in the ds department, especially with SotW - if it gets the recast reduced.

# Increase crit melee hits (short duration).

This is unique and has some merit. Melee would love us in groups.

# Increase crit spells (short duration).

Same as above.

# Damage bonus for melee (short duration).

/hug bards.

# Extremely short duration mob slow spell.

Again, we aren't slowers and don't think we should get any form of slow.

# "Fork" AA skill - % based activation (like crits) - on a successful activation, the spell acts as if two of the same spell were cast with no additional aggro, just double damage.
# Animal only heal over time

Toss out the restricted spell ideas please!

# 90% rez

No thank you.

# 61-65 level group wolfform or group Mask of the (whatever). Adds to attack, still gives ultravision, some mana/hp regen (+2-3). No "wolf bobblehead motion" if possible.

Say no to illusions especially when they have restrictions such as outdoor only and no bashing, etc.

#Wrath of the Wild

Everyone agrees this is a junk AA. Totally worthless. Change it to *something*, *anything* ...wrath of Boboo would atleast be funny. This skill isn't even good for a laugh.

Basically, I think druids bring a lot to a group already. Our one unique ability, SotW, is awesome. It just needs the reuse timer reduced.

Also, be careful what you ask for. Do you really want another spell that is 1. very restricted on what you can do with it (stacking, animal only, etc.) and 2. has a super long recast time? I would stay clear of anything like that, even if it would put us into GOD mode for 15 mins.

Sodi Flamemaker
06-06-2003, 08:38 PM
Well, it seems my cleric account got banned, as I am no longer allowed to post with it. Whatever. I can respect that. However, there is one thing that seriously needs to be addressed, so please bear with me.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr># Reduce reuse timer on SotW from 22 to 5-10min

I also agree with this, but anything less than 10 minutes would be overpowering. The heal over time itself doesn't do much for anyone. It certainly doesn't "heal" with the amount of hps everyone has these days, but the DS when stacked with other DS's does do quite a bit of dmg. So, it should have a longer reuse but not 22 mins. 10-12 minutes would be adequate.[/quote]

As was pointed out on EQ Clerics, it is believed that druids are comparing the 22 minute refresh timer on SotW to the 3 minute refresh timer on the cleric AA, Divine Arbitration. What you people are failing to understand is this...Divine Arbitraion does no actual HEALING. It simply moves the damage around to make group heals more effective. And at Rank 1 and Rank 2, there is a 20% and 10% penalty (respectively) to the damage it moves around. Which means it actually hurts the group alittle unless the cleric has Divine Arbitration trained up to the third rank.

Just to add alittle more for you to consider, SotW heals the about the same HPs in the same time as a cleric spell called Ethreal Elixer (SotW is actually alittle better, but close enough). The major differences are, Ethreal Elixer does not have any damage shield and costs the cleric 1000 mana to cast. Taking all this into consideration, do you really, honestly think SotW needs to be less than 22 minutes refresh?

I don't, and I'll tell you why. As a cleric, whose (pretty much) one and only job in a group is healing, I can tell you, once a MOB is slowed, there isn't a whole lot of healing going on. Most of the time, 1 CH per MOB is all it takes to keep the tank alive in exp zones like PoV and BoT. Usually, I nuke once (for a measly 1100 damage), CH the tank once, and the fight is over.

Take a tank, and a slower, add in a fast reset of a 1250 point group heal, and you would hardly need to spend any mana keeping the group alive. For a manaless heal, 6 people x 1250HPs / 22 minutes is already WAY more powerful than the one and only manaless heal clerics get. 1 person x 2000HPs / 72 minute refresh. And quite frankly, any group in most exp zones could have 2 or even 3 druids in the group, and just keep a rotation of who does the SotW. Then no one would ever have to cast an actual heal at all.

22 minutes is where this ability should be at. Short enough to make it useful, long enough to not make it too over powering.


Edit: Your walking a fine line atm with the Druids vs Clerics point. You have made some good points because I agree people shouldnt be asking for a lesser refresh on SotW because it will impact clerics too much and imho be overpowering because of its healing component however <strong>this is not a Druid vs Cleric discussion</strong>.

Please in future on this post direct your viewpoints on how a druid can be improved for grouping etc as the title says "ideas on the "new" druid" however I do understand where your coming from in your post. Just be carefull if you continue to post on this thread. - Tils

Belkram Marwolf
06-06-2003, 09:28 PM
What would happen if you made DoTs do ferocious damage in the same vein as HoTs?

Say you had a DoT that did 3500 over 7 ticks for 550 mana or similar higher octane ratios for fast damage that wouldnt agro as quickly as nukes. Would this bring your damage capabilities up and not cause serious agro issues? I know this is just a random set of numbers but use your imagination and realize what faster DoTs with a small time frame would do to help out Druid damage capabilities. Mobs die fast in PoP, so quicker DoTs would seem to be the obvious path to me without agro that would be lethal.

Just a thought.


Belkram Marrwolf

Quelm
06-06-2003, 10:12 PM
While we're making wishlists within the realm of the possible, here are a couple suggestions that wouldn't even be noticed by many folks other than PoP priests.

1) Increase the availability of certain focus items for priests: Anger/Fury of Ro/Druzzil/E'ci, Haste of Solusek, Focus of Solusek. Doing so would allow damage oriented druids more avenues to improve damage when mages aren't around. Currently, in the early tiers, INT casters hold a solid monopoly on such foci, with the exception of the Ceramic Rod of Storms.

2) Spell casting subtlety! I have more problems with agro in groups than mana, when in a damage/debuffing role.

3) Let rain spells kill. Winter's Storm is a great spell, but the no-killshot restriction can reduce the effectiveness by quite a bit.

4) Increase the stun duration on Storm's Fury. It would help druids fit into groups, providing more help with broken charms and resisted slows.

suggestions missed in the summary so far:

Buffs to increase Damage Mitigation and Damage Avoidance would be nice. Maybe this would mean just adding an AC component to a spell like Nature's Recovery, but possibly a new line of defense ability increasing buffs along the lines of Combat Stability and Combat Agility.

Re-evaluate the effectiveness of Enhanced/Viscid roots. Making them more reliable could give druids a useful role in groups.

duranstorm
06-06-2003, 10:30 PM
I do think that most of the things that i used to bring to a group have been outdated.

DSes and regens used to be useful on mobs that hit for 1-200 and had 5-10k hps, now they hit for 600+ and have 20+k hps... and the fact that slow is almost required makes DSes even less useful.

if a pull or fight went bad before, i'd usually have a chance to evac a group... now a bad pull or some unlucky resists/interupts usually just kill people, and even if i save some people we still have to have deal with the CR

half the time, when i'm in a group, i'm healing now... and sometimes it works fine, but a few slow resists and fast heals on the sham/enc and it hurts my mana... slowed mobs hitting tanks i can deal with... but my mana is drained quickly when things get a bit hairy.

Harmony have been replaced by pacify

what to do about this? i don't know.

upping DSes or regens effects raids alot too... DSes already do alot of DS on unslowable mobs... and higher regens mitagate AoEs

making the 75% heals a bit more efficient would help when i'm trying to build up mana from the spot heals you gotta throw sometimes.

A symbol line buff for 4-500hp or so would give us a bit more room to work with, and wouldn't step on cleric toes... maybe some atk or hp regen or something on it too.

reducing sotw reuse time would help, but it's a group helper... it wouldn't save the chanter/sham/whoever like divine arbitration does. but they do work really well together.

or maybe try to make the dps side a bit better...

a couple of 42 second dots would help... 60 seconds is a bit too long to be sure you are getting the full effect... quick casting would help too... and they don't have to stack with the longer ones. even shorter dots would be cool... keep the same overall dps, just be able to get the full effect out of them in an exp group.

nukes that are a bit quicker... and some way to deal with the agro so you can nuke a bit more. or just less agro on the debuffs like Hand of Ro.

the adding procs, and crit enhancers add dps to the game that isn't there now, so i don't know if that a good idea... maybe though

almost every other class has a role in the game: Wars, pallies, Sks are tanks, rangers, monks, rogues are melee damage... bst is damage with some nifty other stuff, enc and sham are CC, wiz, mage, necro are caster damage

druids and bards are the jack-of-all-trades... and bard thrives because they can do everything and have some special stuff... they can slow, mez, charm, haste, mana regen, only overhasters, rizlona's is awesome, add to melee damage significantly, huge DSes, add to resists, and more...

druids just heal 2nd rate, do damage 2nd or 3rd rate, do some CC with root... we don't do everything, and we don't really have anything special. There is nothing that a group says "Wow, now that we have a druid we have _____" we can fill in and help, but we have a limited set of 2nd-3rd rate abilites and nothing special.

not like before when i could often ok healing, ok nukage boosted by DS damage, regens that ment something and really helped with healing, and the safetly of evacs, not to mention the convience of movement.

hope it helps, sorry to repeat so much of what has been said before.

DS

Oldoaktree
06-07-2003, 12:25 AM
I am in favor of the change, to start with.

Bear in mind that a very similar ability that BL get (Paragon of the Spirits) has a faster refresh time, and it does equivalent healing (200 for 6 ticks), and grants mana to boot (80 for 6 ticks). The argument that this somehow invalidates cleric healing abilities doesn't really hold water for me.

There simply is no comparison between a spell that you can cast at any time and an ability with a fixed reset.

Surely the SOTW refresh could be made to at least match the BL one, which I believe is currently 15 minutes, instead of our 22.

Tenidina Wyndrunner
06-07-2003, 05:22 AM
I know this might seem silly, but when I am healer for my group sometimes a group heal would be nice, not asking for something along the lines of what a cleric has, but something that does some healing for everyone to maybe help things along, can be an instant heal or a HOT.

Divina
06-07-2003, 06:00 AM
There seems to be some people that are just taking advantage of the situation to try to get their desires through, instead of posting ideas that will help druids get groups.

Things like a "self-only rez" are not going to do anything to help druids get groups.

The SotW will not help druids get groups, most people don't even know druids get it. So what does it matter to them if the reuse timer is lowered.

As far as "Animal only <insert term>", I thought it was general consenses that there was not enough animals. So what does asking for animal only stuff do?

Crits on TR and KR, while I agree that they should work... having them crit will not help druids get groups.

On harmony vs lull, while I would not mind a lull that worked inside. Remember that HoN is a level 29 spell, costs 100 mana, and casts in 2.5 secs (compared with 62/65, 350 mana, and 4.5 sec casting time of pacification).

I know this is just brainstorming, but don't forget the goal is to help druids get groups - not turning druids into GMs.

Menien Mayhem
06-07-2003, 06:19 AM
Some ideas that I've seen above (only skimmed through, so this might be a total repeat and if so, thowwy) were also mirrored on my guild's board. I want to bring over some improvement suggestions that I liked from a few of us in my guild made. Two of them (Mashesta and Ganlaan) have already posted their ideas here so I won't repeat those.

My thoughts:

For adding DPS, I would like to see our magic nukes and stuns not resisted so easily. They don't need to be upped in damage, just more effective! Similarly with cold nukes though not resisted as easily as the latter.

Nature's Recovery regen needs a fix. The recast delay sucks, making it almost useless. And if your target runs OOR then you still have the 1+ minute recast delay, very dumb. Take this out and you'll have a good spell for your puller or the tank taking big damage before slows land.

Our AOE snare and root needs fixed also. Distance and duration is too short, resists too much, and damage needs removed from the aoe root. Due to all of this, the two spells - like NR - basically very seldom if at all get used.

Druid line spells of xxxCoat should also be single and/or group target spells, add that extra AC and dmg shield to everyone you choose, stackable with all buffs.


Guildmates ideas I like:
1: 50% animal slow at whatever lvl the necro's get their undead slow.....

2: Damage shields, DS used to make or break a mob now it's just "meh"

and also -

the first thing that must change is the damn druid regen spell. Make it stack with 10th ring and I will start hating druids less.

Give druids an attack buff. Thats what exp groups want, attack buffs.


<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=150356" target="top">Menien Mayhem - Storm Warder</a>

<a href="http://eq.forgedsouls.org/index.html" target="top">Forged Souls - The 7th Hammer</a>

Tuppen FV
06-07-2003, 06:21 AM
Amen Divina.

It seems to me that many suggestions offered for consideration, while well intentioned, are failing to realize how powerful such changes would make the soloing druid.

I don't see many of these ideas being seriously considered by SoE because they would make the soloing druid far too powerful.

The unfortunate reality may be that the player who prefers to be a grouping druid has chosen the wrong class if he or she wants to be highly desired by groups.

Belkram Marwolf
06-07-2003, 06:24 AM
What would happen if you spent 500 mana for a 2 minute regen with 150 per tick healed?

You would get 3600 points healed for close to zero agro. Kinda like the DoT retool I suggested, it would pack more bang for the buck and compliment already existing abiliites in subtle ways. Would probably have to label the spell as a Heal over time for stacking purposes so it wont stack well with Cleric HoTs. However I think this is one of the things you want to address anyway I think.

Random numbers for the most part, but other possibilities would be 600mana for 200 per tick or 4800 healed over 2 minutes. Or say 100 per tick for 4 minutes for 4800 healed for say 400 mana. Using a sliding rule this could be a new spell type that would add some safety to Druid healing to make it even more viable than it is currently.

Belkram Marrwolf

Kaenneth
06-07-2003, 06:31 AM
"
Damage shields
Problem: NPC hit amount hyperinflation has killed the utility of damage shields while massively increasing the utility of slow. We used to be able to "return" 30% of the attacker's damage; now we're lucky to return 5%.
Solution: The expansion should have NPCs that hit for much less damage (per hit), but at a lower attack delay or perhaps with more attacks.
"

One solution in the mage boards is to make a percentage based damage shield, that for example, returns 10% of what the mob hits for.

duranstorm
06-07-2003, 07:17 AM
again... making DSes and regens more effective would be great for exp groups... but they effect raids alot too.

high regen help offset AEs... if we had a 150/tick regen, that would more of a help in healing AE damage on raids then in just an exp group.

a 10% might be ok on a mob that hits for 600... but what about one that hits for 2k? DSes already do alot of dps on raid mobs... increasing them just makes them more powerful there. and even if you say cap it at something... well it's it's capped at 60 or 80... why not just give us a 60 or 80 pt ds? still increases the DS dps on raids a good bit.

like i said above... i can usually heal the steady state in pop groups, it's when things get a little hairy that i tend to struggle either mana-wise or lack of tools to deal with it.

we either need to be a viable alternative to clerics (we sorta are atm, but not quite), or a viable damage class (again sorta), or really be a jack of all trades with special stuff like bards.

DS

Aldarion Shard
06-07-2003, 07:36 AM
i could see the addition of 2 spell lines making druids more noticable contributions to a goup, from a melee standpoint (but of course I have to say again, I ALREADY find druids amazingly useful) - my goal - to keep druids in their unique role, rather than taking someone elses. After reading this you may ask "why not just add 1 spell that does all these effects at once?"

my answer - spell slots, agro management, and timing. in short, doing something using several spells will be easy for skilled players and less easy for the unskilled. thus its not a god spell.

<strong>new spell line 1 - Curse of the Hummingbird</strong>

(background: mobs do damage according to the formula:
damage = (Random 1 20) X DI + DB )

When cast on an NPC this spell reduces BOTH DI and DB by 50% - that is, each hit will be exactly half of what it was prior to the spell. However, the NPC also attacks FASTER now, as if under the effects of a 35% Haste spell.

This spell does not stack with Slow spells, and many unslowable raid targets will be flagged immune to it. (easiest way to code this - make this spell "technically" count as a slow, for stacking/immune checks.)

End result - mob DPS is reduced by 32.5% ... but this damage is coming in the form of FASTER, but SMALLER, hits.

<strong>new spell line 2 - Shield of the Storm</strong>

This extremely short duration (ca. 1-2 minute) spell acts as a stackable "damage shield", stacking with most commonly used DS's. When an NPC attacks the player affected by this buff, it takes (druid level/2) damage. (e.g. 33 points for a lvl 65 druid).

_____________________________________________

Combine these two spells with Ro's, and druids would have the ability to:

put a 73 point damage shield on the tank
reduce mob dps by ca. 40% (Hummingbird + Ro's)
reduce max hit
enhance the effectiveness of their damage shields
(final damage shield dps estimated at about 40 dps)
[edit - I stand corrected. dps would be closer to 73]

...thoughts?

duranstorm
06-07-2003, 07:43 AM
wait... a 73pt dps on a 35% hasted mob is only gonna do 40dps? you might wanna look at that again... a 35% hasted mob will only hit the tank once every 2 seconds? i think alot of people underestimate the damage done by DSes

DS

Synapticus Asterius
06-07-2003, 07:44 AM
1) % base DS that stacks with mage DS. Allows our the effectiveness of our DS to scale with the difficulty of the mob.

2) Modify our Swarm series to be more be quicker acting to look more like swarming death.
for example, winged death costing 350 mana does 143hp/tick for 9 tick = 1287HP
Maybe modifiy it to 215HP/Tick for 6 ticks instead, also for 350 mana.

3) Druids are a priest class, and should be able to keep someone alive. A druid cannot efficiently function as a main healer in any decent XP group from the low 40s until level 58, where as all other priests have the tools to do so. Perhaps another % based heal/big heal is needed somewhere in between, like a lvl49 or lvl51 75% heal that has a 2k max to it.

4) Playing an SK that partners with a druid, I don't really see a noticeable difference when she hits it with disjuction or hand or ro. Maybe have Atk debuff a % of a mob's atk, instead of a fixed number, and I think it <em>should</em> stack with shaman slow.

5) Make PotX stack with symbol, bravery series, guard series and focus series.

I don't think these changes would benefit a solo druid much, and would contribute to a druid's usefulness in group, yet not cause too much of a balance issue.

Aldarion Shard
06-07-2003, 07:47 AM
Heres my assumptions for that figure.

base attack rate of 2 seconds.
double attack skill fires off 50% of the time.
60% of the swings hit the tank. (others miss/riposte/etc.)
add 35% haste to that.

and .. I messed up haha. Final dps using these figures is 73 dps. Im a warrior, my math is not so good =)

Rheims
06-07-2003, 08:16 AM
A couple of more suggestions, since we were asked to think of creative solutions:

When there is no shaman around, it usually falls to the druid in my experience to strength buff the melees. With only a single target strength buff this can take a long time and mana, especially on raids. A group strength buff would help us, I for one would really appreciate such a spell, a group version of our Nature's Might line.

Secondly, making our self buff thorncoat line a group spell would also help. It would give us a nice ac buff to add to groups when no cleric is around.

Note that neither of these suggestions will improve the power of druids in a solo situation, they would only help them help their groups.

Glynna1
06-07-2003, 08:39 AM
Definitely something that makes us stand out for a group is needed. As someone else indicated just about every other class has something that overwrites what we can do making us less desireable.

1) DA would be nice since heals can cause big agro. Especially if you are the primary healer.

2)Some defining ability or spell that does make us wanted. Not necessarily instead of another class but in addition to.

3)Tired of toy spells. Make Boo Boo into a killing machine. He never was/has been necessary.

WyteNK
06-07-2003, 08:48 AM
<strong>Absor said... </strong>
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Many of you seem to think that a druid is a good addition to a PoP group. But you're saying that people don't want you in groups.

What is the reason that they don't want you?

What can we possibly do, based on your response, to overcome that?
[/quote]

The solution seems <strong>blindingly</strong> obvious, in a "Hey, that crazy idea might just work" sort of way:

<strong>Give Druids an ability that scales as more group members are added. Sort of how the charm slots work. </strong>

... or it could read:

<strong>Enhance a Druid ability that they already have as more group members are added. </strong>

It would do NOTHING to enhance soloing. That's the obvious solution... now as to exactly <strong>what</strong> the ability would be, lemme think.

- Some kind of karana's soothing rain group spell, 6 hp/6 mana regen with 6 people.

- Personal thorns (the coat line) channels enemy hits into mana for the Druid, moreso with more group members, scaling with the amount being hit for. This balances with the fact that we typically don't want to be hit, especially in PoP.

- Shorter recast on SoTW depending on number of group members.

- Damage shields multiply in power as more group members are added.

Maybe some of the Druids that tend to solo more would go out and LOOK for a group.

<strong>As an aside, please add this: </strong>
NO Content should be completely dependent on a SINGLE class for access IMO. The new Plane of Hate is such content.


Wyte

Dikmer
06-07-2003, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Bear in mind that a very similar ability that BL get (Paragon of the Spirits) has a faster refresh time, and it does equivalent healing (200 for 6 ticks), and grants mana to boot (80 for 6 ticks). The argument that this somehow invalidates cleric healing abilities doesn't really hold water for me.[/quote]
True, the abilities are similar. But you don't see beastlords request that be reduced from 15 minutes to 5 minutes. 15 minutes (or in the case of SotW, 22 minutes) makes it a nice, "when you can do it", sort of thing. 5 minutes makes it a "rely on it for group healing" sort of thing. Do you really want sich an AA ability to become so easily used and abused that druids who DON'T have it can't get a group? 22 minutes for a manaless group heal is good. Anything less makes it too powerful.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There simply is no comparison between a spell that you can cast at any time and an ability with a fixed reset.[/quote]
Ok, let's look at this from a different point of view. Instead of reducing the refresh on SotW, would giving you a group heal SPELL, 1250 point heal over time, added damage shield, added AC, but make it cost you 1100 or 1200 mana instead? Then your group healing capabilities are dramatically increased, making you more desireable in a group. Would this be an acceptable alternative?

Most of you who are asking for the reduction in SotW aren't seeing past the ability to see how powerful that would make you. Some of you are seeing what kind of impact this request would be, and are against this sort of change. This is what I am trying to get across to the rest of you.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Surely the SOTW refresh could be made to at least match the BL one, which I believe is currently 15 minutes, instead of our 22.[/quote]

Shrug. Maybe. But then again, will such a change really make you more desireable in a group, or are you simply trying to squeeze out some more power for your class in general?

You want some ideas on how to be more useful to a group, then maybe the thing to do would be to go to other class boards and ask THEM what they think druids bring to a group, and ask THEM what they think druids lack that they should be given to help. I think you'd be surprised but what you get if you do that.

Demasia
06-07-2003, 09:31 AM
1. <strong>Add 20% Slow to Ensnare</strong>: Stacking with all other Slows so that it complements Shaman, Enchanter, Beast and/or bards in group. This won't enable druids to replace slowers, but will enable druids to more effectively heal in those groups. The Slow component should be no more resistable than the Ensnare is and should be checked seperately against mobs immune to Ensnare. If it was deeemed necccessary to add even more Taunt, then don't even bother.

2. <strong>Reduce exp loss of death to 5-8% of what it is now</strong>: Cleric and pally rezzes would still have obvious advantages without having to share their ability. But, not getting a rez would have it's own advantages. A rez would become more circumstantial instead of essential.

3. <strong>Pack Natureskin</strong>: Same duration as Blessing of Aego. 800 Hit Point buff that is classified like symbols. Cost of 4 peris. Level 60 druid spell only. Might add in a negative 3-5 mana regen to offset the mana regen benefits of using only druid hit point buffs and to keep it balanced. Change the single version Natureskin to the same effect.

Voronus
06-07-2003, 09:58 AM
How about an AA that makes a 10% chance or so for the cast time on our spells to be reduced to 0. This would provide a small chance for a heal or a critical nuke to go off as soon as you press the cast button.

Also an AA that increases the attack of our pet by 500% or something. It would have to have a fairly long recast time such as an hour.

Just a couple of ideas.

Profundox
06-07-2003, 10:29 AM
<em>Comments moved</em>

Fayne Dethe
06-07-2003, 11:53 AM
Divina, some of the suggestions you said wont help druids get groups actually will.

Healing Gift working on Karana Renewal will help druid get groups because group members will see big heal numbers with the crits. Alot of people have the mindset that druids cant be a main healer in a group and seeing the big crit numbers would help get rid of that. By the same token, KR needs its mana cost lowered some so druids wont be going OOM as fast when grouped. The spell cost is set way too high, and its often more efficient to use TR which would give smaller crits - its all a matter of perception of what other group members see, most people only pay attention to damage/healing crits.

Also, Spirit of the Wood being lowered to a 5 or 6 minute re-use would help alot in druids getting groups. At 22 minutes, no one knows what spirit of wood is cause it can be used so rarely while grouped. Even 15 minute re-use wouldnt be noticeable like Paragon of Spirit since Spirit of Wood doesnt give any mana - all that mana is why Paragon cant be faster than 15 minute to be balanced ;p. Having it be 5-6 minute re-use wouldnt be imbalancing and groups would notice the extra ac/damage shield along with the healing since it can be used every couple mobs. To counteract the much faster re-use, give the AA ability a 3 second cast time so you cant run along and click it so it doesnt help as much when soloing. I think removing the instant cast time would be the only way Sony would reduce the re-use time this much.

Maybe on the bullet list Stormhaven has, it should be mentioned to make Spirit of the Wood around 5 or 6 minute re-use but add a 3 second casting time? I think 10 minutes is still too long of re-use time for people to notice it.

Kitsune Sama
06-07-2003, 12:41 PM
What about a damage shield that add'd agro to whomever was being hit? Would be nice for grouping, and raiding.

And change Wrath of the Wild to add agro as well. Would help us with the agro we create. With a 3 min reuse time it wouldnt be bad for that.

casualeq1
06-07-2003, 12:56 PM
Didnt read through the 5 pages but some ideas are

1. Decrease use time on Spirit of the wood to no more than 10-12 min.

2. Either increase damage size or reduce AA cost for Wrath of the Wild.

3. Mark more things as animals (even if some need to be marked uncharmable to compensate) and give druids an Animal only slow which would make more us viable to a group.

Balise
06-07-2003, 01:00 PM
I just saw this thread (busy summer = less time on the boards) and am unable to read the whole thing, so if anyone already mentioned this, Kudos to them :-)

Main thing with druids is that we have a variety of abilities that are less efficient/effective then the parent class (cleric, wizard, shaman).

That is fine, we have variety, but we are UNABLE to use that variety due to:

Problems
1) higher mana cost/ less efficient
2) Lots of agro / too much agro

those two problems cause druids to resort to one role in a group and possibly two depending on the other group members, how long the fights last, and what is absolutely needed.

A druid that is only healing is a baby cleric, a druid only nuking is a baby wizard, a druid only debuffing is a baby shaman.

SOLUTION

1) lower agro (by a good bit) and mana cost of our debuffs. They are already minimally affective so why not allow us to use them every fight without worrying about keeping mana up for healing or one of our other more affective abilities.

and

2) agro lowering spell, like concussion or something for obvious reasons as stated above

OR

3) lower agro on all spells. maybe a bit drastic, but these spells are less efficient/affective then the spells held by the parent class so they should cause less agro.

Those three solutions would allow a druid to cast debuffs at the begining of the fight (which are minimally affective), heal in an emergency (and not get agro right away), and do damage. All those things are what make up a druid so we should be able to contribute somewhat in all those abilities in a normal group instead of getting regulated to one role due to either not enough mana or too much agro.

Divina
06-07-2003, 02:02 PM
Fayne

Do you know how powerful SotW is?

Lets look at what it has the potential of being...

Spirit of the Wood ( level 3 )

Increase Hitpoints v2 by 250 per tick
Increase Damage Shield by 55
Increase AC by 48

5 ticks
Reuse timer: 22 mins
Casting Time: Instant
Target Type : Group (MGB-able)

That is 1250 hp per person. In a group of 6, that is 7500 hp healed. Over an hour ( on average ) that is ~ 20 455 hp healed.

Lets look at some of the other classes mana-free heals. (Lets assume max AAs)

_____________________________

Beastlords:

Paragon of Spirit:

Increase Hitpoints by 200 per tick
Increase Mana by 80 per tick

6 ticks
Reuse timer: 15 mins
Casting Time: 5 seconds
Target Type : Group (MGB-able)

That is 1200 hp per person. In a group of 6, that is 7200 hp healed. Over an hour ( on average ) that is ~ 28 800 hp healed.

_____________________________

Paladins:

Laying on Hands

Increase Hitpoints by 10 000

Instant
Reuse timer: 36 mins
Casting Time: Instant
Target Type : Single

That is 10 000 hp per person. Over an hour ( on average ) that is ~ 16 667 hp healed.

Hand of Piety

Increase Hitpoints by 1250

Instant
Reuse timer: 72 mins
Casting Time: Instant
Target Type : Group (Not MGB-able)

That is 1250 hp per person. In a group of 6, that is 7500 hp healed. Over an hour ( on average ) that is ~ 6 250 hp healed.

_____________________________

Clerics:

Celestial Regeneration

Increase Hitpoints by 800 per tick

4 ticks
Reuse timer: 72 mins
Casting Time: Instant
Target Type : Single

That is 3200 hp per person. Over an hour ( on average ) that is ~ 2 667 hp healed.

Divine Arbitration

Balance Party Health

Instant
Reuse timer: 3 mins
Casting Time: 1 sec
Target Type : Group (Not MGB-able)

This skill does not technically heal, it steals health from some member(s) and gives to another - net heal is 0. If not used correctly the skill can be more devestating then if the spell was not casted at all.
_____________________________

While I will agree that we need to be balenced more in line with beastlords. We do have a real nice skill in SotW.

Divina
06-07-2003, 02:51 PM
What I would like to see...

A buff that increases the amount of damage, DD spells do by 10% (make the spell last 45 mins).

A buff that increases the amount of healing, healing spells do by 10% (make the spell last 45 mins).

A buff that increases the duration of buffs by 10% (make the spell last 45 mins).

These would help in small amounts when soloing but would help alot when grouping.

Seriena
06-07-2003, 02:58 PM
<em>Originally posted by KittenPawTZ:</em>

I'm against stepping on the clerics toes, or any other class for that matter. A pale imitation of a cleric res, or a bad copy of a shaman slow would do nothing for our "desirability" in groups.

However, what if, instead of "stealing" an ability of another class, we became able to enhance it ?

Paladin 90% res + druid short duration enhancement casted on the paladin (30 seconds) -> 96% res

Beastlord/Bard 50% slow + druid short duration enhancement casted on the Beastlord/Bard (30 seconds) -> 60/70% slow

More combinations might be found, without ever exceeding what a single class is best at.

In my little humble opinion, this would be a viable option to increase the desirability of many more classes than just druids, finally replace the dogma of the "Holy Trinity" (Cleric, Shamans, Warrior) without breaking *any* of the game mechanics, and reward the druids that are group friendly (it has obviously no advantages when soloing).

What do you think ?

Glarnor
06-07-2003, 04:11 PM
I like the idea of enhancing other peoples spells, but please, please, no short-duration on buffs you have to maintain all the time. It'll just be a huge annoyance. Make it at least 10-15 minutes.

Audrie
06-07-2003, 04:20 PM
Here are my thoughts. Every priest class has a specialty:

Cleric -- heals and buff
Shaman -- slow and buff (the other type)

And then we come to druids:
Druid -- %base damage shield and melee DPS increaser.

The effect of this is pretty similar to the shammy slow except the other way around.

For the melee DPS increaser, we would get a combination of two types:
- Bonus to damage directly.
- And added procs to weapon similar to what the BST can do to his pet.

I think these ideas would be a great adition to our presence in groups. I would also agree that some sort of 93% rez with some sort of component like the necro line would be great. It could be similar to sacrifice.

brum15
06-07-2003, 04:49 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>2. Reduce exp loss of death to 5-8% of what it is now: Cleric and pally rezzes would still have obvious advantages without having to share their ability. But, not getting a rez would have it's own advantages. A rez would become more circumstantial instead of essential.[/quote]

bad. only viable if they removed all bad effects of getting a rez. ie no rez effects and all buff which you may have gotten before the rez in the nexus remained or maybe even return you with all the buffs you had before you died. Otherwise with only losing 5% of what people currently do would make getting a rez a disadvantage. It would only take 3-5 minutes to make up the exp in POP if you did not get the rez whereas running back to nexus to get the buffs (KEI etc and we all know everyone does this) would take 5-10 minutes. Also would make our epic useless. That would be like making druids epic dot only do a total of 50 points of damage. They would have to exchange our epic effect for a nuke which did as much damage as your epic's dot.

Heck an idea here would be leave rez as is but for the cleric to cast a rez on the person and then for druids to have a spell called "restore". "restore" could get rid of rez effects and return all predeath buffs. Talk about getting raids back on track and saving buffing mana.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Add 20% Slow to Ensnare[/quote]

good. dont understand why ensnare would not slow them. The same roots and branches slowing their feet would be tangling their arms.

. <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Pack Natureskin: Same duration as Blessing of Aego. 800 Hit Point buff that is classified like symbols. Cost of 4 peris. Level 60 druid spell only. Might add in a negative 3-5 mana regen to offset the mana regen benefits of using only druid hit point buffs and to keep it balanced. Change the single version Natureskin to the same effect[/quote]

good. I also appreciate the realizing balance by adding in neg mana regen. All in all demasia-I like the way you are going.

good. Damage shield upgrades

good. AA and focus working with all your heals

good. 90% self only rez and lesser rez for others. Even 90% rez for people in animal form

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>DA would be nice since heals can cause big agro. Especially if you are the primary healer[/quote]

good. Since I would not have to worry about my main healer druid dying or my assist druid healer dying when they heal me

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Tired of toy spells. Make Boo Boo into a killing machine. He never was/has been necessary[/quote]

good. boo boo is close to useless now

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Secondly, making our self buff thorncoat line a group spell would also help. It would give us a nice ac buff to add to groups when no cleric is around.[/quote]

good. long duration ds added to regular ds

On the issue of spirit of wood. decrease in time to 10 minutes-would definitely make it many more times powerful then clerics-however this is not a clerics healing (ie once every 72 minutes=most of the 3200 hps will be wasted on the majority of the group and then you cant use again for 72 minutes) strength and maybe they could add in mana regen for an extended time on clerics to compensate. Maybe play with the numbers somewhere here to find an equitable solution. It is kind of funny that beastlords beat you and us out here.

Currently over an hour your aa ability and ours heals about the same amount per person. You have the advantage of adding mana regen and ac. Most of our healing will be wasted on non tank members however we have spells to fill in gaps. However we get less effect for the same aa's just as currently you get less effect for your healing aa's than we do. SOE should fix those issues.

brum15
06-07-2003, 04:55 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Heck an idea here would be leave rez as is but for the cleric to cast a rez on the person and then for druids to have a spell called "restore". "restore" could get rid of rez effects and return all predeath buffs. Talk about getting raids back on track and saving buffing mana[/quote]

or if SOE says it would be impossible for code to tell which buffs existed pre death. restore could get rid of the rez effects and then cast a buff on the person which caused all spells in the next five minutes cast on that person to cost 50%. This spell could be set to work only on people that were under rez effects.

Scirocco
06-07-2003, 05:18 PM
<strong>Tired of toy spells. Make Boo Boo into a killing machine. He never was/has been necessary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
good. boo boo is close to useless now</strong>


Boo Boo was NEVER meant to be useful. The spell was always a toy given to us for fun only. SOE would just as soon take the spell away rather than have druids constantly asking for Boo Boo to improved.

"Don't like Boo Boo being a toy spell? Fine. No Boo Boo, period."

Dikmer
06-07-2003, 08:27 PM
Very nice comparison, however, there is one error in your #'s.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Laying on Hands
Increase Hitpoints by 10 000
Instant
Reuse timer: 36 mins
Casting Time: Instant
Target Type : Single

That is 10 000 hp per person. Over an hour ( on average ) that is ~ 16 667 hp healed.[/quote]

Lay on Hands recycles once per game day. (72 minutes)
LoH will heal approximately 30 hitpoints per level of the Caster. E.G. 300 hitpoints at level 10, 1500 hitpoints at level 50, and 1950 at level 65. Assuming level 65, a 1950 LoH every 72 minutes is an average of 1625 per hour.

Tierleaf
06-07-2003, 09:33 PM
One thing I could never understand is why Rangers were given group attack buffs, yet the parent wasn't given a more powerful version.


I think giving Druids a slightly more powerful version of the call of predator line would make them more attractive to groups.

More situational spells such as an animal slow might be a good idea.

If Developers want to increase the desirability of druids perhaps future dungeon design and mob attributes might want to be considered.

For example making a mob that flurries quickly for a moderate to low ammount of damage would increase the usefulness of damage shields, without taking the risk out of encounters.

Or perhaps they could include a larger number of plant based creatures and a fairly good debuff/damage/charm line of spells.

Fayne Dethe
06-07-2003, 09:36 PM
About Spirit of Wood, it doesnt make sense to have a 22 minute re-use time, and needs to be significantly shortened to be useful in xp groups. Paragon gives mana - that means a short re-use time would give way too much free mana. As for clerics, they have a number of good group heals that they can immediately recast, and Divine Arbitration is one of the best manaless group "heals" (yes not a true heal) as its completely aggro free and very short re-use time.

It's rather strange that SotW is 7 minute longer re-use time than Paragon of Spirit when paragon is a so much more powerful ability and can be MGB'ed just like SotW. If the reason for the 22 minute recast on SotW is the instant cast time, give it a cast length similar to group heals/paragon, ie, somewhere b/w 3-5 seconds. With that, a re-use time of under 10 minutes doesnt seem unfair.


As for some sort of negative mana modifier for turning natureskin into a symbol - that seems rather unnecessary as long as Natureskin costs a peridot like cleric symbols, and the amount of hitpoints Natureskin would give is made inferior to Marzin (l 54 cleric symbol that gives 640 (l 54) - 700 (l 60) hp). But I still think Natureskin should keep its 4 hp regen, so as to make it a more druid-centric version of symbol and would at least have some aspect to it that people might consider using it over kazad, although at a loss of alot of hitpoints (kazad gives 910 hp). So make Natureskin something like 570 (l 57) - 630 (l 65) hp plus 4 hp regen. This would help in groups as tanks will have less hitpoints than if they used virtue or potn/kazad combo, but still enough to let them tank effectively (prot of 9 is rather inadequate by itself).

FyyrLuStorm
06-07-2003, 10:02 PM
I have been a proponent of a Freeze spell(line) for aons.

It is not out of character of what we do already, we control the cold of Nature.

Would be good as a group or raid spell.

ps, I did not read the rules first.

SuburbanLife
06-07-2003, 10:31 PM
I have one idea thats in my head right now, I will edit my post if I think of anymore..

<strong>1 - Give druids some sort of haste spell</strong>

I don't think this idea is so wild, crazy, or unbalancing to the game. If SoE is worried about combining that with charming make the two not stack. I would say somewhere in the haste range between the enchanters 68% and the shamans 50%, lets say 60% haste. As far as it being group or single target, maybe have incarnations of both.

I personally feel that SoE would never in any way give druids anything but an animal only slow. The sad part of this is in PoP you <strong>NEED</strong> a frikking slower for the majority of mobs because they hit like an 18-wheeler (while I have never been hit with one I can imagine it feels like PoP mobs.) I feel that if we were given a haste spell it wouldn't intrude upon anyone's ground and make druids more group viable, at least if there isn't an enchanter around......

FyyrLuStorm
06-08-2003, 12:07 AM
I am sorry, but I think the idea of an animal slow is just plain foolish.

We already know, how rare animals are these days. And if you can charm it,,why the hell do you need to slow it? So why bother?

I am liking the old idea of 'Summon Group' much, much better these days.

Hell, if it was on the drawing board a year ago, there may still be some chalk up on it.

Who knows?


Asking for animal slows in anti-climactic. Unless you can voice some real reason to burn those SOE chits on it, please drop it.

palamin
06-08-2003, 12:09 AM
I was kicking around a few ideas when i was thinking of this thread as I occasionally browse these forums.

The problem with druids now is we have no class defining abilities. So I came up with this idea below that should mix it up allittle. Although as you can see below the abilities are more melee oriented which would scare lots of people who ordinarily consider druid's to be now melee oriented.

Basically druids were in mythology were able to shapeshift into many forms and gain abilities of animals things in nature, etc. In everquest it is more like earth, air, fire, water, swarms of bees and charming animals .

This idea is to give spells to druids with self only and fairly long recasting time or some way to balance being able to have a permanent "illusion" till you either zone or die or whatever.

Earthen spirit: Gain 75 ac 200hp Frequent procs of up to an 75% slow that last approximately 20-30 seconds, with a low resist low aggro rate. This should be interesting if implemented and would solve our slow problem.

Wind's Wisdom: Turn into an owl, Gain ablities levi, 10 mana a tick regen, 200 mana. Non stackable with sow but run speed 3 ability should work. Only problem with this idea here would be it would be used for soloing instead of group oriented like I am intending.

Raging waters: proc group rune 500 or so fairly often, moderate aggro, gain ability double attack or something else.

Anyways just kicking around a few ideas. If we all work together when can get something really neat to solve the non grouping thing and maybe redefine our class alittle.

edit to add this below left it out on accident

Fire form<no decent name for it:| Gain ability double or <triple attack might be interesting>,+200 attack, Proc blast of fire, maybe a 300 hit point fire based nuke moderate aggro. This should help the Dps department.

Cantatus
06-08-2003, 01:15 AM
I honestly don't think a form of animal slow would help Druids get groups easier. To begin with, animal mobs are few and far in between. No group would get a Druid just so they could kill animals. It'd be impossible in every PoP zone except for maybe PoStorms. Secondly, slow generates a lot of aggro. Druids do not have an aggro reducing spell (to my knowledge).

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>However, what if, instead of "stealing" an ability of another class, we became able to enhance it ?[/quote]

Honestly, this is something I always felt the game lacked. It'd be interesting if certain class combonations in groups yielded various results. For instance, sticking a Wizard with a Warrior would up the rate of critical hits for both. If a Magician groups with a Druid, their pet becomes stronger against animals and the Druid's nukes become stronger against summoned creatures.

It's probably a hard thing to program, but it'd definetly give rise to some less than conventional groups as well as giving classes that have a harder chance getting groups more appeal. In the example above, the Warrior (who would have an easier time getting a group) would be more inclined to invite a Wizard over a Ranger into the group because it'd benefit them both more.

TeriMoon
06-08-2003, 02:32 AM
Ok, we already have so many freaking spells and spells lines that its almost a joke. I don't feel we need a lot. The thing that keeps us from getting groups as a healer is the lack of rez. The thing that keeps us from getting groups who need dps is the lack of DC animals and the relatively low size of our nuke crits (coupled with the high agro they cause when one has to debuff in order to get them to land).

I am satisfied with my utility. I realize we are never going to have a class defining ability. We make up for that in versatility. Problem came in when SOE 1. didn't appeal healing crits to our two biggest heals, and 2. Gave us weak PoP nuke upgrades in comparison to other classes.

I dont' want any new spells. I'd like a few useful AA ideas.

We need healing gift to work with all our healing spells
SotW is not ideal at 22 minutes refresh
I don't want a rez, that would be foolish, but I liked someone else's idea of making rezzes more readily available to other classes so that there could be more useful grouping arrangements. I particularly liked the thought of doing something with the necro rez to make it a bit less costly to use. Might help a necro get a group (with a druid). This idea is something that really works for me.

On the DPS side, a subtlety effect would be nice. A <em>small</em> adjustment in nuke sizing would not be unwelcome. Any way to get more DC animals? I notice there are rodents in about every starting city now. Must be a lot of garbage in Felwithe...Might be a parallel with BoT....lots of fungus drops there...don't rats eat fungus, too?

Rexlar
06-08-2003, 03:27 AM
Well a wizard's point of view here.

A faster nuke - clearing up to a boss mob a 6+ sec nuke is too slow. Also, in group, you need that fast DD to pull a mob off someone, set it to flee, or to get back toi medding. If DPS is the concern put a long recast on it like Ice Spear

Healing AA should work on druid heals. Period

SotW - Faster recycle like 10-12 minutes but too fast is overpowering. Ask some test druids about the time they could insta-recast it

Chance to crit in-line with a Wizard/Mage. While the idea of bigger crits is fine I see two issues with the proposal.
1. The AA cost was too low. Did you know after I get done buying SCF for 12 points I buy SCFM for 18 and FOMM for 12. So spending 2/4/6 AAs to get a sure fire crit seems too cheap.
2. Taking the randomness out of crits even at double mana. On lots of Boss mobs I have mana leftover - if I could buy double damage at double mana and no extra aggro I would pay a ton of AAs.

SCS - available - Absolutely

A fire or ice proc on a weapon would be cool. Have both available based on mob's resists

Port a group to Druid's bind. Well Wizards have been asking for this forever since its an extension of Translocate but can you just imagine the potential for abuse?

Res at 80-90%. Works for me but I play on a low population server so adding anyone to the res pool is good. How about a 50% res where you come back with 75% health and mana. Talk about a raid/deep dungeon crawl saver. Or make a real raid saver and go 50% exp, 50% mana/health and make the res box last 20 minutes. Raid wipes, druid get off a res or two on an epic cleric, monks FD, mobs go home, Cleric accepts res and get raid back on target

Mana DPS - why should we only get hps back? SK, Pallys, Rangers heck even clerics would love this.

I am unsure how to handle lack of a slower in a group so I will leave that one alone but I will say with exp changes on Test you can go to non-pop zones and have fun/exp without a slower. You wont make PoP like exp but you will get some coin/loot drops for a change.

Rexlar
Wizard of Test Server

KittenPawTZ
06-08-2003, 03:41 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Honestly, this is something I always felt the game lacked. It'd be interesting if certain class combonations in groups yielded various results. For instance, sticking a Wizard with a Warrior would up the rate of critical hits for both. If a Magician groups with a Druid, their pet becomes stronger against animals and the Druid's nukes become stronger against summoned creatures.[/quote]

Exactly, and this was the core of my suggestion :

- <strong>no class can complain since no class looses anything</strong>, clerics are still the best at resses, alone, shamans are still the best at slows, alone, etc.
- when one class wasn't considered a satisfying replacement for another key class, with this system they would be an excellent replacement with a "complementary" class (druids + paladin = cleric, beastlord/bard + druid = shaman, etc.)
- none of the game mechanics are altered, improved or decreased, on the contrary, it is fun to explore all the combinations possible
- it is group friendly !

I really can't see any negative sides at what I suggested, and I also think it would alleviate MOST if not ALL complaints about finding groups for druids.

brum15
06-08-2003, 04:28 AM
OK ok this may be a really stupid idea but hear me out. It is late so have some pity.

Since snare is not really usable in pop and that was one of my favorite abilities, how about this to bring it back?

1. Have POP mobs run at a certain point in health.

2. If they manage to take a certain amount of steps, they gate. Hey it's fantasy--these things can happen.

3. Give druids a druid only charm for the charm slot that allows snare to work on mobs (that are normall unsnarable)and increases the percentage chance of working as the number of members in the group increases. ie 1 member = 0%, 2=25, 3=50, 4=75, 5 and 6 member is group = 100% or at least the same chance it has against regular mobs (I know even regular mobs can resist)

There are plenty of snarers in the game. But even if they did not have a snarer a group could root (meaning more damage to tanks as the mob stands and fights) or time a last minute nuke barage.

No one could argue about this increasing our soloing (0% with 1 in group), It makes what I think is one of our cool abilities worthwhile again, it cuts down damage in a druids group as the mob turns to run.

If this is too stupid of an idea, please delete it mods so I dont embarass myself too much.

Rheims
06-08-2003, 04:42 AM
I wish the 90% res would be taken off the WIP overview thread. It's not going to happen and only unnecessarily antagonizes other classes and makes druids look greedy when in fact it is only wanted by a small minority of druids.

Divina
06-08-2003, 04:48 AM
Just going to clarify a few things...

Dikmer

I said "(Lets assume max AAs)"

Paladins have 2 AA skills that improve LoH
1) that turns LoH into a 10k heal (Improved LoH)
2) that reduces the reuse timer by 12 mins per point (Fervent Blessing)

Fayne

As far as the strenght of Paragon of the Spirit, I see this as the defining move of the beastlords. Paragon is what makes beastlords useful on raids. Paragon also has a 5 sec casting time; while SotW has an instant casting time. SotW can be cast on the run or on a moments notice. What I was tring to point out is that it is a real nice skill right now.

But lets assume that we take the reuse timer down to 5 mins like you perviously said.

That is 1250 hp per person. In a group of 6, that is 7500 hp healed. Over an hour ( on average ) that is 90 000 hp healed, or 15 000 per person.

At a 10 min reuse timer it would be...

That is 1250 hp per person. In a group of 6, that is 7500 hp healed. Over an hour ( on average ) that is 45 000 hp healed, or 7 500 per person.

Then there would be no limiting factors to it...

Not mana cost
Not casting time

Glarnor
06-08-2003, 05:25 AM
As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, 50-57 druids are even worse off in the plane since their healing capabilities are so low, so try to avoid including AA's, in particularly 59-65 AAs to "fix" this.

Alyssea
06-08-2003, 07:10 AM
Id like to see TR/KR working with healing gift, reduce KR mana cost( it hurts sometimes ;) ) SotW recast time lowered, Group castable mask of the forest(stalker/hunter whatever :P ), and yes our nukes need a little love as well.

Aldane
06-08-2003, 07:19 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Boo Boo was NEVER meant to be useful. The spell was always a toy given to us for fun only. SOE would just as soon take the spell away rather than have druids constantly asking for Boo Boo to improved.

"Don't like Boo Boo being a toy spell? Fine. No Boo Boo, period."[/quote]

True, but I will support anyone who states that making Boo Boo a viable pet is one way to make us more desireable. Unlike druids who think we should continue to look for improvements in healing to get us desired for groups, I am firmly convinced that getting our DPS bumped up significantly is a path that is more likely to yield results for our class. A buffed-up Boo Boo would allow druids to use him in groups to add DPS while still being able to heal. I like the idea of improved DoTs and such, but with that route, you are still left with the choice to add DPS to the group or heal. Improving the one non-charmed pet we already have is, despite SOE's reticence, something they should strongly consider.

Even if we don't get an improved pet, finding some way to significantly boost druid DPS should be our new focus; given clerics' questionable soloability, SOE is not going to undermine their healing role so that we can get groups. That's not to say that our healing shouldn't be tweaked a little, but it should no longer be our primary concern.

On another note, I agree with Glarnor: asking for new AA's shouldn't be the the way we seek more desireability in groups. IMHO, group desireability and class balance should not have to be bought with more AA's (not for us, not for any class), and such an approach screws over sub-60 druids who have far more trouble getting groups than those druids with AA's to spare. Along those lines, I don't think asking for more dire charm animals in zones is the route to take either, since that "improvement" is predicated on a druid having the dire charm ability to take advantage of more dire charm mobs. We have to remember that the grouping problem isn't just about uber druids or 61-65 druids.

Regards,

Aldane Aglond
Ayonae Ro

Firemynd
06-08-2003, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1. The AA cost was too low. Did you know after I get done buying SCF for 12 points I buy SCFM for 18 and FOMM for 12. So spending 2/4/6 AAs to get a sure fire crit seems too cheap.[/quote]

If you're referring to my proposal, you may have missed two factors: 1.) this would not be a passive ability which gives all nukes a chance for crit, but rather an activated ability which only applies to the next single DD spell cast; 2.) the mana cost for the next spell would be doubled, so you're not getting a lot of free extra/added/bonus damage as you do with criticals in the form which they currently exist.

The idea is to give druids a bigger *visual* impact, while not increasing their overall DPS significantly. The existing AA abilities for crits (SCF and FOM) are both AA-point costly because they work passively, allowing a chance to crit every time the person casts a DD spell, with no additional mana cost. This new proposed AA ability would only be activated for single instances and would double the mana cost.

~Firemynd

Synapticus Asterius
06-08-2003, 08:45 AM
The solution should be simple. Giving druids new abilities is not the answer, because it causes game balance/class envy issues (to me they are one and the same.)
For example,
1) giving druids a resurection spell is a bad idea. we already have 3 rezzing classes in the game. thats more than enough. When was the last time you wanted a paladin or a necro because he can rez? You wanted them in your group because they'll contribute to your group NOT dying.
2) Haste/slow - again, there are three classes that can do this already. Animal-only slows have limited utility, and really won't help a druid get into groups. Necros have undead-only slows, and that is not the thing that gets them into groups.
...you get my point...i hope..

I believe the changes should be modifications and enhancements of existing druid abilities, namely the utility and mana efficiency of our heals, buffs, debuffs, damage shields and AA abilities.
Simple things like make Harmony of Nature AE, just like the old version. Clerics and Enc get wake of tranquility, which is Target AE... yeah.. I dont get it either.
Maybe move Tunare's renewal to a lower level or add a smaller version of the spell earlier in a druid's life, also reduce the mana cost of Karana's renewal.
Debuffs, should have a noticeable affect on mob DPS, and scale with mob difficulty, like slow. Our buffs should stack with other priest buffs.

Demasia
06-08-2003, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I wish the 90% res would be taken off the WIP overview thread. It's not going to happen and only unnecessarily antagonizes other classes and makes druids look greedy when in fact it is only wanted by a small minority of druids. [/quote]

How rude. Let us just silence the druids who have played as healers since release. I actually think a level 64 pally should have a 96% rez considering it is a full 8 levels after the clerics get the same rez. Absor posting a question and the "rez" is part of the answer, whether you want it to be or not. That it may not be fun for you to play healer doesn't change the fact that WE ARE HEALERS.

I could care less if druids are given a rez or enough of other classes are given it, so long as the "rez" is removed as a reason druids do not get PoP groups.

Personally, I see it as misguided and antagonistic to more classes that we would try to move in on one of the 3 DPS slots instead being better balanced as one of the healing priests that we have always been. You have your opinion and I have mine and since it is not possible for you to have played your druid any longer than I have played mine, mine is just as valid as your's.

L1ndara
06-08-2003, 12:18 PM
<strong>What is the reason that they don't want you?</strong>

For the bulk of players who are XPing in pre-elemental outdoor zones there is a simple checklist, slower, healer, tank, damage x3. The problem is druids aren't perceived as any of those. While yes, 65 druids can heal the fact is clerics not only a) heal better, b) give move HPs, but c) when something goes wrong you can get a rez without spending 15 minutes running back to your corpse, dragging it around the zone racing the graveyard and begging clerics in other groups (if there ARE any.) No one enjoys "c" at all, people try to avoid it and if that means getting a cleric over a druid for healing they'll do it and get better heals and a ton of extra HPs thrown in with the deal. For pre-elemental players especially non-raiders the HPs given by a symbol are a HUGE boost. Also with things like lower agro healing, Divine Aura, Arbitration and a nice self HP buff the fact is clerics die less in groups too. While druids don't go splat every pull, a party thinks it's nice to know your healer's only recourse to surviving a bad pull is something more than just root.

Anyway, the problem is partly a matter of perception, partly a matter that the druid class *IS* weak. A druid without Nature's Infusion and light on the AAs and equipment is really hosed as a healer. I wouldn't want 'em. You need a fairly on the ball druid to get much done with a sub 1k heal thats over 5 seconds to cast and 10 second KR. Sure if you have an awesome tank and a shaman supporting you, you can look good but take some sub-65 warrior with a lammy and put them up against your typical teir 2 mob with sub 65 bard/beast slowing and things just aren't pretty. Nature's Touch is FEEBLE, druids need better than that to bridge the gap to Infusion if they're going to be anything but a backup to a cleric. Likewise for damage, while I'm fine on a horse with KEI and FT15, boon of recovery, Bot9, Mask of the Forest, SCM3, MC3, max healing and nuke AAs, your typcial up and coming druid is sitting there without KEI is looking at 33 to as much as 53 without a horse mana per tick and lucky to have Moonfire (and no SCM3...) and not putting out a whole heck of a lot of damage compared to just about anyone else. Your typical 60 druid working to 65 is still stuck in "suck ass land" that most druids were in at the end of Luclin. Even if 65 is bearable, getting to 65 really shows the problems with the class.

<strong>- Looking for new ideas, not people leeching from other classes.</strong>

Shape shifting, an old ability of druids that faded to uselessness. Get tree-form working again and add some party-beneficial effects to it while the druid is in treeform. Add some of the BST pet forms to druids and make wolf form better giving the forms either high proc-rate interesting procs or party-beneficial effects. Form of the Howler's mana regen was a good idea, not sure why Form of the Hunter backed off.

Seppeku2
06-08-2003, 12:23 PM
How about a <span style="color:red;font-size:medium;"><span style="text-decoration:underline"><strong>Treant Form</strong></span></span> kind of like Tree form but you can walk around with it. It could be an AA that gives you hps/ac/mana/whatever. AND THEN <span style="color:red;font-size:medium;"><span style="text-decoration:underline"><strong>Group Treant Form</strong></span></span> :rollin: :rollin: :rollin:

Tiane
06-08-2003, 01:01 PM
Frodlin7th posted a neat idea in another thread I wanted to add here for the record:
"I see no reason why a druid shouldn't be able to minimize damage output per hit while maximizing mob haste through a spell (kind of the opposite of slow, which retains the same damage output per hit, while reducing the number of hits)"

I think this one has possibilities. It's almost a direct remedy for a lot of PoP woes, and a decent substitute for slow. Make it so it doesnt stack and there's no problem. Call it Frodlin's Weakened Frenzy or something, decreases mob's hit strength by 70%, increases mob's haste 50%... play with the numbers till it works out well. Above all dont make it hella-aggro so that we can still function by casting heals/nukes and I think it has promise.

Tia

Scirocco
06-08-2003, 01:32 PM
<strong>slower, healer, tank, damage x3.</strong>


We don't have any slows, and there already are several classes with slows, so that slot is out.

We never will have 96% res, or heals to match a cleric (nor should we). Clerics will always be preferred for this slot.

Tank? 'Nuff said.

So that leaves the 3 DPS slots. If druids are going to increase their desirability for groups, it's going to be here. And it would be better for us since we'd be "competing" for 3 slots instead of 1 == more likely to get into a group.

KittenPawTZ
06-08-2003, 05:45 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>If druids are going to increase their desirability for groups, it's going to be here. And it would be better for us since we'd be "competing" for 3 slots instead of 1 == more likely to get into a group.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. I don't see myself as a "pure" DPS class, especially since I'm specialised in Alteration.

Besides, we will never be better in DPS than wizards and mages, and I can hear the rogues/monks/beastlords growling from here if we ever get our DPS raised and theirs not.

Increasing our abilities as healer isn't the solution, increasing our ability as nuker neither. The only reasonable way to me (at least to get SoE's attention) seems to continue offering what "jack of all trades" is good at : filling a need, hence enhancing what is not "optimal" in a group.

What can be enhanced ? Please read some messages above to see what I mean by enhancing. Resses, slows, nukes, even melee output, and the best is that wouldn't be an exclusitivity to druids, we would actually work hands in hands with other "less desired" classes.

Quelm
06-08-2003, 06:07 PM
Bards aren't very high on the DPS scale, yet many folks are happy to pick them up even if there's a dedicated slower in the group already. They bring things that make other classes better, mainly haste, stat boosts and mana regen.

Mid to high-end Druids deal more damage than Bards, considering nukes, DC pet + nukes, or a charmed pet, but druids don't get the spots nearly as easily. Our mana regen is good, with Pot9, but beyond that, we offer little that makes the rest of the party better. Our traditional party-enhancers: Group DS, Group Regen, Group Wolfform, Str buffs are often wasted buff slots, or worse, liabilities (wolfform faction issues, DS and summoners.) Stacking issues further cripple the utility of our buffs, as in the case of wolfform vs avatar, or regen and the 8th ring buff. Debuffs would be nice, but again, Hand and Illumination have so much aggro it is often more efficient to just nuke.

So, to answer the question, "Why don't people want druids in groups?" I'd say, "Our buffs don't stack well." What can be done is this:
-allow p9 to stack with cleric and paladin self-buffs and consider increasing the duration / decreasing the mana cost of the symbol line
-allow regens to stack with the Coldain ring effects
-let wolfform stack with avatar, or give druids a similar +ATK buff without the faction and bouncing-screensickness issues of wolfform

Iilane SalAlur
06-08-2003, 07:20 PM
Now if SoE is still not aminable to adding abilities, here are 2 limited suggestions on ways to make druids more group friendly without changes to our abilities:

<strong>1) Give better feedback messages for our Ro's line of spells. </strong>
Currently this ability's effectiveness is questionable due to lack of feedback about its effectiveness. As a druid, I still do not know if the Ro's line of spells are intended for use in raids or for group xp. All I know about this line of spells is that it generates tonnes aggro with unknown beneficial returns. Something like this would help a lot:
"Mob_01 is immolated by blazing flames"
"Mob_01 finds his damage reduced by 50 points"

<strong>2) Zone design</strong>
I will assert here that tier 1-3 PoP zones have been designed to negate the effectiveness of most of our class abilities.

Examples? Graveyards, wide range of zones accessible via tranquility, shallow depth of zones (no PoP zone requires crossing more than 3 zone lines to reach them) have eliminated the need for our transport and succor abiliities. Wide open spaces, non-fleeing mobs, immune runspeed mobs have reduced the need for our snaring/rooting abilities.

I believe this isn't intentional but rather is the side-effect of attempts at limiting various class-abilities/eliminating pains. However, because of the wide range of abilities that druids possess, we invariably suffer the cumulative effect of these individual design decisions. While nothing can be done for existing zones, let this be a lesson in zone design for future expansions. In the least, design some zones with the druid's abilities in mind by requring groups that need additional heal power and fire power at different times in an xp session.

BricSummerthorne
06-08-2003, 07:43 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
slower, healer, tank, damage x3.
[/quote]

The "core" group is actually:

Mitigation, healer, tank, damagex3

The form of mitigation changes from expansion to expansion. In Kunark, it was Mez, in PoP it is Slow. The common thread is the ability to make hundreds or thousands of mob DPS just go away.

I think MAY be a niche for us in mitigation. It doesn't have to be Slow, it just needs to reduce incoming DPS.

Iilane SalAlur
06-08-2003, 09:00 PM
I just had a brilliant idea and I'ld like your comments about it.

But before that let me give a little bit of context as to how I came up with this idea. I was thinking about how reputation helps a lot in finding myself a slot in an xp group.

Bascially over this weekend I observed that when I play in my regular (Non-US prime time) hours, it usually doesn't take me long to get into a group. I reason that people have heard about me and that I am competent enough to do a decent heal job even in tier 3 planes and still be able to occasionally contribute some mean dps. However, when I play during US prime time, I can *never* find a group willing to adopt me.

It occurred to me that the reason is because they've never heard of Iilane the competent druid so in their eyes, I'm only unknown_druid_09999.

Here's how my idea comes into play. Implement some kind of rating system in EQ. Everytime I am in a group, each group member can give a tick or cross to my name. This will be anonymous to prevent me from knowing who gave me a tick and who gave me a cross unless they told me so. Also, to prevent people from cumulating too many ticks or crosses, each tick/cross can fade after a certain time period (3 months?).

These ticks and crosses can be found in the LFG window when my LFG tag is switched on so that when a group is looking for additional members, they can see my name and my "reputation". There, SoE, no improvements to innate class abilities and yet improves groupability of not just druids but other classes too. Comments?

Daddun
06-08-2003, 09:19 PM
Great suggestions so far.
I think let our iCHing spells work with Healing Gift would be awsome.

I also really like the idea of giving us a damage mitigation spell not stackable with slow. it should be worse then slow, but could let us replace a shaman in a group. Either that or make our current atk/AC debuffs do something a bit more... dramatic.

A really good addition to us would be an animal slow, and perhaps give Necromancers an undead only tash, like ours in return for a slow. Although, if we get a mitigation spell that would eliminate the need for this.

Other than that I think we're fine. Our nuking and healing is great, and am otherwise satisfied with the class.

Daddun
06-08-2003, 09:22 PM
I seem to generate mass amounts of agro on my new large heals, and have no way to survive. Once I save somebodys life, the mob comes after me and I'm done for. Perhaps a DA like spell? I don't know, but we need a way to live longer.

GruntGrunt
06-08-2003, 09:48 PM
Give Druids a new pet, a "Natures Companion" type. Instead of it being a damage dealing pet, this pet aids in beneficial ways.. it assist heals in small manners (A reduced .. casts group damage shields.. cures group members thats under the affliction of a detrimental spell.

Naturally, this pet would have a duration, and would need recast (say, 20 minutes duration pet?). Also, give the pet the ability to sacrifice itself to save a group member thats about to die, however it would also destroy the pet (Yeah, boarderig on DI, but still it wouldnt be).

Alternatively, make it an AA type skill which makes the pet progress in power to make it more useful for most. Say, you can start to buy the AA skill at level 50, and get the final upgrade at level 65.

To further the idea, say the spell (or AA skill) pet has a lifetime of 20 minutes (unless it 'sacrifices' itself to save a groupmember), and the spell / AA skill has a reuse time of 20 minutes. It would mean you would have a stable pet up, unless the pet is dead to AE, sacrifice, getting aggro etc.

The pet would naturally only work for the group the Druid currently is in.

It could be like a.. floating Dryad spirit or something :}

TheMycrof
06-08-2003, 10:00 PM
Well, a pipe dream for me would to add a meaningful line of spells that shape shifted the druid.

Rather then do something mundane, why not do something that would vastly alter the class. Part of the problem druids have is that we simply are too much like something else, but not quiet as good.

My pipe dream consists of a line of spells that transforms druids into various animals. These form carry substantial melee buffs, but being in these forms prevents the druid from using magic. In essences, the druid is transformed, lets say, to a crocodile or bear or tiger or some other animal that's already global. While in this form the melee output is similar to, say, a magicians or BST pets of near equal level.

In my minds eye I see a druid in a group that alread has a cleric and a shaman. The druid casts a few DoTs, and, since they have no other purpose then to damage, shifts forms into a crocodile. While in this form they are unable to nuke or heal or buff or DS, but can deliver decent DPS and, in the event of an emergency, can shift out, perhaps be stunned for a few second after returned to humaniod form, and spot heal.

In this particular scenario, we increase the druids utility without impinging on the class abilities that make clerics or shamans unique. Wizards and Magicians and melees will still out damage us, but we will bring significant DPS to the group with us when we are not required to fill in the healers role.

*shrugs*

Anyway, that's merely my pipe dream.

Sebbi Fyrewalker
06-08-2003, 10:35 PM
The solution to a druid's desirability in a group won't come through tweaking healing or DPS. The druid class is well balanced in those areas, with benefits and drawbacks which allow a skilled player to be valuable in a wide range of groups, if we can get an invite. We need something which benefits the entire group, something which people will take note of and say "it would be nice if we could find a druid".

A spell or better yet an AA like this:

Cost: 2500 mana
Group Only
All buffs within the druid's group are restored to full duration.

This would have a few benefits. First, it would cause other classes to be aware of a druid in group. Secondly, it would allow druids to perform properly as main healers, by maintaining hit point buffs when clerics have left.

Aside from something eyebrow raising like this, all the tweaks in the world won't make a group seek out a druid.

Tilien Venator
06-09-2003, 12:33 AM
I was healing on Yellow to 65 mobs in PoE yesterday. Only healer in the group... Our healing is pretty much fine. Only a few problems with druid healing. One is aggro control. Druids have only 2 forms of aggro control. Do nothing, just stand there or die. That's it. I die ALOT more then the clerics in my guild do. We both have to heal the same mobs, we both get the same aggro, but the druid dies to it.

I'm not sure what to do about it. I do NOT want DA or FD, but maybe a form of jolt or concussion or something? I'd love a aap that did this. Say, something like say 3aap for neg 125 hate and 3 or 4 tick recast. 4aap for n250 hate, 5aap for n500 hate. This would also help with our dps/debuffing aggro. One of our biggest aggro issues is having to heal right after debuffing a mob. We're usually the only healer in our group and while our initial debuff doesn't drag the mob on to us, having to toss a heal right afterwards can be a death sentence.

Our other main healing issue is the cost of our heals. Karana's Renewal's cost needs to be lowered to around 450 or so. Lowering SoTW to say a 16 min recast, even if we had to spend say 3 more aap for that bonus would also help out alot. Upping the AC and DS on it wouldn't hurt. You could easily double both with out any balancing issues at all.

Other minor issues would be adding a neg100-150 to Eci's resist adjustment. That's about all druids really need.

Concerning Rez's. Druids DO NOT need any spell castable version of ANY rez. Period. However, after saying that. I don't think that a priest only (ie. one that has to be equiped to cast) 5 charge rez stick wouldn't be too unbalancing. Give it 3 to 5 charges and allow clerics to recharge it with a spell and a 400ish pp per charge component (Cleric imbues 5 gems, then combines them and the stick in a tinkersbag). Make it 85-90% and a 30sec+ cast time. Oh, a level 60 min level on it too. Be nice to make a 50ish (55?) min on the level of the rez taker. Make the cleric spell be 61+.

Firemynd
06-09-2003, 12:50 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Cost: 2500 mana
Group Only
All buffs within the druid's group are restored to full duration.
[/quote]

While I love the originality and universal application of this type of buff, I can see a few substantial drawbacks:

- Someone's buffs would start blinking and they'd be in an utter panic rushing the druid into casting (and hoping the druid had enough mana) ... if a buff fades before the refresher lands, that buff's duration isn't restored and they're heading to nexus to buy a new one.
- Having one class be able to refresh buffs of other classes would trivialize the time and energy that devs put into designing and balancing buff spells of caster classes.

Biggest reason a spell or ability like this won't happen, is simply because buffing capabilities are part of what makes each buffing class desirable to have in groups.

It's not a bad idea and perhaps this line of thinking will lead to something more doable, but any spell that alleviates the need for other classes would eventually cause players of those other classes to resent druids .. not the least of whom would be those who make money selling their buffs in nexus and pok. ;)

~Firemynd

Kbern
06-09-2003, 04:31 AM
OK....change gears some.

How about no new abilities but do away with the NEED for other classes.

Take slow for one. Why is it needed? The game designers made it so.

Why not make some mob groupings, or zones where the mobs are immune to slow, and not raid level mobs. Now make these mobs hit a bit less than the unslowed pop mobs, but slightly more than a slowed pop mob.

Now, we have no one needing new abilities. Slower classes are not made useless since they have many other skills to bring to the table, however, it loosens up the need that 6 people cannot do anything in pop without a slower.

There one solution the game designers can make that it not unbalancing at all, does not give druids any advantage other classes, does nto do anything but allow non perfectly tuned groups to be able to explore pop and get some exp without having a shaman or chanter present.

Stormhaven
06-09-2003, 06:26 AM
For all of those clamoring for a shape-shifting ability, take into consideration that we will probably get only three choices of shapes - wolf, bear, and tree. The rest would get into that whole "global image file" issue. Instead of changing shape consider just taking on a new "mask of" type spell - in other words you get an animal aura instead of changing shape. From a game mechanics point of view that's much more likely to happen than the implementation of 101 new animal forms.

For those who want Rez - consider this - half of the druids on this thread alone disagree with druids getting rez. You're going to meet at least that much resistance getting it on the table for serious consideration. Paladins got rez because they are a child class of the clerics, necros got it at a very high (annoying) price. What you're all suggesting is that we get a 90% rez with no negative side effects or additional requirements. I honestly don't see that happening. I think the chances of "rez stones" being added is more likely than druids getting a form of rez.

bdg55
06-09-2003, 07:48 AM
trying to stay out of the issue as much as possible, too many times these boards go haywire with fanatics on boths sides and smelly trolls being born by the minute, BUT i have this to add:

1. I agree, rezzes = bad idea, i am not a cleric (well my 2 box is....) I am a druid

2. I'd rather SoE start to do some serious work on our AA options instead of trying to tweak us without pissing off the remainder of the eq world. We seriously have the absolute worst choices for class and planar aa's. Outside of SotW and exodus, little else do we bring to the exp world table. SCF and FM are nice little "fireworks" but do not add enough for their costs. I'd seriously like to see something thrown to us that is useful and add more to our roll in the 61+ world.

Demasia
06-09-2003, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What you're all suggesting is that we get a 90% rez with no negative side effects or additional requirements. I honestly don't see that happening. I think the chances of "rez stones" being added is more likely than druids getting a form of rez.[/quote]

I think that identifying the rez as one of the reasons druids do not get groups is accurate. Those who, for whatever their personal reasons may be, adamantly oppose rezzes being tampered with at all are who have been fixated on "druids getting a 90% rez". As one of the most vocal proponents of the rez being removed as an issue in grouping mechanics, I have specifically stated that I don't care how it happens. Whether it is by rez stones, many more classes receiving the ability, all of the priest classes receiving the ability, an alteration to the loss of exp to death or whatever some creative mind can conjure, I will support a change that removes "rez" from being <strong>one of the primary reasons</strong>druids do not get groups.

Of course my view is not popular among clerics nor is it beneficial to my own level 49 cleric. But this discussion is not about clerics or how to protect their healer spot in groups.

Half the druid community is not only opposed to druids receiving a rez, but they would prefer to be more targeted for the Slower/Mitigator or DPS slots in groups. There will be resistance whichever way we go. As far as what our desires may be, I think the soloing nerfs indicate that no matter what percent of druids support what we will steared to the role that the developers see a best for the game. This is our chance to give them feedback before they make changes, just as we have asked from them.

Synapticus Asterius
06-09-2003, 08:17 AM
I still think the damage per tick on the swarm series dot should be increased while maintaining the overall Damage to mana ratio. Makes it more useful in group setting when kills are quick.

Chroam
06-09-2003, 09:23 AM
<em>We should have the best damage avoidance of the priest classes, by far.</em>

o Cleric: excellent damage mitigation (+DA/DB), decent damage avoidance, excellent heals, ability to res, poor utility.

o Shaman: decent damage mitigation, decent damage avoidance, excellent slows, good heals, decent utility

o Druid: poor damage mitigation, excellent damage avoidance, good heals, good utility

(The scale is excellent, good, decent, poor).

The changes would be in a raising of the Cleric's ability to absorb damage (optional, should be based on tests) and a Druid's ability to avoid it, and are obviously based on my own perceptions of the current relative levels. Shamans might have a complaint, but that would be expected to be looked at after changing the two other priests.

Primarily, this change would <em>allow druids to be able to *survive* rough pulls</em> (e.g. like a cleric can take damage, heal through a rough pull, and/or res afterwards). Examples of the benefits include enhancing our succor ability in groups (avoiding the damage helps us get it off), allowing us to debuff/nuke earlier/more often, and decreasing downtime from Dead Druid Syndrome. <em>It would generate an opinion that druids are hard to kill,</em> and who wouldn't want a healer than can (1) heal through the whole fight with almost no interruptions or (2) almost cetaintly still be there when you need to leave *now*.

Not to mention how much it would help us on raids (we still get the aggro but can survive it better) and I can see benefits to solo'ing (though I dont' solo).

This increase would not be be overly unbalancing, and it would not allow us to do something we can't currently do: we would simply be able to actually do everything we're supposed to be able to do already. For instance, we already have the ability to instantly evac. Currently, though, in PoP we either have to make the choice to stay out of the fight (in Pop, if you get aggro, you can be dead even before you can get an Exodus off; not healing, of course, means you're unreliable and people die) or succor as soon as you see "too many" mobs (which means you're seen as disruptive to the grind at the least and a bad player at worst). And, why, yes, I've had Exodus go off at my bind point a few times, thank you ;) ).

Finally, this increase wouldn't take anything from any other class ability-wise. Monks are the melee-class that are hard to kill (avoidance and FD)? Well, let druids be the casting type class that is hard to kill. It is subtle and effective.

Thanks for reading :)


later,
Chroam

P.S. When I say "by far" I mean "by far"! :)

Remi
06-09-2003, 09:50 AM
Reviewed the Overview (Great job doing that Storm!) a few times and didn't see this suggestion on it.

Reduce time on Natures Recovery to 60-90 seconds (currently 180 seconds), and reduce recast time to 45 seconds (currently 90 seconds).

There are alternative ways to fix Nature's Recovery, but in it's current form, it's not worth the spell slot.

Beyond that, I agree with the most supported/Neutral/Negative portion of the Overview 100%.

Duralupal
06-09-2003, 10:29 AM
Not sure how much (probably not at all) it would help our ability to get groups, but on Nature's Recovery I would like to see it "fixed". Personally would love to see a spell line made of it even, lvl 19 15 a tick, lvl 39 30 a tick, lvl 60 60 a tick. Same durations, cut the recast from 90 seconds to 45 seconds. Cutting the duration drastically and upping the hp/tick as a lot of people are proposing would up it's effectiveness considerably, but it starts to feel more like a celestial-style HoT and less like a druidical regen (to me anyway).

As to getting groups better with it....well, it would increase our efficiency as healers a little bit, and since it would have been improved into a state to make it useful and used people would notice it. (necros would love us at least! -- as things stand now half the time a necro doesn't even know what the heck I'm casting on him when I throw recovery on top of replenishment :/) That said, we'd remain simply clerics lt., and being the undispusted "kings of regen", while cool, ain't gonna get us groups :P

L1ndara
06-09-2003, 10:30 AM
<strong>Reduce time on Natures Recovery to 60-90 seconds (currently 180 seconds), and reduce recast time to 45 seconds (currently 90 seconds). </strong>

Assume you mean you increase the amount regenned per tick when you decrease the time.

<strong>There are alternative ways to fix Nature's Recovery, but in it's current form, it's not worth the spell slot.</strong>

It would have made a great level 50 or so spell. It and Nature's Touch are a sad joke at 60.

oddjob1244
06-09-2003, 11:53 AM
"Improve the Attack debuffs so that debuffing attack actually creates a noticable reduction in dps."

Can we make that in bold text? Please

kineada
06-09-2003, 12:06 PM
Got to page 5 and decided to skip the rest. My 2cp worth:

A druid line of spells that debuffs MAX-MIN hits of mobs (MAX is what matters to most people but the two values are linked so you debuff MAX, you also debuff MIN). And yes ... Make it stack with slow.

Say a mob can quad for 3000. Now I don't care how well equipped your tank is ... If a mob rolls well (rolls quads AND rolls max on each hit), your tank will die. Landing a 75% unmitigated slow on this guy won't help either since slows affect how often a mob gets a round in and not how many hits he delivers in any particular round.

A debuff (use the Eci's line perhaps -- Touch of Eci) that drops MAX hit from 3000 to 2250 will allow your tank to survive a single round of hits.

This debuff will work well in exp groups. Dropping a 500 hitting golem in PoV to 375. That may seem hugh but please not that it's only a 25% reduction in MAX hits.

What this spell line can do is control "spike" damage. It limits the maxium damage a mob can dish out in a single round.

Will this spell trivialize a golem fight in PoV if you have a shaman present? Hell yeah! But then again, a golem fight in PoV is ALREADY trivial with a shaman present. Reducing MAX hit will save your cleric (or your druid) from casting one CH in every four.

Will the spell allow a group to function WITHOUT a shaman present? Hell yeah! Which is the point of this thread. Please remember that a druid would have to cast Touch of Eci plus Sundering and Illumination to gain the benefits of one shaman casting one slow.

You would of course need another healer on account of anything else the druid does will get him squished.

One druid can stand in for a cleric for heals now. With Touch of Eci, one druid can stand in for a shaman as well. Although one druid cannot do both jobs.

This fits in well with the generalist idea of a druid. Not only that, it allows the druid to enchance a group already blessed with either a shaman or a cleric. Touch of Eci would make the druid desirable in groups no mater the makeup.

Which is the point of this thread. What would it take to make the druid more desirable in groups. Melee ability debuffs (Touch, Hand and Illumination) would save heal mana and increase group efficiency.

Tyrellan
06-09-2003, 01:56 PM
Well, first off - I hope this post live long enough for someone at Verant to read....

Secondly, I'm a ranger - And as is typical when someone asks how to improve a druid, I spend the time going from absolutely sickened by some idiot that has a god complex, to absolutely laughing my butt off.

Giving a druid a 90%? I'm absolutely dumbfounded by this... What an absolute riot. So what next, am I as a ranger going to get rezzes? After all, Paladins get them from their base class.

Ok, now that I've gotten that off my chest...

Some of the changes I've read are pretty good - and I could learn to live with them... Why you can't get a critical heal on your spells, I'll never know...

* Harmony - Far from the worst 'lull' spell - I just it were still AoE...
* Removing indoor restrictions? YES!! Please YES! It's not fair that the mobs can do it if we as players can't...
* Increase crit melee hits and crit spells? No - makes no sense...
* Animal only heal over time - What a great idea!
* Rez? Don't even get me laughing at whoever suggested this...
* Translocate spells? Never!
* The random hit thing and hitpoints - Laughable like the Rez...

I'll refrain from commenting on AA abilities as I simply don't know that much about them...

You are not wizards; you are druids - No TL's... You are druids, not clerics - No rezzes...



Tyrellan C'Fahn
60 Ranger
Cazic Thule

kineada
06-09-2003, 02:25 PM
<em>Edited - post you were responding to was deleted</em>


On a more serious note ... There are several threads asking for stuff like rez, slows, higher damage, etc but those ideas have been pretty much shot down by the community as not integral to making a druid group friendly.

Reducing mob dps in a noticable way, heals over time, better damage return from damage shields ... These things would help to increase a druid's group desirability.

In the end ... That's all we're looking for. A chance to be a desired class in group settings. The posts for rez, slows, nukes are part of the "brainstorming" that's going on in this thread.

While they won't and shouldn't be implemented, they do create some discussion which may result in a viable and workable solution.

Ideas can come from the most unlikeliest places. A rez thread could yield a solution that has nothing to do with rez.

Help to find a solution to make druids a grouping class as opposed to a solo class. Saying NO and HELL NO does not solve our issues. This is a druid community after all.

Don't try and suppress ideas just because you disagree with them.

fronithunderpaws
06-09-2003, 03:13 PM
I tried to make it through a lot of the threads and have probably forgotten half of what folks suggested.

I know we are the generalist class but we are also defined through attunement of nature.

So, first idea is to give us a spell line along the lines of the shaman "awareness" potions - they are not reflected in any classes spell lines at present and are very group friendly. Maybe it is just me, but I have never seen anyone use the potion and they seem like they would be quite useful. Toss in some spells to add procs or damage bonuses to the melees weapons and we have a nice set of group friendly spells that are not taking away from other classes combat abilities (at least I hope. Yes it decreases potion market for something not often used because of cost.)

Environmental change - I think someone mentioned this. A spell to make the indoors outdoors for awhile. Weather effects or environmental effects that change the nature of play for example, desert winds would reduce the effect of cold based attacks of all PC's and NPC's within the range of the spell and maybe increase fire spells a bit. Probably hard to code, but would add an extra angle to strategy in some encounters. (dry vs. underwater, anti-magic, night vs. day,.... kind of in line with the Wake of Karana spell).

Call to the animals - a group pet spell line: all of the near by animals or plants (level limited and non-aggro when it finishes) would rally and become pets of anyone in the group without a pet (maybe like the enchanter animations where they aren't controlled.) One pet per group member limit.

I would much rather have some new abilities than compete with some old ones. Also it would be nice to consider the changes through the levels instead of just in the 60+ crowd.

FyyrLuStorm
06-09-2003, 05:13 PM
There just are not enough animals in the end game to even consider any animal spells.

And animals for the lower levels just don't really hit that hard. Animal slows would be a waste of time.

Savage spirit already has an AC buff and STR too, iirc.

How about an animal rez?

Demasia
06-09-2003, 05:25 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I did notice that, but people were still talking about it ... However, I think the animal heal over time (for pets) is an excellent idea... [/quote]

We will continue talking about the rez because it is a primary reason why druids have trouble finding groups. It is an answer to Absor's question. That we can't agree on a solution doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate answer.

I don't agree that being able to heal animal pets better addresses any of the reasons druids are overlooked for groups.

sudawilde
06-09-2003, 05:34 PM
HOT heals for animal pets would do nothing for a druids "group apeal" it has Solo power boost written all over it.

Sabrosia
06-09-2003, 05:44 PM
Very true - I still think rezzes are a very very bad idea ...

My suggestion to this: A 'natures' slow spell; outdoors only... Make it a combination snare and slow; At level 65, it's 50% slow (just like the ranger epic slow)... It shouldn't be as good as chanties or a shamans, but it should be good enough for when you don't have either class...

That alone, would get more druids in groups...


There, I made suggestion for those that said 'because I don't like the rezz idea, I was a troll' (ok, not quite like that - but that was the gist of it) ... :mad:

sudawilde
06-09-2003, 05:58 PM
i know this is going to get posted all over the shaman board, but i have to say it...

Of the three "priest class's" the shaman have it the best when it comes to desireability.

Solo, they are very effective
group, they are exceptionally effective
raid, they are nothing less than Necessary

How do they achieve this? they have a base of skills that apply themselves in all three area with equil effectivness.

Slow(best in the game)
Buffs(best in the game)
Heals(Quintissence makes it very difficult to not call them 2nd best healer)
debuffs(their debuffs make a measureable difference)

of all the class's i would feel the least pain for if one of their skills were given away, it would be the shaman, they have it so good now its almost insane.

p.s. i dont want rezz or slow thanks :D

BricSummerthorne
06-09-2003, 06:01 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
How about an animal rez?
[/quote]

omg

rofl IRL

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
A 'natures' slow spell; outdoors only... Make it a combination snare and slow
[/quote]
Nope, c'mon, that's bigger than rez. Slow > All. The boards would LIGHT UP.

Welcome to The Central Dilemma. We're already very powerful. Adding something to make us more group friendly increases our total power. NOT adding something leaves us as gimpy Clerics in groups.

IMO, the class was simply built to excel at soloing. Now that soloing is become the Great Evil, we are back to square one as far as class balance.

TeriMoon
06-09-2003, 06:07 PM
Some form of animal only or outdoors only additional ability really doesn't do anything but leave a bad taste in my mouth. What sort of agro would a 65% slow or any type of slow dish out? What means have we to reduce or mitigate such agro, especially if we are going to be taking the place as the main healer and the main slower in such a group??

Again, this type of thing would make us WAY overpowered as soloers.

Suggestions are great, brainstorming is wonderful. But people please, lets keep in mind what are the limitations we currently work under, so we don't suggest things that will only make it worse.

Agro is a pretty big problem when I am nuking. I manage my heal agro sufficiently most of the time unless I get tired and careless. But my nuke agro gets to be a lot for some reason. When I never fall below 70m all night as a nuker in a group, then I know I am not really being very effective.

Our healing is adequate for most things. I want the HG to work with the renewal line. Be nice if "some" other class besides clerics (!) and mages could help with our cast time, because sometimes NI is just TOO SLOW. I can live with SotW recast time I guess. Can we make NR more useful. Can we make a reason for me to mem Karana's Renewal aside from charming? Its too costly in mana, especially since I have no chance to crit it, no matter how many AAs I throw at it.

I was contemplating trying to acquire a healing IV focus item, but then I realized it would only work with NI, so I kinda thought nevermind.

In any case, my two biggest areas of concern remain squarely in our dual roles, healing and damage. I think if those abilities were working well, we would all be much better off. Healing needs a minor tweaking (the HG thing mostly). Damage dealing needs some more thought and work, more than healing IMO.

Demasia
06-09-2003, 06:17 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My suggestion to this: A 'natures' slow spell; outdoors only... Make it a combination snare and slow; At level 65, it's 50% slow (just like the ranger epic slow)... It shouldn't be as good as chanties or a shamans, but it should be good enough for when you don't have either class...

That alone, would get more druids in groups...[/quote]

While I can visualize a druid slow as easily as the entwining from a root or snare, why would we want our grouping strength to be targeted for the already multi-class contested Slower spot? We aren't presently a contender for that slot and never have been.

So much concern is given that we don't step on the toes of one class, yet there are so many willing to move into the territory of several other classes in a role that would be new for us.

Most every other class thinks we are greedy and are already overpowered, yet choose or often wait for a stranger cleric who is several levels lower than the stranger LFG druid. However, if the question was posed to their classes "why is it that groups breakup when the cleric leaves?" we would likely find that there is universal agreement (except from clerics) that grouping is presently too dependent upon a single class in the game.

Hillo BBH
06-09-2003, 06:28 PM
OK, from my perspective, a timid druid who doesn't like charm kiting much (too scary!) and likes to help his guildmates, here is what i would like to see implemented.
1. The Ro's stuff? it has potentional, make the spells lower max damage more and less rare!
2. We are masters of nature, friends of animals, and we get a crappy little bear booboo, not some cool eagle, but a little bear that can barely farm for us! give us something like a shamen or mage pet!
3. A buff called "focus of nature" level 58 or so, kind of like bstld clarity?
Disclaimer: I'm right your wrong :P

Sebbi Fyrewalker
06-09-2003, 07:58 PM
Maybe we're approaching the issue from the wrong angle. Most of the brainstorming has focused on improvements to druids which would make us more desirable in groups. Perhaps a more workable solution lies in a few changes to other classes.

As has been stated previously, a paladin goes a long way to making a group druid friendly (symbol and rez). Small changes to other classes, such as removing / lowering component cost to high level necro rez and giving magicians Return of the Hero (reanimation) might go a long way to convincing a group that a druid will fit the bill.

Jhoric
06-09-2003, 08:11 PM
Hadn't bothered to read the other posts here just the ones on other thread, but I have 2 suggestions.

One is to give druids a buff that makes it so that the maximum spells we can have cast on ourselves is raised from 15 to let's say, 25, it would take up a buff slot and would not be dispellable. I'm sure that is something many people desire, just a few more buff slots. I know melee have very little room to play with, expecially SK's.

The other thing was Damage Shield related. Would be sorta complicated but would work out some. Can have the damage shield number be equal to like the lvl of the people in the group devided by 6, so with 6 lvl 65's adding up to 65 pt ds to each person. This would make it attractable to have a druid to DS and to have more people in the group for a better DS.

Also a fix: A while ago the range of DS was silently nerfed. You have to be a lot closer than you used to. Can make the range wider that it'll hit the targeted group, that would be nice.

Taugur
06-09-2003, 11:51 PM
Animal only slow sounds like a good idea

Reidwen
06-10-2003, 12:33 AM
The damage reducer, or a significant atk debuff has promise. Fits well with what we've been doing for awhile. The Ro line is ours, and it would love it if some new life was breathed into it.

A percentage based damage sheild would be nice, around 25%-15% ( if it was in line with the old ds rate of return ). It would only be powerful against High hitting mobs, any other mob and you'd use a flat damage DS. Tweek the numbers whichever way fits, for nearly anything would be better than sending 40 back when you got tagged for 600.

I do wonder just how many group spots we've lost due to the 'all in one' cleric skin over the years. Grouping is dependant on how well the classes mesh togeather, and our hp buffs haven't meshed with expensive cleric buffs for awhile. Considering how much moaning I hear over reagent costs, doing something as simple as droping the component off the cleric ward and symbol would increase group invites, if only because that particular cleric was cheap. People might even notice they get more HP, AC and Mana out of that stack.

The strength of a generalist is the ability to switch roles mid battle. As it is we take serious agro debuffing and healing. You can't choose when you need to heal, so play that safe and you sacrifice dps. If you go heavy dps, you sacrifice yourself when you have to heal. Casting subtlety would be a good tool to bump up dps when we are in a 'pure' dps group slot, maybe allow us to bump the kill rate of a clericlite (tm) group enough to compensate for the lack of the big hp totals and less efficent heals.

Not going to much about the agro and inefficency of our dots in a PoP xp grind. The only thing I will say about them is they dont contribute a whole lot except one huge chunk of agro in those 30 second fight.

I come out of lurker mode maybe twice a year and my quota is about filled. Tear away boys and girls, see some of you in the feild.

/wave

Tils
06-10-2003, 12:36 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Animal only slow sounds like a good idea [/quote]

What do you think were going to use it on? The choice of animals out there is so slim it wont exactly make us groupable....remeber this is to make us more desired in groups not to solo better.


Tils

Taugur
06-10-2003, 03:27 AM
Animal slows would add only little safety to soloing. When you kite/charm in PoP you will try not to get hit at all really :-)
So it is only a tool to use in combination with a tank class really i.e. a group not solo tool.

Hmm maybe my point of view is a bit odd here, but I often dual box my Druid (lvl61) with my SK main. Past tier1 planes the straight tank+heal days are over.
So animal slow would open an additional niche without stepping on Chanter's and Shaman's feet really.
With an animal slow in the spell line up I would probably stop thinking "I wish I made a Shaman".

And I agree, a few more animals in tier2/3 planes would be a nice bonus to such a spell :D

BricSummerthorne
06-10-2003, 03:42 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Animal slows would add only little safety to soloing.
[/quote]
I think she is referring to the scenario where you:
1) Pull 2 animals
2) Charm one
3) Slow the other

Gimli fan
06-10-2003, 03:44 AM
Animal slow would be very weak unless there were zones with a ton of animals and no creatures that could come wreak your crew.

If you are merrily grinding EXP or yada yada yada and someone gets a non-animal add that you can't slow Sony is going to set it up so everyone dies...thus you need a real slower and a cleric as usual.

I strongly disagree that animal slow is gonna help much of anyone. That being said I think they could throw it in as a bonus free of charge.

Some more animals to charm would be great. Mix with some form of a slow caliber abitilty (like slow), or far stronger healing (regen and thorns do not cut it when compared to strong healing or slow), a mini upgrade in damage or ratio (to offset the large mana cost they are going to levey on any new spells), and an upgrade to translocate peeps to their bind point.

As another bonus throw in an auto sow to ports and our new translocates...after all the spell grants travel to and around the moon, lets class it up a bit.

corlathist
06-10-2003, 03:50 AM
In terms of Buffs & Abilities.

I'd like to see the "druid mastery of the outdoors" restored.
As such, I'd like to see Group Greater Wolf form a useful spell.

To do this, I'd like to see a couple things.
1) Mana Regen Added to the line ((especially since by using this you give up horses))
2) Savage Spirit (self pet only buff) be allowed to work on any animal including Wolf Formed, Bear Formed, Wolf Pets
3) Animal Only Rez 90%

**Edit Addition**
Basically the reason, I want this combination is to make wolf form actually desired once more. One of my fondest memories of the early days doing Orcs in WC would be when "some powerful" druid gave us this great buff called wolf form. As the game moved on, there is simply no reason to wolf it.
**End Addition**

Elemental Line of Buffs. 4 Unique Buffs that you could only have one up on.
Earth Buff: Percentage Increase in Damage Mitigation
Fire Buff: Attack Buff + up to 10% Nuking Buff
Air Buff: Increase Chance of Procs and Crits
Water Buff: Percentage Increase in Healing.

Nothing Large here, but the strength I am going for is enchancing the abilities of others ala Bards.

I'd also like to see Druid CC increased. An AA Root that would work on Run-Speed Immune Mobs. Hell, I think just dramatically removing the Run-Speed Immune would help druids get groups. Perhaps figure away to make mobs immune to snare to avoid kiting, but not root. Or make mobs have different base speeds and remove random run speed immunities.

Hobbo
06-10-2003, 04:13 AM
disclaimer: Didnt read all 10 pages on this thread, just the summary stormhaven wrote.

Basically I dont think it's reasonable to think we will get completely new abilities, nor do i think it's needed really. Of all the ideas I found one that i think is a very reasonable request and that would imo help me alot in being useful to a group

<em>Summon companion to work with DC creatures</em>

When I get invited to a group i basically have one of 2 roles main healer or damage dealer. As main healer a cleric obviously is better, however if I have a dc pet doing somewhere around 70dps (according to my parses) that is a reasonable tradeoff for worse heals and no rez. Same case with dmg dealer role. Wiz, mage, rog, ranger, monk all are much better than a druid.... unless i have a dc pet then i feel i can probably put out comparable damage. So in summary druid with dc pet is good in a group. Druid without dc pet is not good in a group, especially in the damagedealer role.

Being able to bring dc pets much more easily to any camp in the zone would pretty much make me completely happy with the current situation. Obvious example is plane of fire where you cant bring the dc mobs past the first castle which is where people almost always group.

Grevlingitaket
06-10-2003, 05:54 AM
-There has been alot of posts here, tossing out ideas on how to make druids more fun to play, make us better healers, make us more viable dungeon crawlers etc. Maybe 1 out of 10 posts have directly adressed the heading though, and that is what should be done to make druids more wanted in groups.

-I have a 65 DRU and i have a 62 WAR, both pre-elemental though.

As a warrior, i want 3 things for my group as a start.

1 - Every group needs a healer. A druid can serve as a healer in most PoP grps. Not as good as a cleric, not by far, but a druid is better than nothing. However, if a grp need a healer for their group, and both a CLR and a DRU is LFG...... well, u know what i mean. IMO , druids are good enough healers. This is not the spot where we need a boost/change. Id love a pulse-heal or halfed recast time on SotW, but it really wouldnt make us a MUCH more wanted class for groups.

2 - I want A SLOWER ! PoP mobs, besides yard trash, hits hard and fast, and with no slower, there just arent any grp. I like the thought of having a druid able to SLOW (in some kind of way), and it would probably help us getting into a group.

BUT

3 - I want a HASTEr in my group aswell. Dont get my wrong, im NOT calling for both druid SLOW and HASTE here. My point is only that when groups wants a slower, they also GET a haster. The combination of getting a char into my group that can both SLOW the mobs and HASTE the melees makes my choices easy, when i, as a warrior decides what classes i want in my group. Make youre regular XP group click of haste for 15 minutes one day, and come back to me with youre opinion.

IS THERE A POINT HERE ??? :

Yes, allthough id love to be able to slow mobs, it still wouldnt make my druid a class that groups became eagered to get. Most posts here have totally failed to see the importance of HASTE. A melee feels utterly inadequat when hes unhasted, and will grab a haster looooong before a class that is "just" able to slow.

Is my point then that druids should be able to HASTE aswell ? NO !! My point is that these ideas on druids slowing, is a step in the wrong direction. When poeple want a slower for their group, they also want/get a haster. Sooo, come on people, we gotta come up with somethings other than slow to make us a "wanted" group class out there.

Accretion
06-10-2003, 07:51 AM
A very valid point, Gravling. I also play a 55 Warrior and a melee without haste is not a pretty picture.

In light of that, I think I'd rather have our debuffs improved slightly (but noticably) and continue to stack with slow if at all possible. Perhaps they're just improved by reducing the aggro generation but I do agree that simple damage mitigation will probably not get us into groups because of the lack of haste factor.

<img src="http://sun.he.net/~justin1/eq/sig4.jpg"/>
Magelo Profile (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=562742)

kineada
06-10-2003, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>2) Savage Spirit (self pet only buff) be allowed to work on any animal including Wolf Formed, Bear Formed, Wolf Pets[/quote]

Savage Spirit is pretty powerful.

1: Increase Attack Speed by 64% (L44) to 70% (L50)
2: Increase STR by 42 (L44) to 45 (L50)
3: Increase AC by 15 (L44) to 16 (L50)

Compare that to Speed of Valon:

2: Increase AGI by 52
3: Increase DEX by 33
4: Increase ATK by 41
5: Increase Attack Speed by 68%

Please note that Savage Spirit is a level 44 spell. While I like the idea, Savage Spirit is a pet buff and should stay as a pet buff.

The only reason I don't support a druid haste buff is that in PoP, haste and 100pp will get you KEI (/ooc sorry ... was thinking of something in the same line as X and 50cents will get you a cup of coffee).

What PoP group encounters need more than anything is a debuff on mobs. Lowering max damage as opposed to average damage would go a long way towards increasing our groupability.

For those that don't know. Ro's lowers a mob's average damage. That is ... It shifts the hit damage curve down. With Ro's mobs will on average hit for less damage. Although max hits are still possible.

In much the same way an orc pawn will tend to hit a level 65 elemental equipped warrior for min rather than max. The orc pawn CAN still hit for max ... It just needs to roll well on it's hitdice.

Okay ... This is an extreem example but it illustrates the problem with Ro's debuffs. It doesn't prevent "spike" damage. Spike damage is why CH is started at 80% rather than at the Kunark 20% health level. Ro's does nothing to change this. You still need to cast at 80% on the off chance that a mob rolls well.

I don't want to eliminate Ro's. What I want is a new spell that complements Ro's. A spell that debuffs max damage but does nothing to ATK. This spell is aggro balanced because a druid would NEED to cast not only a max melee debuff but the Ro's atk debuff to gain the same effectiveness as slows.

P.S.
As far as aggro is concerned, slow has as much aggro as Hand of Ro. Toss in illumination and a druid is at 2X the aggro level as the shaman. Toss in Touch of Eci (max damage debuff) and the druid is at 3X the aggro level as the shaman to get the same effectiveness as Turgur's Insects.

KatrishBattlevixen ST
06-10-2003, 09:00 AM
edit - good comments, wrong thread. Moved.

Autumn10
06-10-2003, 09:01 AM
I have a couple suggestions to add that I think would make us more desirable for groups and spruce the druid class up in general. I'm not even sure if they're feasible but here it goes:

Swarm Spell(for lack of a name) - a spell that's graphically like a dot but with a fixed number of insects. They could all be bees, wasps, or hornets(making each one a separate kind of insect type might be a little too intense on graphics). Each of the insects has a different effect on the mob. One could mitigate it's attack, one could lower it's armor class, another could damage, etc. Of course you would have to keep the effects in reason as far as the severity to keep it from becoming too powerful but I think something like that would be cool.

Debuff DoT - How about one of the things like damage mitigation or lowering armor class mentioned already but in dot form? I know we already have some of these in the form of the fire debuff dots but take that to the next level. For the duration the mob would get it's attack, AC(or whatever) lowered each tick. Of course here again you would have to be reasonable with the amount but I think it's doable.

Summoned Foods - the baking skill foods kind of water this down but it still might work. Give druids spells that summon a few different kinds of fruits or vegetables that give an instant boost to something, whether it be stats, damage for melees, increase to heals, etc. Of course they would be no rent, no drop, and lore. I know this kind of overlaps with the mage summoned things somewhat but the bonuses the foods give could be different than the mage stuff.

Fog Spell - A spell that would be like a quick cast, short duration, small area mez. Not enough to compete with enchanters or take away from them, only complement them. This way the druid could lock down mobs fast allowing the enchanter to get off his much better, longer lasting, and more reliable crowd control spells. It wouldn't last long enough to be anything other than a way to control those bad pulls that come up too fast for the enchanter to react or get his real mez off. Consider it 'patch mezzing'. :p

I put my views on the things already proposed at the bottom so that my suggestions wouldn't be buried. People might have lost interest in what I had to say by the time they reached my proposals. :p

Damage/Attack Mitigation - I like the notion of druids having the ability to mitigate damage or attack, only improved over what we got in some of the new PoP debuffs. That's something that wouldn't impinge on shaman's slow and yet complement them very well. This one should be near the top of the list.

SotW Refresh Timer - I agree it's too slow. I'm not sure if I agree with 5 minutes but 10 for sure. Right now it helps against PoP boss mobs but depending on how many targets a guild hits on a raid and how fast it can be of pretty limited use. It would be a lot more helpful in the grouping aspect also if we don't ever get a group heal, which leads to my next point.

Group Heals - If I had to pick just ONE thing to give to druids it would be this. Now if you increased SotW to 5 minutes it could almost take it's place but I don't think SotW should recycle quite that fast. We have needed a group heal forever. Nothing's more frustrating or taxing on a druid to deal with as far as healing than AE's, and we get a LOT of them to deal with in PoP. Very nasty ones. This would make druids eminently more group worthy and help us on raids immensely. I know it's supposed to be a thread more about grouping alone(or am I wrong?) but I think our raid aspect needs improved also.

Resurrection - No way. 90% would be way too much. That would leave clerics out in the cold big time. Sure people would rather have a 96% but with the exp in PoP who really needs it? To get a res even close to the cleric one while getting snare and nukes, etc. from a druid? Clerics would be getting screwed for sure. Not to mention there's more druids than clerics, so a group isn't going to bother waiting for or trying to find a cleric when druids with a res almost as good as clerics are a lot more handy.

Mobs With Runspeed Immunity - This was a stupid concept from day one. A cheap illogical way of kicking us in the proverbial 'soloing' shins. Even in the group aspect it's a pain because if the mobs can and do flee but can't be snared there's no point in having a druid for snaring.

Indoor Restrictions - I would like to see a few less of these but from what I saw someone say it seemed as if they wanted ALL of them done away with. I think that would be a little overpowering and take away from some of the 'outdoors' aspect of the druid class. Maybe this could be turned into an AA ability? Don't allow it to effect all spells but pick out which ones would be unbalancing to cast indoors. It could either be set up to affect all the spells allowed with a one shot high AA point cost(like exodus or DC) or tiered to affect a certain line of allowed spells with each level.

Harmony - It should be upgraded back or near to what it was. This gives us the option of being a puller in a group, or at least working in conjunction with the puller to use against those clumps of mobs that are so prevalent.

Healing Gift - I don't care honestly. I have never found this ability to be much help anyway because you can't count on it. It's relegated to being a pleasant surprise when it hits but I like the consistency of Healing Adept much better. If we need the glamour of crit messages to get groups than we're in bigger trouble than we think.

Spell Casting Subtlety - I agree with this. With the aggro we get from debuffs, nukes, and now heals it would help a lot. If we can contribute to the group without getting the smackdown every 5 seconds we would be a lot more groupable. Groups usually don't like to have to res a member every 5 seconds. Sure there are ways of getting around the aggro but it takes away from the DPS or healing we add because we have to hold back in fear of getting the mob's attention.

Karana's Renewal Cast Time - I think it should be reduced. It's great we have such a heal but we still sometimes get overlooked because we might not get that cheal off quite in time.

Elemental Buffs - I like this not only on a practical level but it also adds a blend of roleplaying. I'll admit it sounds more like a mage thing on the surface because of the 'elemental' aspect but I like the thought of having a different buff for each elemental venue. Maybe it could be changed to Wind of the North, South, East, West or something(while changing the ports of the same name). Each wind would have a different effect(the ones listed sound pretty good to me).

The Druid Pet - I'm not sure about this one. It sounds good but as it relates to grouping or getting groups I don't see much of a correlation. We have charming to get a pet worthy of adding to a group. You would have to jack the bear up so much that it would overpower us in other areas, like soloing or farming. Not to mention we already have a lesser pet we use in groups anyway, it's called DC. I don't really think we need DC pets added either as long as I'm on the subject.

surtahn
06-10-2003, 09:06 AM
Ok I only 2 box a druid. One spell line that I hardly use any more is Damage Shield. As has been said many times, after slow this just becomes poor though not entirely useless.

So what about a regenerative DS? I don't mean healing like Mark of Karn, but rather one that starts out much higher than our current DS per hit and then loses strength with each subsequent hit, i.e. thorns being flattened. The damage would then go back up over time(quickly) as long as the target is not being hit, i.e. thorns springing back. Slowed mobs would get fewer big hits and unslowed mobs would get more small hits.

I think this is better than the %hit from mob since even the % solution is negatively affected by slow. Less hits regardless of size still means less damage from the DS.

Maybe a combination of the two would be good.

Just a thought..

L1ndara
06-10-2003, 09:09 AM
<strong>I'd like to see the "druid mastery of the outdoors" restored.</strong>

I really think they need to drop the outdoor distinction, and not just because the next expansion is "Lost DUNGEONS of Norrath." Being able to cast something like Carless Lightning indoors and not Whirling Wind or Fist of Karana is, well, silly. Likewise losing wolf form just because you step inside cave is likewise silly. And what makes Harmony of Nature work outdoors but not in? The sun and the moon beating down, well it wouldn't work in forests either then, trees, well shouldn't work in skyfire or VP...

I also really fail to see why there needs to be a tree for there to be nature. Just because something is underground doesn't mean it's suddenly "unnatureal." Moles and worms need hugs too.

<strong>3) Animal Only Rez 90%</strong>

Humans ARE animals... And lets not forget plants while we're at it. If "nature" is defined by trees and grass druids should be able to rez the poor dead treants. Druids can charm them and beat up newbies with them after all.

Braxus
06-10-2003, 09:09 AM
I'd like to see a Group Succor that is instant cast upon detection of death of a character and that character zones out at 1hp (along with the rest of the group, at the standard mana use penalties). I'd also like to see an increase in healing potential, but through over-time or massively upgrading our regen capabilities. I am talking even get the regen up so high that it can actually mitigate some damage in PoP. Because you have made slow so necessary in PoP you have eliminated need for the entire line of DS. It's useless now.

Hexxal
06-10-2003, 09:12 AM
as much as i like the idea of another class being able to slow (which takes us closer to the ideal of any two priests being as good at healing a group as any other two), it doesn't pass the smell test for me because it seems like druids having slow would have their charm soloing boosted in more cases than their actual grouping. i don't think druids need to be better soloers, if any change is made it has to have way more impact on their grouping than on their soloing ability.

along those lines, i'd like to propose a some lines of buffs and debuffs that would be increase the power of a group more than just one individual :

1. Gift of Karana : the power of storms is harnessed to give a player a boost in nuking power. a 30-45 minute buff that increases nuke damage randomly by 1-20%, as well as raising the chance of criticals by 2%. AE spells excluded. as it is a 600 mana group buff, using it on oneself while soloing is costly.

2. Plague of Tunare : the power of nature weakens a monster's immunities and renders them more susceptible to damage. resistances of all types are lowered 5% and all attacks (melee and spell, DD and DoT) do 5% more damage. i don't think there is a mana cost that makes this more or less worthwhile in a group vs soloing, but since this would stack with everything it seems to me it would always at least be as worthwhile for both situations. this would be an excellent raid debuff, but unfortunately unless it has a high resistance rate only provides a roll for one caster. since i've seen how poorly the aggro rates are tuned on the existing druid debuffs, i think this should not have nearly their aggro rate.

anyway, just two more ideas for the idea bin.

Gaeaen
06-10-2003, 09:25 AM
edit - good comments, wrong thread. moved.

fernwick
06-10-2003, 09:34 AM
A few ideas (some of which may have been mentioned already):

1) 90% rez, similar to a pally's

2) A better summonable pet

3) Better shapeshifting. Instead of a so-so wolf and a worthless tree, why can't druids turn into, say, birds or fish for scouting areas, or rocks for defensive purposes?

Fern

Demasia
06-10-2003, 09:36 AM
This is an idea that I believe is outside the parameters of what Absor wanted in terms of ease of implementation. But it is alternative solution to addressing the "rez" factor in druids' group desirability.

We have had the Succor line for 4 years and because of the spell, I would guess that most people associate "succor" with some sort of teleportation. However the meaning of "succor" has to do with providing help or relief to someone or something and not neccessarily by means of teleportation.

Suppose druids received a level 56 spell that was a group only buff that lasted 2-3 hrs and had a mana cost that would use all of the mana of most 56 druids. This Succor buff would suspend damage and aggro to any group member upon reaching 1 hit point. Additionally, the group member would be in a stasis for ten minutes (like Fear) unable to move, cast or even regen mana and hit points during that time.

The mechanics of it are probably beyond my understanding of programming. But, perhaps the buff could be implemented as a "rune" that isn't used until the rest of the character's runes and hit points are used up. Once the 1000 hit point (or whatever it takes to assure a hit doesn't kill the character while activating the buff) Succor buff is hit, it activates the Succor effect instantly.

Again, I think this may be more complicated than what Absor is looking for. It does address the group desirability issue though and is consistant with what druids have always offered groups. Simply put, it would return to the game an alternative to CRs and "rezzes".

Edit: I think Demasia's Succor has a great ring to it for name :cool: Well, at least for the sake of discussion reference.

Murias
06-10-2003, 10:26 AM
I've read through most, but not all of the posts (just don't have time atm), but here's what would make me happy.

1. Harmony - Please fix this. My understanding all along was that harmony was outdoor only because it would be overpowering indoors. Have you ever seen an enchanter pacify all the way to the Royals in Chardok? I have. If that's not overpowered and bypassing content, I don't know what is. (NOTE: This is NOT a call to nerf any other class's pacify/lull spells, just illustrating a point).

2. Make Healing Gift work with our big heals. This has been said and I'm saying it again.

3. Spell casting subtlety. (This isn't a thread about shamans, but for god's sake, give it to them as well.)

4. Summon Companion for DC pets - This would be a dream come true, not just for druids, but for necros and enchanters as well.

5. I really liked the idea of a short duration mini-slow for when slow gets resisted. A resist on slow is just ugly.

Overall, I am happy with my druid. I'd like to think of some really neat thing to make us wanted in groups, but I'm just not feeling that creative today.

fronithunderpaws
06-10-2003, 11:03 AM
OK was trying to get an idea of some of the effects that are in the game that aren't covered by some classes skills or spells (or tried to). Idea being if the effect exists it may not be a horrible coding job to become a spell/ability.

Player based focus effects:
Mage summoned focus items:
reagent conservation 15%
extended buff 15%
damage spell mana conservation 15%
spell haste 15%
increase direct damage 20%

Cleric blessing line:
spell haste 10%

Shaman awareness potions:
mana conservation 5% (based on resist type or beneficial)

Other focus effects on items not covered by player abilities (for the most part):
1) improved healing - very useful for groups, not overbalancing for solo, we try not to get hit while soloing (at least I don't).
2) extended range - good for pulling and soloing, but may skew balance
3) extended affliction/spell duration (e.g. time burn) on detrimental spells it skews balance, beneficial spells would be covered by extended buff
4) summoning/reanimation efficiency - not overwhelmingly helpful

So maybe at least an improved healing buff focus ing spell and potentially some of the other focus effects used in such a way to not reduce mage contribution. I would love to be able to improve the damage of other class spells, but something like an improved damage buff would have to be tuned to not overbalance soloing - sigh.

Came across the focus effect Innoruuk's sarcasm which is decreases spell/bash hate 40% self-only (Inny's Irony does 80% reduction but not on a known item) and is on two enchanter only weapons. Compare with Glamorous Visage and Horrifying Visage that decrease/increase aggro multiplier 10% and last 36 seconds (as well as Mem Blur, Mem Flux, Boggle, and the SK terror lines). Would it be stepping on enchanters feet to have a tuned up but similar spell line buff (or maybe let necromancers handle the increase of aggro)? The spells would be useless in a solo situation, but would let us be a big help in aggro direction and support the other caster classes by helping to mitigate their aggro. I could even see how this would fit in a roleplay scheme as scenting the target with either Karana's Rain Fresh Scent or Tunare's Tropical Blossom Breezes. (Necromancers would get the stinky scent spells to increase aggro - Bertie's Rotting Flesh, Cazic's Scent of Fear, Inny's "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful" aka Old Spice)

Beyond focus effects the other equipment effects tend to be replication of spells of various classes. So another idea is to give us the ability to make some of our spell lines into targettable procs for the melee's weapons. One that comes to mind readily is the Ro ATK debuff line since we have some trouble using it because of aggro even though it is far inferior in damage mitigation than slow spells. So.... making it into a castable proc effect lets the tanks take the aggro and see the benefit of the ATK debuff - would need to be tuned to be a bigger debuff and short duration as a proc. Adding other weapon procs for different situations would also seem to be in line with helping other classes without helping our solo ability, things like flaming swords, and lightning hammers, icicle daggers, and even bee shooters.

And tuning up some spells would help to as a number of people have mentioned:
Improvement and tuning of ATK debuff's - need to reduce aggro generation in line with other debuffs and slows, and somehow tune for groups versus charmed pets.
Improvement and tuning of DS (both druid and mage) - maybe with a higher damage proc effect (only castable on PC's not pets) or with a percentage damage reflection back onto attacker.

Naathan Kaine
06-10-2003, 11:12 AM
I didnt bother reading this whole mess so if someone mentioned it I am sorry.

I would ask that the lvl 58 heal spells get moved down to the 55 area. Right now at level 56 my druid is lacking highly in the healing department. Getting groups at his level isnt even remotely easy. Most of you already know what I think about the level 65 druid, but my concerns are about the lower level one.

Healing is highly lacking in that mid to low 50's area of the game for druids.

Edit< a group heal even equal to paly's would be nice>

Demasia
06-10-2003, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><span style="font-size:x-small;">1. I know this kind of <strong>overlaps with the mage</strong> summoned things somewhat but the bonuses the foods give could be different than the mage stuff.
2. A spell that would be like a quick cast, short duration, small area mez. <strong>Not enough to compete with enchanters</strong> or take away from them, only complement them
3. I like the notion of druids having the ability to mitigate damage or attack, only improved over what we got in some of the new PoP debuffs. That's something that <strong>wouldn't impinge on shaman's slow</strong> and yet complement them very well. This one should be near the top of the list.
4. <strong>To get a res even close to the cleric one while getting snare and nukes, etc. from a druid? Clerics would be getting screwed for sure.</strong> Not to mention there's more druids than clerics, so a group isn't going to bother waiting for or trying to find a cleric when druids with a res almost as good as clerics are a lot more handy.
5. Healing Gift - I don't care honestly. I have never found this ability to be much help anyway because you can't count on it. It's relegated to being a pleasant surprise when it hits but I like the consistency of Healing Adept much better.
6. I'll admit it <strong>sounds more like a mage thing</strong> on the surface because of the 'elemental' aspect but I like the thought of having a different buff for each elemental venue.
7. I don't really think we need DC pets added either as long as I'm on the subject.</span>[/quote]

So move in on shaman, mage and enchanter/bard territory because it is only kind of, complementary or only on the surface? But to approach an ability "even close to the cleric" and the clerics "would be getting screwed for sure"?

Maybe all the trolling on these threads has made me a bit cynical, but I suspect this was written by someone with more intimate interests in clerics than druids. Although, at least there was obviously some thought and effort put into the post. I feel guilty for having said it, but it is what I suspect.

Glarnor
06-10-2003, 03:53 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Came across the focus effect Innoruuk's sarcasm which is decreases spell/bash hate 40% self-only (Inny's Irony does 80% reduction but not on a known item) and is on two enchanter only weapons.[/quote]

The Innoruuk's Sarcasm and probably the Irony too are (currently and probably will always be) enc-only focus that applies to spells which has poison counters. In other words, it's a significant hate reduction on their tash line only.

gamilenka
06-10-2003, 03:54 PM
1. -Upgrading direct damage spells to be equal, or close to it, to magician direct damage.

-This would be balanced in that, we only do the same dd damage, and neither takes anything from the other in that. The same amount of damage should be for the same mana, if the spells are only dd and no other effects accompany that damage.

-Magicians keep their great pets, and can summon all the great items (including players) that they are known for.

-Druids still have their heals and buffs they can share.

-I would not like to see this implemented at the cost of large amounts of mana over what magicians use on their spells. The same amount of damage should be for the same mana, if the spells are only dd and no other effects accompany that damage.

2. -Faster working swarm DoT spells. I like the damage they do, and they are more mana efficient.

-They are a good line, but in many instances, they are too slow to be of a great use in
a group.

-I'm not saying make them as strong as the necro or shaman ones, just a bit faster.

-I feel that shaving several seconds off a couple would make the damage more desired.

-Fire DoT for druid are great, but get resisted in many environments.

-The obvious way around the resists, is to use your debuffs.

-Extreme aggro from the druid debuffs has long been a complaint as well. With that in mind, many druids will not see that as a viable solution.

Iilane SalAlur
06-10-2003, 04:11 PM
We all know that DS in PoP era is next to meaningless due to its low returns compared to the amount PoP mobs hit for. How about adding some AA and/or focus items that improves DS? Make it open to all DS classes, not just druids.

For example, an AA called "Retribution" that increases DS damage by 20/50/100%.
Or a focus effect that allows "crit" DS damage?

Another variation might be a DS spell that does lesser damage but adds aggro everytime the target is hit. This spell could be part of the solution to improve warrior's aggroing abilities AND improves our desirability at the same time.

Daddun
06-10-2003, 04:32 PM
perhaps give our self ac/ds buffs an agro reducing component.

gamilenka
06-10-2003, 06:45 PM
--Curse was a nice idea though. Notice theres absolutely no curse resist spells? Interesting egh. Probably intential however if something new like this was introduced again and added to reguar aswell as boss mobs whats stopping druids from getting it as a primary ability to cure/buff/debuff? and maybe another lesser wanted class secondary (a lesser version).--

Curse would seem to be a viable point. Curses are something today I think most people would associate with witchcraft/voodoo type of things. In this game, druids are more of a 'witch' type character, but are not necessarily evil as in other games.

Because of that, I think a resistance to curses would be a good buff for druids to have. Curse spells also, but I'm thinking more in the line of the anti buffs. Would it help get a group? Probably not much, but it is a good point I think.

Tenidina Wyndrunner
06-10-2003, 07:08 PM
I know a great AA skill that would not only serve druids well, but other classes. We have Hastened Exodus, so do Wizards, How about something like hastened DC, for those times you die with a DC pet or go LD, etc.

tanyenwoodelf
06-10-2003, 11:23 PM
Edit - good comments, wrong thread. moved.

Kiramisu
06-11-2003, 12:22 AM
Had I known 2 years ago when I created m Druid that I would spend countless hours LFG from lvl 50 on, I may not have chosen that char. That was when Ports made a difference.

I did some research, Seems Druids have the Buff Lines on Hp and some limited Str. The Shamans got Agi and Dex. We both have powerful DoTs They got better SoW ( has atk attached).
We both do healing. We both root .Druids got one pet spell and the ability to charm animals. Shaman Have a Pet Line that kicks butt AND they can charm animals.Seems Druids got ports (now rendered mostly useless) and Shaman got Slow and Haste...Canni too..

I'd like to see Druids Slow and Haste. That or the ability to Rezz.

willain
06-11-2003, 02:16 AM
I'd just like to weigh in my opinion. For background, I'm a 52 druid on Xev, small guild, yada yada yada.

First, I'd like to echo the statements made that AA points are a bad way to address problems that are evident from level 40 onwards. We simply bring very little to the table through the 40s and 50s, and AAs would not address this. If anything, an AA fix would encourage the "go off and solo for XP as fast as possible to get levels and abilities" and add to the perception that we don't group.

That being said, I think we need a way to mitigate damage more effectively (whoo, really going out on a limb there). A slow would be the simplest way, although I was working overdrive lastnight and came up with many exotic alternatives that probably couldn't be implemented. However, I don't want slow. I don't want yet another watered-down skill from someone else. I want to see our ATK debuff line - the Ro's spells I've been buying, and using, but not entirely sure why - provide a significant and _obvious_ reduction in the damage output of a mob. Maybe it could even "reflect" the damage back at the mob - reducing a mobs DPS and giving ours a slight boost. Don't let it stack with slow, but let them overwrite each other, to build in a little more variety and strategy (i.e., use slow til 50%, start unloading with nukes, then debuff, hit SotW if you have it, and voila, dead mob). Tuning this would be primarily by playing with the mitigation amount and the spell duration. I think the simplest approach would be for the mitigation to be a percentage, and to add a line of spam saying "the fires of Ro reflect damage XX" - sure, it'll soon be turned off or routed to another window, but people can see it if they like, and will immediately know what we've done. I think the duration should be a minute or so - keeping it short will minimize its use as a soloing device, while long enough to last a fight in a grouped encounter.

I think this gives us something a little different, and the visibility will help our overall class perception. It still won't be an ideal form of mitigation, but would expand the options available for the "crowd control" slot. I would like the mitigation to be great enough such that with a couple druids in a group, one could debuff/patch heal, and the other could be the main healer.

Problems I see: if a caster gets aggro, he/she's may go down more quickly because the mob is unslowed. Solution: fix the DS aggro, and assign it to the wearer of the shield. With no slow on a mob, it would be silly to not keep a DS up (btw, I fully support a boost to the DS by way of percentage amounts, or focus items). Plus, I envision a group requiring one additional healer beyond a the debuffing druid, which should be enough to overcome this.

Other problems: I don't think this would upset soloing too much, although it might provide a way for us to take out some of those novelty mobs we avoid due to summoning. (By upset, I mean give us much extra power).

Another concern: in the case of a group wipeout, you're still left without rezzes and buffs, and starting from scratch. I'd like to see an expansion of the availability of rezzes, but <strong>not</strong> by giving us the ability. At most, I'd like the ability to suspend the rez timer, allowing my group to get back to business and to worry about the rezzing later. Also, why not have a central site PoTranq at which you could get an NPC rez - less than 96%, maybe 85% or so, with extended rez effects, and a cost. It should work by bringing the corpse back to you (is that possible?), although sending you to your corpse would work also. Having it in PoTranq, rather than PoK, would limit its use to higher level characters (who bought PoP, $$$).

Anyway, time to wrap this up. In short:
1) Let us use existing spells to mitigate damage obviously and significantly.
2) Let DS work for the wearer, by building aggro.
3) Create ways to boost the damage of a DS.
4) Create an NPC rezzer with disadvantages over clerics, but effective noentheless.

I think the damage mitigation is an immediate concern. The others are more of a wish list, although with the next expansion promoting dungeons, they my become more of an issue. Thanks for reading, if you've made it this far.

EliyasOnKarana
06-11-2003, 05:07 AM
The biggest challenge in making druids more viable in a group is doing it in such a way that:

1) doesn't require nerfing other classes
2) doesn't result in another class being deemed less desirable
3) doesn't unbalance the game (adding too much DPS for instance)

Keeping these things in mind, here are my suggestions that would make Druids more group friendly:

SUGGESTIONS:

1) Create a new line of group buff spells that prevent group members from being summoned and knocked back by mobs. It would be a short duration group spell and would result in the PCs being "rooted" for the duration. Huge benefit and huge drawback, but I can see uses for this. Having the root effect would definitely make Druids think twice before using this to solo. At lower level make it a single target spell, and group at higher level. Make it so it cannot be TGB (making multiple druids desirable on a raid), but reward Druids with enough AA to use with MGB.
Advantage: Prevent non-melee's from being summoned for a short period of time or interrupted due to knock-back. Disadvantage: PCs are rooted in place for duration of spell
Name suggestion: Roots of Bedrock (Single), Roots of Earth(Group)

2) Create a line of spells that would give a chance of a spell "bouncing." Similar to DS doing damage on melee attacks, have this spell do full/partial damage to mob if PC resists. If mob resists, have the spell bounce back to intended target, and repeat. Each time doing less damage until the spell has attenuated.
Advantage: Possible damage to mob.
Disadvantage: possible (though reduced) damage to PC even after a successful resist check.
Name suggestion: Windshield(single target), Wall of Wind (group)

Prindan
06-11-2003, 08:07 AM
I only have one suggestion to make. I think we would be much more desirable in groups raid or otherwise, if natures infusion was to get a lowered casting time. Natures Infusion is the only spell I use to heal with and I think that is the case for many high lvl druid players. If the Casting time were dropped to 1.8 or 2.0 it would be so much better at contributing in groups as a backup healer. Lots of times I find myself trying to save the cleric in my group only to find they can heal the group and themselves faster then I can get off my 4.0 Natures infusion.

~Prindan Beoulve 65 Druid of Fury's Edge~

Autumn10
06-11-2003, 08:40 AM
The anti-summoning skill or spell has been something I have mulled over in my head too. I can see how it could easily be abused though even if it was group only. It would require a way to keep it in check so that we aren't going around soloing boss mobs that we shouldn't be.

Jinpo
06-11-2003, 10:19 AM
edit - as true as it might be that melee need upgrades, it has nothing to do with the subject.

VERY LOW SODIUM
06-11-2003, 10:46 AM
An extention to the succor and tree form spell lines. "Safe Haven" or "Sanctuary" = creates a safe and benificial pocket dimension for adventurers to rest in. Essentially roots all group members, makes them unable to target anyone outside their group or cast offensive spells, makes all monsters ignore the group, everyone in the group would essentially be immune to all damage (such as area effects) for the duration, HP and MP regen rates would increase, and the spell would last for a set amount of time... maybe 1-2 minutes.

Or a single target, group only version.

FyyrLuStorm
06-11-2003, 11:18 AM
Essentially Group DA, right?

VERY LOW SODIUM
06-11-2003, 11:36 AM
except you are rooted and ignored by monsters. Basicly a way to succor without fighting your way back in. The duration would have to be enforced... no clicking the buff off. Buff duration would have to be linked to an expiration time on the server clock instead of clicks, to prevent any funny re-logging issues. Anyone rezed by a rez-er in the pocket dimension would enter into the pocket dimension with the same safe-haven-timer as the rez-er. Spell should probably be fairly expensive... 1500-2000 at a guess. Upon exiting the safe haven, any formorly aggroed monsters might remember the party (25% chance), and if remembered the hate list should be reset to a constant for each member in the group (probably bumping everyone in the group up to the highest member's hate level pre-spell). Engine would probably need some tweaking to allow for something like this... but I shouldn't think it overly difficult.

Edit: playing with the idea a bit.

Nuvian Caelestis
06-11-2003, 12:48 PM
No idea if it was said since I'm not about to read all these pages but:

Make Nature's Recovery a group spell and make it last a decent amount of time (15 minutes imo)

Weoden
06-11-2003, 01:29 PM
Hi guys, read the first 7 pages then did not come back for a day and now there are 11 pages. LOL


Anyway, I think I was the first to suggest a spell that acts like weakness/cripple/ro line spells to significantly reduce the damage taken by a pc but does not stack with slow. The shaman and enchanters get and do not use the weakness/cripple line due to their ineffectiveness. I think this would enhance a druids desirability in a 6 person group.

-> note the minimum and max damage would be reduce noticably. This damage reduction would have to be in line with an enchanter's slow which is noted at 67% reduction in speed for forlon deeds on lucy. This would serve a few purposes. First damage shield would be more effective and second the agro from that shield would be increased. This spell could be limited to non boss mobs or maybe even capped for appropiate level mobs.

Other suggestion:
This is a long standing issue. Make potg/bot9 the same type buff as focus but without the str/dex but keeping mana regen and hp and ac. In addition, bring back the nature skin line of regen + ac + hp which would stack with potg.

Fayrlorn
06-11-2003, 03:34 PM
The thing to keep in mind is the ability to make druids more group friendly without stepping on existing other class abilities or increase their solo power. This might sound odd, but why not an innate ability for druids to draw upon the primal essence of nature itself and channel that to help their groupmates in different ways? Don't put it in the buff box, but the song box as a constant pulse - so as long as the druid is in the group all members benefit from the druids presence as long as they were in the same area. A druid would not gain the benefit of their own channeling, but would get it from another druid if they were grouped. Something like this:

Essence of Fire - spells that get a failed resist check are given a second check *or* all direct damage spells/dots would have a small chance to fork (Xyelm suggested something like this, her idea, not mine) so it would be possible to get a chain cast (the chances would have to be low, but still, great incentive for dd casters to nab a druid). Proccing damage weapons would also be included.

Essence of Water - all hit point regeneration spell buffs are tripled (maybe more maybe less, would not work on hots or bard healing songs, but would stack with them - shaman and necros would love ya) *or* all healing spells get a small % boost (5%? 10% seems a bit much, but somewhere along those lines).

Essence of Earth - increase the melee damage of everyone in the group. Hybrids, priests and casters 2%. Pure melee would get a 4% damage increase and a 5% damage reduction on all damage taken (spell, melee, aoe) *or* a base 10% reduction in damage and duration on all negative spell effects against party members (including aoe).

Essence of Wind - all non-tradeskill/offensive skills get a 3-5% boost (taking them over the cap). Would work on defensive skills like dodge, block, parry *or* has a small % chance to lower block incoming damage completely (ie emulates at a low level or increases slightly the skill block for all party members).

Primal Nature - Pure melee essence only. Monks special attacks have a small percentage to chain (like the spell has chance to fork) and a 25% chance to ignore all riptose damage, Warriors have a bonus hate added to their taunt (maybe their level added to the hate value, so instead of taunt = aggro of highest aggro in group +1 it would be = aggro of highest aggro in group +1 + warrior level - this is tough though since it could inbalance raids - warriors definately need something though), and Rogues would have a 50% chance of ignoring a riptose damage and maybe a 1% chance to chain backstab.

The druid would have a refresh timer if he/she wanted to switch from one essence to another (say 15 minutes). Essences wouldn't be able to double up either (no two druids channeling the same essence to get double the effect).

The above were just quick ideas, not my attempt to increase druids power above other classes. The abilities themselves would obviously need tweeking as far as the power range goes, but I think the idea itself is sound. 1) It makes druids much more attractive to group with without significantly increasing their solo power or dramatically shifting the groups power. 2) It doesn't take away any druid ability currently and the druid is free to do his or her on thing while in the group while giving them the channeling benefits. 3) Pure melee would/should benefit the most from one or two of the channeling - giving them a boost too, making groups seek them out all the more. 3) It would mean druids would have their own niche and could get a group without worrying about competing against a specialized class. 4) It encourages druids to group, something SOE wants.

Just a thought.

Kelwyn Solanaceae Fayrlorn Solanaceae
65 Ranger of E'ci 60 Cleric of E'ci

Solice Farwalker
06-11-2003, 11:43 PM
Ok, Druids want to be needed in groups. I don't think we should strive to replace any of the "Holy Trinity." Instead we should be striving to be part of the "Fantastic Four."

I keep hearing good suggestions that are then ruined by finishing with "of course this should not be as good as x's spell and should not stack with it either."

Well, we won't be desired in groups if that is the case. We need to compliment what others bring to the table. What we do should add to the group and that means "stacking" in one way or another.

Now for my thoughts on the subject:

1) Healing is pretty much where it should be. It could always be tweaked a bit but why bother?

2) We should have some form of damage mitigation. I don't believe this should be in the form of a slow (slows are already taken care of). I envision something more along the lines of a buff that will enhance damage avoidance. Perhaps a spell that will allow a tank to dodge like the very devil.

3) Control of motion has always been the Druids most defining skill. An AA skill that allows us to snare/root mobs that are immune to run speed changes combined with point 2 should earn us a spot in groups.

4) Rez = ROFL

No, I don't think this will make us overpowered or better able to solo.

Our soloing "damage avoidance" is to keep out of reach of the mob :) so a spell that increases the ablility to dodge wouldn't really do much for us personally.

By the same standard, the mobs that are immune to run speed changes seem to be able to summon, so we will want to be in a group when we put the brakes on those puppies.

Demasia
06-12-2003, 04:41 AM
Idea: (posted on Rez thread)

Give clerics a spell that casts Rez Rods (a la Mod Rods). Cleris who used to raise plat to buy spells by casting HoV/Aego could replace that lost revenue casting Rez Rods.

1. Targeted cast and No Drop, but stackable.
2. A cleric without an epic would be able to make rods for own use during downtime.
3. Instead of dragging corpses to a cleric in another group to donate for rez, a player uses a Rez Rod that he bought prior to embarking to dungeon X with his group.

Just another idea. I do still think Succor should be upgraded in some fashion like rezzes have been and Succoring doesn't end the adventure, level 65 pallies should have the level 56 cleric rez, the necro rez should be adjusted to be more viable, Shaman be able to make a rez potion that is affordable and SKs receive the necro rez ability at a later level.

AzariahTunare
06-12-2003, 06:13 AM
I like this idea that someone posted:
We should have some form of damage mitigation. I don't believe this should be in the form of a slow (slows are already taken care of). I envision something more along the lines of a buff that will enhance damage avoidance. Perhaps a spell that will allow a tank to dodge like the very devil.

Also, I feel that druids can now heal sufficiently in a group. The challenge is a cleric is still wanted due to rezzing abilities. That is class-defining for them, so don't think druids should get a rez per say. What about giving us a spell that:
-Brings the person back to the zone in front of their body (similar to a 0% rez)
-Then delays the rez timer for a set amount of time - say 4 hours - so they can continue to group but not lose their ability to get a rez at a later point? Thus delaying the immediate need for a cleric in the group?

Azariah

Brodybeard
06-12-2003, 09:07 AM
I'm just tossing out some quick ideas -- unfortunately, my highest level character is a 48th level druid, so I have not experienced the high-end game yet.

The 44th level quested healing spell, <em>Healing Waters</em>, is a real PITA to obtain at, say... <strong>44th level</strong>! The quest pieces should be added to more mobs or moved to easier mobs.

I happen to like the group <em>Gate</em> spell idea. Expand the role of druid into being the group scout. The druid uses their skills to travel to some hard-to-reach zone and then returns to bring the rest of their party there.

A line of <strong>reverse</strong> focus effect spells. Cast <em>Reduced Range</em> on a spell-casting mob to reduce their spell casting range. Other spells to increase spell casting time, reduce spell damage, increase mana use, reduce healing efficiency, etc.

I just thought of a crazy one, maybe too powerful. A <em>Call Wild Horses</em> spell that would summon a horse for each party member. It would need some careful restrictions to keep it from being too powerful, like the horses would go away if the druid leaves the group and the horses can't zone, etc.

Madai
06-12-2003, 10:01 AM
The biggest problem for me nowadays is aggro control. there are situations now, both in raid and in group, where I simply can't afford to do any extra damage lest I catch aggro.

1.) What I think would be cool is kind of oneshot rune-like buff to cast on tanks, that heal/mitgates damage and causes damage to the mob when the rune is expended.

2.) Of course, 15 buff slots is getting to be not enough. Either spells have to be combined, or the number of buff slots will have to be extended. I prefer the buff comboing.

Ench: all in one haste/MR/KEI
Druid: FR/CR+8 mana/tick + regen + some HP (stacks with cleric stuff)
Cleric: spell haste+virtue
Shamam: Focus+ other stats+ PR/DR

etc... with less competition for buff slots, there will be more room for short-term things like HoTs, SotW, SK taps, Mindwrack, monster's dots and debuffs etc.

I imagine each of these being centered around quests with cool lore.

3. one uncharted area for druids is combat-oriented reagent-based spells. bonus if the reagents are foraged items. Rabbits are swift and dodgey, perhaps use rabbit meat as aggro mitigation reagent?

One reason clerics are percieved as more valuable is because of the added expenses of hauling around peridot and whatnot. Clerics spend 10pp to give people more hitpoints. Druid spend 18 pp to stop the rain. what a friggin joke.

EtalRaveneye
06-12-2003, 10:07 AM
What if druids were provided with a Mana Shield spell? A mana shield would basically be a level 50+ buff not castable on targets less than 46, perhaps even 50. Once cast on a target, both the target and the druid would have a buff icon that could be turned off. The druid would loose mana proportionally to the amount damage taken by the target. The target would have the benefit of being instantly healed. In order to make sure that this ability was not to powerful, the ratio would be expensive, maybe 1 hp of damage would cost 2 points of mana, however, as you leveled the spells would get more efficient.

PoP requires that Enchanters, Shamans and Clerics cast their spells at very inconvenient times generating a ton of agro. When they are agroed they tend to die very quickly, and many times before the secondary healer can hit them with a quick heal. This would provide druids with a unique and definitive role as effective secondary healers in a group. I know my Enchanter would beg to have a druid in the group if they had this spell.

Laeyakk
06-12-2003, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Protection of Tunare:
400 mana, 10 second casting time, heals 2 k hps and places a 2 k 30% mitigating runeshield on the target, duration 10 ticks.

A 30% mitigating runeshield soaks 30% of all damage to the target until the total is reached.[/quote]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Both of the first two seem to be skills already covered on some level...

Runes already pretty abundant, and can't see us getting one larger than enchanters have (even getting one at all really).[/quote]

It is a pseudo-rune. It absorbs a % of damage delt, not all of it. This makes it behave differently than other runes.

If you want druids to be non crappy healers in PoP, they need some means of mitigating damage done by mobs.

Doing it via strait healing puts you in direct competition with clerics.

Enchanters runes are either self only, require reagents, and are generally a buff more than a means of really mitigating damage. I'm talking about using "damage absorbing" spells to make a real healer.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Tunare's Blessing:
100% reliable Death-proc.
Duration 1.5 hours, requires an emerald.

When the buffed player dies, the following things happen:
All mana is drained, all buffs are stripped.
HPs are reduced to 50% of unbuffed max.
A 1 minute debuff is placed on them that:
1> Roots them.
2> Divine auras them.
3> Drains 100 mana per tick.[/quote]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The second looks like a version of DI...not sure why it would be needed or what it would change. Saving throw that leaves the tank so debilitated would not do much good since they would still likely have agro and would just die again.[/quote]

Well, there is the divine aura part -- someone with divine aura has his hate on all hate lists reduced to 1.

It is an attempt to replace the role rez plays in a non-wipeout situation. One player dies in a deep crawl -- without rez, you have to start the crawl all over again.

This pseudo-rez means when the tank or enchanter dies, they instead take a "time out".

Both abilities are useful on both raids and in xp groups.

Neither step directly on other classes' abilities.

Len the druid
06-12-2003, 03:33 PM
completely change the way resitance works. Let a druid take a mob's fire or cold or both reisstance to negatives where OTHERS casting on them see an increase in criticals using those types of spells..

Make this aggro intensive, make it stackable.

In a group a druid would reduce either fire or cold dependent on the mob and the OTHER DRUID or mage or wizard in the group would focus on using those types of spells. You make the resitance check a stackable? bonus..meaing if the wizze crits, you add 25% to that crit (or more depending on where you've taken their resistance) if the wizzie doesn't get the crit check, you still add the 25% or more..whatever the increase needs to be.

solo..you could fully debuff a mob and single nuke as a method of soloing..which people wouldn't freak out about as you'd be burning through your mana and needing med times (ahh the old days)

group..not only could you increase the value of your nukes..you would create interdepence with other classes. Mages and Wizzies in particular.

Raid..multiple druids needed to stack the debuffs as single druid would be come aggro magnet..stacked debuffs lead to huge damage being dished from other casters..

Oh and make regens actually matter. Make cholorpast and so on be a 3 hour spell at least.

and for giggles.. REINCARNATION..let us take a corpse..bring it back as a halfway decent bear pet that is our pet until it dies..or the real corse gets rezzed..(reincarnated person has to watch through the bears eyes with no control :P ). One reincarnation per corpse

gamilenka
06-12-2003, 03:54 PM
More zones with hazardous rain, some of them lower level.

Make more rain stopping spells at different levels. You can go to a harder zone with acid rain, but your lower level spell has less chance of working.

IrOxOrsJu
06-12-2003, 08:06 PM
Would Having a type of rune spell help any?? I was thinking about new spells would be cool and i though of a rune type spell. A regenerating rune spell.... You cast the Rune spell lasts maybe and hour or so can have a group version also. You cast it and the Rune spell Regenerates itself say at the speed of Regen/chloroplast/regrowth/and replinishment. Being the different lvs of this spell. Lets say you cast it and it puts a buff icon up on the character of course, and it begins generating itself up lets say to a max of 200 for first one 400/800/1200 in order of power. This would help with needing spot heals and what not. When the damage it generated up is used up you start taking damage but its always generating so will also cut down on damage the MT would be taking buy a few points every tick. This i think would cut down on the supply for healing of group members. damage dealers for thier reposite damage or puller with pulling damage by time its time to pull again should have generated up a few points depending on powerful the spell you have on you. I dunno if this will actually gives you guys what you need but its a spell that i thought would be cool. Sorry for the garble my writing skills are not the best.

Zeotti
06-12-2003, 09:00 PM
1. Nerf Succor

2. Nerf all nukes

3. Give them a 3 second CH

Hell, isn't it what they wanted?

Zeotti
06-12-2003, 09:02 PM
Oh forgot.

"One reason clerics are percieved as more valuable is because of the added expenses of hauling around peridot and whatnot. Clerics spend 10pp to give people more hitpoints. Druid spend 18 pp to stop the rain. what a friggin joke."

I suggest that

1) Druids spend 18pp to heal. No joke!

Batou062671
06-12-2003, 09:29 PM
Had an idea to add to the thread. Make damage shields damage scale up as the mob gets slowed. I.E. the 40 point DS does 80 points if the mob is slowed to half. That way the mob hits less, but takes the same overall damage. If it hit 10 times for 40 unslowed, it would hit 5 times for 80 slowed. THis causes the DS damage to be constant slowed and unslowed and makes druids and mages stack better with slow classes (which are considered required by many)

aleii
06-12-2003, 09:34 PM
laeyakk

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Tunare's Blessing:
100% reliable Death-proc.
Duration 1.5 hours, requires an emerald.

When the buffed player dies, the following things happen:
All mana is drained, all buffs are stripped.
HPs are reduced to 50% of unbuffed max.
A 1 minute debuff is placed on them that:
1> Roots them.
2> Divine auras them.
3> Drains 100 mana per tick.[/quote]

Have you compared this spell with the cleric's divine intervention spell? It is a lvl 60, 10 minute duration death save spell which costs 2 emeralds.

This proposed druid spell lasts 9 times longer, costs half as much plat, and takes care of keeping the person alive = 0 exp lost and only 1 minute time out is less time than it would take to rez the person and have them zone back in and loot their corpse.

I don't see how you can say that this doesn't step on/further blur the line between cleric and druid.

Iisbliss
06-12-2003, 11:51 PM
Things we should have had already:

1. Curse Resist
2. Major Attack buff better than shaman (needs at lower levels, makes no difference at higher ones)


Things we should get

1. Attack debuffs and CR/FR debuffs should REALLY make a difference to the mobs...especially attack debuffs...if you drop a mobs attack by 250...he should be almost as gimped as if he were slowed by 50% ....

2. Wrath of the Wild should be DA like effect, with longer reuse time and self only.

3. Animal only slow...


Things we should NOT get...
1. DI...or any form of it
2. Res spell or any form of it

What the REAL problem is

Its not class balance, its group size...
Classes are nicely balanced actually compared to other games.

The problem is you have to have the following in a group:

Taunt
Slow
Heal
Crowd Control
DPS
Snare (well not so much anymore)

If groups could hold 8 people instead of six, necros mages druids and all the other borderline classes would probably get more groups = )

Dikmer
06-13-2003, 04:42 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>More zones with hazardous rain, some of them lower level.

Make more rain stopping spells at different levels. You can go to a harder zone with acid rain, but your lower level spell has less chance of working. [/quote]

Ten people will just log a bot druid out in the zone to log in at need and stop the rain.

This idea wont make druids more wanted in a group, it'll just make druids wanted in a zone.

Kaidian Blade
06-13-2003, 05:09 AM
I've been pondering this topic for days now and I think I have a solution narrowed down. First though, It's important to go over a few points I'm basing my proposition on.

1) Druids will never fill one of the "holy trinity" positions of Tank, Crowd Control or Pure Cleric.
2) LoY has rendered useless the need for Druids (or Wizards) as porters. Plain and simple, it's no longer one of our defining and <strong>NEEDED</strong> roles.
3) Graveyards, Run Speed I-III and Mounts have negated the need for Druids (Rangers, Shamans & Beastlords) to enhance movement outdoors. While this was a godsend to all classes, it again rendered useless one of our defining roles: <em>masters of travel</em>.
4) PoP and LoY have also lessened the need for Succor as zones are considerably smaller than SoV or RoK zones.
5) The sheer number of mobs that are immune to Root and Snare has grown exponentially since RoK and has rendered the Druid impotent in the role of crowd control.
6) Likewise, the nerfing of Harmony has only compounded our crowd control ability. What was once one of the most desired functions of a Druid is gone. This again hinders our desirability for groups.
7) PoP mobs have essentially made useless the current spell lines of Regeneration and Damage Shields for <strong>ALL</strong> classes. Simply stated, Damage Shields do so little effect that they are not even worth casting and Regeneration spells don't heal enough damage fast enough.

Thus, this leaves us to compete for one of three remaining slots in a group. Within this position we compete as backup healer, buffer, de-buffer, DS and DD/DPS. A wide range of roles which any other class can fill equally well. Thus the dilemma: "Why chose a Druid over another class?" It's because of our <em>Jack-of-all-Trades</em> aspect that has compounded with each expansion to limit the Druid to not having a specific role. Without a key role, or a key function in a group our desirability as a class is in direct competition with every other class that is not of the <em>holy trinity</em>.

The Druid <strong>IS</strong> a well-rounded class. We are the third-best healers, second best DSers, third best nukers and our DoTs are tied as being the best there are. But to a group looking to fill that last slot... nothing about us stands out as a <em>must have</em> class anymore. It's been a long time since it has.

After reading every single post ahead of mine I've drawn some key conclusions on how best to make the Druid a desired class once again. There are some wonderful arguments and some extremely far-fetched and ridiculous ideas too, but they all served to get me thinking about our class. I have tried to keep the key issue at hand: our desirability in a <strong>GROUP</strong>. Therefore:

- Changes must benefit Druids at <strong>ALL</strong> levels, so AA abilities were not even considered as an area to tweak
- Changes can <strong>NOT</strong> benefit Druids soloability

Furthermore, I've tried to keep the integrity of our class in tact and make sure that what I'm proposing would logically fall within the realm of a Druid's abilities. Lastly, I came to the conclusion that try as hard as I can... there is no way to avoid stepping on another classes toes to accomplish this. In order for us to be desired in a group, we're going to have to borrow a bit from some other classes. I've done my best to limit this and not turn us into the end-all be-all class. Likewise, I did not want to render useless <strong>ANOTHER</strong> classes desirability in a group; lest they fall victim to the same situation we're in now. My conclusion is that the only way we'll become valuable again in a group is to increase our ability to improve the abilities of <strong>OTHER</strong> classes we group with.

So how to accomplish this?

In a nutshell, two spell lines that already exist for Druids need to be revamped and enhanced and a new ability for Druids needs to be created.

<span style="text-decoration:underline">Change #1</span>
The Rez debate is the strongest source of public outcry. I do not propose nor think it necessary to give Druids the ability to Rez. The biggest downfall to dying is the experience loss. And it is the Cleric's job to get us that experience back. I don't want to take that key role away from them. Yet another aspect of dying while grouped or on a raid is that you're no longer contributing to the success of the group! You're absence of ability has lessened your group or raid's overall effectiveness. What I propose is that the Druid class assist in getting dead players back into action as soon as possible so they can be effective again. There will be plenty enough time for the Cleric to perform Rezes later. Here's how:

A line of spells (at level 24, 34, 44, 54, 64) that when cast on a player's corpse will 1) teleport the player back to their corpse 2) have no detrimental Rez effects (because a "Rez" was not performed, just a teleport) 3) a portion of HPs and Mana are intact that scale with the level of the spell being cast. The spell would be cast prior-to a Rez. A message box similar to the Cleric's Rez confirmation would pop-up asking the player if they accept or decline. It could only be cast <em>once</em> on a corpse and only if a Rez has <strong>NOT</strong> been performed previously on the corpse. This would serve to get players missing in action due to death <em>back into the group or raid</em> and in a somewhat better position to once again lend support.

L24 - Nature's Guard - 100Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 20% HP, 20% Mana
L34 - Nature's Conserve - 200Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 30% HP, 30% Mana
L44 - Nature's Preserve - 300Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 40% HP, 40% Mana
L54 - Nature's Embrace - 400Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 50% HP, 50% Mana
L64 - Nature's Gift - 500Mana - Duration:Instant - 4sec Cast - 15sec Recast
Effect:Target Corpse: Teleport Player to Corpse, 75% HP, 75% Mana

<span style="text-decoration:underline">Change #2</span>
The debate for a stronger Regeneration effect and better enhancements to Tanks DPS has led to this proposal. Our current Illusion: Tree spell line is... well... worthless. Who needs to switch to a Tree illusion to regenerate Mana nowadays with KEI, AA abilities and our mounts? This line of spells can be reworked into a much more useful <strong>GROUP FRIENDLY</strong> line of spells. My idea is that once the Druid changes into a Tree of varying level, he imparts to his group certain <em>Blessings of Nature</em>. <strong><em>Only the Druid</em></strong> is perma-rooted in place and in tree form. The whole group gains the benefit of regeneration of HPs, Mana and an increased ATK though. The Mana component will overwrite the need for the Druid to be on his mount or sitting to regain Mana while the ATK enhancement was a borrowing of another of our spell lines (Share form of Wolf/Great Wolf). Players dislike being in wolf form and because of this, don't get to partake of one of the best components to these spells: an increase in <em>ATK</em>. Thus, I've borrowed the increase to ATK and scaled it down a bit for this series of spells. These spells will stack with all forms of HP and Mana regeneration, including that from Bards, Focus Items or AAs. However, the spells do not stack with higher or lower versions of themselves. Therefore, two Druids can't be in two different (or the same) tree form at the same time in the same group. Furthermore, the spell would take up a buff slot on the Druid's UI, but for his or her group, it would appear in the <em>song buff</em> window. The reason for this is that if the Druid dies, leaves the group or cancels tree form, the benefits for the group are <span style="text-decoration:underline">immediately</span> removed. This is a major departure for any spell, but one that would entice the Druid to be in tree form at all times. After all, Druids don't need to physically attack a mob so there's no setback to being rooted in place. And like the original tree form spells, Druids can still cast spells in tree form. One additional KEY aspect of this spell though is that it's Outdoor-Only modifier be <strong>DROPPED</strong>. So yes, having a tree inside a dungeon becomes a possible sight to see. My only little gratuitous plug for this line of spells is that at level 65 we get a new Illusion: Treant form and the root factor is negated.

L09 - Treeform - 30Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Increase HPs 3-5/tic, Decrease FR by 10
L19 - Spirit of Elm - 40Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 4-6/tic, Increase Mana 1/tic, Increase ATK 10-15
L29 - Spirit of Ash - 50Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 6-8/tic, Increase Mana 2/tic, Increase ATK 20-25
L39 - Spirit of Oak - 60Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 8-10/tic, Increase Mana 3/tic, Increase ATK 30-35
L49 - Spirit of Darkwood - 80Mana - Duration:36min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 10-12/tic, Increase Mana 4/tic, Increase ATK 40-45
L59 - Spirit of Shadewood - 100Mana - Duration:45min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 12-14/tic, Increase Mana 5/tic, Increase ATK 50-55
L63 - Spirit of the Glade - 200Mana - Duration:1hour - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Tree/Root, Group:Increase HP 16-20/tic, Increase Mana 6/tic, Increase ATK 60-65
L65 - Spirit of Nature - 300Mana - Duration:1hour,24min - 4sec Cast - 2.3sec Recast
Effect:Self:Illusion:Treant, Group:Increase HP 25/tic, Increase Mana 7/tic, Increase ATK 70-75

<span style="text-decoration:underline">Change #3</span>
Lastly, our debuff lines of spells need to be enhanced. The benefits need to be raised for each spell and to further increase the effectiveness of the changes, the aggro generated by these debuffs need to be reduced by <strong>HALF</strong> and the resistance check needs to be lessened. If Druids are to become rooted in place with the addition of the new spells above, generating the same amount of aggro as we do now will only serve to kill us off even faster. The current amount of aggro these spells generate is much, <strong>MUCH</strong> too high compared to our ability to mitigate damage to ourselves. Currently, the degree to which mobs resist our debuffs at higher levels makes the spells uneffective in doing what they were meant to do. Resists <em>need</em> to be lowered. The original modifiers for these spells are in parenthesis "( )".

L39 - Ro's Fiery Sundering - 200Mana - Duration:2-3mins - 3.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 10-12(5-7), Decrease FR by 45-51(37-43)
L44 - Fixation of Ro - 100Mana - Duration:10mins - 2.5sec Cast - 6sec Recas
Effect: Decrease AC by 20-23(15-18.), Decrease ATK by 65-75(52-62)
L56 - Ro's Smouldering Disj. - 250Mana - Duration:10min - 4.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 30-35(26-27), Decrease FR by 75-80(66-68.), Decrease HP by 200(150), Decrease ATK by 65-70(58-62)
L61 - Hand of Ro - 165Mana - Duration:3.6-3.8min - 3.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 20(15), Decrease FR by 80(72), Decrease ATK by 120(100)
L62 - Ro's Illumination - 150Mana - Duration:10mins - 2.5sec Cast - 6sec Recast
Effect: Decrease AC by 20(15), Decrease ATK by 100(80)

These are my proposals. To sum up, these are the changes to our abilities that will get us desired again in groups:

- Increased regeneration of HPs and Mana for group
- Increased ATK for group (Tanks and Melee to benefit mostly)
- Increased effectiveness of debuff line of spells with decreased aggro generated for their use and lowered chance of Resist
- Ability to teleport recently dead players back to their corpse with a portion of HPs and Mana intact and no detrimental Rez-type effects

These proposals are suggestions and welcome to debate, critique and scrutiny by the Druid community, other class communities and of course by Absor.

Stumbletoe
06-13-2003, 06:25 AM
Kaidian, interesting proposals and changes....but I don't think they're viable.

1. Against any form of resurrection. It's never been our domain. It would trivialize the need for Clerics if we had rez - even your form that returns no xp.

2. Trees in dungeons? Seems silly to me. Rooting ourselves in place? No thanks, not for a little extra mana regen. This doesnt at all look to be a group-friendly spell, this looks to be something on your personal wish list. You frequently talk about "the druid" in the group being rooted, and how we don't need to melee critters...but the spell, as you explain it, is a group buff. Umm...no WAY I want my group to be rooted. No WAY my tanks are gonna wanna be rooted. No WAY an Enchanter in the group is gonna wanna be rooted. How are you gonna pull, if everyone is rooted? Even at level 65, without the root component, its not an attractive spell. It'd never be used outside (horses) and inside...well...I just can't see treants running around a dungeon.

3. Increasing atk debuff from 80 to 100 on Ro's isnt gonna do anything. Atk debuff spells as they are now do very very little to mitigate any damage dealt. Improving the spell by such a tiny number as twenty points would have no noticable effect.

Sorry, didn't mean to rain all over your parade. We obviously have differing viewpoints. I think your assessment of current problems is very good. But your solutions aren't something I would support.

Stumbletoe

Kaidian Blade
06-13-2003, 06:37 AM
The root is for the Druid ONLY. The rest of the group is NOT rooted, nor in tree form. And out of curiosity, why would you be against rooting yourself in place during combat? If the sh** looks like it's about to hit the fan . . . simply click off the spell icon. TADA, no longer rooted in place. Do you (or any Druids) actually Melee during combat after the 30's???

And it's NOT a Rez! It's no different than CoTH - it's summoning/TPing a player but to their corpse. So as not to infringe on CoTH, Mana and HPs take a hit. You're basically bringing a player back to the spot they died (or were dragged to). <span style="text-decoration:underline">NO</span> experience is regained, so how is this a Rez?

The way it is now, when someone dies and there is not a Cleric in the group... what happens? You have to either hope a Mage can CoTH them back to the zone (if CoTH is allowed in that zone) or you have to wait for that player to make their way back. If a Cleric <em>is</em> in the group to perform a Rez, there is still the matter of down time. It's the down time I'm trying to alleviate. Once the action has calmed down and there is a chance to do so, the Cleric can then do the Rez. I'm just trying to come up with a way to get dead players back into the action faster and not putting so much pressure on the Cleric to Rez immediately.

Would the debuffs be better served if instead of a hard number being modified a percent be applied instead? Like Decreasing AC by xx% or ATK by xx%?

Edit: I'll reword the part about the rooting. If you misunderstood it, others might as well.

Stumbletoe
06-13-2003, 09:11 AM
Kaidian -

Thanks for the clarification on your regen/root idea. I had indeed thought you meant the entire group. I'd still be opposed to rooting myself, but not for meleeing reasons. I need to be able to move frequently in a group. If its a bad pull, I need to be able to target adds to either assist in CC (root/snare-kite), or to make sure the tank in the group isnt out of healing range if we're in a large area. Being rooted would hinder me. As you said, I could merely click off the icon, thats true. But personally, for a few extra health/mana regen, I just don't see it as a worthwhile spell. It's one more thing I'd have to think about on a bad pull. As well, since it changes your form and the mana regen is nowhere near as good as horse-med, it wouldnt be used outside. Its a highly situational spell, and one that some druids would prefer and others would disdain. I don't see it as a good way to make us more attractive to groups.

On your other ideas, I do think a percentage for lowering attack value on our debuffs is the way to go. Good idea, although not entirely original in concept. Lots of folks have posted very similar, if not the exact same thing already, on this thread. However, I do think its an idea that has some merit. As stated on numerous previous posts on this thread, it would make our Damage Shields more viable, as well as lowering the amount of incoming damage so our mana for healing isnt stretched too thin.

You argue that your teleport-dead-player-to-corpse idea isnt a rez....but lets examine the resurrection spell. It teleports a dead player to their gear, and returns a portion of lost xp. Your idea teleports a player to their gear. And in high xp zones for the 65 crowd (read: PoP) xp isnt a big issue. At 65, I lose 6% level xp per death. Even without a resurrection, thats not a big hit to take. And if I were in a good group, I could take the hit and move on, putting xp back into level as needed to replace the loss from death. Wouldn't take long to get back to where I was, and switch back over to full AA xp. I've done it before when resurrections weren't readily available.

So, in essence, we'd have the ability to be main healer, teleport the dead back with no res effects and most of their hp and mana, no downtime for deaths at all, lets rock-n-roll all night. Cleric LFG? Why ever get one?

This is why I called your idea a rez. It's a watered down version of one, but it does everything except replace xp. And xp, simply put, is not hard to get.

I can see that you (and others) are merely trying to get past the downtime associated with death, and make it so that group dynamics don't require a rez-class for people to feel safe. However, I just cannot see justification for our class to recieve any resurrection-type spell. I truly think it would invalidate Clerics to the point of being obsolete for most xp grouping situations. Additionally, I made a Druid - not a Cleric. I think that if I had a rez-like spell, and the healing capability we have now, I'd be relegated to Main Healer duty 99% of the time in an xp group. As it is now, I'm Main Healer about 50% of the time. Many times I get to blow stuff up - which is a lot more fun, and I think a better use of my mana since I have a much larger chance of causing a critical with my nukes than I do with my heals (and healing "crits" are wasted for us, so much of the time).

Stumbletoe

fran9876
06-13-2003, 09:56 AM
I definately agree that the restriction be removed to allow crits on our CH's. I also think NR should be fixed as described by others. I also think a group heal is very needed.

To help our DPS, I think we should be able to summon more pets, along the lines of the Mage Monster Summoning line, but with only animals. This would not allow it to be cast in zones without animals. We would summon a pet that would take on the form and attributes of a random animal in the current zone. We are the only charming class that cannot summon a "real" pet. BooBoo doesn't count as real... lol!

On the wishlist, I agree that shapeshifting would be very appropriate to druid lore. How neat it would be to take on forms such as eagles, griffons, etc. Each form should have specific benefits to it, like increased melee, resists, etc. We should be able to cast these spells on group members as well.

We should have animal slows, not to increase our group desirability, but it fits with our animal line, just as necros have undead slows. They should also get undead tash to equal ours.

Our hp buffs should stack with cleric/pallies. It isn't right that cleric/shaman buffs stack and ours do not. I like the idea someone presented in turning Natureskin into a symbol type spell, but I doubt SOE would go for that.

We need a way to avoid damage for our bigger heals/debuffs which gain aggro. I think our dodge limit should be removed. That will increase our avoidance of hits. Perhaps a dodge buff as well.

Someone should be able to cast resist/endure curses. This should be given to all priests, with one "specializing" in it at higher levels (like shamans specialize pr/dr, druids specialize fr/cr and enchanters specialize mr).

I also agree that DS needs to be reworked. I like the percentage idea. Even the percentage related to the percentage of slow the mob has on him, I like, although I would think this would be to hard to code.

Not sure I even want to comment on the rez ideas. Rez would be spiffy for personal use. Having more classes that can rez would also benefit more people. It's rare that people will search out necros for a rez. Rarely do people /who all pally when seeking a rez. They look for one class: cleric. It is easiest for clerics, due to their epic, but I really feel more then 3 classes out of 15 should be able to rez. Whether it should be druids is another story.

Fanra
06-13-2003, 10:16 AM
Please remove faction changes to Wolf Form in 99% of the zones.

Sony has killed Wolf Form for NO REASON WHATSOEVER.

We can not be a wolf now in most zones. And there is no reason for this.

Every zone I go in, I think, gee, I would like to be a wolf. But then it's, Gee, I wonder how many NPCs or mobs there are here who I would suddenly become KOS to. I better not wolf because I could get myself and my group killed.

So, I never can use wolf form.

And of course, no group ever asks for group wolf form.

Please fix wolf form.

Also suggest making group wolf form better and allowing Slam while a wolf.

Kaidian Blade
06-13-2003, 10:32 AM
I'm going to agree with you Fanra.

Why the heck is wolf-form so much of a faction slam? Shamans can be in Bear form and be fine. They summon wolf PETS and are also fine. Vah Shir Beastlords have giant feline pets and they are fine.

Now granted Boo Boo doens't get us aggro, but why when we are in the form of a lycanthrope do we suddenly become Public Enemy No. 1?

I don't know about you, but if I saw a wolf, a lion and a bear in the wild, I'd be much less afraid of the wolf than I would the lion or bear?

I would love to see a justification from SOE for why this faction hit is still needed.

Satrah
06-13-2003, 10:58 AM
Hrmm...

I wouldn't mind seeing a root that wasn't able to be broken so easily. (Or a caster that I was grouped with at least tell me when they nuke?)

Maybe this idea sounds totally out there....but another right click DoT that isn't simply "Drones of Doom?" I tend to use four dots on a mob while grouped. Two of them are right clicks, two are casted. One of my right clicks though is a "Drones of Doom" one. *sigh* If I remember correctly that spell was I think around level 39? I'm level 55. I wouldn't mind seeing a higher level right click DoT. (Call me odd...but I would like to keep my mana around for when I might need it. Like for an emergancies.)

I'm still a little new in the Planes...but I have been grouped while in them. I've been told I'm good at what I do. (Where upon I tell the people very nicely thank you. Still stuns me that they think I'm worthy of the praise.)

I know enough about the Planes that for someone who has only been in them a few times, that it is best to carefully explore them with a friend that truely KNOWS their way around. Got killed four times by a careless group leader that I hadn't knewn for long.

I know I don't have much to add yet...maybe upon further careful exporing I may have a different opinion.

Satrah

Len the druid
06-13-2003, 02:27 PM
so many good ideas but i think it's beocme sort of obvious.

They need to change druids at the core but not change what druids are at the core..

Resist debuffs meaning something. Might work in a caster heavy group, could make group root/nuke viable..no/low impact on soloing. Typical group of tank tank tank slower enc healer still has no reason to deviate group though.

Attack debuff meaning something. Shammies and Druids just became interchangable.

For raiding. I like this treeform idea. Give us the ability to speed up wipe recovery basically. make the rooted regen/mana regen..sick. Might be odd hoping your raid wipes so you can feel important but hell..it's an unfilled spot

And you're done. We're a valid class again, you didn't up our soloing ability..you only irked the shammies and all shammies are mellow. You didn't irk the clerics and we all know how twitchy they are :)

Weoden
06-13-2003, 04:15 PM
Im going to throw out another idea. Wolf form needs an upgrade and whether its just a buff or the tranformation into a wolf... Well, a group version that does not have sow on it with haste component + see invis + ultra vision. This buff would be castable inside and should be stackable with primal and yalp5(i think thats it).

In addition, druid could get an upgrade to fire first that is group buffable and a lower version of SoP.

Finally, I really, really, really, think animal slows will be a waste of a programers time to make. There are so few animals.

The above mention of tree form sounds interesting but the issue of gaining aggro after healing and then needing to rebuff this spell after clicking it off is always an issue. Also, a tree inside or being restricted to O.D. only is not really what you want to ask for in a spell to improve a class.

Last, there are 4 types of spells. nuke(DD), Heal, buff, utility. I am going to assume slow is type of utility along with resist buff/debuff, sow, ports etc.

So, which catagory do druids want to be improved in so as to get groups? Well, better nukes might help but druids would always be second to int classes for dps. You can improve heal but then clerics get grumpy. You can improve buffs but certain buffs might get shaman/enchanters/clerics upset. Then there is utility spells.

The problem with utility spells is that you can do without them. A group can work around sow/ports etc. Yes, grouping would be slow without c3 or haste but you could do it. The point being, what area do druids need improvement in?

Other points previously mention: Group size is an issue but what is to stop a group from just getting more dps instead of a druid? Druids need spells that can compliment groups with the following make up.

tank/cleric/enc/dru/
tank/dru/sham/bard
tank/dru/bard
tank/dru/sham

Trevize
06-14-2003, 02:05 PM
IMO druids are fine. I am enjoying the game and what I can do.

Stumbletoe
06-14-2003, 06:03 PM
Druids are fine.....says Trevize with 333 AA points, and gear that most Druids will never see......

Heh, no offense Trevize, but I did laugh out loud on that.

Honestly, for the most part, I think we are fine as a Class too. I can't argue against the fact however, that player perception is there that we aren't a needed, nor usually highly wanted class, for xp groups. I group mainly with guildmates and friends. Occasionally I solo, and more occasionally (rarely)I do pickup groups.

There's been a lot of interesting ideas come out of this thread, and the others dealing with this subject. No clue if any change is going to come because of it. I think most stuff is over the top, not needed, and would cause more harm than good to the overall game. But a few ideas do seem to have merit. Whether or not any change that is implemented, should it come to happen, actually changes player perception and makes us more attractive to groups remains to be seen. My money, were I a bettin man (and I am) says it wont.

Stumbletoe

WyteNK
06-14-2003, 06:31 PM
Cross posted idea 'cuz I'd like this to be included on this list (modified slightly from original).

The question posed dealt with Druid desirability, which IMO requires consideration of the following facts:

<strong>1 </strong> People hunt for xp
<strong>2 </strong> People die hunting for xp
<strong>3 </strong> People want xp back from dying while hunting for xp
<strong>4 </strong> People want their gear back from dying while hunting for xp

<strong>A different solution to xp return: </strong>
Give Druids a group buff, relatively short duration, that will <em><span style="text-decoration:underline">mitigate</span></em> xp loss <strong>upon death</strong>.

Here's what I mean:
There's a spell line including <strong>Death Pact</strong> and <strong>Divine Intervention</strong> that work along this line of thinking. Upon death, an action occurs.

In the case of the Druid buff, the action is the <strong>immediate compensation</strong> of 70 - 80% xp lost. It also leaves the corpse rezzable for the <strong>remainder</strong> of the lost xp to bring it up to 96% returned by a Cleric.

<strong>Some highlights</strong>
- It does NOT help with CR (fact no. 4 listed above).
- It does NOT give a prime amount of returned xp.
- It does allow full xp to be returned, however, with a Cleric.
- It will take a buff slot (precious on raids).
- It will use the Druids mana, and if he/she is a primary healer then it will count.
- It will not be ideal for soloing, because refreshing this <em>group</em> buff would be slowing you down considerably.
- It will use a regeant, preferably our Wake of Karana regeant.
- It will have a short duration, ie: 30 minutes, so it can't be whored in the bazaar/pok.

I can't help but think of the Lord of the Rings scene, where Arwen says, holding Frodo: "<strong>What grace has been given me, let it pass to him</strong> ". So... maybe call it "<strong>Tunare's Grace</strong>", or something like that. ;)

Wyte - 65 Storm Warden

Gormack
06-15-2003, 12:47 PM
This post is from a paladin, that has played a druid both solo and in groups, and my post is based on why I would want or wouldnt want a druid in my group.

Druids are from a group perspective used for Bot9, DS, Ro debuff and backup healing. This not to say added dmg and not bad at that.

Why doesnt everyone want a druid in their group then ?

The reasons are many, BoT9 doesnt stack with, paladins Aura of the Crusader, clerics Armor of Zealot. That removes these 2 classes incentive to add a druid. For mana or added hpts.
DS, debuff and dmg are outclassed by a magician. That means a magician and druid stacks poorly in a group environment.
Backup healing and debuffs are maintained just as well or better by shamans (not to say the need for slow). This in turn makes the shaman and druid appear not to stack.

This would in many cases put the druid in the 6th spot where a dmg dealer (ranger, rogue, monk, wiz) would provide the group with more exp.


In my in mind there are 2 paths the druids can take:

1) Buff/Debuffing; let druids have an all stacking mana regen spell, higher than 8mana/tick and make them masters of cold/fire debuffs with next to unresisteable debuffs. And add a semi duration massive regen spell, with a fairly high reuse time.

2) dmg dealers; give druids a clear dmg advantage against animals, either improved dot line or nukes. Increase the usefullness of the druid pet, make it a on level lower than mage pets


This would make groups think, we got an enchanter or shaman for slow lets grab a druid for buffs and debuffs.

Or we need a dmg dealer lets add a druid.


What would be terrible mistakes;

1) giving druids any kind of slows or mitigation spells.

Gormack lvl 65 Lord Protector (192aas) and Mendewe lvl 65 Archon (40aas)

GreystoneThorngage
06-15-2003, 07:32 PM
Was thinking about the DS situation. What about adding a reverse DS, every time mob swings it damages it self. Kind of a double thing. If they miss they take no damage with our DS, but because we covered them in thorny vines too, their movement cuts them.

Also, perhaps adding a DS with a dot factor. Poison barbs. The DS hit is lower, but the mob is poisoned and starts taking DoT damage.


Also, person said that some druid can say he sees nothing wrong with druids because he has uber gear and 333 AA's, i dont have any of that and pretty much have to agree, druids need some minor twinks, but not a major overhaul

Coralas
06-17-2003, 03:18 AM
Hail fellow Druids,

I agree that we need something that will define us in a group versus filling in for another class. I'm not sure what exactly that is, but I have thought about some spells or AA's that might be useful for grouping and soloing.

I like using pets, even charmed pets, but with the charm nerf and the group exp boost, it's lost a lot of appeal. Still, pet classes have usually been a welcome addition to any group I've been in, so I propose some changes to the way Druids (and others) use pets.

1. Add some high level (maybe Planar Class AA) ability to boost the level limit of which mobs you can Dire Charm. Right now, I believe the level is 45 or 46...how about for each AA point spent, you can Dire Charm a mob 2 levels higher. Having 3 AA points in this means you can Dire Charm an animal that is level 51 or 52.

2. Add some spell or AA ability to increase the level of Nature Walker's Behest (aka Boo-boo) after casting. I believe he is around level 30 right now and does a whopping 2 DPS. By casting a spell buff on him, maybe we could boost him to mid to late-40s level. This would certainly not be anywhere near Mage, Necro, Beastlord, or even Shaman pets, yet might be a nice addition to a group. In a situation where the group is fighting a mob that debuffs, it would simply make Boo-boo back to level 30ish as opposed to debuffing a charm that causes your former pet to start attacking you or the group. I thought the Beastlord have some type of spells to boost the levels of their pets, so I would hope it wouldn't be too difficult to code.

Just some thought...

Coralas Aldaron
59 Druid of Tunare
Erollisi Marr Server