In an effort to keep the other topic a bit more targeted discussion wise, I'm cropping out some of the items that people had in their posts. Note that the previous thread was not meant as a "why druids aren't good at grouping" thread, but rather a concise listing of new ideas for druid abilities. Since the thread already had several posts, I didn't want to edit them out without making sure they were stored elsewhere.

From this point on, please keep grouping, class vs class, and other discussions on this thread, we want a less cluttered forum for ideas in the other topic.

Stewwy said:
PoP has elevated the need for the grand 3 abilities to an even higher level with a a 4th added to the equation.

Almost exclusively in PoP you MUSt have a Plate Class to tank, a Slowing Class and a Healing Class with DPS being critical in PoP because of strength of the mobs.

That is 4 slots taken by primary roles.....which of these roles can the druid fulfill effectively i nthe minds of the Norrathian Community?

Tank? - No.
Slower? - No.
Healer? - VIEW is no, but WE know we can heal just as well as clerics in most situations, in addition clerics have the rez for boo boo's, and there are always boo boo's.
DPS? - No. Mages, Wizards, monks and rogues are all sought out in favor of the druid for the obvious reason that they put out more DPS than the druid. Now if a Druid has put everything they have into being a nuker than can compete most likely.

So this leaves us with one role we can fulfill and that is healer, which we do not do as well as clerics and with no rez (FYI - I am not asking we get rez here) leaves us even further behind in Norrathian desireability.

========================

Oldoaktree said:
No solutions, but I will list the problems as I see them. Some are repeats, of course.

On the most fundamental level, players in EQ are min/maxers. They want to ensure the maximum return from the members participating in groups, to get the fastest experience rate and the strongest mix of skills to let them pull faster and harder.

Group formation has gone back to a very classic formula:

Main Tank (War, Pal, SK)
Healer (Cleric strongly preferred)
Slower (Shaman generally preferred, followed by chanter)
3 dmg classes (Rog/monk/ranger/wizard/mage/necro if the people are smart) to get the maximum kill rate

People are willing to work around the formula

Druids are designed as a mixed utility class. We can fill in for a number of roles if their preferred class is not available, but truthfully druids have 3 options in a group:

1) Primary healer (only if there is no cleric)
2) Dmg (we are just not efficient enough at it to be selected for our dmg output most of the time, and do not have the mana regen to do sustained dmg output)
3) Back up healer/ fill in player if you can't get one of your preferred classes (ie say someone is 2boxing a cleric, or there is already one druid in the group). This takes one of the dmg slots of the group of course.

Most classes in the game live on the crumbs of a few core classes. The best sustained experience rates will generally come from adhering to the formula, but acceptable rates can be had with other solutions. Those unusual groups can be some of the most fun, but they generally only are available from people you know and trust. And they are often temporary (ie optimal group mix is lost by someone leaving the group, the group tries for a while with a suboptimal mix, and suddenly more and more people need to log).

Our mixed utility role means we have significant drawbacks in any of the key jobs we might be asked to fill.

As healer, we can not rez if things fall apart (can work around with a pally in group if members are ok with that 90% rez). But we also lack tools to deal with multiple group members taking dmg, and we have no tools to ensure our own survival if our heals get us agro. A bad pull with a druid main healer is much more likely to be fatal for the entire group than the same pull with a cleric. People know and understand this, and would sooner not have to evac in the first place than know it is an option. You don't want to lose your camp or your momentum after all.

As nukers/dmg dealers, we have slower, lower dmg nukes that are often far less mana efficient than other casters do. As others above mentioned the visible evidence is our relatively low crits. Seeing a mage critting for 5000dmg while a druid crits for 3000dmg means to most people that gee, get a mage over a druid if you want dmg output (well with a mage pet that would generally be a good call).

Our other dmg options - DS's are pretty much a joke these days (at least if you don't have multiple ds's stacked). Our dots are not visible, and rarely have enough time to contribute a mana efficient level of dmg (and are less efficient than our nukes anyway). Our dire charm option has taken somewhat of a hit with perceptions of the pet experience nerf done recently (and not all of us have the skill, and not all zones have DC'able pets, and you can't always find such a pet or get it to your camp anyway).

Druids are better thought of for backup healing now, but the reality is that I see backup healing jobs much less frequently now than I did pre-pop. For whatever reasons, it just does not seem as common to take multiple priests into the same group.

For fixes I don't have any easy ideas. The game really is designed to encourage you to take the best possible class for any given ability. Being the best at nothing means druids generally are substitutes or fill ins for most groups.

One thought that might not be entirely new but that I have been considering. Bards are not great DPS, and have utility level abilities in their other skills (mez, slow). What really makes them stand out is that they are so good at facilitating the dmg of the REST of the group. In my experience they are VERY welcome in groups (esp since the combination of a backup slow and mez with some DPS and DPS enchancements is really potent).

I don't know where that though ultimately leads, but it is another option to consider for a "backup" class. If you can't directly contribute the dmg, perhaps there are buffs or abilities that would allow you to enhance other group members.

I know the DPS players I know love to see how their DPS increases when there is a bard around, adding that over cap haste, etc.

========================

random user said:
Well I think one problem is that different people are at different points in terms of AA, gear, and level, and regardless of what point they are at, some will have different ideas of what is optimal.

For example, I almost never want a shaman. The warrior I group with has self-cast shaman buffs (granted at a lower level), and I'd rather fill the slower slot with an enc, as they offer both charm and clarity. (And to those who say you can't charm anymore, I point you to my first paragraph.)

In addition, if I am fighting in a tier 3 or lower zone (exception being desert giants in storms) my enchanter hardly ever slows -- mobs just die too fast for slow to matter.

But I can see others preferring a shaman, or having a group makeup which requires slow.

In truth, my bet is that many possible combinations of classes work, but many people have become ingrained into the holy trinity that they are unwilling to explore other options.

And I think that most people here seem to agree -- ie we have the tools to do the job, it's just many people aren't open to the idea that we can do the job.

If this is the case, then solutions which mostly go towards changing people's perceptions of druid capabilities might be the best bet. Unfortunately, SOE (mostly correctly, I feel) thinks that druids are mostly balanced, and are unwilling to significantly change our capabilities.

========================

Demasia said:
Problem: Game changes have reduced the value of the druid's solo ability and therefore altered the balance of the class.

Once upon a time, there was a holy trinity for groups in EQ. The holy trinity as broken, but left one class that is still the only undisputed best option for groups. I am baffled why so many non-clerics are so protective of the clerics' "class defining abilities". It is no wonder it takes forever to find a group in PoP when a single class in the game has the biggest heals, best healing efficiency, fastest heals, rez and the best hit point and AC buffs.

Very few people would disagree that the following depicts the standard groups in the 61+ game:
1. Healer (Cleric/Shaman/Druid)
2. Slower (Shaman/Chanter/Beast)
3. MA (Warrior/Pally/SK/Ranger/Beast)
4. DPS (ROG/Wizzy/Mage/Beast/Monk/Ranger)
5. DPS (ROG/Wizzy/Mage/Beast/Monk/Ranger)
6. DPS (ROG/Wizzy/Mage/Beast/Monk/Ranger)

The only role that has a single best option, even if lower level than other classes is the Healer cleric.

Why do people prefer clerics? (similarly posted in another thread)
A. Hit point buffs (please don't say pallies can symbol since we know that every group doesn't have a pally)
B. Rez (there aren't GYs in most of the zones in the game if anyone thinks this is a trivial advantage of a cleric)
C. Downtime (clerics have a huge advantage in healing efficiency)
D. Big and Quick Heals

People build the groups around a cleric. It is not uncommon to offer to form a group to an LFG and receive "Do you have a cleric?" The cleric monopoly on groups must be broken before more people can group in the game.

========================

Posted by Ellzii -
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>and give clerics a mana regen buff line that is competitive to BOT9[/quote]
Gonna love this cause it stacks with Virtue

CLERIC SPELL DETAILS
Name: Armor of the Zealot
Level: 65

Actual Effects: Increase Max Hitpoints by 450
Increase AC by 36
Increase HP when cast by 450
Increase Mana by 8 per tick

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>and take away all component costs on cleric buffs or add them to druds.[/quote]

I can understand your plight, but most groups and raids provide for their clerics, maybe you need to find some better people to group with :)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Also add a line of buffs to clerics similar to Circle of summer, winter, protection of the seasons,strength buff, attack buffs, sow and lev[/quote]

Traverlers boots/horses/Pegi Cloak, can't do much about the FR/CR buffs otherwise you have the same or better resist spells better cure spells and the spell haste line which is sweet.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>My cleric had no equivalent armor he could solo.[/quote]

When was the last time you had to solo, when was the last time a Druid beat you out for a piece of equipment that was not randomed?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I honestly think you are more hurt by player perception then by actual power.[/quote]

Would you mind sitting at ZI then and rezzing my group when they die while I work on "changing their perceptions"?


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>i would be against the rez UNLESS we got the "possible get out of death free card-succor and evac[/quote]

CLERIC SPELL DETAILS
Name: Divine Aura
Level: 1
Mana: 10
Class: Abjuration
Era: Original Everquest
Type: Short Duration Invulnerability
Duration: 18 seconds
Casting Time: 1 second
Recast Time: 15 minutes
Actual Effects: Invunerability

Divine Barrier
Level: 29
Mana: 100
Class: Abjuration
Era: Original Everquest
Type: Short Duration Invulnerability
Duration: 18 seconds
Casting Time: 2 seconds
Recast Time: 15 minutes
Actual Effects: Invunerability
Increase Damage Shield by 25 (L29) to 36 (L50)
Increase HP when cast by 90 (L29) to 153 (L50)

May I have my rez now?

LZ


==============================

Posted by brum15 -
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Would you mind sitting at ZI then and rezzing my group when they die while I work on "changing their perceptions[/quote]

If I am in zone just give a holler. Rezzes are always free. would you mind going into SSRA and dragging out my group that I could not evac when I had to gate. Hate trying to CR with just me in gear and everyone else naked.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I can understand your plight, but most groups and raids provide for their clerics, maybe you need to find some better people to group with[/quote]

Nah they just need to do away with component cost as loot poor as POP is.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>When was the last time you had to solo, when was the last time a Druid beat you out for a piece of equipment that was not randomed[/quote]

Our guild gives to who it would make the biggest upgrade to. In other words if the druid and I both have no drop on (which is the norm) and the druid would get a bigger upgrade then it goes to the druid. As it should.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>May I have my rez now[/quote]

self only? Hell yes. other player? As soon as I can take other players with me with gate or DA or DB--and have DA and DB guaranteed to get me to the exit instead of just deeper into the dungeon.

Storm,

Sorry if we got the othe thread off your intended path, but you said to answer Absor and his first question was

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What is the reason that they don't want you?[/quote]

So that is what I started with.

Feel free to delete this post.....just explaning....

Yeah, that's fine, that's why I created this new thread. Once the discussion starts to settle down in the other thread we'll try to consolidate everyone's ideas. I just don't want it to degenerate into another dru vs clr thread and make people want to avoid posting their ideas. I've also edited the original post so that folks know to post on such topics in this thread instead.

That's a good post, Stormhaven.

One thing worth noting is that clerics get the biggest heals, most mana efficient heals and quickest heals as you say. If druids are to be good backup healers, should we not have really good quick heals? If they want druids to be good backup healers they need fast casting heals and group heals.

Look at the Paladin spell Light of Life. It is 410pt single target heal with 1.5 second cast time. That's right, *1.5 seconds!*. That is far and away better fast casting patch heal than anything druids get even at 65. And that's a level 52 paladin spell.

So my point is if people say druids getting fast casting heals is stepping on cleric toes, it would be no more so than Paladins already have and they are a melee. Surely a priest class druid should be a better backup healer than a melee. Yet as a 65 druid I drool over ever having the tools a lower level paladin has like Healing wave of Prexus and Light of Life.

Of course now we'll get 20 posts by Paladins of Norrath board people taking offense. /shrug. I like palys, but I stand by what I said.

And as a separate idea: One thing I have wondered is if it would be doable to have a new high level system where druids (And possibly other classes, although with the options varying by class) are able to specialize in either healing or dps at higher levels. For example you could have a set of new AA skills that improve healing and a set that improve DoTs but the catch is you can't do both, training one set of AAs negates the ability to buy the other set. That way druids can try to better fill one of those roles in your table of required classes without being too powerful in all areas.

We do get nature's infusion, thats a pretty good quick heal.. if we got a 1.5 second heal that does less hp than chloroblast i doubt it would help to heal up a low health group member enough to CH while you are fighting...



Let me turn the discussion towards a solution...


I agree with the whole cleric vs. druid thing but unfortunately I'm going to have to add a bit to it.



I remember way back when .. When our HP buffs were actually better than the cleric versions. Granted, with symbol added, clerics would get you higher HP and with AC added youd be good to go, but thats 2 other buffs .. You most probably aren't going to buff everyone. Now with HOV the entire group gets a massive ... *MASSIVE buff. What do druids have that compare to THAT? Who (even CASTERS now) in the group really would take POT9 over that? I rarely get casters clicking off their HoV for a POTG (grated i dont have pot9, but still .. HP / AC is very very desired)


Now lets take a look deeper here.

What causes a druid to be able to handle being the main healer in a group?

Lets see..

The level 63 spell Natures Infusion helps us to be a quick healer, so a 63 druid with this spell would stand up against a cleric for quick healing (i said stand up, even though we don't come close) ..

We get a very very mana efficient heal (Tunares Renewal) at 58, that makes us QUITE desireable! .. but in actuality .. We can't always stand as healer (let alone a good one) with this spell.

Now why would that be? It is a huge heal, nearly on par with CH.

Ah!

The tank in our group isnt buffed with HoV, instead he relies on a lower amount of HP and therefore cannot be healed anywhere near as efficiently.

Granted, a maxed out uber tank with massive HPs initially won't matter that much (but it will matter still) .. But most tanks are NOT maxed out.

In order for TR to use its full efficiency (safely) it must be used on a very high HP tank. And this tank would have to be buffed with virtue. No druid "protection of the" substitute would do.


Solution?


Give druids a bigger HP buff.

Now in what form would this take? A symbol type buff added to POT9 almost as much HP as cleric symbols? This would give the tank around the same HP as virtue, but not as much AC. And looking at their new found HP druids would be more desireable to them.

Clerics, now with their virtue, rarely use their symbol line .. I think its about time we get something of that worth.




This addition while won't make us anywhere near as desired as clerics, will make us much more desired if there is no cleric available and a group is looking for a healer. After all, who doesn't like to see their HP shoot up 1400 points?




Thats my solution (or .. at least partial solution) .. but what it comes down to is really this.


When sony adds to the game they really don't look hard enough.

Now they make grouping give *way more exp than it did before .. Who will want to solo when the people in groups are far overpowering them? (hell i dont even like soloing)

Grouping in PoP you need a top notch group.

Now let me see.

In this group would *have to be 3 things.

Tank. Slower. Healer.


Now lets take a look at the classes who effectively fill these roles.

Tank: Mainly Warrior, Pally, SK (pally / sk if they are good enough) .. and even possibly ranger but would have to be a very good ranger.

Slower: Shaman, enchanter, beastlord (in that order most likely, but any of the three would do)

Healer: Cleric




Does anyone see something wrong with that?

All other roles have 3 possibilities for a good group. But the healer role only has one.

Now you might say a druid can fill the role .. and in certain circumstances im sure they can .. but can they fill the role well enough? Or in all situations where the other 2 necessary classes are present? No. Not at all. When looking at the average group, if the druid is the healer they are significantly hindered.

There needs to be at the very least 2 possibilities for healer when looking for one for your group (however there really should be 3 looking at the whole class possibility thing above). And the second possibility to add is clear, the Druid. Because what role do we really have to fill? When you are done with the holy three (tank, slower, healer) what do you get to fill the rest with? DPS. And do we have DPS? Hell.. No..


Ok I've written my essay for the day =\

Healing is a cleric's ONLY route to exp. If youre healing is equivalent to Cleric healing, whats that leave Clerics with?

I think the Druid focus now needs to be on more efficient damage techniques and making Damage shield actually be viable as a damage dealer. Everyone knows once you slow a mob that DS becomes rather pathetic. It should have scaled better. Somehow. Not sure how though.

Improving DoTs is really easy. Make em work on mobs faster. The problem I see mostly comes from the time efficiency. Mob is dead in 1 minute or less and the DoT lasts 90 seconds....whats the point?

Healing is right in line from what I can see. Demand for clerics is diminishing slowly as gear and AA increases begin to be felt more and more in PoP. Pair a Druid and a Paladin in a group and they can easily keep a group alive in even the most challenging environments.

The offense route probably isnt as popular as even more healing increases for Druids but I think the healing as been pushed as far as it can be and still leave clerics as a viable class.


Belkram Marrwolf

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Healing is a cleric's ONLY route to exp.[/quote]

Absolutely untrue.

I know a cleric who solo'd from 56-63 in PoJ.

Clerics can solo if they want to, they just have to melee instead of nuke to do it.

<strong>Healer? - VIEW is no, but WE know we can heal just as well as clerics in most situations, in addition clerics have the rez for boo boo's, and there are always boo boo's.</strong>

Druids only heal as well in clerics in a very certain situation, that being damage is coming in slowly. Clerics have 1.8 second 1450 heal, pulse heals and much more efficient healing for mana. Clerics deliver healing faster, cheaper and for less agro. Druids can only heal as well when the healing load is easy.

<strong>DPS? - No. Mages, Wizards, monks and rogues are all sought out in favor of the druid for the obvious reason that they put out more DPS than the druid.</strong>

If it wasn't for agro issues a druid with dire charm and decent mana regen would out DPS a wizard in a typical group. I'd often sit in a group waiting for a monster to die knowing that I can drop 4 nukes on a mob mana-wise but only have the agro to do 2. Monks have no agro issues with FD, rogues have little, wizards have none with subtlety and concussion and mages none with subtelty and a brutally powerful pet that doesn't generate any significant agro. Druids on the other hand have to live with being a main tank for part of the fight if they want to try to keep up with all these agro dropping meleers for damage unless they have a really good Paladin or SK as MT.

<strong>Healing is a cleric's ONLY route to exp. If youre healing is equivalent to Cleric healing, whats that leave Clerics with? </strong>

With 15 classes you'd figure that, hey, maybe more than 1 class can heal, there are after all only 6 people in a group. If all classes are equally represented (and all groups have a full 6 people) thats only 1 cleric for every 2.5 groups.

Adding in more posts from the other thread.
===============================

Yrys said:
After reading all these posts, while I think there are a lot of interesting ideas, quite frankly I think the problems are not with the druid class (which is now pretty balanced and rocks), but with some unfortunate game design decisions.

* PoP mobs (at least tier 2+) were DESIGNED to require slow, and their dps was adjusted to be reasonable while 70-75% slowed. There's little doubt about that.

(The exp change will help somewhat with this, as we'll be able to exp reasonably well in non-PoP zones without a slower. But it's somewhat of a cop-out, IMO, as slowers are still very much a requirement in PoP.)

* It sucks to lose 6%-20% exp whenever you die, and in dungeons, dying means the person has to run back if there is no rezzer, which isn't even always possible. People expect rezzes when they die and some won't start/join a group where there are no rezzes. Furthermore, why settle for a lesser rez when you can get a 96% from a cleric? Unfortunately the game has been designed around clerics having the best rez, and making other classes have similar rezzes might affect cleric desirability.



While I get a lot of group invites from friends and guildmates, more often than not we end up with a shaman-bot and/or a cleric-bot as well, just because rezzes and slows are so required by the game.

*shrug*

I don't think the druid class really needs much right now; just that some of these flaws need to be looked at.

===============================

Geddine said:
Yep the problem is Res. Druid's will always be down the line for groups. Groups will take a Paladin over a Druid becuase he can res and group heal.

Lately, especially since the new 75% heals, druids have found it a little easier to get groups, but thats becuase they will be the healer. The easier part is becuase the group cannot find a cleric.

Now Clerics get their best res at 57 and it costs 600 mana. Which to any cleric is a fair amount of mana at 57. Now clerics have a click res, which makes ressing for a cleric less of a burden. Now it was trialed before in one expansion to give druids a res type spell, but was removed before testing was even finished.

Is there a huge reason (other than upsetting Clerics) not to give Druids a res type spell at 61-65 that costs around 1200 mana to cast. Druids will not help a group recover from a wipe very fast, actually it would be painstakingly slow but it will give the group th oppurtunity to recover at least. (Even if the cost was 2K, it doesn't matter, even if the cost was a full mana bar, it is having the ability that counts not the cost of it).

Currently I believe the druid to be a very valuable member of any group, it is the playing communities "perception" of the druid class that makes it hard. If a group perceives that a druid's healing is going to cause mass deaths (due to inefficiency), and there is no cleric around to res those excess deaths then a druid is a hiindrance not a help.

Peoples perception of a class is the hardest thing in the world to change, I wish you luck.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Absolutely untrue.

I know a cleric who solo'd from 56-63 in PoJ.

Clerics can solo if they want to, they just have to melee instead of nuke to do it[/quote]

and I know druids who main heal in HOH and BOT with no problems. that does not make it the norm. To say clerics can solo if they want to is to say druid can main heal in elemental planes if they want to. Neither one will be too dang efficient.

1. Reduce the mana cost on Karana's Renewal. I have a good sized mana pool and good mana regen and this spell kills me when I use it as a main heal. There's something wrong when we have to use our lesser cheal spell just to stay efficient mana-wise in groups.
2. Reduce the refresh timer on SotW.
3. Make Karana's Renewal and Tunare's Renewal work with Healing Gift.

I really have no idea what to add that would make druids more desirable than any other classes for a group WITHOUT hurting over classes group desirabilities. Improved heals and rezz? All of a sudden PoK has become flocked with a lot more HoV-for-donation clerics. Improved nukes? Whoops, the wizard community is in uproar again. A Lv 65 improved pet spell (Neo-Bobo!!!!!)? Mages seem to be leaving burning top-hats with dead bunnies on Sony property now.

Perhaps new stackable group mana regen buffs or a new variety of druid only group procs with self heals, nukes, etc? Why not add in something new like a buff that automatically causes the target to radiate a nuke that hits mobs in range much like a bard song, except without hitting mezzed mobs?

People can quote what they want, but I was at my friends house last night.

Him and his fiancee both play EQ.

He has a 65 wizard, she has a 64 chanter. They sat down in PoT with LFG flag up and got an invite to a PoV group within the 10 minutes I was there.

They said that is usual the time it takes for them to get a group. Right from the horses mouth "We never have to wait for groups, I mean, who wouldnt want a 65 wizard or a 64 chanter in their group"

No truer of a statement was uttered by someone and how often to you hear people say "Now who wouldnt want a 65 druid in their group?"

Just more examples of either a real issue we face or player percepetion of us, but either way, it sucks.

Lindara Said:

I'd often sit in a group waiting for a monster to die knowing that I can drop 4 nukes on a mob mana-wise but only have the agro to do 2.


In my experience no experience mobs live long enough for me to have time to cast 4 nukes.

They often don't last long enough for 3, and then I would have to start casting at the point of engage.

Agro issues aside, high dmg output/low hp mobs are not conducive to chain casting our slow nukes.

one problem as I see it with getting into the core groups is that I believe thorns & regen is supposed to balance versus slow...which it does not.

How about a 30% druid slow that will stack with one other druids slow. And a slight bump in healing. Bam, one or two druids can now quasi cleric, quasi shammy.

I could be off my rocker.

Karanas Renewal should be on line with 5k for 400 or at most 500 mana or 6 to 7.5K for 600 Mana.

Currently using a 600 mana heal vs 400 Mana Heal is in a chain or casting situation similiar to druid having 1/3 of his mana pool gone in smoke. So a Very Very Well Equipped Druid with a mana pool of 5k has an effective Cleric Mana Pool under 3500. We have clerics in the high 50s with mana pools
of 3500.

When it comes to offensive firepower, a 64 Cleric will outnuke a 58 Druid. Why shouldn't a 64 Druid be able to keep up with a 58 Cleric?

Clerics should be the healing Kings. However, adjusting KR
and they still will be.

Give me one reason a 60 or lower cleric should be a better healer than a 65 Druid.

Especially when you look at the respect kings of trinity slow/warrior. 59 Shaman or 65 Chanter/Bst. Easy.
59 Warrior or 65 Ranger

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
To say clerics can solo if they want to is to say druid can main heal in elemental planes if they want to. Neither one will be too dang efficient.
[/quote]

I main heal in all elemental planes besides air just fine thank you. Because of the way it goes and the times that I am on, I end up being main healer for an elemental group a couple times a week usually, and I've never had a problem doing it.

Usually the only only issue that comes up is if I have a dc pet I can't both be main healer and nuke some because often between the 3 I generate too much agro.

As to Virtue/HoV... I hardly ever see that spell cast anymore. Everyone I know besides Paladins (and including the main tank if it's a warrior) would rather have 9+kazad. I admit, if the choice is between *just* 9 and *just* virtue, tanks would prefer virtue; however, the casters I know would still prefer 9 for the mana regen. So I don't think 9 has become useless, at least not among the peer group I play with and am around.

I wonder how the effect of giving us the symbol line at a rate similar to where paladin's get them would affect balance?

- Xylem, E'ci

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>1. Healer (Cleric/Shaman/Druid)
2. Slower (Shaman/Chanter/Beast)
3. MA (Warrior/Pally/SK/Ranger/Beast)
4. DPS (ROG/Wizzy/Mage/Beast/Monk/Ranger)
5. DPS (ROG/Wizzy/Mage/Beast/Monk/Ranger)
6. DPS (ROG/Wizzy/Mage/Beast/Monk/Ranger)
[/quote]

Ranger and Bst main assists. Damn, you must have tricked out ranger friends. And what a waste of DPS. . .

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What do druids have that compare to THAT? Who (even CASTERS now) in the group really would take POT9 over that? I rarely get casters clicking off their HoV for a POTG (grated i dont have pot9, but still .. HP / AC is very very desired)[/quote]

Any non-cleric caster that takes HoV over Pot9 or PotG (+symbol!) is ignorant or has very LoM clerics.

Kazad + PotG costs you 30 hps, and gives you 6 mana per tick.
Kazad + Pot9 gives you 100 more hps, and gives you 8 mana per tick.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Grouping in PoP you need a top notch group.[/quote]

No, grouping in PoP gets better the better your group is. You can make do with very low end groups. You just have to be careful, and your xp slows down.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Healing is a cleric's ONLY route to exp. If youre healing is equivalent to Cleric healing, whats that leave Clerics with? [/quote]

Healing is every melee's ONLY route to exp. If the only healing that can stand up to PoP DPS is cleric healing, whats that leave melee with?

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>and in dungeons, dying means the person has to run back if there is no rezzer, which isn't even always possible.[/quote]

Very important this.

Dungeons need a rezzer for when one person dies. Or some sort of single-death-mitigation ability. With DoN inc, other classes need some "single death in group" mitigation abilities.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>So I don't think 9 has become useless, at least not among the peer group I play with and am around.[/quote]

I think it would be an interesting experiment to shift some HPs from Kazad to Po9, while keeping Virtue/Aego the same.

Weaken the cleric "Symbol" line, strengthen the cleric "Courage" line and the druid "Skin" line.

Clerics would be able to buff for exactly as much, druids and druids+shamen could buff for more, and druids+clerics would be the same or better.

rule #1. People need to learn about spellstacking.

Even a cleric can get better buffs using Pot9 instead of their selfbuff due to that it stacks with Focus.
Pot9+kazad+focus, whatever... is the way to go for everyone except pallies /shrug.
What needs to be fixed is the duration of the spells, thats the only advantage Virtue has, it lasts forever compared to Symbol. Either nerf Virtue or extende symbol/potx duration.

To give some idéas how I would like to improve our class.

- 1 new quick casting heal similar to Supernal Rememdy but heal a bit less (similar to Supernal Light vs Natures Infusion).
- Increase added AC by SotW to ~200 and either make it last longer or reduce the recast time.
- 1 new quick casting lure snare.
- Give Wrath of the Wild a 33HP rune per level, so level 3 would have 100hp rune. (giving it a tiny chanse to hit twice).
- Allow people in wolfform to bash and remove the squeeling sound when the wolf gets hit, sounds like a puppy gettin beat up every time right now... (I have seen a real life dog jump up and bash/tackle a big full grown human to the ground with a boom, a wolf should be able to bash!)
- Give us a single target wolf form spell to buff meles, casters wanna use horse anyway.
- Allow Wolfform indoors.
- Fix levitate so people dont bobb upp and down, just make them levitate without the bobbing ;)
- 1 or 2 more active spellslots, druids are very versatile, we could utilize it even better if we had more spellslots, give more spllslots to every class thou.
- Allow illusions to last when zoning (give enchanters back any AA they spent on that same skill)


Besides all this, fix the friggin player model and animations, every raider is using the old models due to that the luclin models suck so friggin bad performance wise, add to that their horrible animations. /shiver

If I may interject a completely different approach that was hinted on by Oldoak. There is absolutely no problems with druid abilities. I believe them to be the most balanced class in the game spanning healing, damage, movement mitigation, and transportation. I have had druid main healers plenty of times in BoT when the druid is the puller as well. I've had a druid main healer when I have a 900dps elemental pet in BoT as well and maintained the pet for two hours. The skill of the druid in these circumstances was the differentiating mark.

What is not allowing the grand utility of the druid to shine is the current game content: (1) Mobs don't flee (i.e. no need for snare) in the upper levels and if they do it usually doesn't matter (like who cares if a PoV golem is able to walk away 30 feet before it bites the dust). (2) Mob density is particularly low in most of PoP because of the wide open areas and so therefore again snare is not needed unless you get an overpull and are kiting rooting the add. (3) GYs are a great feature--nothing worse than begging for a summons or a multi-hour CR. However, once again, the design of most PoP zones (unlike a Sebilis, CT, or Chardok dungeon) negates the need for evacing--another useful druid skill that used to get wizards and druids groups in those kind of dungeons. (4) Heals require slow for efficient exping. This wasn't the case before PoP. Exp for specific deep areas or dungeons like CT, slow was great but not required. This has changed. This places a premium on Shaman and Enchanters and even Beast Lords (there are very few at the higher level but I see more being born all the time so this looks to change). This isn't specific to the druid but a game design that hurts the power of the healing classes in general and more so for Non-clerics who have smaller, less efficient heals. (5) Who would of thought we'd be exping off 25K hit point mobs but that is the norm now. This makes the relative power of nuking less, which is fine but the druid will almost never be chosen as a damage dealer. So as a consideration for a group that spot will almost most assuredly be relagated to a pure DPS class (i.e. mage, wizard, rogue, ranger, necro if they have their spells, and beast lord if they are equipped decently).

Therefore, I submit, that current game design has caused the diminishment of many classes, including the druid. SOE has unknowingly created class rifts, not by bestowing sets of abilities upon certain classes and not on others but by there overall game design. If CT and Sebilis were to become truly viable exp zones (and I don't mean crappy exp but equivalent or nearly equivalent to PoP exp) then the current spell line-up and AA abilities of druids would be highly valued for any group. You may still want that cleric/shaman as main healer/slower if the mobs in Seb started hitting for 400+ but given the dynamics of that dungeon and no GYs you would be wise to have a snare and evacer--and having very good heals and when needed nukes is a bonus that would, IMO, revitalize the druid class.

So no easy fix. The future content seems to be moving in that direction so that is a good thing. Hopefully we can all hang around long enough to see it.

<strong>In my experience no experience mobs live long enough for me to have time to cast 4 nukes.

They often don't last long enough for 3, and then I would have to start casting at the point of engage.</strong>

Quick damage, casting time focus and Blessing is a 35% or better reduction in nuke cast time overall, so Winter's Frost is just over 4 seconds to cast, still damn long, but enough to get a few off.

With 5 people doing 200dps each you're still looking at a good 20 to 30 seconds per mob. Of course, if you have charmed pets going mobs might be dying literally before you could get a single nuke off.

Reposted, from Profundox:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Shaman, druid and BL are variations on a single theme. There is so much overlap in capabilities that they have to strictly enforce the class defining capabilities just so people can tell them apart. I'm starting a petition - get rid of druids, give shaman better heals and worse melee. No one will notice the lack of druids because no need for ports anymore.

Who needs 'em?
[/quote]

Moved here from another thread on my own:

the druid class is according to SOE one of 2 Jack of all trade class's in the game. Bard and Druid

If you think of it this way, and balance the druid to the bard, you have a huge disparity, Bards can find groups, and druids cant. I wonder why that is, maybe its slow, mezz, Uber mana regen, pulling, Haste cap increase just to name a few.....

All you people saying you think the druid class is great just how it is are one of two things.

1. Delusional... for this i cant blame you, most times its not your fault

2. Full of PooPoo... for this i can blame you, Drop the fear that a druid might actually take your spot in a group and let a whole group of EQ players have some fun also.

Soloing sucks, almost no one likes it, and i can assure you, with the inc exp nerf its going to be even less fun for those that do enjoy it.

Absor has given us a unique opportunity to suggest how we can make our class more attractive to groups. But before responding to that, I think we need to give credit where it is due since we have also expressed our dread toward the upcoming soloing/ grouping XP changes. Thank you for reading these boards and posting. Thank you for the level 58 heal spell, it has certainly given me new life. And I think the general direction of rewarding grouping is an excellent one. Which leads to the topic at hand: druids cannot get groups despite their versatility. My suggestions are based on the PoP druid, level 61 to 65, taking the whole range into account.

<strong>1) Why arent druids sought after for groups?</strong>

Perception is only part of the problem. It's no secret we're pretty good at most things and the best in nothing (except PLing and travel). That makes use a jack-of-all-trades class. The rewards and risks of PoP are extreme, so I cannot blame people for wanting the best class for any given role. We do everything well, but that's not good enough for the high stakes of PoP. The category of priest class is now secondary to our new defining status: multi-functional.

Compared to the other multi-functional classes (Bards and Beastlords), we are sorely lacking. Beastlords offer DPS, mana regen, and respectable slow. Their mana regen will stack with anything. Bards offer melee, mez, charm, mana/hp regen, haste, resists, improved damage, most everything. Most of those things stack with everything and are off the charts when it comes to noticing an improvement.

Those two classes are not very common, so they ought to have better quality buffs than druids. We are too numerous, giving us something equal would be unbalancing. The trouble is our buffs DON'T stack like theirs, and are often over-written by the other priest classes. In the end we only get groups when there is no cleric or shaman in EQ that's LFG. On the DPS side we're not going to have much luck when all melee, all hybrids, wizards, mages, and necros can offer more DPS.

<strong>2) What can make druids more attractive to groups?</strong>

My suggestions are to improve and expand on abilities that we already have, not to steal another class's defining ability. No rez (ridiculously overpowering), no general slow (Druids affect animals, not all mobs).

<strong>A.</strong> You made us a viable alternative to the cleric with the incomplete heal. Take that further and make us more reliable healers in a way that emphasizes the group. Very few groups can XP without healers, so make us a more viable alternate rather than a last resort.

<strong>B.</strong> Give us some modest stacking buffs like the other multi-functional classes have.

<strong>3) Specific suggestions: </strong>

--Lower the re-use time on Spirit of the Wood from 22 mins to 16 mins. This shouldn't unbalance high end encounters with massive ae damage because MGB isn't going to recycle and they're not going to last that long anyway.
--Mana/hp regen group buff that stacks with everything like Bard/ Beast buffs. An extension of our self-buff Mask series and Nature's Recovery, both of which stack with standard priest regen buffs but not NR or Mask. Level 61 (2 per tick), level 63 (3 per tick), level 65 (4 per tick). Preferably vendor sold ;)
--A group heal spell. Very useful, but only Paladins have a spell version. We have SotW, give us a spell version that makes us attractive to groups and raids. We'll be better healers without upsetting Clerics.
--Give DOTs a chance to crit without AA abilities.
--AA ability to call forth a swarm of pets that are more lethal than Booboo. "Murder of Ravens" a swarm of level 45 ravens attacks a target for 30 seconds, re-use time 30 mins. Outdoor only.
--Group mini-evac spell. Move the group 100 feet away without zoning, 1.5 second cast time. Similar to the low level Necromancer spell (forget the name).
--40% to 60% (level 61 to 65) animal-only slow.
--300 HP symbol-like buff that stacks with Cleric symbols and PotX line, but not Cleric HP buffs. 700 mana, regeant: imbued emerald/ plains pebble.

I think these suggestions are modest and will go a long way in making us more attractive to groups. They don't pull something unexpected out of the hat since we have all these abilities in some form already. They also offer something unique without stepping on anyone's toes or giving us something overpowering. They are group-oriented, so they help Druids move in the direction SOE is going instead of leaving us stranded. Thanks for your time.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Weaken the cleric "Symbol" line, strengthen the cleric "Courage" line and the druid "Skin" line[/quote]

where does the component cost go in this? is the component transferred to the courage and skin line? If not the symbol would never be cast. casting the symbol results in higher costs in mana and components and an extra buff slot(valuable in raids)

I was healing on Yellow to 65 mobs in PoE yesterday. Only healer in the group... Our healing is pretty much fine. Only a few problems with druid healing. One is aggro control. Druids have only 2 forms of aggro control. Do nothing, just stand there or die. That's it. I die ALOT more then the clerics in my guild do. We both have to heal the same mobs, we both get the same aggro, but the druid dies to it.

I'm not sure what to do about it. I do NOT want DA or FD, but maybe a form of jolt or concussion or something? I'd love a aap that did this. Say, something like say 3aap for neg 125 hate and 3 or 4 tick recast. 4aap for n250 hate, 5aap for n500 hate. This would also help with our dps/debuffing aggro. One of our biggest aggro issues is having to heal right after debuffing a mob. We're usually the only healer in our group and while our initial debuff doesn't drag the mob on to us, having to toss a heal right afterwards can be a death sentence.

Our other main healing issue is the cost of our heals. Karana's Renewal's cost needs to be lowered to around 450 or so. Lowering SoTW to say a 16 min recast, even if we had to spend say 3 more aap for that bonus would also help out alot. Upping the AC and DS on it wouldn't hurt. You could easily double both with out any balancing issues at all.

Other minor issues would be adding a neg100-150 to Eci's resist adjustment. That's about all druids really need.

Concerning Rez's. Druids DO NOT need any spell castable version of ANY rez. Period. However, after saying that. I don't think that a priest only (ie. one that has to be equiped to cast) 5 charge rez stick wouldn't be too unbalancing. Give it 3 to 5 charges and allow clerics to recharge it with a spell and a 400ish pp per charge component (Cleric imbues 5 gems, then combines them and the stick in a tinkersbag). Make it 85-90% and a 30sec+ cast time. Oh, a level 60 min level on it too. Be nice to make a 50ish (55?) min on the level of the rez taker. Make the cleric spell be 61+.


Now, on to the REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES WITH THE GAME ATM.
1. Fix melee issues with PoP & PoP boss mobs. Nothing sadder then watching a paladin throwing daggers at a boss cause he can't do anything else worth while without risk of wiping the raid or doing more harm then his melee dps can add. Monks and Rogues have the most serious issues with this and rogues need a definite boost in DPS.
2. Fix the issues with PoE and PoA rings. PoE is a once a patch usable raid zone. Nothing like spending a hour clearing a ring in PoA and having nothing at all pop or having a PH pop 7 days after the last killing in PoE. That or publicly tar and feathering the DEV's for those rings and PoE in general. Either or would make me happy. Actually, I'd rather see option B ;)

of all the ideas that have been presented the improved Booboo bear pet and some form of agro reduction seem the most logical.... at least to me.

Consider this,

(A)Druid healing is now effective in a secondary role to clerics in a group. The mob agro's the cleric, with their damage mitigation(plate class) there is usually time for us to heal them, allowing the tank to attempt to regain agro. If by some chance we do get agro, the cleric can use one of their fast big heals to keep us alive. I have seen ping pong mobs jumping back and forth between the druid and cleric while the tank establishes agro. We work very well in my opinion as a secondary healer to a cleric.

(B)Druid utility roles in group have become almost nil with PoP. Mobs dont run anymore, hence no need for snare. PoP mobs hit so increadibly hard, that without slow most are close to if not completely impossible with out it. Once a mob is slowed, Damage sheilds are basically useless. Every PoP zone has a GraveYard, making group evac less a way to save a group from a wipe out and more of a way to save a bit of time when the group disbands and everyone needs to get back to the IZ.

(C)Druid DPS is somewhere in the middle of the pack(remember we are considering a normal druid here). Our DD's are respectable, but the agro created trying to debuff a mob so that we can land a DD successfully on a mob in PoP creates a situation where over agro is far too easy. This limits our total DPS output in a way that i think even SoE didnt intend(sometimes game mechanics are hard to predict).

Having said that, consider this....

SoE has made it very clear that soloing is not the way to play their game. So how do you improve the Druid class as a whole. While at the same time not making us better at soloing? This is really where the issue as it stands get very complicated.

(A)If you improve the druid healing ability, ie. faster heals, larger heals, group heals, and hot heals. You will acomplish two things......

1. you will make druids a very viable option for group in pop and everywhere else.

2. This would crowd into cleric territory, and it seems that honestly most of the druids(on this board anyhow) dont really want to do that.

(B)If you were to try to Work on some of the game mechanics to make druid utility spells more effective you run into problems.....

1. Changing the way mobs respond for a whole expansion is a very complicated.

2. Changing a whole expansion for one class, is at the very least a very poor way to spend your Dev team hours.

3. Once you do change the expansion to make druids utilities more useful, you have just changed the whole feel of the expansion for every other class, compounding the need for another change that in return needs another change ect. ect. ect.

(C)Making our DPS higher seems the natural route to go. It offers the least problems with game balance, class balance, and game mechanics. There are many ways to make the druid a more potent DPS class.

1. Lessen the cast time on our DD's
2. Increase our DoTs effectiveness in reguard to faster dying mobs in PoP
3. Give druids some form of agro reduction
4. lessen the resists on our Debuffs and DD's
5. Make Booboo a more formitable force

Lets consider these 5 options individually

1. Lessen the cast time on our DD's

This is possibly the easiest way concerning game mechanics to improve a druids dps. The only problem i see here, the better we are a DD, the better we are at soloing.

2. Increase our DoTs effectiveness in reguard to faster dying mobs in PoP

This falls into the same realm of improved DD's. The better our DoT chew up a mob the better better we can solo.

3. Give druids some form of agro reduction

This idea has a ton of appeal, if we can reduce our relative agro to the tank in our group, we can supply more DPS. This route would also make the druid a better group healer, remove the need to revamp all our spells, and really has no way of making the druid a better soloing class.

4. lessen the resists on our Debuffs and DD's

Changing this would make the druid less reliant on the Debuff then DD method, and in the instances where a debuff was needed, resists would be less common. Generating less agro for the druid allowing for more DD and less sitting there knowing one more DD will get a "you will not evade me Suda!!!" The problem here again is, the easier it is for us to DD the easier it is for us to Solo.

5. Make Booboo a more formitable force

The spell already exists. so there is no new ability to write code for. Up Booboo's total hps, and make him hit harder and you have more DPS for druids. Now you have a pet that is nearly mana free(you gotta haste him and keep him buffed) that can add DPS to a group, and at the same time does not seriously improve a druids ability to solo, Without a slow Booboo would not be able to tank for us.

In summary, option 3 and 5 seems the most viable, from a game balance, game mechanics, and class balance point of view, at least to me.

Now i am not one of the Dev people, so my ideas how the game works could be totally off and I dont pretend to understand or represent the druid class as a whole. So if i am way off, let me know :D

Heh, having played a bard I think I can safely say that a group shadowstep is NOT something we want...flinging group members randomly in all directions. :) (Ask a bard about Melanie's Mellifluous Motion...)

One of the biggest reasons many people don't go with 9/kazad, aside from buff duration issues, is the limited number of buff slots. Even in a single group often the main tank doesn't have room for non-essential spells. Heh, come to think of it, the lack of buff slots is preventing us from using a number of our minor abilities sometimes--too many times people don't have room for damage shields and nature's recovery and such. The bard buff box helped significantly (for groups with bards) but wasn't quite enough.

I like your options suda with a couple of adds.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>2. Increase our DoTs effectiveness in reguard to faster dying mobs in PoP

This falls into the same realm of improved DD's. The better our DoT chew up a mob the better better we can solo.[/quote]

actually Suda this is not quite true. By the time I am done casting my 4th dot while soloing my 1st has usually worn off. by making the dot do its same amount of damage faster it would not help soloing. So with the current dot system while soloing I cast dot 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2. With faster acting dots I would be casting 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3. (the cast time plus the recast time on the dots is the limiting factor in how many can be cast in a certain amount of time-not how long they last after being cast) The overall damage soloing would stay close to the same. But in groups where the mob dies when only 2/3 of my dot has been used it would help.

KR moved to a straight 7K heal for 600 mana. have not seen much against this. Still only 2/3 as mana efficient as clerics but would heal most main tanks completely.

AA and focus working on all druid healing should be a foregone conclusion. combined with the above heal this would provide a flashy number for groups.

Why shouldnt druids have DA. It is a good way to deal with aggro when you are only healers and evac is not practical? DA is not something you pop off on a whim. Is not reusable for quite a while and you cant cast or be cast upon while in use, but it would let druids remain in area while tank regained aggro and then start healing again.

For me as a druid and cleric those would be the changes I want.

Druid healing improved but still not too close to clerics.

DA and Spell casting subtlety to deal with aggro.

Faster acting dots to actually get to utilize them in groups

boo boo as a real pet

That lets clerics and druids compete for a healer slot in two different ways. Cleric is best healer and has rez. Druid should be able to handle the healing and resulting aggro easier then currently and brings more dps.

In my ultimate dream world it would be

situation 1. Party needs a healer with just one slot open

level 58 cleric LFG
Level 58 druid LFG

the cleric gets picked for his better healing


Situation 2. Party needs a healer with just one slot open

Level 58 druid LFG

Druid gets the group with no hesitation--go out and exp rather than waiting

Situation 3. Party already has a healer and one slot open

Level 58 druid LFG
Level 58 cleric LFG

Druid gets the spot cause they offer more to a group that already has healing

Situation 4. Party already has a healer and one slot open

Level 58 cleric LFG

cleric gets the spot cause he would have something to add

Situation 5. Someone has just 1 hour to play

Everyone should be able to solo and have some fun


Currently situation 1 and 3 already exist and 4 is a 50/50 chance if they think their current healer might leave sometime soon. In our not so perfect world 2 and 5 do not. Hopefully, with the suggestions you made and maybe with mine included also, situation 2 could be changed. 5 is not your problem. However SOE's handling of 5 is what is starting all of this.

Hi, ranger here but I am here to assist if I can in any way – I can sympathize with the problems druids face in asking for group upgrades. With the utility you guys have (like we do), it’s often difficult to get upgrades that help balance us in a raid or group but at the same time not make us even more prone to soloing.

Reading through some of these threads, I hear alot of talk about too much aggro with nukes. Is it possible that if you got our Ranger jolt line this would help out? We have both jolt (magic resist check) and Cinder Jolt (Fire resist check) - they are not as reliable as evade, feign death or concussion, but it might be helpful.

<strong>Jolt</strong>
Slot Description
1: Decrease Hate by 500
Mana: 60 Skill: Alteration
Casting Time: 1.5 Recast Time: 2.25
Fizzle Time: 2.25 Resist: Magic
Range: 200 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Deletable: Yes
Interruptable: Yes Target Type: Single
Spell Type: Detrimental Source: Live 06/05

<strong>Cinder Jolt</strong>
Slot Description
1: Decrease Hate by 500
Mana: 60 Skill: Alteration
Casting Time: 1.5 Recast Time: 2.25
Fizzle Time: 2.25 Resist: Fire
Range: 200 Location: Any
Time of Day: Any Deletable: Yes
Interruptable: Yes Target Type: Single
Spell Type: Detrimental Source: Live 06/05

As for the role as healer - I can offer my perception. I have the good fortune of knowing and playing with many great druids, and I always welcome one in a group if there is room. However, without a cleric around, my total hitpoints are going to be so much lower with just druid buffs that the druid will be penalized with healing me twice (less hitpoints on me and less efficiency to heal). If I already have a virtue or khaz then grouping with a druid healer is much easier.

I think this was mentioned by someone on another thread, but why not give druids a buff won't stack with either virtue or 9 but will allow them to buff as main healer in a group, it would allow them to be the only healer in the group but not make it so that a cleric isn't wanted.

CURRENTLY, i have the following options:

<strong>Virtue</strong>
1:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Stacking: Block new spell if slot 3 is effect 'Max Hitpoints' and < 1405
2:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase Max Hitpoints by 1405
3:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase HP when cast by 1405
4:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase AC by 72
5:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Stacking: Overwrite existing spell if slot 3 is effect 'Max Hitpoints' and < 1405

OR

<strong>Khaz</strong>
3:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase Max Hitpoints by 910
4:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase HP when cast by 910

<strong>AND<strong>

<strong>Protection of </strong></strong></strong>
1:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase AC by 32
2:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase Max Hitpoints by 618
3:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase HP when cast by 618
4:00&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Increase Mana by 8 per tick



As a Ranger, I like the extra hitpoints and the mana regen, so I love to have a druid AND a cleric in the group.

BUT, if there is no cleric, just getting 9 on a tank is not so good. What about making an upgrade to the Natureskin Line and have it NOT stack with Blessing of the Nine?


<strong>Natureskin</strong>
1: Increase AC by 18 (L57) to 19 (L60)
2: Increase Max Hitpoints by 391 (L57) to 415 (L65)
3: Increase HP when cast by 391 (L57) to 415 (L65)
5: Increase Hitpoints by 4 per tick

Have it be slightly less AC and Hitpoints then Virtue but with the regen aspect. Now if there is no cleric available, groupmembers can utilize a druid more effectively. Casters can still get 9 and Tanks can get the one with Regen which will provide them with a much better skin buff then 9 gives them and also the added regen which will help the druid heal. Maybe add a stackable DS into this line too. As for working the stacking, it can be done similarly to the way that someone can either choose Brells or Strength of Tunare and have them block the other overwriting.

Good luck to you folks and hope maybe some of this can help.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>We have both jolt (magic resist check) and Cinder Jolt (Fire resist check) - they are not as reliable as evade, feign death or concussion...[/quote]
Lol whaaa?

Concussion is the most resisted spell in game. And we don't have 2 concussions that check against different saves, like you rangers do have.
Our concussion checks against magic and is often resisted.
Aside that, there is a reason why no other class gets concussion but Wizards. (Can't have it all, heh?)

Sage Natan Magus
65 Arcanist
MM
www.forsakenrealm.org

I highly doubt a druid with a jolt line would come anywhere close to the dps that a wizard can dish out.

fixed my sig, man it's been a long time since I used ezboards lol

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I highly doubt a druid with a jolt line would come anywhere close to the dps that a wizard can dish out.[/quote]
I did not say that, but it is highly questionable why especially druids should get a concussion-like spell, if NO other DD dealer but Wizards have this spell line at disposal... (Maybe we can do some trades, heh? You give us that and we give you that and so on? ;) )

it's a form of aggro control and other DD dealers have various methods to control it, just not in the same way. I don't think giving a druid a form of this will in any way threatens wizards.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>it's a form of aggro control and other DD dealers have various methods to control it[/quote]
What other DD dealer has another methog to control aggro? (Don't come me with Necros, their DDs are by far inferior to yours...)
You know.. you don't have to get everything... Concussion is a quest spell, that no other casting class gets. I am not talking about 'threatening Wizards' or something along those lines, i could care less.

I only think, the class lines are blurred already enough and there is absolutely no need to blurr them even more. I can hardly see Mages as int casters get concussion IF that, but not a priest class.

You know, the concussion line was given to us, because we do nothing else than nuking. We RELY on our mana to do damage and we do nothing else than damage via our nukes. We have no pet, we have no 10 min snare, we have no heals, no buffs, no debuffs, no DoTs.
That's the reason why we got concussion.

You can't have it all.

My theories on Druid enhancements and increased group ability...

- Increase the effectivness of the Attack debuffs. These are somewhat unique, and having them actually mean something would go a long way for grouping.

- Increase the damage of the upper end damage shields by ALOT. Right now they hardly put a dent even in a fast hitting unslowed mob (not that anyone would be crazy enough to take that kind of punishment for long)

- Increase the yield on Nature's Recovery, make it closer to a Heal over Time, or introduce an upgrade.

- AA Ability Wrath of the Wild is a fun toy, but not much more. Perhaps instead of a one shot DS, it should have been something similar to the Shaman wolf pack, say a single large heavy hitting bear pet that disapears after a while. Much more useful.

- Bring the agro of our attack spells down to be the same as the other classes, it sure seems that they generate unusually high agro, and I don't see the need for that.

- Heal agro is a bit on the high side, especially for a class that can only mitigate agro by rooting the mob... not always a good idea.

I don't really want any extra abilities.. I don't need to heal like a cleric or nuke like a wizard or be able to slow or resurect.. would simply like what I can currently do be more meaningful to a group.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You know.. you don't have to get everything... Concussion is a quest spell, that no other casting class gets. I am not talking about 'threatening Wizards' or something along those lines, i could care less.

I only think, the class lines are blurred already enough and there is absolutely no need to blurr them even more. I can hardly see Mages as int casters get concussion IF that, but not a priest class.

You know, the concussion line was given to us, because we do nothing else than nuking. We RELY on our mana to do damage and we do nothing else than damage via our nukes. We have no pet, we have no 10 min snare, we have no heals, no buffs, no debuffs, no DoTs.
That's the reason why we got concussion.

You can't have it all. [/quote]

Ok, breaking down your argument i get the following reasons from you for druids not getting jolt:

Druids should not get jolt because:

1. You don't have to get everything
2. Wizards have to quest concussion
3. Druids casting jolt will blur the class line between Druids and Wizards
4. Concussion was given to wizards because they are pure nukers.
5. You can't have it all (see #1)

None of those are good arguments imo.
Did you think it was blurring the class lines when Rangers got jolt?
How will this blur the class lines between Druids and Wizards - having an aggro reducing spell wouldn't threaten wizards in terms of damage. Wizards have a snare spell, does this blur the class line?


EDIT - adding this since this board won't let me post anymore today

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What do you think about haveing int casters (preferably Wizards):

- SoW
- Blessing of the 12 (since we need an upgarde to that... )
- SINGLE target snare (Wiz don't get single target snares that cost only 30 something mana and last for 10 minutes)
- Some heals... i think we will be ok with 90% of druids healing...
- Some debuffs. Again, 90% of your debuffing power should be sufficient.
- DoTs. Let's say 60% of your DoT power here. Just to have it.
- Regen spells. (90% here of your spells again, to stay in line with the other healing psells...)
- 160% of your WInter's Frost spell (since we lack a big cold based nuke)
- Your DC charm

Now we are talking. Yup, i think after those changes it would be justified for you to get Concussion. Want to make a petition for that?
[/quote]

It's a false analogy Natan, are you seriously that dense? Is concussion 90% of what a wizard has? Concussion, just like Ranger jolt, is just a tool to help rangers and wizards be able to control their aggro so that they can do their job more effectively. If Druids are having trouble casting any nukes and heals without getting too much agro then this could work as a similar tool.

Agro reduction is not a wizard defining ability and it's not something that if given to a druid would make them more powerful then a wizard or cleric.

People like you are the part of the problem with why it's so hard for any class balancing. You assume that anything remotely similar to your class would make a need for your class to be rebalanced. There are way too many whiny bitches in Everquest.

If you are going to rebutt my idea, then at least explain how it would blur the class lines or threaten another class. Explain how it would actually have a negative effect on wizards and make druids too powerful. Don't keep posting about how wizards don't have sow, heals or buffs when you yourself know that your class is about pure damage (which you have also said druids don't threaten).


<strong><span style="text-decoration:underline">3rd edit to reply to Natan - this is getting annoying</span></strong>[/u]

Natan, if you are going to use the “thanks, drive through” retort, it’s usually best to actually make a point.

You still have yet to tell me how giving a druid a jolt line would actually hurt wizards.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Well, it is the only thing that WIzards have over Druids except for TLs.
Aside TLs, you get EVEYRTHING that Wizards have... plus all the named abbilities above, Eonowyn.[/quote]

Your nuking power, sustained and burst, is miles ahead of a druid. A jolt line won’t change that, nor will it make you less unique. Do wizards actually think to themselves that they are druids with concussion? give me a break

By the way, I have a gate necklace and a breastplate with gate to lesser faydark!!!! Call the cops and post on the wizard boards, because by your logic I’ve got everything you have!!!. If you want a bigger Ice nuke then go cry about it on the wizard boards, I check those out a lot and don’t see you post much lol.

I’m not a druid, I just am trying to offer suggestions to them for things that could help them without overpowering them or making them a better solo class.

Jolt might not be the solution, but I think you are completely overreacting lol.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>How will this blur the class lines between Druids and Wizards - having an aggro reducing spell wouldn't threaten wizards in terms of damage. Wizards have a snare spell, does this blur the class line?
[/quote]
Heh, 1st - and i said it already - i don't think any Wiz is concerned about your damage output at the moment.

2nd: While we are already on blurring the class lines...

What do you think about haveing int casters (preferably Wizards):

- SoW
- Blessing of the 12 (since we need an upgarde to that... :) )
- SINGLE target snare (Wiz don't get single target snares that cost only 30 something mana and last for 10 minutes)
- Some heals... i think we will be ok with 90% of druids healing...
- Some debuffs. Again, 90% of your debuffing power should be sufficient.
- DoTs. Let's say 60% of your DoT power here. Just to have it.
- Regen spells. (90% here of your spells again, to stay in line with the other healing psells...)
- 160% of your WInter's Frost spell (since we lack a big cold based nuke)
- Your DC charm

Now we are talking. Yup, i think <strong>after</strong> those changes it would be justified for you to get Concussion. Want to make a petition for that? ;)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It's a false analogy Natan, are you seriously that dense? Is concussion 90% of what a wizard has?[/quote]
Well, it is the only thing that WIzards have over Druids except for TLs.
Aside TLs, you get EVEYRTHING that Wizards have... plus all the named abbilities above, Eonowyn.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Concussion, just like Ranger jolt, is just a tool to help rangers and wizards be able to control their aggro so that they can do their job more effectively. If Druids are having trouble casting any nukes and heals without getting too much agro then this could work as a similar tool.[/quote]
Funny how only Druids have this problem and mainly those, who have soloed their way up to 65. Learn to control your aggro.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Agro reduction is not a wizard defining ability and it's not something that if given to a druid would make them more powerful then a wizard or cleric.[/quote]
Ohm ok, it is not a wizard defning abbility... but what other class than maybe rangers have a concussion like line? Thanks, drive through. (I want to mention once more that concussion is the ONLY thing that is unique for the Wizard class save rangers.)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
People like you are the part of the problem with why it's so hard for any class balancing. You assume that anything remotely similar to your class would make a need for your class to be rebalanced. There are way too many whiny bitches in Everquest.[/quote]
Lol, how funny and ironic. Who whines about their state? Druids or Wizards?
If YOU demand and demand and demand only then of course other classes have to be readjusted as well around YOUR new abbilities.
What do you want actually? If you want to nuke harder - make a Wizard or Mage. Want to heal more? Make a Cleric. Want to buff more? Make a shaman.
Heh, this thread is really entertaining.

Oh did i mention already that except TLs and Concussion you get everything from Wizards? So.. cmon please. You got already the bigger Ice blast. Check ours.
Somewhere has to be drawn a line. Thanks for understanding.

Dear Druids....

While you were kiting solo through levels 14-60 (and quading from 49 on) I was killing my critters 1 at a time with great pain and suffering (especially during Kunark/Luclin era).

While you were kiting solo I was forced to group and make friends.

I now have a network of people who I group with and who support me.

Did you ever think that maybe THATS why some of you have difficulty getting groups all the time?

Signed

A Ranger

-----------------------------------------------------------

All joking aside perhaps some of the difficulty does reside in the "anti-social" perception that many druids cart around in their unwanted baggage. To me the druid is one of the most versatile caster classes to group with and to those of you who spend 3 hours "LFG" I would suggest you expand your horizons and look at alternative things to do with your time. I am a mere Ranger but I have been main tank in POV/POS/HOh and way too many places I care to consider. But oh I forget, Rangers cant tank can they? Even with a druid healing it can be done my friends.

I have duo'ed with every other class in about 95 % of the zones, sure it takes adjustment in ones tactics but its not like the content is denied to me because I am one of the "undesirable" classes.

The problem in EQ is other people's perceptions of your ability, not your maximum potential to get those little yellow experience messages. Who needs a cleric when you are agro kiting? Who needs a warrior when a SK/Paladin/Monk/Ranger will do? Who needs an enchanter after you get your KEI in the bazaar and run off with your shamen friend? The "Holy Trinity" is long gone, only need em for raids these days. As you need all the other classes on those raids as well.

Every class has its purpose in EQ and maybe some day some of you will realize that its not WHAT your abilities are in EQ, its how you use them thats important. And EQ is a social game. It's all about who you know. Perhaps that is why Necro's and Druids have such a hard time adjusting to their place in the high end game. Face it, when people choose their classes at level 1 the anti-social solo types pick druid/necro. And where does it leave them at level 65?

I would expand/develop your social network a bit farther before you moan and whine about your grouping desirability. Those people who know better will become your true buddy's.

And BTW I get agro when I chain nuke too .... duh.

Wizards get Concussion at 39 (but the quest isn't realistically doable until what, 50?)
1: &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Decrease Hate by 400
(checks magic, 25 mana, 2 sec cast, 2.5 sec recast)

Rangers get Jolt at 51:
1: &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Decrease Hate by 500
(checks magic, 60 mana, 1.5 sec cast time, 2.25 sec recast)

...and Cinder Jolt at 55:
1: &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Decrease Hate by 500
(checks fire, 60 mana, 1.5 sec cast time, 2.25 sec recast)

Enchanters get Boggle at 61:
1: &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Decrease Hate by 500
(checks magic, 250 mana, 0.5 sec cast time, 3 sec recast)

Bards get Song of Dawn at 53:
1: &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Decrease Hate by 181 (L53) to 187 (L65)...multiplied by the wind modifier I assume
(unresistable, 0 mana, 3 sec cast time, 0 sec recast)

Just for reference. :P

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I would expand/develop your social network a bit farther before you moan and whine about your grouping desirability. Those people who know better will become your true buddy's.[/quote]


How many lectures about social interaction must we endure?

<em>History Lesson: When the game was released, "quadding" wasn't in the EQ vocabulary and most of those who created druids did so for the group friendly travelling abilities where the druid was second to none. With the exception of BGHs (Big Game Hunts), a druid had the tools to heal a group because our spells were adequate for the damage inflicted by the environment.</em>

Now we have to stomach other classes telling us that it is our doing that we cannot get groups? The notion that an entire class is not desired in groups because of the players' social skills is perhaps the most ignorant manifestation of solo envy I have ever seen. People in groups do not say "nah, I don't know the level 62 cleric that is LFG".

That a druid can get a group with their regular grouping buds is a no brainer and not relevant to this discussion. With our regular grouping buds , we will make any group make up work however inefficient or unproductive it may be. That said, I sure wouldn't want one of my friends lobbying in a grind group to get my 61 druid in as main healer when I know the capabilities of any 61 druid will not meet the task. We don't need pity groups, we need the tools to be wanted in groups.

But you left a few out...not gonna list levels just mention abliities...

Necros:
FD (many levels)
Harmshield
Offtanking with Pet
Spell casting subtlety

Rangers...
Jolt
Cinter Jolt
Disc: Weaponshield (last resort, but also used in special circumstances)

Beastlords...
Disc: Protective Spirit
Slow
Offtanking with pet

Bards...
Song of Dawn
Fading Memories
Deft Dance
Spell casting subtlety (!)

Rogues...
Disc: Nimble (and associated aa's)
Evade
Escape (and associated aa's)

Paladins...
DA
Disc: Sanctification
wide variety of chainable stuns
LOH
Their mitigation tables/ac/hp heh

Shadow Knights...
FD
Harmshield
Spell casting subtlety (!)
Their mitigation tables/ac/hp heh

Clerics...
DA (3 types)

Enchanter...
Chainable stuns
Slows
Mezzes
Charms
Boggle
Spell Casting subtlety
Eldritch Rune (like wizzie one buys time and is stackable)


Warrior
Disc: Defensive
Disc: Evasive
Their mitigation tables/ac/hp heh

Magicians...
Spell casting subtlety
Offtanking with Pet

Shamans....
Slow/Queiscence (Torpor)
Offtanking with pet (solid pet)

Monks ...
FD
Disc: Voiddance
Disc: Stone Stance
Rapid FD

Wizards...
Concussion
Force Shield (a last resort of course but gives them 750 extra hp to try to survive agro with)
Spell casting subtlety
Exodus (Last resort)



I will grant that some of these will not really save you if you are in trouble. Slow if it doesn't land for instance, and pet offtanking may not work if you are already at low health agro. But the point is, everywhere I look I see a rich variety of survival tools. FOr druids I see:

Druids...
Cast as slowly as you can
SOTW (if it is up...but it is also your only group heal so you may have used it already). In my experience it rarely is enough to save me though.
Exodus as a last resort.

Great, we can run away

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Great, we can run away[/quote]
Lol this gets even more entertaining (no offense though).

First off, Mages were crying out loud that they have NO kind of defensive spells (snares and root) like... errm ya, Druids got them.
Second, if you solo and you have ot run away you are the fastest running class, save bards. That's nice no?
Third, lol, in groups you shouldn't need to run away... reminds me of the first months after the release of EQ... run to the zoneline... cmon.

In fact druids have some of the best surviving abbllities together with Wizards and Necros.
(Aside that... those regen spells, those heal spells are pretty nice, i think...)

Cmon, don't make it look more hilarious... (I mean like asking for FD :) Waiting for that one.)

Edit: In response to sudawilde:
All i wanted to point out is, that Druids survivability is for sure not worse off than Wizard's or Mage's survivability.
And SoW or SoE is much faster than Run3. Don't come with that, heh.

Natan,

Snares and roots are so unreliable anymore, it seems like half of the mobs are totally resistant, one quarter have a chance to be totally resistant. Druids do not rely on Snare and root anymore to "escape"

Its great being the second fastest class. Sow is not that much faster than run3.

Your line "quick run to the zone line". Seriously, did anyone say we wanted to run? We want a way to mitigate agro in a fashion other than druid paste on the wall.

I have read a few of your other posts, and you have rarely added anything to the conversation other than sarcasm and negativity. If you want a reasonable response from other people, state your ideas, opinions, and thought is an intelligent manner, and I am sure you will receive welcome from everyone here, continue with the degrading posts and people will do much less.

<em>Natan Magus said</em>
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Second, if you solo and you have ot run away you are the fastest running class, save bards.
[/quote]

Eh?

Save Bards, and Rangers, and Shamans and Beastlords, and anyone with a 10-pack SOW potion. Even Run3 will suffice for most mobs. I can't believe we are seriously having a "SOW is teh uber" discussion.

Oddly enough, I know one or two Wizards that actually manage to quad-kite. *scratches head* can't figure THAT one out.

Personally, I don't want a concussion type spell, but it's a perfectly valid discussion to have.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Lol, how funny and ironic. Who whines about their state? Druids or Wizards?
[/quote]
You may not have been to Graffe's lately:

Wizards of Norrath UNITE!
You still say Wizards aren't broken? They are nerfing us!
What about wizards?
Is wizard the master of direct damage now?
Magicians want concussion
Wizards are broken..

Page 1, Class Balance Forum. Funny and ironic indeed. This is not to rag on Wizards, but please allow other classes to have the same sort of internal gripes that you do.

<em>Eoghan007 said</em>
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
While you were kiting solo I was forced to group and make friends.
[/quote]
Sorry to hear that friend, my Ranger wife might have some tips for you. She killed every animal that moves on the face of Norrath, by herself, to lvl 56. I've watched her take down blue griffons and lose half a bubble of health. I've seen her pingpong 3 rockhoppers at once.

Being unaware of your solo options does not remove them.
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
Every class has its purpose in EQ and maybe some day some of you will realize that its not WHAT your abilities are in EQ, its how you use them thats important. And EQ is a social game. It's all about who you know.
[/quote]
Same wife, Kunark Era, I watched her get bummed out over those Ranger /OOC discussions. Remember those? I'm sure you do. To jog your memory, they were NOT along the lines of "Rangers Rock!".

Now, with the great fixes to the Ranger class, people want them. Obviously, I'm happy for that, but please disabuse yourself of the notion that Rangers suddenly developed personalites and social networks.

Concussion/jolt spells would be overpowering for druids to have IMO. A hate reducer would be a huge thing to get. Huge. Can you imagine? We could heal <strong>AND</strong> chain nuke as long as mana held up. I really think that would be too overpowering. Where I find that agro is a problem is really just when I am straight up nuking. Now, don't laugh. I have been an evocation druid since day 1. Its my love. I got SCF3 first thing, before any healing AAs at all. I do understand how to manage agro. Thing is, there are just limits.

I don't see why some sort of more restrictive Casting Subtlety skill wouldn't be appropriate for this part of our dual role. If it were a nuke specific ability, we couldn't reduce hate from our healing/snaring/debuffing so we would be unlikely to be able to abuse the ability and become overpowering. Only when we were placed in a more or less strictly nuking role would such a thing be very effective. I'm not suggesting it be exactly the same as the one casters get for their Archtype ability, only that that could serve as a model. It should be a Planar ability for druids maybe (they can have viscid roots back, ok?) Even give us one for fire based nukes and another for cold based. Make us pay 3,6,9 for the levels. I don't care. We will STILL have to buy up Quick damage in order for it to work well. And we would still get all the agro from debuffing, snaring and healing just like always. I mean heaven forbid anyone from some other class would read my post and think I wanted the sun the moon and the stars. There's a reason I am an evocation druid. The reason is that it used to be a very viable option. Our healing was "bad". Our nuking was very nice. I am happy about the improvements to our healing. It still doesn't hold a candle to the usefulness that clerics and shaman priests bring to a group, but I like it fine.

My image still of my druid is that she stands in the middle of the tempest, wielding the powers of nature, and deciding whether to heal or strike down, according to her mood. I want more of that flexibility back.

Rezzes, slows, new buffs...no thanks. I'll stick with what druids have always been to me.

Just my 2cp...

Quote:
Concussion/jolt spells would be overpowering for druids to have IMO. A hate reducer would be a huge thing to get. Huge. Can you imagine? We could heal AND chain nuke as long as mana held up. I really think that would be too overpowering.

I really don't think they are such panaceas that they allow you to suddenly and without concern do whatever you want. Were that the case, you would never see wizards get summoned (and I do all the time).

Several wizards I know say that Concussion is not material enough to be worth casting. While I don't agree with the assessment, it present it to illustrate that concussion (and similar spells) is not some sort of agro cure all. It is simply a resource that can be drawn on.

REmember taking the time to cast the spell is also eating into the time you need to be doing other things so it is not without its cost (in dps, or risk in terms of delayed healing). But for those raids where you need to recast one of our debuffs a few times...I would dearly love to be able to offset the compounding agro somehow.

I definitely concur on your image of the druid and what it has and should be. But...I do think there is a place (and a dire need) for SOME sort of agro control tool, either lowering the rate of agro (subtlety) or a tool to help you survive it at least a little better. None of them is perfect. But I would rather have a shovel with a broken handle than try to dig a trench with a plastic spoon.

To the mage above, as has already been said, you are really just being tediously negative. I didn't claim that all abilities were created equal, but you try to get by without subtelty and then come talking to me.

The point of my list was not to say I want any of those things specifically. It is purely to point out that we should have SOME resource.

We can run away. As can anyone in the game wiht a gate potion when you come right down to it. Sure isn't going to win lots of friends on a raid.

First few points i wana make:

Agro of Karana's Renewal and Natures infusion in Tier 3+ zones.

i wont lie, i Die ALOT during raids, not becuase i want too, But becuase of the insane agro these spells can drag off UBERMOB1, Infusion is the worst of them, Some times during fight even 2 min into it, i could cast a single infusion, Bam, iam getting slammed for 2k dmg a pop.

My suggestion Would be " turn the Damn Agro rate down"


Secondly, DD nukes.
i plucked down 12k for Summer's Flame Because it was the only viable Fire Based nuke in the upper Tier, moonfire Cant cut it that well in say Plane of Earth, And all we get is a lousy extra 300 Damage? not counting Winter's Frost which is 100 Damage more than Summer's Flame? come on, That's just Retarded, all were getting is the same nuke with a different Resistance modifier, Which i dont think is fair..


/rant off.

Could be that I overestimate. It would have to be tested with our spell set to know. My concern is more for overall balance than anything else. Unless you are proposiung to add subtlety or whatever to all casters including clerics, I don't see how we could reasonably get a general purpose agro reducer. I mean, the incidence of hernia operations would rise dramatically as EQ players of all the other classes would strain themselves voicing their displeasure.

Healing power.

Druids simply are not efficient enough to keep up with healing for my groups.

Here are my ideas on how to make them a little better.

The Druid CH (and shamans too) Since this really only heals about half the amount of hp I have when fully raid buffed. I think the casting times should be lowered to 8 or even 7 seconds (i am aware that some effects could further lower the casting time if so then so much the better).

Or perhaps a slightly better selectoin of healing spells at ALL levels (not some spells that have to quested from a new expansion either).

For example I have been playing my Paladin and Enchanter in GD , A guild druid level 48 ( I think might have been 47) asks if I want help I say sure. between healing and snaring he goes oom in within the first 3 mobs.

Now simply a more efficient heal would have helped out alot in the above example ( yes the druid had clarity up the all the time). A heal that would do about 450 points of healing with about a 4 second cast at level 39 for about 200 mana would be great i think. Make the Healing spell at 44 heal for 600 points, cost about 270 mana, and have a 4 second cast time.

The above views are me as both a Shadow Knight and a Cleric. None of the above would effect the grouping a cleric too much (unless the ch on a druid heal ended up with like a 2 second cast or so).

Also as a side note , 1 other thing that would help in the higher levels would be a larger mana pool ( this is for all classes that cast). I am not sure what point it is at but I know there is a point of less return for the of wisdom/Intellegence a person has. At this point if I am not mistaken you only get half the mana as before. This point of deminished returns needs to be taken out.

I hope some of you agree with what I have said here. Feel free to reply to it and let me know if you think my ideas have merit or not.

I wanted to post this, because I consider myself a fairly reasonable cleric. I'm not a druid hater, I don't wish you guys ill, and in one sense I sympathize with your situation. There's something a certain percentage of you want to do and you feel like you can't: group. In a similar vein, there's something a certain percentage of clerics wish they could do but can't: solo. I would argue that the barrier to druid grouping is somehwat different than the barrier to cleric soloing. Druids can group. They can group well. They bring a lot to a group. I LOVE having druids in my group. The problem is one of perception and space. For a cleric, the solo problem rests entirely on spell availability and gear. One is a game mechanic, one is a PR and design problem.

This has been beaten like a dead horse, but the reality remains. Without a doubt, in PoP people want a slower. A lot of times that's going to be a shaman, which means that many of the roles a druid fills are already covered. So then it comes down to "Do we want a cleric or do we want a druid?" I freely admit, the general EQ populous, having been preached to over the years that cleric healing is a necessity, is going to take the cleric first (all things being equal). So the druid is left in the cold.

I think this is where the frustration of clerics sets in though. You have a second option to LFG. It may be a tedious option. It may not be what you want to do. But the option remains. It is an option that doesn't require uber equipment, and you are relatively good at it. Not the best perhaps, but very good. It is not an option a cleric has. Yes, clerics can solo in extremely limited circumstances provided they have very good equipment and a lot of time on their hands. But that's not 95% of the cleric population. They see druids out quad kiting from the mid-30's on, and they get jealous. They wonder why they can't do that. They get bitter. THey quickly learn they HAVE to have groups to survive. And so when they see druids asking for more of their stuff, they lash out.

I admit, I read the original wish list and was both furious and amused. I understand you guys are tossing out ideas, and that in some cases they border on the extreme. The problem of course is that many people feel like this happens time and again with druids, and you guys inevitably get what you want. I wish I knew a way to make the problems all go away. I wish I could solo, and you could get groups. But at what, 4 years into the game, I just don't know that it's going to be radically altered without some serious spell changes. As was said before, EQ players ARE min-maxers. If druids were give some awe-inspiring spell, the general population would quickly catch on and you would be grouped in a heartbeat. The problem is of course tit for tat. Because now someone else is losing out, and it's quite likely someone who can't solo... me.

Anyway, not sure that this made any sense. Good luck. And may we both get what we want... though let's be honest, clerics won't :)

-Daeneb Wraithbane
Archon of ARo
Proud member of PRISM

Daeneb, great post.

In today's EQ, I personally feel that our ability to solo compensates for our second-tier Healer status. From what you wrote, it seems that is the commonly held Cleric view also, so we are in agreement.

The fear of many is that SOE has decided soloing is a bad thing. It's not just any one change, it is a trend. Looking forward, you can easily imagine an SOE dev saying "Well, why don't they just group?". Take note of Absor's question:
<em>
Many of you seem to think that a druid is a good addition to a PoP group. But you're saying that people don't want you in groups.

What is the reason that they don't want you?
</em>
The implication being that he doesn't see the Druid grouping issues that even Clerics percieve. If SOE doesn't percieve those issues, they may make changes that ignore them, i.e., forced grouping.

The original intent of the threads you see was to respond to the scenario "suppose soloing went away?". Back to your post, if the trend of the game continues to be anit-soloing, then you can see how we would be underbalanced without a solo option. Even if soloing is drastically discouraged, such that we solo as well as Shadowknights, then our solo/group balance has been thrown out of whack.

Hence the number of "how can we be more wanted by groups?" posts.

An important point to remember is that all this discussion is moot <em>if</em> soloing isn't further discouraged.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Because now someone else is losing out, and it's quite likely someone who can't solo... me.[/quote]

A lot of people who take issue with the ideas druids are coming up with time and again point out that we can solo. Yes, we can. However, do you know what the real source of this disquiet in the druid community is? It's that Sony keeps doing things to make soloing less and less viable. Druids wouldn't gripe so much about getting groups if they hadn't starting mucking around with our alternative to grouping. I'm sure you are aware of all this, but here's a brief history lesson for those who haven't been following along.

PoP was released, and we quickly learn that hunting grounds are limited but that there appear to be a fair number of things to hunt. Sony, however, saw some problems and decided to effectively limit the number of solo targets in PoP. I remember shortly after PoP was released that a lot of mobs in PoP were added to "immune to changes in run speed" list, strictly to discourage soloing (specifically kiting). The problem was kiting classes (not just druids) were kiting stuff like crazy, getting other people killed, etc. The immunity was supposed to fix that problem, but it also limited the number of targets for any class that relies on any form of root or snare to solo. Yup, the change limited quadding targets, but as with all nerfs, there was collateral damage to all soloing classes in the form of fewer targets in an already truncated expansion.

2) However, players adapt and charming came into vogue big-time. I know people who had never used charm in their life that turned to charming in PoP. Druids and frogs, necros in CoD, enchanters, well, nearly everywhere. :) Sony decided that the risk vs. reward ratio of charming is unbalanced, and charming to kill acquires an exp. penalty. Yet, druids and other "solo" classes kept on trucking, figuring that the 33% hit they would take from charming would beat getting no exp sitting on their butts LFG all day.

3) Now, after several months, Sony decides to nerf PoP ZEMs, clearly stating that groups should see a benefit while soloers will see a decrease in exp. All these nerfs add up to a point where, yes, we can solo, but we have to start evaluating whether or not it's really a viable means of grinding exp anymore.

4) The result: druids figure, "Well, Sony clearly wants to encourage us to group, but exp groups aren't crazy about us, so what can we do to become more desirable in groups?" We brainstorm, throwing ideas up for consideration, much to the amusement of the members of many other message boards, who would probably be better served trying to figure out ways to improve their classes than to sit around and making misinformed statements about what druids are asking for.

So, yes, we can solo, and while our ability to solo isn't being taken away, the viability of soloing for decent exp is steadily being eroded. If non-solo classes hadn't called for so many nerfs on soloers, many druids wouldn't be in the position of asking for increased group desirability.

In closing, although others have made a point of it, I'd also like to point out the split that exists in our community. Not all of us want your job. :) Half of us, according to a poll conducted here, are evocation druids and would likely prefer to have our DPS increased rather than to plunge further into the main healer role some of us really not fond of. I'm one of those druids. :) I like grouping with clerics, since it allows me to exercise my versatility, spot healing as necessary, doing some damage, etc. However, when looking for DPS these days, most people will pass over a druid due to our admittedly middle of the road DPS, so we don't get those slots in an exp grind group either. So druids like me are looking for ways to add DPS to the druid class without being overpowering and think that that's a more viable way to get into groups that to go further down the healing route. The result? The list from our brainstorming session looks like we, as a class, are asking for a lot more healing power AND the ability to dish out a lot more damage, when it's really just reflective of the split in our class.

Regards,

Aldane Aglond
Ayonae Ro

More stuff from the other thread.
-----------------------------

KatrishBattlevixen ST said:
I wanted to post here and give a clerics point of view on druids and grouping. Personally I would rather have a druid than that wizard or necro or that extra melee class in my group. Why? Because of the versatile roles the druid can play in a group.

We have a slower in group but its not a chanter ~ Need to ghetto mez that extra mob (root).

Our chanter just got agro from mob that mez has worn off of and cleric is in the middle of CH on tank ~ Need to heal the chanter before he dies.

I love the fact that druids can back up my healing and give DPS when the healing is not needed and when that SK/monk fails to FD because he thinks the group can take on those 5 mobs that are hitting for 500+ dmg that druid can get us the hell out of there before we all die and I have to rez everyone.

I don't understand why druids would or should have a problem getting groups. But I do think all classes have the same problem, some days are just worst than others. I have logged on and went LFG in BoT to see that druid being main healer in group with a shaman slowing. Druids are just under looked by other players.

One plus you have while LFG you can still go out and solo while my cleric butt sits there working on baking with LFG on and getting tells to come to LGuk to rez so and so.

This post was not meant to rant, was just to point out that not everyone thinks druids are encabable just the way they are. No need to take the class specific abilities from other classes, just work on what you already have and hope they don't nerf it :P ( I also played a mage to 63 and cried when they nerfed our mod rods )

Blah my sig is way outdated ~ didnt want you all to think a lvl 14 cleric was posting ~ Links on magelo is the right level
Baroness Candaray 61 Arch Mage
Sumneray Fatebringer 51 Pathfinder
Canda 14 Cleric
Tuvianu Nitengale 31 Druid

=====================================
Gaeaen said:
I've read all of the posts before my post here.

I think the inherent problem is druids are viewed as the jack of all trades kind of class, and people play them that way. I have a 64 Paladin and 63 Druid. I originally started my druid, because I had a tough time getting groups with my paladin in his 50s.

It's been hinted upon many, many times throughout these posts here, and I think tils said it best, that you need to look at the overall ramifications to what some of us are proposing.

We are also split in our ideas as a class, because the druid can take on many rolls, and many of us have specialized into one of them - such as group healer, group damage dealer, soloer etc.

The healers are opposed to increasing our DPS through better dots, better boo-boo etc., and the nukers are violently opposed to to increasing our healing capabilities and/or giving us a rez spell.

I do alot of soloing, grouping as the healer and grouping as a damage dealer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this discussion has started, due to the upcoming changes regarding solo exp / group exp.

As an example: when I group in Halls of Honor, I can get an AA point in roughly 90 minutes, give or take, getting a solid 2 percent of an AA point per kill. When I solo in Halls of Honor, I get typically 7-9 percent of an AA point per kill, but it actually takes me longer to get an AA solo than it does whilst grouping, unless I purchase a KEI/tranquility etc. It take me approximately 15 minutes per kill, counting the split on pull, root/dotting, and re-medding to full to grab another one. For some, this may be different, as my gear only gives Flowing Thought 6, added with potc/mask of the stalker. I don't have the mana pool, nor the mana regeneration, using the level 63 targetted AE spell to quad mob effeciently, and I'm sure most druids in my situation don't either.

You want to encourage grouping - and I think you've done a very nice job of doing that thus far. I WANT to group. I get faster, safer, FUNNER exp whilst grouping than I do solo. Why do I solo? Because I get better exp soloing, than I do sitting LFG in Bastion of Thunder for several hours.

This thread was posted so that we might view our opinions on why it is that we as druids feel we add something special to groups, yet we seem to be the last one to actually get a group.

I feel that currently the druid class, as it was designed, does its job well.

As I sit right now, on my other PC, LFG in Bastion of Thunder, I've looked back on the posts and ideas posted saying that I SHOULD be able to get a group faster now.

In this particular situation, most of the ideas would not allow me to get a group faster. Some of them might, however.

Ironically, I can get a group faster with my paladin these days than it takes me to get setup with my Druid in HoH.

I think most people that solo, who are 60+, realized that they enjoyed soloing. I don't, personally, see a reason to give the solo classes something that makes grouping more desirable, because they can choose to solo if they want to.

My 64 Paladin can't efficiently solo his way out of a wet paper bag these days. He doesn't have the option to solo. Druids have the option to solo, and always have.

I realize I didn't give you an explanation of why I feel I should get a group more easily than I have been. That's because I have the option to solo - most melee classes don't have that choice these days.

If you want to force me to group for reasonable, efficient experience, then I don't really see a difference between a druid or any other melee class these days. I've seen all classes sitting LFG for long periods of time. I don't personally think you need to look at the classes for improvements. I think you need to look at the areas in which we experience grind, and realize that we've gone back to the kunark era of "needing" certain classes to make our experience grinding efficient.

This post wasn't meant as a flame, and I sincerely hope no one took it that way. Just my viewpoint after reading 10 pages of posts

It's the same thing as it always has been.

We can't do anywhere near the damage that a magician or wizard.

We can't heal anywhere as well as a cleric.

We sure can't tank for more than a couple of hits. Although I have been caught tanking for the tanks a few times.

We have one thing that other classes don't...wolf form. People have hated wolf form for a long time.

I like being utility, don't misunderstand that. The main problem as I see it...is that people would rather sit around for an hour or two being hampered, instead of taking what is available.

Druids can fill pretty much 1 of 3 roles in a group well enough to be considered for those roles, but not well enough to be wanted for those roles. 1)healer 2) damage 3)puller

1) With the advent of PoP, druids were turned into a additional source of healers in the advent you could not find a cleric. So already we are number 2 choice of a forming group and as replacement for a existing grp. Do I wish our healing capabilities further increased by a higher hp cap? or more efficient spells? no. I would however think its reasonable to any druid who has put there AA's into bettering there alteration skills to be able to reap the reward for spending said AA's. Specifically Healing Gift I feel should be altered for not only druids, but shamans as well. Currently even if you have AA's into this skill, you can crit with any direct heal spell excluding the 2 big bombs. While I don't think this alone is going to add to our desirability in groups, every little bit helps and I personally feel if you've earned your AA's they should work just the same for you as any other class that gets that EXACT same AA. Healing Adept falls into this catagory as well. I personally don't like the way druids have become closer to there cleric brethren and would *personally* like our role as DPS to be looked into more than our healing capabilities.

2) When a group is looking for damage, druid isn't anywhere near the top of the list by any means. I know I personally can pump out some decent damage, and I would probably be able to do it consistantly exept I have no means of reducing my agro, so to continue to pummel any given creature inevitably leads to my demise or some serious patch healing. Since druids don't have the ability to reduce hate I'm not sure there this falls into the category of input you are looking for as this would be a *new* ability. However reducing the amount of hate generated by our damage spells may fall in the realm of fixing/modifying an existing ability. just a thought. Also if our direct damage spells were slightly more efficient it would make it easier for most druids to keep a constant dps as opposed to downtime while medding. I *personally* would think just being slightly more efficient dealing the damage we have been given would result in being slightly more desired to groups, but would rather see a hate issue addressed as this allows us to use what we already have. The only other way I can think of reasonably increasing our dps with direct damage spells is to increase the likelyhood of crit damage. Currenty even with Fury and Planar Fury maxed, crits are not anywhere near as common as our DD dealing counterparts are.

On the damage over time side, mobs just die to fast to make this even an option for increasing our dps in a decent to good grp. Swarming Death just barely might be considered adequate as the duration is fairly short, but even when I've used it mobs are still generally dead before it falls, and in the time it took me to cast it I could have added a nook for instant damage. Reducing the duration of the dot could help increase the damage we deal, but its not a good fix imho as now you are casting a lot more spells and are surely going to OOM if you try to keep high dps with dots only, not to mention you can only stack so many dots in any given time. Hate would be my choice still to be looked at.


3) Pulling I very much enjoy and it seems to be the role that the majority of people I've met would rather have druids doing if they are not primary healer. Druids have a nice lineup available for accomplishing this, but we've always been limited to the outdoor thing. I would really like to see Harmony of Nature useable indoors as well. We lost any chance we had of dungeon crawling to the pacify casting line of players.

I think perhaps part of the issue is our lives have changed since we started this game. For whatever reason many of us have a more limited playtime schedule, I know I do. I left eq for the summer last year at level 59 with 2 aa points P. At the time soloing a static pop set of mobs for several hundred hours to get 60 and a few aa points looked like a pointless waste of time. I had level 65 and 100 + aa in a few months of very casual POP xping. I log on now put up lfg and if its longer than 20 30 minutes I usally just camp out.AA points are imo the best and cheapest way to improve your ingame persona.
LFG for hours even while soloing can be the suck. Sony does not have every class in mind when they do an expansion some shine more than others. The min/maxing mindset is the bane of many classes not just druids. It has been since at least SOL maybe earlier. In the end we all want to maximize our playtime and game design does not allow that in EQ.
EQ is still an ongoing experiment in what does and does not work in an online adventure game. I suspect that the next generation of games will draw a lot from EQ.I still play eq its the best of the bad choices atm P. I will be much more discriminating in the next game I choose to play.

Safe travel good hunting all
Mykel
65 mage

I just want Spell Casting Sublety and i am fine.

I die on raids often, just because of healing agro.

And i have no way to escape.

I take the hits, hoping assist healers are able to heal me, before the mob ate my 5K hps. Since i am a druid, with like zero avoidance, i take almost every hit for full anyway.

I really want to know, why Bards get SCS, why almost every class get SCS, but Druids?

Agro is the problem i have most. I am fine with the nukes, with the heals. But the agro thing is pretty annoying. Clerics have atleast 3 * DA they can use, ignoring the fact they are a plateclass and have more hp's.

Tubben.

tanyenwoodelf said:
This is what I see,

In any PoP zone (Even Tier 1), it will be almost impossible for a pre-58 druid to be primary healer.

A lvl 57 or lower druid is regulated to DPS and emergency healer in a group. There are other classes that can do much better DPS (unless they get a pet but in most pickup groups this will never happen because you won't know that person) and can heal as well or add more value to the group.
(Slower, Haste, FD, Mana, DPS)

Lvl 58-62 Druid.
It is will be harder for a pickup group to choose a Druid without Nature's Infusion as primary healer even with a slower because they are worried if the heals are quick enough for PoP.

I do not think the I can match the sustained DPS of most classes (7 Melee Classes, 3 out of 4 Int Class, 1 out of 3 other Wis Class) that are desired in PoP because I do not have the best gear (SoL-UP Only Gear, Vel-Era Gear, NO POP gear).


-------
I won't be getting spectral spells or exp for AAxp or lvl from PoP unless I can get into groups.

I cannot get into groups because I don't have all my spells, AAxp, or levels, or gear so I can be chosen for a group. So I continue to solo along ever so slowly.

That is my Druid Catch-22.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Great, we can run away[/quote]
LOL! Well at least I got a laugh out of something associated with our class. Not really funny but oh so true. :mad: