View Full Forums : What makes a class "groupable"


sudawilde
06-06-2003, 04:55 PM
Ok, i have read all the posts that had anything to do this class balance lately(on this board). Every post, uggg... lol

What i really have not seen, and i might add, something that i think might clarify a druids roll in groups, is a discussion on what makes a class groupable and what makes a class not groupable.

Now i am not a DG mod, so i wont be able to edit your posts(darn ) but i think with your cooperation we could compile a list of items that can help us all gain a healthy respect of each of the class's, where we feel we are lacking, where we feel we are strong and anything in between. As it pertains to <strong>GROUPING</strong>.

<strong>PLEASE REMEMBER, BE NICE, HAVE A BIT OF FUN WITH IT AND BE AS HONEST AS YOU CAN.</strong>

And since i made the post i will start...

Druid
Grouping strengths
1. Reasonable back up heals when a main heal cleric is present
2. Main heals, tho not terribly efficient it can be done
3. Evac spells (tho i have only tried to evac one time in the last 6 months, and it didn't work.. lol)
4. Reasonable DPS(limited by generated agro)

Grouping weakness's
1. lack of group buffs that stack with other class's
2. lack of a unique group skill that separates druids from other class's
3. lack of some form of rezz (i don't want it, but it does limit our ability to get groups as a main healer)
4. lack of any form of noticeable Damage mitigation
5. lack of Exceptional group DPS

Now here is where i ask you for your help. i have only really played a Druid to the upper level of the game, so i really don't know the finer details of the other class's. Where their Group appeal comes from other than slow, mez, uber buffs, Power heals so on so forth.

So i ask you, be civil, remember that other post was made by a real living human, and give your ideas on what makes each class groupable or not.

/prays to Karana people don't get all class vs class

Thanks for you help

Belkram Marwolf
06-06-2003, 09:51 PM
Beastlords get groups because they can slow AND they push some hardcore DPS. Mana regen as well

Mages get groups because they are the best DPS around at high levels on average.

Monks get groups based upon splitting and upon DPS along with being able to somewhat handle the offense tossed out by mobs.

Shamans; haste, slow, buffs, DoTs, dog-dog

Bards; they push every group category further---haste cap, nuke increases, slow on pull, pull splitting, mes, charm, mana regen....very good class right now.

Necros; undead capabilities or straight out DPS

Rogues; DPS---traps are a non-issue for the most part as are doors for exp groups

Paladins---best agro tank right now with stuns and self heals to fill in gaps.

SKs---best DPS of the plate tanks holds agro very well

Warriors---hurting right now, agro generation is holding them back; taunt doesnt cut it in PoP as well as it did in previous expansions

Rangers---DPS, attack buffs, snare

Enchanters--CC, slow, haste, mana regen

Clerics---varied healing and most efficient heals

Druids---Im not going to mince words here...they dont have any ONE thing that makes them remarkable or stand out. They do many things very well and can be the glue that makes a so so group work very smoothly by filling in the parts that are missing. This isnt a strength that is easily perceived by players though, as many, many people in EQ are looking for the most exp in the smallest amount of time.

Oh well, my opinions, tear em up as you will.


Belkram Marrwolf

Qwin
06-06-2003, 10:19 PM
As a monk I can tell you that they are not that group friendly anymore, since the mitigation nerf, and the revamp of the lull types spells, we are not as sought after as we once where. Not quiet as bad as it is for druids to find groups, but still not on the top of the list, when looking for dps, or pullers.

Since the increase to the effectiveness of lull spells, most monks that are asked to pull, are only pulling because of there vast experience at doing the job. A lot of classes now have the tools to do the job faster, and easier then a monk can. Witch relegates a lot of monks to the dps job, with a lot of other classes doing that better then monks these days. Monks have been dropped down to around 4th or 5th best dps class.

Overies
06-06-2003, 10:51 PM
Once you have the holy trinity of Tank, Slower, and Healer all you have left to need for efficient killing is +DPS.

Druids just dont have that. Who needs a backup healer when the cleric can heal way more quickly and way more efficiently and with slow nearly never needs the help of a backup healer (which the shaman prolly in the group slowing can provide to an extent anyway)


We just .. don't have a role to play .. dont have a reason to be invited .. unless you cant find a cleric and we are the only other option (if the camp spot is even DOABLE with a druid healing) .. and any group with a druid healing, unless they have big mana regen and dont mess up on pulls / slows at all, is going to be at a disadvantage with more possibility for a wipeout (and then after wipeout no rez!)


Sure, some druids (mainly ones with exceptional mana regen) do very well .. but most don't. And mana regen (FT) is a huge component in this. The reason why druids are perceived as not a good invite is because well .. they really aren't unless you get one that is either exceptional at their skill, and can actually do a lot of things at once for the group that the group wouldnt normally do (**exceeding the requirement of the class) .. OR .. have FT15 .. (both would be best) .. and most if not all druids do not have this .. and therefore .. we are perceived as weak .. and a bad addition (because on average, we are)


That's just how I see it. If I wasn't a druid I wouldn't want to invite us either =P

KittenPawTZ
06-07-2003, 04:29 AM
So much negativity...

There is still the old argument that if you don't like druids or don't feel them being useful, play a class that is useful to you.

I love my druid, I started as a mage in my younger days, then cleric, and finally became (and stayed druid till 65) because of our versatility.

I can be healer, and except in raids, I can stand toe to toe with many average clerics (there are tons of them). Even on raids, I am the one that keeps the clerics alive, and sometimes even the MA if we don't have enough clerics logging in.

I can charm, I can quad, I can nuke, I can pull, I can gate/port around (still very useful in spite of PoK stones, which are a heresy and should be removed)... and I am excellent in tradeskilling !

Druids are fine as they are, the only thing I would like SoE to work on is our DS (and the mage one too), to make that spell actually useful again outside of PLing. Make it an exceptional spell vs an unslowed foe, and an average (to good) spell vs slowed foes.

ArienneDileas
06-07-2003, 05:55 AM
What makes a class groupable? Mostly in EQ it takes being the BEST at a particular skill that is needed to take down the mobs being hunted. Second best CAN work but typically that is a last resort addition and requires you to be able to do a lot of DPS. Particularly in PoP, the mobs have mega HPs and the more damage after the holy trinity, the better.

Tuppen FV
06-07-2003, 06:09 AM
I agree KittenPawTZ.

We are very effective, especially solo. I like the versatility that we have, and that we bring to groups.

However, as I said elsewhere, we really need something that we can bring to groups that is uniquely our own -- and that uniqueness needs to be useable only in groups. Otherwise, it will raise our solo capabilities even more, which is something that SoE seems unwilling to allow.

Frankly, it seems that many posters in the various threads here want to be playing clerics. If I want to heal effectively and rezz, I will play a cleric. I can't blame various clerics for being upset after reading some of the proposals that have been put forth.

Probably the best suggestions I have seen so far (and that don't step on other classes toes) are:

1) A new line of or an improved line of attack debuffs.
2) Improved damage shield (based on percentage sounds nice)
3) A fix to harmony/harmony of nature.
4) Faster DoT's. (Our current DoT's are great for solo, but in groups it isn't even worth the bother unless casting on boss-types).

Although these are GREAT ideas for grouping, some of these would be unbalancing if they worked in solo scenarios as well.

If we really want to be uniquely useful to groups, we need to be willing to accept that whatever gives us that capability should be non-functional for the soloing druid. Any of the above (with the possible excetion of the harmony fix) would make us too powerful as soloers.

And any changes implemented need to start affecting druids in their lower to mid-50's. Druids from 51-57 are in the worst shape, in my opinion.

Naathan Kaine
06-07-2003, 06:33 AM
Druids are a really good grouping class. I really dont know where you get all this self negative image from.

You get heals- If there is a slower, you can generally cover a groups worth of healing. Might be slower than a cleric, but is doable.

You get nukes- Druid DPS is not that bad in nuking dpt.

You get buffs- HP buffs that CAN stack with cleric buffs, just not with the aego/virtue line.

You have utility- snare, hamony pulling- emergency evac( you never know)

The problem I see is lack of motivation. Get your ass out there and MAKE the group, dont just sit around and wait for a invite. If you see a slower out there, grab them, tanks and whatever.

I Played a druid for a couple of years and still play friends druids now from time to time. Druids might not have everything, but you have a lot. Druids DO NOT need rezzes, I dont know why every year some jackass brings this issue up, bit there is always someone and the Dr00d crowd follows along on that short bus.

Druids are a great grouping class, just be better self promoters.

Sometimes I feel like this crowd is worse than the Monk WOE is ME crowd over at Monkly Business.

In the whole scheme of things, druids have it better than many others out there. Yes there are problems but druids are by far not the worst of them.

BTW- My biggest pet peeve is why the hell is boo boo so much damn mana to cast, followed by why the hell we need a component to turn off rains, stupid.

duranstorm
06-07-2003, 07:33 AM
i posted this in the other thread, but i will probalby get lost in the noise so i'll put it here.

There are tanks: War, Pal, SK

There are melee DPS: Rogue, ranger, monk (maybe behind, but they are still good damage), bst (+mana regen, slows)

There is caster dps: Wiz, mage, necro (again, maybe a bit behind the others, but still good)

There is Crowd control: Enc, sham

There is a jack of all trades: Bard (they really can do everything)

there are the healers: Cleric

i guess druids are supoosed to be somewhere...
Some would say jack of all trades, but we don't have anywhere near the range that bards do... great pulling, slows, mez, charm, mana regen, haste, overhaste, bigger nukes, atk, DSes, resists, and more

Some might say caster dps: but we don't have a pet to help (unless we can find something i charm, but that's not really an option alot of places), and our nukes are good, but not great and agro is always an issue.

Maybe we are healers, but we aren't anywhere near as good as clerics at handing stuff when it gets hairy... either with higher hps buffs, better and a greater range of heals, DA for agro, rez for deaths. Steady, single pulls of quickly slowed mobs hitting a tank we do fine.

basiclly we don't have a place... everyone else can fit pretty well, we only fit well when a group needs a half healer/half caster dps which doesn't happen all that much.

DS

Menlaiene
06-07-2003, 09:31 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Druids are a really good grouping class. I really dont know where you get all this self negative image from.[/quote]
It's called not being able to find groups. Duh.

Anyway, groups look to maximize their efficiency. They want two things: needed utility and DPS. I consider healing, buffing, debuffing all part of utility and DPS is just that. Druids suffer in DPS in two ways--mana regen and agro. When I have good mana regen, I can't nuke due to agro. We suffer in DPS because we have alot of utility. But the fact of the matter is, the utility we have is not needed/wanted. When the utility a low sustained dps class provides is not needed/wanted, the class is not invited to groups.

Sow has been given away to everyone. Evacs are not needed in pop zones. Harmony is now inferior to the cler/enc spell. Snare is not needed when mobs do not run or do not get far enough to cause adds. Our debuffs have no noticeable effect on exp mobs besides the FR part and the making mobs want to kick the crap out of us part. The mana regen from potg/9 is not sought out because every caster is perma-keied. Damage shields do very little on a slowed mob and are often not worth the buff slot. Our healing is a last resort to a cleric's. Clerics with PoP spells and AAs do not need backup healing. etc.

Profundox
06-07-2003, 11:11 AM
How do you know if you're useful in a group? I was wondering that myself with my 58 epic bard. So I did some parsing using EQ Companion during HoT raids. 3 groups plus change, averaged 20 people. My group was 4 melee, a cleric and me.
All numbers are from parsing, not calculation. And when I have to estimate, I'm extremely conservative.

Personal melee DPS with Speed of Vallon (chanter buff) - 25. I can do around 50 DPS with dots, but then I'm singing no group buffs.
Average DPS for other tanks - 58
Added DPS from 15% stacking haste - 58*.15*4 melee = 35
Added DPS from AE mana song for 4 nukers - 2 mana per sec * 4 nukers * 1.4 dmg per 1 mana = 12 DPS
Added heal from AE mana song for 7 healers = 2*7*6 hp per 1 mana = 84 hp healed per sec
Added heal from AE heal = 4 hp/sec * 20 in raid = 80 hp healed per sec
AE resist prevents roughly 200 hp dmg from dragon AE breath every 30? secs - 200/30*20 = 133 dmg prevented per sec

Grand total: 72 DPS and 297 dmg healed or prevented per sec. A 65 bard is going to be able to do roughly 1.5 times these numbers. Things to note - I made sure I was in an all melee group. It was a multi-group raid against AEing mobs. Mobs were too high for me to charm or mez. When I did try to affect mobs with songs, got ungodly resists. These were supremely optimal conditions for a bard. In that same raid the highest melee dmg was a rogue with 90 DPS, 2nd was pally with 65. I assume the wizzies sustained dmg was around 60-70.

Bards are good in raids. We knew that. Can you quantify what a druid adds to a group or raid? I'd be interested to see the results. I'd like to know if druids are as poorly off as warriors in what they add to a group.

Naathan Kaine
06-07-2003, 01:07 PM
First step in finding groups is having a friends network. If you solo all the time, you never meet anyone and since noone knows you, they wont think any more or less of you than joe otherclassoverthere.

Druids had this problem before, a good number of the people that made the druid used it solely for solo abilities and thats all they did, and when they went out trying to find a group, they found nothing because all the could think of the class was "Its just nother of them quadding dr00ds who trains me". Those who do nothing but solo are @#%$ with groups cause they dont know how to handle situations that makes you have to be aware of other people outside yourself.

Druids do have the same place the other classes have in filling out that group. After you get your cleric and slower and CC depending where you are, you can fill either the puller slot, the dps w/backup healer role, even backup CC with roots. The only limiting factor here is how you perceive yourself, druids have a ton of tools.

Let me give you a little story about me playing my 56 druid. Mind you, he doesnt even have the good heals yet or the great hp buffs, his hps are the suck with somewhere around 1800's.

While I was camping my VT shard in the deep I logged off my rogue and logged on my druid for the camp. We were across the invisible bridge and just pulling the shard mobs that are on the way to THO right at first tunnel (their name escapes me). While doing this camp with a shaman, some so so dps classes and no enchanter, I was the lowest class in the group, with everyone else being 60.

What was my role? I pulled all the mobs, I rooted for crowd control and backup healed the shammy or some tanks. I kept about 2-3 mobs CC'd/w root depending on how crappy my pulling was and I did not die once the whole time we were there. I had some very close calls, but because I know how to play my class I was able to do all of that without breaking a sweat.

Now here I read about a bunch of people who have better spells than I did, better gear, bigger mana pool and you can honestly sit here and tell me you suck?

The only thing that stinks here is your skill if you cant use all the skills your class has to its best advantage. The class does not suck, its the player behind it.

Druids have some strange issues due to the fact that the class is a jack of all trades and is hard to balance them, but Druids are a damn solid class and if you cant see that you should be ashamed of yourself.

sudawilde
06-07-2003, 01:22 PM
Naathan,

This is the only time i am going to acknowledge your trolling ok.....


Stop, look back at the beguining of this thread and reread what i wrote plz, i asked you to come along and post what your class offers groups(you are a rogue). there is not one single self respecting druid here that wants advice from a rogue on how to play our class, You talk like you know anything about what it is we have been stressing here. if one person says it, maybe its not true, when you have a whole community saying it maybe there is something there?

stop trying to derail every thread that might threaten one of the 2 or 3 group spots that rogues at present dont have to share with druids, but someday might have to.

As for the rest of you that come here and say "I am not sure where all the negative ideas come from" or "look at all the whiners" ect ect ect......

STOP, i asked for ideas on YOUR class

Naathan Kaine
06-07-2003, 04:42 PM
I started playing a druid in 99, played the class for 3 years. I know the class just as well as I know the Rogue class. I did not bring up rogue concerns here anywhere on this thread.

Try that troll crap with someone else.

Delowen
06-07-2003, 05:44 PM
Naathan, You are in the 50s Most the ppl that are posting probably are in the 60-65 range. Yes we have better gear and larger mana pools and all that but you dont understand what its like for a druid in PoP zones. Now I Know how to play my class Very well and My grouping abilities are great. I feel as most druids do that we are a great class to group with because of our versatility(sp) but that isnt enough for everyone else.

Druids in PoP zones just dont offer enough to most groups to take up a spot in most ppls eyes. Sure we can heal and Buff and Nuke but its all limited. A group will always take the class that is best at one of those abilities (cleric,shaman,wizard/mage) if they are around.

Our pulling abilities arnt great in PoP zones because most will just take a cleric/enchanter to pull with pacification. A cleric or enchanter will easily take the place at pulling in PoP zones with Pacification because its indoor/outdoor and our harmony of Nature is outdoor only.

Harmony of Nature

Slot Description
1: Frenzy Radius(15/65)
2: Reaction Radius(15/65)

Pacification

Slot Description
1: Frenzy Radius(1/65)
2: Reaction Radius(1/65)
3: Pacify


Druids Need some kind of class only ability that others would be like hey its a druid lets get him for XXX.


www.magelo.com/eq_view_pr...num=381960 (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=381960)

brum15
06-07-2003, 06:28 PM
I agree with what Tuppen said but would add

1. Spell casting subtlety. Would not help in soloing one iota-cause you are still the only one aggroed on. Would help in groups so you could cast nukes without worrying about healing later and getting aggro. you are after all a nuker unlike us and shammys. You should be able to get this AA

2. DA for druids. Maybe not DB also but at least DA. Nature wraps a protective cocoon around you for 12 seconds.

3. A lesser hp buff with component cost. Not as good as a clerics and not as expensive of a component but something to add more to tanks hps--no mana regen or other adds but hps though. Total on this and POT? should be a little less than total on our ac/ac+hp/symbol combo.

4. AA and focus effects to work on all your healing. This would hurt nobody. Noone is going to pick you because "oh wow you might get a crit healing" but the mana saved and the occasional impressive numbers people see will help (even if most of the crit heal is wasted people would see the number) you need something showy so people will notice. Ever notice how the person at work who does the least work but brags the loudest often gets promotions? Being flashy even without doing anything great helps. As a druid you may already do a lot but it is not showy enough for the group to notice. ie wizard nukes for 2.5K. Cleric heals for 5K. Druid heals for 3K and nukes for 1.4K. Everyone is "wow check out the wizard nuke and great heal cleric" you have contributed as much but neither number is as big. Maybe the AA and focus flash bang will draw attention to what you can do.

As for what I bring to groups?

1. Healing - I have the best healing. Others can do it and maybe should be able to a little better than they do. But because I specialize and have no soloing or good nuke/dots, I am hands down the best healer.


2. buffing - I usually stack my Khazad with druids POT? if druid is available. Otherwise I do the buffs. I myself will take POT? if available. If my tanks are letting me get hit enough to make the extra hps matter over the mana regen I will get other tanks. and please cast those resist buffs on me. 9 times out of 10 when I take damage it is in the effect of spells from an add.

3. Rezzing. Hopefully never. But it is available.

4. DPS. my dps is a laugh but with reverse damage shield it does contribute. unfortunately it has to be recast on every mob and when they die fast and are slowed is really not efficient. Pet has to be recast every mob, therefore taking up a spell slot so is usually unmemmed-also not mana efficient at one cast per every mob. Hammer line-was great before nerfed but now sitting and casting my nukes=even though they are only magic based with the least damage of any casters and long recast times-yields as much damage. Plus I dont have everyone and their mother in the group yelling at me for meleeing instead of remembering my place in group-healing.

Divina
06-07-2003, 07:22 PM
Delowen

You do understand that you are comparing a level 29 that costs 100 mana and casts in 2.5 secs, to a level 62/65 spell that costs 350 mana and casts in 4.5 secs.

Might want to ask for an upgrade 60+.

sudawilde
06-07-2003, 07:39 PM
Naathan

the first 3 years of the druid has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with the last 6 months or so of a druids life. Your comments are nothing but an attempted troll, or a completely misinformed judgement. I will happily say i am sorry for misjudging you if you will admidt you really dont understand 60+ druid in PoP.

As for my other comments in my earlier thread, please... detail what a rogue offers to a group in your best, most honest estimation, that was what i was asking for anyhow.

duranstorm
06-07-2003, 08:45 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
What was my role? I pulled all the mobs, I rooted for crowd control and backup healed the shammy or some tanks. I kept about 2-3 mobs CC'd/w root depending on how crappy my pulling was and I did not die once the whole time we were there. I had some very close calls, but because I know how to play my class I was able to do all of that without breaking a sweat.[/quote]

mostly, we are talking about PoP... i agree that in kunark, velious, and luclin druids are great... in another thread i outlined what i used to bring to a group and how that has changed in PoP.

Have i done this in PoP? yes... i'm root CC in BoT alot, while back up healing... druids do make great pullers in PoP with alot of outdoor zones and harmony. i KNOW i can do all that... and i do it all the time with friends. but when it comes down to it, it's alot more dangerous for me to do it then to have an enchanter do it... it's alot more dangerous for me to main heal then a cleric... and most people that don't know me will just wait for someone that is less dangerous.

do i get groups? yeah... do i fight at the best of my ability, yeah... if the situation is easy to control and not pushing the limits can i take over for a specialist? yeah... is it still more dangerous? yeah will there be more down time? yeah... will the group be better off with a specialist? yeah...

DS

Demasia
06-07-2003, 10:14 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The problem I see is lack of motivation. Get your ass out there and MAKE the group, dont just sit around and wait for a invite. If you see a slower out there, grab them, tanks and whatever.

I Played a druid for a couple of years and still play friends druids now from time to time. Druids might not have everything, but you have a lot. Druids DO NOT need rezzes, I dont know why every year some jackass brings this issue up, bit there is always someone and the Dr00d crowd follows along on that short bus.---Naathan Kaine (former druid extraordinaire and level 65 Rogue)[/quote]

Gee, that is really swell advice. Your first hand knowledge from your cousin's step-brother's mother-in-law's sister of how it is to be a druid in PoP is enlightening. And, I am inspired to one day quit my druid like you and play another class because druids are so awesome instead of being a "jackass" "Dr00d".

Thanks for trolling! Bye now. Buh bye.

Reidwen
06-08-2003, 12:23 AM
-Buff stacking makes you groupable.

-Raw damage makes you groupable.

-Healing or the prevention of damage makes you groupable.

-Crowd control makes you groupable.

-Enhancing the main contribution of a specialist makes you groupable.

Being able to do one of those makes you a specialist.

Being able to do all those ( around half as well as the template class ) makes you a bard. A real jack of all trades.

Doing about half of them ( while taking agro every specialist has a way to avoid ) makes you a druid.

With the stronger healing, and the strengthened damage dealing we provide some value there. Buffing, forget about it, one nice mana buff that is almost always overwritten by some premature Virtue'r. We all know resists are only worth wearing maybe half the time in xp groups.

We have gaps in types of healing and agro mitigation, which is a double wammy. We are hampered by the limitations of the spells, spell selection, and lack of mission critical AA for the healer or damage dealer role. If we are supposed to be the wizard/cleric stepchild It would be nice to be able to bring those abilities to the group and only be hamstrung by the limits of the spell selection. Right now we're hovering around 2/3 a wizard, and half a cleric. Which isnt a bad thing, if I could DO both jobs and not draw some nasty right down my neck. As it stands now you have to be very cautious about switching from one job to the other, or its 'you shall not evade me 001'. If I cant effectively employ my full range of abilites, then all the group is getting is half a cleric, and a partial wizard.

Only people desperate for groups are going to jump on that.

Reidwen
06-08-2003, 12:26 AM
Gets half a cleric OR a partial wizard. Typing at 4 am is not good for sentance structure.

TeriMoon
06-08-2003, 02:48 AM
We are not half wizard/half cleric, we are not stpe-children of these classes. We are not a hybrid class. We are something unique.

Firemynd
06-08-2003, 09:22 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>We are not half wizard/half cleric, we are not stpe-children of these classes. We are not a hybrid class. We are something unique. [/quote]

In theory, you're right ... the druid is a PURE caster, one of three non-hybrid priest classes in the game.

But in practice, Verant/Sony has evolved the druid into the worst possible hybrid for grouping: a class whose strength is a combination of lesser abilities, but which relies upon having specialists present so that we aren't forced into one role or the other.

Ironically, when specialists are present, Druid is the last class most players would think of adding to the group. They tend to consider druids only when they're lacking a specialist for the essential healing role, which they are about as likely to do as inviting a rogue to serve as the group's tank.

- Groups looking for a primary healer will not choose a druid because the class is far less equipped to handle the set of tasks expected of a primary healer in this game. We have no group heal spells, no heal-over-time spells to mitigate heal aggro, no way to shield ourselves when we do gain too much heal aggro, and no viable way to alleviate the downtime incurred by a single death.

- Groups looking for DPS will not choose a druid because our DD spells are perceived as far behind INT nukers, our DoTs are aren't efficient for short fights, and neither are as efficient as the sustained DPS of non-tank meleers. The DPS we <em>could have</em> brought to a group via charmed animals, which already carried additional risk, is no longer an option at all because of the substantial exp penalty incurred; and DC pets are rarely an option because animals low level enough to dire charm are scarce to non-existant in the places we hunt for exp.

- Groups looking for a combination of healing and DPS ... ahh yes, they would certainly choose a druid. The unfortunate fact is that there is rarely a situation where a secondary healer would be preferred over additional specialists in DPS.

For many of us, the ability to solo has been somewhat of a consolation prize which has served to offset EQ's trend of alienating generalist classes from groups. By implementing an exp nerf which targets soloers in the only zones they can make any significant progression, Sony is killing one of the few remaining incentives a high level druid has to continue playing this game..

~Firemynd

FyyrLuStorm
06-08-2003, 10:05 AM
"We are something unique."

I think all Druids here will agree.

But it is good to see what the perception of us is from other classes.

"Half a cleric and partial wizzy" might give us an idea of what is wrong with us, why we are so-called group unfriendly.

Gianae
06-08-2003, 11:40 AM
I dont understand why ppl arent happy to take a druid in a plains group. Since POP Ive struggled to get into groups.

I suppose because we run out of mana trying to keep the tanks healed, this isnt my problem having a 3500 mana pool and KEI. Some of the problem is the gear these tanks are wearing, talk about mana suckers, put some AC on your backs, while youre at it hold agro plz ty. :p trust me the cleric isnt thrilled with it either. /duck

I think we have decent dmg, my new rain spell hits for 2550.

25 tick regen works.

got CHing mobs? we can stun or root to interupt.

And if we manage our mana we can MH.

over all I dont think the druid really needs anything...cept a little understanding ;)
and a group! RAWR!

Overies
06-08-2003, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I dont understand why ppl arent happy to take a druid in a plains group. Since POP Ive struggled to get into groups.[/quote]

There really is a reason lemme show u.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I suppose because we run out of mana trying to keep the tanks healed, this isnt my problem having a 3500 mana pool and KEI. Some of the problem is the gear these tanks are wearing, talk about mana suckers, put some AC on your backs, while youre at it hold agro plz ty. trust me the cleric isnt thrilled with it either. /duck[/quote]

This is one problem yes, the second problem with this is if too many are pulled and slow isnt applied right away we can't handle it nearly as well as a cleric, and theres more of a possibility for death in the group (and we can't rez when that happens).

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I think we have decent dmg, my new rain spell hits for 2550.[/quote]

Take a look at rogue DPS, or wizard DPS, or mage DPS, or hell, ANY class you would add in the last 3 slots after tank / slower / cleric. We do not have decent DMG unless were added to the group with a dire charmed pet, or dont mind (and the group doesnt mind) hauling along a regular charmed pet.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>25 tick regen works.[/quote]

i dont have it =\

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>got CHing mobs? we can stun or root to interupt.[/quote]

The cleric can do a MUCH better job at this than we can, but there are hardly any CH mobs to begin with anymore anyway. (i dont see how root helps this but /shrug)

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And if we manage our mana we can MH.[/quote]

yes but groups would most probably rather wait on a cleric than take us because A: if something unexpected happens like a bad pull the cleric would be much better to handle it than the druid resulting in much less of a chance for a death in the group and B: when that death does happen the cleric can just rez them and no need to wait to continue fighting.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>over all I dont think the druid really needs anything...cept a little understanding
and a group! RAWR![/quote]

Unfortunately we do need something, what that is? I'm afraid it will either have to be somewhere on the end of making us more priestly, or making us more wizardly (or giving us a radical new ability which I think sony isn't ready to do)

Druids dont get groups for this simple reason:

A group needs 3 roles, Tank, Healer, Slower.

The other 3 roles are up to the group, but in order to maximize EXP, they will be DPS.

We can NOT fit into Tank or Slower .. So lets look at the other 2 possibilities, Healer and DPS.

As a healer, clerics get MUCH better quick heals than we do, a MUCH better CH, MUCH better buffs, and can rez any fallen comerade right away so the group can get back to pulling. They not only mean faster pulling with less downtime, but they also mean the difference between a possible wipeout, and safety, and even if a wipeout happens, they mean quick recovery.

As DPS, we are WAY behind. There are **PLENTY of Rogues, Monks, Beastlords, Wizards, Mages, (even NECROS), and forgive me if ive forgotten any .. but Druids just come in LAST PLACE for all the classes that can add DPS to the group.


The only reason to add us is (except for the reason if the group doesnt have a cleric and cant find one at all) as a backup healer / evaccr. In all the PoP zones ive seen who needs an evaccr? And furthermore, who needs a backup healer when the cleric has such great quick healing abilities?

We aren't desired because we really aren't a good addition. If we are to be a good addition then sony needs to do one of three possible things.

A: Increase our healing ability. Make it seen that the healer slot of the group can be filled by TWO classes by giving us better quick heals and more mana efficient healing. (AND/OR better buffing, a group with 1k more HP each = way easier to heal)

B: Increase our damage ability. Make it seen that we do a lot of damage in the group. Make our crits up to par with a wizards. Make more dire charmable mobs in a given zone and reduce the recast on dire charm. Maybe giving us a summonable pet better than ol`booboo over here.

C: Give us a unique ability that makes a group desire us. Personally I don't see this happening. Unique abilities take a lot of testing and changes in gameplay. Up until now EQ has remained pretty solid in the grouping structure of what is needed (Tank, Healer, Slower, *Mezzer) What happens when you add something new to the mix like "Dmg Mitigator" or "DSer". I don't know. Sony doesn't know. This is why it probably won't happen. But who knows. We'll see.



I am a druid, Been one since beta 4. But lets say I was a warrior and was looking to add people to my group. Druid unfortunately would be just about my last choice...

Ellzii
06-08-2003, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I Played a druid for a couple of years and still play friends druids now from time to time. Druids might not have everything, but you have a lot. Druids DO NOT need rezzes, I dont know why every year some jackass brings this issue up, bit there is always someone and the Dr00d crowd follows along on that short bus.<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>

Ok I'm insulted, for your information I am the "jackass" that brought it up this year. Since you wish to paint me in such a wonderful context. I mostly grouped from level 5 on. I have been playing a Druid for the past 3+ years almost exclusively, and I do like my class, however, I think it's time for us to stop being doormats for clerics. Oh, and in case you are wondering, I did not ride the short bus to school.

Now, to the point of the thread, SOE is changing the rules to make it more difficult to solo. One of the Druids strengths is generally accepted to be soloing. One of the things that leaves us at the zoneline 5-10 hours a day is the lack of rez because mistakes happen no matter how good your healler puller or tank is. I honestly believe people look for clerics in a group for that feeling of security in knowing hey even if a mistake happens the fallout will not be so bad because we can [/quote][/quote]

Gianae
06-08-2003, 02:25 PM
Well Overon,
It didnt take you long to yank apart my post.

youre a lvl 63 ...druid since beta 4 but you havent gotten a lvl 61 regen yet? omg go get that :)


Why do you figure a cleric can do a MUCH better job interupting a CHing mob? an interupt is an interupt no matter the means. Id say the faster the cast the more likely the interupt. I consider NPCs as PCs, If theyre casting a spell and you hit them theres a <span style="text-decoration:underline">chance</span> to interupt thier cast...thats where root <span style="text-decoration:underline">could</span> come in, its a fast cast, chain root at the mobs 25% hp... is a good chance to interupt that CH. same with Stun or even melee hit <span style="text-decoration:underline">could</span> interupt. This is my theory.
POD has spiders that CH btw.



about dmg, you frown on the druid lvl 61 rain dmg for 2550?

heres the wizards lvl 61 spells... eq.crgaming.com/spells/spells.asp?Class=Wizard&Type=All&Level=61 (http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spells.asp?Class=Wizard&Type=All&Level=61)

I do believe we match up.


why compare melee with us? they're no good without a healer as we're no good without them. we all compliment eachother.


druid is a well rounded character, we can fullfill many needs within a group.

I however must agree that our lil green 'BooBoo' as cute as he is, is a joke.


dont be so down on yourself...as being a drood.



and note that a good druid on a good day is better than a bad cleric on a bad day....oh, but they can rez :mad:


and did you know...

If a mob resists your high lvl snare, cast your lvl one snare, it has a better chance of sticking.
;)

Bombudil
06-08-2003, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why do you figure a cleric can do a MUCH better job interupting a CHing mob? an interupt is an interupt no matter the means. Id say the faster the cast the more likely the interupt. I consider NPCs as PCs, If theyre casting a spell and you hit them theres a chance to interupt thier cast...thats where root could come in, its a fast cast, chain root at the mobs 25% hp... is a good chance to interupt that CH. same with Stun or even melee hit could interupt. This is my theory.[/quote]

Root does not interrupt (actually, in some situations it will do the opposite. Interrupts happen when mobs are displaced (or stunned). Rooting a mob prevents displacement, and hence interrupt).

Stun does interrupt.

Cleric's can stun better than druids.

Hence clerics are better at interrupting casters than druids.

Edit:
As a warning - do NOT ever get in the habit of chain casting root on a mob low on life.
I will give you some keywords: Root-based-aggro, enrage, rogues (or other melee thinking they are safe hitting from behind).

FyyrLuStorm
06-08-2003, 02:46 PM
"It didnt take you long to yank apart my post."

I suspect someone will tear into that one too. For whomever does, please do so nicely.

Gianae
06-08-2003, 03:00 PM
a stun is a stun, an interrupt is an interrupt. whos to say one is better? if its successful its just that.
I do believe in trial and error. I HAVE interrupted CHs.
As far as the chain roots go, as I said its a theory. I havent had many situations needing this in grouping but Certainly every case depends on the individual classes playing and the situation at hand. it was just an example...so I gather a poor one by your oppinion.

I didnt think Id actually have to 'think' of druid play strategies in this post, its a post about class worth for grouping.

I stand by my original intent, that being to say the Druid IS a worthy class to add to a group.

next time Ill be less specific.

/moon

Firemynd
06-08-2003, 05:03 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>about dmg, you frown on the druid lvl 61 rain dmg for 2550? heres the wizards lvl 61 spells... eq.crgaming.com/spells/spells.asp?Class=Wizard&Type=All&Level=61

I do believe we match up.[/quote]

It's naive to base any comparison between the DPS of wizards and druids upon one spell line, especially when AE rain lines aren't the primary DPS tool of either class except for strictly AE groups - in which case rains aren't appropriate anyway because they can only affect a few mobs at a time.

Factor in the rate at which mobs resist some are all of the three rain waves without debuffing, and rains just aren't efficient for the shorter fights one finds in regular groups.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>why compare melee with us? they're no good without a healer as we're no good without them. we all compliment eachother.[/quote]

It's perfectly logical to compare damage output of meleers and casters when examining desirability of their classes for those coveted three leftover spots in a typical group - after the first three roles are filled. In cases where druids are not chosen to fill the healing role, and cannot possibly serve in the tanking or slowing roles, we're left to compete with other classes for the DPS slots.

Then in another post you said:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I stand by my original intent, that being to say the Druid IS a worthy class to add to a group.[/quote]

That's your opinion. Unfortunately, the entire population of druids in EQ doesn't get groups based on your opinion.

Fact is, druids are simply not as good as specialist classes in groups, unless the group happens to need a secondary healer. That need doesn't occur very often in high level exp groups, and if a shaman is there for slows, he/she can easily fill in as secondary healer.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>and did you know...

If a mob resists your high lvl snare, cast your lvl one snare, it has a better chance of sticking.[/quote]

That isn't true. Neither spell has resist modifier, both are based on magic resistance of the target, and both fall into the same debuff slot. The only thing that factors into snare resists is the level difference between the caster and the target. If Ensnare is resisted, trying again will have the same chance of it landing as Snare would have. There's no reason to keep both of them memorized.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I didnt think Id actually have to 'think' of druid play strategies in this post, its a post about class worth for grouping.[/quote]

Druids perform well in groups assuming they're invited in the first place, but that isn't the same as being an optimal choice. A group with a druid in one of its three DPS spots isn't going to kill mobs as quickly or efficiently as an otherwise identical group with a rogue/wizard/monk/ranger in place of that druid. A group with a druid as main healer isn't going to be as efficient as a group with cleric as main healer because there will be more downtime.

I'm assuming you group with friends or guildies a lot, and therefore don't have to rely upon pickup groups very often. If they're not aiming for maximum efficiency as most players do, fine, but that isn't pertinent to why druids aren't as "groupable" as other classes, which is the topic here.

~Firemynd

Adrihaen
06-08-2003, 07:10 PM
Okay, new guy here. I hope no one takes a swing at me too hard :) Been some interesting reading lately but these recent discussions actually made me want to register to reply. There is not one thing wrong with druids, in my opinion, except we don't bring anything special to a group that another class doesn't already do better. That's the problem and we're not going to fix it by taking something from other classes so we'll have more we don't do as well as others.

Look at those that are desired in a group and examine why. They all bring something that is essential to the group. What would a druid bring? Nothing special currently. Like bards, we're jacks of all trades and nothing special (notice how bards have taken being nothing special to being pretty special?). So instead looking for ways to making ourselves better at doing nothing special, why not give us the ability to enchance everyone else? Something quite similiar to bards but not replacing them either. Granted, its not going to help us replace another class but it might make us useful enough that all the other classes will see THEIR abilities increase because of a druid's presence and learn to like it enough that druids become a sought after class for groups. That's where druids are hurting. We want in groups but we're not bringing anything special to the group they couldn't get elsewhere and better. Don't change that. Instead, have a druid make all classes better at what they do. Our abilities don't change. We just happen to also be able to increase the natural ability of others when grouped.

Gianae
06-08-2003, 10:27 PM
well, you ppl just slice and dice.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Okay, new guy here. I hope no one takes a swing at me too hard[/quote]pretty bad when someone comes in with a cower. :mad:

I made a mistake thinking outloud and blindly typing it here.
I dont always type the same as I play.

fact is some of the things that were replied here I disagree with.
You speak so surely there's no telling you any different.
you are the best druids, we can leave it at that.


I'll tell you the real reason druids dont get groups, my mother told me...some druids are just snobs.


Myself......I just think you all complain too much about your class.

/game on

oh and message boards are teh devil.

Bombudil
06-09-2003, 12:19 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>a stun is a stun, an interrupt is an interrupt. whos to say one is better? if its successful its just that.
I do believe in trial and error. I HAVE interrupted CHs.[/quote]

Not with root you havent. Stop claiming that, it detracts from your credibility.

Root does THE OPPOSITE of interrupting a cast.

TeriMoon
06-09-2003, 02:25 AM
Druids are group friendly. Druids are a good soloing class. Druids get a very nice combination of some quite desireable spells. The fact remains that many players are hesitant about adding us to groups these days. It has always been a lurking problem, but it has gotten worse with PoP. In many instances in previous expansions, a backup healer and or evacer was a good thing. Fights were longer, there were no graveyards, there were dungeons. Now, you would think that PoP zones being mainly outdoors would have brought great new opportunities for druids to group up and use our awesome utility spells to make grouping a snap. But, as we can all see, those utility spells are not so useful anymore, and they don't compare to the loss of DPS and/or downtime when someone dies that you get with druids in a group. Mana regen is high, mobs die fast, clerics have all sorts of heal spells, so backup healing really isn't needed.

We keep saying the same things over and over.

I don't think that anyone who reads these boards regularly and plays a druid as their main would disagree that we have plenty of things to recommend us. If we didn't enjoy the class, we wouldn't be playing it. But, lets be honest. How many if us have tried to build groups, only to have people leave when they discover that there is no rez in the party? How many of us have had difficulty finding a slower when we are trying to build groups? ENchanters don't want to group with us because we lack a fast heal which can save their lives when they get resists. Shaman often dont' want to because then they will have to back up heal in addition to their regular duties. Many clerics get offended when I watch party health and throw in a NI if I think maybe CH won't land quite in time. This is the reality I know in PoP. Is my server so different from others?

Keryia Winterwolf
06-09-2003, 05:12 AM
Actually interestingly enough here is what I get told by a lot of players.

I'm a evocation druid

Wizards tell me it's time to switch to alteration so I can be useful in a group.

Clerics tell me to keep nuking so that I stay useful to the group and not to switch back to alteration.

All the talk on the boards has made me think about these comments I get from wizards and clerics.....neither wants me to do their job, both perceive me to be better at the other....so what does that say about druids??

Keryia

Overies
06-09-2003, 05:15 AM
I'd just like to point out that I have my lvl 61 regen. And have had it since I got PoP.

I don't know where you got that from.


/hugs


and yes

our rain spell is *highly resisted. i rarely if ever use it. Not to mention the damage is slower anyway, you could do damage more quickly by just chain nuking...

Fhylden
06-09-2003, 05:18 AM
Root prevents you from moving, but it doesn't prevent you from being moved by an external force. I know I have been moved all over the place on the occasions when a mob roots me. I can't imagine how a root could actually induce an interrupt though, even the damage ones that druids get.

Overies
06-09-2003, 05:19 AM
trying to cast some dmg spell to interrupt a mob is not going to help unless it has a stun component or a knockback component

you might as well just go into melee and hit it with your weapon rather than cast on it

Gianae
06-09-2003, 05:25 AM
I would have edited my <span style="text-decoration:underline">original</span> post but ppl here are so damn quote happy why bother.


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>a stun is a stun, an interrupt is an interrupt. whos to say one is better? if its successful its just that.

Not with root you havent. Stop claiming that, it detracts from your credibility.[/quote]

where in that sentence did you see root, I see stun. you missed the rest of that paragraph.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As far as the chain roots go, as I said its a theory.

it was just an example...so I gather a poor one by your oppinion.[/quote]

The horse is dead ya can stop beating it.

Bombudil if youre gonna sit on a high horse at least put your reading glasses on.


allow me to finish this with the last of that post you didnt read:


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I didnt think Id actually have to 'think' of druid play strategies in this post, its a post about class worth for grouping.

I stand by my original intent, that being to say the Druid IS a worthy class to add to a group.

next time Ill be less specific.
[/quote]


Funny, all I was trying to do was give druids some confidence in thier class. a little pep talk. ok so I should have left the freakin root part out (not like I even use this tactic) I was blindly typing. Because my only concern was my intent.

so sad

Vermilion Starfires
06-09-2003, 05:44 AM
If someone is relying on class abilities to get groups at this stage of EQ the problem is with them, not their class. People get groups these days based on WHO they are, not what class they play. A well played druid is better than a poor or mediocre cleric any day of the week. A druid people know they can trust is better than a cleric that is only out for themself.

The kind of person you are and the kind of player you are is more important that they class you picked. If you have failed to make social contacts or have a rep as being anti-social you're gonna have problems, regardless of your class.

All that said, i'll say this again. I prefer druids as my main healer in Exp groups, they bring alot more to the group than a cleric does. Rez is not a concern, I can cast a 90% rez myself and the other 6% of lost exp is gained back in 2 or 3 Tier 2 kills.

Bombudil
06-09-2003, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Funny, all I was trying to do was give druids some confidence in thier class. a little pep talk. ok so I should have left the freakin root part out (not like I even use this tactic) I was blindly typing. Because my only concern was my intent. so sad[/quote]

Sad indeed.

You know why?

Because the example you provided to "give druids some confidence in thier class" would actually ENDANGER a group.

Typing with a good intent does you no good when the message delivered is the result of "blindly typing".

Demasia
06-09-2003, 07:33 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>All that said, i'll say this again. I prefer druids as my main healer in Exp groups, they bring alot more to the group than a cleric does. Rez is not a concern, I can cast a 90% rez myself and the other 6% of lost exp is gained back in 2 or 3 Tier 2 kills. [/quote]

Too bad every group doesn't have a paladin.

But I disagree with your premise anyway. Every class should have the abilities to get groups and then let personality, maturity, user skill and other player characteristics play their parts.

"Ack! I died while I was LD. You said you are better than that poorly played cleric, so rez me Mr. Well Played Druid."

Keryia Winterwolf
06-09-2003, 07:56 AM
Classes are groupable or not groupable based on players perceptions and the amount of risk they are willing to take.

Since most people don't like experience loss they like clerics for primary healers.

Druids are flexible and given a chance can be a asset in a group but most groups don't want them because they don't think they bring much to the table. Sure if I have a cleric in my group I don't heal much, and if we don't have a cleric a shaman is a must to help with damage mitigation. But sometimes Shaman can be hard to find lfg.

I don't know what you can do to make druids desirable in a group. I do know that before PoP I used to cast a fair variety of spells now I'm pretty much either casting healing or nuking spells and I'm not really sure why? Could it be perceived stacking problems? Perceived buff X is better so we don't want buff Y. There are some real stacking issues.

Best of luck finding a solution that does the trick without angering some other class.

Keryia

Gianae
06-09-2003, 08:12 AM
boom, I just killed the group....bad day, /camp.

Im drowning in one day's messageboard stupidity.

~la.





Bombudil, you done yet?

you bug me........Cleric.

Bombudil
06-09-2003, 08:14 AM
Yeah I am done now, you have given up on the backpedalling and started with insults so the entertainment is not quite what it was.

TeriMoon
06-09-2003, 08:17 AM
Geez, lets not resort to name calling, ok? Grow up.

Gianae
06-09-2003, 08:34 AM
namecalling...............but he is a Cleric :mad:




Vermilion said it best.
social>anti-social for groups.

BricSummerthorne
06-09-2003, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
People get groups these days based on WHO they are, not what class they play.
[/quote]

Hmmm. By that logic, people take Paladins as exp tanks over Wars because <em>Paladins are better players</em>.

I disagree that your class is more skilled than the Warrior class. I think you have more group-friendly abilities at the moment, and thus a greater demand for your services.

nanyea starrym
06-09-2003, 08:52 AM
I'm a bit spoiled because I always have a druid (we have several excellent ones in guild Ciner, Chloris, Sinann, Pawlus...etc) in my group. I prefer them on raids because they can typically focus their heals more on group and less on assist healing or the CH rotation. For DPS, they are pretty fair, they dont charm very often because of the zones we hunt in (mostly fire/earth/water) and I will be the one charming (I'm a chanter). Heals are definately nice, I'd like to see a group heal or a faster Spirit of the Woods personally. Pop really makes the need for an evacer pointless, druid sometimes also pulls, unless i dont have a pet... or the MT (usually SHD) feels spunky then he will pull, normally we rotate pullers... once youve broken the camp.. dont really need to worry about singles.

I saw alot of different ideas for a UNIQUE class ability that are pretty decent and would allow the druid class to bring alot to the plate. These DO NOT include slow, haste, cc... I think ya'll should definately concentrate on healing/nukes... although a 90 perc res would be interesting. Druids have always been a self sufficient class, and theres a fine line between self sufficient and overpowered in the eyes of the general EQ public.

my ideas:

Better Fast heal... or group heal
Res 90 perc
Better Attack buff
better tracking

final note: in regards to harmony... harmony, the level 8 bard lament, and the series of spells from calm to pacification that enchanters/clerics get... this should be looked at and for the most part improved, yours should definately be equal to the top one outdoors and i think duration wise it is... whereas enchanters/clerics/paladins should probly have the best indoor one

Best of luck guys :) and once again thanks for the sticky

edit: so that I may be included among the ranks of trolls... 65 enchanter X 2!, 65 cleric, 65 bard... oh yeah.. beta 2 was the last public beta.. beta 4 was all in house including the staff support out of the austin office.

Darck Wolfeshadow
06-09-2003, 09:11 AM
Most of Druid grouping problems really are not due to a lack of useful tools, its due to the perception of the player base. Alot of Druids out there with no skill at all have given us a bad grouping reputation.

The only time I have had problems due to the tools I have was when passing the PoJ Execution trials. The higher than normal agro generation of Druid firepower combined with somewhat lower DPS and a time limit (alot of our abilities need a bit more time than the trials gave) hampered my performance alot compared to other classes.

Any other time, I tend to prove that Druids do just fine grouping, when I can get a group to give it a chance ;)

sudawilde
06-09-2003, 01:04 PM
i could not disagree with you anymore Darck, on the same note i refuse to retype or cut and paste my past posts to bring them here for your reading.... lol, i am lazy i guess

Yelwen Shapetwister
06-09-2003, 01:52 PM
I am a 61 Chanter and will try to add that perspective. Not in the higher tiers yet, but first, I would not be without a druid. I think there are two types or areas of healing on a raid. The main tank healing and taking care of the casters. Druids understand the tissue paper that the casters wear much better than clerics do and are way more attentive and therefore reliable as protectors of the casters. I list here the things they do for me, not what I think they should be doing. They cloroblast me instead of ch'ing me because they know how fast I die, they snare that mob chasing me so I can have time to mezz. They root for me if I am being beaten up. They add to all of my resists with the circle series. They can tank for a short period if root doesn't hold, and I have yet to find a druid not willing to die to keep a chanter alive. Exodus is a godsend (except if you are the one left behind). They transport the raid for us so we don't have to run (small task but saves hours - adding to overall DPS for the nite). Not all raids are in pop, even at 60+.

Chanters only real offensive quality in groups is CC and haste. (Not sure if mana regen is offensive or defensive.) Our biggest claim to fame is making a 6 on 6 fight a 6 on 1 fight. (Which is why the single pull scenario in pop is so bad for us.) They remain very good defensive members with the rune series, GMR, and other buffs. Under the proper conditions and up to certain levels they can add good DPS via a charmed pet and still do their CC job. Chanters have serious issues as much as any class, but that's for another board and another thread.

Naathan Kaine
06-10-2003, 11:20 AM
I didnt read much of the stuff above my last post some 30 posts back from this one. But there is one area I am not seeing being addressed on the main thread.

The 50's area for druids. Now this is one area where a druid is highly lacking in the healing department. Right now my druids best heal is essentialyl chloroblast. I would not mind if they moved down the 58 spells to the 55 area and maybe cut down the recast time of NR. Grouping is essential at the mid 50's and druids are definately not equipped to do a adequate healing or backup healing job at these levels.

At level 56 my druid is essentially stuck with soloing for XP because I definately cant even come close to being a ghetto cleric replacement in a group. I go OOM too fast casting CB all the time.

BTW let me chime in with group heals here. Something that was totally forgotten from the last thread.

Autumn10
06-10-2003, 01:00 PM
I wouldn't list snare or harmony as being something druids bring to a group anymore. With all the runspeed immune mobs and the nerf to harmony those two things have a lot less use now.

Darck Wolfeshadow
06-11-2003, 06:31 AM
Sorry Suda, we can only go with what experience teaches us. /shrug

On a side note, I don't really disagree with your reasoning, I have simply had no real difficulty making up for the shortcomings in our grouping ability.

Paldor
06-11-2003, 07:46 AM
I am for Druids and Shaman getting a quest-reagent 96% resurection at 60th.

I say 96% since it would not be used very often, and usually would be used on the CLERIC so that they can epic-click-res the rest of the "Wipe-out" raid PCs. Seems unfair to punish the cleric with only a 90% res when everyone else will get a 96%.

I would be happy if the druid version reagent was a NO DROP/LORE quest item reagent that required up to forage up 4-6 rare items and combine them in a quest-sack (Call it a "Nature Walker Ritual Kit" Large item fits in backpack wt 5.0).. Perhaps the Shaman version would require a NO DROP/LORE Alchemy potion reagent.

This would allow the non-cleric priest classes to offer "Situational" resurections while not stepping on the toes of other classes that can already ressurect.

Would this allow druids to get in groups easier? Probably not.