Ok, the last thread was getting huge and being hijacked to hell by myself and Stormfoo, so... lets start anew.

First off, I'm hoping my database of stuff is accurate as of 10/13, if it isn't well, this is all bogus.

UPDATED: Have augmented out the Bazaar wear armor. It adds: 200 hit points, 40 attack. TODO: Still need to augment the LDoN armor.

Lets compare armors from PoP armor to LDoN armor and the VT armor. This is for rogues, fyi. This is a work in progress, I have to look up more stuff, we'll look up augments and stuff later and see how close we can get.

To me, my important stats are ATK (#1!!!), STA/HP (#2), Regen, Dex (#3), Resists (#4)


Stanos' Wicked Armor
Piece AC STR DEX STA AGI HP SVD SVP SVM SVC SVF Effects
Feet 20 4 5 6 45 5 5 5 Vengeance 3
Wrist 19 3 3 4 5 40 2 5 3 Vengeance 2
Chest 50 8 14 8 10 100 10 15 15 Shield of the Arcane
Hands 20 6 4 4 6 50 8 7 Miraculous Visions 30% haste
Head 24 4 8 2 6 50 4 6 3 Plainsight
Legs 31 7 9 9 75 7 7 7 Summon Poison
Sleeves 24 7 3 3 7 50 5 5 5 Refreshment (regen)
==============================================
Total 188 39 46 36 34 410 31 22 24 22 30


Now let's Augment out the PoP rogue Ornate armor with Aug7 items. We have 8 items and 7 augments available (Actually, I have much more than 8 items I can put type 7 augments on, so I could use all these).

Aug7 Cracked Slimestone of Combat Effect:VengeanceII
Aug7 Onyx Orb of Agression Effect:VengeanceIV
Aug7 Gleaming Ore of Dark Healing Effect:RegenerationIII
Aug7 Blackened Ore of Retribution Effect:AuraOfBattle
Aug7 Solid Coal of Prowess HP:40 (can have 5 of these)
Aug7 Crushed Slate of Health Effect:RegenerationI
Aug7 Etched Sandstone of Warmth Effect:RegenerationII

Arms, head, legs, chest, feet can get +40 hit points for an additional 200 hit points.

I can stick V4 on my gloves. V2 on left wrist, AoB on right wrist.

I will forego the regeneration for more hitpoints. And yes, I will do that for this comparison. In reality, I'd probably use regen on some existing gear pieces that are better than LDoN gear. But since we're just comparing armor sets, I won't factor it in.

Augmented Ornate

Piece AC STR DEX STA AGI HP SVD SVP SVM SVC SVF
Total 188 39 46 36 34 610 31 22 24 22 30
And 65 attack
Ultravision, see-invis,
5 per tick hit point regen
Shield of Maelin
30% spell haste (mostly useless)

Wins over Unaugmented LDoN by: 55 hit points, 65 attack, UV, See invis, 5 points of regen, Shield of Maelin (350 hitpoint self buff with 39 AC and 40 MR), 30% spell haste.

Chain LDoN armor (useless stats for rogue left off)

Piece AC STR DEX STA AGI HP SVD SVP SVM SVC SVF Effects
Incorporeal * of the Specter
Feet 24 6 6 6 70 7 7 7
Wrist 23 6 70 3 3 3 3
Hands 24 6 8 75 4 4 4 4 4
Head 29 6 5 4 75 7 7 7
Arms 29 6 6 80 7 7 7
Chest 61 13 11 100 12 12 12
Legs 38 10 85 13 13
==========================================
Total 199 25 29 26 20 555 31 33 33 26 33



Vex Thall Armor for rogues

Arm 30 10 10 15 15 100 25 25 Vengeance 10 (attack 50)
Feet 30 7 7 7 7 65 5 5 5 5 5 41% haste
Wrist 30 8 8 8 85 5 5 5 10 10 AoB (+10 attack x 2)
Hands 30 15 10 10 100 7 7 7 7 7 Vengeance 3 (+15 attack)
Head 25 15 10 85 5 5 5 5 5 Vengeance 4 (+20 attack)
Legs 35 7 7 7 7 125 7 7 7 7 7 Fiery Might (regen and ds)
Chest? 25 100 10 10 10 10 10 Fungal Regrowth
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
205 47 57 57 29 660 39 39 64 44 69

Other VT slots with +attack (2 cloaks with V3, 1 cloak with 41% haste, 2 rings with V2, Waist item with Aob (+10 attack)

Total attack bonus (so far, not counting bp and legs): 130

Next step is to try to augment out the LDoN gear to come close.

Ok, looking at what can go in Slot 1 (from things you buy). It looks not so great. Here's a list of what a rogue would probably think about. I'm going to pretend I don't have an avatar proc'ing weapon so Dex is going to be a priority and I'm losing tons of it with LDoN armor:

Right now, comparing Augmented Orante to Unaugmented LDoN I would lose:


Piece AC STR DEX STA AGI HP SVD SVP SVM SVC SVF
Total +11 -14 -17 -10 -14 -45 0 +11 +9 +4 +3

Missing: All effects


Lets restore what we can do with Slot 1.

Peerless Sphere of Fortitude Lore, Sta:10
Polished Ore of Power Str:8, Dex:8
Polished Ore of Power Str:8, Dex:8
Dungeon drop: Sta: 6
Dungeon drop: Sta: 6
Dungeon drop: Sta: 6
Dungeon drop: HP: 12
Peerless Jewel of Nimbleness Lore, Agi:10

I have 3 more open slots for type ANY, I'd probably save them for dungeon dropped STA or Hit point augments. Extremely RARE!!!!

Piece AC STR DEX STA AGI HP SVD SVP SVM SVC SVF
Total +11 +2 -1 +18 -4 -45 0 +11 +9 +4 +3
Missing: All effects still


ok, what's available for Slot type 2?
More stats... in fact, I'd probably want to chose my #2's before my #1's because they seem better. I could leave #1's open for dungeon drops.

1150 Glowing Prism of Brawling Notlore, Dex:5, Sta:5, HP:20 (head, arm, wrist, hand leg, feet, chest)

It's becoming clear, based on the Aug2 selection that I don't think I'll have a problem maxing out my stats, even possibly STA, with full shammy buffs.

Here's all the ones involving STA and HP
Guk 1150 Aug2 Glowing Prism of Brawling Notlore, Dex:5, Sta:5, HP:20 All Head,
Arm, Wrist, Hand, Chest, Leg, Feet
Guk 760 Aug2 Yellowish Magnetite of Vitality Notlore, HP:30 All Head, Arm, Wris
t, Hand, Chest, Leg, Feet
Guk 510 Aug2 Magnetite Fragment of Fortitude Notlore, Sta:10, PR:5 All All
Guk 340 Aug2 Quartz Shard of Force Notlore, Dex:6, Sta:6 All All
Guk 220 Aug2 Uneven Quartz of Sturdiness Notlore, Sta:5, Agi:5 All All
Guk 220 Aug2 Robust Blue-Flecked Guards Shard Notlore, HP:15 All Head, Arm, Wri
st, Hand, Chest, Leg, Feet
Guk 100 Aug2 Tellow Microcline Shard of Vigor Notlore, HP:10 All Head, Arm, Wri
st, Hand, Chest, Leg, Feet
Mmc 760 Aug2 Fetid Soil of Hardiness Str:10, Sta:5, Cha:5 All All
Mmc 510 Aug2 Tainted Soil of Battle Stance Str:7, Sta:7 All All
Mmc 510 Aug2 Eroded Soil of Tenacity HP:25 All Head, Arm, Wrist, Hand, Chest, L
eg, Feet
Mmc 340 Aug2 Thick Soil of Vitality HP:20 All Head, Arm, Wrist, Hand, Chest, Le
g, Feet
Mmc 340 Aug2 Putrid Soil of Essence HP:10, Mana:10 All Ear, Face, Neck, Shoulde
r, Back, Range, Primary, Secondary, Finger, Waist
Mmc 100 Aug2 Broken Crypt Stone of Fortitude Sta:6 All All
Mmc 30 Aug2 Crumbling Crypt Stone of Power Str:4, Sta:1 All All
Ruj 1150 Aug2 Crystal Prism of Perception Sta:10, Wis:10 All All
Ruj 1150 Aug2 Glowing Crystal of Endowments HP:20, Mana:20 All All
Ruj 760 Aug2 Adamantine Orb of Intensity HP:15, Mana:15 All Ear, Face, Neck, Sh
oulder, Back, Range, Primary, Secondary, Finger, Waist
Ruj 510 Aug2 Feldspar Fragment of Tolerance Notlore, Sta:5, Cha:5, Agi:5 All Al
l
Ruj 150 Aug2 Notched Shard of Lost Spirits Sta:4, Int:4 All All
Tak 1150 Aug2 Glowing Saphire of Courage HP:40 All Head, Arm, Wrist, Hand, Ches
t, Leg, Feet
Tak 1150 Aug2 Pristine White Spphire of Sense Sta:10, Int:10 All All
Tak 760 Aug2 Sapphire Sphere of Havoc Notlore, Dex:8, Sta:4, Agi:8 All All

Lets say, I decide hit points are king, since so many people feel that way. I will add 8 * 30 hit points (240) to my total LDoN set. And it exceeds Ornate stat-wise, in most areas. After my 18,032 ldon mission it now compares like this to Ornate armor.

Where do I stand now?


Piece AC STR DEX STA AGI HP SVD SVP SVM SVC SVF
Total +11 +2 -1 +18 -4 +195 0 +11 +9 +4 +3
Missing: All effects


Effects

These are the effects I'd be interested in from LDoN.

Guk 1450 Aug3 Cold Slimestone of Fury Lore, Effect:VengeanceIV All All
Guk 1150 Aug3 Pristine Limestone of Hatred Lore, Effect:VengeanceIV War, Pal, Rng, Shd, Mnk, Brd, Rog, Bst All
Guk 340 Aug3 Limestone of Suffocation Effect:Enduring Breath (worn) All All
Guk 220 Aug3 Scarred Limestone of Vengeance Lore, Effect:VengeanceI All All
Mir 760 Aug3 Ice Prism of Avoidance Lore, Mod:Dodge+8% All All
Mir 340 Aug3 Eternal Ice of Replenishment Lore, Effect:Regeneration II (worn) All All
Mir 220 Aug3 Eternal Ice of Reconstruction Lore, Effect:RegenerationII All All
Mmc 1150 Aug3 Gravestone Fragment of Battle Mastery Lore, Effect:Aura of Battle(worn) All All
Mmc 510 Aug3 Gravestone of Aggression Lore, Effect:VengeanceIII All Chest
Mmc 340 Aug3 Night Agent Gravestone Fragment Lore, Effect:Ultravision All All
Mmc 150 Aug3 Worn Gravestone of Awareness Lore, Effect:See Invisible (worn) All All
Mmc 40 Aug3 Crumbled Gravestone of Renewal Lore, Effect:RegenerationI All Ear,Head, Face, Neck, Shoulder, Back, Finger, Waist
Ruj 760 Aug3 Polished Sandstone of Ire Lore, Effect:VengeanceIII All All
Ruj 760 Aug3 Refined Ore of Wellness Effect:RegenerationIII All All
Ruj 760 Aug3 Translucent Ore of Courage Effect:AuraofCourage All All
Ruj 100 Aug3 Refined Ore of Regeneration Lore, Effect:Regeneration I (worn) All All
Tak 510 Aug3 Dull Sandstone of Ire Lore, Effect:Vengeance II (worn) All All
Tak 510 Aug3 Shiny Sandstone of Reconstruction Lore, Effect:Regeneration V (worn) All Chest
Tak 150 Aug3 Cracked Sandstone of Health Lore, Effect:Regeneration I (worn) All All
Tak 760 Aug3 Gleaming Sandstone of Deflection Lore, Effect:ShieldofPainII All All

But my complaint was specifically about adding attack. So my goal here will be to add as much attack as possible, and try to get all the spell effects that bazaar wear has.

See Invis: Mmc 150 Aug3 Worn Gravestone of Awareness Lore, Effect:See Invisible (worn) All All (easy and cheap)

I'll skip ultravision, I'm a dark elf. However, there should be a Plainsight augment for those inferior creatures infesting Norrath.

Cold Slimestone of Fury Lore, Effect:VengeanceIV
Pristine Limestone of Hatred Lore, Effect:VengeanceIV
Polished Sandstone of Ire Lore, Effect:VengeanceIII (chest)
Dull Sandstone of Ire Lore, Effect:Vengeance II
Scarred Limestone of Vengeance Lore, Effect:VengeanceI
Gravestone Fragment of Battle Mastery Lore, Effect:Aura of Battle
Translucent Ore of Courage Effect:AuraofCourage

Couple of comments first...

There's some weirdness here. The Cold Slimestone is V4 and costs 1450, the Pristine Limestone of Hatred is V4 and costs 1150. Why the big different in cost?

There's two Augments that are limited to Chest. You can take your pick between either using Regeneration V or Vengeance 3 for the chestal region. Dunno why those are limited like that. It's pooey, I want both. But I'll take the V3 in this case, because my stated goal is as much attack as possible. That leaves one slot available for one other effect..

Worn Gravestone of Awareness Lore, Effect:See Invisible

Yay.

Ok, lets take a look at the final tally:


Piece AC STR DEX STA AGI HP SVD SVP SVM SVC SVF
Total +11 +2 -1 +18 -4 +195 0 +11 +9 +4 +3
LDoN Effects compared to Ornate
Attack +90 (+35 over Bazaar wear)
See Invis
-2 regen

Bazaar Effects Not Replaced:
Ultravision
5 per tick hit point regen
Shield of Maelin (Pretty nice with no Shammy in the group)
30% spell haste (mostly useless)
Poison Summoning (a toy)


My Analysis

I think I'm feeling better about it, providing the Adventure Merchant database I'm using is correct. It looks like it exceeds Bazaar wear in the areas I'm most concerned about. Yet the slot 7 actually means I can keep one or two of the unusual items I have that I really like, like my belt from the Worm in AC. And I can toss a V4 item on it and be pretty happy.

Some of the weaknesses I feel LDoN has lootwise are:

No 40-41% haste item.
I think the price cost between the two V4 items that are #3's is weird.
I'd like the Regen V not to be chest only.
There should be a Plainsight augment.

Finally, my last comparison will be between VT and LDoN armor. But I'll do that later.

Ya know there is a very fundamental flaw with this comparison pan, and not any I have pointed out previously. The problem is you are using LDoN on both sides of the equation. Think about it, before LDoN how would you get those augments? I do see the point you are going for with this one, and I tend to agree, but I say make it a concrete arguement and leave nothing out. So really compare the unauged ornate to auged LDoN and see what happens. Then compare the ornate and the LDoN and see if the LDoN couldnt use a boost comparitivly still, as the upgrade isnt that much overall.

Hopefully the point im trying to make came across better to you then it did to me.

Hmmm... you're right and you're wrong.

I think augmented Ornate should not be better than augmented LDoN. And comparing it, I don't think it is.

I think the stuff that should be the driving force behind a casual player (i.e., non-raider) should be getting their new expansion gear and augmenting it. The difference is between earning a couple of thousand AP's, buying your slot #7 stuff and saying, "I'm all done", or working at it a lot longer and having much more to look forward to with more substantial rewards for a far longer path.

I think the folks the slot 7 stuff was really aimed at was the people in much better armor. Whether it hits the mark with them or not, I can't really judge.

I do understand your desires here Panamah but I must admit that (especially as a Rogue) I cannot think that comparing augmented Ornate and augmented LDoN Miragul's is all that fair.

One can get a suite of Ornate relatively quickly in comparison to the top chain set, even if it were only through buying the bits that did not drop while farming BoT through proceeds gained hunting the other slot 7 augments. The number of adventures needed to complete that dream set represents a truely stunning amount of time, as I know you point out.

Personally it is no question for me. I'll LDoN for slot 7 augments and for the vengance mask and perhaps the 16/19 dagger combonation. I'll also hunt for some Ornate occasionally (it really isn't much better than a number of bazaar bought cheap items) and continue to raid now and again for small goodies that catch my eye. If anything I am coming close to abandoning LDoN altogether as things stand.

PS: Your 18,032 LDoN adventures would at least net you ~400k plat to play with I suppose, ignoring salable loot =)

One can get a suite of Ornate relatively quickly in comparison to the top chain set, even if it were only through buying the bits that did not drop while farming BoT through proceeds gained hunting the other slot 7 augments.

Realtively quickly my ass. I've seen one piece of ornate chain drop, and it wasn't even in my group. A friend got it in another group while I was visiting her. *hugs Shroud of Stealth*

Every single time something ornate drops when I'm there, it's always plate and I never, ever win the rolls. Not once. And that is 0 for 20 something rolls.

I never, ever win the rolls. Not once. And that is 0 for 20 something rolls.


My new theory is that people who are good at /random will migrate back to BoT and people who are bad at /random will stay in LDoN.

Only problem is, what will be the cumulative effect of all that bad karma when everyone in the group is congenitally unlucky?

soru

/hijack Pana

EDIT: I'd still mix and match hon. Grab yourself a couple V2 Bracers and the V3 Arms, then grab as much as you can from LDoN to get the max possible worn attack.

I don't get it.

Does anybody use only armor from 1 expansion?

Or is every body gathering things from across EQ as a whole?

LDoN is the "aug" expansion. It's dungeons with loot to augment your existing armor from across all of EQ. I don't think the point is to have 100% of your gear from 1 expansion of EQ.

Also, Pana, you do realize that the guilds and players that you have played EQ with are now clearing VT and also got RZtW to 7% last night. The very guilds and people that argue they are "casual gamers"

/shrug. Being flammed over and over again for being a power gamer and only "uber guilds" can do VT etc, seems ironic that those who claim to be casual are doing the very zones I used to be flammed so much for.....

I do understand your desires here Panamah but I must admit that (especially as a Rogue) I cannot think that comparing augmented Ornate and augmented LDoN Miragul's is all that fair.


True, Ornate is easier to get (go shop in Bazaar), but it's become a little rarer. Currently on Drinal there are 3 BP's for sale, and the other pieces come and go occassionally. No one seems to want the BP.

I don't have a lot of confidence in my data just yet, I'll know more soon.



/shrug. Being flamed over and over again for being a power gamer and only "uber guilds" can do VT etc, seems ironic that those who claim to be casual are doing the very zones I used to be flammed so much for.....

There's a lot of guilds on Drinal that are raiding pretty heavily. Mine included, however I don't raid, Trevize. I wouldn't call any of those guilds "casual" if they're doing VT. They might not be as hardcore as Cats, but they're definitely not casual if they're raiding 4-6 times a week like mine is.

As far as replacing stuff every expansion, is there a slot you didn't replace in PoP, Trevize? Or expect to replace? I know you're still doing Time.

is there a slot you didn't replace in PoP, Trevize? Or expect to replace? I know you're still doing Time.


Yep. Offhand, Torch of Judgement from VT.. Haven't figured out a way to replace that..... Loosing FT6 would drop me below FT15..... Course I have my eye on Quarm's Worl of Unnatural Forces. But my point is I've been using many items from pre-pop for a very long time. You don't just zone into potime and "poof" you're potime geared. It takes a lot of farming to gear up 72 people with all the items they want.

You don't just zone into potime and "poof" you're potime geared.

I was lied to :( I thought I was getting my TT orb and quarm bracer when I zoned in, but I cried when there was nothing on my curser.

geat analysis!

I had hoped to do something similiar but work takes up too much time lately =/ However, this matches my "gut feeling" about where LDoN armor was coming out to, post-patches.

A few comments:

In terms of comparing the expansion armor sets, in an effort to determine if this expansion was itemized properly, the approriate comparison is unaugmented ornate vs. augmented LDoN. That is, what is the best attainable "casual gamer" armor available form each? And I think we can agree pretty readily on this one - LDoN is a huge improvement.

In terms of making a decision about what to actually wear, I agree with the comparison you've done: augmented ornate vs. augmented LDoN.

Yep. Offhand, Torch of Judgement from VT.. Haven't figured out a way to replace that..... Loosing FT6 would drop me below FT15..... Course I have my eye on Quarm's Worl of Unnatural Forces. But my point is I've been using many items from pre-pop for a very long time. You don't just zone into potime and "poof" you're potime geared. It takes a lot of farming to gear up 72 people with all the items they want.


No? Hmmm.... damn I thought it said so on the side of the box. j/k

But anyways, I made my point. After playing a little more than a year in PoP expansion you're probably going to replace every slot, except one perhaps.

Let me see...

I have one Kunark era item (epic)
Probably 8 Velious era items (1 from NToV, 3 from ST)
A couple one groupable Luclin items.
2 PoP armor pieces, PoP jewelry
A BoT tower dagger

So, as a mostly casual player I see upgrades on the order of years. I don't think it's too much to ask LDoN to replace everything I've currently got.

Trevize loses again :).

Well.. I keep saying this..

Say in 1 year the following is true:

CasualEQ plays 50/365 dyas
HardcoreEQ plays 200/365 days
ConfusedEQ plays 100/365 days

CasualEQ upgrades 5 items in that time
HardcoreEQ upgrades 15 items in that time
ConfusedEQ upgrade 8 items in that time.

Who wins? Who's getting more upgrades per time spent actually playing.

This is the typical scenero I see in the casual vs hardcore debate. "Casual" wants the same "stuff" that Hardcore gets in the same amount of "real" time and *not* the "played" time.

If you want upgrades so badly, then LOGIN and PLAY. If you're real life doesn't allow you that kind of time then accept that in the "world of EQ" you cannot have the same gear options as those who play more then you. Why is this so difficult a concept to grasp!!!

If everybody could get the best items in game by being casual and hardly playing there would be no point to the "end game" and people would quit EQ in droves out of total boredem.

So yes, I replaced most all my gear with PoP gear. However I play 1 charactor, I have no twinks and in the space of time I replaced all that gear I have probably 4-5 times the amount of online time as you have had since the release of PoP. Forgetting gear, I've gained over 350AA pts alone since PoP came out. CasualEQ has gained how many AA's since PoP was release? (excluding Scirocco =P)

So, basically if you want to keep your same playing schedule you can replace your gear wtih all pop items in bsically the same amount of time online that I spent. However in doing so about 7 real years will pass by.

It takes an enormous amount of effort and time to get where end game guilds have fotten. For the CasualEQ player to keep constantly pushing the "my stats aren't good enough" debate is really annoying. People in End Game PoTime guilds don't have maxed stats either!!!!!!

If you want upgrades so badly, then LOGIN and PLAY. If you're real life doesn't allow you that kind of time then accept that in the "world of EQ" you cannot have the same gear options as those who play more then you. Why is this so difficult a concept to grasp!!!


WTH are you flaming over? I'm not complaining about the time it takes to get them (yet).

I think most non-raiders understand they're going to get upgrades in LDoN slowly, depending on how much they play. I haven't pronounced any judgements on whether or not I think it is or isn't excessive. I haven't really decided yet either. Non-raiders sometimes play a lot of hours. I used to at one point but it keeps diminishing.

You said you didn't expect to replace every piece in each expansion, then you pretty much said you were replacing each piece in PoP. So you're contradicting yourself. I pointed that out.

As far as maxing out stats, maybe we're comparing apples and oranges. When I say maxed I mean with shammy and cleric buffs. When you say maxed, are you talking about unbuffed? I'd be REAL surprised if you're not maxed out with buffs. Ok, mana and hitpoints are not stats you can even max, so I wasn't even discussing them. And I don't care if my Wisdom, Int and Cha are maxed. But right now, with my hodge podge of gear from all expansions, I have Str, Dex and Agi maxed at 305 (with full buffs!). STA is weak... /sigh

I was trying to compare not the length of time it takes, but that there was an upgrade of each slot available to you in every expansion. Whereas for me, as a non-raider, there hasn't been upgrades available to me for a long time with each expansion. This isn't about time, it's about opportunity. I could've put in an 100 hours a week in PoP, Luclin and Velious and still not been able to upgrade slots. That wasn't a time-playing issue.

So with LDoN it looked like finally an opportunity for casual players, given enough time, will be able to upgrade each slot. Then a series of nerfs hits and questions come up. Will this really be a decent upgrade path or is it just better to warm up the old junk with #7 augments?

On analyzing more closely (provided my data is good) I think it is pretty good. But I suspect it'll probably be another week or so before I can verify the data.

I can pull made up statistics out of my ass about how often hardcore, casual and "confused" players get upgrades too, but it's painful and leads to having to use lots of Preparation H.

"Casual" wants the same "stuff" that Hardcore gets in the same amount of "real" time and *not* the "played" time.

Where did Pana ever say she wanted the same stuff? She didn't. Nor have I. We both would like to see the gap closed between casual players and the hardcore players. It's ridiculous how big that gap is now. And it will continue to grow since it takes so freaking long to get the upgrades from LDoN.

I had hoped LDoN was just going to be random instance of dungeons with named mobs that dropped good loot. Casual players would finally have a way to log on, crawl a dungeon, and walk away with some loot to use or sell, without worrying about idiotic farmers camping the named mobs over and over and over just so they could sell the gear and then sell the plat on PA.

Instead, we got what LDoN is and I'm not really pleased with it. Sure, customizing the armor is great. And I'll finally get a 16 dmg weapon that doesn't require a raid, but I'll still be using my epic, a Kunark era weapon because I can't afford to replace the haste and the seething fury effect on it.

The cost for the adventure items are too high for the casual player to see steady, decent upgrades.

If you want upgrades so badly, then LOGIN and PLAY. If you're real life doesn't allow you that kind of time then accept that in the "world of EQ" you cannot have the same gear options as those who play more then you. Why is this so difficult a concept to grasp!!!

EverQuest is a game, and we want to have fun too... is that so difficult a concept for you to grasp? How fun would the game be for you if you only got one upgrade every three or four months?

If everybody could get the best items in game by being casual and hardly playing there would be no point to the "end game" and people would quit EQ in droves out of total boredem.

No, only the hardcore players would quit and I'm not convinced that would be a bad thing. An example... Diablo II. It's fairly easy to get to max level with a great set of gear, yet that game is as popular as ever. Maybe if you had the best gear... and you'd done pretty much everything... you might think about actually roleplaying in EverQuest instead of LootWhoring?

Aly-

I had hoped LDoN was just going to be random instance of dungeons with named mobs that dropped good loot. Casual players would finally have a way to log on, crawl a dungeon, and walk away with some loot to use or sell, without worrying about idiotic farmers camping the named mobs over and over and over just so they could sell the gear and then sell the plat on PA.

Instead, we got what LDoN is and I'm not really pleased with it. Sure, customizing the armor is great. And I'll finally get a 16 dmg weapon that doesn't require a raid, but I'll still be using my epic, a Kunark era weapon because I can't afford to replace the haste and the seething fury effect on it.

Ok.. where to start.

You said that you wanted casuals to be able to log on, go through a dungeon and get upgrades. Well I have great news for you!! There are nameds in instanced dungeons that are all your own! No "idiotic farmer" can take it from you, and quite a bit of them are fair to moderate upgrades. Atleast they have been so far for a 63 Warrioress friend of mine ;)

In one breath you seem pleased that you can finally get a nice dagger, and in the very next breath you are complaining about having to equip your epic still! I got news for you, I'm Time enabled and I'm still using my Epic too (woot, 10 hps).

Panamah-

I'm still wearing a mix of Kunark (epic), Velious (actually, I *just* replaced my last piece a week ago), Luclin (Upper Ssra, VT), and PoP stuff. Granted, I've recently gotten to a greater percentage of PoP stuff than anything else, but I certainly don't think I'll upgrade every slot in PoP. I've even got 1 LDoN item ;) To me, it's just better to mix it up, take the best I can get of each.

Bah.. forget it.

We enjoy different aspects of the game. Leave it at that.

I'm not flamming btw. Just bantering in an flamboyent manner. =P

Also, many people in end game guilds do only get upgrades once every three or four months =P. /shrug.

My point there was it isn't really any difference which zone in EQ you spend your time in, be it Velks or PoTime where you have fun, you should be allowed to have your fun in the context and aspect of the game you choose too. I'm trying desperately to get away from player to player conparsons because they are inherently wrong. It shouldn't be uber vs casual, it *should* be players as a whole coming up with ideas to express to Sony.


Where did Pana ever say she wanted the same stuff? She didn't. Nor have I. We both would like to see the gap closed between casual players and the hardcore players.

That statement confuses me. Please explain.

I read that and think.. Ok you don't want the same stuff, but you want different stuff to have the same stats?

I'm not trying to be rude or confrontational. Just trying to understand specifically what it is you're trying to ask for.


you might think about actually roleplaying in EverQuest instead of LootWhoring?


Ummm.. I'm not intentionally being insultive, at least none of my statements should be taken as personal insults cause they weren't.. So lets not cross that line, k?
Plus if it was roleplaying you wanted to enjoy then getting any armor upgrades wouldn't be an issue to you. =P Sides, I'm not into roleplaying. Never really was, and never will be.

but I certainly don't think I'll upgrade every slot in PoP.

Ok, is that because there isn't an upgrade available for you in every slot in PoP or because of other factors? Sounded like Trevize is upgrading every slot (except possibly one), why would another druid not?

I'm not flamming btw. Just bantering in an flamboyent manner. =P
Either way, I'm keeping the kerosene far away from you. :p



Also, many people in end game guilds do only get upgrades once every three or four months =P. /shrug.
Well... I think it comes in spurts for you folks. If you're upgrading every slot in one expansion's worth of time then that's a lot more than one every 3 months. There are 21 slots (not counting ammo or bag slots). :)

I think the game should probably seek to reinforce your habit at least once a month, possibly even twice a month by delivering a pellet when you press the bar. Now, whose gaming time you base that off of... yours or mine, I dunno. Base it off yours and I'll be going 6 months between tasty pellets. :p

Because you only get so many dropped items on raids, and have a lot of people on the raid that need them generally, and regardless of how you distribute loot it takes a lot of farming for everyone to get hooked up.

Ok, is that because there isn't an upgrade available for you in every slot in PoP or because of other factors? Sounded like Trevize is upgrading every slot (except possibly one), why would another druid not?

Theoretically I could, but that would mean that I got a whole lot more upgrades than my fellow leather wearers or priests in my guild. It's about upgrading the standard base of gear of the whole guild, so that we can survive and conquer new challenges. If I upgraded items I already have that are on par with what I need, just to get a bit more, isn't that a bit greedy?

Despite opinions of most folks, all of us in a raiding guild aren't loot whores. We do realize though that your gear has to be of a certain standard if you intend to progress. And since I want to see everything the game has to offer, that means I *must* upgrade my gear. But that also means I'll take what I need, and make sure the other guildies also have what they need.

In one breath you seem pleased that you can finally get a nice dagger, and in the very next breath you are complaining about having to equip your epic still! I got news for you, I'm Time enabled and I'm still using my Epic too (woot, 10 hps).

Rogues use two weapons though silly. And it's very, very, VERY hard for a casual rogue to ever get rid of their epic. 41% haste, +40 atk, and all the stats... there's just no way I can replace all those stats easilly without joining a raiding guild. And I don't want to be in that kind of guild. I don't want to ride on the backs of everyone else in the guild just to get a new dagger or a piece of armor here and there.

It's not like I would really be working for it or earning it. I'd just be sitting there punching backstab every few seconds making sure I'm behind the mob. And now in PoP, all I hear about are these mobs with horrendous AE's. Nothing I can do about them except stand outside the range of it and plink tiny throwing daggers for maybe 2 dps.

I have ideas for making raids and single group encounters fun, but they'd never hire someone with no background in programming or any work in the gaming industry and my feedbacks have gone unread.

edit: Clarifying the same/different stuff for Trevize. I just want to be able to do what I'm supposed to do as a rogue. Put out damage. Right now, there is no reason to accept me into a group unless you need a lock picked or a trap disarmed since my DPS is so pathetic compared to almost any Ranger/Wizard/Mage of equal level.

I just want to see the gap between the hardcore gamer and casual gamer narrowed somewhat. It's ridiculous how big that gap is right now.

My point though is that, there's is an upgrade available to you for each slot. Whether your guild is too big, doesn't farm enough to upgrade everyone or decides enough is enough and moves on, doesn't really matter. I'd assume you'll continue to farm Time until the next big raiding expansion hits, right?

So you were saying you wouldn't get an upgrade for each slot, that is different from not having an upgrade available. That's the point I am trying to make.

And yes, you're a loot whore in the worst way! For the last time, NO! I will not give you my dwarf mask for a cyber session with you! j/k

I don't want to ride on the backs of everyone else in the guild just to get a new dagger or a piece of armor here and there.

Don't go there. That will get you nowhere with me or anyone else. You aren't part of a raiding guild, so you have little to no idea what you would be doing, and you certainly don't know what I'd be doing. So to suggest that folks in raiding guilds are 'riding the back of everyone else' is bogus :p

Seriously, do you ever think about how insulting it is to those of us who put our time and effort into something to hear you spew crap about not earning what we have. Which is essentially what you just said.

It reminds me of the old skool report cards:

"Doesn't play well with others."

And yes, you're a loot whore in the worst way! For the last time, NO! I will not give you my dwarf mask for a cyber session with you! j/k

Say it ain't so, oh well, you can have cybers for free! *licks*

I know from personal experience what my role is on a raid. Poke the monsters in the back and make them dead. And if I'm the only rogue... I might be able to scout. However, most people have maps and know where every single mob is.

And yes, I know how insulting my comment was. Doesn't make it any less truthful. Uber guilds didn't earn their gear because they're more skilled. They earned it because they have more free time. That is the problem with the end game. It is catered to the people that can sit in front of the computer.

At least with LDoN, I can earn some decent gear at my own pace. I am in the mindset that it will take far too long though, to get a fully upgraded set as LDoN currently stands.

Nevermind Aly, not even worth trying to explain it. You are obviously too narrow-minded.

It's about upgrading the standard base of gear of the whole guild,


Oh man do I wish I could get my guildies to understand this.

Originally posted by Aly
At least with LDoN, I can earn some decent gear at my own pace. I am in the mindset that it will take far too long though, to get a fully upgraded set as LDoN currently stands.

I wonder what you consider as taking too long to get upgrades. Since PoP came out I have now replaced about 90% of my equipment with gear from PoP. However I am a member of the top guild on my server and I spend a lot of my time raiding. Until recently we used to raid 7 nights a week for about 5 hours a night. So it has taken me that long to upgrade most of my gear.

If you played LDoN for 7 nights a week, 5 hours a night for 6 months I expect you would have a fully upgraded set of LDoN gear too.

I know from personal experience what my role is on a raid. Poke the monsters in the back and make them dead. And if I'm the only rogue... I might be able to scout. However, most people have maps and know where every single mob is.

This is allready one reason why you are not a part of a raiding guild. With me being a druid. That would be saying. I nuke. and heal once in a while. Every class can do a lot more then just the things ppl asume the class will be about.

And yes, I know how insulting my comment was. Doesn't make it any less truthful. Uber guilds didn't earn their gear because they're more skilled. They earned it because they have more free time.

If you think we're (i'll say we for now yes) are not more skilled then casual players (in avg) then you are just ignorant. How do you build skill ? Indeed, by DOING and PRACTICING things. Also, you'd be surpised how many high end players will make less online hours then a LOT of casual players. It's a difference in time spending. Many of my guilds raiders (keepers of the faith) are not online more then lets say 3 - 4 hours a day. Sure its still not little, but i know a lot of people who are on more then them and are casual players.

That is the problem with the end game. It is catered to the people that can sit in front of the computer.

Yeah i totally agree. But that's a problem of EVERY GAME. If you don't sit in front of your computer, you will gain nothing in no game at all.

Maybe if you had the best gear... and you'd done pretty much everything... you might think about actually roleplaying in EverQuest instead of LootWhoring?

How about we all do what we like to do in game ? If you wanna roleplay, be my guest. I play more games then just EQ and i am in a strict roleplaying guild there. I enjoy it there. But in EQ that's not my game to play. And the way you put it in words. Why don't you stop whining about the whole casual - uber thing which has been discussed for more times then i picked my nose in the past 25 years and actually play the game ?

- Mol

Originally posted by Aly
[B] Uber guilds didn't earn their gear because they're more skilled. They earned it because they have more free time. That is the problem with the end game. It is catered to the people that can sit in front of the computer.
[B]

Bull****.

What do you think all that time is spent doing, waiting around for Quarm to die of old age? (plane of time, old age, haha get it? no? thank god) Guilds work their ass off to go kill boss mobs and craptastic ring events to do earn what? 1 peice of loot per person maybe 1-2 times a month. Are all these raids cake? Try to take 71 casual players (in oh say... tier 3 stuffs) and 1 raid leader who knows what hes doing against the rztw event. Whats gonna happen? failure. Granted these people have "grouping skills" which are highly valuable in dungeons and exp groups but there is another set of skills in eq, and that is "raiding skills"(soloing and duoing too yada yada thats not the focus). Like how you have to be on the ball deep in some dangerous dungeon, you also have to be on the ball in a raid, when a cleric slacks and tanks to down and **** hits the fan, you have to know what to do. Without working as a team with your whole guild its not gonna happen.

Example: NightRaid.

On the server I play, Drinal, Nightraid is an organization led by Defy logic from Cats in Hats. Starts at 12pm EST and often consists of some 100 people going to zerg a PoP boss mob. This has worked, quite succesfully so far. MB, dead, TT, dead, Grummus, dead, saryn, dead, bert, dead, agnarr, dead, mith marr, dead, TZ/VZ, dead, sol ro minis, deaded. All to any person who wants to come along in the raids. In PoP, zerg > strategy, mostly. However the 3rd, 4th, 5th rate guilds on our server normally field numbers of 40-60 on an given PoP raid (what my guild has had, and gotk and dm have been reporting) and all three of these guilds have beaten these same encounters without insane numbers through strategy. Now, NightRaid vs. RZTW.

The leader has to now choose 71 players to lead against RZ as anyone not in the raid attacking him will be smacked outta zone. Most of these ppl are just casuals who went along for the ride, as you have been saying. And where are the ubers? sure there might be a few cats there, bored most likely. 2nd guild on our server, few more ppl from them, also bored, as they are in elementals, almost ready to get to time. The next 3 guilds (around the same level, all theoretically within a few weeks of each other, mine included) do not often show up. 1 guild has banned their members from nightraid. My guild strongly discourages it as we want to kill rztw all together, and i dont know about the other european guild, but i dont recall seeing a large amount of them either. The next guilds up on the charts are in ssra, or low low PoP (panamahs guild for example). These and the casual (ie: screw around) guilds are the ones that make up the majority of a standard nightraid. From what happened the first time, its quite obvious to everyone what it will take a lot of practicing (what raiding guilds must do) for them to have a real shot at getting the organization that is nightraid into elem planes.

It perhaps may be beyond you aly, as youve stated that you see your job only to poke things, so maybe every event is the same for rogues (oh wow, agnarrs ass is MUCH more enjoyable to poke than terris thules rowr!) but i honestly wouldnt know, being as ive never played one and am going from your words alone. I think that is a class issue however, not uber vs casual stuff. Being that the druid is a jack of all trades and an excellent healer, we often need to watch peoples health, kite mobs, nuke, grc, and generally pay a hell of a lot of attention if its an event on par to what the guild does for a challenge (not trivial luclin stuffs for tier 3 PoP guilds).

I have a total of 3 raid quality loots, out of the three months I have been a full member ive been in my guild, after countless raids, dont you dare tell me I earned my gear by piggybacking.

And just for reference, my guild is almost sol ro flagged, only needing MM, and ele flagged when we kill rztw which is not too far off. You can look at my magelo here to se my uber equipments but i warn you, you may cry, and not for the reasons you would think.
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=708238

wow i wrote alot.... oh well just wasting school time :D

edit: just saw mol's post and she made alotta the points that i was trying to, just probably more clearly than i did lol.

Why don't you stop whining about the whole casual - uber thing which has been discussed for more times then i picked my nose in the past 25 years and actually play the game ?

That's harsh too, cuz Moli picks her nose lots n lots !

/nod

Good post Scenera =D

Basic sum up I have for eq "tactics" is:

I could post the exact tactic for just about every mob in game all the way to Quarm. Spell it out in great detail. But you know what? You can take that tactic and fail every time you try. EQ isn't about "strats" for a certain mob. Hell most the strats are all exactly the same. The real tactic is getting 72 people who can play their class really well on a raid, who really knows what their spells really do, who know where the agro curve is on a boss mob, who work well together as a team. Who LISTEN to a leader and know what to when he types something like "OFFENSE NOW" or "SANPIPER" and Also know what to do when he types those in horribly misspelled fasion =P.

When we take in new recruites to CiH the hardest thing is teaching them how the "machine" CiH works. Very little time is spent on teaching them some great strat to kill uber_mob_01. The real trick is learning to interact on a raid and respond correctly with other guildmates. THAT is the real tactic of EQ.

Also there is real meaning in the "Trevize Rough Necks" Everybody fights, no one quits. RAWR.

... *snip* ... THAT is the real tactic of EQ.

It's not that hard to learn to work with others. I have zero problems fitting in wherever I go with my rogue. I know what my class can and can't do... and I have a good idea of what other classes do on a raid. Especially since the only thing I really have to do leaves me plenty of time to watch other people on the raid and listen to the chatter.

I was beta testing LDoN and used a beta buffed cleric at 65. Took me all of ten minutes to settle into the class once I sorted my spells and messed around with the AA's given to me. However that sorting the spell book took me two hours because it was horribly arranged and I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my spellbooks.

I ran through plenty of hairy situations in LDoN beta testing and managed to keep the groups alive and regain control of the situation. Very few people believed my only cleric experience was a level 34 cleric, which I'm still working on leveling up. Learning a class is not hard. Learning what mobs do and how to counter them is not hard either, but you have to be able to encounter those mobs... and the lame time sinks and key quests designed for hardcore gamers stop a majority of the games population.

I bet there are plenty of skilled players in EverQuest that are denied from hitting their true potential and seeing all of the game, just because they don't have the time to waste on the time sinks required to be "uber".

That's the only thing I really hate about EverQuest. Time sinks. I want to be able to log on for a few hours a couple nights a week and feel like I'm making some kind of progress on my character. LDoN might provide some of that, but it will still feel like a grind... just like AA's, the only other option for advancement. Well, that and plat farming to buy ornate, which might take til 2005.

Nevermind Aly, not even worth trying to explain it. You are obviously too narrow-minded.

Not narrow minded, just pissed off at the game design that favors only the hardcore gamers. Tired of ubers claiming they earned their gear through skill, when it was just the amount of time they spent at the computer and the ability to work with others.

I'd really like to see some way for even casual gamers to see a decent upgrade one or two times a month. Is that really too much to ask for? I never said I wanted Time quality loot for 10 hours a week. I just want some kind of upgrade beyond the crap gear from three expansions ago that sells for a couple hundred plat in the bazaar.

afk to Read Trevize's Strats~

ahah seriously Trevize is somewhat right, and somewhat wrong imo. guilds that come later usually have are able to get through encounters quicker because the general knowledge of the encounter is higher, i'll use the all popular RZ encounter as an example, the first few guilds (AL, FoH etc I dont remember exact order) hard to learn the encounter more or less on the own, the amount of general information known about the encounter is fairly low (insert SoE l337 beta infos jokes here)

Few weeks pass and the "Top guild (s)" of each server started to learn event, the knowledge is still pretty rare but usually theres a little infos going on, people know some about encounter, not too much, but its a little easier for these guilds then the first....

Few months pass, and the next big group of guilds come along, the guild may have a general idea of the encounter.... IE theres some guy that does big arrows that hurt then theres a splitter and finally two incarnations of a guy that spawns adds. (roughly) Still these guilds have to learn the nuances of the encounter, posistining etc....

then slowly pretty much the entire encounter (where the posisition, fatal mistakes (omg the stairs) special tricks (oops warp) becomes pretty well known from friends talking to eachother, people getting booted from guilds for whatever reason then joining competition, people quitting, top guilds not caring about it as much so more friend sharing etc etc, and people are able to really start to breeze through encounter, beating it in under 5 tries, which was unheard of for the first generation of guilds.

Of course most mobs are much more simpler and easy to learn...
AE DPS VS MGB's VS Time of fight, Avoiding timed ae's if poss, CH MT, some on RT if applicable, and really its more so about execution because the strat is painfully obvious, Give any knowledable raid leader basic infos on mob + lucy and they can pump out a strategy pretty easily

For most of the harder encounters in game (Emp RZ Xeg, prob some time stuff like VZ/TZ but i dont have expeirence with those) you gen erally need three things, the raid leader who knows the encounter very well, a general knowledge of the encounter for everyone, and of course, people who can follow directions (working well together on some mobs, some just following directions) as time goes on these encounters become signicently easier just because the first two things are made more accessible, changing the encounter to like most encounters, people follow directions they win.

Yes of course there are a few other variables that make encounters easier/harder, nerfing/buffing of events, spells becoming more common (when we first started doing RZ, runes were still a pretty big thing, now most guilds go against him with full spell books)

Originally posted by Aly
I ran through plenty of hairy situations in LDoN beta testing and managed to keep the groups alive and regain control of the situation. Very few people believed my only cleric experience was a level 34 cleric, which I'm still working on leveling up. Learning a class is not hard. Learning what mobs do and how to counter them is not hard either, but you have to be able to encounter those mobs... and the lame time sinks and key quests designed for hardcore gamers stop a majority of the games population.


Surprisingly there is skill in EQ. Being a rogue may be nothing more than standing behind a mob and pressing a button, yet if you look at the damage parses for our guild rogues some consistently do significantly more damage than others with very similar equipment. Seems to me to be a matter of getting in position quicker, being attentive to the mob moving around, knowing just how much damage you can do to avoid aggro, noticing when your buffs wear off. I don’t know exactly what a good rogue does differently to a bad rogue because I don’t play either (well I could probably play a bad rogue!), but the difference is there.
Sitting back and listening to the chatter means you are likely to be dropping DPS, which is a big problem for a class whose primary job on the raid is DPS.


Not narrow minded, just pissed off at the game design that favors only the hardcore gamers. Tired of ubers claiming they earned their gear through skill, when it was just the amount of time they spent at the computer and the ability to work with others.

Perhaps online gaming just isn’t for you. Time sinks of one form or another are going to be a feature of any online game and there’s no getting away from that. If you think that WoW or whatever new game comes out will have enough content for people to have something new every night then you are going to be very disappointed.

No matter what you are doing, once you have done it a couple of times it will feel like a grind. Killing Quarm was fun the first couple of times, but ever since then it has been just going through the motions. We do it in order that lots of the guild can get equipment upgrades, the same way you need to grind through LDoN in order to get equipment upgrades.


I'd really like to see some way for even casual gamers to see a decent upgrade one or two times a month. Is that really too much to ask for? I never said I wanted Time quality loot for 10 hours a week. I just want some kind of upgrade beyond the crap gear from three expansions ago that sells for a couple hundred plat in the bazaar.

You can upgrade your equipment even with your limited play time. There are FT augments you can buy for about 1000 adventure points (about 20 hours play time, so say 2 weeks for you) which will be a significant upgrade. Vengeance II items for melee types. There are focus affects which you can put where you want, and more basic hp/mana upgrades. And then you can buy equipment which, for some slots at least, is likely to be better than what you already have and has the possibility of being even more upgradable.
So you can get upgrades, just you seem fixated on getting the very best upgrades possible rather than realistically assessing your playtime and upgrading accordingly.
There was a problem before LDN came out in that people who play a lot but cant be online at the right times for raiding guilds couldn’t obtain significant upgrades. But this isn’t the case for any of the LDN equipment.

Originally posted by princess0fdiabl0
Bull****.

What do you think all that time is spent doing, waiting around for Quarm to die of old age?

LOL! Good one. Actually, the way I've seen some raids form up I could die of old age before they get going. And this is reason #68 I don't raid any more, I'm not as young as I once was.

EQ isn't about "strats" for a certain mob.

Heh! They sure helped me when I was doing the DFR. Trewayn, Jakle and I had a private board to post strats, maps and discuss our tactics. However, I realize I could only push that so far. Probably would have started failing on a regular basis getting into more difficult flagging raids.

I never would have beaten Behemoth or AD and probably not Grummus or RD on the first try without spoilers, regardless of how many raiders I had with me.

You all need to realize something though, playing a rogue on a raid is a lot different from playing a cleric, druid or anything else. You have one key to press every 5-6 seconds (backstab) another key to press every 6-9 seconds (evade). If everyone dies, you get to use another key (/corpse). If things turn to crap you can hit the escape macro if your weapon doesn't proc a dot. A timely heal from a rogue isn't going to save the MT. A rogue isn't going to snare a runner or deliver a nuke in the nick of time, or offtank (for more than 12 seconds). A rogue isn't going to do crowd control. Don't even talk to me about poisons, they simply don't work on raids outside of a few very rare occassions or mobs SOE forgot to nerf.

That's really about it for a rogue, so Aly's point of view is valid. I always wanted to do something, anything to be less bored, so I'd time the AE's and such or use EQWatcher to compared DPS, or surf the web on my other computer. But life as a rogue in a raid is really about as boring as it gets unless you've got something else, like leading the raid, to occupy your time.

But dammit, you guys hijacked my thread. I hate you all.

LOL! Good one. Actually, the way I've seen some raids form up I could die of old age before they get going. And this is reason #68 I don't raid any more, I'm not as young as I once was.

No wonder you hate raiding. We had that problem in my previous guild. Took 1-2 hours for every raid to start. Since I've been in my current guild though, rarely does it take more than 15 minutes max (except Sol Ro and the Rathe, and they can kiss my ass anyways).

Originally posted by Panamah


You all need to realize something though, playing a rogue on a raid ...*snip*

That's really about it for a rogue, so Aly's point of view is valid.

While her point of view is valid for a rogue yes, trying to point this out to a board of DRUIDS who have their hands full isnt gonna win you friends. Panamah you have brought alot of good to these boards, trying to relate things to druids, or at least general eq as we know it. Aly's issue is a class one, something that should be discussed on rogue boards where ppl can better understand. I really doubt she will find any sympathy here.


But dammit, you guys hijacked my thread. I hate you all.

sorry pan, couldnt help myself ;)

Surprisingly there is skill in EQ.

I think you're comparing someone of normal or good attention span to someone with lax attention spawn, watching TV or just not paying attention and saying one is more skilled. I'd probaby just say one of them is suffering from inattention. They probably all know which buttons to push and when to do it.

I will tell you, a rogue that parses their damage in real-time is going to do a lot better than one that doesn't. Having that feedback about how you are doing really incentivizes you to not space out.

Seems to me to be a matter of getting in position quicker, being attentive to the mob moving around, knowing just how much damage you can do to avoid aggro, noticing when your buffs wear off. I don’t know exactly what a good rogue does differently to a bad rogue because I don’t play either (well I could probably play a bad rogue!),

You could probably master a rogue in 6 hours of play. :p

Yes, it's a class problem.

*shrug* Maybe we just have weird rogues. They seem to be used a ton for all sorts of stuff. Much more than just DPS.

Other than dragging corpses, what?

*shrug* Maybe we just have weird rogues. They seem to be used a ton for all sorts of stuff. Much more than just DPS.

The opportunities I've had for pulling have been extremely rare, but I have used Escape to separate Vindi from his guards. :)

Lets see, there's disarming traps in Ssra, but our guild leader just ends up running through them to set them off. Scouting... generally maybe the first time we do an encounter, if the raid leader isn't too impatient to wait. Then there's pre-targetting targets for mez/charm and such for enchanters. Did that a couple times. Not exactly exciting or frequently done, in my experience.

It's probably a guild thing too. My guild it seems like just a few people take all the duties on themselves and don't delegate much at all. Reason #69 I don't like raiding much. I don't care to be such a passive participant.

I dunno. I've heard the same crap about druids at raids. Like for example, a druid recruit who came from a guild that was #1 on our server for the first 3 years of EQ, and she had NEVER been in a CH chain. I was blown away! It's not her fault, but what a waste of a druid. I find that most guilds don't get the full use out of all their classes like we tend to.

Others do, and they tend to be the ones that progress the fastest.

BTW, We couldn't have beaten Xegony without our Rogues, you can believe that or not ;)

EDIT: Just realized that came across like druids should always be in the CH chain, and that's not what I mean, but the ability to fill in whenever the clerics aren't online is a BIG bonus. Allows us to raid more and have to call less "off-days".

BTW, We couldn't have beaten Xegony without our Rogues, you can believe that or not

Gimme some examples of what amazing things your rogues do other than mashing backstab and evade and dragging corpses and doing a discipline once every half an hour. The rogues in my guild out of utter boredom coordinate their duelist discipline so we fire at the same time.

A lot of raids would fail without adequate dps.

I have to say, LDoN is pretty fun for a rogue. Scouting to find the boss/hostage while not hitting traps can be a bit of an adrenaline rush. Opening chests is amusing too.

Who LISTEN to a leader and know what to when he types something like "OFFENSE NOW" or "SANPIPER"

And my all time favorite raid command ... '"FLEE!"

I'm not making this up. Anyone in the upper tiers of Time will tell you that the FLEE command is very very important and if you don't follow it, you will cost slow down the raid.

With all the talk about LDoN, everyone pretty much knows that time in the current incarnation of EQ is more important than platnium.

Scouting Panamah ;) Our rogues have been a huge boon on atleast Coirnav and Xegony for scouting purpose. This is even if they never hit their backstab key. Hell, I'd go as far as to say 1 or 2 are too busy to hit autoattack at all.

They have the same amazing ability as monks!

That is they go afk whenever they want for hours at a time holding up raids.

That's a damn sweet ability.

Dodging AE's? I used to do the timing on the Ancients in ST. That was fun. I even found this little step that was perfect to hide under. And my timing was impecible.

I think Pana hit the nail on the head. I think most of what people call skill, is a natural ability to multi-task and a good dose of common sense or else ingrained responses to certain stimulus.

I've played my rogue for near three years now, minus some months while I took time off from EQ. Staying behind the mob is an automatic reflex. I can read a book and still pay enough attention to the screen to stay positioned properly and hitting my backstab key is automatic as well. I often find myself hitting the same hotkey for backstab on all my characters.

That's why I but Flying Kick there on my monk, Bash on my cleric, and Forage on my Druid. That way I don't do something stupid because I'm so used to hitting that hotkey while in melee combat.

I think that's what a lot of people call skill in EQ... and really... it's not that hard to do. Organizing a large raid is harder then playing any class except maybe a chanter or a bard. However, new tools introduced into the UI have made organizing raids even easier.

Now the only problem left that makes raiding harder, is getting people to listen. And that applies to everyone, regardless of class or level or guild.

Anyway... um... attempting to re-rail...

After looking at the stats, I think it will be easier and faster for me to just farm platinum and augment a set of ornate then it would be to get the LDoN armor, despite the slightly better stats. It just feels like it will take far too long to get a full set of gear from LDoN because you have to farm AP for the armor itself, and then farm some more for the augments. At least with Ornate you're getting almost all the stats at once and can use it in the meantime.

rogues own for the few weeks they are saving for ifirs then its afk ville =(

Originally posted by Aly
After looking at the stats, I think it will be easier and faster for me to just farm platinum and augment a set of ornate then it would be to get the LDoN armor, despite the slightly better stats. It just feels like it will take far too long to get a full set of gear from LDoN because you have to farm AP for the armor itself, and then farm some more for the augments. At least with Ornate you're getting almost all the stats at once and can use it in the meantime.

This may well be the case, but ornate armor doesnt cover anything more than the visible equipment slots. That leaves plenty of other equipment you will need to upgrade, and LDoN is a good source for this.

Definitely agreed Amonra but the non-visible LDoN items require huge investments to become even palatable to melee types. All of them boast one or more of hideous AC, poor HP, poor stats or lack of resists.

Fully augmented they can become very nice specialty pieces (say with +attack, decent HP) but still are fundamentally poor in comparison to PoP drops with augments. I have not found one yet without at least a fairly fatal flaw (in terms of the investement).

With a bit of further digging I found the following:

Originally posted by Aly
After looking at the stats, I think it will be easier and faster for me to just farm platinum and augment a set of ornate then it would be to get the LDoN armor,

Originally posted by Aly
it'd take me well over a hundred hours just to be able to buy Ornate Leggings and pay someone to do make the rings and such for the final combine.

and

Originally posted by Aly
I want to be able to log on for a few hours a couple nights a week and feel like I'm making some kind of progress on my character. LDoN might provide some of that, but it will still feel like a grind...

Originally posted by Aly
Right now I don't have LDoN

In the thread right next to this Aly explained she was cash-poor for the LDoN purchase but played the beta. Back to my usual lurking.

Originally posted by MadroneDorf
rogues own for the few weeks they are saving for ifirs then its afk ville =(

LOL! Too funny.

And my all time favorite raid command ... '"FLEE!"


I say "RUN AWAY - THE RABBIT GOT US"

Then we can at least dive into Monty Python jokes while we CR =P

Bannis is correct. Like I said, I had all of $30 to my name up until recently. I had a car that needed new tires, new shocks or springs (still working on paying for that one), rent due, and a few other bills as well.

Anyway, those problems are behind me for the most part now and I did purchase LDoN yesterday. LDoN is going to be a grind... but at least I can make some platinum while doing the adventures.

Group split was 230pp after a slaughter adventure. No other loot dropped and we finished the missions in 45 minutes. We were killing a mob every 30 seconds... it was boring as hell and I had to sneak into four different chat channels to keep my mind occupied since I don't have any new books to read.

The group ignored every chest, barrel, and non-aggro NPC in there. We went through only a small portion of the dungeon. The enchanter was doing all the pulling and always had a mob in camp. At least it was over quickly.

I'm not sure right now which would be the more boring grind. Plat farming for ornate or adventure grinding for AP. They're both boring grinds so it's just a matter of how long it takes to do one or the other.

And uh Pana... can we put the +2 damage augment on our Epic?

How again do Vex Thal Armor and Ornate Pop armor apply to casualy players? At least the ornate is obtainable, but it is ludicrously expensive and incredibly rare in the bazaar.

The good news with LDoN is while I am saving and earning PP to buy ornate PP (over 100k if you can find any on TP anyway), I can earn points for all the remaining pieces from LDoN, or augments for anything I ahve that is better than the LDoN gear.

So yes, LDoN is good for the casual player. We need to totally disregard anything refering to Vex Thal armor as it is not relevant to a casual player discussion. It may become relevant after we all get out LDoN gear :)

Originally posted by Aly
The group ignored every chest, barrel, and non-aggro NPC in there. We went through only a small portion of the dungeon. The enchanter was doing all the pulling and always had a mob in camp. At least it was over quickly.

I'm not sure right now which would be the more boring grind. Plat farming for ornate or adventure grinding for AP. They're both boring grinds so it's just a matter of how long it takes to do one or the other.

And uh Pana... can we put the +2 damage augment on our Epic? [/B]

You should've come back and done the chests on your own and kept the goodies for yourself. Most groups leave them until after they've won, then come back for them.

Nope, gotta have a Type 6 slot and Epic only has a type... 4 I think.

How again do Vex Thal Armor and Ornate Pop armor apply to casualy players? At least the ornate is obtainable, but it is ludicrously expensive and incredibly rare in the bazaar.

Well that's your opinion, Short-stuff. Most of the PoP ornate pieces are available in a single group, what isn't, you can buy. That's about as good as casual players could get. Even casual players can earn the money to buy stuff since money isn't limited to any particular zone in the game.

As far as comparing it against VT, it's a measure to see where SOE is going to allow casual players to go. Will they let casual players gain equipment equal to the level of a 3 year old expansion? That's the question I am asking. The answer looks like a "no", but it's not too far off. Really, there are NO complete sets of armors for casual players, outside of the newbie armors until LDoN. Kael, HoT, Thurgadin are all raiding armor (or were anyway).

Over on Safehouse there were a lot of uber guilders complaining vitriolically that casuals were getting armor better than EP with LDoN, after the nerfs I figured it was probably not even as good as Ornate, but I think the truth is it's just under VT quality pure statwise, but well under VT quality effect wise.

"Surprisingly there is skill in EQ. Being a rogue may be nothing more than standing behind a mob and pressing a button, yet if you look at the damage parses for our guild rogues some consistently do significantly more damage than others with very similar equipment. Seems to me to be a matter of getting in position quicker, being attentive to the mob moving around, knowing just how much damage you can do to avoid aggro, noticing when your buffs wear off. I don’t know exactly what a good rogue does differently to a bad rogue because I don’t play either (well I could probably play a bad rogue!), but the difference is there."

Not one thing you mentioned requires skill. It only requires that you pay attention while you're playing.

It might be just me. But isnt uh.. doing what you "suppost to be doing" better then the rest being skilled ?

If that isnt skilled ? how would you uh.. when would you say a rog is skilled ?

Well, what is a skill? It's experience and knowledge. Does it take skill to tie your shoes? I suppose, but knot (heh!) a whole lot. Does it take skill to perform a root canal? Well, yeah... it takes a hell of a lot of knowledge and lots of experience. One of these skills is a lot easier to master than the other. I'll give you two guesses.

So playing a rogue takes about the level of experience and knowledge of tying your shoe laces. Generally, there are exceptions like before SoS and doing tricky CR's or scouting stuff while not blowing yourself up in a trap. They are about the trickiest things a rogue has to deal with.

Nothing that someone with 6 hours of play and a bookmark to the safehouse can't figure out.

Stabbing something in the back isn't as easy as it seems. Mobs get pushed all over the place (hence all the foot screen shots or mobs up in the banister screen shots floating around). You need to stay at max range without going out of range. You need to know when to hit backstab and when to turn off auto-attack (meaning you're looking at your damage output and "feeling" your position on the aggro list).

How do I know all this? I botted a guildie's rogue for a flag one night. So I run behind the mob and hit auto-attack.

OMG! SPAM!

This rogue was hitting sooo fast that my hit window started to overheat. I hit backstab a couple of times and WHAM! Mithaniel Marr turns around and one rounds me.

To put it in a druid's perspective, it was like casting three or four Lighting Call's or Ignites every second with maybe an Ifir proc thrown in every now and again.

That was my one experience with playing a high end rogue. I think I'll stick to my 6sec nukes for damage. Cast nuke, send a tell to a friend, cast another nuke, laugh at friend's joke, cast iCH, read War and Peace. You know ... Easy stuff.

Well, you get your spam windows set up, make a couple of macros and you're all set. Yeah, there's lots of moving around at times but you're making it sound a whole lot harder than it really is. :p

Myabe if the rogue has the best ATK rating, best gear, and best dagger with great +bs% mods. I can hit autoattack and mash backstab over and over and never draw aggro from any paladin or sk over level 60. Nor from any warrior over 60 that has a couple decent weapons with good procs.

My rogue is very simple to play. Don't die. Do damage. Stay behind the mob. *shrugs* That's what my alts are for. Something better to do.

Kael, HoT, Thurgadin are all raiding armor (or were anyway).

I tried getting some HoT quest armor. But not being in a guild hurts those chances a lot... and when I was there and able to roll on the drops, chain never dropped. Just leather and plate with a rare silk.

I don't know about new armor. *sighs* It seems like a big waste of time to work on it. I never get hit in XP groups and I don't really raid. I just need some new weapons and such to increase my DPS some. I'm lucky if I average 100 dps in an xp group. Usually it sits around 70 to 80dps.

Well, one thing i'd like to remind you this is a multiplayer game. And you will need others to help you get stuff as well as others need you to get stuff.

If i am able to get my twink in gear better then some friends of me at 65. Then others can do it also. I'm not superman or whatever. I just have knowledge of the game and i'm skilled at what i do. And i don't mind sitting somewhere for a bit to get upgrades.

Like today. MM hard adv. Dropped this: Trueborn's Dagger of the Dark.
15/21 dagger with a +5% bs mod 15 str 10 cha agi 80 hp 50 mana and 7 DR MR PR. war / ran / bard / rog / bl

There is enough gear to get really. but you have to do some effort for it. Look at me. I'm a time druid. I havent had any upgrades since halfway july (my own choice tho, i'm holding out for an item). We don't all get something every raid or every week. It's just as rough as it is for you. We "compete" with 71 others.

The only thing when I see post of you Aly are just how bad your gear is, how hard it is to get better stuff and how boring a rog can be / is. still not sure on that one.
You say something about its a big waste of time to work on new gear. Offcourse if you feel like that you will never get better. I think i said this before but you should really look into another game. Something like AO where loot matters little.

It just feels like a big waste of time. Gear and XP should just happen naturally as you play, but instead the mass majority of people have driven themselves into this grind, grind, grind, raid, raid, raid like a frelling zombie, mindset.

I'm complaining about how hard it is for the rogue class to get better gear as a casual non-raider. Warriors and maybe monks will have the same problems. Almost every other class has something they can do to earn coin. I even tried selling poisons in the bazaar, but I can't solo for all the pieces needed for pop poisons and most groups wouldn't give me the poison component drops. Instead they sold it to vendors for group split.

So I am being forced to level up another character so I can have a class that can farm gems and small items to sell. I just wish I'd gotten to 45 before the KEI fix.