View Full Forums : Elemental and Time Druid Survey
10-07-2003, 07:12 PM
I have read a zillion posts about it, but thought it would be good to get some 'hard numbers' about assist healing deaths.
So, my question is, how often do you typically die due to assist /spam /offtank healing in Elemental and Time raids?
10-07-2003, 08:32 PM
This also depends where.
I never get agro in PoWater and PoFire from patch healing.
PoAir Zone in takes some tricky timing when the castellans split.
PoE Trial of Dust( or whatever its called ) is 1 heal suicide
I assume you mean spamming chloroblast?
Thats the only spell you can really consider spamming or you oom way too quick with NI.
Its very situational though for example on some time gods you need spam healing.
Others you dont need it anywhere near as much but you need very good group healing.
Then some you litterly can dot and nuke.
Rarely if you chain cast chloroblast youll gain agro from it though...I cant remeber a situation where I have.
Even if your casting NI its rare you gain agro from it .....unless the MT dies but then thats a whole different ball game then.
The biggest problem with healing for a druid in elementals / time is when your having to patch in those heals to save some one who has agro. I mean for example if your doing stage 3 in time you throw a patch in your going to get agro very very quickly.
Elementals I find is very much different than time too so its hard to put them in as the same thing.
Also it depends on your guild. For example Mortalis totally walk Fennin Ro we litterly do it with liek 30ish people and very few clerics (twinks sometimes).
But to another guild Fennin is difficult and needs maybe 60-70 people with full raid force and mass patching.
Very hard to vote :)
But id say I probbaly die once per raid on average...some times I go totally death free...other times i die alot.
10-07-2003, 09:33 PM
I only spam NI. And the nice thing about it is you don't really need to chain it so much. I generally don't have a problem spamming NI around a raid, mana wise. Agro...that is a different story.
I used to use CB on say Tactics raids since you are right it is handy for surviving agro. However, since it only heals a part of one hit of several per round, it is really almost like a slight reduction in melee dmg output rather than an actual heal.
I can CB until I go oom and not save someone. NI, timed well, can make a big difference....but yes, it is lethal.
I figured it would be hard to vote, but that NI vs. CB issue is exactly what I am thinking behind this poll. Is it reasonable that you can only reliably use a 400hp heal against mobs that hit for 800plus several times a round?
And the point behind the point is that I hear a lot of whining in game from people dieing because they didn't get a heal in time...and I KNOW how often the druids trying to heal them die (we do most of the offtank and other healing in our raids). So...again...I am wondering about the quantification.
And yes, the zone makes a big difference. Fire as noted above is not too bad, but Earth and Air I have found to be very tricky. Water it takes practice...as you get deeper in those hard hitters are a challenge, and timing is very tricky.
But in a "real" situation, I am say responsible for watching a specific offtank, but also have group members I am healing, and am trying to keep an eye on that chanter, and see that shaman is having trouble while trying to slow, etc. 90% of my raid time I am dancing that heal agro line, and often I watch someone die because I know if I heal just once more I am dead, and they will die anyway. Course...sometimes I cast the heal anyway...depends on how important it is that they have a chance to live ; ).
Dont under estimate CB.
Sure its goign to heal 500-600hp. However think a little about its benefits.
1) You can chain it for a considerable amount of time compared to NI where you littlerly cannot chain cast without ooming on boss mobs.
2) If you think of 5 druids 5 shamans (sometimes different amounts) your looking at a non stop healing of 10 x 500 = 5000HP chain healing from start to finish.
If you think if NI against this you most definatly wont be chain casting it non stop (i mean as soon as the spell pops you cast again).
3) NI has problems of it costs like 500 mana you get 1 single cast of NI on a MT and it does 0 damage thats 500 mana wasted totally.
4) Your chaining CB you get a 0 heal your looking at what 175? mana lost at most which most people at that level can regen it back or close to if your sitting on a dogmor.
Just remeber you can also crit CB doing like 1000-1100HP too and because your chaining it it crits on average alot more than NI and most of the time would that NI crit matter?
CB is also faster cast.
I might be a baby spell however its more powerfull than people think if everyone is chaining it. Sure if only you are its probably a total wast of time.
CB = chaining on boss mobs with massive damage output.
NI = group heals and mobs which have less output so you have time to decide when to heal.
one blink on some of these mobs and the MT is dead theres 0 way to judge a NI heal........try RZ (stage 5) sometime :D
10-10-2003, 09:50 AM
Hmm, good idea. I will have CB mem'ed then next time when I am on EQ ! Chain NI has been np for me so far in elemental planes. though in Time trials is a bit hard as I tend to go oom very fast. Chain NI on MT I do this: Cast NI when it almost land I watch MT's hp. if it is still at full hp I /duck and cast another NI . repeat this till mob is dead. I rarely go oom unless our dps suck or the boss mob has a ton of hp. ( for example warlord in POEb )
10-10-2003, 01:00 PM
I take an average of 3 Deaths a night due to patch healing/healing my group. Almost everytime it's a matter of a multi pull and people cannot get the mobs controlled quick enough or it is an add beating it's way through the casters and healers.
10-10-2003, 01:43 PM
Tils, I follow your example, but it is not consistent with my experiences raiding in the planes, at least with my guild.
While we have a substantial druid team (10 total mains in guild, and generally min 4 average 6-7 at a raid), and a fair number of shaman, we really don't load up so many people spamming small heals on the same people.
Let's break it down a bit...
In my guild, druids are usually too busy with other assigned tasks to be spamming the MA on a fight. Our clerics, as a rule, are divided between chaining and spamming. On some of the very high DPS fights, especially those without rampage, we do pile some druid healing in, but it is generally speaking more formal than spamming. And if we do havea spare druid spamming MA, then there is likely only going to be 1. And 400hp spams are basically without value on those fights. They will disappear in less than a second.
In the world of multipulls we generally assign druids to each of the offtanks to keep them alive, and spare clerics help too. We also are healing our groups, etc. But the gist of what I am getting at here is that again, we don't have a lot of healers available per person to cast small heals. Simply put, CB is not strong enough to keep anyone alive unless you have a LOT of people casting it.
Now, without fully loading all the variables you can get I will add a few things.
NI does not cost 500 really. With SCM3, my alteration specialization, and my MP4 items, my real "out of pool" cost for that spell is somehwere in the 350mana vicinity.
Since chaining NI=death, there is always downtime between casts. Were I casting CB, I would have to chain cast it continuously, and have a FAR lower healing per second. One NI cast is roughly equivalent to three CB's, so I can NI and pause for the duration of 2 CB casts (more or less) to control my agro and med up.
My real casting time on NI is also not that slow. With my Nightcaller legs (which I would not trade for ANYTHING) NI's cast time is around 2.6 sec while CB is 2.1. Casting time is really not that much of a consideration for me - except insofar as it means adjusting the timing of your heal cast to allow for the faster than normal heal cast time.
Boiling it down, bottom line, for me specifically (with just my gear and current AA), the real numbers are:
CB Avg Heal 565 Healing Per Second 122.82
NI Avg Heal 2310 Healing Per Second 473.85
But really, in the final analysis, the reason why I don't feel I am underestimating CB is that as an average 565 hp healed in 4.6 seconds (including resets for chain casts) it is like trying to bail out a bout with a holed bucket. The mobs are hitting for 500+ 2-4 times every 6 seconds or so. Net net, I reduce the rate at which someone dies, but only slightly.
NI...I can save their butt...and keep em alive at least long enough for a slow to get in, or for a cleric to help out if needed.
12-18-2003, 08:12 AM
I used to die much more, but as my gear and defensive AA's have stacked up, now I find that I usually only die once or twice a night most. And that's non-stop healing!
I generally spam heal with NI, but also have CB up in case mana becomes an issue. Rarely it does, but it has happened :)
01-06-2004, 11:56 AM
the only time i ever really die assist healing is if i'm trying to save a non tank class; cleric, shaman, ect. any tank at that lvl of raiding should be able to hold aggro no matter how much he's healed. if they die however, i have a good chance of dying.
guild practiced rathe council last nite and i only died once cause of a bad pull that killed the tank i was healing, but i've had nights where i seem to die every pull :rolleyes:
01-31-2004, 07:51 PM
We use chain NI's with 5 or more druids on Higher dps mobs. One second delay 2k inc heals can really help stabilize a cch when things get a little sticky. The only time I die healing is when I use NI FFA with DD's and debuffs going too :banghead_ The damn MT has to do and die, and guess who is next on the list? I guess it is better to smear a few druids while the next MT locks down agro. It spares those precious cch clerics!!!!
02-09-2004, 09:44 AM
I rarely die from healing agro. On raids in elementals and in Time I will heal (regular or spam with NI/Chloro), debuff, and throw on dots when I can. Only really die when the MT goes down, and those on the agro list before me.
02-10-2004, 06:06 AM
I am not in elementals as yet. Too much of that blocking going on right now.
However, I am usually among the last to die while issuing heals. Then again, I'm wearing 18 guage magical steel.
02-24-2004, 12:49 PM
I spam heal , for Pallys and SK's mostly
I am also in the DPS group as healer 9/10ths the time.
02-25-2004, 08:43 PM
i die 5+ times a night.... thats if its in air or earth anyways. Not much experience with water and fire i die if we wipe =)
i always use NI, mana is never ever a problem, only healing power and aggro. chloro could never ever be useful for how much i heal, i mean in the planes it heals maybe 8% on a tank? useless, its bad enough healing only 25% on the damn 9k+ tanks >.<
02-26-2004, 12:04 AM
Didn't die tonight in air, tho we only did one avatar (and not the spiders...)
I had 2 clerics in my group tho, so that helped, I came close to dying a couple times (mainly from healing the clerics lol).
On average though, I'll die a couple times a night from NI. And if the MT dies at Fennin, I'm the first one to find out as he summons and slays me right after ;).
04-21-2004, 09:30 AM
I'll make you a deal. Get my guild into elemental and time and I'll bring screenshots of my multiple deaths per raid for your viewing pleasure.
05-07-2004, 09:15 AM
I rarely die from healing. I patch with NI and am nuking as much as possible ther est of the time. During Elemental bosses, I may even swap to DoTs and healing over nukes and healing if I need to take on more of a healing role.
As someone else mentioned, my healing deaths are usually attributed to healing clerics/shaman than they are to healing tanks. That simply means the MoBs were never under control to begin with which would be a tank/guild issue, not a druid issue.
Also, I can't say Mana for healing is ever a concern for me. With clerics healing the tanks, I am only called upon to assist. I am not chain casting NI on anything. When you add in the insane amount of mana regen available on raids, I don't see how someone can get lom unless you are a cleric.
05-07-2004, 06:53 PM
I havent memmed CB since I got NI. Im with the group here that thinks that CB wont help enough on the mobs we kill. We have 2-4 druids on for any one raid, and we only die when healing other people than our tanks. Our druid roll in my guild is RT healer when neccessary, but normally spam healing / ae healing. HoTT has made us great at adding some nukes in between heals as well. =)
I hardly run out of mana unless everyone does due to length of fight, and I have yet to pull aggro unless I healed on the pull itself. Healing monks = bad!
GoD = No CB !
65 Storm Warden
05-08-2004, 08:30 PM
In elemental? never...
In time? well depends on the phase... phase3 sucks for assist healing LOL, but lately no agro. In GoD? LOL i die about 5 times per raid.
05-21-2004, 12:47 AM
<3 CB for Quarm Fight, esspecialyl when your getting hit by mana drain AEs, good thing to have a low mana heal, just so u can keep up with healing .
any other fight i'm using CB / NI from Phase 1 through 5.
i will add tho, i have goten agro for NI from say, Vallon zek for early healing or TZ for same thing, Never really had a prob with rest, quarm is a bit touchy on early quick heals tho.
only time i've goten agro from a phase 4-5 god was during cazic.. i was racing anouther druid to 100k dmg output, i won... Cazic Thule Hits YOU for 1339, 889, etc etc.
08-20-2004, 04:18 PM
All depends on who I am healing really. When I get to spam heal the chanters I can even beat out pullers in number of deaths per raid! Muahahahahaha
09-24-2004, 09:36 AM
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